SLT & Sam Chien

[Paul T England]

Hi does anyone have expeirence of Siu Lim Tao and the 3 Battles kata used in Goju and south shaolin styles?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[guy b.]

I have done a bit of chow gar spm which has the sarm bo jin 1st form

[Kellen Bassette]

I've done Go Ju Sanchin.

[guy b.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vBxRXG7Ts40#at=72

[guy b.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dBMj9NuhiKI#at=87

[guy b.]

Good clip here. Watch from 7 mins

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jpTp7yJdUA

[X_plosion]

Some practitioners of Five Ancestors Fist (Ngo Cho Kun, Wu Zu Quan) say their Sam Chien form is the root for Uechi Ryu and Goju Ryu Sanchin .

[Paul T England]

How can a understanding of it help your wing chun siu nim tao?

[k gledhill]

I was taught dynamic iso-tonic elbow during slt. It develops strong joint angle control. You have to do the tan sao 1-2 minutes out, huen, Jum, wu, 1-2 minutes , fook 1-2 minutes.....repeat as form. The arm should not look like it is moving during this section of the form.
When I started classes it was a routine to bow to a picture of yip man, light a stick of incense in complete silence and then the large group, silently, would do slt and the slow elbow tension section, that was a real workout with holding the stance.

[Vajramusti]

Hi does anyone have expeirence of Siu Lim Tao and the 3 Battles kata used in Goju and south shaolin styles?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FWIW- Ip Man's wing chun and sam bo chin developmental paths are quite different from each other.
Of course you will hear different views.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I have done the Okinawan/Japanese versions of Sanchin:
Okinwana Goju, Kyokushin, Uechi-ryu
And the sanjian of Fujian White Crane.
And the sam boo gin of SPM
And one of the WuZu versions.

And SLT.

SLT has, as I was taught it, has virtually NOTHING to do with any of them.

[JPinAZ]

Joy is correct - completely different engines.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some practitioners of Five Ancestors Fist (Ngo Cho Kun, Wu Zu Quan) say their Sam Chien form is the root for Uechi Ryu and Goju Ryu Sanchin .

Okinawan Goju's is from Fujian White Crane.
Uechi-ryu's seems like a "blend" of WuZu and dragon shape boxing.
Uechi though does have a lots of SPM influence in of itself.

[k gledhill]

Goju aka hard soft, uses different focus to vt. But dynamic iso tonic / iso metrics play a large part of our training. One can increase stamina, joint specific focus on strengthening and breathing control. Guys who train this a lot have very "heavy" relaxed arms. Not to mention stamina to maintain strong balanced mobile stances, coupled to the " arms " we have structure ; )

[Vernon]

Does Hung Ga's "Iron Wire" form more closely resemble San Chien than SLT?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Does Hung Ga's "Iron Wire" form more closely resemble San Chien than SLT?

San Chien is to IW what checkers is to chess.

[anerlich]

I too have learned a version of San Chien which I believe was White Crane based.

IMHO, while some could argue the stance has some similarities with YGKYM, I think there is little commonality with Wing Chun.

[Paul T England]

Ok so how is it a different engine?

Are they not different versions of the same engine? (your body)

whatever you do you will need rooting, centred movement, the correct balance of reaxation and tension, Yi or intention.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Minghequan]

SanZhan Ba Xian Zhang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5MzukAcL0Q

White Crane SanZhan & Gojuryu? White Crane SanZhan & Karate? No connection! Completely different energies, structure and applications!

Ngo Chu Kun & Gojuryu/Karate ... Yes.

Tiger SanZhan & Karate/Uechiryu ... Yes.

White Crane ... No!

[guy b.]

SanZhan Ba Xian Zhang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5MzukAcL0Q

White Crane SanZhan & Gojuryu? White Crane SanZhan & Karate? No connection! Completely different energies, structure and applications!

Ngo Chu Kun & Gojuryu/Karate ... Yes.

Tiger SanZhan & Karate/Uechiryu ... Yes.

White Crane ... No!

Interesting, you don't feel that the various permutations of this form don't attempt to do the same kind of thing?

[Minghequan]

Thats right! I don't believe they are all on the same page as the White Crane SanZhan (Babulian) .... I can cite numerous aspects of this but it really comes down to the internal concepts, principles and essence .... White Crane is very, very different from Karate's Sanchin and nothing at all like SLT.

[guy b.]

Thats right! I don't believe they are all on the same page as the White Crane SanZhan (Babulian) .... I can cite numerous aspects of this but it really comes down to the internal concepts, principles and essence .... White Crane is very, very different from Karate's Sanchin and nothing at all like SLT.

I should say that I don't really believe in internal aspects that don't have an obvious physical explanation. Bearing this in mind (if you don't mind), could you highlight a few of the differences please, for example differences in underlying principles?

[Hendrik]

Thats right! I don't believe they are all on the same page as the White Crane SanZhan (Babulian) .... I can cite numerous aspects of this but it really comes down to the internal concepts, principles and essence .... White Crane is very, very different from Karate's Sanchin and nothing at all like SLT.

Ron,

I agree with you.


Since you are a researcher and know Chinese,
As for wing chun siu Lin tau vs sanzhan, i have made the following Chinese language YouTube to identify what is the engine of siu Lin tau, where is siu Lin tau adapted white crane where adapted emei , why and how siu Lin tau engine is different to white crane, and the characteristics of Wck Jin while doing suck and split. Based on ancient writings of wck.

These YouTube ate in chinese because they are intended for pro Chinese martial art and history experts ie Gm Lee Kong and other gm in asia, and your reacher group class . To clearlify wck DNA and slt.

As you might have known, gm Lee Kong has agreed with wck core in the snake body crane limps DNA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc3JxHO5q90
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=a4PD3x_tCOE&feature=relmfu

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thats right! I don't believe they are all on the same page as the White Crane SanZhan (Babulian) .... I can cite numerous aspects of this but it really comes down to the internal concepts, principles and essence .... White Crane is very, very different from Karate's Sanchin and nothing at all like SLT.

Which White Crane Ron?

[Minghequan]

Which White Crane? Well I do Minghe so I can talk a little (very little!) about it but I have only seen the other (Flying, Feeding, Shaking etc) even so, I don't see it in their versions of the form either but then that's just me and I am a person of little knowledge and even less skill in such things.

Many cite Minghe as being the style that influenced Gojuryu. If this is true why doon't we see Minghe forms transplanted or at least taught in a modified form within Goju??? Okay Goju has a Sanchin which is more aligned to Ngo Cho Kun then Minghe ... read Alex Co's book on this very similarities. It's said that Tensho is based on the Bubishi's Rokkishu ... not a Minghe form. personally I see the 6 Ji hands in Babulian but again thats just me.

[Minghequan]

I should say that I don't really believe in internal aspects that don't have an obvious physical explanation. Bearing this in mind (if you don't mind), could you highlight a few of the differences please, for example differences in underlying principles?

Guy,

Neither do I ... Internals are just higher expressions of knowledge manifested in the body (physical). So we agree here.

Some examples with the physical in mind???

1/. “Small Lady Steps” or the “Crane Stepping in a Marsh” - "Kunyan-pu" . The concept that underpins our style in this area is the stepping method. Vastly different from that seen in Sanchin Kata. The Crane Steps in a Marsh see's the feet brought up in a type of Knee/Leg check or block (Hidden Kicks) and then planted down with the rear foot taking up the distance and connecting to the ground (root) via a form of what we term "bicycle stepping" a type of double weighting. In Sanchin the steps are circular, held closer to the ground and static almost rigidly connected to the ground, not free moving (Bicycle Stepping). Stances are always in motion, constantly searching the earth for ground-reaction-energy in a manner similar to riding a bicycle. Lihn Bouh (Continuous Stepping) … an ever-changing relationship between the Yin and the Yang. This type of stepping is extremely natural and allows the practitioner the opportunity of being able to change direction and stances quickly and in a natural and fluid manner. This type of movement is similar in many ways to riding a bicycle or skating. Crane-Fist movements are done fast, with rapid advancement or withdrawal and body-shifting. The fighter is constantly moving. His/her footwork both confuses his attacker and provides openings. The “Tiger Waist Kunyan-Pu" circular step-method designed to protect the lower body whilst moving forward. Also used as a leg attack & Body-Change motion. The lead foot takes a half step forward (1.), this is then followed by the rear foot arcing in a inwards and high circular fashion (2.) and then continuing forwards (3.) until; it takes up the stance (4.) at which time the rear foot shuffles forward slightly and then presses to the ground (4.) as depicted in the series of actions shown above. Dow Ma – Which is an entering motion on an angle as well as for advancing or retreating quickly bridging ground. Used primarily when making a Body-Change in relation to an opponents acts of aggression. Bik Bouh - Rear foot slides up to front foot and "kicks" it forward used in rapid attacking motions to advance forward and bridge the gap between the practitioner and opponent.

2/. Jin (劲) or the internal martial energy. Shaking White Crane is also known as ZongHe in Fuzhou dialect. “Zong” means “to shake off”. In order to shake when striking the opponent, you need this shaking style of force. The Jin in Shaking White Crane is a stream of powerful spring-like internal energy enabling you to strike and penetrate during a close range fight. When touched by this Shaking White Crane Jin, your opponent will have a feeling of being shocked by the lightening.

3/. The use of the voice in martial arts can be found in most any style of martial art throughout the world. It manifests itself as the "Kiai" in Okinawan/Japanese arts or白鶴鳴叫Báihè míngjiào (“Crane Call”)

In Chinese arts. It is one of the most used expressions of breath and breathing/yelling seen in the martial arts. The use of the voice is said to unify one's body, mind and spirit together for a single combative purpose.
The spirit yell is also used for raising one's spirit and healing one's own body or the body of another.

The use of the Báihè míngjiào in Chinese martial arts refers to the emission of different sounds for the purpose of a strike to a vulnerable area of the body, healing another or raising ones own spirit. It is associated with the theories of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM)and the expression of Qi.

The use of sound and breath can add between 40 percent and 100 percent more energy to a given technique provided the correct intent is also there. A perfectly executed Báihè míngjiào in White Crane can add energy to the technique then just the technique on its own.

In all there are 6 sounds, the base theory behind sound is that the healing or hurting technique becomes more effective when one emits the appropriate sound.

Lets look at the sounds used in our White Crane Boxing as seen within the White Crane Research Institute:

The “Hen” Sound:
One way of making or utilizing the “Hen” sound is when you are exhaling. This is classified as being positive (Yang) but with an element of Yin; as with all things martial, a balance is desirable.This noise or spirit yell is used in an attack where you do not want to express all the Jing outwards. The second and probably most important manifestation of the “Hen” sound is used when inhaling. In this case it is pure Yin and used when applying a yielding, neutralizing or retreating type of move. It is alos used to store the Spirit, condensing it into your body and bones. When making the “Hen” sound condense the Qi to your spine and lead the Qi from the bottom of the feet up to the Dan Tien. The “Hen” sound is Yin or negative and hlps the Qi flow back to the body. One should have a feeling of calming ones’ spirit and bringing energy in to the body with the “Hen” sound.

The “Ha” & “Ho” Sound:
The “Ha” and “Ho” sound is strong with Yang and thusly positive in its energy manifestation. It’s mostly used in attacking the opponent. This sound raises one’s Spirit of Vitality to its highest level enabling the Qi to support the Jing in attacking.When you exhale with the “Ha” or “Ho” sound one should feel a strong flow of Qi in the palms which you may experience as warmth and a almost electric tingling sensation. Your Yi (mind) must extend deep into the opponent in order to make use of the “Ha” or “Ho” sound. This allows the Qi to flow without hesitation. Your Yi (mind) will then support your palm in the deliverance of the intended strike. When you make the “Ha” or “Ho” sound the Qi should be directed in the same direction as the sound with a second flow down to the Dan Tian and feet. Many Open hand forms are Yang (positive) and even though performed in a balnced fashion the “Ha” or “Ho” sound is used to express the energy. When you make the “Ha” or “Ho” sound the Qi Sinks and then is directed via the attacking weapons and the body is rooted to the ground. It is used with a short powerful pulse of energy.

The “He” Sound:
The “He” sound is most commonly used in attacking along with that of the “Ha” Sound. The power expression is rounded and not straight in as with the “Ha” sound. It is known in TCM as regulating ones heart.

The “Hei” Sound:
“Hei” is used to regulate the lungs and used both in inhalation and exhalation. It is used to clear ones lungs and increase the intake of air into the body This short sound is also used to generate power in the arms and body and is seen is such movements as “White Crane Drawing Back the Neck” seen in our senior forms.

The “Sa” Sound:
“Sa’ is a deadly serious sound in White Crane Boxing as it is the sound of death. It is used to raise ones’ killing spirit or intent, when a technique is applied with the sound of “Sa” it is penetrating and the spirit is held high.

The “Hu” Sound:
The final sound to be looked at here is that of “Hu” which is mainly used to relax the body, lungs and spirit after a fight or forms practice. The “Hu” sound is used in TCM and Qigong to regulate the spleen. The sounds must come from the Dan Tien and not the throat.

The Chinese White Crane art known as “Calling Crane” is but one of the Chinese Gongfu art to use sounds in the execution of its techniques and forms. In this art sounds are used to energise the body with Qi and to emit or transmit Qi in to a given strike or series of strikes.

The SanZhan makes use of these sounds to bring the aspects of the body together (rooting, muscular tension and relaxation, song, movement, intent and technique), the mind (focus, perception and intent) and Spirit (breathing, Development of Qi, expression or transmission of Qi.

SanZhan trains the Triple Warmer Meridian. The inhalation of the breath draws in and stores energy while the exhalation trains the 3 warmers and expresses the QiThese three warmers are covered by the use of specific sounds. The "Ho" sound trains the upper warmer (from the nipple line to the top of the head). The "Hen" sound trains the middle warmer (from the nipple line to the Dantien) and the use of the Sa" sound trains the lower warmer (from the Dantien to the feet) and is also considered to be a "Killing Sound" when used in attack.

This use of breathing trains the governor, the conception and midline or "belt" Vessels.

The basic theory behind the use of sounds in the martial and healing arts is that the healing or hurting techniques become more effective when one emits the appropriate sound behind the movement being executed.

There is a saying in White Crane"Du pi ruan ru mian, du nei ying ru tie" This roughly translates as: "The skin of the surface of the belly is as soft as cotton wool while the inside of the belly is as hard as an iron block".

This means the White Crane art believes in soft, lasting and even breathing. When breathing in, the Dan Tian contracts and when breathing out the Dan Tain area is loose and Qi flushes in the area. This kind of breathing works the belly/stomach muscles and makes them hard, while when the belly goes loose it is then very soft. Being hard or soft is the influence of the Qi.

[Minghequan]

More ...........

SanZhan benefits within a Practical Application View & Context:

SanZhan seeks to embody the essence of personal Life-Protection and the generation of a very high level of energy:

• The use of stance to generate power Stance is usually the “San Jiao Ma” or triangular stance. This is almost the same stance found in many Tai Chi Forms. Jin is, as a rule, launched by the rear leg. Fajin at this level is the highly exaggerated rear-leg exploding motion that is very obvious. This is a good example of our "ground reaction" Jin training in Fuzhou Crane. We 'push" our Jin into the ground and "bounce" off using the reaction.

• SanZhan is a water element form mainly because of the Jin that one seeks to train when doing this form. “Shui Lan” or “Water Wave” Jin is the main aim of training in this form. It is a similar to the silk cocoon jin that you'll find in Taiji except that there is a more ‘rolling’ type of movement to express the Jin.

• The application of Sanzhan is to be found more in the hand movements. If you observe the “hands cycle” portion of the form, you should be able to detect the 5 Elements (Wu Xing Shou) sequence. This element cycle changes from style to style so it is of little use to go into this deeper just here but I will touch upon the concept elsewhere within this syllabus and exploration.

• SanZhan teaches one how to fight in terms of touch and go with little pause in between. You see this concept in action in all our forms, applications and techniques. One application of this energy is to pull both palms in (palms inward) and release Jin instantly palms out. Look at SanZhan and you will see this action repeated many times. The whole idea is to stay relaxed and using the pulling in to generate the thrusting out reaction.

• And this is also how we push and strike - Jin applied in the hind leg to generate the reactive ground Jin that we direct to our hands. This is very effective if you crouch a little and then straighten your body to achieve the upwards thrust lift. A little like in Tai Chi less obvious in expression.

• The energy is mainly generated by twisting of the hips with the body staying relaxed. The descriptive poem is “Body like a willow, hands like bullets”. “Shen Ru Yang Liu, Shou Ru Tan”

• Elbow – My system uses the elbow in many “bridge” smashing techniques. Naturally hard at the tip makes it a good breaking tool. The breaking is done is many ways. I am going to talk about one for illustration – a beginner’s technique. Against an incoming upper gate attack to your face, you apply a Palm deflection with one hand and smash the attacker’s hand with your other elbow. A good target is the inner side of the arm behind the thumb area – the earth point of the heart meridian. Or the outside behind the little finger – along the small intestine meridian.

The Palm and elbow in must be timed together. Or if you meet a high sweep kick to your face area, like a Muay Thai kick, you could elbow the instep area of the foot instead of blocking.

• The Palm comes in many forms. The back palm is a whipping and slapping out weapon. This is often times aimed at upper gate at the eyes. The idea it to “attack east and hit the west” In Crane, you attack the upper and kick the groin or other lower points in one go.

[Minghequan]

And .....

I’ve been asked about my position on the origin of Karate. I firmly do not believe that Karate can be traced back to Fuzhou cranes because most Karate folks have little inkling or none at all about this elemental He Quan Quan Jue.

It is clearly reflected in how they move.

The usual “swallowing, spitting, sinking and floating” that you hear about is really more Fukien, like in Fukien White Crane, Ngo Chor, Tai Chor etc and Shaolin.

Fuzhou Crane on the other hand has got the additional “internal” aspect. This is manifested in all our techniques, principles and Fist Poems.

In Fuzhou Crane, we are taught that techniques are just but a manifestation of our fighting principles. Forms are the ways and not the ends. Every drills / forms and 2 man sets are designed to teach the body to behave in a certain manner during a fight. Of course the whole idea is to mimic a crane.

Fuzhou White Crane is not "Karate" nor is it related to "Hakutsuru."

Many within the martial arts world state that there exists a link from Okinawan Karate to that of Fuzhou White Crane but nothing could be further from the truth.
Fuzhou White Crane as a unique art form and tradition has no verifiable link to Okinawan Karate and even less to that which is commonly termed "Hakutsuru."

Okinawans did not get their materials from Fuzhou. They may have acquired it from Fujian / Taiwan or any other part of China but not Fuzhou.

Karate researchers are better off looking at Ngo Chor (5 Elders) and Tai Chor (Grand Ancestor) rather that White Crane per se. These 2 styles are greatly influenced by Fukien White Crane and these could be their original source.

The Tiger Kung Fu is the very one that the Uechi Ryu people align themselves with.Karate contains very little White Crane. There is some Chinese connection but definitely not White Crane. Most Karate folks talk about Fuzhou White Crane but nothing they do comes close. Goju-Ryu seems more aligned to Ngo Chor. Uechi-Ryu would seem to reflect the essence of Tiger Kung Fu within its technical make-up.

Fuzhou White Crane is a totally unique art and is in no way related to modern "Crane Karate" and "Hakutsuru" as taught by other groups.

Their purported Crane kata are nothing like what we do in Fuzhou White Crane – especially in relation to fundamental root dissimilarities and not stylistics. It would seem that the only thing they obtained out of Fuzhou is the names of their katas.
As for "Hakutsuru", a few think that White Crane is just a couple of crane styles blocks and crane beak hand strikes! Much (if not all) of that passed off as "Hakutsuru" has no relation to real Fuzhou White Crane.

This is not some sort of "Crane Karate". Nor is it "Hakutsuru". This is the real art
In Fuzhou Crane, we are taught that techniques are just but a manifestation of our fighting principles. Forms are the ways and not the ends. Every drills / forms and 2 man sets are designed to teach the body to behave in a certain manner during a fight. Of course the whole idea is to mimic a Crane.

In Fuzhou Crane these are transmitted in poems-like writing. If you don't have a teacher explaining - it is going to be tough. We don’t just do forms. We also do application drills, sparring drills and conditioning drills within all the various systems.

Long-Winded I know!!! ... Just hope this shows what I am trying to say here.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Which White Crane? Well I do Minghe so I can talk a little (very little!) about it but I have only seen the other (Flying, Feeding, Shaking etc) even so, I don't see it in their versions of the form either but then that's just me and I am a person of little knowledge and even less skill in such things.

Many cite Minghe as being the style that influenced Gojuryu. If this is true why doon't we see Minghe forms transplanted or at least taught in a modified form within Goju??? Okay Goju has a Sanchin which is more aligned to Ngo Cho Kun then Minghe ... read Alex Co's book on this very similarities. It's said that Tensho is based on the Bubishi's Rokkishu ... not a Minghe form. personally I see the 6 Ji hands in Babulian but again thats just me.

That's fine and I see your POV, but it doesn't take into account the very "japanese" way that the Okinawan's "modify" their MA.
In short that adapt/modify anything to THEIR indigenous MA.
The likes of Higaonna, Miyagi, Uechi and so forth, took the sanjian they were taught and made them Okinawan.

Have you read the book "hojo undo" ?
It actually names the the CM teachers:


After a number of visits to China Kanryo Higaonna become a live-in disciple of a master known as Ryu Ru Ko by the Okinawans (his Chinese name was either Liu Lu Kung or Xie Zhonghxiang depending on the dialect/spelling used). Little is known about Ryu Ru Ko but it is generally accepted that like Wan Shin San, he was a highly skilled boxer in the Crane Fist and Ancestor Fist boxing systems. There can be no doubt however that his teachings provided the basis of the fighting tradition of Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate.

It is clear that the sanchin of Goju has elements of BOTH WuZu and Bai He.

[sanjuro_ronin]

By the way, I see more SPM in Uechi ryu than I see Tiger.
According to Uechi-ryu history, it is a combination of Tiger, Crane and Dragon BUT from what I have seen and experienced of it, it seems more dragon/SPM and tiger than crane per say.
That said, I have seen some crane that has some common element.

I am beginning to think that the view that all southern systems came from the same root system, is holding much weight.

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mWh-uhw4C9s

[guy b.]

Guy,

Neither do I ... Internals are just higher expressions of knowledge manifested in the body (physical). So we agree here.

Ok great


Some examples with the physical in mind???


Thanks for the detailed descriptions. I like the bit on stepping but you lost me with the jin, sounds, meridians and Qi stuff. I don't really understand what you are referring to in physical terms with these.

The breathing you describe sounds like reverse breathing, typically done by people undertaking intense physical exertion like weight lifting. I think the reason for doing this is that it increases abdominal pressure allowing internal bracing of musculature against things like fascia, increasing cohesiveness of the trunk and aiding muscular exertion in some directions.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Reverse breathing is done in all types of Okinawan sanchin.

As for the different sounds ( the same theory applies to the Iron wire in Hung Kuen), while there is some evidence that the vibrational tone of different sounds effects us differently, there is no concrete evidence of such OUTSIDE of the VERY SMALL percentage of the population that has some world class vocal cords ( opera singers for example).
That said, the emotional aspect of certain sounds is well documented.

[Minghequan]

The Stances aspect is different in Minghe compared to Karate Sanchin.

Sounds ... nowhere in Karate do I see the depth of sounds as used in Minghe.

He Quan, Quan Jue "Crane Fist, Fist Poems" Again I don't see this manifested in Karate Sanchin.

SanZhan Ba Xian Zhang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5MzukAcL0Q

[guy b.]

The Stances aspect is different in Minghe compared to Karate Sanchin.

Sounds ... nowhere in Karate do I see the depth of sounds as used in Minghe.

He Quan, Quan Jue "Crane Fist, Fist Poems" Again I don't see this manifested in Karate Sanchin.

SanZhan Ba Xian Zhang: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5MzukAcL0Q

What do you see as the reason behind the sounds? Cause and effect emotional influence of particular sounds based on similarity of human brains? Or some kind of physical vibrational thing?

[Minghequan]

Me personally see it more as a form of relating sounds to Mind Intention (Xin-Yi) to manifest in the application.

[Ozzy Dave]

Hi does anyone have expeirence of Siu Lim Tao and the 3 Battles kata used in Goju and south shaolin styles?

San Jan (Saam Chien) is a widely practised form in many styles south of the Min River (MinNan).

If we are talking White Crane it originated in this area (Yong Chun) near Putian and I have some experience with the form as it pertains to White Crane from this region and around QuanZhou.

My personal opinion is that WC/VT follows the concept of a developmental form such as San Jan closer than the technical requirements of MinNan San Jan which can be even more abstract than SLT/SNT. Further, in a purely technical way what may appear as the same shape e.g. Tan Sao would be applied with more sideways and upwards force in White Crane than is typically seen in WC/VT. That being said, IMO if there is a technical link between San Jan and SLT/SNT it would be in the section where the Tan, Huen, Wu and Fook are cycled - called Saam Bai Fut in some lineages.

Again IMO, the White Crane done further north around FuZhou is markedly softer and more open than their southern counterparts where San Jan is primarily used among other things to help develop Iron skill through tension.

There is however enormous variation in how San Jan is played from style to style and even within a particular style often with many variations in choreography, approach and the amount and quality of tension.

Dave

[Hendrik]

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=R3keW8Sc9t8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DR3keW8Sc9t8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc3JxHO5q90




San Jan (Saam Chien) is a widely practised form in many styles south of the Min River (MinNan).

If we are talking White Crane it originated in this area (Yong Chun) near Putian and I have some experience with the form as it pertains to White Crane from this region and around QuanZhou.

My personal opinion is that WC/VT follows the concept of a developmental form such as San Jan closer than the technical requirements of MinNan San Jan which can be even more abstract than SLT/SNT. Further, in a purely technical way what may appear as the same shape e.g. Tan Sao would be applied with more sideways and upwards force in White Crane than is typically seen in WC/VT. That being said, IMO if there is a technical link between San Jan and SLT/SNT it would be in the section where the Tan, Huen, Wu and Fook are cycled - called Saam Bai Fut in some lineages.

Again IMO, the White Crane done further north around FuZhou is markedly softer and more open than their southern counterparts where San Jan is primarily used among other things to help develop Iron skill through tension.

There is however enormous variation in how San Jan is played from style to style and even within a particular style often with many variations in choreography, approach and the amount and quality of tension.

Dave

[lance]

Hi does anyone have expeirence of Siu Lim Tao and the 3 Battles kata used in Goju and south shaolin styles?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk Paul T England , Hi , to me SLT is more of the soft chi kung excercise which comes along with self defense moves . Because of the way its been practiced by wing chun masters like the Late Wong Shun Leung , GM Wiilliam Cheung , Sifu Austine Fong .

San Chien to me is more of the hard chi kung type of excercise where you learn to breath hard as you are doing basic punches and blocks , I ' ve seen Goju Ryu karate demos that ' s why . For after all , Okinawan Karate got their influences from southern chinese martial arts . Because at one time the japanese had taken over okinawa , and at the sametime the okinawans was trading with the chinese and learning martial arts from the chinese , the okinawan martial artist had fought with those southern style of kung fu practitioners and got beaten so
that ' s why even today okinawan martial arts regardless of styles or systems has chinese flavoring in it .

[lance]

Hi does anyone have expeirence of Siu Lim Tao and the 3 Battles kata used in Goju and south shaolin styles?

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk Paul , another thing I forgot to mention on my topic post reply to your topic post is that San Chien kata is the okinawans version of iron body training . Those okinawan martial artist in turn do weight training excercises that are similar to those southern chinese martial artist . There was a documentry program about the martial arts from all over the world , on the history channel , so I don ' t know if you saw it or not , but I ' ve seen it .
Very educational .

[Paul T England]

When comparing SNT and Sam Chien, people look at the stance or the outward movements but are th einternals not just the same.

The Chinese arts to me in genral are very subtle thus you don't see the obvious tension, breath etc.

Its all interesting :)

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Paul T England;1238550]When comparing SNT and Sam Chien, people look at the stance or the outward movements but are th einternals not just the same.

The Chinese arts to me in genral are very subtle thus you don't see the obvious tension, breath etc.

Its all interesting :)

Paul
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sam Chien and siu lim tao are two completely different worlds. Wing chun is quite unique evn in the context of southern systems. IMO.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=Paul T England;1238550]When comparing SNT and Sam Chien, people look at the stance or the outward movements but are th einternals not just the same.

The Chinese arts to me in genral are very subtle thus you don't see the obvious tension, breath etc.

Its all interesting :)

Paul
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sam Chien and siu lim tao are two completely different worlds. Wing chun is quite unique evn in the context of southern systems. IMO.

DO you think that at one point SLT was perhaps MORE like sam chien?

[Hendrik]

Slt was designed different then San chin since the beginning.


[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1238781]

DO you think that at one point SLT was perhaps MORE like sam chien?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1238781]

DO you think that at one point SLT was perhaps MORE like sam chien?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't think so-not Ip Man's slt anyway.

[YouKnowWho]

Slt was designed different then San chin since the beginning.

Hendrik,

Do you think WC guys should use YGKYM in fighting?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

Do you think WC guys should use YGKYM in fighting?

one must first know what is a WCK YGKYM, instead of define it as like it and speculate from there.


Slt has its own definition

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ8h4UMRFU8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DMQ8h4UMRFU8

[Ozzy Dave]

you think that at one point SLT was perhaps MORE like sam chien?

I certainly think this is a possibility, I personally do play SLT/SNT like San Jan sometimes with the use of various degrees of tension to condition the "structure".

I'm not saying its THE way to play the form but it is A way to do it that derives benefits.

Trouble with most WC/VT people IMO is they are too focused on arguing about what is THE way to do things.

Dave

[Hendrik]

The set define itself, from system to details .

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ8h4UMRFU8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DMQ8h4UMRFU8

Got nothing to do with WC/VT people.





I certainly think this is a possibility, I personally do play SLT/SNT like San Jan sometimes with the use of various degrees of tension to condition the "structure".

I'm not saying its THE way to play the form but it is A way to do it that derives benefits.

Trouble with most WC/VT people IMO is they are too focused on arguing about what is THE way to do things.

Dave

[GlennR]

one must first know what is a WCK YGKYM, instead of define it as like it and speculate from there.


Slt has its own definition

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ8h4UMRFU8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DMQ8h4UMRFU8

Here , this will help you

http://www.downvids.net/wing-chun-stance-with-sigung-chu-shong-tin-179432.html

[Ozzy Dave]

Got nothing to do with WC/VT people.

I don’t view WC/VT as you do.

Specifically, I don’t view WC/VT as something particularly unique, a niche certainly but not unique - it wasn’t developed in a vacuum after all.

There are a few systems from the same region (Guangdong / Southern Fujian) which behave combatively in a similar fashion to WC/VT (high horse, close technique), though the training methodologies vary they are likely related in evolutionary terms.

Therefore, I do see relevance in exploring related methodologies to train a similar set of attributes and if viable cross training those methodologies.

Dave

[LoneTiger108]

Here , this will help you

http://www.downvids.net/wing-chun-stance-with-sigung-chu-shong-tin-179432.html

Wah! Who recognizes anyone here other than Chu Shong Tin??

FWIW This is basic alignment stuffs and CST is one of the only guys I have seen online who actually gives hands on instruction like this... as awkward as it looks sometimes lol!

[LoneTiger108]

And with relation to Shotokans Sanchin... I see dead people! :D

http://youtu.be/u9iqsfIbwLQ

[sanjuro_ronin]

And with relation to Shotokans Sanchin... I see dead people! :D

http://youtu.be/u9iqsfIbwLQ

Shotokan has no sanchin...

[guy b.]

Shotokan has no sanchin...

Lol, by shotokan he must have meant "karate"

[Hendrik]

It is beyond who's view.

It is what Wck is. It is not the generalization speculation of high horse, close technics.....etc.

It is the body structure, power zone, momentum, timing all has to work as one piece and making sense. Not an explanation but all these things has to work and support each others in the same time

If one doesn't practice according to the wck common denominator as in the following clip. How is it Wck? How is it going to work fully?


http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=R3keW8Sc9t8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DR3keW8Sc9t8


The moment one perform Wck tan sau as karate or white crane side outward block, that no longer Wck because it is never intended for it to work that way. And in fact it doesn't work properly to produce expected result.



I don’t view WC/VT as you do.

Specifically, I don’t view WC/VT as something particularly unique, a niche certainly but not unique - it wasn’t developed in a vacuum after all.

There are a few systems from the same region (Guangdong / Southern Fujian) which behave combatively in a similar fashion to WC/VT (high horse, close technique), though the training methodologies vary they are likely related in evolutionary terms.

Therefore, I do see relevance in exploring related methodologies to train a similar set of attributes and if viable cross training those methodologies.

Dave

[sanjuro_ronin]

WC can't be understood or explained WITHOUT DOING what it was designed for:
FIGHTING.
Period.

[guy b.]

WC can't be understood or explained WITHOUT DOING what it was designed for:
FIGHTING.
Period.

With respect, jumping right into fighting without understanding will not lead to understanding of wing chun. You might cobble together something that works, but what are the chances of your recreating wing chun from nothing?

[sanjuro_ronin]

With respect, jumping right into fighting without understanding will not lead to understanding of wing chun. You might cobble together something that works, but what are the chances of your recreating wing chun from nothing?

Who said anything about "jumping in"?
That said, it doesn't seem to hurt pretty much ALL the full contact Ma out there...
Fighting systems that are oriented towards full-contact/full-resistance tend to put people "sparring" as hard as THEY can as soon as they can and the results tend to be pretty good.

[guy b.]

Who said anything about "jumping in"?

Common practice in wing chun. Why do you think nobody agrees?



That said, it doesn't seem to hurt pretty much ALL the full contact Ma out there...
Fighting systems that are oriented towards full-contact/full-resistance tend to put people "sparring" as hard as THEY can as soon as they can and the results tend to be pretty good.

These are natural systems that are not principle based. Wing chun is the opposite

[Ozzy Dave]

It is the body structure, power zone, momentum, timing all has to work as one piece and making sense. Not an explanation but all these things has to work and support each others in the same time

I'm sure practitioners of Bak Mei, Nan Tong Long, Tai Chor, Bai He, etc. would say the same thing



The moment one perform Wck tan sau as karate or white crane side outward block, that no longer Wck because it is never intended for it to work that way. And in fact it doesn't work properly to produce expected result.

I'm not saying these styles are synonymous or advocating to perform individual technique differently however, one will realise from cross training that a training method does not always equal application. For instance "sideways" techniques as you describe are usually effectively applied with frontal force when moving the body as "one piece".

Dave

[Ozzy Dave]

WC can't be understood or explained WITHOUT DOING what it was designed for:
FIGHTING.
Period.

Agree, IMO application combined with individual preference and ability is the source of martial development.

Dave

[Neeros]

Does Hung Ga's "Iron Wire" form more closely resemble San Chien than SLT?

Depends, in that Iron wire utilizes triple stretch it resembles SLT, not so much san zhan at all, however the type of force that is developed is quite different between all three.

Between the three SLT develops the softest expression of force, then San Zhan, however Iron Wire develops the hardest force out of any system.

Here is a video of Wuzuquan San Zhan from one of my Sitaigungs. Note how he is shaking with force yet his muscles are not being tensed, he stays very relaxed, not utilizing dynamic tension like many do today.

San Zhan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwgTclTsQHc)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Common practice in wing chun. Why do you think nobody agrees?




These are natural systems that are not principle based. Wing chun is the opposite

That's not a selling point if you compare "track records".

[MightyB]

Isshin Ryu's Sanchin as performed by the founder of Isshin Ryu Karate, Tatsuo Shimabuku.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7ZWvvHS8bo

[Vajramusti]

Isshin Ryu's Sanchin as performed by the founder of Isshin Ryu Karate, Tatsuo Shimabuku.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7ZWvvHS8bo
--------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks. The winchun
yee gee kim yeung ma is quite different. I respect sensei Shimbabuku's work

[MightyB]

This vid's quite well produced. Showing the Chow Ga Southern Mantis version.


http://youtu.be/PJ1Z8uab1UY

[dante-s]

I read this saam chien info on Planet Ving Wing Tsun FB page (https://www.facebook.com/planetvingwingtsun). Also has video demo which do not look to work like Wing Chun.

"yeah check this this out, another of kenneth lin xiang fuk's seniors speak on lin's modified 5 Ancestor Sam Chien history.

Sanjaya Payangka

Lower sam chien was created by The Great Grand Master Kwee King Yang himself and still being practiced at Surabaya, Indonesia by his students untill now.. He modified the basic samchien from Wu Zu Quan after he met Tjia Pun Jiao a Grand Master from China when he was around 50 y.o.. Although his sam chien is similar to ngo cho kun, the use and power is totally different..

See lin's claimed sole inheritor of black flag bs demostrate here. i dont see Wing Chun.
Shifu Thio Tek Kwie (http://youtu.be/9z2tb2V_3zc)"

I am agree that I do not see any Wing Chun there. Then post from there is Shaolin Boxer share video demo how Kenneth Salim mixing up Saam Chien with Ip Man style Cham Kui form use to be taught in UK I think.

"Secret eng chun form or recent ancestor system mixed with wing chun , research proves its a money spinner and theres only one winner
Sinking Bridge Form (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yumTpoYirao&feature=share&list=PLCE70E6D1609E3E20&index=12)"

Lin Salim very disregard teachings of Ip Man and Kwee King Yang to mixing his personel ideas to sell to customer claim to be legit, but he only having 8 classes in Chung Che Man Vikoga Wing Chun + only few month of Ng Cho Kune Saam Chien. How is he become grand master after 8 lessons + few month of Saam Chien study with Thio Tek Kwie? Unsure how he to be qualify as a GM of anything. What do u think?

Here is a vid from a elder of Kwee King Yangs 18 Lohan Hand explain there is no WC in their teaching only some one add after.
A Tribute To GM Kwee King Yang of the 18 lohan Hand system (http://youtu.be/D4-bA61tz-U)

This blog also explain elder connection info and support that video. http://protectingrealshaolin.wordpress.com (http://protectingrealshaolin.wordpress.com/2013/11/15/uncovering-the-lies-behind-the-black-flag-of-kenneth-lin/) but what to believe?