Why do...

[MightyB]

Why do Northern Stylists hold their long weapons left hand forward while Southern stylists hold theirs right hand forward?

Just curious.

[bawang]

main reasons are southerners don't switch grip, and physical weakness.

[Lucas]

you can tell that bawang has great love for southerners

[David Jamieson]

Are you talking specifically about thrusting position?

[Kellen Bassette]

you can tell that bawang has great love for southerners

He thinks the Cantonese are just one step above the filthy Gwai Lo...

[lkfmdc]

it really depends which hand you jerk with

[ngokfei]

hard to say. Primarily Southern Stylists Spear usually are quite similiar to how they do their Staff/Pole Sets.

I can remember doing a tournament in the hey day of Chinese martial arts. One thing being done was to see the 1st 3 competitors, have a judges gathering to get a census on where to place them to set a reasonable scoring range. 2 competitors were northern and and the 3rd a southern. the other 2 judges beside myself was 2 well known Sifu. One a CLF and the other a MJLH. Anyow the northern judge made a statement that the southern competitor didn't know how to use a spear. It turned out to a student of the CLF judge. Of all things I voiced my opinion (after only studying southern for 2 years) about the differences between southern and northern spear, etc. etc. After the division the CLF teacher came over and thanked me, quite flattered as he is such a well known teacher and I consider very senior to me in years and experience.

so back to this.

Now getting beyond David's Jerking off reference (which he has multiple rankings in and a large scrap book of, his teacher CTS was famous for his staff and spear skills especially since he had strong southern and northern backgroound, so if David can remember any of it from him it could be informative

[MightyB]

hard to say. Primarily Southern Stylists Spear usually are quite similiar to how they do their Staff/Pole Sets.


I've never had a good answer to this question. I think it lends some proof that the Southern and Northern arts were developed indigenously. There's a good blog that I came across that the author has some interesting theories on the development of the Hung and Hakka arts (posted it in the Bak Mei thread). Wing Chun is an anomaly to him.

Anyway, not sure why I'm thinking about this - I guess it stems from the Shaolin thread I was trolling and thinking about common ancestry... but, looking at characteristics of the styles and reading different sources - things get muddy. Southern arts claim a southern Shaolin temple burning that probably didn't happen and they don't really do Shaolin which is northern kung fu...

And seriously - how did Yue Fei have so much time to develop so many styles? He didn't exactly live a peaceful life of rest and leisure and he certainly didn't live to a ripe old age to ponder much...

Look at the Guan Dao. No one "rides a horse" in the North. So did the South take a literary inspiration in the development of that form???

I guess this thread is more of a "things that make me go hmmmm" thread.

[ngokfei]

in the end its truly MMA world wide.

So much blending over the years, especially in the larger systems.

Yue Fei is the equivalent of George Washington. Historically some truth may exist as many of the styles/systems/methods are attributed to his soldiers who have been shown in other instances to bring back whatever they might have learned home with them when they retired, etc.

[bawang]

I've never had a good answer to this question.
do you have a cactus stuck to your face. I just answered your dam question.



Look at the Guan Dao. No one "rides a horse" in the North.

da dao is a cavalry weapon.

[SoCo KungFu]

Why do Northern Stylists hold their long weapons left hand forward while Southern stylists hold theirs right hand forward?

Just curious.

I've seen northern sets with right hand forward. It depends on the weapon and intent in the attack. Instead of differentiating it by north and south, I think its more accurate to say that methods favoring thrusts place right hand rear and methods favoring striking place right hand forward. And if it seems like a north vs south thing then its a byproduct of the difference in usage above. Basically playing on the right arm being the "strong" arm.

Or its which ever hand you jerk with...what do I know?

[MightyB]

da dao is a cavalry weapon.

I'm talking strictly about the routines. Southern styles have a section where they mimic riding a horse. You don't see that in Northern routines.

[SoCo KungFu]

I'm talking strictly about the routines. Southern styles have a section where they mimic riding a horse. You don't see that in Northern routines.

That's because we mimic skipping across a battlefield instead.

[MightyB]

That's because we mimic skipping across a battlefield instead.

LOL

True Dat!

[David Jamieson]

I'm talking strictly about the routines. Southern styles have a section where they mimic riding a horse. You don't see that in Northern routines.

yeah...I've seen this. Not a fan.
Waste of energy and brings nothing to the efficacy of the weapon...

Mind you...there are a lot of superfluous moves in weapons forms. Even when you come to understand them, you realize and say to yourself, why the heck was that put in there. Utter bollocks...etc. ;)

[bawang]

I'm talking strictly about the routines. Southern styles have a section where they mimic riding a horse. You don't see that in Northern routines.

because northern da dao form is legit dismounted drill from military. southern form is from opera.

[David Jamieson]

because northern da dao form is legit dismounted drill from military. southern form is from opera.

you say that a if there is only one form. lol

I have a kwan do set and there is no hopping on horse mimcry.

It's all step and chop pretty straight up.

Now, there is another set I am familiar with that does have the horse riding skippity hop and yes...I don't care much for it, but it also includes some effective use of the weapon woven in.

[bawang]

It's all step and chop pretty straight up.


da dao is not "step and chop".

[Kellen Bassette]

Wing Chun is an anomaly to him.

It is to us all....

[YouKnowWho]

main reasons are southerners don't switch grip, and physical weakness.
Bawang is right! To slid your hands along the staff is a very important training in the nothern staff.

The

- northern staff is 2 heads staff. You divide your staff by 3 equal parts. Your hands hold on 1/3 and 2/3 positions. The advantage of this is you can not only attack by both ends. if you release one end, you can have 2/3 maximum reach on both ends.
- southern staff is 1 head staff. The hold is only on one end. The advantage of this is you can always have the maximum reach.

I had asked this question to the "New MA Hero" magazine in H.K many years ago. Their answer was the southern staff supposed to be spear but without the spear head.

[bawang]

- northern staff is 2 heads staff. You divide your staff by 3 equal parts. Your hands hold on 1/3 and 2/3 positions. The advantage of this is you can not only attack by both ends. if you release one end, you can have 2/3 maximum reach on both ends.
- southern staff is 1 head staff. The hold is only on one end. The advantage of this is you can always have the maximum reach.


northern staff switches grip.
spear grip
http://www.shaolin.org.cn/upload/fckeditor/09禅露夏63.jpg
sword grip
http://www.shaolin.org.cn/upload/fckeditor/09禅露冬61(1).jpg
great sword grip
http://www.shaolin.org.cn/upload/fckeditor/09禅露秋78.jpg
double head
http://www.shaolin.org.cn/upload/fckeditor/无标题-扫描-35(1).jpg

[RenDaHai]

I'm talking strictly about the routines. Southern styles have a section where they mimic riding a horse. You don't see that in Northern routines.

I haven't seen that before. There are a lot of unusual traditional footworks that may look a little strange but have their purpose, is it definitely to mimic riding the horse?

I'm assuming on horseback it may be necessary to switch grip to slash to both sides of the horse, but I don't ride and haven't really thought about it before. Its a good question....

[rett]

Patton (the general) wrote an army field manual on cavalry sabre. The only thing I remember from it offhand was the observation that the rear left is your weakest point (assuming you're right handed). The reason is obvious after a moment's thought.

Changing grip on a Da Dao while riding sounds awkward (it's big and heavy) and perhaps not something they'd do in a high-paced melee. So are there similar significant left-right differences in technique and ability? Anyone with access to manuals able to comment? Perhaps they would change grip in preparation for a charge for example if they are skimming the ragged edge of a fleeing group of footsoldiers and want to lop heads in the right direction. (I'm guessing no-one here has actually trained Da Dao on horseback, but that would be even more interesting!)

Also, about staff, the basic shaolin staff form I've learned uses both two-headed and one headed grips. Bawang's pics above reflect it perfectly, except that the staff I use is only eye-brow height.

It's not just that you can get longer range with the single head grip, you also can need and desire short range ability, such as an uppercut with the "back" end of the staff. Too long sux as much as too short, depending on the situation.

normal caveat... I obviously don't ever intend to fight people with sabres or staffs for real. I just find these discussions interesting, and enjoy training with staff.

[bawang]

Changing grip on a Da Dao while riding sounds awkward (it's big and heavy) and perhaps not something they'd do in a high-paced melee. So are there similar significant left-right differences in technique and ability? Anyone with access to manuals able to comment? Perhaps they would change grip in preparation for a charge for example if they are skimming the ragged edge of a fleeing group of footsoldiers and want to lop heads in the right direction. (I'm guessing no-one here has actually trained Da Dao on horseback, but that would be even more interesting!)

da dao is used in skirmishing like you described, riding past people. its not very good in close melee, so it was used by elite riders with fast horse and heavy armor.

a good example was during the imjin war. the entire imperial guard of 3000 riders were wiped out by the Japanese main force because they wondered too far away from camp and were trapped in mud.

[David Jamieson]

da dao is not "step and chop".

Sure, whatever you say bookworm. Lol, lemme know when you are swinging one and know some stuff with it and we can compare what "step and chop" means. :rolleyes:

lol

[David Jamieson]

da dao is used in skirmishing like you described, riding past people. its not very good in close melee, so it was used by elite riders with fast horse and heavy armor.

a good example was during the imjin war. the entire imperial guard of 3000 riders were wiped out by the Japanese main force because they wondered too far away from camp and were trapped in mud.

I's not a close melee weapon. It's a long weapon. So, still melee, most effective from atop a horse, but not a lot of difference from a halberd and that is where it's use in infantry tactics apply.

[lkfmdc]

I heard a legend a long time ago RE this, but legends are just that....

I've learned weapons with all three methods... and learned both 2 headed and singel headed staff

The one thing I will say, I have seen and experiened first hand more than enough to say that with two skilled people, SINGLE HEAD STAFF is better for real combat

[mawali]

Patton (the general) wrote an army field manual on cavalry sabre. The only thing I remember from it offhand was the observation that the rear left is your weakest point (assuming you're right handed). The reason is obvious after a moment's thought.
Anyone with access to manuals able to comment? Perhaps they would change grip in preparation for a charge for example if they are skimming the ragged edge of a fleeing group of footsoldiers and want to lop heads in the right direction. (I'm guessing no-one here has actually trained Da Dao on horseback, but that would be even more interesting!)


normal caveat... I obviously don't ever intend to fight people with sabres or staffs for real. I just find these discussions interesting, and enjoy training with staff.

I don't have access to manuals that I have seen but many weapons today have become so 'emasculated" that those who are not familiar or have an awareness of them, think that they were the same as battlefield weapons of yore! Look at present competition weapons, they are flexible, short, nice looking and often lacking the 'heaviness of original status. I see more relevance in halberd (Kwandao) usage and utility (weight, utility and deftness) as it allows for training actual movements as opposed to the sword, still good as hacking tool).

I am sure lance dimensions of yore and today are at opposite ends of the spectrum!:D

[bawang]

Sure, whatever you say bookworm. Lol, lemme know when you are swinging one and know some stuff with it and we can compare what "step and chop" means. :rolleyes:

lol

if you post video of you do da dao, i will post video of me do da dao. im not scare of you.

[David Jamieson]

if you post video of you do da dao, i will post video of me do da dao. im not scare of you.

I got a better idea, let's post pictures of our *****es.

[lkfmdc]

I got a better idea, let's post pictures of our *****es.

we're waiting

[David Jamieson]

we're waiting

where did you find a picture of a 1000foot tall scientist?

[bawang]

I got a better idea, let's post pictures of our *****es.

davi jamasons is scares. he not man enough to wield the mighty da dao.

[wenshu]

davi jamasons is scares. he not man enough to wield the mighty da dao.

otherwise known as "full blown ***** ain't **** syndrome"

[David Jamieson]

davi jamasons is scares. he not man enough to wield the mighty da dao.

lol. come come now. Just admit I upped the ante and that got you really worried.
:p

wenshu, quit being a weiny and post with your real account.

speaking of "***** ain't **** syndrome.

[bawang]

lol. come come now. Just admit I upped the ante and that got you really worried.
:p


I seen ur iron ring video, bro.

*shakes head

[YouKnowWho]

SINGLE HEAD STAFF is better for real combat

You can change from double heads into single head anytime you want to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS-zUw2xZy4&feature=youtu.be

[mooyingmantis]

I'm talking strictly about the routines. Southern styles have a section where they mimic riding a horse. You don't see that in Northern routines.

This is found in Hung Gar and CLF quando forms.

[Lucas]

http://www.kentperformancehorses.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/StickHorse.jpg

[Kellen Bassette]

if you post video of you do da dao, i will post video of me do da dao. im not scare of you.

I always imagine Bawang as looking like Sin The. If I see what he really looks like my whole perspective will be blown. :eek:

[lkfmdc]

You can change from double heads into single head anytime you want to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FS-zUw2xZy4&feature=youtu.be

every second is life or death in a real weapon fight, single head is faster, and by that I don't mean we don't use both ends but it is different method

[Kellen Bassette]

Make your da dao video in white face.

[lkfmdc]

Make your da dao video in white face.

if jamieson were any whiter, he'd blind us with teh bright light

[Kellen Bassette]

if jamieson were any whiter, he'd blind us with teh bright light

I meant Bawang...but it'd prolly be humorous if DJ did it too...

[wenshu]

wenshu, quit being a weiny and post with your real account.

which one?

[bawang]

every second is life or death in a real weapon fight, single head is faster, and by that I don't mean we don't use both ends but it is different method


depends on the stick. war staff is up to 8 feet long and war spear is up to 18 feet long.

[lkfmdc]

depends on the stick. war staff is up to 8 feet long and war spear is up to 18 feet long.

not sure what you are saying here?

speed doesn't matter with 8 foot staff?

[Lucas]

ya but if you have an 18 ft long pole, the odds of you needing to use both end will ne more scarce. if ur formation breaks and ur line is crossed drop the spear and draw ur sword

[PalmStriker]

ya but if you have an 18 ft long pole, the odds of you needing to use both end will ne more scarce. if ur formation breaks and ur line is crossed drop the spear and draw ur sword
Or use it to pole vault over the enemy.

[bawang]

not sure what you are saying here?

speed doesn't matter with 8 foot staff?

cant use double head if its 8 feet long