Is JKD and MMA the same thing basically?

[KungFubar]

Since they are choosing the best of techniques and combinging them?

[Kymus]

Not really. JKD is often misunderstood as a collaboration of "whatever works" and one's "individual way", but it really isn't.

JKD is based around Wing Chun, Boxing, and Savate, mostly. There is a curriculum, set movements, set punches and kicks, and a certification process for instructors.

MMA is generally a mish mash of stand up and grappling. The popular secret sauce these days is Muay Thai and BJJ, but really, it can be anything. I believe San Da is becoming more popular now and more people are turning to that.

addendum: basically every style claims to contain only "the best" techniques. IMO, that's a load of sh!t.

[Miqi]

Sports fighting and self-defence are what, in philosophy, would be called different "problematics" - that is, different puzzles that one is trying to solve. These two problematics are related in many ways, and different in others. Consequently there are a lot of people who have/had interests in both.

JKD, in its simplest sense, is the search for what works, for you, primarily in terms of self defence. This means that lots of techniques which can't be used in MMA due to rules restrictions might actually be very important in JKD. It also means many people who possibly couldn't or don't want to do MMA, like people who are disabled, out of condition or just not interested, can learn self-defence techniques which - hopefully - work for them within a JKD curriculum. They could within MMA, I guess, but on a specialist course that looks more like JKD...

So in short, no. JKD - in theory - focuses on self defence and straightforwardly effective techniques in a no or limited rules scenario as its core curriculum. (In reality, a lot of the added fillipino stuff looks very fussy and not simple to me). MMA focuses on what is effective within a specific set of rules. And yet, there are cross-overs between the two, and one would expect that many MMA guys have a good knowledge of self-defence techniques beyond their competitive rule set.

[MightyB]

I'd say JKD isn't supposed to be anything after reading BL's books, but he did have a core curriculum he described that's described in this thread. I don't think he had the time to build on it because he died too young... but everything I read lead me to believe that JKD was supposed to be a philosophy you adopt AFTER you spent time learning a core traditional art - the whole canoe across the river but don't carry the canoe once you're on the other shore. Then you were supposed to strip it away to it's fighting essence and cross train and borrow to fill any gaps you perceived.

So yes, in a way MMA is the same as JKD.

[tc101]

Since they are choosing the best of techniques and combinging them?

Mma is a contest and jkd a method of training so they are two different things.

[YouKnowWho]

Sports fighting and self-defence are...

I have issue with the term "self-defence". In "self-defence", do you land your fist on your opponent's face exactly the same way as you do in "sport fighting"?

[Kymus]

I'd say JKD isn't supposed to be anything after reading BL's books, but he did have a core curriculum he described that's described in this thread. I don't think he had the time to build on it because he died too young... but everything I read lead me to believe that JKD was supposed to be a philosophy you adopt AFTER you spent time learning a core traditional art - the whole canoe across the river but don't carry the canoe once you're on the other shore. Then you were supposed to strip it away to it's fighting essence and cross train and borrow to fill any gaps you perceived.

So yes, in a way MMA is the same as JKD.

JKD isn't a cut and dry issue, unfortunately. Due to this, there's many different answers as to what JKD is. I barely read any of BL's book, but I trained in JKD. All I can really say based on what I know is that:


JKD was taught to me as a set style. My teachers were certified by Guro Dan Inosanto, who was - at least supposedly - certified by BL
I haven't been to any other JKD schools, but looking on YouTube, I do get the impression that there is some influence that comes in from other arts.


Then there's the issue of Jun Fan/JKD/JKD concepts. I'm not an authority on JKD as a whole, only what I learned in class, but still... it's my understanding that each means something different.

[tc101]

I have issue with the term "self-defence". In "self-defence", do you land your fist on your opponent's face exactly the same way as you do in "sport fighting"?

Excellent way of putting it.

[MightyB]

From Tao of Jeet Kune Do:


"I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds. Remember that Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". . . Jeet Kune Do is not an organized institution that one can be a member of. Either you understand or you don't, and that is that.
There is no mystery about my style. My movements are simple, direct and non-classical. The extraordinary part of it lies in its simplicity. Every movement in Jeet Kune-Do is being so of itself. There is nothing artificial about it. I always believe that the easy way is the right way. Jeet Kune-Do is simply the direct expression of one's feelings with the minimum of movements and energy. The closer to the true way of Kung Fu, the less wastage of expression there is.
Finally, a Jeet Kune Do man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it. He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance, in this case anchored down to reactionary pattern, and naturally is still bound by another modified pattern and can move within its limits. He has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive.
Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back.

[sanjuro_ronin]

MMA is what JKD is suppose to have been.

[KungFubar]

Isnt JKD certification and cirriculum go against the whole concept of JKD and what Bruce Lee said?

Also, what Im getting out of this thread is this:

True JKD actually is Mixed Martial Arts but it is not to be confused with MMA because MMA while the letters stand for the same thing is the name of a specific sport with rules.

So there is the literal Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) and then there is the sport called Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) that seems to be where the confusion comes in.

Also JKD while it is supposed to be a mixture of martial arts defined only by the practitioner has become the opposite of what BL intended it to be, namely a style with cirriculum and certifications.

Am i getting close here?

[MightyB]

Am i getting close here?

You must first understand this:





http://cache.jezebel.com/assets/images/13242/2010/01/sweatpantsninja.jpg


To understand all!

[Kymus]

You must first understand this:





http://cache.jezebel.com/assets/images/13242/2010/01/sweatpantsninja.jpg


To understand all!

That's deep, bro

[Kymus]

I did some reading, and it seems to be like this..

There are two main branches:

JKD and JKD Concepts

One teaches only what Bruce Lee taught, the other teaches what Bruce Lee taught and adds in their own flavors as well.

Jeet Kune Do - it seems - is designed to be a foundation for one to then reach out from and adapt with.

So in a way, yes, JKD and MMA are kinda the same, but they're kinda not. They strive for something similar but in a different way.

Personally, I think it'd be great if more schools taught 2 or more arts. But this goes to the core of my fighting philosophy of change and adaptation and learning how to defend against different kinds of opponents and ensuring that you have the proper techniques for these kinds of opponents.

[YouKnowWho]

Am i getting close here?

- If you look at the moon, you will miss the finger.
- Don't just do something, stand there.

[Stickgrappler]

Hello:

*bows deeply*

As this is a Kung Fu forum, this may not be lost on members

I feel to claim JKD (despite BL saying forget the name and set curriculum) there has to be a lineage traceable back to BL.

Many of the JKD instructors can trace their lineage back to BL via Dan Inosanto or his students e.g. Paul Vunak, Cass Magda, Chris Kent, Jerry Poteet, Larry Hartsell, etc.

Otherwise, why even call it JKD?

Can you use the JKD Philosophy? I think so. MMA is IMO JKD Philosophy in action.

~sg

[David Jamieson]

Hello:

*bows deeply*

As this is a Kung Fu forum, this may not be lost on members

I feel to claim JKD (despite BL saying forget the name and set curriculum) there has to be a lineage traceable back to BL.

Many of the JKD instructors can trace their lineage back to BL via Dan Inosanto or his students e.g. Paul Vunak, Cass Magda, Chris Kent, Jerry Poteet, Larry Hartsell, etc.

Otherwise, why even call it JKD?

Can you use the JKD Philosophy? I think so. MMA is IMO JKD Philosophy in action.

~sg

JKD is a concept, NOT a style.

JKD is about using your art no matter what it is. TO internalize your art form and to know it intrinsically and extrinsically.

JKD applies to mma, boxing, kung fu, fencing, karate, wrestling, you name it and you can employ the concept to free yourself to use that within your art that YOU find most usable.

lineage in jkd is laughable in that sense. Even BL taught Jun Fan kung fu (his own style because he didn't actually have a style that he could lay claim to) as a foundation. It was only afterwards taht he would give the concept to already established martial artists.

Over time, people want to associate themselves with him, make themselves famous through association and then make claims of having inherited jkd...:rolleyes:

The bottom line is still this in martial arts: Repetition is the mother of skill.

[Stickgrappler]

I agree it's a concept - and again although BL didn't want a style, it is a style per se even as you noted. The set curriculum that Dan Inosanto called Jun Fan Gung Fu is what BL set as the foundation. Others have been labelled "Original JKD" while doing that foundation.

I may be doing what the JKD concept is all about by absorbing what is useful to me, but i shouldn't call what i do JKD as I have no affiliation/no lineage/no connection whatsoever to BL. I'll just calle it Stickgrappler-do or Stickgrappler-Kuen or Stickgrappler-Pai. Why bother to even mention JKD?

As you noted, to cash in is probably the biggest reason.

This is one topic that will argued from both sides until infinity sadly.

[KungFubar]

I agree it's a concept - and again although BL didn't want a style, it is a style per se even as you noted. The set curriculum that Dan Inosanto called Jun Fan Gung Fu is what BL set as the foundation. Others have been labelled "Original JKD" while doing that foundation.

I may be doing what the JKD concept is all about by absorbing what is useful to me, but i shouldn't call what i do JKD as I have no affiliation/no lineage/no connection whatsoever to BL. I'll just calle it Stickgrappler-do or Stickgrappler-Kuen or Stickgrappler-Pai. Why bother to even mention JKD?

As you noted, to cash in is probably the biggest reason.

This is one topic that will argued from both sides until infinity sadly.


I thought JKD means 'no style' so why shouldnt you call what you do JKD? In other words if you arent using a specific style then it can be called JKD? Wasnt that BLs whole message? Q: What style do you practice? A: no style just my own thing aka JKD? No?

[Stickgrappler]

Technically JKD means 'intercepting fist way'

My issue is why even call it JKD of the 'thing' you do? Call it "Kungfubar-Do" or "kungfubar-Pai"

That should be 'your own thing'... jkd's is BL's own thing. Know what i mean?

[Kymus]

Over time, people want to associate themselves with him, make themselves famous through association and then make claims of having inherited jkd...:rolleyes:

So Dan Inosanto was never certified as a full instructor under Bruce Lee? :confused:

It's my understanding that Dan Inosanto was the only person to receive the 3rd level (full instructor) and I think it was Ted Wong (?) that was level 2 before Bruce Lee died and Dan Inosanto promoted him to full instructor.


JKD is a concept, NOT a style.

JKD is about using your art no matter what it is. TO internalize your art form and to know it intrinsically and extrinsically.

JKD applies to mma, boxing, kung fu, fencing, karate, wrestling, you name it and you can employ the concept to free yourself to use that within your art that YOU find most usable.

In general, JKD is not just whatever. It has specific techniques, specific strategies, and a base. I learned it from Sifu Rick Tucci, who is certified under Dan Inosanto. JKD can exist as a specific style (Chinese kickboxing with some Wing Chun thrown in) or it can be used as a frame to build off of and see what works for you.

Lots of JKD teachers add in some influences from other styles, but every time I've seen JKD, it looks like JKD.

[Kymus]

Technically JKD means 'intercepting fist way'

My issue is why even call it JKD of the 'thing' you do? Call it "Kungfubar-Do" or "kungfubar-Pai"

That should be 'your own thing'... jkd's is BL's own thing. Know what i mean?

I agree. Calling whatever one does JKD is not accurate. JKD is Bruce Lee's method, and that method is built upon a specific foundation.

[Kymus]

I thought JKD means 'no style' so why shouldnt you call what you do JKD? In other words if you arent using a specific style then it can be called JKD? Wasnt that BLs whole message? Q: What style do you practice? A: no style just my own thing aka JKD? No?

Jeet Kune Do has a set foundation: Wing Chun, Savate, and Boxing, mostly.

Jeet Kune Do has a certification process. The only thing is, is that most JKD instructors (at least the ones I've seen) all cross train. My instructor does BJJ, Capoeira, Savate, Silat, Muay Thai, and Escrima/Kali in addition to JKD. It's likely that some of that got put in to his JKD curriculum. But at the end of the day, JKD is a specific thing; whether it's a foundation to finding one's way or as a set art. It's not just whatever.

JKD is a term, and as such, it is used to describe something. Like Stickgrappler said, JKD means "Way of the intercepting fist". In JKD we train primarily with punching, kicking, and trapping/locking.

[KungFubar]

Technically JKD means 'intercepting fist way'

My issue is why even call it JKD of the 'thing' you do? Call it "Kungfubar-Do" or "kungfubar-Pai"

That should be 'your own thing'... jkd's is BL's own thing. Know what i mean?

yes i get what you mean but the moment you call it something like Kungfubar Chuan it becomes a set style which goes against the essence of jkd which is 'no style'. using no style as style. no particular style. To say other is to undo everything that BL was trying to accomplish to end style vs style.

[KungFubar]

I agree. Calling whatever one does JKD is not accurate. JKD is Bruce Lee's method, and that method is built upon a specific foundation.

would bruce lee agree with this statement?

[Kymus]

would bruce lee agree with this statement?

Beats me; but it seems that Dan Inosanto does; he's closest thing we'll ever get.

[Kymus]

yes i get what you mean but the moment you call it something like Kungfubar Chuan it becomes a set style which goes against the essence of jkd which is 'no style'. using no style as style. no particular style. To say other is to undo everything that BL was trying to accomplish to end style vs style.

What is JKD but a framework based on what Bruce Lee felt worked best for him?

By giving it your name, it's your way; you make no qualms about it being anything else for anyone else.

Terms are important for distinction. In Martial Arts, terminology is important; it helps to distinguish what something is. We can use MMA as an example. MMA generally includes BJJ and Muay Thai, but not everyone does it, and not everyone that does Muay Thai and BJJ then does MMA. MMA is a broad term used to define - generally - straightforward, very hands-on arts. But there are still some things that people look for in what is called MMA, like wrestling. Like I mentioned in another thread, Master Su Yu-Chang teaches something like 10 different arts, all traditional Chinese arts. If he opened a school and called it MMA (which is it, it's a combination of a number of different arts), he'd most likely catch flack for that.

So in this sense, JKD defines the framework that Bruce Lee designed and taught based on what worked best for him. Some JKD teachers may add in influences from other arts, but unless you radically change the movements, it's still JKD: boxing, savate, and wing chun, mostly.

[mawali]

Absorb what is useful to one's ability then eschew the rest since it serves no purpose. How simple can that be but that is an oversimplification.

If you can't kick then don't try. make sure your hands are better, faster, etc
If you want to learn how to kick, work smarter, harder and based on that, train accordingly with incorporation of said kick.

[lance]

Since they are choosing the best of techniques and combinging them? KungFubar , to me JKD and MMA is 2 - different martial arts . MMA as the way I see it is basically a combination of muay thai , judo , and jujitsu . I see MMA all over the youtube and on cable tv , so I know what it is ? Muay Thai is good the kicking is all there and you have punches like western boxing , and you can use elbows too . But , muay thai is limited with striking techniques , like backfist , palm strike and other striking arsenal . But since you judo and jujutsu the ground work is completely covered there . And besides the punches , hooks , upper cuts and elbows , you can ' t use palm strikes or backfist like the striking art do . I ' m not putting down muay thai , but it ' s the way I see it .

JKD is basically bruce lee ' s own personal legacy , which really contains everything which was basically workable for bruce himself . We ' re not bruce and bruce is not us , so we all have to adapt with the techniques bruce himself incorporated into his personal JKD . But ! Yeah ! I do agree that JKD is misleading , but yes , it ' s really incorporating techniques from different martial arts in general which is bascally useful for you . And JKD is basically wing chun , boxing and fencing . Because , the stances which are used in JKD is from fencing , the way the JKD people guard their bodies when when facing an opponent is boxing , but the hand techniques is from wing chun . In JKD the taun sao is ' nt used , but certain JKD people use it in their JKD . And JKD uses punching , striking , throwing , kicking , elbows , and grappling . So MMA is half of JKD . And escrima sticks too , since bruce learned escrima from Dan .

Like the grappling section , if the opponent were to grapple with me , I would do anything to get out of the opponents' grappling move , by doing anything I can use striking him in the face , you see if I were to use grappling on the opponent himself , it can turn out to be a chess game . And I can get tired and the opponent may in turn have the advantage over me . So to reallly avoid this things from happening to me , I would get out of the opponents' grappling move or hold the minute I get the chance otherwise I ' m in trouble already .

If you ever saw youtube interviews on people who really trained with bruce himself in JKD and MMA people , you can tell the differences already . But ! yeah ! According to dana white the man incharge of MMA said that Bruce Lee was the father of MMA . This is just my own perspective on JKD and MMA .

[Fa Xing]

It's actually Modified Wing Chun, Modified Western Boxing, and Modified Western Fencing. There is no Savate per-say, however, that doesn't mean he didn't like a technique from it. Bruce did a lot of research but JKD is not a mish-mash of styles, it's hardly a mish-mash of techniques.

There is a set curriculum that is taught in the beginning, after that it is about mastery. The older I get the more I think about how mastery is the art of simplifying what you know and do.

It should also be noted that I have never seen any other person develop, or pass down the way Bruce did the Straight Lead, and Pendulum Kicks. Those were Bruce's creations based on what he learned from training, and researching.

JKD and MMA have similar beginnings, in that both sprouted in response to the MA climate of Mouth-boxing. Bruce's goal was to find the simplest, most effective means to achieve victory in combat (which eventually came down to the art of fighting without fighting). It was as much of a spiritual journey for him as it was martially.

However, in terms of technical skill and structure, and combat philosophy, the two can be very different. It is important to note that MMA is a garbage-can term for what people do in a ring/cage. It's up to the individual.

Happy training.

[Dragonzbane76]

Like the grappling section , if the opponent were to grapple with me , I would do anything to get out of the opponents' grappling move , by doing anything I can use striking him in the face , you see if I were to use grappling on the opponent himself , it can turn out to be a chess game . And I can get tired and the opponent may in turn have the advantage over me . So to reallly avoid this things from happening to me , I would get out of the opponents' grappling move or hold the minute I get the chance otherwise I ' m in trouble already .

lol you make it sound so easy. many of the positioning of JJ/BJJ are lock down movements, containment movements, etc. It's not that easy. I would suggest going and trying what you purpose on someone of skill in that area. You'll find it's not that easy to just "get out".
their is no magic answer to the grappling equation such as you suggest. Yes "getting out" is the goal but just striking someone or biting, eye gouge, etc. or what ever is not as easy as you think from the positioning that grappling puts you in. grappling is about dominant position in most cases and it very hard to strike from a lot of those positions if you are in the opposite side of receiving.
learning grappling and how to nullify a lot of it is determinant on knowledge in that area and experience in doing it.

[Dragonzbane76]

and MMA as in sport fighting is a rule set not a system

[lance]

lol you make it sound so easy. many of the positioning of JJ/BJJ are lock down movements, containment movements, etc. It's not that easy. I would suggest going and trying what you purpose on someone of skill in that area. You'll find it's not that easy to just "get out".
their is no magic answer to the grappling equation such as you suggest. Yes "getting out" is the goal but just striking someone or biting, eye gouge, etc. or what ever is not as easy as you think from the positioning that grappling puts you in. grappling is about dominant position in most cases and it very hard to strike from a lot of those positions if you are in the opposite side of receiving.
learning grappling and how to nullify a lot of it is determinant on knowledge in that area and experience in doing it. Dragonzbane , you pretty smart in replying to my topic post without putting my name on , but I know pretty much what I ' ve written , anyway , you ' re entitiled to your own individual opinion anyway .

You see if someone got you into a choke hold from the back , and really bought you down , before you end up tapping out or choking out , you would use another technique of your choice to really get out of it right ? Because you know about grappling more than I do right ? So for you it' s either you ' re going to survive or get choked out or tap out right ? Even when you get out of the choke hold you either going break the opponents arm or leg right ? And what if your opponent counters your moves right . You said I make it look easy ? Well chances are you ' ll never know what your opponents going to do right ? As far as I know unless you knock the opponent out , the fight is going to go on and on , before you know it , either one of you going to be lying on the ground .

I know that grappling is like the way you describe it right ? And I can believe that what you say about grappling is right ? For me reality is that I ' m not going to let the opponent choke me out , or break my my leg or arm , I ' m going to survive . sound easy right ? But got to try otherwise I ' ll be a victim , but I don ' t want to be a victim , so I would try to survive . I know alot of guys who grapple too , they ended up submiting to their opponent . If you can choke the opponent out good or break the opponents arm great , but what if the opponent ends up retaliating against you . That is where the battle can go and on . Where does the battle end ? That ' s why I wrote what I wrote on my topic . If you still think I ' m joking well that ' s you not me .

Even jerry poteet said the way you fight standing up , is the same way you can fight on the ground . And if you don ' t know who that is , then I don ' t know you too .

[Dragonzbane76]

hey man, what ever floats your boat....