Clip

[k gledhill]

Nice clip Sean.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FvSd7G5PUgY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFvSd7G5PUgY

[GlennR]

Nice clip Sean.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FvSd7G5PUgY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFvSd7G5PUgY

Yep, great clip Sean.... definetly look you guys up when im in Belgium next year

[Sean66]

Hey thanks guys!

Just having fun and trying to go forward with the training methods.
I couldn't show everything in this clip, but we've been working on a lot of progressive sparring lately.

We start off with footwork sparring, where each person fights for the better position using footwork only. Then we move on to defensive sparring, with one guy attacking and the other using evasive footwork and parrying with jum, man, bong, etc. Then it's on to counter attacking and finally to light technical sparring. A couple times a week we also put on the protection and go a little harder, but always with improving technique in mind.

This progression can be done system internal (VT against VT) or with one person using techniques external to VT (hooks, overhands, low kicks, etc.)

Stress inoculation drills we do in scenario training.

[k gledhill]

The fact that the fighting doesn't collapse into kickboxing or lead leg chain punching should be noted. The use of angling and striking with elbow positions and mobility is well executed. Not to mention the method trained / drilled LOOKS like vt when fighting.

[Wayfaring]

Hey thanks guys!

Just having fun and trying to go forward with the training methods.
I couldn't show everything in this clip, but we've been working on a lot of progressive sparring lately.

We start off with footwork sparring, where each person fights for the better position using footwork only. Then we move on to defensive sparring, with one guy attacking and the other using evasive footwork and parrying with jum, man, bong, etc. Then it's on to counter attacking and finally to light technical sparring. A couple times a week we also put on the protection and go a little harder, but always with improving technique in mind.

This progression can be done system internal (VT against VT) or with one person using techniques external to VT (hooks, overhands, low kicks, etc.)

Stress inoculation drills we do in scenario training.

I like the energy in your clip. I get the overall impression that you are putting effort into bridging the gap from technique and skills to a live unrestricted environment sparring. I see modern tools used in sparring - 4-6oz gloves, some form of head protection. I'm not a huge fan of the encased head gear with the acrylic window, but I'm sure it works for getting reps in punching each other in the grill in a realistic manner that would be similar to an altercation.

I like your mixup of testing and sparring. 2x / week harder sparring, then lighter variations other times is a great mix.

I like the mixup of what you are working on in sparring. Defense only, footwork, counter attack, etc.

Can you break down your approach further beyond the one paragraph above? I think the detail would be helpful for everyone to see.

[Wayfaring]

The fact that the fighting doesn't collapse into kickboxing or lead leg chain punching should be noted. The use of angling and striking with elbow positions and mobility is well executed. Not to mention the method trained / drilled LOOKS like vt when fighting.

I agree. I think this happens because the student has a low stress roadmap to move from learning a technique to applying it live, with several steps in between broken down. There's a good mix of skill tests from restricted to live. There is the harder contact end of the spectrum involved so getting punched in the street won't make the student forget everything he learned.

[Sean66]

I agree. I think this happens because the student has a low stress roadmap to move from learning a technique to applying it live, with several steps in between broken down. There's a good mix of skill tests from restricted to live. There is the harder contact end of the spectrum involved so getting punched in the street won't make the student forget everything he learned.

You pretty much summed it up right there, Wayfaring.
Learning a technique starts with understanding the underlying body mechanics, not only intellectually but also kinesthetically. That's why we do alignment and posture testing to get the students to "feel" correct alignment right off the bat. Get them to feel what "structure" really is and how it is used to generate force.

The techniques (footwork included) are then drilled in all sorts of ways. Both solo (forms, wooden dummy, punching bags, tennis ball) and with a partner (dan chi, chi sao, lap sao, etc.). These drills are progressive. They start out very simple and then variables are slowly added. That way the student has the time to develop reflexes that allow them to use the same technique in different situations (to the extent that that's possible).

Lap sao is actually a great training tool and is a good way to segueway right into sparring. But then I like to break down the sparring in the manner that I already mentioned, working first on footwork only, then defense/evasion, countering and then full technical sparring. You can basically pick any aspect of your game to work on and isolate it in sparring.

What sort of specifics would you like to know?

[GlennR]

You pretty much summed it up right there, Wayfaring.
Learning a technique starts with understanding the underlying body mechanics, not only intellectually but also kinesthetically. That's why we do alignment and posture testing to get the students to "feel" correct alignment right off the bat. Get them to feel what "structure" really is and how it is used to generate force.

The techniques (footwork included) are then drilled in all sorts of ways. Both solo (forms, wooden dummy, punching bags, tennis ball) and with a partner (dan chi, chi sao, lap sao, etc.). These drills are progressive. They start out very simple and then variables are slowly added. That way the student has the time to develop reflexes that allow them to use the same technique in different situations (to the extent that that's possible).

Lap sao is actually a great training tool and is a good way to segueway right into sparring. But then I like to break down the sparring in the manner that I already mentioned, working first on footwork only, then defense/evasion, countering and then full technical sparring. You can basically pick any aspect of your game to work on and isolate it in sparring.

What sort of specifics would you like to know?

Actually, i particularly like the 1st 10 seconds Sean.
Structure testing is so important before moving onto sparring etc

[Sean66]

Thanks GlennR.

I also think that structure testing is important and helpful.
We've worked on this with Tim Cartmell during his recent workshop on Sun Taijiquan, and I've now integrated it into the VT training. Like I said it really gives beginners a "feel" for good alignment/structure.

But keeping good alignment/structure while moving is not always easy in the beginning. And that's why I do so many footwork drills. Set patterns, mirror drills, footwork shadow boxing, etc.

[wingchunIan]

Nice clip Sean.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FvSd7G5PUgY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFvSd7G5PUgY

cant get the clip to play. :(

[wingchunIan]

found the clip on youtube and got it to play. Nice production quality. I like the structure testing and the footwork drills. Also like the pad work.

[Kaybee]

cant get the clip to play. :(


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvSd7G5PUgY&feature=youtu.be


@Kevin: Very important point! ;)

[GlennR]

Thanks GlennR.

I also think that structure testing is important and helpful.
We've worked on this with Tim Cartmell during his recent workshop on Sun Taijiquan, and I've now integrated it into the VT training. Like I said it really gives beginners a "feel" for good alignment/structure.

But keeping good alignment/structure while moving is not always easy in the beginning. And that's why I do so many footwork drills. Set patterns, mirror drills, footwork shadow boxing, etc.

Funny, it was only 10 seconds wortj but the testing i saw is pretty much the same as TST's stuff......... nice

[LoneTiger108]

Hey thanks guys!

Just having fun and trying to go forward with the training methods.
I couldn't show everything in this clip, but we've been working on a lot of progressive sparring lately.

We start off with footwork sparring, where each person fights for the better position using footwork only. Then we move on to defensive sparring, with one guy attacking and the other using evasive footwork and parrying with jum, man, bong, etc. Then it's on to counter attacking and finally to light technical sparring. A couple times a week we also put on the protection and go a little harder, but always with improving technique in mind.

This progression can be done system internal (VT against VT) or with one person using techniques external to VT (hooks, overhands, low kicks, etc.)

Stress inoculation drills we do in scenario training.

Nice to see a broader explanation of what I have tried to say on other threads about how I prefer to train people for sparring (albeit I do not train guys or approve of competitions in their current/past form) although I call this kinda stuff 'interactive training' as it falls outside the typical Chisau touchy feely hands trends.

Now all you gotta do Sean is take the dudes to other non-V/Wing Ts/Chun schools and spar :D

[Frost]

Now all you gotta do Sean is take the dudes to other non-V/Wing Ts/Chun schools and spar :D

he already does :)

[LoneTiger108]

he already does :)

Wah! The full biscuit eh? :D

Must have you MMA guys in a frenzy?? Or are you just configuring your negative responses together in a huddle??

[Frost]

Wah! The full biscuit eh? :D

Must have you MMA guys in a frenzy?? Or are you just configuring your negative responses together in a huddle??

Ive already commentated before on some of seans clips, other than some of the clinch and ground work needing improvement (nothing you don’t see with newbies in that regard) I didn’t see anything wrong with it, as is no different than how my sifu trains, he goes to the local MMA gym as well as the BJJ and judo schools to test his grappling, and has placed guys in sparring get togethers and sanda comps before
Newsfalsh I don’t have an issue with anything Sean does, honestly its just your attitude I cant understand
:D

[LoneTiger108]

Newsfalsh I don’t have an issue with anything Sean does, honestly its just your attitude I cant understand
:D

That's a Newsflash?

Well, just in case you didn't understand I was actually aiming my comment at the 'entire' MMA brigade that has poisoned the Wing Chun section of the Forum dude... and no... as much as you may think that is just you it isn't ;)

[wingchunIan]

That's a Newsflash?

Well, just in case you didn't understand I was actually aiming my comment at the 'entire' MMA brigade that has poisoned the Wing Chun section of the Forum dude... and no... as much as you may think that is just you it isn't ;)

Spencer, why do you think the MMA enthusiasts have "poisoned" the Wing Chun section of the forum? I'd be interested in your POV. I quite welcome the perspective (aside from the billion page debates about BJJ that have happened recently!) as it adds far more value than some of the other perspectives on here

[Frost]

That's a Newsflash?

Well, just in case you didn't understand I was actually aiming my comment at the 'entire' MMA brigade that has poisoned the Wing Chun section of the Forum dude... and no... as much as you may think that is just you it isn't ;)

with the exception of dale franks in his various guises (and even he has a wing chun background) I am hard pressed to think of anyone who on the wing chun forum isn't a wing chun person, even if they do believe the terrible mma ways of training are good
who did you have in mind other than me ;)

[LoneTiger108]

I quite welcome the perspective (aside from the billion page debates about BJJ that have happened recently!) as it adds far more value than some of the other perspectives on here

Well you said it right here Ian...

Except I wouldn't say that their advice adds far more value than anyone else that posts here, unless you're aim for your training is solely competitive?

Bottom line... I am a Wing Chun practitioner through and through and I refuse to be belittled by people who have trained little or no Wing Chun just because I am loyal to one Sifu and do not feel the need to update or add to my curriculums with other systems.

Wing Chun for me was one of, if not the first MMA of China so I have everything I personally need already there in the system. I am understanding of the new trends and of course we can all learn from eachother (this goes without saying) but that is the key... learning from 'eachother'. Not being told that what we do is useless because we do not compete like them lol!

The MMA/Wing Chun exchange is far too one-sided and that tide I am sure will turn back in our favour when people get bored with all the macho nut measuring!

[JPinAZ]

Wah! The full biscuit eh? :D

Must have you MMA guys in a frenzy?? Or are you just configuring your negative responses together in a huddle??

attention-seeking troll bait. Why not just stick to the subject?

[LoneTiger108]

attention-seeking troll bait. Why not just stick to the subject?

Ha! My bait worked... Troll CAUGHT! :D :D :D

[JPinAZ]

Ha! My bait worked... Troll CAUGHT! :D :D :D

So you admit you ARE trolling. That's wonderful :rolleyes:

FWIW, I've trained WC for the last 12 years - so I'm not sure how I fall into the 'MMA guys' group you're desperately seeking attention from, but whatever.
But, I do think sparing outside the comfrots of the kwoon is a smart way to go for anyone of any art looking to broaden their skiillrange and test themselves. That's not an MMA thing, that's a common sense thing and something you obviously lack (BTW, you never did answer my questions on the other thread. It's ok, I know the answers anyway ;))

Anway, back to the subject, I think it's good that Seans guys realize this necessity by getting out and spar with other clubs! IMO, everyone should to this more.

[guy b.]

the MMA brigade has poisoned the Wing Chun section of the Forum dude

Very true. These fat gloating wannabes strut around like the big man and all of the remaining wing chun based posters appear to have developed Stockholm syndrome, constantly making apologies for the art they practice.

[Wayfaring]

Very true. These fat gloating wannabes strut around like the big man and all of the remaining wing chun based posters appear to have developed Stockholm syndrome, constantly making apologies for the art they practice.

You're right. People should feel free to practice the face dance without fear of being persecuted. After all, face dancers should be a protected class in society even if they aren't.

[LoneTiger108]

So you admit you ARE trolling. That's wonderful :rolleyes:

You see... trolls are anonymous and put words into peoples mouths and rewrite entire posts to spew whatever it is that takes their fancy that day... and that's is so more you than me dude lol!


FWIW, I've trained WC for the last 12 years - so I'm not sure how I fall into the 'MMA guys' group you're desperately seeking attention from, but whatever.

There you go again! Did I mention any names? No. But, if the shoe fits?? Even 12 years eating Chop Suey doesn't mean you know what Charsiu Pork tastes like :D


Anway, back to the subject, I think it's good that Seans guys realize this necessity by getting out and spar with other clubs! IMO, everyone should to this more.

Oh I agree with you there.

IF what you want to do is train like that it's all fine. BUT I like the fact that he utilizes his Wing Chun training and spars with varied purposes, to develop 'different skills' slowly and allow his guys to train in a safe and (what looks like) enjoyable environment. Competitive? I see more people working together towards a goal rather than the win win mentality which is very cool IMHO and how I would like to see our system develop.

You know I am seeing a trend here, and for some reason it is based on me not agreeing with 'fighting' fellow practitioners or others with my art, yet I have never said I do not like to spar or train to fight. Fighting for me though is 'real' so if you don't know how dirty Wing Chun actually is you will not understand how we fight. I'm a pretty small guy too so the system resonates with me personally on many levels.

I do not like the competition arena, or points based Chisau I generally see (including the clips) because I have never heard from anyone who has done this in the past say anything positive that came out from it all. It divides the Wing Chun family and shows pretty low level skill all the time so it fuels other MAs argument that we are all cr4p too.

And just in case nobody understands me... Wing Chun specializes in, what we call today, sparring!! It was just never called that before the 1950s and the introduction of Sansau/Sanda and Wushu Dulian.

Fighting in them days was a 'fight to the death'! And believe me, from what I can gather from my own research and many others, is that Wing Chun held it's own in them days because ultimately that is what Martial Arts was about back then.

As someone once told me, "Give any BJJ man, boxer or kickboxer a pole or blade and watch me whoop their a$$!!"

[guy b.]

FWIW, I've trained WC for the last 12 years - so I'm not sure how I fall into the 'MMA guys' group you're desperately seeking attention from, but whatever.

Stockholm syndrome

[LoneTiger108]

Stockholm syndrome

Seriously made me laugh dude :D :eek:

[Sean66]

What happened to the thread?

It's about the clip of my students that Kevin originally posted, right?

Well, I for one have learned a lot (and continue to learn) from my colleagues and friends in the mma scene. We can learn a lot from them, especially when it comes to modern training methods.

[JPinAZ]

You see... trolls are anonymous and put words into peoples mouths and rewrite entire posts to spew whatever it is that takes their fancy that day... and that's is so more you than me dude lol!

I'm far from anonymous - I train and teach HFY in AZ and my initials are JP, hense my username. I'm easy to find. Heck, you had no problem finding me and then trying to use someone else's website to try and cut down what I do on another thread like a good little stalker. Funny, once I pointed this out, you stopped posting on that thread ;)


Oh I agree with you there.

IF what you want to do is train like that it's all fine. BUT I like the fact that he utilizes his Wing Chun training and spars with varied purposes, to develop 'different skills' slowly and allow his guys to train in a safe and (what looks like) enjoyable environment. Competitive? I see more people working together towards a goal rather than the win win mentality which is very cool IMHO and how I would like to see our system develop.

Not taking anything away from Sean's clip or how his group trainings, but what I see in the clip is very light contact sparing at most. I'm guessing it's part of a progressive sparring/training platform and doesn't stop with just what's in the clip. (hopefuly he can verify this)

But any time you realisticly test your skills with more live energy harder contact sparring, it is going to be somewhat competitive - and should be - if you're trying to push someone to their limits and find places for improvements. Otherwise it's either light contact cooperative drilling (light sparring), fixed drills - both of which are necessary - or you're just plain LARPing. BTW, you can still be working together to build each other's skills and toward the same goal in a competitve environment and without points. It's really shocking you can't see this simple fact.



You know I am seeing a trend here, and for some reason it is based on me not agreeing with 'fighting' fellow practitioners or others with my art, yet I have never said I do not like to spar or train to fight. Fighting for me though is 'real' so if you don't know how dirty Wing Chun actually is you will not understand how we fight. I'm a pretty small guy too so the system resonates with me personally on many levels.

I do not like the competition arena, or points based Chisau I generally see (including the clips) because I have never heard from anyone who has done this in the past say anything positive that came out from it all. It divides the Wing Chun family and shows pretty low level skill all the time so it fuels other MAs argument that we are all cr4p too.

And just in case nobody understands me... Wing Chun specializes in, what we call today, sparring!! It was just never called that before the 1950s and the introduction of Sansau/Sanda and Wushu Dulian.

Fighting in them days was a 'fight to the death'! And believe me, from what I can gather from my own research and many others, is that Wing Chun held it's own in them days because ultimately that is what Martial Arts was about back then.

As someone once told me, "Give any BJJ man, boxer or kickboxer a pole or blade and watch me whoop their a$$!!"

You say you "never said I do not like to spar or train to fight."
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, so can you give some examples of how you train to fight in a normal class? Is it more than fixed drills and chi sau?
Also, so I understand you, what is the difference between sparring vs 'fighting'?
And, what do you consider 'training to fight' as you put it?
--------------------------------
What they did in the old days really means nothing now. What matters is what WE do now as part of OUR traingn. If someone isn't testing thier art as part of their training (and that doesn't mean only thru comps and tourneys), yet still totes on about what the ancestors did, it could be viewed as LARPing, living tin the past or plain old nutriding.

And IMO, WC specializes in fighting, not sparring. And IMO, while we all do WC, we're not all one big family. This forum is solid proof of that. ;)

[Sean66]

Not taking anything away from Sean's clip or how his group trainings, but what I see in the clip is very light contact sparing at most. I'm guessing it's part of a progressive sparring/training platform and doesn't stop with just what's in the clip. (hopefuly he can verify this)

Well, what's shown in the clip is more than just "very light". Even at the levels shown in the clip there are split lips and bloody noses on a regular basis. But, yes, we do go at it harder once a week and it does become more competitive at this level. Of course, the harder the sparring, the sloppier the technique. Hence the importance of the whole progression as a feedback loop.

[LoneTiger108]

Wah! I'm beginning to see why this forum is losing direction...


I'm far from anonymous - I train and teach HFY in AZ and my initials are JP, hense my username. I'm easy to find. Heck, you had no problem finding me and then trying to use someone else's website to try and cut down what I do on another thread like a good little stalker. Funny, once I pointed this out, you stopped posting on that thread ;)

What's funny is that I stopped posting on that thread coz I was bored of repeating myself. But don't worry, I won't do that here.

Weird how you think I'm stalking you just because I wanted to see where you were from and what may have inspired you to become such a MMA jock because from my experience with HFY guys here, they have been less about the fight and more about the culture.


BTW, you can still be working together to build each other's skills and toward the same goal in a competitve environment and without points. It's really shocking you can't see this simple fact.

Competition is for sports junkies my friend and if you can't see that there is no place for it in interactive Wing Chun practise like Chisau (which fme is a TEACHING TOOL) then you're further down the chop suey rabbitt hole than I first thought :rolleyes: You say you teach HFY?


You say you "never said I do not like to spar or train to fight."
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, so can you give some examples of how you train to fight in a normal class? Is it more than fixed drills and chi sau?
Also, so I understand you, what is the difference between sparring vs 'fighting'?
And, what do you consider 'training to fight' as you put it?

Yep! You are misunderstanding me. But nice try asking me silly questions... again!


And IMO, WC specializes in fighting, not sparring. And IMO, while we all do WC, we're not all one big family. This forum is solid proof of that. ;)

Further evidence that it may actually be people like you that will continue to divide the 'family' (even though the word these days has no meaning to many). Luckily I don't have such a narrow view about unity, but then I do not judge the entire Wing Chun community by a little old forum online that seems to be a playground for enthusiasts like yourself who may not even have a clue about what Wing Chun is as far as I can tell... I didn't see a 'JP' in any 'official' HFY list either? http://www.hungfayiwingchunpai.com/hungfakwoons.html

Or is this group not connected to you?? If so, HFY has it's own problems which do not need to spread into the wider community...

[GlennR]

Wah! I'm beginning to see why this forum is losing direction...


And what "direction" should it go Spencer?
Perhaps your idea of what it should be?


What's funny is that I stopped posting on that thread coz I was bored of repeating myself. But don't worry, I won't do that here.

We're all bored with you repeating yourself so its unanimous.... great, we all agree on something


Weird how you think I'm stalking you just because I wanted to see where you were from and what may have inspired you to become such a MMA jock because from my experience with HFY guys here, they have been less about the fight and more about the culture.

Mate, are you so insecure about MMA that you have to associate it with 'jock"?
Does that make you feel intellectually superior?


Competition is for sports junkies my friend and if you can't see that there is no place for it in interactive Wing Chun practise like Chisau (which fme is a TEACHING TOOL) then you're further down the chop suey rabbitt hole than I first thought :rolleyes: You say you teach HFY?

No, competition is for people who want to compete..... why the junkie label?



Further evidence that it may actually be people like you that will continue to divide the 'family' (even though the word these days has no meaning to many). Luckily I don't have such a narrow view about unity, but then I do not judge the entire Wing Chun community by a little old forum online that seems to be a playground for enthusiasts like yourself who may not even have a clue about what Wing Chun is as far as I can tell... I didn't see a 'JP' in any 'official' HFY list either? http://www.hungfayiwingchunpai.com/hungfakwoons.html


Divide the family? What family?
We have a hobby in common........ thats it


Or is this group not connected to you?? If so, HFY has it's own problems which do not need to spread into the wider community...

Go son, stir that pot!

[wingchunIan]

I didn't see a 'JP' in any 'official' HFY list either? http://www.hungfayiwingchunpai.com/hungfakwoons.html

Or is this group not connected to you?? If so, HFY has it's own problems which do not need to spread into the wider community...

Bit of a silly post Spencer, you should know well enough that even within lineages there are different organisations. It is true of my own lineage, WSL, and your own Lee Shing lineage to cite just a few so why should HFY be any different. :(

[LoneTiger108]

Bit of a silly post Spencer, you should know well enough that even within lineages there are different organisations. It is true of my own lineage, WSL, and your own Lee Shing lineage to cite just a few so why should HFY be any different. :(

Silly post?

I see so many of those on here and you want to pull me up for something like this when 'JP' says he is a Teacher of HFY yet there is no evidence to support this?

And for him to old his anti-family view seemed even stranger considering this rhetoric that is on one of the HFY banners:

http://www.hungfakwoon.com/NewStuff.htm

"In all directions, there is one family"

[LoneTiger108]

And what "direction" should it go Spencer?
Perhaps your idea of what it should be?

Is a unified direction too much to ask?


Mate, are you so insecure about MMA that you have to associate it with 'jock"?
Does that make you feel intellectually superior?

Nope. It was my heartfelt attempt at trying to talk a language this dude from AZ might understand... but no worries as it sounds like he has his jock friends on here to protect him lol!


No, competition is for people who want to compete..... why the junkie label?

And tell me why you want to compete? What do you gain from competing with Wing Chun?

Oh wait... try responding on my own thread if you can be bothered.


Divide the family? What family?
We have a hobby in common........ thats it

Okay Hobby Boy... ;)

[LoneTiger108]

What happened to the thread?

It's about the clip of my students that Kevin originally posted, right?

Well, I for one have learned a lot (and continue to learn) from my colleagues and friends in the mma scene. We can learn a lot from them, especially when it comes to modern training methods.

Sorry to draw the attention away from your clip Sean... but I have tried to steer people onto my own thread to discuss all this stuff about competitive Wing Chun etc but they just seem to prefer invading this thread... and we all know I will just continue to ramble on and on when I have the free-time like I have had in the last few days...

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65959

[JPinAZ]

Silly post?

Blah Bla Blah
http://www.hungfakwoon.com/NewStuff.htm

"In all directions, there is one family"

Jeebus you're a moron. While yes, all WC comes from the same source, and in that regard, I you can say that we are all 'one family', but that's not what that quote is about. And my one family comment was in regards to all the various WC lineages we see today, as well as all the in-fighting you see between them as well as inside the individual branches.


Weird how you think I'm stalking you just because I wanted to see where you were from and what may have inspired you to become such a MMA jock because from my experience with HFY guys here, they have been less about the fight and more about the culture.

Again, just more side-tracking and diversion. While culture plays an important part in HFY lineage, if you think HFY guys aren't concerned about being able to fight, you really are clueless.

But then, what does this have to do with the thread?


Competition is for sports junkies my friend and if you can't see that there is no place for it in interactive Wing Chun practise like Chisau (which fme is a TEACHING TOOL) then you're further down the chop suey rabbitt hole than I first thought :rolleyes: You say you teach HFY?

It's sad that is all you see competition as being. But you're welcome to your view, however naive. Once again, I don't advocate chi sau comps and even stated to you I've judged one and will never do it again. Waste of time. But you already know this, so the above is just trolling.


Blag Blah Blagh.... I didn't see a 'JP' in any 'official' HFY list either? http://www.hungfayiwingchunpai.com/hungfakwoons.html

Or is this group not connected to you?? blah blah blah...

Look moron, I just told you in another post that JP were my initials, so why would you be stupid enough to search for a JP? My name's Jonathan, which I've used many times here. Again, nothing to hide. Let it go already

And since you are such a horribly stupid investigator, my 'club' is listed on that page. And, I do include progressive sparing as part of my skill testing methods. It's not an MMA thing, it's a common sense training thing - something you obviously don't have a clue about.

But really, what does ANY of this have to do with Sean's clip? Or sparring, or testing your art? It doesn't. So let it go already, I'm sure you've dragged the thread down enough, so dont' expect any more replies from me unless it's related to the thread.

[JPinAZ]

Bit of a silly post Spencer, you should know well enough that even within lineages there are different organisations. It is true of my own lineage, WSL, and your own Lee Shing lineage to cite just a few so why should HFY be any different. :(

Silly indeed ;)
Just to be clear, there is only one HFY organisation.

[JPinAZ]

Well, what's shown in the clip is more than just "very light". Even at the levels shown in the clip there are split lips and bloody noses on a regular basis. But, yes, we do go at it harder once a week and it does become more competitive at this level. Of course, the harder the sparring, the sloppier the technique. Hence the importance of the whole progression as a feedback loop.

Thank you for sharing - So who gets the fun job of cleaning up all the blood after classes? ;)

And sorry someone turned this thread into a weird JP witch hunt - I won't give this guy any more energy on this thread..

[k gledhill]

Sean's got a good idea and is working it. The footwork is not linear back and forth like lemmings charging a cliff edge. Bag and pad work are essential for 100% power release to damage. Damage I reserve for those who want to really do me damage. Sparring partners aren't trying to hospitalize you. When I read guys complaining about " light contact " make it more real, real is brain damage, detached retinas, missing teeth, fractures.
Btw this threads derailment is why I usually delete the whole thing. No attempts to edit or moderate as usual.

[JPinAZ]

When I read guys complaining about " light contact " make it more real, real is brain damage, detached retinas, missing teeth, fractures.


Since I am one of the people that mentioned 'light contact' on this thread, it was in no way a complaint - just to be clear. It looks like his guys are working hard and putting in the efforts needed to build good fighting skill and I have no problems with what Sean's doing in regards to his own goals and methods, even if I feel some of it viotaltes what I understand of WC.

[guy b.]

When I read guys complaining about " light contact " make it more real, real is brain damage, detached retinas, missing teeth, fractures.
Btw this threads derailment is why I usually delete the whole thing. No attempts to edit or moderate as usual.

Very true Kev, especially without gloves. These people don't actually train I think.

[Sean66]

Hey JPinAZ,

Just out of curiosity, what violates your understanding of WC?
Don't worry, I won't take it personally and go off on ya, just wanting to get your perspective.

[JPinAZ]

Hey JPinAZ,

Just out of curiosity, what violates your understanding of WC?
Don't worry, I won't take it personally and go off on ya, just wanting to get your perspective.

I was going to comment that I would say sometimes your guys give up the line to angle unecessarily or stepping back when not needed. But out of fairness I rewatched the clip and I now take that statement back :)
When I see this done, it's mostly during mitt/pad work, so it could be that the guys doing this might be just be giving stimulus to their partners. For the most part, your guys actually stand their ground when receiving attacks and divert the incoming attack vs. sidestepping if they can (this is seen most clearly when they have the headgear & gloves on).

The only thing I might say is they sometimes appear to lean when they are slicing an angle and countering. I'd just say maybe have them take a little step vs. leaning. One example is guy in black polo shirt on the right @0:52, and then the guy in the sleeveless black shirt just after that. So from a self centerline principle, I personally would try to avoid the bob/weave. But really, it's a small thing, and at least they are sparring!

Otherwise, I stand corrected and good job!

[Sean66]

Thanks for the feedback JPinAZ!

Yes, the leaning I had noticed as well, and I agree that taking a step to cut in more is better.
One thing I noticed is that they too frequently pull back their punches when they are already "in" and should be working point to point. Maybe it's a result of the pad-work, I don't know, but it's something we have to work on.

[k gledhill]

Thanks for the feedback JPinAZ!

Yes, the leaning I had noticed as well, and I agree that taking a step to cut in more is better.
One thing I noticed is that they too frequently pull back their punches when they are already "in" and should be working point to point. Maybe it's a result of the pad-work, I don't know, but it's something we have to work on.

How do you mean " pull back, ...."

[JPinAZ]

Thanks for the feedback JPinAZ!

Yes, the leaning I had noticed as well, and I agree that taking a step to cut in more is better.
One thing I noticed is that they too frequently pull back their punches when they are already "in" and should be working point to point. Maybe it's a result of the pad-work, I don't know, but it's something we have to work on.

This could be a result of not enough fwd intent thru the whole body? maybe check to see if they are leaning backwards when entering in, this would be a good indicator they are again giving up self centerline.

But that's the great thing about filming guys training - it's a perfect tool to analyse what's going on and to help point out places for improvement.

[k gledhill]

As my old sifu would say observing and coaching, " the third person see's clearest " , we are all the third party.

[wingchunIan]

Thanks for the feedback JPinAZ!

Yes, the leaning I had noticed as well, and I agree that taking a step to cut in more is better.
One thing I noticed is that they too frequently pull back their punches when they are already "in" and should be working point to point. Maybe it's a result of the pad-work, I don't know, but it's something we have to work on.

Sean, if they were perfect they wouldn't need you:D

[Kymus]

Hey thanks guys!

Just having fun and trying to go forward with the training methods.
I couldn't show everything in this clip, but we've been working on a lot of progressive sparring lately.

We start off with footwork sparring, where each person fights for the better position using footwork only. Then we move on to defensive sparring, with one guy attacking and the other using evasive footwork and parrying with jum, man, bong, etc. Then it's on to counter attacking and finally to light technical sparring. A couple times a week we also put on the protection and go a little harder, but always with improving technique in mind.

This progression can be done system internal (VT against VT) or with one person using techniques external to VT (hooks, overhands, low kicks, etc.)

Stress inoculation drills we do in scenario training.

These are things that are desperately needed in more schools; not just TCMA. I've started to do similar exercises with the couple of guys I teach JKD and Muay Thai to.

I do attack vs defense, kick vs punch, and now I'm trying to experiment with grappling (qinna/shuai jiao) vs striking. I also do a specialized attack vs defense drill involving other students surrounding the two sparring and when the defense person get's to the edge, he gets thrown back in; even if that means he gets thrown in to the attacker.

What's your experience been with the headgeart you use? I've read about risks of broken noses from the metal caged helmets caving inward. Also, what's trapping like with those gloves? Is there much inhibition?

[Sean66]

Hi Kev,

They just have to work more "point to point" in the in-fight, smothering the other guys position with good elbow work. Philipp is a master at this, and Michael as well. Once they are "in" they never let the other guy get a chance to counter-attack - never leave any spaces. It's lat sau jik chung all the way, baby!

@Kymus
Yes, there are some problems with the caged headgear. I've had people hurt their hands on them by hitting them, despite the gloves. I've been cut pretty bad over the eye from the cage banging against my face...but these accidents are pretty rare. The bigger problems are limited vision and over confidence because you know you are protected. However, having said that, if you get a couple of hard blows on the caged headgear it's almost worse than without it...

Personally I prefer the headgear without a grill.

The gloves don't hinder us technically in any significant way.

[Kymus]

Thanks for the input, Sean!

Yeah, I asked another dude about the face shields (full face) and he said that while they don't fog up, you do feel claustophobic. I'd probably go for the no-shield/cage, like you.

Indeed armour makes people lose the fear of being hit. I see this most often is Escrima. But it's a delicate balancing act to find what is both practical and safe :(.

[Sean66]

But it's a delicate balancing act to find what is both practical and safe

That's for sure. But always err on the side of safety. As long as you understand the limitations of the equipment and the drill, you'll still get a lot out of your sparring and keep everyone as safe as possible.

[k gledhill]

Hi Kev,

They just have to work more "point to point" in the in-fight, smothering the other guys position with good elbow work. Philipp is a master at this, and Michael as well. Once they are "in" they never let the other guy get a chance to counter-attack - never leave any spaces. It's lat sau jik chung all the way, baby!

@Kymus
Yes, there are some problems with the caged headgear. I've had people hurt their hands on them by hitting them, despite the gloves. I've been cut pretty bad over the eye from the cage banging against my face...but these accidents are pretty rare. The bigger problems are limited vision and over confidence because you know you are protected. However, having said that, if you get a couple of hard blows on the caged headgear it's almost worse than without it...

Personally I prefer the headgear without a grill.

The gloves don't hinder us technically in any significant way.


I follow you, yes I overcome this as Philipp does by countering them as they withdraw the hand or just show how easy it is to reface after all that entry work. Shut them down ; )