Anyone here into Reptiles need help ID this reptile?

[KungFubar]

We have a lot of geckos here in florida some are pretty big up to 6 inches long. Today I noticed a rather large one climbing up the screened lanai? I was alarmed at its size as I had never seen a reptile like that wild in my backyard before. I realized its not a gecko it looks like some kind of monitor lizard but I cant tell what kind maybe one of you will know right away? Another thing I can say is it was extremely fast and then as I got closer he went into a hole in the ground, actually a crevace in the concrete slab and went under the slab.

[GoldenBrain]

I think that's a cuban brown anole. If you see it expanding a large red throat display then that'd help with the identification.

[Scott R. Brown]

It's a lizard!!

[mickey]

Greetings,

GoldenBrain,

I did a search on the net for the Cuban brown anole and I did not find one with similar markings nor with the strong legs this lizard has. I went to u tube and found a posting for the Cuban brown anole and I found nothing consistent with what KungFubar. Take a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP7kLh_N56s

I did notice in my search on monitor lizards that there are quite a few varieties have that ringed pattern, especially on the tail. The monitors are known to move with great speed. The Komodo dragons can move up to 25mph. Since they are known carnivores, you may want to see if it eats meat. Check out the google images.


mickey

[Lucas]

it may be a southern fence lizard. a good look at its belly could help to identify as many of these lizards have blue under their necks or on their bellies.

the fence lizards range from grey to brown, and have stripes. some dont have as pronounced of stripes but there is generally a zig zag patter, sort of like what your friend has going on. of course with most repitles, the colors and patterns will depend on the habitat, since these things are directly related to camoflage. 6-7 inches for an adult. like their namesake, they are often found climbing fences, screens, or just scavenging around looking for bugs, just like in your picture.

http://www.miriameaglemon.com/photo_gallery/Reptiles/Reptile%20Images/P5260526%20Western%20Fence%20Lizard.jpg

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6125/5940560363_ba619f7fb5_z.jpg

[KungFubar]

it may be a southern fence lizard. a good look at its belly could help to identify as many of these lizards have blue under their necks or on their bellies.

the fence lizards range from grey to brown, and have stripes. some dont have as pronounced of stripes but there is generally a zig zag patter, sort of like what your friend has going on. 6-7 inches for an adult. like their namesake, they are often found climbing fences, screens, or just scavenging around looking for bugs, just like in your picture.

http://www.miriameaglemon.com/photo_gallery/Reptiles/Reptile%20Images/P5260526%20Western%20Fence%20Lizard.jpg

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6125/5940560363_ba619f7fb5_z.jpg

thanks for all the research, I have looked for about 2 hours today havent concluded anything. THe fence lizard should be it but it isnt because it doesnt ahve the rings on tail or bars on body plus the fence lizard looks like its kinda a horned thing going on its head, this lizard is smooth.

I wonder if its a Nile Monitor an invasive species.......

[Jimbo]

It could be a baby Nile monitor lizard.

[Lucas]

i see what you mean about the horn thing.

good call. it very well could be one of these bad boys. (or girls) ;)

http://mongabay.com/images/botswana/nile_monitor.gif

[mickey]

Greetings,

KungFubar, I think you are close. In my book it is definitely some kind of monitor lizard. I did look at photos of the Nile monitor lizard. It's head is a little too pointy. Before you mentioned that lizard I was going to get back to you with a longshot: the white mouth monitor lizard that lives in the Kalahari Desert of Africa.

It seems that you desperately WANT to believe that it is a fence lizard. I can understand that. It is better for the nerves. My interest in this thread was your alarm. You recognized that lizard as aberrant. I went with that in my research. Now, Nile monitors have been allowed to proliferate in your area. It would not surprise me if someone unleashed a few white mouth monitors as well. With the white mouth monitor the rings go up the body as in your photo. Do a search on google images.

Good Luck with This


mickey

[GoldenBrain]

Greetings,

GoldenBrain,

I did a search on the net for the Cuban brown anole and I did not find one with similar markings nor with the strong legs this lizard has. I went to u tube and found a posting for the Cuban brown anole and I found nothing consistent with what KungFubar. Take a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP7kLh_N56s

I did notice in my search on monitor lizards that there are quite a few varieties have that ringed pattern, especially on the tail. The monitors are known to move with great speed. The Komodo dragons can move up to 25mph. Since they are known carnivores, you may want to see if it eats meat. Check out the google images.

mickey

Hey mickey! I think you're right on the money. I totally missed this one but in my defense I was looking at the pictures on my iPhone. Looking at them now on my laptop I can see the markings much better and Cuban Brown Anole is way off.

I'm no reptile expert so I will happily defer to others more knowledgable. As for the monitor lizards being released, it's just a real shame. I understand they have become quite a problem though I never saw one in the 8 years I lived in FL.

Edit: I've been looking through tons of photos and I am going with the Nile Monitor as Jimbo suggested. One thing that is very apparent is that those suckers get huge so I suggest KungFubar make a belt out of that thing now before it eats somebodies dog.

[KungFubar]

Im convinced its a monitor lizard but I am not satisfied that it is any we have proposed?

IMO The closest was the Nile but Im only 40% sure that is what it is. I looked at the white mouth one but I didnt get that "aha" feeling.

I saw him again. He recognized me from 30 yards and just glared at me defiantly.

Tomorrow I will try to get a close up with the telephoto. Thats a film camera though so there will be delay in posting.

Also I plan to wait by his hole, get as close as possible and then we he least expects it, FOOM! nail him with the limited telephoto zoom feature on my dads kodak digital to capture his spirt onto my computer. I want to get a photo of his toungue, if it is forked that is DNA positive that he is a monitor lizard. And if I can get a shot of his underbelly that would yield more information as to his origins.

I know in birds, juvenilles can look much differnt than adults so maybe he is a juvenille. I would estimate his total length to be about 28 to 30"

Ill keep searching but.... I just want to know what Im dealing with here. I understand monitor lizards harbor flesh eating bacteria in their mouth. Komodo dragons bite a prey and then let it go. In 3 days its dead from the bacteria. It goes from 100% health to dead in 2 to 3 days. Then they start feasting on the carcass like its thanksgiving time.

[mickey]

KungFubar,

Check this out:

http://www.myfwc.com/media/2380549/Tegu-brochure.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Black_and_White_Tegu.jpg


They are close to the monitor lizard and they have a slightly smaller head like in your picture.



mickey

[SoCo KungFu]

Its just a Florida Scrub Lizard.

[KungFubar]

KungFubar,

Check this out:

http://www.myfwc.com/media/2380549/Tegu-brochure.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Black_and_White_Tegu.jpg


They are close to the monitor lizard and they have a slightly smaller head like in your picture.



mickey

ya it definitely has the banding going on

[SoCo KungFu]

ya it definitely has the banding going on

No it not a tegu. I keep Tegus, they're nothing alike. Its a Sceloporus. Either a FL scrub or southern fence.

[KungFubar]

No it not a tegu. I keep Tegus, they're nothing alike. Its a Sceloporus. Either a FL scrub or southern fence.

It doesnt match the photos of Tegu, Scrub or Fence lizards. My neighbor seems to have information that it is a cross breed of a native lizard and an invasive lizard like the nile monitor and thats why I cant find a match.

Im going to submit to some wildlife people. Thanks for all the replies.

[mickey]

Greetings KungFubar,

Please give us an update when you find out for sure. I want to know.

mickey

[KungFubar]

Greetings KungFubar,

Please give us an update when you find out for sure. I want to know.

mickey

ok no problem.

[SoCo KungFu]

So everyone here, including me, was wrong on this one. I emailed the local herpetologist who happens to be a drinking buddy and he said its a spiny tailed iguana. Its very young though. I've never seen one myself in person. That young it threw me off because as adults they can look quite different. They lose a lot of their distinctive markings and form that typical spined keel you normally think of with iguanas.

The next question though is, where in FL did you find this? You should probably report this because from best I've read in the past, these iguanas compete with green iguanas for habitat. I've heard they can't establish in places where the green iguanas have. Could be wrong though. But some local wildlife management would likely be grateful for the info if you're not in one of the established locations for these.

[KungFubar]

So everyone here, including me, was wrong on this one. I emailed the local herpetologist who happens to be a drinking buddy and he said its a spiny tailed iguana. Its very young though. I've never seen one myself in person. That young it threw me off because as adults they can look quite different. They lose a lot of their distinctive markings and form that typical spined keel you normally think of with iguanas.

The next question though is, where in FL did you find this? You should probably report this because from best I've read in the past, these iguanas compete with green iguanas for habitat. I've heard they can't establish in places where the green iguanas have. Could be wrong though. But some local wildlife management would likely be grateful for the info if you're not in one of the established locations for these.

Pattern seems to match the spiny tail iguana but what about the crest. This lizard has no crest, is that because it is young and then later it will get the crest?

[Syn7]

Are they insanely invasive like their green friends?



I hear that in PR you can't walk 3 feet w/o stepping on one.

[KungFubar]

Are they insanely invasive like their green friends?



I hear that in PR you can't walk 3 feet w/o stepping on one.

Ive lived here 10 years and never saw any kind of lizard except the little geckos that dart around the garden. So when I saw this individual, it was highly unusual and interesting to me.

[Syn7]

Well it's gonna get a hell of a lot bigger lol...

[KungFubar]

Well it's gonna get a hell of a lot bigger lol...

i dont mind as long as they arent dangerous to people or start any trouble around here. Kinda gives the backyard a wild kind of vibe. Me likey! so um..... how big do they get??

[Syn7]

Dunno, but if the rival their green cuzzies.... well... they can get pretty big.

http://www.greenigsociety.org/jpg/iguana_nirvana.jpg
Green(common) iguana^^^


A quick google search shows me pics that tell me they do get quite large, but I'm no lizard expert and I can't even be sure that the pics I saw are actually what you have living in your yard.

What I can say is that if they are as invasive as the greens, this could be the start of a problem.


Here's the wiki, for what it's worth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctenosaura


The species range in size (total length, including the tail) from about 12.5 centimetres (4.9 in) to well over 1 metre (39 in). The distinctive feature of this genus is the presence of enlarged, spiny scales on the tail.

[KungFubar]

Dunno, but if the rival their green cuzzies.... well... they can get pretty big.

http://www.greenigsociety.org/jpg/iguana_nirvana.jpg
Green(common) iguana^^^


A quick google search shows me pics that tell me they do get quite large, but I'm no lizard expert and I can't even be sure that the pics I saw are actually what you have living in your yard.

What I can say is that if they are as invasive as the greens, this could be the start of a problem.


Here's the wiki, for what it's worth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ctenosaura

They get pretty big.... I wonder if they taste like chicken?:D

[Syn7]

Everything tastes like chicken... act like you know....!!! :p

[KungFubar]

I think you are right, that may be it, after reading your wiki link. It says.

Speed

The world record sprint speed for lizards (21.5 miles/h or 34.6 km/h) was attained by the Costa Rican spiny-tailed iguana (Ctenosaura similis).[1][2]

So it is the fastest lizard in the world as I observed and reported here with exclamation in the opening post.

[Syn7]

lol, squirrely lil *******s!!!

[mickey]

Greetings,

Thank you for getting back to us, KungFubar, with the info.

It makes me wonder if it was somebody's pet, given it's origin


mickey

[KungFubar]

Greetings,

Thank you for getting back to us, KungFubar, with the info.

It makes me wonder if it was somebody's pet, given it's origin


mickey

Im still only 80% sure that is it because I didnt see any crest on the head or spines on the tail of the one who resides in my back garden, we made eye contact with each other again today.

What does match is the rings on the tail, the bars on the body, the color, the muscularity, and the speed.

[mickey]

This eye contact thing....

If it was a pet, do you think it is waiting for you to feed it? It seems dependent.

Ever consider catching it? Just put a lure in a large duffle bag.


mickey

[Syn7]

Many reptiles look quite different when they are young.

[KungFubar]

Ill try to get some better photos. What would I lure him with? Im thinking fishing pole, cast something out there without any hooks in it and just bait him along into range of my camera for a close up. Maybe a chunk of rotting meat or something. IDK.

[Syn7]

Maybe one of those one way rat traps. Just put something tasty in there and wait for him to wander in. Of course you will prolly catch all sorts of creatures that eat similar foods, but maybe you'll get lucky. Dragging bait across your lawn will prolly take years. Best to just set your trap and check periodically.

As for the bait...


Ctenosaurs are generally omnivorous, feeding on fruits, flowers, foliage, and small animals.

A lil research will prolly find you the best bait.

[KungFubar]

Maybe one of those one way rat traps. Just put something tasty in there and wait for him to wander in. Of course you will prolly catch all sorts of creatures that eat similar foods, but maybe you'll get lucky. Dragging bait across your lawn will prolly take years. Best to just set your trap and check periodically.

As for the bait...



A lil research will prolly find you the best bait.

he looks like a predator and he is fast and muscular, Im going to use a grasshopper tied to monofilament, i dont have a trap like that. I may film the whole thing and post to youtube. This is starting to get time consuming I may have to check myself.

[mickey]

Okay okay okay!!

You don't have to trap it. :)

You can just peacefully coexist.


mickey

[GoldenBrain]

he looks like a predator and he is fast and muscular, Im going to use a grasshopper tied to monofilament, i dont have a trap like that. I may film the whole thing and post to youtube. This is starting to get time consuming I may have to check myself.

Try a plate of fruit and veggies. I think that's what iguanas eat most. If it's a monitor then I'd bet on it being a meat eater. Also, thanks for getting back to us and definitely keep us posted. This has been an interesting thread.

[Syn7]

Well if it's an invasive species, you should trap it and turn it in to Control.


Those rat traps are like 10 bucks. It's just a box with a door. Nobody gets hurt. If it's native, you can just take pics and let it go. Also it will take up very lil time. You bait the trap then periodically check and release any unintended captures. No harm, no foul.


Besides, it all sounds kinda fun to me.

[KungFubar]

Well if it's an invasive species, you should trap it and turn it in to Control.


Those rat traps are like 10 bucks. It's just a box with a door. Nobody gets hurt. If it's native, you can just take pics and let it go. Also it will take up very lil time. You bait the trap then periodically check and release any unintended captures. No harm, no foul.


Besides, it all sounds kinda fun to me.

what if its an endangered protective species and it turns out its a felony to possess one. Possession of certain reptiles is a felony. I actually knew a guy who got arrested for illegal possession of certain reptiles and he was a felon and couldnt apply to be a US marshall which he wanted to do since he was 10 years old. Also the interesting thing I found out as a side note, the wildlife officers dont need any warrant to come into your house and search your stuff. Just saying. Probably is someones pet escaped but still it was interesting tidbit to mention.

[bawang]

you should eat it.

[Syn7]

Yeah... but there is a really easy way around this. You show the pic to Control and ask if it's endangered or invasive. Depending on the answer, you go from there.

It's also worth noting that unless your friend knowingly captured or bought an endangered reptile, whoever actually pressed charges was a massive douchebag and most likely the exception to the rule.

There are some fish you can't kill and keep. But if you are fishing for salmon and pull up something rare and conservation officers see this, you cannot be charged. They have to show you were trying to catch that fish. It's like when crabbing... just netting the lil guys is not against the law. Keeping and/or killing them is. Anything less is simply unreasonable and ridiculous.


I'm just sayin... you can torment and drag a grasshopper across your lawn all day and prolly never see a thing. Or you can bait a trap and walk away.


And if your friend did capture and keep an animal he did not properly identify, he kinda got what he had coming. Ignorance is not an excuse, but intent is relevant. I mean... do we really want people who couldn't be bothered to do their homework being given a gun and sent off to catch fugitives and stuff?

[GoldenBrain]

Here's a decent bit of info... http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/in528

At this point I definitely agree with SoCo's herpetologist friend that it's a spiny tailed iguana. I think it's specifically a black spiny tailed iguana. In the info page I linked above they mention that the black spiny tailed species has reduced dorsal spines. If you scroll down the page it also mentions that iguanas can be captured and removed from private property at any time without special permits so no worries there.

Or, you could invite bawang over to show you how to cook that bad boy up.

Edit: From the link above... See Figure 5. Female black spiny-tailed iguana (Ctenosaura similes).
Credit: W. H. Kern, Jr., University of Florida, Ft. Lauderdale

Also see table 1. Preferred Iguana Food Plants. Just in case you want to trap it.

[Syn7]

bawang will kill it with the wombat stare. They will lock gazes and bawang will steal it's chi and then feast on the carcass to gain the strength of ten ronnie colemans!

[KungFubar]

I now am now 95% sure it is a female black spiny tailed iguana due to its supreme speed. Ive now read that the females do not have the crest or the spines like the males. If I did trap it I would only do so so I could let it go out in the wild areas so nobody would report him and he would be killed. I probably will let him alone and let him live there in my yard. Actually his hole is not on my property so i cannot protect him there.

This is a photo of one from another website.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/LyraEDISServlet?command=getScreenImage&oid=14884635

[mickey]

Greetings,

So she is a female.

Now I understand......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a28kY1-s-Vc



mickey

[Syn7]

I understand the desire to preserve life and I applaud the whole catch and release attitude.... BUT invasive species can be absolutely devastating. I dunno if they are or not, but if they are..... you save the lives of local species by eradicating populations that would displace the natives.

[KungFubar]

If we were talking about people it would be racist and discriminatory but because we are talking about lizards, its ok. Many parallels could be drawn and often are. But I am all about life and equal opportunity and let natural selection work it out. Whether its people or non people.

this sort of thing has been going on for they say millions of years. one species rises, one falls wash rinse repeat, the circle of life. Who am I to say who lives and who dies.

I love life, all life. They can work it out for themselves. Eventually there will be some kind of stasis. I admit my viewpoint may be naive as I do not know the ramifications of invasive species but what can really happen? There are plenty of hawks and kits that love to eat lizards. I say let mother nature work it out, its always better than when people try to meddle with it.

Same thing when talking about saving some spoted snail that lives in some obscure part of the globe. It doesnt matter, species die, new species come into existence, it happens all the time, happened for millions of years before the few decades anyone ever even cared about it, and it will happen millions if not trillions and infinite years after we are gone, and when our star implodes it will still be happening some other solar system. If we are here by mathematical probability and the whole thing is such, then there is 100% certainty given time is infinite that it has happend, is happening and will happen again.

Ok emotional discharge finished. Carry on.

[KungFubar]

Ok, I have an update on the lizard. We have authoritative confirmation.

I just got my first official response from the Florida Wildlife people here it is.




"The lizard in the photo is a black spiny-tailed iguana (Ctenosaura similis), an introduced species.

Kevin M. Enge

Associate Research Scientist

Reptile and Amphibian Research Subsection

Fish and Wildlife Research Institute

Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission

1105 SW Williston Road

Gainesville, FL 32601-9044"

[Syn7]

If we were talking about people it would be racist and discriminatory but because we are talking about lizards, its ok. Many parallels could be drawn and often are. But I am all about life and equal opportunity and let natural selection work it out. Whether its people or non people.

this sort of thing has been going on for they say millions of years. one species rises, one falls wash rinse repeat, the circle of life. Who am I to say who lives and who dies.

I love life, all life. They can work it out for themselves. Eventually there will be some kind of stasis. I admit my viewpoint may be naive as I do not know the ramifications of invasive species but what can really happen? There are plenty of hawks and kits that love to eat lizards. I say let mother nature work it out, its always better than when people try to meddle with it.

Same thing when talking about saving some spoted snail that lives in some obscure part of the globe. It doesnt matter, species die, new species come into existence, it happens all the time, happened for millions of years before the few decades anyone ever even cared about it, and it will happen millions if not trillions and infinite years after we are gone, and when our star implodes it will still be happening some other solar system. If we are here by mathematical probability and the whole thing is such, then there is 100% certainty given time is infinite that it has happend, is happening and will happen again.

Ok emotional discharge finished. Carry on.

Are you calling me a lizardracist? :D I can't believe you just pulled the race card. Ok lemme demolish that!

Look, if you wanna catch it and send it back to it's homeland, great.

And you make a great point, but I disagree with your conclusions. If a race of humans comes to your land and starts killing off your people.... you have every right to grind them into the dust... period. There is a huge diff between peaceful coexistence and displacement. When you say that we have been migrating and displacing eachother(human or animal) for millions of years... you sir are correct. Just one thing you left out. ANd this part is very important. The timeline. It's like climate change. Yeah sure we are at the end of a cycle and yeah we are moving thru the galaxy in a manner which causes climate change. No doubt. But here's the kicker... none of that **** is supposed to happen over short periods of time. When it does, the net benefits are in the negative. EVERY SINGLE TIME. There is a reason why natural change is slow.

[Syn7]

Ok, I have an update on the lizard. We have authoritative confirmation.

I just got my first official response from the Florida Wildlife people here it is.




"The lizard in the photo is a black spiny-tailed iguana (Ctenosaura similis), an introduced species.

Kevin M. Enge

Associate Research Scientist

Reptile and Amphibian Research Subsection

Fish and Wildlife Research Institute

Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission

1105 SW Williston Road

Gainesville, FL 32601-9044"


Invasive or no? Did you even ask?

[mickey]

Greetings,

I think the greatest mistake down in Florida with the damage to the ecosystem caused by the monitor/lizards is the thinking that we are not a part of that ecosystem. bawang is absolutely right about eating those monitors. If they can put alligator tails in a can, why not monitor tails? Doing so will help maintain a certain balance.

Whaddihya think?


mckey

[KungFubar]

Invasive or no? Did you even ask?

he said in the email that it is an "introduced" species. so I wrote him back and asked him if that is the same as "invasive". I am waiting for his reply.

Now on to your lizardcism. A few post back you advised me to leave a little fruit snack for this lizard, now in this post he is public enemy number one, tantamount to armed invaders slaughering and killing "our people" and therefoe these lizrds should be destroyed to "dust" just as enemies invading our land kiling our people should be. This is not consistent . Who are they killing that can be equated to "our people"? Tread lightly as the parallels become closer and closer to home.

[KungFubar]

Greetings,

I think the greatest mistake down in Florida with the damage to the ecosystem caused by the monitor/lizards is the thinking that we are not a part of that ecosystem. bawang is absolutely right about eating those monitors. If they can put alligator tails in a can, why not monitor tails? Doing so will help maintain a certain balance.

Whaddihya think?


mckey

it was my idea to eat them. Im always looking for inexpensive protein sources
http://www.trippyfood.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/123-iguana-04.jpg

[Syn7]

he said in the email that it is an "introduced" species. so I wrote him back and asked him if that is the same as "invasive". I am waiting for his reply.

Now on to your lizardcism. A few post back you advised me to leave a little fruit snack for this lizard, now in this post he is public enemy number one, tantamount to armed invaders slaughering and killing "our people" and therefoe these lizrds should be destroyed to "dust" just as enemies invading our land kiling our people should be. This is not consistent . Who are they killing that can be equated to "our people"? Tread lightly as the parallels become closer and closer to home.

I never said feed it fruit. I said bait a trap. And the purpose was to get a closer look. I believe I also said, and if I didn't I should have, that you should turn it in to Control.


I love the parallel and Natives had every right to fight off the euro invaders. At this point it's not going to happen, so the point is moot... but they still had every right to try and force "us" off their land. We came and we did not peacefully coexist. So yeah, defense is always valid when attacked. And invasive species LITERALLY attack the locals they are in competition with. Before humans moved around so fast, it took eons for a species to migrate across the globe, now they do it in fruit crates. Know the difference. There is being kind to animals and then there is being irresponsible. If you wanna catch and release, cool. Shipping an invasive lizard back home is NOT the same as saying we should deport mexicans, for example. IMO most immigrants in the US add to the culture and benefit us in the long run. Again... know the difference. They come to coexist, not eradicate Americans.

[KungFubar]

I never said feed it fruit. I said bait a trap. And the purpose was to get a closer look. I believe I also said, and if I didn't I should have, that you should turn it in to Control.


I love the parallel and Natives had every right to fight off the euro invaders. At this point it's not going to happen, so the point is moot... but they still had every right to try and force "us" off their land. We came and we did not peacefully coexist. So yeah, defense is always valid when attacked. And invasive species LITERALLY attack the locals they are in competition with. Before humans moved around so fast, it took eons for a species to migrate across the globe, now they do it in fruit crates. Know the difference. There is being kind to animals and then there is being irresponsible. If you wanna catch and release, cool. Shipping an invasive lizard back home is NOT the same as saying we should deport mexicans, for example. IMO most immigrants in the US add to the culture and benefit us in the long run. Again... know the difference. They come to coexist, not eradicate Americans.

somoene said bait it with fruit, it may not have been you. in any case all that is fine, agreeable and understood, the rub is this:

how are these fruit eating iguanas comparable to armed invaders that kill? They arent killing our people are they? Why dont you count the iguanas as adding to culture like the immigrants they are. I mean this IS america isnt it? Have the iguanas come here to erradicate americans? Did they even choose to come here? They are here because people brought them here as pets. and now they are here through no fault of their own and certainly not through any intention to erradicate Americans.

What is so bad about these Iguanas that cant be said about immigrants or the species that are already here?

[KungFubar]

Heres another update in response to my follow up questions to the wildlife people.

"I’ve attached a photo of an adult male and a paper that gives more information. Yours is an immature animal that was probably born last year. They typically don’t eat carrion, so the mouth bacteria are not as bad as for monitors. Adults are primarily vegetarians. It is illegal to relocate it, so if you trap it, it should be killed. They will definitely bite hard, so be careful. An invasive species is an introduced species that has negative ecological, economic, or public health impacts. Spinytail iguanas are considered invasive. If you send me your address, I can determine if this is a significant sighting and warrants reporting. Thanks.



Kevin Enge

Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission"

[Syn7]

somoene said bait it with fruit, it may not have been you. in any case all that is fine, agreeable and understood, the rub is this:

how are these fruit eating iguanas comparable to armed invaders that kill? They arent killing our people are they? Why dont you count the iguanas as adding to culture like the immigrants they are. I mean this IS america isnt it? Have the iguanas come here to erradicate americans? Did they even choose to come here? They are here because people brought them here as pets. and now they are here through no fault of their own and certainly not through any intention to erradicate Americans.

What is so bad about these Iguanas that cant be said about immigrants or the species that are already here?

Ok so without giving you a brief history on evolutionary biology and eco management... it's like this:

It takes a LONG time for any animal to develop a natural defense to any predator. When a predator is introduced to an ecosystem too fast it causes an imbalance. This imbalance affects us all. So yes, an invasive species is actually quite similar to an armed invader, whether they are eating the young, tearing through the food source too fast or just straight up killing them. There are many more, but it takes too long to get into all that. It is straight up irresponsible and WRONG to introduce an invasive species to a system that has little to no time to properly adapt. PERIOD. Your lack of foresight is dangerous. This is a classic example of why I call myself progressive but not a "liberal". If it wasn't for people like drake, people like you would get run through in a heartbeat.


Listen to your local wildlife rep. he knows what he's talking about.

[KungFubar]

Ok so without giving you a brief history on evolutionary biology and eco management... it's like this:

It takes a LONG time for any animal to develop a natural defense to any predator. When a predator is introduced to an ecosystem too fast it causes an imbalance. This imbalance affects us all. So yes, an invasive species is actually quite similar to an armed invader, whether they are eating the young, tearing through the food source too fast or just straight up killing them. There are many more, but it takes too long to get into all that. It is straight up irresponsible and WRONG to introduce an invasive species to a system that has little to no time to properly adapt. PERIOD. Your lack of foresight is dangerous. This is a classic example of why I call myself progressive but not a "liberal". If it wasn't for people like drake, people like you would get run through in a heartbeat.


Listen to your local wildlife rep. he knows what he's talking about.

why is this on me? I only observed this cool animal in my backyard. Now Im expected to be its executioner. Now people want to run me through? I have no evidence showing this animal is harmful to anyone. I suspect they just want to keep the traditional wildlife and try to keep it from changing simply for tourism sake. Sorry thats not good enough. People need to stop trying to control everything especially for the sake of money. So do you have any examples why this animal is bad for human beings in florida?

[Syn7]

It's called responsibility. We all have the same responsibilities in this respect. You have the opportunity to help mitigate damage to your community. You don't have to kill it. There are tons of options. It's just that pretending it's either not a problem or simply not your problem is irresponsible...


And newsflash, there are unpleasant people out there that would do you harm. There are also relatively decent people who have to do somewhat unpalatable things in order to keep that from happening. Don't take your idealism too far, man. Stay grounded in reality. Don't rest on your privileged laurels.


Done....

[KungFubar]

It's called responsibility. We all have the same responsibilities in this respect. You have the opportunity to help mitigate damage to your community. You don't have to kill it. There are tons of options. It's just that pretending it's either not a problem or simply not your problem is irresponsible...


And newsflash, there are unpleasant people out there that would do you harm. There are also relatively decent people who have to do somewhat unpalatable things in order to keep that from happening. Don't take your idealism too far, man. Stay grounded in reality. Don't rest on your privileged laurels.


Done....

you simply refuse to answer my questions. Why? Do the answers not support your position?

[Syn7]

You are asking me to explain basic evolutionary principles. Do your own homework or bury your head in the sand, your call... I guess...

[KungFubar]

You are asking me to explain basic evolutionary principles. Do your own homework or bury your head in the sand, your call... I guess...

You wish I was asking you to explain something too complex for a forum post but I am not. I am asking for a few simple examples of what negative consequences this lizard creates in our environment.

You have an opinion. Please support it. Otherwise.. well you know how that short rhyme goes. heheh

Should I do homework to support YOUR opinion? I also asked the wildlife guy the same question I asked you. I will post it and see how it compares to yours.

[Syn7]

I did tell you what the negative consequences were. And your local conservation officer told you the same thing. What exactly are you looking for? A peer reviewed series of studies explaining the negative consequences of introducing invasive species to your local ecosystem? You have google. I gave you the facts. It's quite clear you have already made up your mind.

[Syn7]

and yes what you are asking is complex. If you knew what you were talking about you would understand that. There is a reason why we do what we can to prevent these things that are our fault. It takes many MANY generations to build up natural defences to invasive species. If you want to be a true humanitarian, buy this thing a first class ticket home where it can multiply and be fruitful amongst it's own and not screw it's ecosystem.

[GoldenBrain]

somoene said bait it with fruit, it may not have been you.

I was the one that said bait it with a fruits and veggies. It's mostly a herbivore but will eat small insects on occasions. I agree that it's an invasive species but unlike the monitor it's not one that directly competes with other lizards in FL since it eats mostly veggies. This is only my opinion. I understand your feelings about not harming this creature but humans did introduce it so it would be well within your moral compass to dispatch this fella if you felt the need. With that said I'd prolly leave it alone as well since I don't think fruit/veggie eating iguanas directly compete with the local wildlife. Again, that's only my opinion so I'd suggest you defer to the opinion of the wildlife expert you are corresponding with.

[mickey]

Well,

Humans eat fruits and vegetables. So, it competes with us.

Let us adorn it with a honied lemon-lime and pineapple glaze.

mickey

[SoCo KungFu]

Pattern seems to match the spiny tail iguana but what about the crest. This lizard has no crest, is that because it is young and then later it will get the crest?

Either its very young or female. Like most lizards, iguanas are sexually dimorphic.

[SoCo KungFu]

Are they insanely invasive like their green friends?



I hear that in PR you can't walk 3 feet w/o stepping on one.

They aren't as invasive as the greens. But they have a similar story. Like most crap in FL, they were brought in via pet trade. They don't get quite as big as the greens. But in general, herbivorous reptiles get bigger than carnivorous (the obvious exceptions being varanids and crocodiliads).

[SoCo KungFu]

You wish I was asking you to explain something too complex for a forum post but I am not. I am asking for a few simple examples of what negative consequences this lizard creates in our environment.

You have an opinion. Please support it. Otherwise.. well you know how that short rhyme goes. heheh

Should I do homework to support YOUR opinion? I also asked the wildlife guy the same question I asked you. I will post it and see how it compares to yours.

Destruction of agriculture (its herbivorous). Destruction of native plant life. Possible vector for pathogens to native fauna. Displacement of native species from natural habitat. Those are just a few related to this particular animal.

In a more broad sense of invasive species as a whole...

Destruction of property. Increased costs of land management and utilities. For example, American crayfish clog up sewage lines in France. Invasive crabs and crayfish form burrows in foreign territories that destroy land bordering the water line. This increases erosion of shoreline, destroys habitat for local species including spawning grounds for many economically important fish, and raises the cost of land maintenance thus increasing property taxes and such to manage upkeep.

Furthermore, they can either pray on things in ways which are out of balance with native species. This can lead to spikes in nuisance animals. For example, more mosquitoes. This lizard will dominate land that was once held by smaller native lizards. Iguanids don't eat bugs. But smaller carnivorous lizards do. This could potentially spike mosquito populations if such lizards establish in an area. More mosquitoes means more incidence of disease like west nile which increases health costs.

[SoCo KungFu]

You're not likely to lure this into a trap with bait. For one, foliage doesn't exactly carry smell like meat would. You're best bet would be the same as any other herp. Set out a large sheet of tin someplace in the yard that dogs, cats or children won't mess with. It would preferably be in an open spot a bit away from tree line that would provide alternate shelter. Herps use cover tins for shelter and to thermoregulate. Leave it alone for a couple weeks. Then start checking it before the sun gets too hot in the morning and at evening after temps go down. Mid day nothing will be under it because it will be too hot.

When you check it, stand on one end and lift the tin from the side opposing (lifting away from you side) to keep the tin between you and whatever is under it. You can use a rake or hoe if you're concerned. Reason is, it will attract all kinds of stuff in the yard, including any snakes that could be dangerous.

If you get it and really don't want to kill it, google a herp breeder in the area that does spiny tails. There are some in FL and they will pay a good price for a healthy wild one to have as a breeder to refresh their genetic diversity. A good breeder will take care of it, otherwise you're going to have to kill it.

[KungFubar]

Now that's a decent answer, thanks.

Now with this sheet of metal, what dimensions does it have to be and also, should I just lay it flat on the grass?

[Syn7]

Well I'm glad you like being spoon fed, but he didn't say anything you couldn't have found yourself in like 3 seconds as evidenced by this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasive_species

[SoCo KungFu]

Now that's a decent answer, thanks.

Now with this sheet of metal, what dimensions does it have to be and also, should I just lay it flat on the grass?

Big enough for the lizard with a 1.5 to 2ft or so to spare. I can't give you an exact answer because I don't know exactly how big it is. But roughly big enough to hide under with room to move. Yes, just lay it out on the grass. Unless you have a decent spot that's bare. If you cover grass, it will kill that spot. Really though, this probably won't work anyways. And by next year, it will be too big.

If you have a dog, it will have a better chance than you. Of course that means it (the iguana) will likely be killed.

[Syn7]

Do you think that if it was a pet that it will find a mate anyways? Prolly just live solo then die when it's ready anyways... no? I would be more likely to be concerned if I saw multiples. Know what I mean?

There's gotta be an established way to trap these guys reliably though? Or is it a sit on your porch with a weapon scenario?

We don't really have lizards here. Salamanders, but nothing much bigger. Lots of snakes though, but nothing threatening. And not hard to find and catch if you can get to em before they go to ground.

We have had a few of those snakehead sightings. Kind of alarming. They drained a whole pond because somebody said they saw one. Found a bunch of non natives, but nothing invasive. Mostly turtles. Pets, I imagine. But those snakeheads can be a serious problem. Mos def a kill on sight kind of deal. I hear they are a real problem on the east coast of the US.


I usually have a live and let live policy, but there is a red line. I will catch and release "undesirables" like spiders and stuff. I don't mind sharing my living space with the odd ant or whatever, but when you start finding them all up in your food and stuff, that's when it's time to take more aggressive action. Otherwise I don't really mind. I know how to share. But it's a whole different thing when it comes to non native invasives that are doing damage in one way or another.

[KungFubar]

I usually have a live and let live policy, but there is a red line. I will catch and release "undesirables" like spiders and stuff. I don't mind sharing my living space with the odd ant or whatever, but when you start finding them all up in your food and stuff, that's when it's time to take more aggressive action. Otherwise I don't really mind. I know how to share. But it's a whole different thing when it comes to non native invasives that are doing damage in one way or another.

we arent that far apart my friend.

[Syn7]

Word...

If you do manage to trap it, you should either hand it into Control or donate it to a reptile research facility. But don't sell it to some douche with 400 reptiles in his two bedroom apartment or even a reputable reptile dealer. Donate it to the cause. It's Florida, shouldn't be hard to find the right guy to hand it over to. Personally, I don't agree with the buying and selling of any animals.

[SoCo KungFu]

Do you think that if it was a pet that it will find a mate anyways? Prolly just live solo then die when it's ready anyways... no? I would be more likely to be concerned if I saw multiples. Know what I mean?

There's gotta be an established way to trap these guys reliably though? Or is it a sit on your porch with a weapon scenario?

We don't really have lizards here. Salamanders, but nothing much bigger. Lots of snakes though, but nothing threatening. And not hard to find and catch if you can get to em before they go to ground.

We have had a few of those snakehead sightings. Kind of alarming. They drained a whole pond because somebody said they saw one. Found a bunch of non natives, but nothing invasive. Mostly turtles. Pets, I imagine. But those snakeheads can be a serious problem. Mos def a kill on sight kind of deal. I hear they are a real problem on the east coast of the US.


I usually have a live and let live policy, but there is a red line. I will catch and release "undesirables" like spiders and stuff. I don't mind sharing my living space with the odd ant or whatever, but when you start finding them all up in your food and stuff, that's when it's time to take more aggressive action. Otherwise I don't really mind. I know how to share. But it's a whole different thing when it comes to non native invasives that are doing damage in one way or another.

Keep in mind I'm not an expert. I'm not a herpetologist. I'm just an amateur herp enthusiast. Like bird watching, only I get into snakes and such. And in the southeast its just part of life.

The likelihood of any individual finding a mate is small, pet or no. Unfortunately, it hasn't stopped them from establishing. There's enough out there that you really can't take that approach any longer. Florida is just really full of invasive reptiles of all sorts. There's really no way to know if it was a pet or not. It could just as easily be a juvenile trying to find its own home.

There are some ways you can trap them. But nothing that I would say is reliable. I've looked into it in the past when some local pest control guys (seriously, I now it sounds like I "know" everyone, but this "city" is a pretty small town; 5 miles any direction and you're in farm country) were asking me if I had any ideas because they often get calls to come remove snakes. Basically they wanted something they could set out and go do something else as opposed to trying to find them, because time is money. There's some stuff. The best bet I've seen may be these cahaba traps (or a generic version of, its basically glue in a box). If you check it often, you can remove the animal before it dies and it should survive with no harm. The problem with trapping herps, they don't hunt the way mammals do, they don't get "attracted" like a mammal. Basically, you have ambush hunters and foragers. Ambush hunters like rattlesnakes will usually use sight. Then (if its something venomous) after a bite it will track using chemical olfactory. So good luck attracting that. Foragers hunt by olfactory primarily, but in this case we're talking about an animal that feeds primarily on vegetation. Again, good luck attracting that.

And traps themselves don't work to attract them. Basically, you're giving it a shelter much like the cover tins we use in the woods which I've already mentioned. That's the extent of its attraction. You can try to increase the odds by placing it along a path, if you know the route its using. But that is much more effective indoors than outdoors where you may have no idea how many alternate routes something is using. So, its really a matter of setting and hoping for the best.

Really, they've tried just about everything you can think of in FL to control invasives and nothing really works. That should tell you about all you need to know on the matter. Its one of those things that the best environmental policy was to never let it happen to begin with. Too late. But that's sort of how it goes with a lot of environmental stuff (cough climate change cough). Problem is convincing people its important enough to care about. And important enough to inconvenience their life over.

Summary: There's some traps out there. I'm not convinced they're worth the money. Catching herps in the wild is more a matter of how much effort are you willing to put out. Best thing to do on the whole would be to let the dogs on it. Probably better for environment too. That said, I understand wanting to keep it alive. If you're into herps, it would make a cool pet for someone responsible enough to properly care for and contain it.

[Lucas]

Word...

If you do manage to trap it, you should either hand it into Control or donate it to a reptile research facility. But don't sell it to some douche with 400 reptiles in his two bedroom apartment or even a reputable reptile dealer. Donate it to the cause. It's Florida, shouldn't be hard to find the right guy to hand it over to. Personally, I don't agree with the buying and selling of any animals.

what about feeder animals like mice? i mean its pretty clear that they are being purchased for murder. :D

[SoCo KungFu]

Word...

If you do manage to trap it, you should either hand it into Control or donate it to a reptile research facility. But don't sell it to some douche with 400 reptiles in his two bedroom apartment or even a reputable reptile dealer. Donate it to the cause. It's Florida, shouldn't be hard to find the right guy to hand it over to. Personally, I don't agree with the buying and selling of any animals.

Truth be told, a well established and reputable breeder that specializes in a particular species (because typically they do), on average will have far greater expertise than a researcher or wildlife management.

That's not to say that some herpetologists don't breed on the side, but most don't. And researchers don't focus on a species very often, they mainly look at a question and then find the best species to answer the question. A breeder may not know the ins and outs of its genetics or proteome (although many do to some degree), but they will have an intimate understanding of its life cycle and needs, that can only really come from that every day contact they have with the species.

The other alternative would be to contact the zoo and see if they have room for one in an exhibit, let it live the life of luxury. No worries about finding food, avoiding predators, all the mates it could ask for....

[Lucas]

The other alternative would be to contact the zoo and see if they have room for one in an exhibit, let it live the life of luxury. No worries about finding food, avoiding predators, all the mates it could ask for....

is there a facility like this that i can sign up for? specifically one with all the mates i could ask for.

[Syn7]

Truth be told, a well established and reputable breeder that specializes in a particular species (because typically they do), on average will have far greater expertise than a researcher or wildlife management.

That's not to say that some herpetologists don't breed on the side, but most don't. And researchers don't focus on a species very often, they mainly look at a question and then find the best species to answer the question. A breeder may not know the ins and outs of its genetics or proteome (although many do to some degree), but they will have an intimate understanding of its life cycle and needs, that can only really come from that every day contact they have with the species.

The other alternative would be to contact the zoo and see if they have room for one in an exhibit, let it live the life of luxury. No worries about finding food, avoiding predators, all the mates it could ask for....

My concern isn't with breeders in general, it's with breeders that sell to just anyone w/o making sure they are set up and responsible. I mean... if you can find a breeder who puts in the time and only sells to responsible enthusiasts, cool.

[SoCo KungFu]

My concern isn't with breeders in general, it's with breeders that sell to just anyone w/o making sure they are set up and responsible. I mean... if you can find a breeder who puts in the time and only sells to responsible enthusiasts, cool.

There's a lot of those unfortunately. We try to police them ourselves. I like to crash the local herp shows like repticon and you always see the same groups there. I like to hang out at their tent and cock block their sales by telling people exactly what they're buy and how in 4 years that tiny snake will be a 4 ft boa. Got to be subtle though because they've started kicking people out for that kind of stuff. Some of the herp societies used to give educational talks but they too have been removed from the presenter lists because they were advising caution, rather than boosting sales.

Unfortunately, this type of hobby attracts a largely libertarian group that don't seem to think that they should have to listen to anyone and do what they want. Environment be ****ed.

Also interesting, some of these snakes they can breed are some of the best examples of Mendelian genetics I've ever seen (google Piebald ball python). And not a one of them believe in evolution.... go figure.

[KungFubar]

is there a facility like this that i can sign up for? specifically one with all the mates i could ask for.

sort of... but you wouldnt like it there.

[-N-]

You're best bet would be the same as any other herp.

This is what worked when I was doing field work in zoology.

Make a noose out of dental floss or monofilament. Attach it to a long stick. Wait for early morning when the lizards come out to sun themselves. Move really really slowly to creep up on the lizard. If you don't startle it, it will stay where it is.

Gradually maneuver the noose towards the lizard and over its head, then snap the line up and yank it off its feet. When maneuvering the noose, you go like a quarter inch at a time, pause, then move again. Keep doing that until you get close enough and can snag your prey. Pretty much you have to go super slow and stalk your prey without spooking it. Pretty easy after you practice a bit.

[SoCo KungFu]

This is what worked when I was doing field work in zoology.

Make a noose out of dental floss or monofilament. Attach it to a long stick. Wait for early morning when the lizards come out to sun themselves. Move really really slowly to creep up on the lizard. If you don't startle it, it will stay where it is.

Gradually maneuver the noose towards the lizard and over its head, then snap the line up and yank it off its feet. When maneuvering the noose, you go like a quarter inch at a time, pause, then move again. Keep doing that until you get close enough and can snag your prey. Pretty much you have to go super slow and stalk your prey without spooking it. Pretty easy after you practice a bit.

Yeah there's lots of tricks like that. I know a researcher that used to tie rubberbands into figure 8's then snap them at racerunners he needed for a study, because knocking them out is the only way to catch them, there's a reason for that name.

But like I said, catching herps is more about how much effort you are willing to put out. I'd count this under the more effort category. Most people don't have the time to sit there trying to noose a lizard. Yours is a good idea, though. Its essentially a makeshift of some professional equipment some people use to capture much larger things like gators and such. Nice thing about it is, you don't have to get it around the neck. If it bites at the line defensively you can pull that up too so long as it doesn't sheer the floss.

But yeah, if he's willing to be active about it, there's lots of options. Another is to bend a coat hanger into a shaft with a Y at the end. Tie a thick rubber band at the Y. Bend the Y at an angle so you can reach out and it still faces the ground, wall or whatever. Then press down. The band will compress it against the grass long enough for you to grab it but won't crush it in the process.

Its funny the things you figure out how to rig up on the cheap when you have to do something like this. A guy I know doing his MS is doing his entire thesis project on a $250.00 budget. Lots of mesocosms made of plastic kiddy pools and a bit of screen to cover.

[Syn7]

Could you use a snare with a light trigger at the opening of it's lil cubby hole? Assuming you can find it, that is?

I know how to make a wicked snare. Pretty easy to teach if anyone is interested. I have caught tons of small animals with them in the past. Works really well with rabbits. Never tried it on a lizard tho.

[SoCo KungFu]

Could you use a snare with a light trigger at the opening of it's lil cubby hole? Assuming you can find it, that is?

I know how to make a wicked snare. Pretty easy to teach if anyone is interested. I have caught tons of small animals with them in the past. Works really well with rabbits. Never tried it on a lizard tho.

Can't say, honestly I've never had much luck with snaring much of anything really. The issue still is, finding the spot. It seems to me that snaring is about covering as much area as possible. I would think in this case, even a make shift glue trap would be more successful because at least it would provide some level of enticement in that it could provide a shelter.

You can buy the inserts. Built the box out of cardboard and line the outside with a black trashbag. Problem is FL is humid as hell and that deteriorates both the cardboard and breaks down the glue.

[Syn7]

So it would be like using badass flypaper outside it's hole or somewhere it chills in the sun?

[SoCo KungFu]

So it would be like using badass flypaper outside it's hole or somewhere it chills in the sun?

Same idea yeah, but supposedly this glue can be easily broken down by pouring vege oil over it, releasing whatever you caught. Basically you just try to put it someplace you suspect there to be activity. Which is for obvious reasons, more difficult to do outdoors.