Forms of Hung Fut? 10 animals?

[LaterthanNever]

I read somewhere that Hung Fut has 10 animals? I'm aware that its roots have some origin in Hung Ga. Can someone please list the other 10 remaining animals?

Also, can someone please post a list of forms/sets of the style? Thanks

LTN

[David Jamieson]

10 and 12 animals seem to belong to Xingyi (Hsing I)
Hung Gar is big on 5 animals (snake, crane, dragon, leopard and tiger) but also has "10 killing hands" you think maybe it was this you heard of?
I haven't heard of 10 animals in a common place way within Hung Gar.

[lkfmdc]

10 animals of southern kung fu

tiger
crane
leopard
snake
dragon

elephant
monkey
horse
lion
tiger cub

[CLFNole]

I believe some mistake Sup Ying Kuen in Hung Gar as 10 Animals when I think it is 5 Animals (Tiger, Dragon, Snake, Crane & Panther) & 5 Elements (Metal, Earth, Wood, Water & Fire).

On a side note: CLF has deer as one of its 10 animals (albeit not in my lineage).

[Dr.Rob]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/4805312319/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1634&creative=6738&creativeASIN=4805312319&linkCode=as2&tag=wwwkendoinfon-21

I think this book by Kwan Tak Hing goes on about the Hung family and its fists...could that be the lead?? His foster father was Fok Hung,

[lkfmdc]

I believe some mistake Sup Ying Kuen in Hung Gar as 10 Animals when I think it is 5 Animals (Tiger, Dragon, Snake, Crane & Panther) & 5 Elements (Metal, Earth, Wood, Water & Fire).

On a side note: CLF has deer as one of its 10 animals (albeit not in my lineage).

WFH hung ga = 5 animals and 5 elements
not really "sup ying" but "ng ying ng haang kuen" is hard to wrap tongue around

There is village hung kuen and hung Fut with 10 animals
I hve seen various lists for CLF 10 animals

[brothernumber9]

"tiger cub" made me lol. I 'm sure you were laughing when you typed it.

[brothernumber9]

9 out of 10 that lkfmdc put up are among HF 10 animals. The other one is Eagle.

[Golden Arms]

Pretty much what LKFMDC said. You might find people swap in and out 1 or 2 (like the deer mentioned above) but most of those sound right.

[lkfmdc]

"tiger cub" made me lol. I 'm sure you were laughing when you typed it.

"biu" is a "tiger cub"... perfectly serious, get over it

[CLFNole]

I was told "biu" refered to deer but the tiger cub thing came up as well with that however the person said biu also referred to a deer in someway. The deer is used in the Chan Family lineage, whereas I have seen tiger cub in others. My wife said the characters used in DFWs list refers to a tiger not a deer (lok).

Supposedly it involves avey archaic character not really used anymore that shares the same sound as biu - tiger cub. This character is said to mean something like "golden flaming deer."
and has the radical for deer on the right side of the character and on the left side is metal and underneath the deer radical is fire. There were links to the character but they no longer work so who knows.

[Howard]

Hung Kuen 10 Animals :
Tiger, Snake, Leopard, Crane, Dragon, Elephant, Lion, Horse, Monkey and Wild Cat

[David Jamieson]

Hung Kuen 10 Animals :
Tiger, Snake, Leopard, Crane, Dragon, Elephant, Lion, Horse, Monkey and Wild Cat

Interesting. So the Hung Fut schools have the other 5?

I have heard of deer and bear and horse as well, but I think these are related to Hsing I.

anyway...

this is still interesting.

[lkfmdc]

I was told "biu" refered to deer but the tiger cub thing came up as well with that however the person said biu also referred to a deer in someway. The deer is used in the Chan Family lineage, whereas I have seen tiger cub in others. My wife said the characters used in DFWs list refers to a tiger not a deer (lok).

Supposedly it involves avey archaic character not really used anymore that shares the same sound as biu - tiger cub. This character is said to mean something like "golden flaming deer."
and has the radical for deer on the right side of the character and on the left side is metal and underneath the deer radical is fire. There were links to the character but they no longer work so who knows.

My dictionairies are in boxes in the basement, but I had the character, it is "fu" with a "sam dim soi" if you know what that means... in a classical dictionary it means a tiger cub

[LaterthanNever]

There is also Ba Ji Chuan which has the Bear and Tiger...

[Runlikehell]

My dictionairies are in boxes in the basement, but I had the character, it is "fu" with a "sam dim soi" if you know what that means... in a classical dictionary it means a tiger cub

彪
That character, right?

[lkfmdc]

彪
That character, right?

actually, yes, that is it

[IronWeasel]

I believe some mistake Sup Ying Kuen in Hung Gar as 10 Animals when I think it is 5 Animals (Tiger, Dragon, Snake, Crane & Panther) & 5 Elements (Metal, Earth, Wood, Water & Fire).

On a side note: CLF has deer as one of its 10 animals (albeit not in my lineage).




Interesting...

Are the Hung Gar 5 elements the same as the Hsing-i 5 elements (ie: 5 fists)?

[taichi4eva]

The names of the elements are the same, but the techniques are Wong Fei Hung's interpretation of the long arm techniques of Lama from Wong Yan Lum.

[crazedjustice88]

Yeah, pretty much the elements (in WFHs Hung Gar) are considered to be the different long arm techniques but the more you dig into the system the elements become more than that. I was starting to get a glimpse of them until I moved to another style. Its some very interesting stuff.

[Ben Gash]

"tiger cub" made me lol. I 'm sure you were laughing when you typed it.
I believe that while Biu means tiger cub what it refers to is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_golden_cat

[lkfmdc]

I believe that while Biu means tiger cub what it refers to is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_golden_cat

quite possilbe....

[brothernumber9]

Some other systems may have a deer and/or tiger cub. Hung Fut does not. i don't know off the top of my head if Hung Fut has a 10 animal form, but most branches have a small 5 animals and a big 5 animals sets, although both sets contain techniques from more than just 5.

[Tea Serpent]

I believe that while Biu means tiger cub what it refers to is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_golden_cat
Thanks, I had heard that it referred to a medium sized species of wild cat. Nice to get some confirmation.

[Tea Serpent]

10 animals of southern kung fu

tiger
crane
leopard
snake
dragon

elephant
monkey
horse
lion
tiger cub

The five upper animals are always the same, but there is some variations on the five lower animals depending on the style or lineage. But the ones you posted are the same as found In Hung Fut and in the ten animal Hung Gar practiced in the Ha Say Fu region. Although more or less those same ten are found in some other systems too (CLF), usually if there is a difference it is only with one or two of the lower animals.

But finding an actual combined Ten Animal Boxing set is comparatively rare. Usually there are separate sets for each, but occasionally you do find a combined form.
Such as this Hung Fut combined ten animal set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijjb3D3K5cQ
From what I read online these sets come directly from Hung Gar, does anyone know who or where the Hung Gar portion of the Hung Fut system came from?
Interesting it lists the ten animals as 龍,蛇,虎,豹,鶴,獅,象,馬,猴,刁. Meaning Dragon, Snake, Tiger, Leopard, Crane and Lion, Elephant, Horse, Monkey, and 刁 Diao which isn't an animal, the character has the meaning or tricky, underhanded, sly deceitful, or wicked. I am guessing that this comes from the similarity in sound to 彪 Biao, Tiger cub or Golden Jungle Cat. Although I also wonder if those characteristics are traditionally associated with this animal.

Here are the individual ten animal forms from the Ha Say Fu Ten Animal style Hung Gar.

Five Upper Shapes:
from the Maonan district of Maoming prefecture

Dragon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwrL_aMC_dM

Snake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NrOjCI8MKc

Tiger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Xxl_TM70I

Leopard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCFnNQhKXjM

Crane:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxqh1sREiBs

Five Lower Shapes:
from Gaozhou county of Maoming prefecture, demonstrated by master Lei Cheung Tim

Lion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2PZwPNd29s

Elephant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82VXbSm1670

Horse:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96ZelRD8-vw

Monkey:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3rvstUOpGk

Tiger Cub / Jungle Cat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVgEPqEUYbs

[Ben Gash]

One of the Hung Gar systems I studied had a 10 animals form, and Choy Li Fut has two. I believe LKFMDC's CLF has one.

[lkfmdc]

One of the Hung Gar systems I studied had a 10 animals form, and Choy Li Fut has two. I believe LKFMDC's CLF has one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWTz2IkVmU0

I am NOT responsible for the music choices here :D

[LaterthanNever]

TeaSerpent,

"on the five lower animals depending on the style or lineage. But the ones you posted are the same as found In Hung Fut and in the ten animal Hung Gar practiced in the Ha Say Fu region"

Excellent input..thank you. Re: Ha Say Fu being a 10 animal. I was under the impression that the HSF Hung Kuen only had 5 like the LSW/TF lineages but the main difference is that there is a separate set for each of the 5 animals. Are you saying this is not true? If so, there does not seem to be any masters in the States who teach the remaining 5 animals in either solo sets or in a combination set.

When you state "lower" animals, am I to understand that lower in this case refers to less often seen?

[Ben Gash]

TeaSerpent,

"on the five lower animals depending on the style or lineage. But the ones you posted are the same as found In Hung Fut and in the ten animal Hung Gar practiced in the Ha Say Fu region"

Excellent input..thank you. Re: Ha Say Fu being a 10 animal. I was under the impression that the HSF Hung Kuen only had 5 like the LSW/TF lineages but the main difference is that there is a separate set for each of the 5 animals. Are you saying this is not true? If so, there does not seem to be any masters in the States who teach the remaining 5 animals in either solo sets or in a combination set.

When you state "lower" animals, am I to understand that lower in this case refers to less often seen?

Watch the videos in post #25 ;)

[No_Know]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/4805312319/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1634&creative=6738&creativeASIN=4805312319&linkCode=as2&tag=wwwkendoinfon-21

I think this book by Kwan Tak Hing goes on about the Hung family and its fists...could that be the lead?? His foster father was Fok Hung,

I think the ten animals of this intended book [as I tried the link and got a kendo something]...The Intended Book (perhaps) (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shaolin-Ten-animal-Form-Kwan-Hing/dp/962728405X/ref=sr_1_23?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1373286961&sr=1-23&keywords=animal+kung+fu)

This book featuring that actor uses the Shao-lin /Choyli-Fut/Hung kuen five, but includes might also include a Bear form. Hsing-I might have a bear form as well as Ba Gua, but it might not be a Hung-Fot 10 animals--those were mentioned earlier perhaps if you include the substitute for the tiger-cub.

No_Know

[Tea Serpent]

TeaSerpent,

"on the five lower animals depending on the style or lineage. But the ones you posted are the same as found In Hung Fut and in the ten animal Hung Gar practiced in the Ha Say Fu region"

Excellent input..thank you. Re: Ha Say Fu being a 10 animal. I was under the impression that the HSF Hung Kuen only had 5 like the LSW/TF lineages but the main difference is that there is a separate set for each of the 5 animals. Are you saying this is not true? If so, there does not seem to be any masters in the States who teach the remaining 5 animals in either solo sets or in a combination set.

When you state "lower" animals, am I to understand that lower in this case refers to less often seen?

The term 下四府 Ha Say Fu literally means Lower Four Prefectures. With today's advances in infrastructure and communication, despite an increase of many fold in population density the world is a functionally smaller place. So most of the older prefectural divisions have been redrawn, so the old four prefectures of Qing times are today's Zhanjiang and Maoming prefectures (also today they use the word
州 Zhou rather than the older 府 Fu).
So basically Ha Say Fu just describes an area within guangdong. Specifically the far southwestern corner. Zhanjiang is the Leizhou Peninsula that stretches to towards the island of Hainan. Maoming is the area it attaches to at the base, bordering Guangxi province.
Kwong Wing Lam changed the writing of the name to 下四虎 Lower Four Tigers, which has the same pronunciation in Cantonese although not in Mandarin. He did this because that is not a traditionally used term and is his own invention, so he would be able to register the name as a trademark. (unfortunately this type of **** has become a major trend in martial arts with people like Richard Clear copyrighting "One Touch Knockout" and Sam Chin copyrighting, well everything he possibly can, but that is a completely different topic).
So basically "Ha Say Fu Hung Gar just describes Hung Gar from Maoming or Zhanjiang. Hung Gar is extremely popular in those areas especially because of historical events. In 1898 the french demanded that the Chinese grant them Concessions including a hundred year lease of an area encompassing Guangzhou bay and stretching over 35 miles inland in very direction.
The people sent many petitions to the government leaders, however the local government officials had already been bribed by the French and the imperial government in Beijing was too weak and corrupt to even try to help, So the French demands were accepted.
During this period a local Hung Men leader Wu Bong Jaak who had been training the local militia in his town, stood up to fight the french. He organized the training of militias across Zhanjiang and organized a successful resistance. The resistance troops would fly banners stamped with the character for gold, representing Wu Bong Jaak's saying "Every inch of our land is as valuable as pure gold".
In the end they were able to force the french into only accepting an area of 10 miles inland as opposed to the 35 originally granted.
Several different Hung Gar schools were involved in this struggle. These schools are still around today. Even after that the Hung Gar schools in the area continued working for the people, organizing underground resistance against the occupying Japanese during WWII, and helping on occasions of natural disaster to keep law and order, prevent looting, and donate and distribute clean food and water and medical aid to the local people.

Sorry kind of went off on a tangent, but back to your actual questions, most schools in the area practice ten animal sets. But this doesn't mean that all of them do.
The Upper/Lower thing doesn't necessarily mean that one is less common. I would assume that the Upper five animals refers to the fact that those are the animals usually considered to be the core of Hung Gar and most other Guangdong "Southern Shaolin" styles. In opposition to the lower animals which are part of the system, but not necessarily core components?
As for Kwong Wing Lam, His stuff seems pretty in line with what is usually seen from the area. It could be that the lineage he learned only had the five animals.
But when reading his accounts of learning the style it could also be that the man he was learning it from simply didn't teach them to him. If you think about it he wasn't his main teacher but was teaching him as a favor to his teacher. So he in that sense while LSW was learning from him he wasn't really a disciple, also he only learned from him for a relatively short time. K.W.L. also wasn't from the same area and although it isn't said most of the old established historical schools of Hung Gar are all tied into the Hung Men or similar societies, so not being from the same area it is almost certain that K.W.L. wasn't in the same hall / lodge / branch or whatever you want to call it that he was. So it wouldn't be surprising if he didn't teach him everything, in fact it would be very surprising if he did.
So it could be that the lineage he happened to learn from only had the five animals, but it is also likely that he only learned those five.

There is no one that I'm aware of that teaches Ten Animal Hung Gar in the U.S., although it doesn't mean that no one does.
But Zhanjiang and Maoming are more rural and you probably aren't going to see a lot of people from that area in the U.S. either.
Also the term Hay Say Fu is still used to describe the area, but it is an older term. If you are trying to find a teacher you would probably have better luck looking for either Ten Animal Hung Gar / Hung Kuen, or Zhanjiang / Maoming Hung Gar / Hung Kuen.

[Howard]

Lam Sai Wing changed the writing of the name to 下四虎 Lower Four Tigers, which has the same pronunciation in Cantonese although not in Mandarin. He did this because that is not a traditionally used term and is his own invention, so he would be able to register the name as a trademark. (unfortunately this type of **** has become a major trend in martial arts with people like Richard Clear copyrighting "One Touch Knockout" and Sam Chin copyrighting, well everything he possibly can, but that is a completely different topic).


Are you sure that the reference to Lam Sai Wing is correct in your post ? (seems more like your referring to Kwong Wing Lam ?)

[Tea Serpent]

Are you sure that the reference to Lam Sai Wing is correct in your post ? (seems more like your referring to Kwong Wing Lam ?)

yeah sorry, sleep deprivation does that.

[Alex Córdoba]

10 animals of southern kung fu

tiger
crane
leopard
snake
dragon

elephant
monkey
horse
lion
tiger cub

No donkey?

[LaterthanNever]

Thanks all for your fine commentary. I'm clear on the animals aspect. Thanks. To reiterate my original question..


Does anyone have a list of Hung Fut forms? Thanks again.

LTN