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View Full Version : Would SLT be of any use if it was all you ever got to learn?



KungFubar
06-20-2013, 12:37 PM
Does SLT have any practical use without the other two if you never have a chance to learn any more?

guy b.
06-20-2013, 12:51 PM
No practical use at all

trubblman
06-20-2013, 12:58 PM
not likely

Eric_H
06-20-2013, 02:58 PM
YM Siu Nim Tao - no.

HFY Siu Nim Tao - yes.

KPM
06-20-2013, 03:20 PM
The first form learned for many of the southern systems is typically consider to be the "beginning and the end" of the system.....Siu Nim Tao in Wing Chun, Som Bo Gin in Southern Mantis, Jik Bo in Pak Mei. This is because they contain the fundamentals for the system. They are the beginning because they teach the newbie the basic motions and concepts of the system. But they are also the "end" because as one matures in the system on begins to see the deeper layers within the forms. So my answer is "yes." If someone only learned SNT along with the proper footwork, they could do pretty well without learning Chum Kiu or Biu Gee. They may be limited in how far they could go with it, but I still think it would have practical use.

GlennR
06-20-2013, 03:21 PM
Does SLT have any practical use without the other two if you never have a chance to learn any more?

Sure, i know plenty of guys that concentrate on SLT and go fine

Vajramusti
06-20-2013, 04:24 PM
Agree with KPM and Glenn.

JPinAZ
06-20-2013, 04:27 PM
agree with glenn, KPM and Eric :D

anerlich
06-20-2013, 05:11 PM
If all you did was the SLT form in YGKYM, then no.

If you only did SLT and not CK or BJ, but practised footwork, kicking, bagwork, partner drilling including chi sao, etc. like most MA students do, then yes.

Wayfaring
06-20-2013, 05:56 PM
agree with glenn, KPM and Eric :D

this.........

KungFubar
06-20-2013, 10:41 PM
If all you did was the SLT form in YGKYM, then no.

If you only did SLT and not CK or BJ, but practised footwork, kicking, bagwork, partner drilling including chi sao, etc. like most MA students do, then yes.

what is YGKYM?

Graham H
06-21-2013, 12:00 AM
Does SLT have any practical use without the other two if you never have a chance to learn any more?

Definately 100% NO!

GlennR
06-21-2013, 02:10 AM
If all you did was the SLT form in YGKYM, then no.

If you only did SLT and not CK or BJ, but practised footwork, kicking, bagwork, partner drilling including chi sao, etc. like most MA students do, then yes.

Thanks for that Andrew, id agree with the additional stuff without the other two forms

GlennR
06-21-2013, 02:10 AM
Definately 100% NO!

Ummmmmmmm........ no

LoneTiger108
06-21-2013, 02:15 AM
Does SLT have any practical use without the other two if you never have a chance to learn any more?

From what I generally see, and if your approach is just to copy a form and repeat over and over then no, SLT will not be of any practcal use at all.

But if you are taught SLT well, and encouraged to practice it thoroughly, then it will include taking it through it's paces and covering elements of training already mentioned here. And yes, it will serve you for the rest of your Martial Art life...

tc101
06-21-2013, 04:27 AM
Just to offer a different perspective. I know that today there is an established sequence that most people use because that is how most were taught of snt then ck then dummy then bj and that you learn form first then drills then application. But I wonder if this is really how things were done always. I have heard that teaching was usually much more piecemeal and unstructured where you learned movements or techniques first for example stepping with punching and only later learned forms. This is how I was taught. So my perspective is not that the snt is the first form since we learn that form first first but because that form is concerned with dominating the centerline which is plan a or what we try to do first. The ck is the second form not because of the learning sequence but because it is concerned with changing and breaking the centerline which is plan b or what we do if we cannot dominate it. The bj is third because that is plan c of what we do when we cannot dominate or change or break the centerline.

Graham H
06-21-2013, 05:41 AM
Ummmmmmmm........ no

Yes I agree. No.

Graham H
06-21-2013, 05:43 AM
So what do you think will work in an actual fight from SLT then peeps? That question is open to everyone.

This should be good.

trubblman
06-21-2013, 06:48 AM
Someone wrote that ( I paraphrase ) SLT plus footwork can be effective even if u dont learn CK or BJ. What does that mean? Chum kiu and biu gee contain the footwork. What footwork would one be learning if not chum kiu or biu gee? So to me the answer is no. Its not VT without CK or BG. Maybe u would be learning to fight but it would be a wholly different style from VT.

Graham H
06-21-2013, 06:58 AM
Someone wrote that ( I paraphrase ) SLT plus footwork can be effective even if u dont learn CK or BJ. What does that mean? Chum kiu and biu gee contain the footwork. What footwork would one be learning if not chum kiu or biu gee? So to me the answer is no. Its not VT without CK or BG. Maybe u would be learning to fight but it would be a wholly different style from VT.

I agree on the whole but what footwork are you referring to in BG?

There is no footwork in SLT only the exercise. In fact SLT with footwork is CK :)

Basic VT footwork is learnt in CK and the MYJ. In BG the thinking is different.

Care to explain further?

Kellen Bassette
06-21-2013, 06:58 AM
what is YGKYM?

Yee-Gee-Kim-Yeung-Ma, (Character "two" adduction stance.)

Kind of a high, pigeon toed horse stance.

Kellen Bassette
06-21-2013, 07:00 AM
Someone wrote that ( I paraphrase ) SLT plus footwork can be effective even if u dont learn CK or BJ. What does that mean?

Why wouldn't it be possible to learn footwork drills outside the forms?

KungFubar
06-21-2013, 07:05 AM
Yee-Gee-Kim-Yeung-Ma, (Character "two" adduction stance.)

Kind of a high, pigeon toed horse stance.

is it the same as goat stance?

trubblman
06-21-2013, 07:16 AM
Why wouldn't it be possible to learn footwork drills outside the forms?

By forms I am assuming u meant just SLT plus footwork drills. SLT plus footwork may be some martial art but it most assuredly is not Yip Man Wing Chun.

trubblman
06-21-2013, 07:21 AM
I agree on the whole but what footwork are you referring to in BG?

There is no footwork in SLT only the exercise. In fact SLT with footwork is CK :)

Basic VT footwork is learnt in CK and the MYJ. In BG the thinking is different.

Care to explain further?


Footwork in my opinion includes stepping and using body mechanics to infuse the techniques with power.

LoneTiger108
06-21-2013, 07:33 AM
Someone wrote that ( I paraphrase ) SLT plus footwork can be effective even if u dont learn CK or BJ. What does that mean? Chum kiu and biu gee contain the footwork. What footwork would one be learning if not chum kiu or biu gee? So to me the answer is no. Its not VT without CK or BG...
...SLT plus footwork may be some martial art but it most assuredly is not Yip Man Wing Chun.

Oh dear :o

I can see that this debate may just go on forever if your view on Wing Chun, and dare I say even Ip Mans style, is as narrow minded as this.

trubblman
06-21-2013, 07:37 AM
Oh dear :o

I can see that this debate may just go on forever if your view on Wing Chun, and dare I say even Ip Mans style, is as narrow minded as this.

Only if u misapprehend what I say. My point is only to say that there is no Wing Chun without Chum Kiu and Biu Gee - Its all a whole. Even if u do footwork drills and SLT thats not Yip Man Wing Chun without CK and BG. Its a wholly different martial art. I dont think that VT prescribes any particular footwork but I do think it consists of all three forms chi sao and the dummy. I dont know how this is a narrow minded POV. But I ll be happy to hear about Wing Chun practitioners who only learned SLT and did footwork drills.

Kellen Bassette
06-21-2013, 08:04 AM
By forms I am assuming u meant just SLT plus footwork drills.

That is correct.

KungFubar
06-21-2013, 08:22 AM
so if SLT is useless by itself, if someone were uber dedicated, how long would it take before anything he learned in WC would be useful or practical for self defense?

FongSung
06-21-2013, 08:23 AM
Only if u misapprehend what I say. My point is only to say that there is no Wing Chun without Chum Kiu and Biu Gee - Its all a whole.

FYI
I believe this is

"BY IP MAN HONG KONG FIRST STUDENT MASTER LEUNG SIONG:
SLT, Cham Kui, Bill Jee these three forms original is from one 108 SLT form, the reason of separate it to three different forms is for more easier on teaching syllabus purpose."

See attachment.

k gledhill
06-21-2013, 08:32 AM
is it the same as goat stance?

1-Yes aka HOLDING ; ) a goat for er clipping.
2-aka crane stance , pre-fight side stance aka fighting crane ( love that one and the image of a ****ed of crane ; ) )
3-aka basic training stance
4-aka triangle adduction stance
5-aka character two ( Cantonese ) stance
6-aka pigeon toe stance

The purpose is simply to condition your toes to turn inwards to help stabilize the hips.

BPWT
06-21-2013, 09:20 AM
1-Yes aka HOLDING ; ) a goat for er clipping.
2-aka crane stance , pre-fight side stance aka fighting crane ( love that one and the image of a ****ed of crane ; ) )
3-aka basic training stance
4-aka triangle adduction stance
5-aka character two ( Cantonese ) stance
6-aka pigeon toe stance

The purpose is simply to condition your toes to turn inwards to help stabilize the hips.

Yes, stabilizing the hips - in terms of adduction this happens with the thighs in relation to the hips. So in our line, stabilizing the hips is part of it, but the adduction itself (and its inward rotation) is to also create the necessary kim sut. So once you're in YJKYM you should be rotating in, sinking down, with energy forward.

trubblman
06-21-2013, 09:51 AM
Does SLT have any practical use without the other two if you never have a chance to learn any more?

Maybe it would be great for meditation by taking one hour to perform it, only if u are into that sort of thing.

k gledhill
06-21-2013, 10:02 AM
Yes, stabilizing the hips - in terms of adduction this happens with the thighs in relation to the hips. So in our line, stabilizing the hips is part of it, but the adduction itself (and its inward rotation) is to also create the necessary kim sut. So once you're in YJKYM you should be rotating in, sinking down, with energy forward.

Only a basic static posture many try to " waddle fight " in like the clown Leung Ting. More advanced fighting dynamics involving varying force vectors in unison with balance and fast shifting angling and pivoting to generate force to coincide with facing.

tc101
06-21-2013, 11:36 AM
Only a basic static posture many try to " waddle fight " in like the clown Leung Ting. More advanced fighting dynamics involving varying force vectors in unison with balance and fast shifting angling and pivoting to generate force to coincide with facing.

It might be that some of that clown's students could wipe the floor with you as some of them are very good at waddle fighting perhaps even better than you are with your advanced fighting dynamics. You do not need to insult and belittle others to express how you see things differently. For example some of us do not see the yee gee kim yeung ma as a basic static posture like you but have learned that it is the basis for learning how to receive and generate power and is a very important part of wing chun yet I don't belittle you for not knowing this basic level wing chun. I just look at it as a different viewpoint.

BPWT
06-21-2013, 12:13 PM
Only a basic static posture many try to " waddle fight " in like the clown Leung Ting.

You, like Graham, continue to show that you really have little to no idea and no manners either. You are a credit to your teacher, Kevin. (but while you're stinging folks for $200 one-day seminars, who cares, eh?)

Grumblegeezer
06-21-2013, 12:52 PM
Only a basic static posture many try to " waddle fight " in like the clown Leung Ting.

Kevin, you must be thinking of a different "clown Leung Ting" than the guy I trained with years ago. He didn't "waddle-fight" in YGKYM. He favored an explosive "advancing step" to close on his opponents. Then depending on the situation and force received, he applied pretty much what you stated below:
...More advanced fighting dynamics involving varying force vectors in unison with balance and fast shifting angling and pivoting to generate force to coincide with facing.

Actually, I have seen other WC groups who do favor fighting out of YGKYM, such as the TST lineage, but I am not nearly arrogant enough to dismiss what they do as "waddling", ...even if I don't agree with it. Well, at least not on a public forum.

guy b.
06-21-2013, 01:04 PM
I am not nearly arrogant enough to dismiss what they do as "waddling", ...even if I don't agree with it. Well, at least not on a public forum.

Arrogant enough..maybe you just aren't honest enough?

k gledhill
06-21-2013, 01:08 PM
Touched a nerve have we ? : )
I have had several LT students, one asked me to kick her in the groin so she could show me how the LT school taught her to pinch her knees as a block of my kick ... She then waddled forwards asking me to kick her , I declined ; ) but to this day share the experience.
Another LT student leant so much sideways in stances it was easy to control balance by not letting them lean back
: )
I also assisted in seminars for clandestine ex LT group in Germany with 100's of students in a huge gym all doing the similar stuff ??!! They couldn't even reach the target to hit as they leaned away blocking at the same time ...

BPWT
06-21-2013, 02:42 PM
Touched a nerve have we ? : )

Yes. It's frustrating to witness someone who is themselves a teacher, act the way you do - insulting people like Leung Ting, a man who clearly was regarded by Yip Man. It is staggering that you think your opinion trumps the opinion of the teacher of your teacher's teacher.

If WSL were alive today, I'm sure he'd be very proud of you. The legacy of WSLVT in the hands of people like you and Graham. Funnily, students of Gary Lam and David Peterson have always been open minded and polite - a pleasure to talk and debate with (online or off). I guess bad apples turn up in all lineages :(


I have had several LT students

Really? You've had personal students of Leung Ting attending your classes? People that studied with the man? They flew in from Hong Kong, just to learn from you? Wow. You must be something very special.


...one asked me to kick her in the groin so she could show me how the LT school taught her to pinch her knees as a block of my kick ... She then waddled forwards asking me to kick her , I declined ; ) but to this day share the experience.

It's nice that you think it's cool to share a story aimed to, what, demean a female student? But I'm really not sure what to make of this story. She moved closer because you weren't in kicking range? You failed to take up the challenge? You just made up the story? Not sure why you think her shuffling toward you (if the story is true) is indicative of Leung Ting's approach to fighting.

A better story would have been her kicking you in the nuts. You could have blocked it with your hip alignment? :rolleyes:


I also assisted in seminars for clandestine ex LT group in Germany with 100's of students in a huge gym all doing the similar stuff ??!! They couldn't even reach the target to hit as they leaned away blocking at the same time ...

Sigh. In Germany, right? So these were Leung Ting students who flew in from where - Hong Kong or Hungary? Or were these ex- Keith Kernspecht students from Germany? You do know that what you see in Germany is not what Leung Ting teaches, right? It is what KK has turned the system into - his own ideas, interpretations, direction.

Changes which started as early as the 1980's. But you're aware of that, of course: the changes in the 80's, the early and mid 90s and into the next decade around 2004 that occurred in the EWTO. They continue to this day - KK's choice to make.

You know the differences because you've met and trained with Leung Ting personally, or with Maday Norbert in Hungary, yes? So you have direct experience with these two people?

I have yet to see LT students miss targets because they were leaning back and 'blocking'. I don't think I've been taught to 'block' in a Wing Tsun class. Or are you meaning intercept, disperse, shear? Is that what you mean when you say block?

I myself have missed targets when sparring - if an opponent moved or retreated faster than I moved or advanced - but that's kinda the nature of things. Or does your system somehow provide you with a means of never missing?

Wayfaring
06-21-2013, 02:49 PM
Yes. It's frustrating to witness someone who is themselves a teacher, act the way you do - insulting people like Leung Ting, a man who clearly was regarded by Yip Man. It is staggering that you think your opinion trumps the opinion of the teacher of your teacher's teacher.


You know I'm not butting in you guys debate or anything, but from a community perspective Leung Ting gets a lot of flack for self-promoting himself to "Master of Almightiness". That foolishness had absolutely nothing to do with Yip Man.

JPinAZ
06-21-2013, 02:53 PM
oh, why not :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKqv9XormKM

BPWT
06-21-2013, 03:06 PM
You know I'm not butting in you guys debate or anything, but from a community perspective Leung Ting gets a lot of flack for self-promoting himself to "Master of Almightiness". That foolishness had absolutely nothing to do with Yip Man.

For sure! Leung Ting catches flak for many things. His choice to name his practitioner ranks the way he does certainly sounds odd - especially in English. I don't think I have ever felt offended by someone laughing at these names. Go for it!

But this means that he is lacking in skill? It means he didn't have Yip Man's respect? (he clearly did) It means that the core of Leung Ting's system (which has differences and similarities to WSL's system) is automatically 'ludicrous' as one PB student on this forum puts it?

You don't think it is childish for Kevin (or Graham for that matter), as teachers themselves, to insult a student of Yip Man? Especially when the insults are based on poor knowledge and a complete lack of personal contact?

It is trolling, plain and simple. A nice martial family. :rolleyes:

k gledhill
06-21-2013, 03:45 PM
BPWT you can argue all you like, it is a little late...

http://youtu.be/BO5JxAI3CDw

http://youtu.be/TK8KS_Dzsy0

BPWT
06-21-2013, 03:55 PM
Thanks, Kevin. You failed to answer a single question - which of course is typical for someone trolling. Well done!

Graham also made the claim he had met in Germany 'Leung Ting' students who studied directly under Leung Ting, who were now studying with PB. He said he'd provide some names as I was interested to ask them their opinions. I waited for Graham to come back from his PB seminar.

He too failed. He met some KK guys from Munich though, LOL :rolleyes:

Two trolls under the bridge.

BPWT
06-21-2013, 04:01 PM
Oddly, I remember you studied under Viktor Kan back in the day. You thought he was the golden goose. Then you met PB and this changed your opinion. Sadly, it didn't change your attitude. Now you think PB is providing you with golden eggs, and everything else is plain old free range.

I think David Peterson once wrote that Wong Shun Leung was "an amazing human being, formidable, charismatic, and yet disarmingly humble. Free from the curse of ego..."

There might be a lesson in there for you.

Grumblegeezer
06-21-2013, 08:58 PM
For sure! Leung Ting catches flak for many things. ....But this means that he is lacking in skill?

This is the paradox. Leung Ting has brought a lot of flak on himself, and can match anybody on this forum when it comes to trash-talk directed at his rivals.

Yet he had some top notch skills. It's a shame that his antics over the years have clouded that fact. And, perhaps Kevin is right. Maybe he has met LT students who didn't get those skills down. Honestly, very few of LT's students did get it right. LT, especially in his later years, got very stingy with his teaching.

But this is old news guys. And it doesn't have anything to do with the OP.

BPWT
06-22-2013, 02:16 AM
This is the paradox. Leung Ting has brought a lot of flak on himself, and can match anybody on this forum when it comes to trash-talk directed at his rivals.

Well, indeed. But should we aim to replicate this personality trait? :) Besides, I see this as much more the product of a Hong Kong environment. MA's in HK trash talk from dusk to dawn, and no one ever really takes it seriously. That said, some of the posters on this forum bandy about insults based on vapor and backward logic.


Yet he had some top notch skills. It's a shame that his antics over the years have clouded that fact.

Personally, I think it only clouds things if people actually want it to. I study Wing Tsun for the Wing Tsun, and in that LT is very, very skilled. :)


And, perhaps Kevin is right. Maybe he has met LT students who didn't get those skills down.

Perhaps, he has. And perhaps Graham has too. Yet all I see is people critiquing 'Leung Ting' Wing Tsun, when they have really only ever met people from KK. Ask them to name a direct LT student they met in Germany with PB, and they go very quiet.


Honestly, very few of LT's students did get it right. LT, especially in his later years, got very stingy with his teaching.

I would agree with this in part. In Western Europe the cards were badly stacked from the start. In America the foundation was good - but the US got neglected very early on and then got dealt a hand from Europe - which didn't help matters. The best people, as a result, now operate independently.

So for the most part, if people talk about Wing Tsun from Leung Ting, as Leung Ting teaches it, there are very few places they can see this. More often than not, they are talking about WT from KK, and have no idea how different the two are. Over the years in Hungary, LT has been ever more open in his teaching.

But maybe I'm just too grumpy these days and it shows in my posts. I'm on a mission to get down to 7% body fat - and the gym work and diet is... tough. :) Talking of which, I'm off to the gym for squats and dead-lifts... urghhh.....

tc101
06-22-2013, 04:31 AM
Touched a nerve have we ? : )


Not with me I am not from the Leung lineage I just think it is poor form to call names and says more about you then it does about your target. The other thing is it suggests that you believe yourself somehow superior and like I said there are some Leung people who may wipe the floor of both you and Bayer. Playing tough guy on the Internet does not impress anyone.




I have had several LT students, one asked me to kick her in the groin so she could show me how the LT school taught her to pinch her knees as a block of my kick ... She then waddled forwards asking me to kick her , I declined ; ) but to this day share the experience.
Another LT student leant so much sideways in stances it was easy to control balance by not letting them lean back
: )
I also assisted in seminars for clandestine ex LT group in Germany with 100's of students in a huge gym all doing the similar stuff ??!! They couldn't even reach the target to hit as they leaned away blocking at the same time ...

Just because you have some experiences with some low level people does not mean everyone associated is at the same level. I have only had very limited exposure to people that trained LT wing chun but that included one had a pretty impressive full contact record.

GlennR
06-22-2013, 04:42 AM
So what do you think will work in an actual fight from SLT then peeps? That question is open to everyone.

This should be good.

In the TST style i do stepping, turning and kicking is introduced before CK, so theres no problem utilising SLT with the above. And remember, TST is the king of SLT ;)
They also did a hand drill called 4 corner defense and for basic self defense it worked quite well.

The mainland style i did did a ton of stepping, turning and kicking before CK ,we were even better prepared in that regards.

So sure, you can certainly become sound with SLT and the rest i mentioned

KPM
06-22-2013, 04:48 AM
So what do you think will work in an actual fight from SLT then peeps? That question is open to everyone.

This should be good.

Uhhh....are you going to be using Tan Sau? Straight punch? Bong Sau? Pak Sau? Gan Sau? Centerline Structure? Etc? These are all from the SLT. How can you call what you do Wing Chun WITHOUT the SLT? It holds the fundamentals for the system. Sure you can learn all of these things from drilling, but the SLT is solo training for proper placement and structure of each. Can you get away with ONLY doing the SLT? No! But I don't think that is what the original poster was asking. I took his question to mean if one had trained at SLT level but had not yet learned the CK form and advanced to that level, would he have some practical skills. Since SLT level is going to teach him basic Wing Chun techniques and structure, my answer is "yes"! Maybe I am wrong and the original poster meant he only practiced the form and nothing else, but I doubt it. I think we are creating an argument here that doesn't really exist.

KPM
06-22-2013, 04:53 AM
Someone wrote that ( I paraphrase ) SLT plus footwork can be effective even if u dont learn CK or BJ. What does that mean? Chum kiu and biu gee contain the footwork. What footwork would one be learning if not chum kiu or biu gee? So to me the answer is no. Its not VT without CK or BG. Maybe u would be learning to fight but it would be a wholly different style from VT.

I guess it depends on what is considered SLT level in your school. I learned basic footwork as part of SLT level before ever starting on the CK form. Learning SLT for technique and structure, drilling and Chi Sau for application of basic techniques, basic footwork to make drilling a bit more realistic and learn more realistic applications, and only then the CK form itself. The point of the CK form is not footwork. The point is angling and capturing the center. I was taught you need to know the basic footwork before beginning to focus on those things. Your mileage may vary!

KPM
06-22-2013, 05:00 AM
By forms I am assuming u meant just SLT plus footwork drills. SLT plus footwork may be some martial art but it most assuredly is not Yip Man Wing Chun.

Over the years I have learned that there are many variations on what is consider "Yip Man Wing Chun." His students went on to teach and every one of them did things a little differently. I'm sure Yip Man himself didn't teach and organize things exactly like his own teachers, and probably didn't teach and organize things the same way at the beginning of each teaching career compared to the final years of his teaching career. So it is rather silly for people to be making such definitive statements about was IS and IS NOT "Yip Man" Wing Chun. The "real", "genuine" "Yip Man Wing Chun" died with Yip Man. Everyone moves a bit differently, thinks a bit differently, remembers their own instruction a bit differently and therefore organizes their material a bit differently.

k gledhill
06-22-2013, 05:08 AM
No wu sao ; ) classic LT , this may have led him to leeeaaannn. ; )
http://youtu.be/XuCEX5Zio5M

k gledhill
06-22-2013, 05:24 AM
Over the years I have learned that there are many variations on what is consider "Yip Man Wing Chun." His students went on to teach and every one of them did things a little differently. I'm sure Yip Man himself didn't teach and organize things exactly like his own teachers, and probably didn't teach and organize things the same way at the beginning of each teaching career compared to the final years of his teaching career. So it is rather silly for people to be making such definitive statements about was IS and IS NOT "Yip Man" Wing Chun. The "real", "genuine" "Yip Man Wing Chun" died with Yip Man. Everyone moves a bit differently, thinks a bit differently, remembers their own instruction a bit differently and therefore organizes their material a bit differently.

That's called subjective confusion. VT WT etc... Has a centerline arms are placed in the same areas called the same things BUT then it gets ambiguous. Many make the error of assigning SLT with all manner of applications before CK ( aka movement and angling ) are developed with chi sao exchanges. If you are misled early on in your training to avoid force by leaning onto one foot as you stay in the same spot, someone who understands VT will expose this error easily.
Slt teaches chu ying and jiu ying ideas, Chasing while facing or striking without turning the shoulders. To make yourself functional for fighting you need to add chum kil the power and mobility factor, along with unity of hand positions, ie bong AND wu sao AND hip torque AND chasing/facing/angling to fight while balanced ,in or out of contact.
Along with tactics that come from knives. Many dont learn knives or their relationship to bare hands and learn a kamikazee lead leg chain punch blast that a 9 yr old haymaker could end.

BPWT
06-22-2013, 05:50 AM
No wu sao ; ) classic LT , this may have led him to leeeaaannn. ; ) http://youtu.be/XuCEX5Zio5M

And if I found video footage of that fight where WSL was stretchered away from a fight when winded by a kick to his stomach from a falling opponent... that would prove something to you, Kevin? Would you abandon your method based on such an example? Would that video be 'classic WSL' in your eyes? Would you say this 'led him to faaaaalllling over.'


That's called subjective confusion...


Many make the error of...


If you are misled early on...


Many dont learn knives or their relationship to bare hands and ...

This rhetoric in your posts sounds almost evangelical. True believer. Until the next revelation?

k gledhill
06-22-2013, 05:54 AM
Not with me I am not from the Leung lineage I just think it is poor form to call names and says more about you then it does about your target. The other thing is it suggests that you believe yourself somehow superior and like I said there are some Leung people who may wipe the floor of both you and Bayer. Playing tough guy on the Internet does not impress anyone.




Just because you have some experiences with some low level people does not mean everyone associated is at the same level. I have only had very limited exposure to people that trained LT wing chun but that included one had a pretty impressive full contact record.

So if I bull**** you and everyone else about my opinions and play nice you will approve ?

Low level or high level ideas like waddling back and forth waiting to catch a kick with your basic stance leave a clear impression.
Using leaning away from ones own ability to generate power for evasive movement ? Boxers lean all over the place and don't need to make arm contact. I would suggest the same to a " leaner " , dont leave a path to your balance by making arm contact when leaning. It's very easy to unbalance an individual unless they are the "paper fist. "
You will also notice LT uses complete fools with signs saying " I am wrong " as opponents or other ideas in his videos, youtubes to show his ideas.

BPWT
06-22-2013, 06:02 AM
So if I bull**** you and everyone else about my opinions and play nice you will approve ?

No need to bull**** - but no need to act like an evangelical touch by the Lord, and then mix it in with schoolboy insults about people you have never actually met and trained with.

But I guess this is how you get your kicks.

k gledhill
06-22-2013, 06:05 AM
And if I found video footage of that fight where WSL was stretchered away from a fight when winded by a kick to his stomach from a falling opponent... that would prove something to you, Kevin? Would you abandon your method based on such an example? Would that video be 'classic WSL' in your eyes? Would you say this 'led him to faaaaalllling over.'









This rhetoric in your posts sounds almost evangelical. True believer. Until the next revelation?

VT is abstract whatever your name is , it's easy to get third hand ideas and further the confusion by just getting deeper into a hole of delusion.
How did LT court case end up for being accused of assaulting his pregnant mistress ?
I saw some artists sketches of him, they don't allow cameras in court.

Graham H
06-22-2013, 06:05 AM
Footwork in my opinion includes stepping and using body mechanics to infuse the techniques with power.

Thanks for clearing that up.

k gledhill
06-22-2013, 06:06 AM
No need to bull**** - but no need to act like an evangelical touch by the Lord, and then mix it in with schoolboy insults about people you have never actually met and trained with.

But I guess this is how you get your kicks.

It's a forum, lighten up. I do meet students face to face and laugh about this forum.

BPWT
06-22-2013, 06:13 AM
How did LT court case end up for being accused of assaulting his pregnant mistress ? I saw some artists sketches of him, they don't allow cameras in court.

Leung Ting was acquitted without charge - meaning he was cleared of charges made against him. Independent doctor reports showed that the injuries the young woman had were not consistent with being beaten (as she claimed) but were consistent with Leung Ting's testimony that stated she attempted to jump from a window and he grabbed her and pulled her back in - her falling hard to the floor in doing so. Leung Ting could have pressed charges against the women, following a false accusation - but I believe he simply asked the court to consider helping the woman gain treatment for mental issues.

But I don't understand you. This story has what exactly to do with Leung Ting's Wing Tsun? Or you mean you were looking for a photograph of Leung Ting from around the time of the case? :confused:

Graham H
06-22-2013, 06:17 AM
@BPWT

You have mentioned my name in nearly all your posts. I can't be bothered to respond to any of your nonsense BUT...........LT was reagrded by Yip Man? lolololololololololol

Graham H
06-22-2013, 06:23 AM
In the TST style i do stepping, turning and kicking is introduced before CK, so theres no problem utilising SLT with the above. And remember, TST is the king of SLT ;)
They also did a hand drill called 4 corner defense and for basic self defense it worked quite well.

The mainland style i did did a ton of stepping, turning and kicking before CK ,we were even better prepared in that regards.

So sure, you can certainly become sound with SLT and the rest i mentioned

Ok Glenn. I suppose you can do what ever you want.

Graham H
06-22-2013, 06:32 AM
Uhhh....are you going to be using Tan Sau?

Yes I use Tan Sau in SLT for training the punch. Not for punching or blocking things.


Straight punch?

Ok I guess you could use the punch as it is in SLT but I prefer to use it with a pivot and step. The punching in SLT is for training the mechanics. If you want to stand in from of an aggressive attacker and try and punch him whilst stood in YGKYM that's up to you mate! :)


Bong Sau?

Bong Sau in SLT does not work. It needs the correct roatation speed and the pivot and/or step for it to work properly. It also needs a punch with it (Kwan Sau)


Pak Sau?

You would use a pak sau like it is trained in SLT on an opponent would you? :confused:



Gan Sau?

The above answer applies


Centerline Structure?

WTF does that mean?:confused:


How can you call what you do Wing Chun WITHOUT the SLT?

You can't but SLT is for training not fighting



It holds the fundamentals for the system.

Yes true but many things cannot function correctly until we add the step/pivot and strategy from CK


Sure you can learn all of these things from drilling, but the SLT is solo training for proper placement and structure of each.

Agree



Can you get away with ONLY doing the SLT? No!

Agree


But I don't think that is what the original poster was asking.

It was


I took his question to mean if one had trained at SLT level but had not yet learned the CK form and advanced to that level, would he have some practical skills. Since SLT level is going to teach him basic Wing Chun techniques and structure, my answer is "yes"! Maybe I am wrong and the original poster meant he only practiced the form and nothing else, but I doubt it. I think we are creating an argument here that doesn't really exist

Are we?:confused:

tc101
06-22-2013, 06:42 AM
Ok I guess you could use the punch as it is in SLT but I prefer to use it with a pivot and step. The punching in SLT is for training the mechanics. If you want to stand in from of an aggressive attacker and try and punch him whilst stood in YGKYM that's up to you mate! :)


You do realize don't you that the SLT is a form and I emphasize form it is not application. None of the forms are application that is why they are called forms. You use things from the forms in application.



Bong Sau in SLT does not work. It needs the correct roatation speed and the pivot and/or step for it to work properly. It also needs a punch with it (Kwan Sau)

You would use a pak sau like it is trained in SLT on an opponent would you? :confused:


You can't but SLT is for training not fighting


You are not the only one who is confused since your views I find completely confusing. All the forms are for training not for application. The movements in each form is there to reinforce the overall concept of that form. How you use a particular movement will depend on the situation. Instead of saying such and such won't work why don't you say it won't work for you as there are others who do not have your difficulty.

Graham H
06-22-2013, 06:43 AM
Here is the "Grandmaster Clown" Leng Ting on our very own BBC TV

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TcJMZpWqyA

Please watch it all. It's fooking hilarious.

I like sticking my fingers in fans Leung Ting you clown! Just not those sorts! lol

BPWT? The fact that you worship that guy says a lot :D:D:D

Graham H
06-22-2013, 06:47 AM
You do realize don't you that the SLT is a form and I emphasize form it is not application. None of the forms are application that is why they are called forms. You use things from the forms in application.

No I don't relaize. What were we on about again? :confused::)




You are not the only one who is confused since your views I find completely confusing. All the forms are for training not for application. The movements in each form is there to reinforce the overall concept of that form. How you use a particular movement will depend on the situation. Instead of saying such and such won't work why don't you say it won't work for you as there are others who do not have your difficulty.

Yes I think I'm as confused as your confusing me as well. :confused:

Graham H
06-22-2013, 06:50 AM
What does tc101 mean anyway? Tai Chi 101? That would figure. Or is total c**t101? :D:D:D

Oh whoops! There is the name calling again that I hide behind. Sorry BPWT :D

guy b.
06-22-2013, 07:21 AM
How can SNT be any use if you don't have the rest of the system? All it makes you do is stand in a funny way and punch ineffectively. You would be better resorting to natural skills in my opinion. You need to whole thing to make it work in a coherent way.

BPWT
06-22-2013, 07:34 AM
@BPWT

You have mentioned my name in nearly all your posts. I can't be bothered to respond to any of your nonsense BUT...........LT was reagrded by Yip Man? lolololololololololol

You are constantly name-calling, so of course I mention you. :rolleyes: That's why you do it - to get a rise... because you have the mental age of a teenager (see, we can all do it).

Leung Ting and Yip Man: from earlier...

Yip Man accepted him as closed door student. Yip Man attended his school openings and their events. He attended his wedding. In 1970 Yip Man appointed Leung Ting as a chief instructor of the VTAA. Clearly, Yip Man was not lacking regard for Leung Ting.

The above is the actions/conduct of a man who had no regard for Leung Ting? Really? You actually think that? You have a weird notion of people and relationships (single by any chance?) LOL

Like I said, you are really a queer guy, Graham. All over the place.

You don't respond to certain things posted because you can't. You have no experience with the people you are talking about.

But go on... I'm still waiting for all those names from you :rolleyes: A long wait coming, I think.

As for me 'worshipping' LT, I have no idea what you mean. I don't worship anyone. But this is strange to hear coming from you - in light of your relationship with PB.

How would you view that video of WSL being stretchered out of the ring? Would it mean anything to you?

LoneTiger108
06-22-2013, 07:39 AM
I just knew this thread would quickly disintegrate into silly name calling by the PB Kids on the Block! Even after people explain how they do things very clearly during their SLT practice.

Perhaps you dudes need to learn to read a little Chinese, so you can get your stories straight for once, although BPWT has done that for you, and perhaps then you may understand that you haven't learnt from WSL, or Ip Man, so to even comment on what he thought of his direct students is pure fantasy.

You bring the whole European division in Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun into a time that it has no place imho...

LoneTiger108
06-22-2013, 07:44 AM
How can SNT be any use if you don't have the rest of the system? All it makes you do is stand in a funny way and punch ineffectively. You would be better resorting to natural skills in my opinion. You need to whole thing to make it work in a coherent way.

Again... I repeat myself... OH DEAR! :o

Graham H
06-22-2013, 07:46 AM
You are constantly name-calling, so of course I mention you. :rolleyes:

Flattery I like lol


Leung Ting and Yip Man: from earlier...

Yip Man accepted him as closed door student. Yip Man attended his school openings and their events. He attended his wedding. In 1970 Yip Man appointed Leung Ting as a chief instructor of the VTAA. Clearly, Yip Man was not lacking regard for Leung Ting.

Yeah yeah! All made up BS. Like the story about the picture of him and Yip Man blah blah blah. If Leung Ting is a good represention of Yip Man then I would be shocked. Wong Shun Leung? Yes! Yip Bo Ching? Yes! Leung Ting? No effing way.


The above is the actions/conduct of a man who had no regard for Leung Ting? Really? You actually think that? You have a weird notion of people and relationships (single by any chance?) LOL

I'm not single. I love you


Like I said, you are really a queer guy, Graham. All over the place.

Yeah yeah whatever mate. Your mind games are rubbish.


You don't respond to certain things posted because you can't. You have no experience with the people you are talking about :rolleyes:

No but I take the comments of people that have had experience of LT as factual and not made up.


But go on... I'm still waiting for all those names from you :rolleyes: A long wait coming, I think.

I don't have any names for you. Stop trying to play that card. I didn't ask. It would have been embarrasing. Even if they all came from KK would it matter? Anybody who's anybody outside of the church of LT knows he's a muppet. Good business man though. I'll give him that. There is a rumour that KK is worth 80 million Euro. If that is true then LT would be the richest clown in the world. More famous than Krusty the Clown me thinks.


As for me 'worshipping' LT, I have no idea what you mean. I don't worship anyone. But this is strange to hear coming from you - in light of your relationship with PB.

PB teaches me Ving Tsun as taught to him by WSL who was Yip Man's assistant and responsible for teaching a lot of people. I'm happy with that connenction but I don't want to sleep with him :D


How would you view that video of WSL being stretchered out of the ring? Would it mean anything to you?

Yes I would say he was unlucky on that day. Better luck next time. He's not Superman you know! What is important is his thinking on Ving Tsun. He is labelled as a great man. Its a shame I never met him.

Graham H
06-22-2013, 07:47 AM
I just knew this thread would quickly disintegrate into silly name calling by the PB Kids on the Block! Even after people explain how they do things very clearly during their SLT practice.

Perhaps you dudes need to learn to read a little Chinese, so you can get your stories straight for once, although BPWT has done that for you, and perhaps then you may understand that you haven't learnt from WSL, or Ip Man, so to even comment on what he thought of his direct students is pure fantasy.

You bring the whole European division in Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun into a time that it has no place imho...

Talking of weird people.....how's it going Spence? :D

Graham H
06-22-2013, 07:52 AM
How can SNT be any use if you don't have the rest of the system? All it makes you do is stand in a funny way and punch ineffectively. You would be better resorting to natural skills in my opinion. You need to whole thing to make it work in a coherent way.

Perfect! ;)

guy b.
06-22-2013, 08:12 AM
Again... I repeat myself... OH DEAR! :o

You disagree. Why?

Vajramusti
06-22-2013, 08:55 AM
How can SNT be any use if you don't have the rest of the system? All it makes you do is stand in a funny way and punch ineffectively. You would be better resorting to natural skills in my opinion. You need to whole thing to make it work in a coherent way.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You obviously have a very limited understanding of sil lim tao-it's details and it's functions. But you are not alone.


Onward through the fog.

guy b.
06-22-2013, 08:56 AM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You obviously have a very limited understanding of sil lim tao-it's details and it's functions. But you are not alone.


Onward through the fog.

Explain why. I don't mind a conversation about it. How does it stand alone without the rest of the system?

KungFubar
06-22-2013, 09:23 AM
with all the discussion about this leung ting guy I looked on youtube for insight, what is this video saying? I cant tell if it is for Leung Ting or against.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtV9NPtKcNI

guy b.
06-22-2013, 10:13 AM
with all the discussion about this leung ting guy I looked on youtube for insight, what is this video saying? I cant tell if it is for Leung Ting or against.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtV9NPtKcNI

If that is for I would hate to see against

Ali. R
06-22-2013, 10:31 AM
Explain why?

Everything to you is a challenge rather than exploring good options of understanding with an open mind, but you will fight for you point which is nothing wrong with that.

And most of that will happen, because you don't know who he is (not a clue). But if you really knew you wouldn't have to ask that question. I'm not saying that you have to treat him like a 'King', just learn who he is; but you should always respect him.


Explain why. I don't mind a conversation about it. How does it stand alone without the rest of the system?

He knows, because he is the 'Elder' (real deal). It's hard to talk to you because he knows that you'll rather take another direction before using and going with an open mind. Who knows he may reply but he really doesn't have to.


You obviously have a very limited understanding of sil lim tao-it's details and it's functions. But you are not alone.

Onward through the fog.

He’s telling you the truth, but you haven't given him any reason to help you and that goes for a lot of people here. Sometimes situations can become very 'pig headed' on both sides.

Now with that said, I would have to agree with his statement and not because it's him, but he's right; you're clueless.


Take care,

BPWT
06-22-2013, 10:33 AM
with all the discussion about this leung ting guy I looked on youtube for insight, what is this video saying? I cant tell if it is for Leung Ting or against.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtV9NPtKcNI

There is a particular photo of Leung Ting that looks like it has been manipulated. That Leung Ting's head has been placed onto someone else's.

Leung Ting claims the manipulation was done by a journalist and photographer because he gave interviews to two new Kung Fu magazines that had started up in HK and were taking sales and readership away from the one this image appeared in.

The truth? Who can say. But there are a few things that really don't make sense, and are in defense of Leung Ting.

1. This all happened at time before photoshop. Splicing images meant exactly that - taking and manipulating 35mm film. Not easy to do. And surely something that would have required an expert hand (and Leung Ting is no photographer :)) It would also mean he would have needed to have the original 35mm film of the 'other guy'. How would he have this?

2. There are loads of photos of LT with Yip Man. No one claims they are all fake - so why fake one? There are pics of Yip Man teaching LT privately, at his schools, at Wing Tsun events organized by Leung Ting, at Leung Ting's wedding, etc. If you own 5 Ferraris, why buy a 6th one that is fake.

But Leung Ting has always been controversial, even back in the early days in HK. He was accepted as a student of Yip Man after YM had retired. This in itself caused some resentment, but more so when you consider it was generation-jumping. Learning from his teacher's teacher, without first asking his original teacher.

LT also started teaching when he was quite young (as many did), but LT organized classes in University - and this brought him approx 300 students (paying students), within just a few short months. With his other classes it meant he had many, many students. Often more students than other Wing Chun/Ving Tsun guys had - despite LT being junior to those other teachers. This caused a little resentment.

As a result of his teaching, he devised a curriculum, something most teachers weren't doing. The media liked him as he was young and successful - he liked the media and the exposure. Others resented it.

In one particular interview he said he was the grandmaster of Wing Tsun. Meaning his organization. A magazine printed this using the generic spelling of the system, meaning it read like LT was saying he was THE Grandmaster. People in HK got all stressed by it, but LT quickly acknowledged the journalist's error. Still, the WC/VT guys felt the need to have a meeting and publicly set things straight.

And all of this was before incidents like William Cheung claiming he was taught something special and would accept all challenges etc, which led to some heated words between people.

Most of the problems can be summed up as people 'getting their knickers in a twist', usually over nothing.

KungFubar
06-22-2013, 11:30 AM
If that is for I would hate to see against

it was confusing to me because she was showing all these photos with YM, it looked like she was proving he was YP right hand man, but the tone was dark and then the text was in german and my german is quite rusty.

KPM
06-22-2013, 11:33 AM
Again... I repeat myself... OH DEAR! :o

Oh Dear is right! This thread is not even worth the effort. People like to argue just for the sake of arguing. That gets you nowhere.

Vajramusti
06-22-2013, 11:36 AM
Explain why. I don't mind a conversation about it. How does it stand alone without the rest of the system?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to know who I am conversing with...

KPM
06-22-2013, 11:39 AM
Explain why. I don't mind a conversation about it. How does it stand alone without the rest of the system?

Not to speak for Joy, but have you even been reading this thread? Did I not explain how SLT level (not just the form alone) provides plenty of practical information prior to learning CK for some people's Wing Chun curriculum? For some people's version of Wing Chun, footwork is learned prior to CK. SLT + drilling application and Chi Sau + footwork = practical application. CK comes next in teaching you how to capture and move the centerline if a direct approach is not working.

KungFubar
06-22-2013, 11:46 AM
...SLT + drilling application and Chi Sau + footwork = practical application. ...direct approach

Thanks KPM and others, and to everyone, I didn't mean to start a volatile thread, i had no idea this would be so emotionally charged, but by all means .. carry on Im learning a lot. now then, where's that popcorn eating emoticon

Vajramusti
06-22-2013, 11:49 AM
Not to speak for Joy, but have you even been reading this thread? Did I not explain how SLT level (not just the form alone) provides plenty of practical information prior to learning CK for some people's Wing Chun curriculum? For some people's version of Wing Chun, footwork is learned prior to CK. SLT + drilling application and Chi Sau + footwork = practical application. CK comes next in teaching you how to capture and move the centerline if a direct approach is not working.
-----------------------------------------------------

Good statement Keith.
Unfortunately guy b seems to be more interested in continuing useless thread(s)

guy b.
06-22-2013, 12:33 PM
He’s telling you the truth, but you haven't given him any reason to help you and that goes for a lot of people here. Sometimes situations can become very 'pig headed' on both sides.

Now with that said, I would have to agree with his statement and not because it's him, but he's right; you're clueless.


Take care,


I'm happy to listen to any reasoned argument. I'm not happy to take anyone's word for it. Feel free to enlighten me about the combat effectiveness of someone trained in SNT and nothing else.

guy b.
06-22-2013, 12:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to know who I am conversing with...

Please see here:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65999&page=6

guy b.
06-22-2013, 12:49 PM
Not to speak for Joy, but have you even been reading this thread? Did I not explain how SLT level (not just the form alone) provides plenty of practical information prior to learning CK for some people's Wing Chun curriculum?

SNT level? This should take only a few lessons. It isn't rocket science


For some people's version of Wing Chun, footwork is learned prior to CK. SLT + drilling application and Chi Sau + footwork = practical application. CK comes next in teaching you how to capture and move the centerline if a direct approach is not working.

How on earth would you put any power or strategy into what you learn in SNT without learning anything else? Wing chun is not "application" inn response to stimulus. That is karate. If you learned footwork (all footwork?) then you would still be several pence short of the pound that is CK, and functioning with just CK, no dummy, no pole, no knives, no BJ makes for an extremely limited fighter. You would still be better off throwing wild haymakers or getting into a bar style grapple I think than trying to make do with that.

Wing chun is supposed to be a fast system to learn. The bare bones of it takes no time at all. It is getting good that takes practice. I don't understand people that are left at SNT level. What are they teaching you FFS?

KungFubar
06-22-2013, 12:56 PM
Wing chun is supposed to be a fast system to learn. The bare bones of it takes no time at all. It is getting good that takes practice.

how long to learn, and how long to get to a point where its useful if the student is dedicated.

KPM
06-22-2013, 01:24 PM
SNT level? This should take only a few lessons. It isn't rocket science



How on earth would you put any power or strategy into what you learn in SNT without learning anything else? Wing chun is not "application" inn response to stimulus. That is karate. If you learned footwork (all footwork?) then you would still be several pence short of the pound that is CK, and functioning with just CK, no dummy, no pole, no knives, no BJ makes for an extremely limited fighter. You would still be better off throwing wild haymakers or getting into a bar style grapple I think than trying to make do with that.

Wing chun is supposed to be a fast system to learn. The bare bones of it takes no time at all. It is getting good that takes practice. I don't understand people that are left at SNT level. What are they teaching you FFS?

Wow. Once again I must ask...are you even reading this thread? Paraphrasing a bit.....KungfuBar asked if there was practical knowledge to be gained from SLT level of training in Wing Chun if someone hadn't gone any further. Some said yes, some said no. I said yes and explained why. I didn't say this would make you the Ultimate Fighter and king of the world. I said it will have practical application. Any system that requires you to learn the ENTIRE system before you have any practical abilities would be a pretty poor system in my opinion. Your mileage may vary. ;-) Now if you are too dense to follow said progression of the conversation, then I am done wasting my time with you.

KPM
06-22-2013, 01:30 PM
how long to learn, and how long to get to a point where its useful if the student is dedicated.

That depends entirely upon the individual's physical talent and ability to learn. Some people pick up on things faster than others. It can also depend upon the teacher. Some may progress students faster through the curriculum than others. A student in one school may have some decent practical skills within 6 months or less, while someone elsewhere may take a little longer. But if you've been doing Wing Chun for a year and don't feel you have gained any practical skills, I'd look for another teacher! And if someone tells you you must complete the entire system before you will have any practical skills, again, I'd look for another teacher!

Vajramusti
06-22-2013, 01:32 PM
[QUOTE=guy b.;1235416]SNT level? This should take only a few lessons. It isn't rocket science
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who are you and who is your wing chun instructor?
Your ignorance regarding wing chun is massive.
I don't know why folks have encouraged your obvious trolling.

]

KPM
06-22-2013, 01:43 PM
Please see here:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65999&page=6

Joy:

Since guy b. wasn't respectful or polite enough to actually directly answer your question:

In terms of wing chun I did 7 years at Cliff Au Yeung's school in HK, then moved to PVT group with Jerry Yeung when they split. I am currently in the UK and a free agent

KungFubar
06-22-2013, 02:02 PM
.. Any system that requires you to learn the ENTIRE system before you have any practical abilities would be a pretty poor system in my opinion. .

this is what I was wondering basically.

guy b.
06-22-2013, 02:04 PM
Wow. Once again I must ask...are you even reading this thread? Paraphrasing a bit.....KungfuBar asked if there was practical knowledge to be gained from SLT level of training in Wing Chun if someone hadn't gone any further. Some said yes, some said no. I said yes and explained why. I didn't say this would make you the Ultimate Fighter and king of the world. I said it will have practical application.

You think I didn't read the thread because I didn't agree with you? Lol

Learning SNT would have zero practical application. In fact doing what is in that form would probably be a negative in terms of ability to fight. There is nothing of how to use any shape in SNT. Nothing of any body motion. The movements are not for practical application like a recipe book.


Any system that requires you to learn the ENTIRE system before you have any practical abilities would be a pretty poor system in my opinion. Your mileage may vary. ;-) Now if you are too dense to follow said progression of the conversation, then I am done wasting my time with you.

With wing chun you need to learn SNT, CK and dummy (and the relevant drills) before you have anything remotely useful. The good news is that this shouldn't take long to learn.

guy b.
06-22-2013, 02:05 PM
[QUOTE=guy b.;1235416]SNT level? This should take only a few lessons. It isn't rocket science
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Who are you and who is your wing chun instructor?
Your ignorance regarding wing chun is massive.
I don't know why folks have encouraged your obvious trolling.

]

I have posted my training history.

KPM
06-22-2013, 02:12 PM
With wing chun you need to learn SNT, CK and dummy (and the relevant drills) before you have anything remotely useful.

Not with my Wing Chun. But again, your mileage may vary. ;)

Grumblegeezer
06-22-2013, 02:18 PM
With wing chun you need to learn SNT, CK and dummy (and the relevant drills) before you have anything remotely useful. The good news is that this shouldn't take long to learn.

Sorry, but that's total rubbish.

With SNT for structure and position, plus basic two man drills with striking, stepping, turning, kicking and, of course some sparring, a solid student can gain practical fighting and self defense skills even before CK is taught.

Don't confuse useful knowledge with how many forms a person has collected.

guy b.
06-22-2013, 02:18 PM
With wing chun you need to learn SNT, CK and dummy (and the relevant drills) before you have anything remotely useful.

Not with my Wing Chun. But again, your mileage may vary. ;)

It sounds like your wing chun is a different martial art. This is ok, what you do is up to you.

KPM
06-22-2013, 02:33 PM
It sounds like your wing chun is a different martial art. This is ok, what you do is up to you.

It sounds like you need to get out more! :rolleyes:

guy b.
06-22-2013, 03:38 PM
Sorry, but that's total rubbish.

With SNT for structure and position, plus basic two man drills with striking, stepping, turning, kicking and, of course some sparring, a solid student can gain practical fighting and self defense skills even before CK is taught.

Don't confuse useful knowledge with how many forms a person has collected.

Are you stepping and turning as in CK? Then why not just do CK instead of isolated drills and exercises?

If you aren't doing what is in the forms then what are you doing?

A solid student can gain practical fighting skills before any wing chun is taught at all. Why bother? Just do boxing sparring or similar

GlennR
06-22-2013, 04:11 PM
You think I didn't read the thread because I didn't agree with you? Lol

Learning SNT would have zero practical application. In fact doing what is in that form would probably be a negative in terms of ability to fight. There is nothing of how to use any shape in SNT. Nothing of any body motion. The movements are not for practical application like a recipe book.


Firstly, glad to see you finally put your background up.

Youre just plain wrong in regards to this, buy purely from a lineage thing which you need to get your head around.

All the major WC branches have different interpretations of the forms and train accordingly/

TST does what you say cant be done in your above statements as an example, and yes, i have been well exposed to WSLVT via Barry Lees Oz school, so i have a fair measuring stick to go by.

FWIW, the hardest hitters (pound for pound(ive experienced in WC have been TST guys with little or no footwork


With wing chun you need to learn SNT, CK and dummy (and the relevant drills) before you have anything remotely useful. The good news is that this shouldn't take long to learn.


In what context? Self defense or sport combat?

KungFubar
06-22-2013, 04:43 PM
... The good news is that this shouldn't take long to learn.

how long for the dedicated before its useful?

tc101
06-22-2013, 04:45 PM
What does tc101 mean anyway? Tai Chi 101? That would figure. Or is total c**t101? :D:D:D

Oh whoops! There is the name calling again that I hide behind. Sorry BPWT :D

TC are the initials to my name and i served with the 101st.

tc101
06-22-2013, 04:57 PM
how long for the dedicated before its useful?

As I learned wing chun what you learned and practiced you could immediately use not at high level but you could use it as you learned it. My perspective is different than sLT is basic level it is dominate centerline level which is of course the most basic way but takes high skill to do. You need more than is referenced in the SLT form to do that as was pointed out you need footwork and some techniques that is not in the form. The forms are not meant in my perspective to be restrictive but expressive. The form expresses a concept but that concept is not limited to only those techniques in the form and will need more to fully express. To put it another way the form just gives you a little idea that you expand upon.

KungFubar
06-22-2013, 05:26 PM
As I learned wing chun what you learned and practiced you could immediately use not at high level but you could use it as you learned it. My perspective is different than sLT is basic level it is dominate centerline level which is of course the most basic way but takes high skill to do. You need more than is referenced in the SLT form to do that as was pointed out you need footwork and some techniques that is not in the form. The forms are not meant in my perspective to be restrictive but expressive. The form expresses a concept but that concept is not limited to only those techniques in the form and will need more to fully express. To put it another way the form just gives you a little idea that you expand upon.

nice insight thank you.

Vajramusti
06-22-2013, 05:56 PM
Guy's ex sifu is a young guy who leaned from Ip Chun. There are vast differences in how
people learn the sil lim tao. I don't do Ip Chun or Yeung wing chun.

A great problem in forum discussions is the pigeon holing and generalizations about quite different
forms of wing chun

When I learned the sil lim tao I developed pretty decent usage and understanding of how to DEVELOP each motion and many useful applications of the sil lim tao motions...for self defense.
Even in motion you are seldom far from the principles properly learned in ygkym.I could spar with power with what I learned.

Of course learning additional forms opened up and opens up new doors.

So in answering the original questioner(Kungfubar)- if you are taught slt well you can get started in defending yourself. With chum kiu well taught you get better. But the original question was- what if you only learned the slt.
The core principles of the motions are there in slt- proper balance, controlling one's motions in different directions, synthesis of external and internal factors, focus, targeting, distance, knowing your center of gravity at all times, coordinating lower body, upper body and hand structures, the dynamic geometry of the structures-lines circles,triangles, pyramids.'properly connecting all the bone joints

Sheesh- what a crazy thread... noise and much nonsense.

Hendrik
06-22-2013, 09:58 PM
Does SLT have any practical use without the other two if you never have a chance to learn any more?


Slt is the foundation core of Wck .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS7n7IPfb1s

EternalSpring
06-22-2013, 09:59 PM
All I know is the YM Moy Yat Line SNT worked for me when it was all I knew. Part of it is a "mindset imo." If you try to apply what you learn and really think about it and experiment with it, you could probably even use the macarena to fight.

EternalSpring
06-22-2013, 10:09 PM
Also, from the posts I've skimmed it seems that most agree that, Siu Nim Tao, while the name for a form, is also a "level." You dont just learn Chum Kiu the day after you finish SNT. And in most cases, knowing SNT doesn't even mean you're "doing it well." There are plenty of drills, even those that include footwork and elbows for this level as well. Does a person who knows the SNT form but not all the drills/etc necessary to train and strengthen the form really count as "knowing" SNT? If it did, then "knowing" something wouldn't necessarily be anything significant anyways.

trubblman
06-22-2013, 10:27 PM
I guess it depends on what is considered SLT level in your school. I learned basic footwork as part of SLT level before ever starting on the CK form. Learning SLT for technique and structure, drilling and Chi Sau for application of basic techniques, basic footwork to make drilling a bit more realistic and learn more realistic applications, and only then the CK form itself. The point of the CK form is not footwork. The point is angling and capturing the center. I was taught you need to know the basic footwork before beginning to focus on those things. Your mileage may vary!

Ah yes the Wing Chun footwork and drilling....I forgot about those #sarcasm Again keep in mind the original question: Does SLT have any practical use without the other two if you never have a chance to learn any more? My answer is only in the context. I do remember Bruce Lee starting out with SLT a smattering of CK and footwork and drills but then again he called his Jeet Kune Do

Graham H
06-23-2013, 12:53 AM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You obviously have a very limited understanding of sil lim tao-it's details and it's functions. But you are not alone.


Onward through the fog.

That's not true at all Joy! Your system has filled it up with stuff that's not meant to be there. How can you fight using SLT? People that think they can have no clue about anything. People think that they can start adding things to it and say it's ok to pivot, step and turn in SLT. Isn't that CK? :confused:

Firstly you are stood still. You can fight stood still can you? Both feet and knees are turned in. You have no support front or back so if you were attacked you would have to move somewhere. The stance is for exercising not fighting. In CK we learn to adopt the correct fighting posture not SLT? You are bascially training two rear legs positions in SLT. I guess you could waddle around like a big duck if you like! :D

The first section contains actions that are done at a very slow pace. You can fight in slow mo in Fong's Wing Chun can you? :s

In the second section we use two arms together. You use these actions to fight? Don't make me laugh. One great example is when somebody taught me to use double jut sau from SLT to break a choke hold. lmao. What about the rear double gum sau to grab your attackers balls during a bear hug, Sounds gay and that application is for ****sexuals.

In the third section the arms become more independent of each other but the actions cannot function correctly until we add the pivot and/or step. These actions in SLT are to lay foundations. They are to develop the basic mechanics of the Ving Tsun fighting stance and an introduction to the various arm actions contained within the system.

When people try to use the actions from SLT for fighting they start adding stuff in order to make them work then they say its ok to pivot and step before CK. Why even bother to stand still at all? Boxers don't stand still when they first go in the gym. Why should it be required in Wing Chun? Maybe its to manipulate chi around the body like some other Wing Chun freaks think. :D

The real reason why we stand still is to develop and become ucustomed to an unatural leg and foot position. If humans walked around with the feet and knees turned in we wouldn't need YGKYM. The reason for devoting so much time and effort to moving the arm in and out via tan sau, fook sau and wu sau is to develop the unatural punching mechanics for the Ving Tsun straight punch. It's as simple as that and the fact that Wing Chun is a pretty useless fighting system if in the wrong hands it means that Teachers and students all over the world are fooling themselves into thinking something is effective when it's not. They would be better off going to a good boxing club. Fortuneately there was a small proprotion of Yip Man's students that carried in the correct idea of Ving Tsun where most have them have destroyed the whole system and made a global laughing stock! FACT!

SLT is a precursor to CK. WSL said it perfectly when he said SLT is your ABC. CK makes words and Chi Sau makes sentences. Anybody that is trying to use your basic ABC's to fight is a complete fool.

GlennR
06-23-2013, 01:18 AM
That's not true at all Joy! Your system has filled it up with stuff that's not meant to be there. How can you fight using SLT? People that think they can have no clue about anything. People think that they can start adding things to it and say it's ok to pivot, step and turn in SLT. Isn't that CK? :confused:


So are you saying a WSL guy thats only trained SLT is no better equipped than when he first started training?


Firstly you are stood still. You can fight stood still can you? Both feet and knees are turned in. You have no support front or back so if you were attacked you would have to move somewhere. The stance is for exercising not fighting. In CK we learn to adopt the correct fighting posture not SLT? You are bascially training two rear legs positions in SLT. I guess you could waddle around like a big duck if you like! :D

Clever boy!


The first section contains actions that are done at a very slow pace. You can fight in slow mo in Fong's Wing Chun can you? :s


But CK is hardly done at full fighting speed..... your point is?


In the second section we use two arms together. You use these actions to fight? Don't make me laugh. One great example is when somebody taught me to use double jut sau from SLT to break a choke hold. lmao. What about the rear double gum sau to grab your attackers balls during a bear hug, Sounds gay and that application is for ****sexuals.

I assume you loved that! bwahahahahaah


In the third section the arms become more independent of each other but the actions cannot function correctly until we add the pivot and/or step. These actions in SLT are to lay foundations. They are to develop the basic mechanics of the Ving Tsun fighting stance and an introduction to the various arm actions contained within the system.

I disrespectfully disagree



The real reason why we stand still is to develop and become ucustomed to an unatural leg and foot position.

Id suggest its the whole posture... head to toe


If humans walked around with the feet and knees turned in we wouldn't need YGKYM. The reason for devoting so much time and effort to moving the arm in and out via tan sau, fook sau and wu sau is to develop the unatural punching mechanics for the Ving Tsun straight punch.

In conjunction with the stance training....


It's as simple as that and the fact that Wing Chun is a pretty useless fighting system if in the wrong hands it means that Teachers and students all over the world are fooling themselves into thinking something is effective when it's not. They would be better off going to a good boxing club.

Youre welcome at our club anytime G!


Fortuneately there was a small proprotion of Yip Man's students that carried in the correct idea of Ving Tsun where most have them have destroyed the whole system and made a global laughing stock! FACT!

God bless em!

tc101
06-23-2013, 04:52 AM
That's not true at all Joy! Your system has filled it up with stuff that's not meant to be there. How can you fight using SLT? People that think they can have no clue about anything. People think that they can start adding things to it and say it's ok to pivot, step and turn in SLT. Isn't that CK? :confused:


Your confusion arises because you think a movement is in a certain form so that makes it belong to or you learn it only from that form or when you learn that form. I do not know how you learned wing chun but the first thing I learned in wing chun was stationary punching then punching while stepping forward so as you see learning is not restricted to only those actions in the form you have learned. At SLT level you do not only use or are restricted to using the actions found in SLT that makes no sense. Instead your focus is on learning the concept of that form and how to carry that out.

The forms express a concept and SLT is about dominating the centerline. When you have the line and control it you do not need or want to shift or angle you want to stay on that line so the SLT represents that concept by not shifting or angling to a new line but dominating the line you have.



Firstly you are stood still. You can fight stood still can you? Both feet and knees are turned in. You have no support front or back so if you were attacked you would have to move somewhere. The stance is for exercising not fighting. In CK we learn to adopt the correct fighting posture not SLT? You are bascially training two rear legs positions in SLT. I guess you could waddle around like a big duck if you like! :D

The first section contains actions that are done at a very slow pace. You can fight in slow mo in Fong's Wing Chun can you? :s

In the second section we use two arms together. You use these actions to fight? Don't make me laugh. One great example is when somebody taught me to use double jut sau from SLT to break a choke hold. lmao. What about the rear double gum sau to grab your attackers balls during a bear hug, Sounds gay and that application is for ****sexuals.

In the third section the arms become more independent of each other but the actions cannot function correctly until we add the pivot and/or step. These actions in SLT are to lay foundations. They are to develop the basic mechanics of the Ving Tsun fighting stance and an introduction to the various arm actions contained within the system.

When people try to use the actions from SLT for fighting they start adding stuff in order to make them work then they say its ok to pivot and step before CK. Why even bother to stand still at all? Boxers don't stand still when they first go in the gym. Why should it be required in Wing Chun? Maybe its to manipulate chi around the body like some other Wing Chun freaks think. :D


You do not need to pivot or step if you control the centerline and doing so would move you out of a position of advantage. there are times in fighting when you are stationary but still dynamic. The movements or actions in all the forms are not meant to be applied or performed exactly like in the form. The forms do not mimic fighting and that is why they do not look like fighting.



The real reason why we stand still is to develop and become ucustomed to an unatural leg and foot position. If humans walked around with the feet and knees turned in we wouldn't need YGKYM. The reason for devoting so much time and effort to moving the arm in and out via tan sau, fook sau and wu sau is to develop the unatural punching mechanics for the Ving Tsun straight punch.


There is nothing unusual in either the arm or leg actions or positions in wing chun. It doesn't make sense to me to practice tan fook wu to develop the punch when I can just practice the punch.



It's as simple as that and the fact that Wing Chun is a pretty useless fighting system if in the wrong hands it means that Teachers and students all over the world are fooling themselves into thinking something is effective when it's not. They would be better off going to a good boxing club. Fortuneately there was a small proprotion of Yip Man's students that carried in the correct idea of Ving Tsun where most have them have destroyed the whole system and made a global laughing stock! FACT!


Then there are those pesky wing chun people with different ideas than yours who have fought successfully in full contact or k1 or mma. The laughing comes from when people make claims of superiority or think that only they have the right idea but with no evidence to back them up or when people who do not fight try to sound like they do or think eye jabs and groin kicks will save them. The globe is not laughing for instance at the Orr group.



SLT is a precursor to CK. WSL said it perfectly when he said SLT is your ABC. CK makes words and Chi Sau makes sentences. Anybody that is trying to use your basic ABC's to fight is a complete fool.

Yes yes the name calling anyone who does not agree with you is a fool. SLT is a precursor to CK because CK concept is changing and breaking the centerline. There is no need to change it if you dominate it. But if you can't control the line you are on then you break or change it. The abc word sentence example is not how I learned wing chun.

KPM
06-23-2013, 05:34 AM
Clearly there are two different mindsets at work in this thread. And that's OK. There is no reason to get nasty and dogmatic. As I pointed out before, there is no such thing as "carved in granite"...."Yip Man" Wing Chun. Different Yip Man students went on to teach and organize the material differently. Yip Man himself likely didn't teach and organize his material exactly the same way throughout his teaching career.

One mindset or approach may see any use of footwork to be CK level material. Therefore SLT is not practical because it is stationary....and if you start moving, it is no longer SLT, it is CK. That's OK.

Another mindset or approach sees CK as teaching concepts of capturing the centerline, which happens to use footwork. But the footwork itself is something taught as a intermediate stage of training between learning the SLT form and learning the CK form. Therefore they put footwork and practical applications with the material and concepts learned in the SLT form. That's OK too.

Just because someone's particular teacher uses one approach and not the other does not give you the right to dogmatically state that the other approach is wrong or not "real" Wing Chun. That's just silly and narrow-minded. There is no single "right" way to do Wing Chun. There are many variations. Heck....Pin Sun Wing Chun doesn't even have the SLT or CK forms!

Vajramusti
06-23-2013, 06:56 AM
[QUOTE=Graham H;1235503]That's not true at all Joy! Your system has filled it up with stuff that's not meant to be there. How can you fight using SLT? People that think they can have no clue about anything. People think that they can start adding things to it and say it's ok to pivot, step and turn in SLT. Isn't that CK? :confused:
-------------------------------------------------------
Graham
Apparently you had trouble reading or understanding my post.....perhaps because of your true believer dogmatism.
I never said that you pivot, step and turn in slt.

Developing the "song" ,limber but strong connections of joints, ligaments and tendons takes time.
No catechism prevents learning various drills, turns. shifts and chi sao with slt motions while developing for for chum kiu.All of the above gets you ready for putting them together via chum kiu. The muscles are not rigid in good slt. It takes time to develop relaxed musculature to assist
the coordination of the skeletal structure... a balanced relaxed, springy structure that can explode when needed.Acceleration from 0 to 100 and beyond.

You dont know what you are calling my system. But I respect WSL- have met him,attended two seminars by him and rolled with him. Ip Man's good students all had different things to offer.
Listening is much better than cutting people up in a forum.

Ip Man could fight just with ChanWah Son's slt before Leung bik refined his understanding of chum kiu and biu gee.

SLT, ck, and bg becomes one form with sufficient guidance, training and understanding.

A good curriculum in parallel fashion can include drills, steps, punches, palms, elbows , chi sao
to smooth-en the progression.

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 10:32 AM
:D:):D
Does SLT have any practical use without the other two if you never have a chance to learn any more?
YES. Any other Kungfu system that allowed their practitioners to learn, then cherry pick techniques from SLT only would revolutionize the industry, so to speak.

guy b.
06-23-2013, 10:43 AM
Guy's ex sifu is a young guy who leaned from Ip Chun. There are vast differences in how
people learn the sil lim tao. I don't do Ip Chun or Yeung wing chun.

If he learned anything from Ip Chun he has never mentioned it to me.

guy b.
06-23-2013, 10:50 AM
So are you saying a WSL guy thats only trained SLT is no better equipped than when he first started training

Absolutely correct. They might actually be worse equipped.

I also think that anyone that believes SNT develops usable fighting skills is deluding themselves and their students regardless of lineage. I think some teachers sell SNT as something useful because they are slow to move people through the system and pretending it is somehow useful protects their income.

*SNT level* Lol. Time to move on

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 10:50 AM
Kevin, you must be thinking of a different "clown Leung Ting" than the guy I trained with years ago. He didn't "waddle-fight" in YGKYM. He favored an explosive "advancing step" to close on his opponents. Then depending on the situation and force received, he applied pretty much what you stated below:

Actually, I have seen other WC groups who do favor fighting out of YGKYM, such as the TST lineage, but I am not nearly arrogant enough to dismiss what they do as "waddling", ...even if I don't agree with it. Well, at least not on a public forum.
You are thinking of Duck Style. :) Will this become the "Shaolin Do of Whingchun thread"?

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 11:11 AM
Uhhh....are you going to be using Tan Sau? Straight punch? Bong Sau? Pak Sau? Gan Sau? Centerline Structure? Etc? These are all from the SLT. How can you call what you do Wing Chun WITHOUT the SLT? It holds the fundamentals for the system. Sure you can learn all of these things from drilling, but the SLT is solo training for proper placement and structure of each. Can you get away with ONLY doing the SLT? No! But I don't think that is what the original poster was asking. I took his question to mean if one had trained at SLT level but had not yet learned the CK form and advanced to that level, would he have some practical skills. Since SLT level is going to teach him basic Wing Chun techniques and structure, my answer is "yes"! Maybe I am wrong and the original poster meant he only practiced the form and nothing else, but I doubt it. I think we are creating an argument here that doesn't really exist.
You can get away with only doing SLT if you incorporate it into another style, very well. Style doesn't even have to be Chinese. It happens. Has happened. :)

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 11:18 AM
Over the years I have learned that there are many variations on what is consider "Yip Man Wing Chun." His students went on to teach and every one of them did things a little differently. I'm sure Yip Man himself didn't teach and organize things exactly like his own teachers, and probably didn't teach and organize things the same way at the beginning of each teaching career compared to the final years of his teaching career. So it is rather silly for people to be making such definitive statements about was IS and IS NOT "Yip Man" Wing Chun. The "real", "genuine" "Yip Man Wing Chun" died with Yip Man. Everyone moves a bit differently, thinks a bit differently, remembers their own instruction a bit differently and therefore organizes their material a bit differently.
Yip Man Wingchun form is alive and well. I can spot it immediately whenever I see any practitioner perform SLT. A good thing. Genuine, if you are into preserving. :) That is TCMA.

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 11:40 AM
Yes I use Tan Sau in SLT for training the punch. Not for punching or blocking things.



Ok I guess you could use the punch as it is in SLT but I prefer to use it with a pivot and step. The punching in SLT is for training the mechanics. If you want to stand in from of an aggressive attacker and try and punch him whilst stood in YGKYM that's up to you mate! :)



Bong Sau in SLT does not work. It needs the correct roatation speed and the pivot and/or step for it to work properly. It also needs a punch with it (Kwan Sau)



You would use a pak sau like it is trained in SLT on an opponent would you? :confused:



The above answer applies



WTF does that mean?:confused:



You can't but SLT is for training not fighting



Yes true but many things cannot function correctly until we add the step/pivot and strategy from CK



Agree



Agree


It was


Are we?:confused: I was taught Bong Sau (deflective block), Tan Sau (deflective block) and use them only as such. Murder on the nerves. Mantis practice does likewise. Fook Sau (Little Cannon) self-explanatory.

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 12:13 PM
SNT level? This should take only a few lessons. It isn't rocket science



How on earth would you put any power or strategy into what you learn in SNT without learning anything else? Wing chun is not "application" inn response to stimulus. That is karate. If you learned footwork (all footwork?) then you would still be several pence short of the pound that is CK, and functioning with just CK, no dummy, no pole, no knives, no BJ makes for an extremely limited fighter. You would still be better off throwing wild haymakers or getting into a bar style grapple I think than trying to make do with that.

Wing chun is supposed to be a fast system to learn. The bare bones of it takes no time at all. It is getting good that takes practice. I don't understand people that are left at SNT level. What are they teaching you FFS?
Would like to hear people stop referring to WingChun as a "fast to learn system". That is all part of the "Return to Ming" creation myth.

Hendrik
06-23-2013, 12:38 PM
Would like to hear people stop referring to WingChun as a "fast to learn system". That is all part of the "Return to Ming" creation myth.

By history evidence, the post 1855 three sets system Wck is indeed designed to be a fast to learn system against the traitors of the uprising. And used to train fighter and assassin for the next 15 years or so.

However, in 1855 those who designed the fast to learn system, Do carry over the part , what we called snt set today , into the fast to learn system.

The real issue today is some people trying to get rid of snt, which is a part of the fast to learn system . Due to they don't know what it is for.


It is not the snt , it is they don't know what it is but thinking they know Wck based on their own mind set.

KPM
06-23-2013, 01:16 PM
Yip Man Wingchun form is alive and well. I can spot it immediately whenever I see any practitioner perform SLT. A good thing. Genuine, if you are into preserving. :) That is TCMA.

You think so? Are you referring to Yip Man Wing Chun when he first arrived and started teaching in Hong Kong? When he was younger and in good shape? Or Yip Man Wing Chun during his final years when he was weak and suffering from cancer? Yip Man Wing Chun when he was teaching in Fo Shan after training with Chan Wah Shun? Or Yip Man Wing Chun after he worked with Leung Bik and was teaching in Hong Kong? Are you referring to Yip Man Wing Chun as taught to a 17 year old kid into street fighting? Or Yip Man Wing Chun as taught to an older man with intellectual leanings and former Kung Fu training? Are you referring to the Yip Man Wing Chun taught publicly in his school? Or the Yip Man Wing Chun taught privately to his disciples? As I noted before, genuine 100% "Yip Man" Wing Chun died with Yip Man!

Hendrik
06-23-2013, 01:38 PM
Yip man Wck form hard ware as he passed in his sets before his passing showing a good preservation .

We only need to install some needed 1850 wck software for Some calibration and it will be fine.



You think so? Are you referring to Yip Man Wing Chun when he first arrived and started teaching in Hong Kong? When he was younger and in good shape? Or Yip Man Wing Chun during his final years when he was weak and suffering from cancer? Yip Man Wing Chun when he was teaching in Fo Shan after training with Chan Wah Shun? Or Yip Man Wing Chun after he worked with Leung Bik and was teaching in Hong Kong? Are you referring to Yip Man Wing Chun as taught to a 17 year old kid into street fighting? Or Yip Man Wing Chun as taught to an older man with intellectual leanings and former Kung Fu training? Are you referring to the Yip Man Wing Chun taught publicly in his school? Or the Yip Man Wing Chun taught privately to his disciples? As I noted before, genuine 100% "Yip Man" Wing Chun died with Yip Man!

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 01:51 PM
By history evidence, the post 1855 three sets system Wck is indeed designed to be a fast to learn system against the traitors of the uprising. And used to train fighter and assassin for the next 15 years or so.

However, in 1855 those who designed the fast to learn system, Do carry over the part , what we called snt set today , into the fast to learn system.

The real issue today is some people trying to get rid of snt, which is a part of the fast to learn system . Due to they don't know what it is for.


It is not the snt , it is they don't know what it is but thinking they know Wck based on their own mind set. Yes, 3 years of intense training instead of 10. But not "a few lessons".

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 01:54 PM
You think so? Are you referring to Yip Man Wing Chun when he first arrived and started teaching in Hong Kong? When he was younger and in good shape? Or Yip Man Wing Chun during his final years when he was weak and suffering from cancer? Yip Man Wing Chun when he was teaching in Fo Shan after training with Chan Wah Shun? Or Yip Man Wing Chun after he worked with Leung Bik and was teaching in Hong Kong? Are you referring to Yip Man Wing Chun as taught to a 17 year old kid into street fighting? Or Yip Man Wing Chun as taught to an older man with intellectual leanings and former Kung Fu training? Are you referring to the Yip Man Wing Chun taught publicly in his school? Or the Yip Man Wing Chun taught privately to his disciples? As I noted before, genuine 100% "Yip Man" Wing Chun died with Yip Man! I am talking about the "old man with the hard punch" who taught his students the SLT form in Hong Kong. :) Obviously.

KPM
06-23-2013, 02:00 PM
I am talking about the "old man with the hard punch" who taught his students the SLT form in Hong Kong. :) Obviously.

Wong Shun Leung could only teach Wong Shun Leung's understanding of Yip Man's Wing Chun with Wong Shun Leung's own adaptations and interpretations. Leung Sheung could only teach Leung Sheung's understanding of Yip Man's Wing Chun with Leung Sheung's own adaptations and interpretations. Ho Kam Ming could only teach Ho Kam Ming's understanding of Yip Man's Wing Chun with Ho Kam Ming's adaptations and understandings. You get the picture? Too many people want to treat Wing Chun like some kind of religion. Rigid dogmatism should not be part of the honest study of ANY martial art.

KPM
06-23-2013, 02:07 PM
I also think that anyone that believes SNT develops usable fighting skills is deluding themselves and their students regardless of lineage.

Picture a young woman standing in line outside a movie theater. She is SLT "level" in Wing Chun with about 4 months of training. Suddenly she feels someone grab her wrist from behind. She twirls around, does a quick "tuit sau" from SLT to break his grasp, shoves him away, and then turns to run and catch up with her friends. That's SLT, and that counts as a "practical skill" in my book.


I think some teachers sell SNT as something useful because they are slow to move people through the system and pretending it is somehow useful protects their income.

And just how many people do know that are teaching Wing Chun are doing it for living?

*SNT level* Lol. Time to move on

Yeah, I think you are right. Because clearly you are not here to discuss. You are here to argue.

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 02:11 PM
Hong Kong WC is Yip Man WC. Even Master Yiu Choi's last student, Master Fok Chiu would show/train his students (public park) this SLT version of SLT out of respect for Master Yip, starting in the 1950's. Still teaching in Hong Kong publicly, Hong Kong style SLT. :) http://www.fokchiuwingchunusa.com/

BPWT
06-23-2013, 02:13 PM
I am talking about the "old man with the hard punch" who taught his students the SLT form in Hong Kong. :) Obviously.

But did the 'old man with the hard punch' pivot when he punched really hard? :D

That is the question. ;)

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 02:30 PM
Do you pivot during your SLT set ? :D

Hendrik
06-23-2013, 03:12 PM
Certainly not a few lesson , but not 3 years either.

With what we know today, three months with six hours daily is more likely.



Yes, 3 years of intense training instead of 10. But not "a few lessons".

KungFubar
06-23-2013, 03:22 PM
Certainly not a few lesson , but not 3 years either.

With what we know today, three months with six hours daily is more likely.

which question is this the answer to?

BPWT
06-23-2013, 03:23 PM
Do you pivot during your SLT set ? :D

One of the places I train at is a Sports University - girls from various dance classes often walk past our training hall, dressed in 'interesting' outfits.

I have been known to pivot at those moments :D

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 03:26 PM
Certainly not a few lesson , but not 3 years either.

With what we know today, three months with six hours daily is more likely.

Three years intensive training is the way the story goes. (back then, to ovewthrow the Qing) not to start your own franchise.

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 03:30 PM
One of the places I train at is a Sports University - girls from various dance classes often walk past our training hall, dressed in 'interesting' outfits.

I have been known to pivot at those moments :D
That's the Sports in Shorts set.

Hendrik
06-23-2013, 03:34 PM
We go by history facts not stories.


Got nothing todo with over throw the Qing as in the movie.

It got to do with the revenge to take down the traitors after the Qing killed the red boat opera members and burn down the fine jade hall in 1855. There is no more anti qing red boat after 1855. 15 years later another different opera group started, but those are Qing support.


They don't have three years. They need it right away to take down the traitors. The battle started in 1854 and ended around 1861, the red boat army of lee man mau where totally wipe out.
Also end up with a friction with choy lee fut style in some area.


So, no, there is no shaolin, no Jee Shim shaolin monk, no NG Mui in 1850, those are pseudoname, burning of shaolin is a pseudoname of burning of fine jade hall.


But Wck is real in the battle field.


Also, from the history we know, pre 1855 wing chun lineages all is practice a single long set system. The three sets system exist only after 1855. Thus, any lineages claim to be older then the red boat wing chun kuen and practice three sets only without having the single long set, are not fitting the fact in the history.


Read this

http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/ccwayne/scwc-tai-pingheavenlykingdomrevolutionerawcksinglesetsystem evolvesintoathreesetssystemscwcykwaa

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/tai-ping-heavenly-kingdom-revolution-erawckandchoyleefutfriendorfoescwcykwaa

http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/ccwayne/scwc-tai-pingheavenlykingdomrevolutionerawingchuntransmissi onscwcykwaa-22229730



Three years intensive training is the way the story goes. (back then, to ovewthrow the Qing) not to start your own franchise.

guy b.
06-23-2013, 04:01 PM
Yes, 3 years of intense training instead of 10. But not "a few lessons".

3 years on intense training to learn SNT? You have got to be joking. Are you unusually slow?

Hendrik
06-23-2013, 04:18 PM
For those who question the practicality of siu Lin tau, one of many fact is, without the snake engine/ structure develop in siu Lin tau, the art cannot take the 1855 choy lee fut traitors momentum which they go against.

So, one needs that engine or structure in week, not month, not years.

KungFubar
06-23-2013, 04:39 PM
Ok so WCK = Wing Chun Kuen the single long set?

Hendrik
06-23-2013, 05:21 PM
Wck just mean wing chun kuen




Ok so WCK = Wing Chun Kuen the single long set?

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 06:30 PM
3 years on intense training to learn SNT? You have got to be joking. Are you unusually slow?
That was THEN, I thought I was clear on that. Three years to be battle ready in Wingchun that was formulated with purpose. Secret hand signal training to overthrow the Manchu's who took control of China with the use of FIREPOWER. Just as the Japanese would do at a later date. Get with the program, you are not battle ready. :)

KungFubar
06-23-2013, 06:52 PM
Wck just mean wing chun kuen

what is the difference between WCK and WC? not the acronyms but the arts.

GlennR
06-23-2013, 07:03 PM
what is the difference between WCK and WC? not the acronyms but the arts.

Nothing, same thing

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 07:39 PM
This story, way before the guys started dressing up and singing falsetto: http://sifuochwingchun.com/wing-chun-kung-fu-history/sil-lum-shaolin-temple-destruction/

Hendrik
06-23-2013, 07:46 PM
Many people in the west just create the his-story as they like. Shaws brother kungfu movies are their truth.

As I mention above, an authentic Wck history has to match in Chinese history, anti Qing or secret society history, and the DNA of the art.

One can't imply make up history and making claim as they like.


Thus, I think it is time for us wcners to educate ourself with facts instead of buy into stories and stories.


This story, way before the guys started dressing up and singing falsetto: http://sifuochwingchun.com/wing-chun-kung-fu-history/sil-lum-shaolin-temple-destruction/

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 07:54 PM
AND This: http://wingchunassoc.com/about/history/fiveelders.htm

Hendrik
06-23-2013, 08:10 PM
Focus on what is fact instead of wasting energy in other directions.


AND This: http://wingchunassoc.com/about/history/fiveelders.htm

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 08:43 PM
AND This: :) http://wingchunassoc.com/about/history/ywctocws.htm

PalmStriker
06-23-2013, 08:54 PM
Cannot accept WingChun TCMA origin as having been poofed out of a vacuum on the back of an effeminate monk that fled from the-to-be torched Southern Shaolin temple to hide out in colorful costumes and teach a bunch of actors an assassin's art for the sole purpose of Vendetta against the same people who had them on the run. If true, not-so-smaat as they only drew attention to themselves and put the people who relied on the Opera boats for survival at risk. :) Not that it bothers me.

bogdan.sifu
06-23-2013, 09:20 PM
Does SLT have any practical use without the other two if you never have a chance to learn any more?

No, it's just a blue print.

You can't live in a blue print, you need to build the house.

anerlich
06-24-2013, 03:27 PM
Cannot accept WingChun TCMA origin as having been poofed out of a vacuum on the back of an effeminate monk that fled from the-to-be torched Southern Shaolin temple to hide out in colorful costumes and teach a bunch of actors an assassin's art for the sole purpose of Vendetta against the same people who had them on the run. If true, not-so-smaat as they only drew attention to themselves and put the people who relied on the Opera boats for survival at risk. :) Not that it bothers me.

That's a more entertaining and plausible history than many I've heard, including Hendrik's.

Extra points for including "poofed" and "effeminate" in a single sentence.

JPinAZ
06-24-2013, 04:25 PM
Many people in the west just create the his-story as they like. Shaws brother kungfu movies are their truth.

Don't you live in the west?


One can't imply make up history and making claim as they like.

So then, why do you continue to do it thread after thread? Oh yeah, because you live in 'the west'.... :rolleyes:

PalmStriker
06-24-2013, 07:08 PM
Hendrik does point out that his lineage is not mainstream, and not derived through the 3 Heroes of Fatshan, which is OK. :) Butt, :D From the Hard style Red Boat lineage SnakeCraneQuan that I have posted in another thread ("cousins"), the stuff Hendrik has been posting does not ring any bells there, either. I would kike to see a vid that has some life to it. Will find the vid I am talking about and re-post here. Otherwise, to hear SLT described as a "blueprint" :( might as well call it "an exercise in flower-petal puffy loo-loo." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lcjvMzulHI

Ali. R
06-25-2013, 10:53 AM
When training in SLT it’s not how fast one can move, and the best practitioners uses timing anyway, because timing can deal with speed. Almost everyone grows up learning the one, two or one, two, three from when their dad put the gloves on them for the first time, and for most of us that will/can take you a long way in life, it did for me.

See, I’d grew up tasting the salty affects of having a busted nose or lip practically once every other month, but still did quite well outside of getting my but kicked by my brothers. And It boggles the mind that some may feel that you can’t pop out a ‘tan da’,‘pak da’ or some form of ‘lop sao’ after doing it over a thousand and one times plus. I’d did fine without knowing how to use proper footwork, counterpunching, defense and everything else that went with boxing before training formally.

And you have guys that weren’t formally trained at all that do quite well using the very basic of fighting. And the way I see it, you have a lot of guys that need to go back to ‘SLT,’ that are way ahead of themselves with bad structure, no timing consistent deviation of principles; while in most cases their ‘Chum Kil’, ‘Wooden Man’ is non-existent when they’re sparring or in application. I’m not here to teach anyone anything because no one asked me nothing, And Joy couldn’t have said it any better.

What I’m saying is, you have to start somewhere and it’s up to the man or practitioner who could/will develop a strong foundation of the basic fundamentals that will make you solid, and not from how many forms you may know, which in most cases are undeveloped anyway. Everything else outside of ‘SLT’ is a plus. And it’s simple, either you have heart or you don’t, but that shouldn’t keep you from doing your best when fighting of training while in the earlier stages of learning ‘wing chun’.


Take care,

Wayfaring
06-25-2013, 11:07 AM
What I’m saying is, you have to start somewhere and it’s up to the man or practitioner who could/will develop a strong foundation of the basic fundamentals that will make you solid, and not from how many forms you may know, which in most cases are undeveloped anyway. Everything else outside of ‘SLT’ is a plus. And it’s simple, either you have heart or you don’t, but that shouldn’t keep you from doing your best when fighting of training while in the earlier stages of learning ‘wing chun’.


I'd say the main difference I've seen in my SLT training is the detail of the skill development at that level in HFY. For example, everybody knows SLT is the "little idea", and that it involves focusing on yourself to develop fundamentals, posture, etc. - the foundation like you are saying.

What I saw different in HFY at the SLT level was the kiu sau layer (intro to HFY chi sau), and the sup ming dim - 10 bright points - taught by the HFY formula. So there is constant verification of structure. An SLT is about structure - your own internal structure - limbs in alignment with each other and your body, and your structure alignment to your opponent. The HFY formula is all about measurements to show your structure - centerline, height, width, range (outer/inner door), facing.

Can I use it? A framework that helps me spar live with proper structure in myself and facing to my opponent? Yes I use it all the time. I even notice similar structure amongst some of the better boxers - never getting over extended or collapsed in on themselves, etc.

The Yip Man SLT I felt in comparison was more just learning to use the elements of Wing Chun - tan, bong, fuk. And maybe centerline.

Ali. R
06-25-2013, 11:18 AM
The Yip Man SLT I felt in comparison was more just learning to use the elements of Wing Chun - tan, bong, fuk. And maybe centerline.


But it's a lot more than just applications (The Yip Man System).



Take care,

JPinAZ
06-25-2013, 11:50 AM
I even notice similar structure amongst some of the better boxers - never getting over extended or collapsed in on themselves, etc.


That's really cool you said that, I've notice this same thing as well as well in regards to HFY's WC Formula/Sup Ming Dim and how some of the better boxers operate.

In the end, it's all about efficiency. And the more time you spend doing something, the more your body will naturally learn how to move more efficiently (well, it should anyway). The jewel of HFY's Sup Ming Dim is that you have a constant meter to gauge where you're at in that regard every step of the way, as well as a guide that can instantly help you correct errors when you find them (structural, spacial, facing, etc).
This was and still is one of the biggest eye openers to me when I discovered the HFY system. It really helps take out the the guess work as well and cuts down on the need for 'sifu said do it this way' type of arguments. I see students self corecting on a daily basis during drills once they understand the basic ideas of the WC Formula. Good stuff! :)

tc101
06-25-2013, 12:01 PM
The Yip Man SLT I felt in comparison was more just learning to use the elements of Wing Chun - tan, bong, fuk. And maybe centerline.

The SLT I learned had much more depth than that and I come from a YM lineage.

Ali. R
06-25-2013, 12:24 PM
Most ‘Yip Man’ systems develop ‘SLT’ within the transition of movements and adjustments, not by holding structures alone (using limits or fixed structures) when doing the applications/forms, but through the dynamics of softness/springy energies of the small structures in between each movement. Structures in most cases are not held when it’s time to reroute/redirect energy, block or attack, again, it’s within the transition of application or within one movement to the next when doing the form (SLT) where all of the dynamics and power is truly seen and developed within 'SLT'.

In most cases, the small structures in which I’m speaking about can be found within most wing chun forms, and would not be hidden if one pay attention to one’s structures and applications while in transition to the next. When it comes to ‘structural force or springy force handling’, they’re the shapes that one gets when dealing with transitions which are developed through the sensibility of the primary structural intent and through adjustments of structural understanding that brings true development within the form or within it's system (SLT), and as well with most of its developments (wing chun).


Take care,

Vajramusti
06-25-2013, 02:51 PM
The Yip Man SLT I felt in comparison was more just learning to use the elements of Wing Chun - tan, bong, fuk. And maybe centerline.
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Much more to it than that...but you can think what you want to.

GlennR
06-26-2013, 02:25 AM
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Much more to it than that...but you can think what you want to.

Id agree Joy, its all about YKGM to me and implementing that into all the movements

Graham H
06-26-2013, 03:27 AM
Id agree Joy, its all about YKGM to me and implementing that into all the movements

Do you also stand on one leg and get guys twice the size of you to try and push you over via you tan sau? :)

Vajramusti
06-26-2013, 06:56 AM
Do you also stand on one leg and get guys twice the size of you to try and push you over via you tan sau? :)
------------------------------------------------

??Do you?

Graham H
06-26-2013, 07:35 AM
------------------------------------------------

??Do you?

The only time I stand on one leg Joy is when Johnny Lawrence sweeps my leg and Mr Myagi tells me so. In fact when Ralph Macchio done it in the Karate Kid it was more believable than when TST does it. :D

Vajramusti
06-26-2013, 08:57 AM
The only time I stand on one leg Joy is when Johnny Lawrence sweeps my leg and Mr Myagi tells me so. In fact when Ralph Macchio done it in the Karate Kid it was more believable than when TST does it. :D
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Great! With your opinion and a token I can ride the NYC subway some day.

GlennR
06-26-2013, 03:14 PM
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Great! With your opinion and a token I can ride the NYC subway some day.

Bwahahahah... nice one Joy

GlennR
06-26-2013, 03:16 PM
Do you also stand on one leg and get guys twice the size of you to try and push you over via you tan sau? :)

No, i stand on the countless youtube clips of PB doing the same thing which makes me so high no one can reach me....... i actually have to duck the satellites as they fly past

Graham H
06-26-2013, 11:54 PM
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Great! With your opinion and a token I can ride the NYC subway some day.

If you need somebody to read the map so you can find your way there I'm sure Kev will oblige! :p

Graham H
06-26-2013, 11:55 PM
No, i stand on the countless youtube clips of PB doing the same thing which makes me so high no one can reach me....... i actually have to duck the satellites as they fly past

Quack quack!

guy b.
06-27-2013, 01:51 AM
The strength of good wing chun is that it is both simple and profound. It is a work of genius really. I don't see why people want to complicate it so much with layers of extra theory. Getting really good at simple ideas is difficult enough.

lance
07-09-2013, 12:05 AM
Does SLT have any practical use without the other two if you never have a chance to learn any more? KungFubar , to me SLT is basically a stationary form where you learn the basic vertical fist punch , correct elbow positioning , blocks and strikes , and how to use the elbow for striking in a certain way . But it ' ll be good to learn the 2 - other forms like chum kiu and bil jee . But since the forms will take awhile for you to learn , better to just learn the applications to the 3 - forms , then you pretty much have a good arsenal to use when the situation takes place . Then when you master the applications to each form then the forms should really become easy for you to learn . Chum Kiu and bil jee is where the kicks in WC comes from . Chum Kiu is a moving form , where bil jee is more of a emergency where you get injured , but still be able to fight off your attackers .

Look at Bruce Lee he learned SLT and modfied it to make it work for him , but it did ' nt work for him against Sifu Wong Jack Man . So he put SLT on the side and began researching other arts to see what they have , to offer BL himself .

hulkout
07-10-2013, 06:02 PM
The way it was explained to me, Sil Lim Tao teaches you what Wing Chun should feel like. The stance, the structure, the centreline, the forward energy, etc. It's a feeling that you want to be natural. This feeling is more important than the applications at least in the beginning. And when you start moving, you still want the same feeling. If you lose centre, you want to move to get back the feeling as quickly as possible executing whatever techniques are necessary (elbow up, immediately switch to tan sao). This feeling along with the principles is the most important part of Wing Chun. Straight line, centreline, nearest weapon to the target, save time, movement, and energy, etc combined with feeling one gets in Sil Lim Tao will result in the most efficient attack/defense. So really, Sil Lim Tao is the most important thing you'll ever learn in Wing Chun IF you understand this and have a sifu who will be strict with you and really make you understand it and correct all the little mistakes. If however you simply go through the motions and don't understand this, then it's utterly useless.