Han Tong's White Ape Boxing

[Tainan Mantis]

An early story of Han Tong and Zhao Kuangyin having a fight and weaving together the style of Han Tong

2. Han Tong's tongbei is the mother
With White Ape Boxing.

Han Tong's White Ape Boxing (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2013/Han%20Tong's%20White%20Ape.htm)

[Tainan Mantis]

In the play Beating Han Tong Han Tong and Zhao Kuang-Yin meet for the first time at Shandong's Mu Ling Pass.
Mu Ling Pass was a real place to guard Shandong from the Northern barabarians.
The interesting thing is that today, there are still stories of Han Tong local to this area.

Has anyone else heard stories of Han Tong at Mu Ling Pass?
One of the interesting ones, supposedly a true account, I am not sure how old, is that Zhao Kuang-Yin tied Han Tong to his horse and dragged him for miles.

In the official history of the Song it merely says that Han Tong opposed Zhao Kuang-Yin's being named the new emperor of a new dynasty and for this he was killed. So we know that his life ends in 960 AD on the eve of the Song Dynasty.

The version of play Beating Han Tong that I have is from the early to mid Ming Dynasty.

By the time of the Qing Dynasty in the novel "Fei Long Chuan Zhuan" there first meeting takes place outside a brothel where they once again have a battle.

The story changes, but Zhao always beats Han Tong.
The original story of Zhao's martial exploits can be definitively dated to the middle to late Song dynasty.

[mawali]

An early story of Han Tong and Zhao Kuangyin having a fight and weaving together the style of Han Tong

2. Han Tong's tongbei is the mother
With White Ape Boxing.

Han Tong's White Ape Boxing (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2013/Han%20Tong's%20White%20Ape.htm)


Somehow I see a web of different CMA style here, allegedly and I am certain they borrow from one another. The extent is unknown to me at this time.
a. Tong bei
b. Tang lang

[mooyingmantis]

Somehow I see a web of different CMA style here, allegedly and I am certain they borrow from one another. The extent is unknown to me at this time.
a. Tong bei
b. Tang lang

Tongbei or "through the back" is a very important concept in the Mainland and Taiwanese tanglangquan that I have seen. It only takes a few minutes of watching someone punch to see if they have the proper mantis shen fa.

[xiao yao]

well they are regional styles. the most popular styles in yantai/qingdao this area are tanglang, tongbei, chang quan, bagua, ditang.

they no doubt have had an influence on each other. before the communist times yantai had over 100 kung fu schools just in the downtown area. challenge matches were commonplace and no doubt they absorbed the good techniques and principles of their opponents in order to keep themselves on top.

[Tainan Mantis]

well they are regional styles.

Do you know how far Mu Ling Pass is from Yantai?

[xiao yao]

do you know what city it is in or near?

you say its a border area to guard from northern barbarians. so i would assume its up near hebei province in the north west of shandong.

most of the old history seems to take place in the west of shandong, and from what i remember the style chuo jiao originates from north west shandong, exactly on the border with hebei province.

[Tainan Mantis]

Here are the coordinates that I have found
　穆陵關，位於濰坊市臨朐縣大關鎮與臨沂市沂水縣馬站鎮交界處，曾是齊長城沿線
的這座最古老、最雄偉、最險要的關隘，現遺址無存。　

On google search in America the terms will bring in a location
Great Wall of Qi Dynasty Muling Pass Site, Yishui, Linyi, Shandong, China

It is listed as being 374 km, 5 hours 8 mins from Yantai City. Who knows how accurate that is.

One reason why this whole Mu Ling Pass has been so absorbing is that the Ming Dynasty records a kung fu style as the style of

Han Tong's Mu Ling Pass

[xiao yao]

Kevin, you remember Tan Jun, the long fist guy with glasses I train with sometimes.... his grandfather was from Linyi and introduced the style of Tan Tui Chang Quan to Yantai.

http://www.monkeystealspeach.co.uk/iron-legs-of-tan-tui.php

http://www.monkeystealspeach.co.uk/powerful-legs-of-chuo-jiao.php

Heres a couple of documentaries from Chinese TV on tan tui and chuo jiao, cant remember if they mention Linyi specifically, but they are based in that general area.

[Tainan Mantis]

Kevin, you remember Tan Jun

Does Tan Jun know of Mu Ling Guan?
I liked on the satellite map. It looks like a few grouping of very small towns.
Somewhere in that area is some sort of ancient monument that mentions Han Tong.
I really would like to get a rubbing or picture of that.

[Paul T England]

The tong bei element of mantis is very interesting.

Can someone explain the key features of tong bei and some charactisic moves from 7 star mantis?

Thanks
Paul

[mooyingmantis]

The tong bei element of mantis is very interesting.

Can someone explain the key features of tong bei and some charactisic moves from 7 star mantis?

Thanks
Paul

It is much easier to demonstrate this in person or via video than through the written word, but I will try.
Tong bei or "through the back" comes down to us in mantis primarily as a principle. The principle emphasizes that the force of your hand, elbow or arm strikes flow through the back.

Examples

When I throw a right lead hand strike such as, 補 捶 - bǔ chuí, 插 捶 - chā chuí, 直 捶 - zhí chui, 崩 捶 - bēng chuí, or 葉 裡 藏 桃 - yè lǐ cáng táo the left rear shoulder, right lead shoulder and right fist should all be in alignment, regardless of the stance I am in.

When I throw a right rear hand strike such as, 封 統 捶 - fēng tǒng chuí, or 掛 統 捶 - guà tǒng chui the right fist, right shoulder and left shoulder should be in alignment.

To accomplish this the 腰 - yāo (waist/core) and 肩 - jiān (shoulders) must rotate fully.

From what I have seen, the Hong Kong branches of mantis do not emphasize this to the same degree as Taiwanese and Mainland mantis families.

[Tainan Mantis]

Can someone explain the key features of tong bei and some charactisic moves from 7 star mantis?

Hi Paul,
Have you seen the list of Seven Long?
Seven Long is a list of the principle and technques of Tong Bei in Mantis.

The end finishes with
"When Han Tong Demonstrated his greatness his hips and elbows worked as one to pass through his shoulders.
Later generations learned it.
Stretching forward and bending back,
Turning aside and rushing forward.
This is called Tong Bei"

I have not put the whole of Seven Long up in any online article, but I did mention the fourth long some time ago.


The ‘Seven Long’ attacks, supposedly descended from General Han Tong (?-960), use full range of the arms to attack. The 4th technique of ‘Seven Long’ says, ’Wrapping, sealing double palms; two hands unite and wrap and the double palms rush straight out.’
From an article I wrote that looks at how Qi and technqiues are combined. I tried to tie together the aspects of Luohan, Qi and Tong Bei in one article. I think the idea of the article was ok, but it needs a rewrite.

The Double Palm Strike of Mantis Boxing (http://www.plumflowermantisboxing.com/Articles/2010/double%20palm%20strike.htm)

[MightyB]

From what I have seen, the Hong Kong branches of mantis do not emphasize this to the same degree as Taiwanese and Mainland mantis families.

You need to get out more.

Real HK masters are extremely yao in the hips - the only thing they don't do is do the extreme bending of the waist in an exaggerated lean like mainlanders and the Taiwanese.

[mooyingmantis]

You need to get out more.

Real HK masters are extremely yao in the hips - the only thing they don't do is do the extreme bending of the waist in an exaggerated lean like mainlanders and the Taiwanese.

I know that you trained in HK NPM, but have you ever trained in any other family of mantis?

Seeing a much less use of yao in these Hong Kong Seven Star lineage masters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EypGB3VvMw (two person drills)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csgxdwsbdZY (starting at 04:10)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn8WWRdA5cI (form & applications)

BTW, let me be clear that I am NOT denigrating them or their skills. I am just trying to back my claim that Hong Kong QXTLQ mantis seems to put less emphasis on yao than the Mainland or Taiwan masters. Or if you want to say it another way, Mainland and Taiwan use a more extreme version of yao than Hong Kong QXTLQ.

Now compare the HK QXTLQ above to a couple Mainland Seven Star shifu's use of yao:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI3SHBSzB4U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzRWd6FDDOE

Compare the HK QXTLQ above with Taiji Tanglangquan use of yao at 01:50
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxPpK8uv-LE

Look at the difference in the lines going through the shoulders and the hips in each video.

[-N-]

Look at the difference in the lines going through the shoulders and the hips in each video.

This is the kind of alignment I expect from my students.

http://youtu.be/VFA25nNV8hM

http://youtu.be/5LYKw_uhU78

I've seen a lot of variation in what people do. But this is what I'm constantly correcting on students.

[MightyB]

I know that you trained in HK NPM, but have you ever trained in any other family of mantis?

Seeing a much less use of yao in these Hong Kong Seven Star lineage masters:

BTW, let me be clear that I am NOT denigrating them or their skills. I am just trying to back my claim that Hong Kong QXTLQ mantis seems to put less emphasis on yao than the Mainland or Taiwan masters. Or if you want to say it another way, Mainland and Taiwan use a more extreme version of yao than Hong Kong QXTLQ.


And I'm saying you're wrong, and it is coming across as condescending. Go to any of the high level guys that got it direct in Hong Kong and feel their power in person, doesn't matter if they're WHF or Chiu Chi Man lineage and see. Yao is the foundation of all the techniques.

Yao is rotational force, not bendy. the rotation drives power -

There is no difference in the mainland 7* and that of my Sifu. He spends hours upon hours trying to convey waist yao to us students, demonstrating easily 90 to 180 degrees of yao in every move.

[mooyingmantis]

This is the kind of alignment I expect from my students.

http://youtu.be/VFA25nNV8hM

http://youtu.be/5LYKw_uhU78

I've seen a lot of variation in what people do. But this is what I'm constantly correcting on students.

Your second example clearly shows good rotational power in the shoulders! :)


And I'm saying you're wrong, and it is coming across as condescending. Go to any of the high level guys that got it direct in Hong Kong and feel their power in person, doesn't matter if they're WHF or Chiu Chi Man lineage and see. Yao is the foundation of all the techniques.

Yao is rotational force, not bendy. the rotation drives power -

There is no difference in the mainland 7* and that of my Sifu. He spends hours upon hours trying to convey waist yao to us students, demonstrating easily 90 to 180 degrees of yao in every move.

I don't see how I can be coming across as condescending, since I have not said that one approach is wrong and the other is right. I am simply noting differences in what I have seen.
I don't know where you get the "bendy" thing from. I t is nothing like I am talking about.
If Master Chung's shenfa is more rotational, then he apparently does it differently than most that I have seen. Including those in the videos that I used as examples.
90 to 180 degrees of yao in every move is my goal and what I have been striving to attain.

[-N-]

Your second example clearly shows good rotational power in the shoulders! :)

From the first clip: kwun-lau, au-lou-choi.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/320-89257561.gif (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/Mr_Ugly/media/320-89257561.gif.html)

And a screen cap of the last move of the combination.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/123.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/Mr_Ugly/media/123.jpg.html)

[mooyingmantis]

From the first clip: kwun-lau, au-lou-choi.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/320-89257561.gif (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/Mr_Ugly/media/320-89257561.gif.html)

And a screen cap of the last move of the combination.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/123.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/user/Mr_Ugly/media/123.jpg.html)

Nice! My old eyes just couldn't catch the fast motions in the first video. :o

But that is a good representation about the lines through the hips and shoulders. So, it is nice to see HK based mantis players demonstrating the "through the back" principle. In this case, I stand corrected. :)

[-N-]

Nice! My old eyes just couldn't catch the fast motions in the first video. :o

But that is a good representation about the lines through the hips and shoulders. So, it is nice to see HK based mantis players demonstrating the "through the back" principle. In this case, I stand corrected. :)

Mantis is supposed to be fast. Brendan Lai used to say that your own moves have to be faster than you can see.

The student in that video was about intermediate level in application usage. He was the laziest of the 4 kids that I taught. Wouldn't bend his knees, wouldn't turn his waist, wouldn't stretch, wouldn't extend.

I would make him attack me and try to land that combination on my face. I'd pull his punch out of the air to let him know how slow it was.

As far as HK or whatever other Mantis, a lot of times I see people talk the talk when it comes to theory, but I want to see it in usage.