Has anyone trained with Master Su Yu-Chang?

[Kymus]

Master Su Yu-Chang teaches:


6 Harmonies Praying Mantis
7 Star Praying Mantis
8 Step Praying Mantis
Plum Blossom Praying Mantis
Secret Gate Praying Mantis
Bajiquan
Piguachuan
Baguazhang
Chen style Taijiquan
Yang style Taijiquan


I am really curious as to how his curriculum is set up! I tried googling, and students of his from Spain (http://www.pachitanglangmerida.webs.com/)and Norway (http://www.pachitanglangnorway.webs.com/) list on their website a list of forms for each system (empty hand, weapons, and qigong). This made me think that maybe each art is taught individually and students simply choose what they want to focus on.

However, most students these days are likely new to martial arts and rarely are familiar with the nuances of different styles. This makes me ponder as to whether they are taught all together as a sort of mish-mash.

On Master Su's website (http://pachitanglang.com/) for this school in NYC, it says:


New students begin studying Tanglang, Pakua, Hsing-I or Tai Chi, but all styles, including Pikua and Pachi, are taught during all classes.

Depending on how you pick it apart, it could mean the mish-mash idea or the individual art idea.:confused:

[YouKnowWho]

You can consider Pikua as joints loosing method and Baji as power generating method, both can be integrated into almost any system that you are training.

[Kymus]

You can consider Pikua as joints loosing method and Baji as power generating method, both can be integrated into almost any system that you are training.

I kinda had a feeling about that, but I wasn't sure.

I know that Master Su's mantis has some baji jing to it. I've never studied Baji, but looking at the forms, I can see the power generation and I can see how one could apply that to a separate technique. I'm curious how pigua's whipping power would be applied to other arts tho :confused:

[Kymus]

I've not trained with him, but i have 2 great friends who trained with him, and their (my friends') teachers are his disciples. Here's a web page when you can find his curriculum for the style he teaches (the web page is in spanish)

Secret Gate Praying Mantis
http://www.centropachitanglang.com/temario-de-pimen-tang-lang-chuan/

8 Steps Praying Mantis
http://www.centropachitanglang.com/temario-de-papu-tang-lang

6 Harmonies Praying Mantis
http://www.centropachitanglang.com/temario-de-lio-hoe-tang-lang/

7 Stars / Plum Blossom Praying Mantis
http://www.centropachitanglang.com/temario-de-chising-meihua-tang-lang/

Taiji
http://www.centropachitanglang.com/temario-de-tai-chi-chuan/

Baji
http://www.centropachitanglang.com/temario-de-pachi-chuan/

Pigua
http://www.centropachitanglang.com/temario-de-pikua/

Bagua
http://www.centropachitanglang.com/temario-de-pakua/

Xing Yi
http://www.centropachitanglang.com/temario-de-hsing-i/


Here's the web page of the school he founded in Venezuela some time ago
http://www.pachitaichichuan.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=35


I hope this can help you :)


For more info you can search in facebook for Willy Rivero (https://www.facebook.com/willy.rivero)

He's Fu Shun Nan and Tai She Che's disciple and a Su Yu Chang student :)

Thanks for the input! I've seen the listing of forms on other foreign sites. I'm just trying to figure out how it's taught in class.

How is your friend's english? Cuz, I speak maybe 3 words of Spanish :p

Oh, and do you mind my asking how long he trained with Master Su (while he was still in Venezuela)? I'm just curious :)

[Kymus]

Ok, I'll try to contact him when I have the time. Thanks again for the info!

[bawang]

that's a lot of forms.

[Sima Rong]

that's a lot of forms.

Yes, makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[mooyingmantis]

that's a lot of forms.

Not when you consider how many forms are in the Seven Star and Plum Flower Mantis families. Those are just a fraction of many mantis school's curriculum.

[Kymus]

Not when you consider how many forms are in the Seven Star and Plum Flower Mantis families. Those are just a fraction of many mantis school's curriculum.

I was wondering about that. I've seen a list of maybe 80 forms for 7-star mantis and I think there are about 40 in the list given.

I suppose Master Su cut a lot out.

[SPJ]

There are only a few forms from 6 harmony or liu he tang lang.

Master Su moved back to Taiwan and focused on training more students in Taiwan.

Planting the seeds or roots in Taiwan.

And yes.

He learned and teaches all schools/styles of Mantis.

:cool:

[Kymus]

Master Su moved back to Taiwan and focused on training more students in Taiwan.

Planting the seeds or roots in Taiwan.


Well that's disappointing. I will be moving back to NYC in about 5 years and really wanted to train with him :(.

[lkfmdc]

I know people who trained with him (but like a decade ago). Most just learned forms, but those who were "close" were taught skills.... pretty much like most Chinese teachers

[mantis7]

I remember speaking to Steven Laurette, I think, many years ago about Su-Yu Chang.
If I remember correctly, it may not have been Laurette but his name pops into mind,
He said that Chang would sell a complete "system" for 5 to 10 grand of a particular mantis system of the buyers choosing.

This was said long ago, so please take this with a grain of salt.

[Kymus]

I remember speaking to Steven Lauret think, many years ago about Su-Yu Chang.
If I remember correctly, it may not have been Laurette but his name pops into mind,
He said that Chang would sell a complete "system" for 5 to 10 grand of a particular mantis system of the buyers choosing.

This was said long ago, so please take this with a grain of salt.

Thanks for the 411. It sounds to me similar to what LKFMDC had said in his stories about Chan Tai-San.

[YouKnowWho]

Su-Yu Chang ... He said that Chang would ...

It should be Su Yu-Chang. Su is his last name. His original name was Su Kuan-Ming. I have heard that since there was a killer who had the same name, Su changed his name after that.

[mantis7]

My apologies. I misplaced the hyphen. Thanks for the correction.

[Paul T England]

I have seen his lohan Gung tape and its very different? I don't know what to make of his stuff but would be interested in seeing more.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[ngokfei]

I hung out at the school he had with his student the late Mike Martello and Rosa Huang in NYC before the falling out that led to the closing and Mikes journey to Taiwan to train with Su's classmates.

The material was pretty solid but emphasis was on the forms and skills but not too much on sparring.

Other schools he's opened there was a stronger emphasis on combat.

Guess its built to the preference of the student.

Rosa runs Mike's old school in Belgium the last I heard.

[mooyingmantis]

I remember speaking to Steven Laurette, I think, many years ago about Su-Yu Chang.
If I remember correctly, it may not have been Laurette but his name pops into mind,
He said that Chang would sell a complete "system" for 5 to 10 grand of a particular mantis system of the buyers choosing.

This was said long ago, so please take this with a grain of salt.

If you can't even clearly remember who told you the information and you feel the need to tell us to take the information with a grain of salt, why even bring it up on a public forum?

[Kymus]

I hung out at the school he had with his student the late Mike Martello and Rosa Huang in NYC before the falling out that led to the closing and Mikes journey to Taiwan to train with Su's classmates.

The material was pretty solid but emphasis was on the forms and skills but not too much on sparring.

Other schools he's opened there was a stronger emphasis on combat.

Guess its built to the preference of the student.

Good to know. I assume that it's probably tailored to suit the average American. Perhaps it's like what lkfmdc said in that only the worthwhile students are really taught anything useful?

[Kymus]

I have seen his lohan Gung tape and its very different? I don't know what to make of his stuff but would be interested in seeing more.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

FWIW, you can find a lot of his stuff on YouTube. It helps if you understand Spanish, Japanese, or Mandarin as well.

[mantis7]

If you can't even clearly remember who told you the information and you feel the need to tell us to take the information with a grain of salt, why even bring it up on a public forum?

Its called anecdotal evidence. The expression anecdotal evidence refers to evidence from anecdotes. Because of the small sample, there is a larger chance that it may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases. Anecdotal evidence is considered dubious support of a claim; it is accepted only in lieu of more solid evidence. This is true regardless of the veracity of individual claims. Hence, take it with a grain of salt.

When supplying anecdotal evidence, there is a chain reaction of either further anecdotal evidence becoming available or a rebuttal statement that negates the prior anecdotal statement thus rendering it pointless.

Now, regardless of point of origin, I never stated that it was true or false. I simply stated what was said. Someone who knows the individual and his business practices could rebutt this information or validate it.

As far as bringing it up on a public forum, this forum is just a symbolic construct equivalent to a water cooler. My comment was purely skuttlebutt in nature. Its called making conversation. So take it for what it is worth.

This is no different than someone asking someone else about the qualifications, abilities and integrity of a business person, educator or contractor.

Like Bawang said, "That's a lot of forms." But to add to his commentary, That is a hell of a lot of systems to teach. To add to what Ross said, "Those who were close were taught skill... like most Chinese teachers." Common practice and all that rot.

Considering that the practice I mentioned is common place in our community, I would say it is some what relevant. The sheer amount of systems that he offers and teaches at one time would also call into the question how he transmits said knowledge to individuals seeking his guidance. Being able to pick and choose what you learn and knowing the price for said information is comforting to know ahead of time.

Like Eric said, "The material was pretty solid but emphasis was on the forms and skills but not too much on sparring." So again, this could be used to assume that this business practice is being used. I know assuming is such a dangerous thing but having collected anecdotal evidence can lead to a somewhat informed decision. A somewhat informed decision is way better than a shot in the dark and can help cut through the BS.

Also, I know quite a few instructors that willing dole out forms from a given system for monetary recompense. The ability to teach an "advanced" form and receive payment for it is brilliant and very common place. Hell, Chan Poi did this on a regular basis. Isn't there a whole industry thriving in the kung fu world where you go to a seminar to learn this form or that form? There is no misplaced judgment for this business practice.

Moo, you comment reads like I am trying to besmirch his good name. I actually think it is quite intelligent of him to supplement his income and health of his schools by participating in such a business venture.

If anything, if this business practice is true, it gives the OP an avenue of opportunity to get the bigger bang for his buck so to speak. Especially, if he has a small time frame to train. This would allow him to pick and choose what areas he wishes to participate and train.

To sum it up. Why not bring it up on a public forum where many instructors ply their wares and offer up seminars?

[mantis7]

I would like to add that the days of hiding a "masters' business practices, dirty laundry, character traits or what have you have gone the way of the Gooney Bird.

To consider outing an individual's action or calling them on a perceive reputation is no longer bad form. It is actually a boon for the community. Those who actually think otherwise are doomed to keep their heads in the sand leaving their posterior readily available to constant harassment and pillaging of their wallet.

Buyer beware! Gather your information before paying a 5000.00 Bai se ceremony.
It is more prudent to pay for an entire system than to pay for a meaningless Bai see ceremony?

;) Pay for the skill. Learn it, digest it, master it, utilize it, and teach it. The only one who would complain about this method is the person not receiving their kick back for allowing you to teach what you have already paid to learn.

Its like a college asking you to pay a monthly payment for the right to use the information you learned while earning your degree; fun how that works.

[Kymus]

Perhaps based on the feedback I've gotten, Master Marlon Ma's Wutang school (http://wutangusa.com/) would be a better option?

The only major differences between the programs is that Master Ma's school doesn't teach Xingyi or as much Mantis (they say they teach a combo of Northern Long Fist and Praying Mantis. Though there are some forms listed that I think either come from or are based on other mantis arts).

Pro's

Master Ma is younger and teaches in the US *
I personally really like that their curriculum is laid out real clean and up front
Their students spar well and they seem to demonstrate good technique (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0-7USCZWR4) **
It's possible that being located in Flushing and having a predominantly Chinese student base, they don't run their school the typical western way ***


Con's

That sh!t's expensive!
I am really fascinated with Northern Mantis and Master Su does have more experience with it ****



* so that leaves plenty of time for further instruction and refinement. More time to truly master the art etc etc
** it looks like Kung Fu and not sloppy kick boxing. They even utelize throws. I'm much more used to this sort of sparring.
*** for those that have never lived in NYC or never been to Flushing, it's Chinatown for Chinese people; not for tourists.
**** though I am choosing a Wudang school for the combo of Mantis, Baji, Pigua, Taiji, and Bagua. So I'm not looking for just mantis, but Mantis, Baji, and Pigua are three that I would like to get a lot of experience with.

[ngokfei]

kymus

don't know what you mean by "American Way".

I've trained with lots of teachers both here and in Asia. Pretty much the same format.

Forms are the vehicle.

The personality and experiences of the teacher dictates if they do consistent training in applications and free sparring.

What I've seen over the last 10 -15 years is the inclusion of the Taekwondo Studio method being incorporated by alot of the younger teachers both here in the US and all throughout Asia.

Nothing wrong with that (definite improvement in regards to organization) but it was not the norm.

the negative is that there are now students who have been given alot of info but still don't have the work ethic to practice so we are producing a generation of teachers who only have "book knowledge" but no mastery.

In the end you find the teacher that best fits your personality.

[Kymus]

In my - albeit limited - experience, most schools seem to follow a formula of:


teach form
teach application
(optional) get better with form
move on to next form


What I'm told, is that this is especially true in America where people's expectations are pretty bad and you gotta conform to those expectations to make money.

In a way, I think we may be thinking of the same thing (or mostly), but saying it differently, perhaps?

For me, I want to find a school that teaches specific arts and that I don't have to wait however long it takes to become a ba si through hard work to start learning "the good stuff" and spend more time on applications and sparring than on learning forms (not that I have anything against forms, mind you).

The word seems to be that Master Su's school doesn't focus on all that stuff much (at least not unless you're chosen as a disciple, I guess). But with the other school, I'm seeing a rarity: students that can actually demonstrate their art. So given all that, I'm thinking that that is the better choice for me. In NYC, to my knowledge, these are the only Wudang schools.

[SPJ]

focus, focus, focus

1. focus on development of basic or core skills.

spend time to practice and seek guidance from a good teacher.

2. focus on collections of techniques

techniques after techniques

forms after forms

So ask our self what we want

then go to a good teacher

:)

[YouKnowWho]

Should you develop your

1. "skill" first and then develop your "ability", or
2. "ability" first before you develop your "skill"?

In the old time, most TCMA teachers took the 2nd approach. Unfortunately, this training method is so boring that most people quit in the early stage. The 1st approach is less boring but it has another problem.

Let's take the "head lock" skill development as example. There are about 25 techniques that's involved (if the ground skill is not included). You can pretty much learn all those techniques in 2 years. In those 2 years, since your head lock power has not yet fully developed , when you use it against a fully resisted opponent, your head lock won't work very well. You may lose confidence in your training path. Now your teacher can play an very important role here. When you spar/wrestle with your teacher, if he can demonstrate the effectiveness of his head lock on you, even if you have not yet developped that power, since you can see the future that if your teacher can reach to that stage, you should be able to reach to that stage by following the same path. You will have faith in his training method. Unfortunately, this training methed may be hard for a teacher if he is old.

[Kymus]

I get what you're saying, YKW. If I had some sort of guarantee that the teacher I would learn from would teach me to be a proficient fighter in his art(s), I'd have no problem jumping through hoops and training however I was told until they felt that I was ready for the real training.

These days, there is little guarantee of that, I feel. You can get somewhat of an idea of how well a school is run based on some superficial evidence, but outside of that, how does one determine which path is truly best for them?

I have no doubt that Master Su is a great practitioner, and he is likely a great teacher as well, but based on what I've been told here (as well as other factors) and comparing it to the competition so-to-speak, I think the competition is where I would do best.

[ngokfei]

kymus, actually you answered your own question with the last comment of "Competition". If your looking for a teacher who produces successful skill students then you should be looking a school or teacher that has a strong successful competiton record.

All the sparring in a school against one's training brothers doesn't mean anything unless it works on an outsider.

[Kymus]

All the sparring in a school against one's training brothers doesn't mean anything unless it works on an outsider.

Thank you for the advice, ngokfei, I agree wholeheartedly!

I just can't seem to locate records for either school. The best I have to go off of is a couple of sparring vids... Not the best source, but at least they don't look like sloppy kickboxers and actually understand how to throw someone :eek:

[mantis7]

Kymus,

All you can really do is go down to their school and observe a few days of their classes. Honestly, this should give you enough information to determine if their kwoon is somewhere you want to be.

Videos can give you a false sense of what they are actually doing. They can be edited and staged. Go down and take a look for yourself.

[mantis7]

Remember, there is a big difference between slap boxing, point fighting and san da. I won't comment on their videos since I have not seen them.

* I watched their videos and it looks like slap boxing to me but that is just my opinion.

[ngokfei]

There's no substitute for actually joining and training.

nothing free in this world and I highly doubt a teacher would let individuals come back again and again to watch their class. I for one don't allow visitors to view but then again I also give free trial lesson.

You'll probably be only watching a beginners class which generally won't have that much sparring going on.

For me if a individual who has initial training and wants to excell up thats fine as long as they can pass the requirements. The 1st requirement is to be in shape. Not saying Kymus is this individual.

[Kymus]

The 1st requirement is to be in shape. Not saying Kymus is this individual.

Want some ben and jerry's bro? :p

[Kymus]

Remember, there is a big difference between slap boxing, point fighting and san da. I won't comment on their videos since I have not seen them.

* I watched their videos and it looks like slap boxing to me but that is just my opinion.

Generally this is how I spar with friends of mine that also train. Medium contact, no pads, most things are legal.

But as I mentioned before, I'm just amazed that it actually looks like Kung Fu. There's demonstration of technique and they even know how to throw :eek:

[ngokfei]

nah I'm a haagen dazs guy - black cherry or pistachio

:D

[Kymus]

nah I'm a haagen dazs guy - black cherry or pistachio

:D

Black cherry then. I'm down with that. I'm also a fan of their vanilla fudge brownie.

Of course, I only know from reading reviews... it's not like I'd ever buy a pint and eat the whole thing by myself... nope.... never......:D

[ngokfei]

i'm guilty of that but its been quite some years since I've attempted it. ahh youth.:)

[mantis7]

I never understood not alowing someone to see more than one class and making it a beginners class. What is your thinking about that Eric?

[ngokfei]

For one thing the students aren't on exhibition for visitors. thats not what they signed up for.

Even a tour of a gym they do a walk through, they don't put a chair in from of the studio window and let an individual sit there for the entire session. There's a big enough problem with all the guys checking out the Zumba Class:D

If a person wants to see what a school is all about then just enroll. Its become standard business practice in most to offer a introductory program. Like 2 sessions for $20

If a individual can't afford that then they really aren't serious about training.

In my personal experience I've actually joined schools as they didn't have a Introductory Program. And yes some turned out to suck and on 1 occasion I didn't finish the month out. So a loss of $60

[Kymus]

There's a big enough problem with all the guys checking out the Zumba Class:D

Do you teach the combat applications too? :p