How parishable are wing chun skills?

[ZenMindT]

I've been training WC for just over 7 years, and in that time never missed training for more than a week or two at time, and that was very few and far between.

I've had to stop training for about 6 months due to unforeseen circumstances, and I'm not sure how long before I will return. I was just wonder just how perishable wing chun skills like sensitivity and reactivity are. I've rolled w/ guys that said that hadn't trained in while and they still had skills. But is it like riding a bike, where you never really forget? I do my best by doing SNT and empty jong (don't have a jong since i live in an apartment building :( ) but how fast will my touch sensitivity and reflexes diminish? I'm pretty sure my forearm conditioning is shot, and I will pretty much have to start over w/that.

Who out there has had to take long sabbaticals from training, and how did it effect your WC?

Thanks

[YouKnowWho]

Old TCMA saying said, "If you don't spar/wrestle for 3 days, your arms and legs will no longer be yours." Your judgement, timing will be off. There will be a delay between your brain tells you body what to do and your body respond to it. Of course this assume that you are at your prime.

You should alway try to take advantage on using your "scrap time" for solo training such as watching TV, walk on the street, go to bathroom, ... if you do treat TCMA training as your highest priority in your life.

[anerlich]

I believe the old TCMA saying to be incorrect. You will be sharper with daily practice, but IMO you retain skills at a usable level a fair bit longer than just a few days.

If this were not the case, I'd be looking for a method where the skill level dropoff were not so precipitous.

[ZenMindT]

Old TCMA saying said, "If you don't spar/wrestle for 3 days, your arms and legs will no longer be yours." Your judgement, timing will be off. There will be a delay between your brain tells you body what to do and your body respond to it. Of course this assume that you are at your prime.

You should alway try to take advantage on using your "scrap time" for solo training such as watching TV, walk on the street, go to bathroom, ... if you do treat TCMA training as your highest priority in your life.

Thank you for your reply.Taking advantage of scrap time is exactly what I have been doing, it's about all I can do at the moment.

I know muscle memory is not entirely diminishable. The neurological pathways we develop via training are similar to memories like peoples faces or the words to a song. You can still recall a song you haven't heard in long time, but might forget a few words, or remember a persons face you haven't seen in 10 years, just not w/ great detail. So 3 days is a little crazy. And I do practice forms and shadow box, which helps reinforce my muscle memory. What I'm not sure about is how time effects tactile awareness (touch sensitivity) and my reflex responses. It's one thing to know the moves, it's another to use them at the right moment (like you said, my timing will be off)

I'm just wondering how fast the decay takes, and how long it would take to get back to par with where i was before.

[YouKnowWho]

No matter how busy that you may be, you should at least train 4 moves as N, E, S, W 4 directions daily, when you need to use it, it will come out handy.

You can also use your mind to train if physical training is not possible.

[tc101]

I believe the old TCMA saying to be incorrect. You will be sharper with daily practice, but IMO you retain skills at a usable level a fair bit longer than just a few days.

If this were not the case, I'd be looking for a method where the skill level dropoff were not so precipitous.

I think a lot of these sayings are not meant to be taken literally though some people do take them that way. I think they are meant generally and that saying is to express that martial skills will decline with lack of practice.

I think this is a complicated topic and depends on many factors like your present performance level, the length of the lay off, the art you practice, if you stay fit or not during the lay off and so on.

[Kellen Bassette]

"3 days" is used to illustrate a point. If you have practiced a good deal, say several years, and then take a long sabbatical, you don't necessarily "lose" the skill, your body still remembers "how" (like riding a bike.)

HOWEVER.....your timing and distance will be shot. In essence, you will, for the most part, retain your skills, but there will be a delay in applying them in real time. This of course, may be enough to render the skills useless. Having your timing/distance a little off is a scary and frustrating thing.

Of course, if someone never regularly sparred/grappled, they will not have developed their timing/distance anyway, so it won't matter.

Your body may easily recall how to punch/deflect/whatever, but you may find a slight lag, which in sparring/fighting will make all the difference.

[BPWT]

Agree with the above post :)

I was out of Wing Tsun for a couple of years, but had access to some XingYi. My XingYi teacher always said I was Wing Tsun'izing my Xingyi. :D Sometimes what you learn really stays with you physically, no matter how hard you train something new.

When I came back to Wing Tsun (moved to a place where I could resume training), I slipped back into the way of things very quickly.

Of course it helped that in my time away I was still training a MA - so things like distance judgement and timing were not too rusty.

[Egg fu young]

I can't speak for WC skills but I will say that I was out of Judo for about 10 years and my first class back in a new dojo was a free sparring grapple class and we did a round robin at the end of it with everyone there, I was exhausted at the end but I submitted everyone.

Now...I'd taken Karate for 2 years up until 6 months ago and although I do bag work 2 times a week. I haven’t been practicing my Kata. About a month ago I decided to incorporate it back into my workouts and realized pretty quickly that I was really rusty and it took up until about last week to get back where I was when I'd left.

[ZenMindT]

Thank you all for your replies, some of you really hit the nail on the head as to what I was asking.

SKM,
As I stated in my previous post, I do forms when I can, I do empty jong because I don’t have a jong at my home. There is a gym at my job, so a few times a week I go down on my break and get in a quick work out, I want to at least maintain something close to my fitness level. It’s not that I’m not doing anything, I am just unable to get in partner training like chis sao and sparring, so I’m not getting that external stimulus that would keep my awareness and reflexes on point.

2nd question. Does anyone have any suggestions of solo training that would keep up skills like that. I’ve read in several sources that throwing a tennis ball against a wall (close range) and catching with variations like throwing it w/ eyes closed, or throwing it behind you and turning fast to catch it is good for training reactive reflexes and hand/eye coordination. It would be awesome if there was something similar for tactile awareness, but that doesn’t seem possible.

[YouKnowWho]

Does anyone have any suggestions of solo training that would keep up skills like that.

The best solo training is the partner training without partner. A left Tan Shou, right face punch followed by a right Tan Shou, left face punch can be a good combo.

[EternalSpring]

The best solo training is the partner training without partner. A left Tan Shou, right face punch followed by a right Tan Shou, left face punch can be a good combo.

good ol' tan-da. If you're alone it's nice to train it with a heavy bag too. I recently joined a gym and I have to say that I'm loving all the cool partner training stuff I can do w/ the heavy bag.

[anerlich]

"3 days" is used to illustrate a point.

And illustrates it badly!


I think a lot of these sayings are not meant to be taken literally

I think a lot of them are best ignored when accuracy seems to be of little consequence. And many are just cloaking the bleeding obvious with a veil of undeserved profundity in a failed attempt to make the person saying them seem smarter than they actually are.

[KungFubar]

At your level of training, you will retain the neuromuscular training that you have gained for several years and then it will start trailing off. You have to train 35+ years in order to have visceral retention of the training. My question for you is what prevents you from training on your own. If you know SLT, can you do SLT twenty times a day? You can do it in a corner of your bedroom. I am always surprised when people say they are unable to train. Unless you are in the hospital or jail, it should be possible to train daily. What are your thoughts on what I am saying? All the best.
SKM

do they allow SLT in jail? or does it cause some other problems?

[Kellen Bassette]

And many are just cloaking the bleeding obvious with a veil of undeserved profundity in a failed attempt to make the person saying them seem smarter than they actually are.

You've cracked the code.

[anerlich]

do they allow SLT in jail? or does it cause some other problems?

I don't know what might or might not be allowed - probably depends on a whole swag of things - but I don't know that I'd be advertising any martial arts I trained in in a prison.

[bogdan.sifu]

I've been training WC for just over 7 years, and in that time never missed training for more than a week or two at time, and that was very few and far between.

I've had to stop training for about 6 months due to unforeseen circumstances, and I'm not sure how long before I will return. I was just wonder just how perishable wing chun skills like sensitivity and reactivity are. I've rolled w/ guys that said that hadn't trained in while and they still had skills. But is it like riding a bike, where you never really forget? I do my best by doing SNT and empty jong (don't have a jong since i live in an apartment building :( ) but how fast will my touch sensitivity and reflexes diminish? I'm pretty sure my forearm conditioning is shot, and I will pretty much have to start over w/that.

Who out there has had to take long sabbaticals from training, and how did it effect your WC?

Thanks

I asked my Sifu the same thing when I had to leave for three months.

During that time, I trained the three forms, but not as much as I would have liked. The strange part was that when I came back I was actually stronger.

My pushing was better than ever.

[GlennR]

My pushing was better than ever.


Handy in a bob sled guess

[Sihing73]

Good question. It depends on the institution and what types of rehabilitative activity they allow. I had an interesting experience during the late 80's where I was invited to teach Tai Chi to lock-down inmates on G Block at Tishomingo Oklahoma. They were all murderers who would volunteer to me, without me asking, that if they had it to do over again, they would not have done what they did. The warden allowed them to train in Tai Chi. He did not allow other types of martial arts or weapons training. I think that situation is indicative of what some wardens will allow insofar as training. Regarding SLT itself, it would be a very effective art to train in the cramped space of a cell. There is violence to the extreme in prison. One young man in particular said he had seen a man killed over a pack of cigarettes. Harsh realities in prison. SLT would be quite effective in that environment. Hope I have answered your question. All the best.
SKM

Hello,

Things may have changed since I worked at a County Prison, been a number of years and was prior to my working as a Police Officer. However, having said that;

While the prisons may not permit any type of "organized" martial arts training they really cannot stop anyone from practicing if they so desire. As a matter of fact there are even some martial arts, such as 52 Blocks, which are reputed to have been developed in the prison system by inmates. Remember, this is America where you still have rights, even while in jail. Shoot, some people do better in jail then outside. Free food, medical care and the opportunity to obtain an education..........all at the expense of those who are outside of prison. Also, in America an inmate really cannot be "forced" to do anything.

While working as a CO I observed numerous factions within the prison training in various combat methods. Even if you wanted to stop someone from training there are two many liberals who would sound the alarm to insure the inmates rights were and are not violated.

Then again what to I know..................maybe things have changed over the years.

[Ali. R]

Shoot, some people do better in jail then outside. Free food, medical care and the opportunity to obtain an education..........all at the expense of those who are outside of prison.



Nothings free anymore, and you will get a bill at the end of the day.


Take care,

[Sihing73]

Nothings free anymore, and you will get a bill at the end of the day.


Take care,

Ali,

While it is true that prisoners are now being "charged" for their stays, the reality is that prisoners do not pay for their incarceration but the taxpayers do. After all, have you ever heard of someone doing their time and then not being released cause they had a bill for their prison stay?? Shoot even when some is required to pay compensation for their crime to the victim there are few teeth to make this happen.

[sihing]

VT skill set doesn't deteriorate much at all really, I don't practice much now, just with the guy/gals in class and the skills are there, of course there is always room for improvement.

And many times over my 20+yrs in this racket have I seen people that have taken lots of time off only to come back the same or better in regards their individual skill set, the mechanics are still there, body frame, timing and so forth, many many times this has happened. Sometimes taking a break allows you to reset and forget the things you think are troubling you.

James

[Ali. R]

Ali,

While it is true that prisoners are now being "charged" for their stays, the reality is that prisoners do not pay for their incarceration but the taxpayers do. After all, have you ever heard of someone doing their time and then not being released cause they had a bill for their prison stay?? Shoot even when some is required to pay compensation for their crime to the victim there are few teeth to make this happen.


That is true, but they do get re-arrested until they pay through the probation/parole office and with an even bigger bill each time.

And the 'State' seems to always get their funds before the victim anyway.


Take care,

[Sihing73]

And the 'State' seems to always get their funds before the victim anyway. Take care,

True to a point. I had to do a year probation for an incident where someone referred to my 12 year old step daughter with a racial slur, the person who made the slur was a police officer and this was after I left the State Police. To be blunt I did not handle it as well as I should have and ended up being charged with four counts of aggravated assault on police. My Sifu bailed me out of jail after hearing of the circumstances. The DA decided not to go to trial as they did not think a jury would be sympathetic to a cop calling my 12 year old step daughter what he did. I ended up pleading Nolle Contendre to one count of resisting arrest, you cannot resist even an illegal arrest in PA. It did not have all that much of an impact as I now work for the Department of Public Safety/State Patrol.

The point of all of this is that I had fees assessed for the cost of probation and such. I paid what I thought was fair and told the court I was not paying the rest. They threatened me and I told them to put me in jail and I would do my time. Funny thing they opted to accept the money I gave them and drop the matter. Now there may have been a number of circumstances that led to the end result, but the old saying "You can't get blood from a stone" is rather true.

When you simply tell the courts you do not care they are like any other debtor-they can only do so much. There is no debtors prison in America, at least not officially. ;)

[Grumblegeezer]

...And many times over my 20+yrs in this racket have I seen people that have taken lots of time off only to come back the same or better in regards their individual skill set, the mechanics are still there, body frame, timing and so forth, many many times this has happened. Sometimes taking a break allows you to reset and forget the things you think are troubling you.

James

I've seen this happen too. One of my long-time VT brothers moved out of state and was forced to do only occasional solo work, forms etc. for lack of partners. Next time I saw him at a weekend seminar with our instructor, he was still quite good at chi-sau and sparring, and by the second day I swear he was even better than before he moved away!

[sihing]

I've seen this happen too. One of my long-time VT brothers moved out of state and was forced to do only occasional solo work, forms etc. for lack of partners. Next time I saw him at a weekend seminar with our instructor, he was still quite good at chi-sau and sparring, and by the second day I swear he was even better than before he moved away!

VT develops our nervous/neurological systems, it's like we are learning how to move again with the skill set engrained within it all.

No one forgets how to take their hands away when touching a hot surface, it should be like this, the hard part is getting the skill set within you to this point of proficiency:)

J

[ZenMindT]

VT develops our nervous/neurological systems, it's like we are learning how to move again with the skill set engrained within it all.

No one forgets how to take their hands away when touching a hot surface, it should be like this, the hard part is getting the skill set within you to this point of proficiency:)

J

Thank you sihing and Grumblegeezer,

That's the type of information I was wondering. My skills aren't as refined as 20+ yrs of training, but They have definitely become automatic. I know through forms I could maintain body mechanics, but it was the sensitivity and reaction time I was most concerned about. Based on what you said from your experience, it seems that even with some decline, i should be able to recover quickly. Your statement about reacting to a hot surface makes a lot of sense, I didn't think of it that way.