MT Clinch

[YouKnowWho]

When your opponent uses MT clinch on you, if you use "head lock", you can lock his head along with both of his arms. Since his arms will be jamed between your body and his bodies, you can disable his arms.

Have you ever try this? What's your experience on this?

http://imageshack.us/a/img407/6162/2l5e.jpg

[Sima Rong]

I'm confused by this. You don't mean after being clinched, do you?
If a MT practitioner uses this clinch well, your head is pinned in tight and they usually control your balance and can detect a lot of your movements. How would the defender do a head lock from this position?

[Kymus]

I don't think that'll work. Any MT guy trained properly is going to have full control over you once you're in that clinch. They will gladly sway you from side to side until you stop moving long enough for them to drive in their knees.

In Muay Thai, there are 2 ways we (or at least I) learned to avoid the kneeing and 2 ways to reverse or get out of a clinch:


Bear hug them and they can't really knee you (though they probably will attempt to elbow you in the head)
bring both fists out and against their stomach, with arms locked. They won't be able to effectively knee you. But you're still open up top (unless your reaction time is real good)
You can reverse the clinch by pushing their chin up and then snaking your arms in and applying the clinch on them (this one's harder for me to explain since it's been probably 5 - 7 years since I've done it)
You can break the clinch by "popping"; pull one of their elbows down and pop the other one up


I've seen videos on YouTube purporting on how to get out of a MT clinch, and I don't think most of the techniques would work. Furthermore, most of them don't seem to know how to properly do a MT clinch. :(

Anyway, that's my 2 cents ;)

[Kymus]

I'm confused by this. You don't mean after being clinched, do you?
If a MT practitioner uses this clinch well, your head is pinned in tight and they usually control your balance and can detect a lot of your movements. How would the defender do a head lock from this position?

Bingo! :D

1234543651

[mickey]

Greetings,

I am really not into sport combatives.

Have any of you simply tried a strong forward rush? the guy can not do much if his weight is continually being shifted back to his heels.


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

I'm confused by this. You don't mean after being clinched, do you?
If a MT practitioner uses this clinch well, your head is pinned in tight and they usually control your balance and can detect a lot of your movements. How would the defender do a head lock from this position?
If your opponent's clinch can pin your head, you already lose by my definition. You assume your MT opponent has better clinching skill than you do. Sometime that may not be the case if you are a good wrestler.

2 of my guys had tried this in their MMA gyms. Both of them told me it worked very well. The reason is simple. It's not a good feeling to have your arms to be jamed between bodies. I assume different people may have different experience.

[YouKnowWho]

Have any of you simply tried a strong forward rush? the guy can not do much if his weight is continually being shifted back to his heels.
The "forward rush" is 1 point contact. Since your opponent's legs are still free, it may not work well. If your leg can hook on your opponent's "back" leg (2 points contact), if will work better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2gLOWehvdg

[mantis7]

If your opponent's clinch can pin your head, you already lose by my definition. You assume your MT opponent has better clinching skill than you do. Sometime that may not be the case if you are a good wrestler.

2 of my guys had tried this in their MMA gym. Both of them told me it worked very well. The reason is simple. It's not a good feeling to have your arms to be jamed between bodies.

The headlock won't work because of the following:

1. The clinch is situated for a quick release when countered. To apply the head lock your speed would need to exceed the speed of your opponents letting go of his clasped hands.

2. Your reach much exceed to the circumference of the opponents arms and head combined. The girth and arm strength require to hold on to such a lock would have to exceed the strength and reaction time of your opponent.

3. The clinch is a situated in such a way that when your opponent controls the neck the body will follow. If you swing your arm wide it will only take a small movement to counter a large swing by throwing off your balance enough to disrupt the attempt.

4. Pinning the opponents arms to the side of his head creates a spatial gap between the opponents bodies allowing the other opponent to easily twist out of the headlock.

Applying a clinch is a simple task and is easily applied in a stand up grappling situation. If you think someone has already lost because they have become the recipient of a clinch then you need to go train at a MT gym and learn the actual strategy behind it. Even the best MT guy and wrestlers can easily fall victim to this hold but it is not a losing moment. It should be an expected moment because it is easily applied and not completely avoidable.

If your guys went to a MMA gym and applied this strategy then I am comfortable in saying that they were trying it against individuals to inexperienced to know how to get out of it. the individual panicked or didn't know what the hell they were doing.

[mantis7]

The forward rush would be more effective because it creates a gap that can be utilized for escape. While pushing forward the opponents legs are still free but it will force them to either release the grip or sprawl downwards to maintain control of your neck.

IF you have two points of contact the opponent will fall on their back and force them to draw you into their guard. They can still control your neck with a guillotine like lock, pull you in to a guard position or if you are lucky you can gain full mount but he can still maintain a semblance of control over your neck.

[Kymus]

Greetings,

I am really not into sport combatives.

Have any of you simply tried a strong forward rush? the guy can not do much if his weight is continually being shifted back to his heels.


mickey

They'd spin you out and try to give a strong kick to the back or side of your legs as your spinning. It wouldn't work.

[mantis7]

I just tried this technique out. To do this we have to assume that we can loop the hand over while pulling out of the clinch...The reaction time of the opponent will make this an extremely low percentage move almost to the point of uselessness. As soon as you start to shift your weight to get our and swing the arm you either be jerked to either side or your head would be pulled down to stop your movement. This would only work if you are working with a compliant opponent.

[Kymus]

If your guys went to a MMA gym and applied this strategy then I am comfortable in saying that they were trying it against individuals to inexperienced to know how to get out of it. the individual panicked or didn't know what the hell they were doing.

I've never been to an MMA gym, but the MMA guys I've seen on YouTube def don't know how to properly use Muay Thai. For whatever it's worth.

[GoldenBrain]

I'm also not sure how you mean to get a headlock while in a MT clinch. Please explain further.

Here's the way I deal with clinch.

First thing is if it's a good clinch then their elbows are in tight which means that bear hugging is hard to do so I walk my hips in a bit and posture up so I don't have to reach down to block the knees. Then bring both hands over the top of his arms and push his face back and to one side and then weave my arms in one at a time from the bottom and get a clinch myself or break it loose and throw some strikes.

Second is to cross face with one hand over the top of his arms and brace against the top of the shoulder then pop up that same arm at the elbow and either strike the ribs, get out or go for a side arm and head choke.

Third is to reach under, strike the inside of one elbow with an open palm and if it breaks the grip then go for a under hook and sweep or throw them.

Another that sometimes works is to reach under to the opposite arm, palm on top of the biceps and leverage the other arm up to create space and then either break loose or get my own clinch.

Those are a few of the nicer moves for sparring. For the street just reach up the middle and eagle claw that throat or reach over the top and thumbs in the eyes.

There are a few more but those are the most effective in my opinion.

[Kymus]

I just tried this technique out. To do this we have to assume that we can loop the hand over while pulling out of the clinch...The reaction time of the opponent will make this an extremely low percentage move almost to the point of uselessness. As soon as you start to shift your weight to get our and swing the arm you either be jerked to either side or your head would be pulled down to stop your movement. This would only work if you are working with a compliant opponent.

IMO, it's probably better to just get out of it the Muay Thai way, though I think that it's possible a throw could work. I don't know enough about throwing to really say, though.

[YouKnowWho]

I just tried this technique out. To do this we have to assume that we can loop the hand over while pulling out of the clinch...The reaction time of the opponent will make this an extremely low percentage move almost to the point of uselessness. As soon as you start to shift your weight to get our and swing the arm you either be jerked to either side or your head would be pulled down to stop your movement. This would only work if you are working with a compliant opponent.
I don't understand why it's so difficult for your arms to "pull out" of the clinch. What if your arms are already out and you don't need to pull out?

In this clip staring from 2.45, both person's heads were about on the same level. Neither one can bend the other's neck. That's the situation I'm talking about. Please notice that the guy using MT clinch had both arms inside his opponent's arms. The other guy's both arms were completely outside of his opponent's arms. There is no need to "pull out".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdcQYP-jjSQ

[mickey]

Greetings,

Kymus, even after the spin, you can still forward rush. If you are totally exhausted to begin with, I would understand the level of control you describe. Until then, make him earn that clinch. From a life/death perspective, the clincher leaves much open to attack

mickey

[mantis7]

At 2.45, look at their arms. Do you think the person could actually twist while being controlled to pull off a headlock? Both their arms are raised, to actually trap both his arms would be dam near impossible.

He still has control and can control the neck. If he was even close to applying the headlock all it would take is a simple back step and the lock would not be applied.

[Kymus]

Greetings,

Kymus, even after the spin, you can still forward rush. If you are totally exhausted to begin with, I would understand the level of control you describe. Until then, make him earn that clinch. From a life/death perspective, the clincher leaves much open to attack

mickey

Based on my MT experience, I'd disagree Mickey. Generally in MT, the clinch leads to a skip knee and then we throw the opponent and follow up immediately with a round kick.

I'm really not sure how this leaves the attacker open. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean when you say forward rush?

[Kymus]

2:45 is closer to what I learned as to a proper clinch. We never were taught to pull them down and knee the face. Skip knees were always to the abdomen or the side.

When we clinch, it's a very tight movement; elbows are tucked in and our head rests to one side of the clinch with the chin fully tucked in.

[Kymus]

Just wanted to clarify... despite my disagreements with almost everything suggested as a workaround to the MT clinch, I'm not one of those dudes that thinks MT is teh ultimatez stand up art.

I've just spent a good deal of time with it and I feel like there's a disconnect between MT and non-MT. I think a lot of the movements aren't well understood and are poorly implemented outside of MT.

[YouKnowWho]

At 2.45, look at their arms. Do you think the person could actually twist while being controlled to pull off a headlock? Both their arms are raised, to actually trap both his arms would be dam near impossible.

He still has control and can control the neck. If he was even close to applying the headlock all it would take is a simple back step and the lock would not be applied.
IMO, it's very easy to do so. Wrestling 101 tells us if your opponent want to

- bend his arms, you can help him to bend more.
- straight his arms, you can help him to straight more.

You can do in 2 steps:

step 1: use your "outside" left hand to pin on top of your opponent's elbow joing and pull his right fore-arm to touch your left chest. This can prevent your opponent from pulling his arm back, It can also squeeze the space betwee your left side and your opponent's right side. As showing in this picture.

http://imageshack.us/a/img847/1613/armcontrol.jpg

step 2: Now you don't care whether your opponent may pull his left arm back or not. If he does, you lock his head and keep his left arm to be outside of your right arm. If he doesn't, you lock his head along with his left arm. As long as your right hand can wrap around his head and grab on top of his right upper arm, your head lock is completed.

If there is

- a gap between 2 rocks, the water will run "between" it.
- no gap between 2 rocks, the water will run "around" it.


1. The clinch is situated for a quick release when countered. To apply the head lock your speed would need to exceed the speed of your opponents letting go of his clasped hands.
Not if you pin your opponent's arm (since your hand is outside) so he can't pull his arm back.

http://imageshack.us/a/img847/1613/armcontrol.jpg

[mickey]

Hi Kymus,

When you introduce the clinch as part of a combination, I understand your point of view. I have actually seen that. I have also seen the clinch done as a dead hold before those combos took place. That was what I was reacting to. Rushing as in charging forward, forcing the guy to use his legs to root instead of striking. In street combatives there are gouges, etc. that come immediately into play (this is from the dead holding perspective). From the way you describe it, again, the hold is part of a combination. I do not know if that the model YouKnowWho intended to present.

Good Night Y'all,

mickey

[YouKnowWho]

If your guys went to a MMA gym and applied this strategy then I am comfortable in saying that they were trying it against individuals to inexperienced to know how to get out of it. the individual panicked or didn't know what the hell they were doing.
You don't know my guys experience. It's not fair to say that because their head lock work was because their opponents were weak. As far as I know, both MMA gyms have both MT coach and wrestling coach.

Both of my guys have over 12 years grappling experience. The head lock and clinch are their bread and butter. Not too many people can get out of their strong head lock.

[YouKnowWho]

Finally we got something interest for discussion. It's more fun to discuss some real combat skill than just to talk about "Shaolin boxing before 1780". :D Let's all share our difference experiences here.

Allow me to say that a strong head lock is not that easy to develop. After you have developed it, you will have a lot of advantage.

The MT clinch is no different from no-jacket Chinese wrestling clinch. The difference is in Chinese wrestling, you will only use one hand to control the back of your opponent's neck. It's called "mantis arm". The other hand is used to control your opponent's arm.

At 0.04, the wrestling clinch is better clinch than the MT clinch. At least you have controlled one of your opponent's arms and not allow both of your opponent's arms to be free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6NtfiRD9OQ&feature=share

[wenshu]

There's a lot more to Thai clinch than the plum

[YouKnowWho]

There's a lot more to Thai clinch than the plum

Of course clinch is a complicate subject. You can even write a book about it. It includes at least 30 different principles. The "head lock" is #26 環(Huan) – Neck surrounding.

http://imageshack.us/a/img822/7828/headlock.jpg

1. 撕(Si) - Tearing
2. 崩(Beng) - Cracking
3. 捅(Tong) - Striking push
4. 褪(tun) - Hand pushing
5. 肘(Zhou) - Elbow pressing

6. 蓋(Gai) - Covering hands
7. 攞(Lou)- Pulling hands
8. 搖(Yao) - Body-shaking hands
9. 捯(Dao) - Reverse arm-holding
10. 抖(Dou) – Shaking

11. 分(Fen) - Separate hands
12. 掖(Ye) - Hand tucking
13. 引(Yin) - Arm guiding
14. 捧(Peng) - Arm raising
15. 架(Jia) - Elbow Locking

16. 圈(Quan) – Under hook
17. 抄(Chao) - Over hook
18. 抹(Mo) - Wiping
19. 偏(Pian) – Head circling
20. 夾(Jia) – Clamping head

21. 摘(Zai) – Helmet removing
22. 摀(Wu) – Face covering
23. 速(Su) – Forehead push
24. 墬(Zhui) - Sticking drop
25. 撈 (Lao) – Leg seize

26. 環(Huan) – Neck surrounding
27. 托(Tuo) – Chin pushing
28. 封(Feng) – Throat/waist blocking
29. 撒(Sa) - Casting
30. 飄(Piao) - Floating hand

[Frost]

Finally we got something interest for discussion. It's more fun to discuss some real combat skill than just to talk about "Shaolin boxing before 1780". :D Let's all share our difference experiences here.

Allow me to say that a strong head lock is not that easy to develop. After you have developed it, you will have a lot of advantage.

The MT clinch is no different from no-jacket Chinese wrestling clinch. The difference is in Chinese wrestling, you will only use one hand to control the back of your opponent's neck. It's called "mantis arm". The other hand is used to control your opponent's arm.

At 0.04, the wrestling clinch is better clinch than the MT clinch. At least you have controlled one of your opponent's arms and not allow both of your opponent's arms to be free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6NtfiRD9OQ&feature=share

the thai chinch as you call it is very different because the aim is to control and hit and not throw, and as wenshu pointed out the thai clinch is not just the double neck tie

a better clinch for what exactly? striking, throwing?? horses for courses but i will say this the thai clinch gives you superior position, the wrestling tie up you posted is a 50/50 position both control the neck and the arm, i was told by my wrestling coach to avoid this position if at all possible and seek a position which gives me cotrol and takes it away from my opponent, single neck tie and inside bicep or wrist control etc


and im sorry this will not work because he has both inside control and superior body position, structurally he is in a much better position, now before its locked in or as he reaches for it maybe but otherwise once locked in the guy will be ragging you around like a doll once the plum is locked in and kneeing the crap out of you you will be too busy defending the knees and trying to regain structure to d something like that

[YouKnowWho]

he has both inside control and superior body position, structurally he is in a much better position,
Wrestling 101 tells us if your opponent want to

- bend his arms, you can help him to bend more.
- straight his arms, you can help him to straight more.

The wrestling is not MT guy's strong point but wrester's bread and butter. During a clinch is formed (this is exactly what a wrestler is looking for), whether a MT guy can knee the wrestler to death, or the wrestler can take the MT guy down, nobody will know it for sure.


the guy will be ragging you around like a doll ...
I have only seen a wrestler shakes a non-wrestler. I have never seen "shaking" is used by non-wrestler. To assume a non-wrestler knows how to use shaking better than a wrestler is not part of my personal experience.

8. 搖(Yao) - Body-shaking hands (circular shaking)
10. 抖(Dou) – Shaking (linear shaking)

[Frost]

Wrestling 101 tells us if your opponent want to

- bend his arms, you can help him to bend more.
- straight his arms, you can help him to straight more.

The wrestling is not MT guy's strong point but wrester's bread and butter. During a clinch is formed (this is exactly what a wrestler is looking for), whether a MT guy can knee the wrestler to death, or the wrestler can take the MT guy down, nobody will know it for sure.


I have only seen a wrestler shakes a non-wrestler. I have never seen "shaking" is used by non-wrestler. To assume a non-wrestler knows how to use shaking better than a wrestler is not part of my personal experience.

8. 搖(Yao) - Body-shaking hands (circular shaking)
10. 抖(Dou) – Shaking (linear shaking)
101 wrestling says inside control is where you want to be and thats what the thai guy has

Im making assumptions...., you are the one calling a thai boxer a non wrestler :rolleyes: have you studied thai boxing and if so for how long? The clinch is a huge part of thai boxing it includes double neck tie, single neck tie, underhooks overhooks, bicep and wrist control, it included bodylocks and sweeps, although throws arent scored they are used to weaken the opponent

Of course if you want to post clips of yourself or your students doing this against trained thai boxers (not each other) then we can see what you mean

[YouKnowWho]

We may share different experience here. I have seen a MT guy learned wrestling from a wrestler. I have not seen a wrestler learned wrestling from a MT guy.

My guys have worked on the following moves for quite some times by now.

3. Head lock, outer twist, against double neck tie
4. Reverse head lock, front cut, against double neck tie

If I can find a sparring/wrestling partner here, I will create a clip of my own. I have sent an E-mail to ask one of my guys to create such clip in his MMA gym. I can't promise 100% for sure. Here is the E-mail that I have sent.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Pat:

Could you make me a short clip by using head lock outer leg twist (or leg block) to deal with a MT clinch?

John

[Frost]

We may share different experience here. I have seen a MT guy learned wrestling from a wrestler. I have not seen a wrestler learned wrestling from a MT guy.
really you have never heardof a wrestler go to a thai gym in order to learn how to strike in the clinch....never... so the likes of matt hughes, kenny johnson, et al never went to trained thai guys to learn wrestling with striking?

thats the problem, you dont see thai boxing as wrestling, it is its simply wrestling with strikes and l;imited takedowns, and pure wrestlers go to thai gyms to learn clinch striking skills all the time

[tc101]

The mt clinch is dynamic not static and the mt fighter will use what ever energy or movement you give them against you. There is no simple answer or technique to deal with it. If there was mt fighters since they do lots and lots of clinch sparring would have found it already. The answer to the mt clinch is found in the mt clinch as mt fighters have worked out the best defenses and answers already. This question is like asking how to deal with closed guard.

[YouKnowWho]

I started this thread so we have something interest to discuss. I'm in the listening mode (but I still have to explain my opinion first). It makes no sense for me to start a thread so I can argue with everybody. It's perfect OK to have different opinions on this. That's the purpose for discussion.

It's not fair to assume one party knows how to use elbow and knee while assume the other party doesn't. It's also not fair to assume that one party can pin his opponent's head down. Just to be fair. Let's assume both parties

- know how to use elbow and knee.
- heads are on the same level.

The main discussion is when one party applies MT clinch with both arms insides his opponent's arms while the other party applies head lock with both arms outside of his opponent's arm, who has advantage at that particular moment?

My understanding is it's much easier to "squeeze" from outside in. It's much harder to expand (counter squeeze) from inside out. The person who "squeeze" from outside in can take advantage on his body mass and gravity. The person who tries to expand (counter squeeze) from inside out won't have that advantage.

http://imageshack.us/a/img444/5471/octopus.jpg

I have tested this myself by asking my opponent to "squeeze" from outside of my arms as hard as he could. My opponent's "squeeze" made me to feel that I couldn't use my arms at that moment. It put me in defense mode trying to free my arms first.

Again, I don't know it's fair or not not to include the knee striking factor in the discussion since MT clinch is designed with striking in mind.

Now I have explained my opinion. I'll put myself in "listen" mode.

[lkfmdc]

Consider this a gift to the forum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCK_0Tk1XbE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4fOxGdpavA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeUifP6hTlg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4fOxGdpavA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeUifP6hTlg

[bawang]

thank you for the precious gift, mighty david ross. I will treasure it forever.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Consider this a gift to the forum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCK_0Tk1XbE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4fOxGdpavA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeUifP6hTlg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4fOxGdpavA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeUifP6hTlg

And done, LOL !


Granted that, at times, you may not have a choice BUT to block the knees, BUT you want to transition from that to getting inclose ASAP !

[Kymus]

I was hoping you would chime in Ross!

I am familiar with most of those techniques and the variations and applications make perfect sense to me based on the MT I learned. The hip throw is one application I've seen elsewhere that I think would work well on a MT guy.

It is not my intention to nitpick, but I would like to ask why there is that open space during the clinch? Is this a variation seen in other arts? I always learned it like this (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7140/7630686846_d222cec557_o.jpg); very tight and with the head to the side. FWIW.

addendum: knee blocking = "oh sh!t what do I do?!?!" freak out moment. At that point, you won. :D

[lkfmdc]

I was hoping you would chime in Ross!

I am familiar with most of those techniques and the variations and applications make perfect sense to me based on the MT I learned. The hip throw is one application I've seen elsewhere that I think would work well on a MT guy.

It is not my intention to nitpick, but I would like to ask why there is that open space during the clinch? Is this a variation seen in other arts? I always learned it like this (http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7140/7630686846_d222cec557_o.jpg); very tight and with the head to the side. FWIW.

addendum: knee blocking = "oh sh!t what do I do?!?!" freak out moment. At that point, you won. :D

put your head there and I have some very nasty surprises for you....

my clinch is not muay thai strictly speaking, it is a mixture of a lot of things and mostly for MMA and self defense... but it does work quite well in MT, we have beaten a lot of MT camps in MT competiton

[lkfmdc]

Granted that, at times, you may not have a choice BUT to block the knees,



don't block the knee
unless of course you are fighting me ;)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05Y2TTcxlts

[Kymus]

put your head there and I have some very nasty surprises for you....

my clinch is not muay thai strictly speaking, it is a mixture of a lot of things and mostly for MMA and self defense... but it does work quite well in MT, we have beaten a lot of MT camps in MT competiton

When I return to NYC in a few years, I'll hit you up. I'm very curious to see this surprise you mention. I'll bring a friend; you can demonstrate on them :D:p

[lkfmdc]

When I return to NYC in a few years, I'll hit you up. I'm very curious to see this surprise you mention. I'll bring a friend; you can demonstrate on them :D:p

a true friend you are :p

[Kymus]

a true friend you are :p

There's a buddy of mine I've been teaching MT to for years. In our circle, he's nicknamed the mutant. If he needs to, he can take a sh!tload of pain. He also used to be in an indie freak show as a human dart board so......... :p

One time I got him in an armbar and I felt his elbow start to pop. He didn't tap; I let go. Crazy a$$.

[YouKnowWho]

don't block the knee ...

Have you tried to take your opponent down when he knees you with only one standing leg by

- "hooking" his standing leg? or
- "single leg", drop one hand to grab below his knee joint?

I have always believed that if a wrestler can't take his opponent down when his opponent tries to knee him in a clinch, there is something wrong in his training. That means the wrestling doesn't have a good listening skill, and won't be able to detect his opponent's intention tries to raise his knee.

[lkfmdc]

Have you tried to take your opponent down when he knees you with only one standing leg by

- "hooking" his standing leg? or
- "single leg", drop one hand to grab below his knee joint?

I have some video of this, I will put up when I find it....

(over 300 clips, hard to remember where stuff is LOL)

....

just a little bit of this idea at 3:04 of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLc993uxqpY

[YouKnowWho]

I have some video of this, I will put up when I find it....

(over 300 clips, hard to remember where stuff is LOL)

....

just a little bit of this idea at 3:04 of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLc993uxqpY

Yes!

- To position one of your legs (door axis) to the position that you want it to be.
- Wait for your opponent to attack.
- You then attack his standing leg with your other leg (door frame).

In TCMA, this is called to "hide your preparation in your previous move". If you have to position your leg while your opponent tries to knee you, you have to make 2 moves (position your leg, attack his standing leg) instead of just one move (attack his standing leg). That will be too slow.

My guys also trained those drills daily since most Sanda do allow knee (but not elbow).

[sanjuro_ronin]

don't block the knee
unless of course you are fighting me ;)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05Y2TTcxlts

Like I said, there are times you have no choice, that's when you learn HOW to fight off that "block".

[lkfmdc]

There are like three problems with more people trying to learn to clinch

1) Most people are not learning the real Muay Thai clinch game, it is alive and well in Thailand and pretty much non existant outside of Thailand....

2) Once you learn the real Muay Thai clinch, understand it's CONTEXT. It is NOT for wrestling and throwing. It is for STRIKING. It is for striking in a context where throws and takedowns are not only not used, they are actually illegal

3) For the most part, those with great Muay Thai "plaam" (clinch) and those with advanced wrestling skills (Free Style and greco Roman) are on different sides of the planet (metaphorically speaking).... you can learn one or the other but not an integrated package...

There are NO contradictions with the two facets, just lack of appreciation of how they fit together and WHY... I was fortunately to learn stuff from people who did a lot of the leg work already for me Randy Couture, Greg Nelson and Erik Paulson, also a coach from OSU who was a roomate and training partner of Mark Coleman

[Kellen Bassette]

1) Most people are not learning the real Muay Thai clinch game, it is alive and well in Thailand and pretty much non existant outside of Thailand....


I think there is as much fake MT as Kung Fu in the states. Just look at the youtube videos where 90% totally butcher the word for clinch, makes me think they just read it somewhere.....

[Kymus]

I think there is as much fake MT as Kung Fu in the states. Just look at the youtube videos where 90% totally butcher the word for clinch, makes me think they just read it somewhere.....

I have to agree.

I tried finding a MT video to explain a movement and all I saw was crummy MMA wanna-be MT. I was like WTF :confused:

oh, and apparently kiddies on youtube are all experts in MT now. Just like they are in BJJ.......

[Kellen Bassette]

I have to agree.

I tried finding a MT video to explain a movement and all I saw was crummy MMA wanna-be MT. I was like WTF :confused:

oh, and apparently kiddies on youtube are all experts in MT now. Just like they are in BJJ.......

Seems like every Karate Mc Dojo and "American Kick Boxing" class now offers Muay Thai. Just teach the round house with the shin and throw in some knees and elbows. There, we know Muay Thai. :rolleyes:

[Yum Cha]

There are like three problems with more people trying to learn to clinch

1) Most people are not learning the real Muay Thai clinch game, it is alive and well in Thailand and pretty much non existant outside of Thailand....

2) Once you learn the real Muay Thai clinch, understand it's CONTEXT. It is NOT for wrestling and throwing. It is for STRIKING. It is for striking in a context where throws and takedowns are not only not used, they are actually illegal

3) For the most part, those with great Muay Thai "plaam" (clinch) and those with advanced wrestling skills (Free Style and greco Roman) are on different sides of the planet (metaphorically speaking).... you can learn one or the other but not an integrated package...

There are NO contradictions with the two facets, just lack of appreciation of how they fit together and WHY... I was fortunately to learn stuff from people who did a lot of the leg work already for me Randy Couture, Greg Nelson and Erik Paulson, also a coach from OSU who was a roomate and training partner of Mark Coleman

David, do you think the MT Clinch opens you up to being head butted?

[lkfmdc]

David, do you think the MT Clinch opens you up to being head butted?

as I learned it we alway addressed the possibility, I think about 40 years ago it was still LEGAL in the ring... nothing if "fool proof" (and being a fool I know of what I speak!)

[Yum Cha]

as I learned it we alway addressed the possibility, I think about 40 years ago it was still LEGAL in the ring... nothing if "fool proof" (and being a fool I know of what I speak!)

Is some bloke with an English, Aussie or Islander accent talks smack to you, be warned! :D:D:D

There's a fundamental rule, any time someone grabs you, that hand is leaving an opening it can't block.

[lkfmdc]

Is some bloke with an English, Aussie or Islander accent talks smack to you, be warned! :D:D:D

There's a fundamental rule, any time someone grabs you, that hand is leaving an opening it can't block.

you never say my sifu bust bricks with his head? ;)

[Pork Chop]

MT clinch nonexistent outside of Thailand?
Dunno if I agree with that one, but then almost all my MT coaches have been Thai (or Lao), except for Khun Kao who trained under Master K and my coach in Fort Worth who trained directly under Jongsanan. I'm certified under the guy that's largely responsible for Kevin Ross and Chaz Mulkey (ie Ajaan Nop) and I was able to hang in the clinch against one of Saeksan's students, so I have faith in what I'm learning.

MT clinch not for throws?
Well not for any type of shooting throws, hip throws, or pickups, but there are definitely a lot of trips. Just watch highlights of Saenchai.

Burmese Leithwei allows headbutts and I think they're allowed in the bareknuckle Burma vs Thailand fights, so they're part of the old stuff.

I see this weird phenomenon of Tae Kwon Do schools claiming muay thai as well as people with TKD backgrounds in mma claiming muay thai.

[Shaolin Rasta]

Now, I know I'm outside my normal domain here, in fact I don't post that often in these forums, but I read them a lot. I just have a small observation. In my limited experience with full contact fighting and from sparring various types of martial artists including some mt guys, mmaers and wrestlers (quite a while ago!), I've found that simply keeping blows raining on them when they try to clinch, wrestle me, etc. was very effective. In the first image shown on this thread, and most of the clips, why can't simply hooking hard to the ribs or under the armpit and then maybe up to the head be an effective deterrent to trying to clinch my head with both hands?
I used to do something like that anytime someone tried to grab me with both hands. As soon as they try to reach out to me, I start peppering them strong to the face. Also tight uppercuts seem like a good way to go. Also, instead of just blocking with both hands for the knee strikes, I like to use the point of my elbow down onto the top of their knee and then uppercut to chin. A lot of times they would be discouraged to use those knees once my elbow had point struck the top of the knee near the kneecap. But like I said, I'm not a true hard core mma style fighter. Just my observations based on a little fighting experience.

[Frost]

Now, I know I'm outside my normal domain here, in fact I don't post that often in these forums, but I read them a lot. I just have a small observation. In my limited experience with full contact fighting and from sparring various types of martial artists including some mt guys, mmaers and wrestlers (quite a while ago!), I've found that simply keeping blows raining on them when they try to clinch, wrestle me, etc. was very effective. In the first image shown on this thread, and most of the clips, why can't simply hooking hard to the ribs or under the armpit and then maybe up to the head be an effective deterrent to trying to clinch my head with both hands?
I used to do something like that anytime someone tried to grab me with both hands. As soon as they try to reach out to me, I start peppering them strong to the face. Also tight uppercuts seem like a good way to go. Also, instead of just blocking with both hands for the knee strikes, I like to use the point of my elbow down onto the top of their knee and then uppercut to chin. A lot of times they would be discouraged to use those knees once my elbow had point struck the top of the knee near the kneecap. But like I said, I'm not a true hard core mma style fighter. Just my observations based on a little fighting experience.

Hooks to the body and head and upper cuts are fine once you have established a base, BUT the problem is to throw those punches you need space and space is also what he want to knee you, and a knee to the face beats a hook to the body normally. And it also require a solid base which the other guy is going to try like hell to remove so he can knee you cleanly, hes not going to just stand their and knee, he is snapping down, pushing and pulling, stepping and turning you all the time looking to off balance you and then knee.

Most guys with clinching skills reach with one hand first and have one hand up guarding and will be applying pressure to bend you over before the second hand comes out, so punching them on the way in isn’t so easy, or they will seek the clinch at the end of a combination or on the way back from throwing a wide hook, they normally wont try it straight off the bat so you will be defending punches and get clinched before you can react

Likewise they will seek to bury your head in their chest and hide their head either to the side (my preference) or on top of your head, making upper cuts hard and reducing the power you can put in your hooks to the head
when they hide their head to the side as in the pic someone else posted they reduce exposure to the hook (basically hiding half their head) and also tempt you to throw the hook to the side of the head they have left exposed in order to open your ribs up to knees (this makes headpeels etc easier for the guy defending but also opens up taking their back so as always their are pro and cons to everything)
blocking with the elbows is ok (we do that alot in the hakka arts) but again its not a static position most guys wont knee when you are set and have a base under you to defend from, they are snapping you down stepping and turning you etc in order to reduce your ability to brace and defend and punch back, thats one of the reasons shutting the hips down works: its a quick movement that you don’t really need to be set to do and can limit their ability to move you: punching them, elbowing their legs all require a firm base under you and a Thai guy is not going to allow you to keep that base, better to get good structure and work a escape than try to trade with someone in a superior position

[lkfmdc]

MT clinch nonexistent outside of Thailand?
Dunno if I agree with that one, but then almost all my MT coaches have been Thai (or Lao), except for Khun Kao who trained under Master K and my coach in Fort Worth who trained directly under Jongsanan. I'm certified under the guy that's largely responsible for Kevin Ross and Chaz Mulkey (ie Ajaan Nop) and I was able to hang in the clinch against one of Saeksan's students, so I have faith in what I'm learning.



irony! Because I'd say some of the few people teaching real Muay Thai here in the US include Jonsanan and Nop.... and being two of my friends are Jeremy Bellrose (under Jongsanan) and Kevin Ross....




MT clinch not for throws?
Well not for any type of shooting throws, hip throws, or pickups, but there are definitely a lot of trips. Just watch highlights of Saenchai.



According to the black and white rules of the Thailand Boxing Board, a lot of what Saenchai does is actually illegal, but he's Saenchai (and the Thais have never been consistent)

Technically speaking all Muay THai movements are "unbalances" not "throws"

[Kellen Bassette]

I see this weird phenomenon of Tae Kwon Do schools claiming muay thai as well as people with TKD backgrounds in mma claiming muay thai.

You've noticed that too?

Tying up with someone with poor clinching skills isn't uncomfortable at all, but a good clinch is a real sucky place to find yourself in.

[Kellen Bassette]

According to the black and white rules of the Thailand Boxing Board, a lot of what Saenchai does is actually illegal, but he's Saenchai (and the Thais have never been consistent)

Technically speaking all Muay THai movements are "unbalances" not "throws"

That's interesting, I've been told you can't throw from "bear hug" in modern MT; but in Thailand we were drilling this move as a ring technique. I also saw it published in a book under modern ring techniques.

Maybe it's open to some interpretation with what techs they let slide? I know they made me work the toss from "bear hug" but hollered at me whenever I used a hip toss....

Of course if you got the balls to do handstand kicks like Saenchai, you should be allowed to do anything.....:cool:

[Kymus]

That's interesting, I've been told you can't throw from "bear hug" in modern MT; but in Thailand we were drilling this move as a ring technique. I also saw it published in a book under modern ring techniques.

Maybe it's open to some interpretation with what techs they let slide? I know they made me work the toss from "bear hug" but hollered at me whenever I used a hip toss....

Of course if you got the balls to do handstand kicks like Saenchai, you should be allowed to do anything.....:cool:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0e6_1313113135

I.... think you're right.. sheesh

[Kellen Bassette]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0e6_1313113135

I.... think you're right.. sheesh

Koing your sparring partner? Really Saenchai?????

[phoenix-eye]

I know the guy in that video (tord) very well and they were joking around. There was no malice in that at all.

You are allowed to "throw" from the clinch in MT but only by unbalancing them over your knee/thigh. Its not so much a throw but an unbalancing. You can't do hip throws or anything like that.

[Kymus]

Koing your sparring partner? Really Saenchai?????

lol rite? he's all "oooooh I knocked him out? ooooh sorry sorry I didn't mean to!! RU OK?"

lmao

[Kellen Bassette]

I know the guy in that video (tord) very well and they were joking around. There was no malice in that at all.


Still must have been pretty cool to spar with him, even with a headache....I'd have posted the video myself....:D

[Pork Chop]

irony! Because I'd say some of the few people teaching real Muay Thai here in the US include Jonsanan and Nop.... and being two of my friends are Jeremy Bellrose (under Jongsanan) and Kevin Ross....


Well, it might be a matter of perspective then...
Personally, I don't think it's that few...

The UK started off with just Toddy & Sken.
Toddy bolted just like he did recently and Sken produced Danny Green.
Decades later you get a Liam Harrison.

On the flip side, the States has:
Kru Puk (Surapuk Jamjuntr - MTA in Cali)
Kru Pong (Houston)
Master K (New Jersey)
Vut Kamnaruk (well at least at one time)
Saeksan (Plano)
Ajarn Chai (Cali)
Ganyao (Cali)
Jongsanan (Cali)
Bunkerd (Cali)
Malaipet (Cali)
Neungsiam (Cali)
Coke Chunawat (Cali & Plano)
BM Sasiprapa (Cali & Plano)
Kaensak (New Jersey)
Coban (New York)
Kronphet (Cali & Austin)
Lerdsila (Cali)
Kongnapa BM Service (Cali)
Matee (Michigan)
Khunpon (Atlanta)
Nop (Vegas & Cali)
Sakmongkol (Colorado)

After that is a bunch of guys maybe you never heard of like Ngamkhao, my coaches (Kru Phet & Kru Vong), the pad holders Toddy brought in and left here,

Don't even get me started on the legit non-Thai guys like Melchor Menor, Hyena, DeLuca, Strottemeyer, Matt Nielsen, Khun Kao, Cosmo, Megalodon, Vivek, man we could be here a while...

As far as off balancing rules, there are some that aren't sanctioned but aren't strictly forbidden. Technically they won't score, but they'll leave an impression in the judges' minds. It's not like Saenchai's doing the bear hug where u put your head in the guys chest & crank his lower back, or slams, or big hip throws.

[Yum Cha]

Nice technical post Frost, thanks for the good oil.