If you don't teach forms ...

[YouKnowWho]

If you are a TCMA teacher and you don't teach forms, what will you teach? What will you call your style?

Can you teach and preserve your WC (or praying mantis, longfist, ...) system without teaching forms?

[PalmStriker]

I have never practiced anything as a long form. Very short forms consisting of a half dozen movements containing techniques but not mix and match combinations. This is a practice I gravitated to many years ago so I really don't think of doing otherwise. In teaching I would also promote this practice but have never cared to teach what I know, designed for my own use.

[YouKnowWho]

If we look at the boxing system:

1 - jab,
2 - cross,
3 - hook,
4 - uppercut,

If you always start from jab, and also assume you alway alternative your left and right hands, for 4 moves combo, you will have 1 (jab only) x 3 (can be cross, or hook, or uppercut), x 3 (can be jab, or hook, or uppercut) x 3 (can be cross, or hook, or uppercut) = 27 different 4 moves combos. If you want, you can link it ito 27 x 4 = 108 moves boxing form (same number of moves as the Yang taiji long form). If you don't care about form, you can always have just 27 drills.

Of course if you use one hand to do multiple strikes such as low hook, medium hook, high hook, you will have more drills.

Why can't we use "permutation method" to teach TCMA? Since not all permutation will make sense, we will have less number of combos come out of this mathematics model. Of course we can apply this into defense, footwork, kicks, lock, throws, ... or mix of all those.

[Howard]

not a teacher per se....but guess would be same as now - techniques, combinations, drills, apparatus, combat ....no difference ....and name would be same: Tongbei Quan (we don't care too much about forms)...

[tc101]

If you are a TCMA teacher and you don't teach forms, what will you teach? What will you call your style?

Can you teach and preserve your WC (or praying mantis, longfist, ...) system without teaching forms?

There is a branch of wing chun from Ku Lo village that does not teach forms and instead teaches through a series of points.

[bawang]

forms is 1% of what you teach in real kung fu. example:

"when to hit with confidence

1. hit the young, 2. hit the old. 3. hit the one with shaking hands, 4. hopping alot 5. lowers the head 6. changes stance 7. distracted 8. slow hands"



Why can't we use "permutation method" to teach TCMA? Since not all permutation will make sense, we will have less number of combos come out of this mathematics model. Of course we can apply this into defense, footwork, kicks, lock, throws, ... or mix of all those.

of course northern kung fu has drills with jab cross kick. chinese people are not retarded.

[SoCo KungFu]

forms is 1% of what you teach in real kung fu. example:

"when to hit with confidence

1. hit the young, 2. hit the old. 3. hit the one with shaking hands, 4. hopping alot 5. lowers the head 6. changes stance 7. distracted 8. slow hands"



northern kung fu uses permutation method. its called five elements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B292wwnyCqs

[PalmStriker]

Lol ! :D :) :D

[mooyingmantis]

If you are a TCMA teacher and you don't teach forms, what will you teach? What will you call your style?

Can you teach and preserve your WC (or praying mantis, longfist, ...) system without teaching forms?

In mantis, forms pass the traditions and movements taught in the last 150 years. Though all the strategies and theories of the system can be taught without forms.

[SPJ]

If you are a TCMA teacher and you don't teach forms, what will you teach? What will you call your style?

Can you teach and preserve your WC (or praying mantis, longfist, ...) system without teaching forms?

Since we walk with one step at a time,

we learn or drill one move or one technique at a time.

1. single move/technique.

2. combo of a few moves/techniques

3. free sparring with learned move/technique.

:)

[bawang]

In mantis, forms pass the traditions and movements taught in the last 150 years. Though all the strategies and theories of the system can be taught without forms.

shaolin kung fu has over 50 combinations of jab and cross. if people just stop stop obsessing over forms, they can find real kung fu easily.

if someone just teach you forms, he is worthless and his kung fu is worthless. paying thousands of dollars to learn forms for 10 years is a horrible waste of time and money, a horrible waste of your life, you can learn everything he knows from a dvd in 30 minutes.

[Yum Cha]

Forms are for leaning. Once you have 'learned' the forms, what do you do?
And when I say learned the forms, I mean 10,000 times kinda learned, not 'remembered'.
Palmstriker pointed out an obvious conclusion, you practice what you need to fight, your consolidated 'favorites' or 'proven' techniques, and you hone them 10,000 times.
You practice Kungs, small exercises that may change the way your body works, so you can do some of your key techniques better...and better....and better....

There are a couple of different takes on 'forms' as well. Some are just a collection of moves, combinations, etc. They train you in technique, co-ordination, stamina, etc.
Other forms train core skills, which can be applied to any technique... i.e a form that teaches speed, as opposed to learning the 9 punch combination, 1,2,3,4,5,6....etc. Or one that teaches breath management through an extra exerting series of exercises.

Some forms contained both at one point, but the subtlety was lost by 'crippled children'.
Just to add, forms practice has a whole spectrum beyond fighting as well, and while some people may pass it up, I've continued to enjoy forms training, and probably always will.

[bawang]

Some forms contained both at one point, but the subtlety was lost by 'crippled children'.
Just to add, forms practice has a whole spectrum beyond fighting as well, and while some people may pass it up, I've continued to enjoy forms training, and probably always will.

i also enjoy forms. i just cant pay 10 dollars an hour for it ever again.

[Yum Cha]

i also enjoy forms. i just cant pay 10 dollars an hour for it ever again.

<shurgs> Yea, I get it. I do forms training in my own time mostly now days, only a bit at training, when I have some time.

[Miqi]

i also enjoy forms. i just cant pay 10 dollars an hour for it ever again.

That's wisdom right there.

[MightyB]

If you are a TCMA teacher and you don't teach forms, what will you teach? What will you call your style?


Jeet Kune Do


http://i.imgur.com/U7RdtUd.jpg.jpg

[Yum Cha]

I always felt sorry for Lee, getting rejected by Yip Man for being a d1ckhead, and feeling so bitter about the old boys and their ways.

It applies to anything, the argument of depth vs breadth.
When I first started Pak Mei, there was so much of the art that was just inaccessible, didn't feel comfortable and I couldn't execute it live to save my life, or when I did, I got cleaned up. I knew the score already from kickboxing, and it puzzled me.

I didn't really give a rat's a$$, it was a challenge, I saw it working off Sifu's hands so I knew it was possible. Piece by piece, little things came together, the stuff started to work, incremental rewards, like pavlov's dogs...

And of course, there was all the stuff I never expected, which just started making sense as the things tied together. Like the mysterous 'internal' power...:D

I look at it this way, there are an ultimately unlimited number of options on how to fight. I didn't intend to pick one. I reckon I was just lucky to fall in with an art that had so much to offer over such a long time. Like reading a good book, it just keeps you turning the pages. I know how uncommon that is. Why so is a topic for further debate.

[YouKnowWho]

I always felt sorry for Lee, getting rejected by Yip Man for being a d1ckhead, and feeling so bitter about the old boys and their ways.

If

- Bill Gates was satisfied with his MS DOS, there won't be Window today.
- Steve Jobs was satisfied with his Apple Lisa, there won't be Ipod today.

If Bruce Lee was satisfied with his WC, the best that he could do was a good WC instructor, no more and no less. There won't be JKD today. Some people are satisfied just to be a good copy machine. Some people want more in their lifetime.

[lance]

If you are a TCMA teacher and you don't teach forms, what will you teach? What will you call your style?

Can you teach and preserve your WC (or praying mantis, longfist, ...) system without teaching forms? YouKnowWho , maybe you know this already forms or set is for traditional purposes but it ' s really the applications that you ' re going to use the most for fighting or self defense .

If I were a TCMA I would teach the usages to the 1st set or forms , because to me
it ' ll take time and patient for each student to absorb the set or forms within themselves so I would teach the applications which lead to the movements of the 1st form , and go on from there .

If I were to teach Wing Chun as an example , I would teach the applications to the 1st forms or set , and show the students how one application would lead to what movement of the set or forms .

Or I can just teach them all the basic block and strikes of the WC system so they can practice some self defense techniques and no to forget kicks and everything which pertains to street defense situations . The samething you can do with praying mantis or longfist . You ' re still teaching the style regardless if you teach them WC , longfist , praying mantis . Because to me it ' s the applications to the set or forms in a kung fu system or style which is basically the secret of the system or style in general . Then that way the students can find it interesting to learn and practice kung fu regardless of style or system under their own sifu , but it all deoends on what the sifu himself or simu herself wants to teach the student themselves .

Lance

[Miqi]

I always felt sorry for Lee, getting rejected by Yip Man for being a d1ckhead, and feeling so bitter about the old boys and their ways.

It applies to anything, the argument of depth vs breadth.
When I first started Pak Mei, there was so much of the art that was just inaccessible, didn't feel comfortable and I couldn't execute it live to save my life, or when I did, I got cleaned up. I knew the score already from kickboxing, and it puzzled me.

I didn't really give a rat's a$$, it was a challenge, I saw it working off Sifu's hands so I knew it was possible. Piece by piece, little things came together, the stuff started to work, incremental rewards, like pavlov's dogs...

And of course, there was all the stuff I never expected, which just started making sense as the things tied together. Like the mysterous 'internal' power...:D

I look at it this way, there are an ultimately unlimited number of options on how to fight. I didn't intend to pick one. I reckon I was just lucky to fall in with an art that had so much to offer over such a long time. Like reading a good book, it just keeps you turning the pages. I know how uncommon that is. Why so is a topic for further debate.


Every so often someone likes to mention how hard they train, and they call that “eating bitter” – as if everyone else who is serious isn’t training hard, lol. The real “eating bitter” is to be someone like Bruce Lee, who sees a big part of the truth, but is then ridiculed and slagged off by people who don’t.

[Kymus]

The real “eating bitter” is to be someone like Bruce Lee, who sees a big part of the truth, but is then ridiculed and slagged off by people who don’t.

I wouldn't call it "the truth", so much as someone finding their "way". I've done JKD and personally, I feel like the traditional arts have more to offer me.

Certainly you can take aspects of JKD or other non-traditional arts and apply it to your training (ie: train hard on the applications and use forms as a method to remember these applications). Though with JKD, it's easy to ditch the forms since there aren't a lot of techniques (side kick, front snap kick, side snap kick, jab, cross, hook, uppercut, pak sao, bong sao, lop sao, tan sao, maybe a few others). We just did pad work and trapping.

The trapping we did kinda falls through because (at least at my school) we never focused on the 3 levels of resistance; it was just about whether you were doing the technique correctly. This is a problem lots of traditional arts face: there is no focus on training against a fully resisting opponent.

I'm not going to touch the whole lots of movements vs a few argument :p

[SavvySavage]

I always felt sorry for Lee, getting rejected by Yip Man for being a d1ckhead, and feeling so bitter about the old boys and their ways.



Bitter or not those "old boys" with their traditional wing chun training got destroyed by thai boxers in the ring. Famous article.

Lee had the right idea. Use his wing chun base and find his true fighting style which is not the same as mimicking eveyone at his Hong Kong school. Beating other Hong Kong Kung fu people is one thing.

This girl in my high school was God's gift to cross country running. She would destroy the other girls and won the all county championship. Then she went to the state championship race and learned that there are thousands of girls just like her...but better.

[Oso]

YouKnowWho , maybe you know this already forms or set is for traditional purposes but it ' s really the applications that you ' re going to use the most for fighting or self defense .Lance


:) not trolling you, brah. But, it's not too hard to figure out who YKW is. And, he knows. And was trolling just a tad bit. :)

[Yum Cha]

Bruce Lee was a pioneer, no disrespect, but he wasn't the messiah.

[Orion Paximus]

I really dig Bruce Lee's movies. And his contribution to making Martial Arts mainstream can never be overstated. However, his other contribution to MA was to give the lazy (though Lee himself was far from lazy) and the ADHD crowd an excuse to not put forth the effort to train a system when they found the time and rigors of learning an entire system too much hard work.

"Look, man, Bruce Less told us to discard all the bull**** and he was the greatest fighter ever!"

:rolleyes:

[SPJ]

Short combo or single technique drills are good.

Long forms or routines are gruesome and boring.

:)

[lkfmdc]

Bruce Lee was a pioneer, no disrespect, but he wasn't the messiah.

People freak out when you criticize Bruce Lee, but the facts are the facts

None of his ideas were "new" or "innovative". He was a philosophy major in school and some of the ideas that are attributed to him are in fact the thoughts of others

His famous/infamous book "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" (which some have pointed our is "WAY of jeet kune WAY" lol) contained ideas and techniques of OTHERS as well... notably old school boxers, at least one very famous fencer, and Gene LeBell.

For thousands of years there were martial artists in China saying the same things about forms fairies, unrealistic training, fixed patterns etc

Bruce Lee benefited from arriving in the US before much of the public had been exposed to martial arts, when martial arts was still relatively scarce. He also benefitted from the fame his TV and movie career brought him. Finally, like James Dean, dying young, perpetuallhy captured at the height of your star served his image

[David Jamieson]

People freak out when you criticize Bruce Lee, but the facts are the facts

None of his ideas were "new" or "innovative". He was a philosophy major in school and some of the ideas that are attributed to him are in fact the thoughts of others

His famous/infamous book "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" (which some have pointed our is "WAY of jeet kune WAY" lol) contained ideas and techniques of OTHERS as well... notably old school boxers, at least one very famous fencer, and Gene LeBell.

For thousands of years there were martial artists in China saying the same things about forms fairies, unrealistic training, fixed patterns etc

Bruce Lee benefited from arriving in the US before much of the public had been exposed to martial arts, when martial arts was still relatively scarce. He also benefitted from the fame his TV and movie career brought him. Finally, like James Dean, dying young, perpetuallhy captured at the height of your star served his image

I ride this train as well.

His movies were fun, but dang, there are so many BL kool aid drinkers in the Kung Fu world. People have trouble accepting him for what he was and have this misdirected way of putting him on a pedestal out of their own ignorance.

I swear, if I gotta hear one more stanza from the Tao Te Ching or the I Ching vehemently promoted as a BL saying I'm going to puke. lol

He was interesting and cannot be downgraded as an inspiration for many to study kung fu, but the status given is far too often inappropriate and just keeps the trollcycle going in regards to what is kung fu.

[MightyB]

Bruce Lee's image grows by the day. His impact is profound. Doesn't matter what other suckers he drew inspiration from because it's his voice that actually got heard. As backwards as current MAs are, they'd be far worse if it wasn't for his influence.

There's your Kool Aid - Sucka's :cool:

[SPJ]

When they first aired green hornet with kato

I was like 5 or 6 year old.

fast and high kicks

and hornet darts.

--

http://youtu.be/yvkjKklX4Vc

:)

[lkfmdc]

I ride this train as well.



if you start agreeing with me, people will talk ;)

[SavvySavage]

Bruce Lee was a pioneer, no disrespect, but he wasn't the messiah.

Bruce Lee definitely wasn't the messiah...but neither were the guys in Hong Kong where he trained.

[Kymus]

For thousands of years there were martial artists in China saying the same things about forms fairies

The forms fairy is real??!?! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

What should I put under my pillow???

[Yum Cha]

The forms fairy is real??!?! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

What should I put under my pillow???

...your mama's phone number....:D

[Yum Cha]

What is the Chinese Phrase for "Fancy Hands, Embrodery Legs", that pre-dates even Gene LaBelle!

[David Jamieson]

There's an old saying: "Repetition is the mother of skill".

[MightyB]

What is the Chinese Phrase for "Fancy Hands, Embrodery Legs", that pre-dates even Gene LaBelle!

Embroidery Legs; Flowery Fists. Then they also talked about Paper Tigers, and my personal fav: Lop Sop

[bawang]

Embroidery Legs; Flowery Fists. Then they also talked about Paper Tigers, and my personal fav: Lop Sop

another phrase is "iron mouth, rubber fist".

[MightyB]

another phrase is "iron mouth, rubber fist".

That could also be the title of a porno movie.

[PalmStriker]

If

- Bill Gates was satisfied with his MS DOS, there won't be Window today.
- Steve Jobs was satisfied with his Apple Lisa, there won't be Ipod today.

If Bruce Lee was satisfied with his WC, the best that he could do was a good WC instructor, no more and no less. There won't be JKD today. Some people are satisfied just to be a good copy machine. Some people want more in their lifetime.
Hey John! You are right about this, it's also a common trait in other endeavors. I am a member of a Classical Guitar forum out of France. Most people playing this genre of music also strive for perfection but are satisfied with just playing the works of the Masters. A small percentage of them are serious composers. :) http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/

[FullPotentialMA]

Practicing with a partner may not be available all the time. The form, on the other hand, is there with you always. Practitioners can learn more, and get a deeper understanding of alignment, movement, and feeling, by practicing the forms. They can then bring that to work with a partner.

In other words -- both partner work and form work have a place and time.

[Yum Cha]

another phrase is "iron mouth, rubber fist".

I knew a girl like that once.

[west]

If you are a TCMA teacher and you don't teach forms, what will you teach? What will you call your style?

Can you teach and preserve your WC (or praying mantis, longfist, ...) system without teaching forms?

I like this thread. Before we discuss this we need to analyze what each style is and what is specializes in. What characteristics does wing chun try to teach its students? Focus on that instead of all the trappings of it(forms, weapon forms, etc). I know a little about wing chun bot not much. I know they do a lot of close in fighting. Is there anything that teaches that with real resistance? Yes. Dirty boxing. Study dirty boxing and wing chun together and you could have a winning system.

In traditional schools they geberally do not like when you introduce stuff outside the established curriculum. 1. It takes away from that days lesson. 2) If you get the better of a student or instructor with your outside sills that makes them mad which is natural. But instead of exploring their feelings to come to a logical conclusion they decide to get angry and say you are not doing x style.

Focus on the skills the system is trying to impart instead of the external look of the style. That is my conclusion.

[Kellen Bassette]

Practicing with a partner may not be available all the time.

But you can always condition. Heavy bag is a great place to work form....

[west]

Practicing with a partner may not be available all the time. The form, on the other hand, is there with you always. Practitioners can learn more, and get a deeper understanding of alignment, movement, and feeling, by practicing the forms. They can then bring that to work with a partner.

In other words -- both partner work and form work have a place and time.

If no partner is available then I think you would be better served either conditioning or working on technical movements. I guess you could call working technical movement "forms" but it is not the same as a long choreographed form.

[YouKnowWho]

If you know all the building blocks such as:

- jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, ...
- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, spin hook kick, ...
- straight elbow, downward elbow, horizontal elbow, backward elbow, side elbow, ...
- vertical knee, horizontal knee, diagonal knee, flying knee, ...
- finger bending, fingers split, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, spine lock, ...
- hip throw, single leg, double legs, leg block, leg twist, leg lift, inner hook, outer hook, ...

How hard can it be to create your own drills? If you want, you can link your drills into a form.

[west]

If you know all the building blocks such as:

- jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, ...
- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, spin hook kick, ...
- straight elbow, downward elbow, horizontal elbow, backward elbow, side elbow, ...
- vertical knee, horizontal knee, diagonal knee, flying knee, ...
- finger bending, fingers split, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, spine lock, ...
- hip throw, single leg, double legs, leg block, leg twist, leg lift, inner hook, outer hook, ...

How hard can it be to create your own drills? If you want, you can link your drills into a form.

Forms have a lot of movements that may have had a use but do no today. I understand what you are saying but the drills you would make up from the techniques you listed would not be the same as useless traditional forms.

[lance]

I wouldn't call it "the truth", so much as someone finding their "way". I've done JKD and personally, I feel like the traditional arts have more to offer me.

Certainly you can take aspects of JKD or other non-traditional arts and apply it to your training (ie: train hard on the applications and use forms as a method to remember these applications). Though with JKD, it's easy to ditch the forms since there aren't a lot of techniques (side kick, front snap kick, side snap kick, jab, cross, hook, uppercut, pak sao, bong sao, lop sao, tan sao, maybe a few others). We just did pad work and trapping.

The trapping we did kinda falls through because (at least at my school) we never focused on the 3 levels of resistance; it was just about whether you were doing the technique correctly. This is a problem lots of traditional arts face: there is no focus on training against a fully resisting opponent.

I'm not going to touch the whole lots of movements vs a few argument :p
Kymus , who was your JKD teacher anyway ? Just out of curiosity , that ' s all .

[Kymus]

Kymus , who was your JKD teacher anyway ? Just out of curiosity , that ' s all .

Sifu Rick Tucci and Sifu Jeff Jones