How much of your system do you actually use?

[mantis7]

Greetings everybody. I have been out of the game for a long time but a recent discussion with a few friends of mine made me wonder about the actual amount of techniques that are viable into today's combat environment.

Based on your personal experience and understanding, how much of your personal style do you think you could actually apply in any given combat scenario?

Try and think percentage wise.


Are there techniques that are maintained and passed on that are no longer viable or are to convoluted to work within your system?

Are you holding on to techniques for the sake of preserving history?

Could you stream line your system?

I guess what I am getting at is what do you consider functional and how do you know it works?

[YouKnowWho]

It's not "how much" but "how good" that you can use.

If you can use just one move to defeat everybody on this planet, you are a master of that move. Anybody wants to learn that move will have to come to you. We all try to develop that one move in our life time.

[mantis7]

YouknowWho-

I understand where you are coming for but we all know that mastering one move is not tantamount to a get out of jail free card in a fight. Regardless of the amount of time put into mastering one technique, the success rate plummets with each use. That is why techniques are used, evaluated, re-evaluated, discarded, improved on or left as is; so to speak.

Any technique is highly dependent on strength, speed, stamina and natural talent of an individual. You can master a sidekick to the best of your ability but it can be less than effective in your hands. So what do you do with it?

We may "try" to master that one technique but we should have a bag full of techniques that are viable with out that perfection. How much of your system would you say falls into that category?

Just a side note, I highly doubt there is that one "just right" technique that an individual can master to the point of exclusivity. If this was true then we would see one individual use said technique over and over again dominating in multiple fields of combat.

Just look at any system of combat. Does any one system hold an exclusive use of kicks, elbow, punches or throws that have lead it to be a premier go to art? Even BJJ, has take a slight back seat to modified BJJ/MMA hybrid approaches. It does not hold an exclusive hold on grappling arts like it once did.

[YouKnowWho]

You may use

- all the defense skill, but
- only a subset of your offense skill

from your system.

Let's take the Chinese throwing art as an example.

In the book 中国跤术 published in China, it records 61 different categories of throws. If we just pick 1 throw from each catagory, we will get 61 throws. Among those 61 different categories, The

- "踢(Ti) - kick" category has 36 different throws.
- "蹩(Bie) - break" category has 32 different throws.
- ...

A total of 230 different throws are recorded in that book.

http://dianzi.gerenjianli.com/wenjiao/lnedre1o8cn18s6.html

Assume it takes us 1/2 year to master a throw. 230 throws will require 115 years. We just don't live that long.

Since we can only learn a subset of our system. We can spend 30 years on:

1. 10 throw.
2. 100 throws.
3. 230 throws.
- ...

Which path is better? If you want to be a fighter, option 1 may be better. If you want to be a teacher, option 3 may be better.

[xinyidizi]

Assume it takes us 1/2 year to master a throw. 230 throws will require 115 years. We just don't live that long.

Since we can only learn a subset of our system. We can spend 30 years on:

1. 10 throw.
2. 100 throws.
3. 230 throws.
- ...



There are two problems with this analogy.

1- You assume that the amount of time an advanced student with quite a few years of experience needs to spent to learn a new move is the same amount of time that a total beginner needs to spend on learning his first move.

2-You assume that in a system every move is totally unrelated to other moves but in my experience in TCMA systems there is usually a limited number of major moves and many other moves related to them. This way by mastering the major ones the variations can be mastered much faster.

[GoldenBrain]

Greetings everybody. I have been out of the game for a long time but a recent discussion with a few friends of mine made me wonder about the actual amount of techniques that are viable into today's combat environment.

Based on your personal experience and understanding, how much of your personal style do you think you could actually apply in any given combat scenario? 100 % of it as long as the situation presents itself. I think it's good to learn as many applications, techniques, forms...etc as possible if for no other reason than to be familiar to what an opponent might throw at you. From there we need to narrow down the techniques to what clicks for us and works for each of our own unique anatomy and skills.


Try and think percentage wise.


Are there techniques that are maintained and passed on that are no longer viable or are to convoluted to work within your system? Yes, definitely, but as I said in my first answer they are okay to learn if for no other reason than to understand. I've met many students who in sparring try to throw whacked out techniques and some may have landed if not for my broad range of training. That doesn't mean I use said whacked out techniques myself.


Are you holding on to techniques for the sake of preserving history? I think there are probably a great number of techniques in the styles that I have learned that I wouldn't use in a fight but being able to hand those techniques down to others who may be interested based on their own unique anatomy is of some importance to me.


Could you stream line your system? Definitely. I have personally streamlined the styles I have learned to fit my own anatomy. I still practice the other stuff but I do have my bread and butter techniques.

I guess what I am getting at is what do you consider functional and how do you know it works? The only way to be sure it works is to spar/fight. Whether it's functional or not is up to the individual and that knowledge comes with time and experience.

These are great questions that I feel all martial artists should ask themselves at some point in their lives.

[YouKnowWho]

There are two problems with this analogy.

1- You assume that the amount of time an advanced student with quite a few years of experience needs to spent to learn a new move is the same amount of time that a total beginner needs to spend on learning his first move.

2-You assume that in a system every move is totally unrelated to other moves but in my experience in TCMA systems there is usually a limited number of major moves and many other moves related to them. This way by mastering the major ones the variations can be mastered much faster.

Agree with what you have said. My main point is if you try to learn everything, you may end with nothing. I have seen people who spent 5 years of training time and end with nothing (no dependable skill).

[mooyingmantis]

Mantis7,

I pass on five or six mantis forms for the sake of tradition.

However, all the fighting combinations and strategies that I teach have been personally tested by me in "combat".

I don't waste my student's time drilling low percentage techniques. Though admittedly, I would not feel comfortable using some of the techniques found in our traditional forms. And I point these out to students as low percentage techniques.

[xinyidizi]

Agree with what you have said. My main point is if you try to learn everything, you may end with nothing. I have seen people who spent 5 years of training time and end with nothing (no dependable skill).

I think many TCMA systems have the problem of prioritizing. People skim through too many moves without learning to use one of them. I think the students should spend the first few years on learning jibengong and a handful of the major moves that can cover enough basic fighting skills in a system and master them by using heavy bag and partner drills,... . This way the students can start getting used to fighting from the beginning and the rest of the techniques can be learned very fast after that essential period. Otherwise if you skim through hundreds of moves without making them functional first it will become a habit that can't be changed easily. The problem is that that method is not very commercial because the students expect to learn new moves after new moves for each class they pay for. It's also not easy for the teacher because if he wants to stick to just 20 moves for 3 years he would need to contribute more by sparring and practicing with the students which given the Chinese culture of mianzi and today's out of shape Kungfu teachers is out of question.

[xiao yao]

in taiji mantis, i think other than the di tang stuff and a few techniques involving pulling the opponents "bianzi" (qing dynasty hair braid) i think most stuff is still valid.

i suppose the di tang has some good stuff to get up off the ground or bring the opponent down with you, but ive never pulled it off. it would be cool to see somebody who can really use chinese di tang though

[xiao yao]

although the pulling the hair techniques can easily be modified into other ways of controlling the opponents head.......

[MightyB]

60% of the time, it works every time!

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTAk4BqXKByu8wtzcS3z4wyTtTd4mWQq ISsYZl80XWBjuzmCapziQ

[MightyB]

ignoring forms and focusing on applications...

How many individual moves are there and how many are just variations of the same basic theme?

Each move may have its own name, but it really isn't distinct... capiche?

[SPJ]

You may use

- all the defense skill, but
- only a subset of your offense skill

from your system.

Let's take the Chinese throwing art as an example.

In the book 中国跤术 published in China, it records 61 different categories of throws. If we just pick 1 throw from each catagory, we will get 61 throws. Among those 61 different categories, The

- "踢(Ti) - kick" category has 36 different throws.
- "蹩(Bie) - break" category has 32 different throws.
- ...

A total of 230 different throws are recorded in that book.

http://dianzi.gerenjianli.com/wenjiao/lnedre1o8cn18s6.html

Assume it takes us 1/2 year to master a throw. 230 throws will require 115 years. We just don't live that long.

Since we can only learn a subset of our system. We can spend 30 years on:

1. 10 throw.
2. 100 throws.
3. 230 throws.
- ...

Which path is better? If you want to be a fighter, option 1 may be better. If you want to be a teacher, option 3 may be better.

We may also categorize or group techniques by the nature and direction of energy or power.

1 Downward or sink

2 Forward

3. Retreat

etc.

:)

[SPJ]

1. I can say 8 basic palms for Ba Gua Zhang.

http://youtu.be/K4seCogI5SE

2. 5 basic palms for Tong Bei.

3. Liang Yi Ding for Ba Ji.


--

We have core moves in each system.

Once we are good at these.

We may build or derive more from our foundation moves or techniques.

:cool:

[mantis7]

So, lets take the idea that we have a collection of high percentage and low percentage.
How have you gone about testing this collection?

How do you discern between high and low percentage?

What are your testing parameters?

What's the format? Is it light sparring, complacent drills, full contact drills, gloved, gloveless or what have you?

How many times have you tested the technique?

Are you testing it against someone of equal skill or superior skill?

How much do you think human error or ability plays into determining the final judgment of a certain technique?