Chinese Martial Arts before the JingWu

[MightyB]

So I feel like stirring the pot today and in the spirit of Shaolin (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66021) - let us discuss how the Jing Wu affected and created our perception of the post modern TCMA movement. First, some reading assignments: http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/05/24/fighting-styles-or-martial-brands-an-economic-approach-to-understanding-lost-lineages-in-the-chinese-martial-arts/


We know that certain brands did spread quickly in the late 19th and early 20th century. Taiji Quan and Bagua are classic examples of this, but so are White Crane and Hung Gar in the south. Jingwu, the “Pure Martial” movement out of Shanghai, modeled in some ways on the YMCA, was the first really successful “national brand.” It managed to establish itself throughout all of the major cities of eastern and southern China, and much of the South East Asian diaspora as well.

Jingwu (which was actually run by a group of intelligent you businessmen) carefully observed and learned from the experience of previous groups. Rather than relying passively on newspaper stories and martial arts novels they actively cultivated new ways of using the press and advertising in magazines in an attempt to spread their message of national salvation. The Nationalist Government studied these efforts in detail and appropriated them in the creation of their own martial brand, the highly politicized “Central Guoshu Institute.”

http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2012/08/15/reevaluating-jingwu-would-brucle-lee-have-existed-without-it/


The popularity of traditional forms of hand combat reached a low point after the Boxer Uprising and many middle class urban intellectuals actively questioned whether the Chinese martial arts should even continue to exist. They seemed too factional, too backwards and too unscientific to be part of the modern society that the May 4th reformers imagined. Many students of physical education were more than happy to toss hand combat on the scrapheap of history and replace it with something truly modern and scientific, like Prussian military drills, or American ballgames.

Gratefully that did not happen. In fact, just when the predictions of Kung Fu’s imminent demise reached their loudest crescendo a new actor appeared on the scene in the form of the Jingwu (Pure Martial) association. Jingwu had a new and unique approach to teaching the martial arts. They began by collecting forms and synthesizing a number of popular northern styles to create a truly unified and modern boxing curriculum. They then developed instructional techniques based on large classes and the use of line exercises that would allow a single instructor to teach many students rapidly.

Discuss.

[MightyB]

http://chinesemartialstudies.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/jingwupublictraining-shanghai-hq-1919.jpg
Sub E Lo Tom Toy (spelling?) number 4
This is a pic that the author used to show a typical line drill for a large group. He highlights the matching uniform and the single instructor that we see in a lot of styles of martial arts.

[MightyB]

Since the curriculum was always the same it was relatively easy to set up a franchise system and the quality of the product produced was predictable and reproducible across China’s vast expanses. Further, whereas traditional instructors might demand decades of a student’s life, it was possible to master the Jingwu system and become an instructor in about five years. Pretty much anyone who really applied themselves could do it. Their training methods were safe, hygienic and really improved fitness. In short, where many of the traditional methods of instruction had resembled a guild system, designed to restrict access to knowledge (and therefore economic competition from new schools) Jingwu became a factory for producing the next generation of reform-minded martial arts instructors.


These individuals had made their fortunes selling products in China’s rapidly growing commercial marketplace, and they realized that martial instruction was just like any other product. It could be systematized, branded, advertised and sold. So they advertised and sold it on a massive scale.


They were no longer selling boxing lessons, their product was now nothing less than national salvation. Of course to achieve the salvation that Jingwu promised the reach of the traditional arts (as interpreted and understood by their specially trained instructors) would have to be broadened.


Jingwu, through its appeals to nationalism and modernism was for the first time able to attract large numbers of middle class urban professionals to the martial arts.
..........

[MightyB]

so now for my part of the discussion.

IMO I think a lot of the practices we rebel against as wannabe fighters started in the JingWu... maybe not intentionally, but nevertheless, they're there.

What are those practices specifically? Well to me I think the notion of accumulating forms as a symbol of rank started at the JingWu. Also, to appeal to the modern urban Chinese of the post Boxer uprising, they had to sanitize Kung Fu. They did this by focusing less on the physical aspect of fighting, and more on the cultural and health aspects of Wu De.

[MightyB]

Brian Kennedy sometimes posts here, but if anyone can give an informed opinion on the effects of the Jing Wu on TCMA, it's Brian. (http://www.amazon.com/Jingwu-School-that-Transformed-Kung/dp/1583942424/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1371733657&sr=8-1&keywords=brian+kennedy+jing+wu)

[MightyB]

My interest is in

What were the Chinese martial arts like before the Jing Wu?

How did they practice when the expectation of the practitioners was that they'd use the skills to fight? - since they were usually practiced by peasants looking for a better job as a guard or bandit, or they were practiced by professional soldiers.

Do some of those traditional methods survive today?

What can we learn about combat efficacy by looking at the pre Jing Wu era?

[MasterKiller]

LKFMDC has made this argument about 1,000 times already.

[MightyB]

LKFMDC has made this argument about 1,000 times already.

I don't care about the argument, I would like to discuss and learn...

What were the Chinese martial arts like before the Jing Wu?

How did they practice when the expectation of the practitioners was that they'd use the skills to fight? - since they were usually practiced by peasants looking for a better job as a guard or bandit, or they were practiced by professional soldiers.

Do some of those traditional methods survive today?

What can we learn about combat efficacy by looking at the pre Jing Wu era?

[bawang]

thanks for asking question that people answered 5000 times. I would love to answer it again.

[David Jamieson]

I would say that Jing Wu was a response to "the sick man of asia" being the western eye on China in many respects. it had to do more with the overall health and ability of the citizenry, but at the same time was implemented to create different optics about Chinese peoples to the western military and merchants who were getting involved in the economy of China and not to mention, pushing the opium trade.

I think Jing Wu wasn't necessarily contaminated by the crazy religious nonsense that the peasant army of boxers suffered from and instead was an institution of martial arts and health more associated with lifting the people up and out from the disparaging eyes of foreigner and of course, themselves.

I think the biggest hurdle is the cultural aspect fro a lot of people. There are admittedly many who think that doing chinese martial arts ha smore to do with mimcing an idea of what chinese is and chinese martial arts are. Movies and wuxia tales have indeed tainted reality.

Having said that, there have always been fighters. they come and go and I believe the Jing Wu even arranged lei tai etc.

Kung Fu before the Jing Wu was still a lot of different styles and a lot of different methods.

People can argue all day long about what they think of one training methodology over another. It's moot to complain about a time you never even existed in. Truth is, the Jing Wu exists NOW today and is all over. There are many variants of what and how it is practiced and taught in each especially since a great many of these jing wu schools have merely co-opted the name to derive a connection, possibly to ride on reputation or maybe just out of typical ignorance akin to mashing kanji and traditional chinese characters together etc etc.

Still pictures of people doing line drills isn't much different from disciplined training in military ranks. This type of training in large groups has to follow a military model in many respects and so, it does.

I think disparaging views of Kung Fu based on vague reckonings of what one personally likes or dislikes is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Kung fu was not so different really. It still had a wide variety of ways of being taught before the Jing Wu came on the scene.

[Kellen Bassette]

so now for my part of the discussion.

IMO I think a lot of the practices we rebel against as wannabe fighters started in the JingWu... maybe not intentionally, but nevertheless, they're there.


Agreed, the large class-line style training, systematized form curriculum, branding and franchising, all lead to the modern Mc Dojo.

[bawang]

Agreed, the large class-line style training, systematized form curriculum, branding and franchising, all lead to the modern Mc Dojo.

jingwu and the guoshu program couldn't succeed because the hardline traditional styles refused to participate after the boxer rebellion. jingwu was a collection of street performers.

[Kellen Bassette]

jingwu and the guoshu program couldn't succeed because the hardline traditional styles refused to participate after the boxer rebellion. jingwu was a collection of street performers.

But it seems they did succeed in some regards. Their model is now standard for TMA, Chinese or otherwise.

[bawang]

But it seems they did succeed in some regards. Their model is now standard for TMA, Chinese or otherwise.

I don't see how its susccessful. nobody trains kungfu today, in china or America.

[Kellen Bassette]

I don't see how its susccessful. the kung fu business model rises and collapses in about 10 years. the mentality is not sustainable. in America 70-80s, in china 80s-90s.

Interesting...like some sort if Gong Fu pyramid scheme....

[bawang]

Interesting...like some sort if Gong Fu pyramid scheme....

the entire system is not based on posititve attitudes like loyalty, courage honor, but based on negative mentality like passive aggressive, gossiping, self promotion, jealousy, greed.

after people get what they paid for, they leave immediately.

[Kellen Bassette]

the entire system is not based on posititve attitudes like loyalty, courage honor, but based on negative mentality like passive aggressive, gossiping, self promotion, jealousy, greed.

after people get what they paid for, they leave immediately.

I have often observed a much greater sense of brotherhood amongst those that train together as fighters, as opposed to those who train together as martial "artists."

Similar to the cliches one would come to expect from a group of military men, opposed to a cast of actors.....

[bawang]

I have often observed a much greater sense of brotherhood amongst those that train together as fighters, as opposed to those who train together as martial "artists."

Similar to the cliches one would come to expect from a group of military men, opposed to a cast of actors.....

you cant have meaningful relationship with someone you pay money for.

just like a prostitute doesn't love you, when you pay money for a sifu, hes not your real sifu.

[MightyB]

you cant have meaningful relationship with someone you pay money for.

just like a prostitute doesn't love you, when you pay money for a sifu, hes not your real sifu.

Yes and No. Sometimes you pay not out of a sense of obligation, but out of the realization that it takes real money to pay for that building you're using, or those new shiny weapons that you practice with, or having clean mats in good repair... and sometimes it's just a matter of respect in the sense that you acknowledge that there is a value and a worth to what that teacher is transmitting to you.

It's a different story if the guy's just a shyster and he's ripping you off.

[bawang]

Yes and No. Sometimes you pay not out of a sense of obligation, but out of the realization that it takes real money to pay for that building you're using, or those new shiny weapons that you practice with, or having clean mats in good repair... and sometimes it's just a matter of respect in the sense that you acknowledge that there is a value and a worth to what that teacher is transmitting to you.

It's a different story if the guy's just a shyster and he's ripping you off.

when I think about my first sifu, I sometimes cry. its something you cant understand.

jingwu is a joke. if you want to know the real story of kung fu, ask about the boxer rebellion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Whenever you take a system of H2H combat that was designed to be trained on a 1-on-1 basis and customized to the individual and teach it in a class/group environment you get Jing wu simply because that is the ONLY way to get any results and the military is a perfect example.

And to further the military analogy:
What happens when you pass "basic training"?
You get 1-on-1 specialized training.

The issue is never the group environment per say, that is the only way to train multiple people, the issue was that when people outgrew it, there was ( typically) nothing for them.

[MightyB]

when I think about my first sifu, I sometimes cry. its something you cant understand. when someone doesn't charge money, it is a sacrifice. he tears out his heart to you. he is your life coach and second father. going out eating some pork buns doesn't make you "connected". then again, maybe some people don't know what having a real father feels like in the first place.

Sacrifice goes both ways. With that being said - I haven't had to pay for kung fu for years, yet I still pay for the reasons I outlined previously. Be careful with your assumptions.



jingwu is not important. jingwu is worthless. if you want to know the real story of kung fu, ask about the boxer rebellion.

The story is the Boxer Rebellion forced modernization on the Chinese and almost literally killed the realz kung fu. Peasants were duped into shamanistic deity worship and told they were impervious to bullets. The few legit kung fu masters who participated were ostracized and or killed. The ones who didn't participate we're ostracized and forced into retirement, and or lost heart in kung fu effectiveness, and or lost the military and government's faith in kung fu training...

[bawang]

Sacrifice goes both ways. With that being said - I haven't had to pay for kung fu for years, yet I still pay for the reasons I outlined previously. Be careful with your assumptions.
ok




The story is the Boxer Rebellion forced modernization on the Chinese and almost literally killed the realz kung fu. Peasants were duped into shamanistic deity worship and told they were impervious to bullets. The few legit kung fu masters who participated were ostracized and or killed. The ones who didn't participate we're ostracized and forced into retirement, and or lost heart in kung fu effectiveness, and or lost the military and government's faith in kung fu training...

are you educating me on the boxer rebellion?

[MightyB]

Whenever you take a system of H2H combat that was designed to be trained on a 1-on-1 basis and customized to the individual and teach it in a class/group environment you get Jing wu simply because that is the ONLY way to get any results and the military is a perfect example.

And to further the military analogy:
What happens when you pass "basic training"?
You get 1-on-1 specialized training.

The issue is never the group environment per say, that is the only way to train multiple people, the issue was that when people outgrew it, there was ( typically) nothing for them.

It's not the group training that's an issue and the Jing Wu did a lot of great things and made it possible for some of the greatest masters to get exposure and make a living teaching full time.

But I think the notion that an accumulation of forms somehow equate to rank or skill was started in that system.

[bawang]

It's not the group training that's an issue and the Jing Wu did a lot of great things and made it possible for some of the greatest masters to get exposure and make a living teaching full time.

But I think the notion that an accumulation of forms somehow equate to rank or skill was started in that system.

jingwu said weight lifting is bad, doing tan tui will make you strong. its a garbage organization with garbage martial artists.

its also gave birth to proto-wushu, teaching forms as choreographed movement.

[MightyB]

ok





are you educating me on the boxer rebellion?

no, just presenting a counter view point.


By late in 1899 inter-community violence was breaking out between chinese Christians (often armed with modern western rifles) and anti-foreign Boxers (armed with spears and swords) in Baoding. The area saw repeated massacres in February and March of 1900, when things started to spiral out of control. Some of the most important violence of the early Uprising happened along the Baoding-Beijing railway to the east of the city.

Joseph W. Esherick reviews events in and around Baoding in his groundbreaking study The Origins of the Boxer Uprising (1987). Most of the “Boxers” were impressionable country youth rather than sophisticated martial artists. Many of them relied on spirit possession and magical formula for their military power, not years of formal training. Still, it is undeniable that many martial arts schools in the region were caught up in the violence. Others foresaw tragedy on the horizon and tried desperately to distance themselves from the coming cataclysm.

It would appear that Sun was in the later camp. By moving his family to Shijiazhuang they avoided the brutal waves of inter-community violence, and later western retaliation, that tore Baoding apart. It would certainly be interesting to know the fate of his Baoding students from this period, whether they too fled or if they stayed to fight. Cheng Ting Hua, Sun’s Bagua teacher and the individual who sent him on his quest to study Daoism, was shot and killed by German troops during their sack of Beijing.

His new home was also far enough from the capital that he could continue to practice and teach the martial arts in the years after the Uprising. This is significant as schools were being closed and martial artists were forced underground across the country. In this period public sentiment turned decidedly against boxing and the traditional martial arts came closer to extinction than they have been before or since.

As a young man Sun Lu Tang was very interested in the practical applications of his fighting arts, something that is still reflected in the basic structure of Sun Taiji. He fought in a number of challenge matches and worked as a guard and bodyguard. However, later in his career he claimed that the martial arts were really for health maintenance and self-cultivation. He famously told his students that if they wanted to fight they should “get a gun.” One wonders how much of this shift in his attitude had to do with his philosophically inspired wandering, and how much of it can be attributed to the utter destruction of Baoding (and the murder of Cheng Ting Hua) during the throws of the Boxer Uprising.

http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/01/07/lives-of-the-chinese-martial-artists-4-sun-lutang-and-the-invention-of-the-traditional-chinese-martial-arts-part-i/

[MightyB]

jingwu said weight lifting is bad, doing tan tui will make you strong. its a garbage organization with garbage martial artists.

its also gave birth to proto-wushu, teaching forms as choreographed movement.

http://books.google.com/books?id=fWv26Msr0bkC&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=jingwu+weight+lifting&source=bl&ots=s1kZmS5cl2&sig=DAT_IE5id2ytE6DffilHI9MKlv4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iSDDUYD7D5D5rAGt84DIDw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=jingwu%20weight%20lifting&f=false


The Jingwu added a modern, Western spin to traditional Chinese weightlifting, and imported Western-style barbells and dumbbells for their members to use.
.........

[bawang]

http://books.google.com/books?id=fWv26Msr0bkC&pg=PA116&lpg=PA116&dq=jingwu+weight+lifting&source=bl&ots=s1kZmS5cl2&sig=DAT_IE5id2ytE6DffilHI9MKlv4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=iSDDUYD7D5D5rAGt84DIDw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=jingwu%20weight%20lifting&f=false


.........

I have the 1920s jingwu tantui article where they said lifting weights is bad, so I don't know.

[MightyB]

I have the 1920s jingwu tantui article where they said lifting weights is bad, so I don't know.

I hear ya man... too many inconsistencies in the historical record probably due to the size of the organization. I really want to read the Kennedy book now. The part about Pici stick fighting seems very interesting. From the bit I could read on google books, it presents some good counter arguments to my assumptions about the Jing Wu and it's influence.

[bawang]

no, just presenting a counter view point.



http://chinesemartialstudies.com/2013/01/07/lives-of-the-chinese-martial-artists-4-sun-lutang-and-the-invention-of-the-traditional-chinese-martial-arts-part-i/

the boxer rebellion was not based in superstition. the leaders of the boxer rebellion knew exactly what they were doing. this is the ultimate result of the power of kung fu on someones mind. that's why the kmt guoshu program removed all religious and combat aspects out of kung fu. this is why even some rational westerners go crazy after training traditional kung fu.

indoctrination methods in kung fu like carrot on a stick, smoke and mirrors, advancing meaningless ranks, hidden secret at the end of training, excruciating painful exercises, come straight from white lotus.

[David Jamieson]

From jingmo.org:

Tai Chien's (A.K.A. Sik Kuen) Philosophy (1970's)



“Two things which impeded kung fu are the instructors themselves. Many follow blindly to the way they were taught. Some are not open minded enough to accept other styles as their equal and overcome the superiority syndrome. We must bear in mind that in every style there is benefits for everyone to gain.”



"The position of Sifu is not for the purpose of the Sifu to show off but to cultivate new students and to help persevere the Chinese martial arts.”



“The knowledge of martial arts is not just reading a few ancient novels of martial arts. It is important to the martial art cultivation of a person. One can never make great achievements if one confines the learning to one style and pay no respect to the strong points of other styles. Therefore a martial artist must have a broad knowledge and he must be modest technically, not contenting himself with one style of his own and negating other styles. In short, one must have a rich knowledge of martial arts.”

Does this sound like a deluded fairy dancer? Or is this the same horn some of you guys are blowing?

Diminishment of the idea of one person in time or small parts of an overarching concept is in my mind the game of a dull mind. In the end you aren't anyone else but you. If you enjoy what you enjoy, you don't have to justify yourself to anyone, ever.

If they don't like what you do? Screw them, they aren't being invited to do it. If guys from on world want to change another to be more like there's? All the more reason to resist that.

The whole presentation of "kung fu" is bad because of the reasons given is shoddy and not well thought out. If you are a Kung Fu person and you think it's bad, then change yourself, make your Kung fu what you think it should be instead of trying to find a place in someone else's experience. Find your own if you think yourself better. While you really work on it instead of blowing hard as many do, your own sense of ridiculing others where it is not merited will disappear.

[bawang]

While you really work on it instead of blowing hard as many do, your own sense of ridiculing others where it is not merited will disappear.
I am so glad you have decided to change your ways, fdavif jamesion. I am proud of you. it takes a lot of courage to write an apology like that.

[David Jamieson]

I am so glad you have decided to change your ways, fdavif jamesion. I am proud of you. it takes a lot of courage to write an apology like that.

Jim, you are such a troll. lol
Read an old newspaper then take out your racist anger on old white karate men. :p
That is your Kung Fu.

[IronWeasel]

Jim, you are such a troll. lol
Read an old newspaper then take out your racist anger on old white karate men. :p
That is your Kung Fu.



Jim?


ha.....

[bawang]

Jim, you are such a troll. lol
Read an old newspaper then take out your racist anger on old white karate men. :p
That is your Kung Fu.

what the hell does racism have to do with anything?

[David Jamieson]

Jim?


ha.....

yeah, and I'm bones, what of it?

It's the only way I get to remark at the end of the fight with: "He's dead Jim"

we're star trek fans...

tai ghak yin is spock and ten tigers is pike and lkfmdc is nurse chapel.

we larp on friday afternoons.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the boxer rebellion was not based in superstition. the leaders of the boxer rebellion knew exactly what they were doing. this is the ultimate result of the power of kung fu on someones mind. that's why the kmt guoshu program removed all religious and combat aspects out of kung fu. this is why even some rational westerners go crazy after training traditional kung fu.

indoctrination methods in kung fu like carrot on a stick, smoke and mirrors, advancing meaningless ranks, hidden secret at the end of training, excruciating painful exercises, come straight from white lotus.

Yes, there is truth here.
Lots of "visualization" techniques and such can cause mental issues, not to mention when you start delving into the "animal possession" stuff and "sun dar".

[David Jamieson]

Yes, there is truth here.
Lots of "visualization" techniques and such can cause mental issues, not to mention when you start delving into the "animal possession" stuff and "sun dar".

I think the results showed us what a pile of crap that was.

[lkfmdc]

I am really glad to see all this stuff discussed here!

I have written a lot of similar stuff and I STRONGLY recommend people read stuff like Brian Kennedy and Stanley Henning for example....

How to summarize complicated stuff?

The vision we have of TCMA today was filtered through the late 19th and early 20th century and the very real social and historical contexts of those times

Most educated elite viewed TCMA as "bad"
- it was physical activity, you got sweaty and dirty
- it was done by rude, ignorant, superstitious peasants
- it glorified violence and disrupted social order

The fiasco of the boxer uprising gave most society a very negative impression of martial arts. Elites such as Lu Xun denounced TCMA people

In addition, the entire society was starting to have doubts about the virtues of traditional Chinese society, the "new culture movement" basically said China's culture was the reason for all its political woes

TCMA might have completely died in this period if not for some historical ironies

Strong nationalist sentiments, militaristic in nature, the REAL "May 4th" (which many scholars themselves confuse with "new culture") called for a nation strong enough to defend against foreign intrustion. Highly nationalistic and xenophobic in nature, TCMA was turned to as the native source of a revitalized militarized nation

Other intellectuals, many more liberal in leanings were introduced the new physical education movement and it's ideas. They saw problems such as public health, physical and mental hygene as potentially served by a new appraoch to TCMA

Of course, educated and liberal, they wanted a "new" approach to TCMA, with the violence and superstition removed, ie a sanitized TCMA

Finally, polirtically martial arts had always been the source of regional uprisings, used by criminal elements and produced men not loyal to society but to their lineage, men-pai, teachers, clans and secret societies

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the results showed us what a pile of crap that was.

Depends on the context.
Ever heard of the "berserkers"?
Same concept really.
Every nation/culture/society/warrior cast had their version and to the degree it worked depended on what it was used for.

[David Jamieson]

Depends on the context.
Ever heard of the "berserkers"?
Same concept really.
Every nation/culture/society/warrior cast had their version and to the degree it worked depended on what it was used for.

Berserkers, yes. Not a lot of good history on them but they were known.

The boxers were duped by shamanistic frauds.
The proof of that is running at line infantry armed with rifles while all you have is a sword and a talisman. They resolved nothing and are still ridiculed for their magical beliefs in the here and now.

Berserkers had no guns to fear, were often mounted, ate hash and drank their enemies blood straight from the neck. Huge difference between that and some religiously deluded farmers being used as pawns in a desperate attempt to ward off foreign invasion.

[bawang]

The boxers were duped by shamanistic frauds.
The proof of that is running at line infantry armed with rifles while all you have is a sword and a talisman. They resolved nothing and are still ridiculed for their magical beliefs in the here and now.

ur an ignorant moran.

the boxers lost because they were fighting against eight countries. after it was over all plans of colonization were abandoned, it seems pretty successful to me.

[David Jamieson]

ur an ignorant moran.

the boxers lost because they were fighting against eight countries, even including us marines.

*moron

the boxers lost because they thought Fu would stop bullets.
the boxers lost because militarily they were too far behind their opponents.
the boxers lost because they believed in fairy tales.
bottom line, the boxers lost, period.

not to mention, they killed more of their own people than the foreigners did.

[bawang]

*moron

the boxers lost because they thought Fu would stop bullets.
the boxers lost because militarily they were too far behind their opponents.
the boxers lost because they believed in fairy tales.
bottom line, the boxers lost, period.

not to mention, they killed more of their own people than the foreigners did.

this is the legacy of Chinese martial arts. no matter how ugly and horrible and primitive it is, this is the tradition you chose to dabble in.

im not supporting the boxers, but this is part of history. just because you don't like something doesn't mean you can bury it. you move on from history, but you don't deny history.

[Kymus]

ur an ignorant moran.

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/gospeldrivenchurch/files/2013/02/get-a-brain-morans.jpg

[David Jamieson]

this is the legacy of Chinese martial arts. no matter how ugly and horrible and primitive it is, this is the tradition you chose to dabble in.

im not supporting the boxers, but this is part of history. just because you don't like something doesn't mean you can bury it.

lol, I don't dabble in that.

I have nothing against real Kung Fu and I don't have much in me in the way of Chinese nationalism or shamanistic religions really. Also, I"m pretty aware that guns trump fists or blades.

[lkfmdc]

this is the legacy of Chinese martial arts. no matter how ugly and horrible and primitive it is,



not sure why, but I am trying to keep this thing on topic :p

far too many people want to forget or ignore the ugly, horrible and primitive




but this is part of history. just because you don't like something doesn't mean you can bury it. you move on from history, but you don't deny history.



exactly this, you can't know where you are or where you are going without knowing how you got there

[bawang]

lol, I don't dabble in that.

I have nothing against real Kung Fu and I don't have much in me in the way of Chinese nationalism or shamanistic religions really. Also, I"m pretty aware that guns trump fists or blades.

the hongquan and meihuaquan guys, shaolin monks, Mongolian warriors, and Tibetan lamas who joined the boxer rebellion are horrible primitive, stupid savages. LOL OK

you better stick with karate and taekwondo. they are less "ethnic".

[PalmStriker]

ur an ignorant moran.

the boxers lost because they were fighting against eight countries. after it was over all plans of colonization were abandoned, it seems pretty successful to me.

If the shoe fit the Han foot, you must admit. :D

[bawang]

If the shoe fit the Han foot, you must admit. :D

you are bak sil lum guy?

[rett]

acknowledge but rise above

that's what everything's about really, isn't it?

[lkfmdc]

acknowledge but rise above

that's what everything's about really, isn't it?

it IS a pretty simple formula isn't it? That's why I get irate when people try to DENY...

[David Jamieson]

the hongquan and meihuaquan guys, shaolin monks, Mongolian warriors, and Tibetan lamas who joined the boxer rebellion are horrible primitive, stupid savages. LOL OK

you better stick with karate and taekwondo. they are less "ethnic".

If you think your fists will beat out line infantry/ Yes, you are a stupid savage, that is correct.

I am directly stating that the boxers were made of all sorts. And yeah, probably a few from monasteries etc.

colonization didn't happen, but long term forced occupation did. HK to the British empire Macao to the Portugese and everything else was everything else.

Why on earth do you think that something like Shaolin or others which pre-existed the boxers is crap because of the boxers?

why do you think jing wu is the legacy of the boxers?

why do you think kung fu today is the legacy of the boxers?

Don't you think that painting all kung fu with the boxer brush is ignorant and moronic?

[lkfmdc]

why do you think kung fu today is the legacy of the boxers?



not ALL, but to say that nothing we have today is at all linked to the boxers is also off and dishonest

we still have stuff that is basically superstition and nonsesne, some of the stuff we think is advanced is just the same crap the boxers were selling those ignorant peasant boys

Lu Xun would have eradicated kung fu entirely

The Jing Wu founders would be proud of contempoary wushu!

The KMT actually employed a lot of the thugs and low lives

The CCP sent the thugs and low lives to the military and sent sanitized CMA to become wushu

We live with all four of these traditions simultaneously and intermingling

[SPJ]

1. Jin Wu athletic association.

They are designed to promote physical ability and health for general public.

2. Guo Shu

They are government sponsored schools.

They are tied to military and academic schools.

--

The rest is history.

:)

[Minghequan]

Bawang,

Thanks for you posts. I learn something everytime. Thank you again.

[bawang]

Bawang,

Thanks for you posts. I learn something everytime. Thank you again.

you are welcome, my son. go in pees.

[Kellen Bassette]

Bawang,

Thanks for you posts. I learn something everytime. Thank you again.

We are eternally grateful to Jim and all he has done for the forum.

[bawang]

We are eternally grateful to Jim and all he has done for the forum.

my name steve. steve johnsons. I am the whiteys like yous. do not be alarm. there are no dirty ethnics here, we can lower our guards.

[Kellen Bassette]

my name steve. steve johnsons. I am the whiteys like yous. do not be alarm. there are no dirty ethnics here, we can lower our guards.

Teach me da realz kung fu, like you do with your chocolate brothers and I will share my white privilege with you steves johnson.

[brianlkennedy]

The issue of what Chinese martial arts were like before the Jingwu is a very interesting one and one that have I long pondered both as a historian and as a Chinese martial arts practitioner. I have long wondered what a typical weeks worth of training would have involved for Sun Lu Tang, or for Hung Gar guys in the 1800s or Northern Shaolin guys in the 1700s, or how Chinese wrestlers trained back in the day.

The answer to those questions is----nobody has any idea. Training may have been very rigorous, very demanding or----it may have been utterly lackadaisical. There are, to my knowledge, no surviving documents before the early 1900s that detail to any degree what training was like. And of course training would vary from school to school or teacher to teacher. So, as much as I would wish to know what a typical training session was like with Lum Sai Wing (a famous Hung Gar teacher) or Sun Lu Tang or teachers from earlier ages—we will never know till the time machine gets invented.

Now a separate question, which maybe what is being asked, is what was the public perception of Chinese martial arts at the start of the Republican Era (roughly the early 1900s). That question is easier to answer and a large section of my book is devoted to talking about that. In a nutshell Chinese martial arts were held in very low regard, extremely low regard, by the Chinese public. My impression is that Chinese martial artists were seen as garbage. That simple. Sun Lu Tang got famous mostly because he was so odd; he was a Chinese martial artist who could actually read, write, put two sentences together and took regular baths. I don’t say that to be witty, I think it does reflect a historical reality.

I see the Jingwu (and related organizations) as being the single most important agency in the survival of traditional Chinese martial arts into the 20th and 21st century. Jingwu type organizations made martial arts respectable and brought Chinese martial arts out of the gutter. Now I don’t want to overstate the case, Chinese martial arts would not have disappeared off the face of the earth if the Jingwu had never been formed. But if the Jingwu had not existed I strongly suspect it would have been less likely that the subsequent Guo Shu and Wu Shu government sponsored programs would have come into existence.

Modern-Traditional Chinese martial arts owes its existence to the Jingwu, Wuxia novels and films, and the hard work of the Shaolin Tourism Board. Just kidding about the last part.
Take care,
Brian
p.s. in addition to my wife and I's book on the Jingwu, another outstanding book on the modern history of Chinese martial arts is Andrew Morris's Marrow of a Nation. Andrew is a good guy, a good scholar and a big supporter of Taiwanese baseball!!

[IronWeasel]

yeah, and I'm bones, what of it?

It's the only way I get to remark at the end of the fight with: "He's dead Jim"

we're star trek fans...

tai ghak yin is spock and ten tigers is pike and lkfmdc is nurse chapel.

we larp on friday afternoons.


Can I play?

...i have a red shirt.

[PalmStriker]

INTERMISSION: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfIX41QNWfw

[lkfmdc]

Having Brian Kennedy here is a wonderful thing, thanks so much for posting!


The issue of what Chinese martial arts were like before the Jingwu is a very interesting one and one that have I long pondered both as a historian and as a Chinese martial arts practitioner. I have long wondered what a typical weeks worth of training would have involved for Sun Lu Tang, or for Hung Gar guys in the 1800s or Northern Shaolin guys in the 1700s, or how Chinese wrestlers trained back in the day.

The answer to those questions is----nobody has any idea. Training may have been very rigorous, very demanding or----it may have been utterly lackadaisical. There are, to my knowledge, no surviving documents before the early 1900s that detail to any degree what training was like. And of course training would vary from school to school or teacher to teacher. So, as much as I would wish to know what a typical training session was like with Lum Sai Wing (a famous Hung Gar teacher) or Sun Lu Tang or teachers from earlier ages—we will never know till the time machine gets invented.

Now a separate question, which maybe what is being asked, is what was the public perception of Chinese martial arts at the start of the Republican Era (roughly the early 1900s). That question is easier to answer and a large section of my book is devoted to talking about that. In a nutshell Chinese martial arts were held in very low regard, extremely low regard, by the Chinese public. My impression is that Chinese martial artists were seen as garbage. That simple. Sun Lu Tang got famous mostly because he was so odd; he was a Chinese martial artist who could actually read, write, put two sentences together and took regular baths. I don’t say that to be witty, I think it does reflect a historical reality.

I see the Jingwu (and related organizations) as being the single most important agency in the survival of traditional Chinese martial arts into the 20th and 21st century. Jingwu type organizations made martial arts respectable and brought Chinese martial arts out of the gutter. Now I don’t want to overstate the case, Chinese martial arts would not have disappeared off the face of the earth if the Jingwu had never been formed. But if the Jingwu had not existed I strongly suspect it would have been less likely that the subsequent Guo Shu and Wu Shu government sponsored programs would have come into existence.

Modern-Traditional Chinese martial arts owes its existence to the Jingwu, Wuxia novels and films, and the hard work of the Shaolin Tourism Board. Just kidding about the last part.
Take care,
Brian
p.s. in addition to my wife and I's book on the Jingwu, another outstanding book on the modern history of Chinese martial arts is Andrew Morris's Marrow of a Nation. Andrew is a good guy, a good scholar and a big supporter of Taiwanese baseball!!

[lkfmdc]

another outstanding book on the modern history of Chinese martial arts is Andrew Morris's Marrow of a Nation. Andrew is a good guy, a good scholar and a big supporter of Taiwanese baseball!!

wonderful book that I would strongly recommend to anyone

[Kymus]

in addition to my wife and I's book on the Jingwu, another outstanding book on the modern history of Chinese martial arts is Andrew Morris's Marrow of a Nation. Andrew is a good guy, a good scholar and a big supporter of Taiwanese baseball!!

I'm interested but.... I have zero interest in non-martial-arts based sports :(

......except rhythmic gymnastics :D

[lkfmdc]

I'm interested but.... I have zero interest in non-martial-arts based sports :(

......except rhythmic gymnastics :D

the one chapter about guo shu is worth the price of the book alone

[Kymus]

the one chapter about guo shu is worth the price of the book alone

I'll check it out then, thanks!

[Yum Cha]

I don't care about the argument, I would like to discuss and learn...

What were the Chinese martial arts like before the Jing Wu?

How did they practice when the expectation of the practitioners was that they'd use the skills to fight? - since they were usually practiced by peasants looking for a better job as a guard or bandit, or they were practiced by professional soldiers.

Do some of those traditional methods survive today?

What can we learn about combat efficacy by looking at the pre Jing Wu era?

Hmmmm....guards and bandits.

How about this, the Master has a big house, the boys live there and help out. Only a select few, picked from the bigger Pai. They train during the day in 'Security techniques' because Kung Fu is a 'forbidden old way'. At night the security company works 'on commission' doing security in places where the police don't go. You keep the contract by taking all challenges and winner takes the job. The people you work for don't have a sense of humour, and expect the job done right.

Or perhaps you work as a mercenary in Central America back during the Coffee Wars, and you train your crew in hand-to-hand when you're not out in the bush using it, along with machetes and guns. Around the camp, NCO rank if fought for, like a pack of wolves. You want a promotion, you kick the guy's ass. (BTW, David, that was Chan Hak Fu's Son, and it drove him crazy.)

First one I just made up because it sounded plausible.

[SPJ]

I Like Shang Wu better than Jin Wu

Jin Wu means essence or extract of martial

or mastering martial

cultivating spirits and character from physical exercises

Shang Wu

Like or favor martial

or emphasizing martial

all the good attributes of martial

---

[mickey]

Question:

After the fall of the Ching Dynasty, the military were without a source of employment.

Also the foreign powers in China were apprehensive over another boxer uprising. Reports of "Boxer" activity were reported in the North China Herald. Even the 10th anniversary book on the Ching Wu was reported in the same newspaper. What that book served to do was assign names to faces of masters who taught there. And I believe it was used as an execution list by the Japanese during their invasion of Shanghai. Chan Tzi Ching of Eagle Claw managed to get out of Shanghai (his photo was in the book). Luckily, Wang Zi Ping was in Nanjing. And I believe some masters fought. I believe many masters died because of that book; and, when I hold it in my hands, I am overwhelmed with sadness.


mickey

[bawang]

when I hold it in my hands, I am overwhelmed with sadness.


do not be cry. you can continue their spirit and legacy by doing forms badly, being weak, and not fighting.

[mickey]

Greetings bawang,

Weight training was apparently done there. There are a few photos in the book that showcased the body aesthetic, with leopard skins worn, much in the way Western strongmen did at the time. The cover of the book features the artwork of a man pushing the nation, Atlas like, above his head.

When you see the Praying Mantis style, a style that found its way to Ching Wu, still maintaining its fighting component by those whose lineage benefitted by their Association with Ching Wu, it can be honestly said that fighting was still practiced there. It may not have been as heavily emphasized. As a result of the Japanese invasion and the many that perished it is difficult to say that ALL of those guys were soft. And if they were, there would be no need to intelligence them.

I would dare say that if there were no Ching Wu, there would be no Mao to talk about.

mickey

[bawang]

hi mickey, its good to appreciate the history of kung fu. but American kung fu has a habit of glorifying what they learned into godlike proportions. jingwu was a famous gym but was also flawed.


jingwu wanted to revive kung fu, but none of the famous popular styles were invited. it was a chance for business minded martial artists to promote themselves.

jingwu wanted to standardize kung fu out of ignorance, but kung fu has been standardized for hundreds of years. instead jingwu helped create the system of modern wushu we see today.

[ngokfei]

Mickey:

Alot of the top military officials and their troops had already transfered loyalty over to the Republic. So alot of them still maintained their positions/jobs and just changed their uniforms and loyalty. This is why for the most part an easy coup. (something the USA didn't seem to think was valuable in Iraq and so the country fell in to.....)

Boxing and Weight Lifting did exist as part of the western physical education along with basketball and Gymnastics. My sifu gave me a book/manual of the Shanghai Chin Wu's Gymnastics/Acrobatics program. I'll have to find it and post the head teacher's name and picture.

Bawang

Please site your sources as I've been to quite a few Chin Wu locations especially Shanghai and there were many other teacher's involved of various styles (southern and northern) who taught under their banner. Documents and photos of these individuals are archived.

Many teachers were invited from the get go but only around 7 accepted the invitation but as the world spread some others accepted especially when they had expanded to open up other locations.

[mickey]

Thank you for the info, ngokfei.


mickey