What if,

[Kellen Bassette]

in the long, long ago...forms were originally more like a Wai Ku than a fundamental method of martial training?

In Mongolian Bokh competitors perform a dance before they wrestle. Okinawa had folk dances with martial elements that predate Karate. Nak Muay perform their Wai Ku before a fight. It seems like most Asian martial arts have a dance element.

So is it possible the origin of forms training may have been more of a ritual than we let on? Could the current popular thinking about this tradition be completely misconstrued?

Just throwing it out there....

[bawang]

do u wanna know the traditional kung fu name for forms bro

[Kellen Bassette]

do u wanna know the traditional kung fu name for forms bro

You know i do.

[bawang]

forms is dance. the traditional chinese name for forms is dance.

have i torn apart your reality yet bro

[Kellen Bassette]

forms is dance. the traditional chinese name for forms is dance.

have i torn apart your reality yet bro

lol..I expected as much....

What brought me to this was seeing Yi Long fight. He would do a traditional form before his kickboxing matches. It reminded me a lot of the Thai's Wai Ku.

Made me think maybe this was the original intent....back when Kung Fu people fought.

[Kellen Bassette]

have i torn apart your reality yet bro

You shattered my illusions long ago....

[bawang]

lol..I expected as much....

What brought me to this was seeing Yi Long fight. He would do a traditional form before his kickboxing matches. It reminded me a lot of the Thai's Wai Ku.

Made me think maybe this was the original intent....back when Kung Fu people fought.

all forms of entertainment were banned in the ming army except forms. thats why forms exploded in the ming dynasty.

[Kellen Bassette]

ALL forms of entertainment were banned in the ming army except forms.

Do you know if there is any evidence to complex form training prior to the Ming? It seems like the 15th Century really kicked off the proliferation of taolu....

[bawang]

Do you know if there is any evidence to complex form training prior to the Ming? It seems like the 15th Century really kicked off the proliferation of taolu....

what do u mean by "complex"

[YouKnowWho]

Anybody can make up forms. If you are 70 years old with some reputation, you just made up a form last night, nobody will question the origon of your form. You can always say that you have learned that from from your father.

The day that you have found out that you can make forms better than most of the TCMA forms, the day that you will lose faith in your TCMA forms. If you can add

- right jab, left cross, right hook, left uppercut combo,
- front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick combo,
- front cut, leg lift, shin bite combo,
- ...

into the new form that you have just created, you have add a lot of value into whatever the style that you have trained.

[Kellen Bassette]

Anybody can make up forms.

It seems like each generation a teacher creates a form, if not several, to add to his system...having one form for a school/style makes sense to me, for tradition, preservation of techniques, marking a system, ect...having 50 or 60 forms doesn't make much sense....

[Kellen Bassette]

what do u mean by "complex"

lengthy, complicated, intricate movements...I'm sure forms have always existed in the sense of linking a few moves together to practice as a drill...(like John mentioned,) but when did jab-cross-round kick turn into Da Hong Quan?

[YouKnowWho]

When you create a form, you have to ask yourself the following questiions:

- Do I just re-arrange different moves from forms in my system?
- Have I added anything new?
- Will I create "burden" for the future generation (one more form to learn)?
- ...

[Kellen Bassette]

When you create a form, you have to ask yourself the following questiions:

- Do I just re-arrange different moves from forms in my system?
- Have I added anything new?
- Will I create "burden" for the future generation (one more form to learn)?
- ...

My Go Ju Ryu Shihan created several basic kata. I never understood a need to have more than one basic kata. He also created several "bridging kata" combining techniques from a lower level kata with techniques of a higher kata. This also made no sense to me. You were just practicing a rearrangement of the same moves.

In Shaolin there are hundreds of forms, but there is so much redundancy, it seems forms were just created for the sake of creating forms.

I think there is an idea that everything you learned from your shifu must be passed on and then whatever you add gets passed on, along with some of the things you absorbed from other systems. In the end it is, as you say, a burden.

To much time practicing the same thing in different sequences and not focusing on conditioning or developing fighting skill.

[bawang]

lengthy, complicated, intricate movements...I'm sure forms have always existed in the sense of linking a few moves together to practice as a drill...(like John mentioned,) but when did jab-cross-round kick turn into Da Hong Quan?

all forms of entertainment were banned in the ming army except forms. so forms became more complicated in the 1550s, since it became a major form of entertainment.

folk stories also say in the 1700s there was another wave of flowery kung fu, but there is no written history to prove it.

[-N-]

If you can add

- right jab, left cross, right hook, left uppercut combo.

Jiang Hao Quan did that. It was a kind of trademark signature of his.

[YouKnowWho]

same thing in different sequences ...

This can be an interest discussion.

When you try to get your opponent's right leading leg, he pulls that leg back, what will you do next? You can

- inner hook,
- outer hook,
- sweep,
- bite,
- spring,
- twist,
- lift,
- ...

his left leg,.

Will you train all different combos even if the "single leg" is in different sequence (use single leg to set up next move)? If you create your form, will you include all combos or just 1 combo?

[-N-]

It seems like each generation a teacher creates a form, if not several, to add to his system....

Not always the case.

Brendan Lai said he had 25 forms, his teacher had 50, and his teacher's teacher had 100.

In his latter years, Brendan Lai still taught forms, but they were not the main focus of his teaching.

[bawang]

people dont pay money to watch somebody do jab, cross, uppercut.

old shaolin kung fu has drills like 24 jabs 36 hooks. a modern shaolin bald donkey can "play" his qixingquan 1000 times, hes not gonna "find" it.

[YouKnowWho]

the more flashy your form, the more coins people give you.

That was while the "五凤齐飞(Wu Feng Qi Feo) - 5 phoenix fly in the sky" was created. In 3 jumping kicks, you use your hands to hit on your body 5 times as if you carry the drum beating with your body.

[bawang]

That was while the "五凤齐飞(Wu Feng Qi Feo) - 5 phoenix fly in the sky" was created. In 3 jumping kicks, you use your hands to hit on your body 5 times as if you carry the drum beating with your body.

when i trained all these flowery moves, i had no faith in kung fu. when i stopped training them, i believe in kung fu.

[YouKnowWho]

when i trained all these flowery moves, i had no faith in kung fu. when i stopped training them, i believe in kung fu.

If you can still do triple jumping kick "五凤齐飞(Wu Feng Qi Feo) - 5 phoenix fly in the sky" when you are 80 years old, you know the change that you may live through your 90 will be high.

The older you are, ther harder that you can jump. If you jump everyday, your health will be good.

[Lucas]

if you read the records of the grand historian, there are sword dances in there. the trick of it in this case though, is that you have an accomplished warrior proven in battle performing a dance of his battle sword before (insert person to be impressed/entertained).

also, if you read Confucius:

'According to the record in “the School Sayings of Confucius”, Zi Lu, the student of Confucius, 'ever waved the sword and danced before Confucius' that is 2500 years ago and the oldest record of the sword dance.

[RenDaHai]

Even wrathful Achillies was noted as performing an excellent Pyrrhic dance (the ancient greek war dance loved by the spartans).


You have to question the nature of all of our training.

If you put a group of people together and tell them to fight all day, every day, and teach them nothing, how long before they evolve their own Martial Art? Very fast indeed. Even better this way as they do not learn by force but realise themselves, then this knowledge is never lost.

After a short time of training in this manner they think of technique. But if as a child they learned the TaoLu, the forms, even if never being told their application, suddenly they understand them, and discover their meaning. Unconsciously they replicate them. This is the method of teaching by suggestion instead of force.

The good teacher provides the opportunity for the self discovery of knowledge.

[Kellen Bassette]

all forms of entertainment were banned in the ming army except forms. so forms became more complicated in the 1550s, since it became a major form of entertainment.

folk stories also say in the 1700s there was another wave of flowery kung fu, but there is no written history to prove it.

When are you going to write a serious paper and quote all your sources?

You come up with a lot of stuff that we don't see elsewhere on English sites...if you got the pertinent documents arranged cohesively, I think that would be a pretty big service to Kung Fu in the English speaking world.

[Kellen Bassette]

if you read the records of the grand historian, there are sword dances in there. the trick of it in this case though, is that you have an accomplished warrior proven in battle performing a dance of his battle sword before (insert person to be impressed/entertained).


This seems to be a very pervasive Old World tradition. Probably New World as well, if I were to take the time to read up on our indigenous warriors.

My question is, should people who don't go to battle perform the war dance? Would the swordsman be taken seriously had he only practiced his dance and never his craft?

[Kellen Bassette]

The good teacher provides the opportunity for the self discovery of knowledge.

I agree with this. But the student must be put into a situation where self discovery is inevitable.

Think Luke Skywalker in the swamp. :cool:

[MightyB]

Forms come from an era of less distractions. We have xBox, a million channels, good movies, restaurants, and internet porn. Plus a million recreational activities to choose and participate in within minutes of where we live.

They didn't have that in the not so way back. I like to think of forms as like a step up challenge dance between martial artists. Part martial, part showing off machismo.

[Kymus]

When are you going to write a serious paper and quote all your sources?

You come up with a lot of stuff that we don't see elsewhere on English sites...if you got the pertinent documents arranged cohesively, I think that would be a pretty big service to Kung Fu in the English speaking world.

1) Bawang has a secret source that he will never tell anyone because his existence is dependant on making kong foo kids cry. Actually, I think Bawang just wants to make everyone cry.. Either out of rage, frustration, or laughter.

2) I've heard that Adam Hsu talks about some of this in his book The Sword Polisher's Record. Something about there originally not being a lot of forms or something? I still need to read the book myself.

[Kymus]

I agree with this. But the student must be put into a situation where self discovery is inevitable.

Think Luke Skywalker in the swamp. :cool:

I second this. You can't teach someone all the answers, but you can teach them to the point where they should be able to start figuring things out for themselves. The whole "play with it" concept. There are some people that are too rigid of thinkers to get this, and those people are a different matter entirely.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I like doing my forms.
They give me something that drills and sparring don't:
Internal perspective.
And no, not internal in that way.

I get lost in my forms, I can focus on the most minor of details, I can make it what I want it to be at any given time.

Forms, IMO, "finish" a MA for me.

[Syn7]

I second this. You can't teach someone all the answers, but you can teach them to the point where they should be able to start figuring things out for themselves. The whole "play with it" concept. There are some people that are too rigid of thinkers to get this, and those people are a different matter entirely.

Kinda reminds me of this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIEJjpVlZu0

[hskwarrior]

so is it possible the origin of forms training may have been more of a ritual than we let on? Could the current popular thinking about this tradition be completely misconstrued?

no! .......

[MightyB]

I like doing my forms.


I second this. Personally I like playing the bigger / more expressive forms. They're fun, and all forms require mad skillz if you want to pull them off properly.

[Kymus]

Kinda reminds me of this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIEJjpVlZu0

Agreed.

It's the empty cup analogy in a way. There are 3 steps:


empty cup
pour tea
drink tea


A good student is the empty cup, a good teacher is like an unlimited pitcher of tea. If both work well, then the student will know that he needs to drink the tea himself.

[Kymus]

I like doing my forms.

I don't think there's anything wrong with forms. Not until that becomes the prime focus of an art.

I used to go to this real good traditional school. The teacher there had legit lineage and he trained in Taiwan. The forms were good, the school was traditional, on the surface everything looked great.

But there was little focus on the three levels of training resistance and they just did point sparring (I assume because that's what the tournament rules were). :confused::confused:

[Syn7]

It's funny... At first(way back) the argument was "doing forms does not a fighter make" and despite initial resistance, we have all pretty much agreed that this statement is true. If you want to be a good fighter, you fight. Simple... But when did this whole 'forms vs. whatever' debate turn into "forms suck and have no use"???

I know that's not what this thread is about, but it made me think of how much the attitude about forms has changed over the last decade or so.

I like forms. I also like dancing and doing gymnastics. While I do believe that being able to do these things gives me an advantage in ANY physical activity, I mean compared to where I myself would be w/o those skills, but never at any point did I delude myself into thinking that this was the epitome of training. I think the biggest issue here is priorities. As priorities change we change our methods. Simple... no?

I don't really care where or why forms came about, I just know they have a place in my life. I enjoy the exercise and the change up from the grind of other training methods. Forms are like my reward for doing drills just like air flares are my reward from doing handstand pushups and windmills.

http://cdn.list25.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/list25airflares.gif

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0mqt849DM1qi2pbzo1_400.gif

Man I love that second one...

[Kymus]

Syn, I think it's like this...

Most of us (I hope) know that there's something wrong with TCMA today.

Forms sort of stick out, I guess you can say. They're the whipping boy.

So the reaction a lot of people have is to trash them entirely.

I think the balance is in the middle (http://practicalhungkyun.com/curriculum/) (not my site, but I think what they're trying to do is real cool). What are forms but a sequence of movements to help you remember techniques? The real problem is either:

(A) tons of forms
(B) no time spent practicing these movements in different phases of resistance
and/or (C) all of the above

[Kymus]

have you seen Planet BBoy?

[Syn7]

Yeah... I also have the vids for BOTY for every year.

[Lucas]

forms are a good vehicle for delivery of certain aspects of style specific movement as well. footwork is an example. for instance, in the xingyi i recently started training, the footwork is different than previous styles i have studied over the years in that the feet have a parallel setting with this particular method of xingyi. if left to my own devices my feet will automatically revert to the years of stance work i already have in place. doing the form allows me to build the muscle memory needed through focused concentration to allow the footwork to become a natural method for me.


it gives you a method of being able to practice alone that allows you to look inside yourself and evaluate what you are doing, as well as repetative reinforcement of methods that you are not accustomed to. its the polishing phase imo. the drills and so forth are what teach you to use your techniques so that you can transfer them to a live environment. the form allows you to take these techniques out of context of live environment and 'internalize' the movement for refinement.

[MightyB]

Syn, I think it's like this...

Most of us (I hope) know that there's something wrong with TCMA today.

(A) tons of forms
(B) no time spent practicing these movements in different phases of resistance
and/or (C) all of the above
[/LIST]

Yes and No. There isn't anything wrong with TCMA, that's a bit of an overgeneralization. Some schools are good, some are bad, and there are aspects that don't fit into our perception of martial art. If a school doesn't progress through my paradigm of the three levels, then it doesn't fit my perception, but that doesn't mean it's bad. It's just not for me.

[Kymus]

Yes and No. There isn't anything wrong with TCMA, that's a bit of an overgeneralization. Some schools are good, some are bad, and there are aspects that don't fit into our perception of martial art. If a school doesn't progress through my paradigm of the three levels, then it doesn't fit my perception, but that doesn't mean it's bad. It's just not for me.

I can agree with that. It's not TCMA itself, but how it is taught today, I think.

[MightyB]

I can agree with that. It's not TCMA itself, but how it is taught today, I think.

go to an International Kuoshu Tournament. I believe they still have them. It's been a long while so I don't know what they're like today, but it used to be expected that you do an open hand form, weapon form, and fight full contact. And to much the surprise of the greater online modern kung fu community, you actually do see some "style" in the free fighting.

[Kymus]

go to an International Kuoshu Tournament. I believe they still have them. It's been a long while so I don't know what they're like today, but it used to be expected that you do an open hand form, weapon form, and fight full contact. And to much the surprise of the greater online modern kung fu community, you actually do see some "style" in the free fighting.

Not asking you to scour youtube for me, but if you ever find some good clips, please share them with me. That sounds great!

[Jimbo]

I can agree with that. It's not TCMA itself, but how it is taught today, I think.

That's a very big generalization, assuming that we know how TCMA is taught in every school of every conceivable system/style, in every country. That's a rather broad umbrella.

There have been schools/practitioners (definitely since, and almost certainly before, the boxer rebellion) that emphasized the performance/artistic aspect and deemphasized the combative aspect, just as there have always been other schools that emphasized a combative approach. And many emphasize a balance of the two. This phenomenon isn't just a recent occurrence.

[Kymus]

That's a very big generalization, assuming that we know how TCMA is taught in every school of every conceivable system/style, in every country. That's a rather broad umbrella.

The 3 levels of training can be applied to any school, so can full-contact sparring. From there, each art can figure out what works for them and if they need to change/add/remove anything.

This Hung Gar School (http://practicalhungkyun.com/) is doing something along those lines. I can't tell them that they should add or remove certain forms, but I can't see why they wouldn't benefit from the above mentioned and then consider whether they should or shouldn't change anything.

[Syn7]

Yes and No. There isn't anything wrong with TCMA, that's a bit of an overgeneralization. Some schools are good, some are bad, and there are aspects that don't fit into our perception of martial art. If a school doesn't progress through my paradigm of the three levels, then it doesn't fit my perception, but that doesn't mean it's bad. It's just not for me.

Depends on your priorities. If all you do is forms and you want to be a fighter, it's a ****ty school FOR YOU. If you just wanna have fun, be healthy and do cool demos then it would be a great school.... FOR YOU. Know what I'm sayin? Of course it goes both ways... If all you wanna do is have fun and get some exercise and your teachers keep kicking your ass, not a good school..... FOR YOU.

You wanna learn how to put your hands on somebody, you gotta practice putting your hands on somebody.

If I want to be a great ditch digger, what is better: lifting weights and doing shovel motions

or

actually digging ditches?

[Syn7]

Also...


We can't ignore the money thing here. Performance theater has always been popular. Many CMA cats have made a living impressing people with solo demos. Others see that and think "COOOOOL, I wanna do that!" and on it goes from there.

[Kellen Bassette]

I like forms. I also like dancing and doing gymnastics. While I do believe that being able to do these things gives me an advantage in ANY physical activity, I mean compared to where I myself would be w/o those skills, but never at any point did I delude myself into thinking that this was the epitome of training. I think the biggest issue here is priorities. As priorities change we change our methods. Simple... no?


This is my line of thinking...I like forms as well and have defended them as having value to a fighter many times in this forum. I think they are beneficial, much in the way gymnastics, yoga, track, ect are beneficial to a fighter, but probably a little more so.

My point is...if you go to Thailand and train Muay Thai, you work on your fighting skills. When your all done with your pads, bags, sparring, clinch, drills ect...then you practice your Wai Ku. It seems to me that in a lot of TCMA; and TMA in general, the majority of the curriculum is built around the forms; and all that other stuff is supplementary. The ranking system in most TMA schools is built around form memorization, hence most training seems to be geared to this end.

So...I dislike the idea of people practicing mainly this one aspect, which was probably a much, much smaller part of training in ancient times and defending their avoidance of developing real martial skill as "traditional."

To me, this is not "traditional" at all.

[Kellen Bassette]

no! .......

That's a very persuasive argument you have there....:cool:

[Kellen Bassette]

1) Bawang has a secret source that he will never tell anyone because his existence is dependant on making kong foo kids cry. Actually, I think Bawang just wants to make everyone cry.. Either out of rage, frustration, or laughter.


I know he likes the white wimmins with the yellow hairs. Maybe we can bribe him...

[hskwarrior]

That's a very persuasive argument you have there....

sumtimes its just THAT simple. LOL

[Kellen Bassette]

Fair enough....:)

[bawang]

When are you going to write a serious paper and quote all your sources?

You come up with a lot of stuff that we don't see elsewhere on English sites...if you got the pertinent documents arranged cohesively, I think that would be a pretty big service to Kung Fu in the English speaking world.

i will never reveal the secret of the wulin to the hairy ones.

[Kellen Bassette]

i will never reveal the secret of the wulin to the hairy ones.

Then the way of the wombat shall be lost.

[SavvySavage]

go to an International Kuoshu Tournament. I believe they still have them. It's been a long while so I don't know what they're like today, but it used to be expected that you do an open hand form, weapon form, and fight full contact. And to much the surprise of the greater online modern kung fu community, you actually do see some "style" in the free fighting.

I've been to some Kuo shu matches. I didnt notice any discernible style. It looked like "kickboxing".

[Kymus]

It seems to me that in a lot of TCMA; and TMA in general, the majority of the curriculum is built around the forms; and all that other stuff is supplementary. The ranking system in most TMA schools is built around form memorization, hence most training seems to be geared to this end.


Agree 100%

I think there's too much imbalance. Lots of forms and memorization, but little in the way of application. :mad:

[YouKnowWho]

I think there's too much imbalance. Lots of forms and memorization, but little in the way of application. :mad:

It depends on the teacher. You don't have to teach forms as the way you have taught. You can teach application only. You can always avoid this mistake in your generation. Of course you don't have to tell your teacher, "Sorry that I don't teach the forms that you have taught me."

What will a praying mantis teacher teach if he doesn't teach form? He will become a Sanda teacher. What will a WC teacher teach if he doesn't teach form? He will also become a Sanda teacher. Sometime when people said, "This is not WC, ..." To me, as long as this is "combat", that's all it matters. As long as your fist can land on your opponent's face, why do you care about anything else?

[Kymus]

Certainly not everyone focuses just on forms and memorization, but I think that more time should be spent with drilling, 3 levels of practice, and sparring.

Forms provide a way for a student to learn and memorize a variety of techniques; many times the forms themselves help the student practice the application (albeit without an opponent, but you get the idea).

Indeed one can stop the cycle; take what their teacher did and just throw it out there in a different way.

Ever so slowly, I think I'm starting to see more people in the TCMA community do this.

[Kellen Bassette]

Ever so slowly, I think I'm starting to see more people in the TCMA community do this.

Maybe this forum will aid the revolution, our words will be a catalyst for change! The Shaolin Temple will erect a Steele for Bawang and put it next to his mother's Steele!

But seriously, I think it is slowly happening.....