Siu Lin tau

[Hendrik]

Siu Lin tau of wing chun is analogous to San chin of white crane or karate .
It is a critical training to build up the core mechanics in term of body mind, body structure, force handling, and momentum handling.


This part of the wing chun is called the body of the art. This part of the art is for develop the unique body mechanics and skill to support the Wck applications requirements. That is how the traditional Chinese martial art work. An art has to have a complete body of the art and application of the art. Missing any part will make the art partial. Modern Wck lineage might evolve differently, however, a serious question is does one still learn Wck , or one has learn something evolve away , from what Wck is based on , but taking someone view which is not fully accord to the art of Wck.


Yes, there is proper way of doing things or practicing snt, because the content of snt is well define in the past. It is a causal system to produce result. Not a freelance open sketch pad where anyone can sketch what they like. One certainly can sketch whatever they like, however, that is no longer Wck. But one's own creation .

[Hendrik]

Screwing up siu Lin tau is screwing up Wck root .

As in the history shows, in 1855 when the one set system was redesigned to become today's three sets system to train fighters for uprising, the part of training which is today's snt is transfer over almost totally. Thus, this shows the critica and important of this part of the training .

If snt is not important and not useful, it will being cut away in 1855, and not sitting there for wasting energy for past 160 years.

Not to say, NONE of any WCK player since 1900 up to this second have the experience or measure up to the 1855 Wck generation ,who involve in real life and death situation or battle , where the death count of 1855 alone is more then one million in canton. And thousands red boat members died in the battle from 1854 to the beginng of 1860 , where the red boat army were totally wipe out from the history of china. Realistically , even the famous dr. Leong jan is amature when compare with these real fighters who has to fight different style of martial art for life. But they all practice snt. That is For sure. Since either the one set system or three sets system , they practice the snt part. By evidence in the history record.


The critical issue today is majority doesn't have a good snt training but adapting to western mind set which doesn't fit into Wck model. People starting to do things as they like and evolve things as they like. Thus, some of these so called Wck are more a western boxing practice with Wck looks. Or , on the other hand, southern shao Lin such as hung gar or northern taiji practice with wck look and evolve into a different type of art, but claim as authentic, Are these still Wck? That is a question we all need to face. But most of us choose to defend our ego and the big name of the sifu or lineage instead of honestly looking into the issue in the expense of Wck.

So, do we know what the heck we are talking about? When it comes to snt?

[JPinAZ]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1235550]Screwing up siu Lin tau is screwing up Wck root ...

....So, do we know what the heck we are talking about? /QUOTE]

From seeing your videos where you wobble all over the place with no idea root or upright stance, and from reading this nonsense you posted on this thread: you're guilty of the first statement and fail horribly at the second.

[Hendrik]

Since you are not practicing Wck from the red boat, but a different type of art called Wck .
I can understand you point.






[QUOTE=Hendrik;1235550]Screwing up siu Lin tau is screwing up Wck root ...

....So, do we know what the heck we are talking about? /QUOTE]

From seeing your videos where you wobble all over the place with no idea root or upright stance, and from reading this nonsense you posted on this thread: you're guilty of the first statement and fail horribly at the second.

[PalmStriker]

Since you are not practicing Wck from the red boat, but a different type of art called Wck .
I can understand you point.





[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1235553] I suppose you claim to be Chinese and can read/write the language to study these Red Boat historic records? (大 大 大 大 ). You don't look Chinese in your video's.

[Hendrik]

I read Classical Chinese and ancient text.
Was train in ancient Chinese literature , so, researching Chinese history is not an issue.



Today, We do know very clear on red boat era history , include the official history and the hung mun or anti qing history on who is who at that time. Also tcma DNA .

So, we do know what very likely to happen in 1850 in details , support and match up by the data from multiple field. Wck history is clear .

So, which modern Wck lineage are making up history and non exist in the past we do know.




The following is the outcome of the study by evidence . It is extremely likely to be this way. There is no mystery in Wck history but a tragic past which most ancestors avoid.

The ancestors lost the uprising and only a few escape. They don't talk about history to avoid being track down and endanger their descendent or students. We can see these happen in the Chinese history 1850 to 1960, when family past is a big burdens . So they tell a different story to isolate their off spring from history facts.


http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/scwc-tai-pingheavenlykingdomrevolutionerawcksinglesetsystem evolvesintoathreesetssystemscwcykwaa

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/tai-ping-heavenly-kingdom-revolution-erawckandchoyleefutfriendorfoescwcykwaa

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/scwc-tai-pingheavenlykingdomrevolutionerawingchuntransmissi onscwcykwaa-22229730




I suppose you claim to be Chinese and can read/write the language to study these Red Boat historic records? (大 大 大 大 ). You don't look Chinese in your video's.

[KungFubar]

what is WCk, is it just wing chun or something else forgive my ignorance thianks.

[Hendrik]

what is WCk, is it just wing chun or something else forgive my ignorance thianks.

1. Wck = Wing chun kuen.


2. If you want to know about siu Lin tau 1850 , the following will give you a brief summary. All authentic wing Chun lineages such as yks, ipman , ... which traceable to the red boat has these contents. Not applicable to Benny meng's flag system wing chun kuen or shao lin Weng chun kuen.

http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/ccwayne/review-of-sil-nim-tau-past-practice

[Hendrik]

Wing chun kuen is no superman art, it is no magic, it has its strengths and weakness.

We need to look at it in a practical way but not throw away the baby because we don't understand ancient Chinese way of system.


IMHO, Wck now need to go back to look at the art from the root to proceed and grow further.

[PalmStriker]

Thanks for clarification. :D

[Hendrik]

You are welcome.

We now know, but not if we don't do these studies for decades.


Wck history is very interesting, Wck art is deep and pragmatic, we need to further study it. Be proud to be a wcner, because Wck indeed is very rich in culture and art.


Thanks for clarification. :D

[tc101]

Wing chun kuen is no superman art, it is no magic, it has its strengths and weakness.

We need to look at it in a practical way but not throw away the baby because we don't understand ancient Chinese way of system.


IMHO, Wck now need to go back to look at the art from the root to proceed and grow further.

Why do we need to go back? There are wing chun people fighting successfully in k1 and pro mma that is a very high level of performance. Does that not prove their training is working? It is kind of insulting to those people to suggest that although they train wing chun and can perform at a high level that they are doing wing chun wrong but that you know the right way.

Why do we need to understand the ancient Chinese way of anything? I understand that is where we came from but just because we came from there does not mean we should stay there does it?

I have listened to several of your videos now where you talk about your ideas. Are there any videos where you or anyone actually puts those ideas to use and makes them work in sparring or competition so that we can see your ideas working or is this just an idea you think should work?

[Hendrik]

Why do we need to go back? ----------


As explain above, we need to find out and know what is wing chun kuen clearly to make the training effective. Instead of taking what we think as what wing chun kuen is. But, still don't know what siu Lin tau is developing even though we keep mimic it.

For example,
white crane or karate uses its San chin set to develop their unique body type in order to support their applications.
Similarly Southern praying mantis , Hsing Yee , Baji .....etc
And wing chun kuen is using siu Lin tau set. But if we don't know how exactly siu nim tau works, we will not be able to effectively develop what needs to develop.




There are wing chun people fighting successfully in k1 and pro mma that is a very high level of performance. Does that not prove their training is working? It is kind of insulting to those people to suggest that although they train wing chun and can perform at a high level that they are doing wing chun wrong but that you know the right way.---------


Analogy to knowing one's own family tree history and family business is a different deal with any individual personal achievement. Both are aiding each others not counter each others.

Further more, mma or k1 is not a reference of the contents of the wing chun kuen art ,also great individual personal training doesn't necessary means one knows how the sets work, they have great achievement which we must respect but they are not necessary represent the art of Wck.

It is not up to me or them to have say on what is the Wck way, but upto the evidence of ancient to justify what is the Wck way.




Why do we need to understand the ancient Chinese way of anything? I understand that is where we came from but just because we came from there does not mean we should stay there does it?----------


If I am learning the music of Beethoven I better understand what Beethoven philosophy, practice , and uniqueness .

Is it saying i needs to stay only in the Beethoven way?
No.
But knowing the Beethoven way clearly let me know exactly what it is, why it is, how it is, its strength and its weakness without guessing. And there by can perform Beethoven music as it is, instead of I think I know but I really think according to me , instead of knowing what Beethoven music is.





I have listened to several of your videos now where you talk about your ideas. Are there any videos where you or anyone actually puts those ideas to use and makes them work in sparring or competition so that we can see your ideas working or is this just an idea you think should work? --------


Many wcners including many in this forum has put the process i share into their practice and experience the result for themselves . They can tell you what they gain from their training. Those who have adapted to YKT and snake engine knows what is it like.


also, such as the following YouTube , I suggest using the biofeedback machine as an independent reference to verify ones ability in a scientific way. That is a solid way to know the result of siu Lin tau practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzboUjmprU

One cannot see physiological experience in video. But if you follow the process and using the machine , you can get to that experience. As example on the above utube, one cannot imagine what the ancient writing means and how is it when one has a coherence state which can handle stress. But if one was train with the emwave machine , one will be able recognize and access that physiology state.

So, if one think their training can handle stress or pressure, just hook up the machine, see if one can enter to the coherence state at will? If one think he master the siu Lin tau training, then hook him to the machine and see if one can enter the coherence state when they practice the set.


Thus, my view is to leave it to the ancient evidence and the scientific data reference to justify what the art of Wck is, instead of k1, mma, famous grand masters, great fighters, or me to tell what is the art of Wck.

It is about let the art speak for itself by evidence and scientific data . Doesn't matter and independent to what I think.

[JPinAZ]

Since you are not practicing Wck from the red boat, but a different type of art called Wck .
I can understand you point.

Exactly. But don't get it wrong, same art since they are all WCK, but clearly FAR different understandings!

And, my non-red boat system has 3 sets now and 3 sets in 1850 and 3 sets before that. So your 'theory' of this one, big super-set in 1850 is false - unless someone on a boat put them all together at that point just to break them all apart again? :rolleyes:

BTW, since WC is WC, Centerline is still centerline, and gravity is gravity regardless if it came off a boat or land. So your excuse for having no root, bad posture and wobbling around in your videos makes no sense just because it came off a boat.
Oh wait, maybe the boat made you sea sick!! LOL :eek:

[Hendrik]

Facts:

1. From three main identify 1850 red boat wing chun kuen lineages, the Wong wah po, yik kam, and lo man Kung lineages, we know the facts is pre 1850, the Wck practice is one set. Three sets system comes after 1855, or post 1855.

2. The core of Wck in red boat is snake and crane within the siu Lin tau set, and the snake technology dna is from emei and the crane technology is from white crane of fujian. We today have writing and matching Dna of 1850 to 1890 to prove these, and also agreement from the Asia Chinese martial art expert ie. Gm Lee Kong , the southern Chinese martial art expert and scholar.

3. The yik kam and snake crane Wck lineages have traced their ancestors passed code with 1850 uprising anti Qing group and verified the identity of the ancestors. And the anti Qing operation the ancestors involve in, also match with the record within the Chinese official history.


4. There is no shaolin Lin in 1850 when the three set concept was created. When the siu Lin tau created in the 1700s, there also has no shaolin involve. These are history facts. Indeed the anti Qing admit they are using the name of burning of shaolin in 1855 as a pseudonym of burning of the fine jade hall .



Unless you can show the evidence as above, in term of Chinese history, trace able ancestors family tree, Chinese martial art DNA, traceable and match ancestors passed code with the anti Qing uprising , across fields or from different sources. your art is not Wck as of 1850 , a different art or might be a modern evolution of Wck.





Btw,

why is your siu lin tau dna show it is a subset of yip mam Wck mix with other components? Instead of having the common denominator DNA of 1850 wck slt from the three identifiable 1850 red boat era Wck?

May be you want to explain that to the wing chun kuen community.


These missing of common denominator DNA and mix with other components show by evidence it is a different art instead of the Wck as in Wong wah Bo, yik kam, lo man Kung, or ipman, yks, kulo , ...Wck.



If you like to, please feel free to Show us your siu Lin tau YouTube and we can objectively analyzed it here point by point, mechanics by mechanics.

Solid Evidence is the bottom line, as always


Finally, I would like to say I have full respect to the art and lineage you practice, but if it is not Wck 1850 then it is not. That is a DNA issue.




Exactly. But don't get it wrong, same art since they are all WCK, but clearly FAR different understandings!

And, my non-red boat system has 3 sets now and 3 sets in 1850 and 3 sets before that. So your 'theory' of this one, big super-set in 1850 is false - unless someone on a boat put them all together at that point just to break them all apart again? :rolleyes:

BTW, since WC is WC, Centerline is still centerline, and gravity is gravity regardless if it came off a boat or land. So your excuse for having no root, bad posture and wobbling around in your videos makes no sense just because it came off a boat.
Oh wait, maybe the boat made you sea sick!! LOL :eek:

[tc101]

Why do we need to go back? ----------


As explain above, we need to find out and know what is wing chun kuen clearly to make the training effective.


As I pointed out there are wing chun people fighting and winning pro mma bouts. Are you saying their training isn't effective? Are you saying your training is more effective than that? Are you beating pro mma fighters?



Instead of taking what we think as what wing chun kuen is. But, still don't know what siu Lin tau is developing even though we keep mimic it.

For example,
white crane or karate uses its San chin set to develop their unique body type in order to support their applications.
Similarly Southern praying mantis , Hsing Yee , Baji .....etc
And wing chun kuen is using siu Lin tau set. But if we don't know how exactly siu nim tau works, we will not be able to effectively develop what needs to develop.


If a person can make their wing chun work at pro mma level haven't they developed what they need?

Can you tell me of anyone who is doing things as you believe they should be done who can perform at that level?



There are wing chun people fighting successfully in k1 and pro mma that is a very high level of performance. Does that not prove their training is working? It is kind of insulting to those people to suggest that although they train wing chun and can perform at a high level that they are doing wing chun wrong but that you know the right way.---------


Analogy to knowing one's own family tree history and family business is a different deal with any individual personal achievement. Both are aiding each others not counter each others.


I do not understand your analogy. Wing chun is to develop the individual. If an individual uses their wing chun training to develop to a very high performance level how can say they are wrong? How can you say something else works better if you cannot tell me of anyone who can do it?



Further more, mma or k1 is not a reference of the contents of the wing chun kuen art ,also great individual personal training doesn't necessary means one knows how the sets work, they have great achievement which we must respect but they are not necessary represent the art of Wck.


They represent the training from wing chun since that is what produced their results, right? So ow does that not represent the art of wing chun? Mma and K1 are a means of testing those results.



It is not up to me or them to have say on what is the Wck way, but upto the evidence of ancient to justify what is the Wck way.


Why do we need to look to ancients? Did not Yip Man know what is wing chun? How about Sum Nung? Did Leung Jan know? We're they all doing something other than wing chun? Did they all not make changes to the art?



I have listened to several of your videos now where you talk about your ideas. Are there any videos where you or anyone actually puts those ideas to use and makes them work in sparring or competition so that we can see your ideas working or is this just an idea you think should work? --------


Many wcners including many in this forum has put the process i share into their practice and experience the result for themselves . They can tell you what they gain from their training. Those who have adapted to YKT and snake engine knows what is it like.


also, such as the following YouTube , I suggest using the biofeedback machine as an independent reference to verify ones ability in a scientific way. That is a solid way to know the result of siu Lin tau practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzboUjmprU

One cannot see physiological experience in video. But if you follow the process and using the machine , you can get to that experience. As example on the above utube, one cannot imagine what the ancient writing means and how is it when one has a coherence state which can handle stress. But if one was train with the emwave machine , one will be able recognize and access that physiology state.

So, if one think their training can handle stress or pressure, just hook up the machine, see if one can enter to the coherence state at will? If one think he master the siu Lin tau training, then hook him to the machine and see if one can enter the coherence state when they practice the set.


Thus, my view is to leave it to the ancient evidence and the scientific data reference to justify what the art of Wck is, instead of k1, mma, famous grand masters, great fighters, or me to tell what is the art of Wck.

It is about let the art speak for itself by evidence and scientific data . Doesn't matter and independent to what I think.

I am sorry but this all makes little sense to me. Did Yip Man or Sum Nung or Leung Jan use biofeedback machines? Do you think the quality of your wing chun can be determined by an EEG?

I gather from your response that no you cannot offer any video of anyone able to use and I stress use the stuff you are talking about other than as some sort of meditation. I do not know about other people but I did not take up wing chun to learn to meditate or for biofeedback or whatever else this stuff is. For me the people who can make their wing chun work like the grand masters or the mma fighters were clearly doing something right or they would not have their achievements. If you think someone else ancient or otherwise had better ways of doing things then I think you should be able o produce at least similar results. If you can't do that then I think your conclusions are not valid.

[Hendrik]

As I pointed out there are wing chun people fighting and winning pro mma bouts. Are you saying their training isn't effective? Are you saying your training is more effective than that? Are you beating pro mma fighters?--------


You still missed my point.

It is like sport science and beating Muhammad Ali. They are Different issues.







If a person can make their wing chun work at pro mma level haven't they developed what they need? --------

Pro mma level is not an indication of if they do wing chun.

There are people who is talented in street fighting who doesn't have to train in martial art. But will beat you even if you have black belt.




Can you tell me of anyone who is doing things as you believe they should be done who can perform at that level? -------

Instead of going out of tangent.
Let say , to be very specific, what result do you get from your siu lin tau training?





I do not understand your analogy. Wing chun is to develop the individual. If an individual uses their wing chun training to develop to a very high performance level how can say they are wrong? ------


What is wing chun kuen?
Is it something define by anyone as they like ?

What is high performance level? What is the definition?

What is wrong or right?




They represent the training from wing chun since that is what produced their results, right? So ow does that not represent the art of wing chun? Mma and K1 are a means of testing those results. ------

Mma and k1 testing the individual ability but not whether they do wing chun or bjj or karate or boxing as the style define .





Why do we need to look to ancients? Did not Yip Man know what is wing chun? How about Sum Nung? Did Leung Jan know? We're they all doing something other than wing chun? Did they all not make changes to the art? -------


Everyone evolve their Wck , look at ancient is to find out what is the common denominator of the art, what has been lost , what has been improve, what need to be correct or improve.





I am sorry but this all makes little sense to me. Did Yip Man or Sum Nung or Leung Jan use biofeedback machines? Do you think the quality of your wing chun can be determined by an EEG? -------

They don't have the technology.

Thus, the transmission of the art in ancient is not as effective compare with the modern era where one can lead the student to experience the needed physiological state accurately.

By ancient standard, in today's language , once one stand in yjkym before starting slt , one enter into the coherence state of neuro, cardio, respiratory.....eft. That is a part of the internal Kung attainment of slt.

How long and how effective is this state can be convey in the ancient china?
How many of wcners today aware of this part of and can do it in their slt practice?
Or people even aware of the existing of this needed physiology state in slt practice?


Now, with modern technology, one can communicate, recognized the state clearly and develop it in a short time. With this coherence handling one has another degree of freedom to handle themselves . A part of snt training. The fundamental of " little idea". Coherence is physiological is the basic of the "little idea". "Little idea" is not a saying or thinking , it is a physiological state . Do one know this state, can one enter this state at will is critical in siu Lin tau set practice and development of Wck. Otherwise , it will not be called siu Lin tau.





I gather from your response that no you cannot offer any video of anyone able to use and I stress use the stuff you are talking about other than as some sort of meditation. ------

That is your opinion. I am ok with it .




I do not know about other people but I did not take up wing chun to learn to meditate or for biofeedback or whatever else this stuff is. For me the people who can make their wing chun work like the grand masters or the mma fighters were clearly doing something right or they would not have their achievements. ----

That is your intention and believe, it is perfectly ok.

I am discuss the art of Wck here as evidence from past shows. I do not disapprove the way you like to think. But present what is Wck according to the ancient evidence in today's language.





If you think someone else ancient or otherwise had better ways of doing things then I think you should be able o produce at least similar results. If you can't do that then I think your conclusions are not valid. ----------

Again, I am talking what is content the art of WCK according to the ancient evidence,
instead of who fight better.

As the above biofeedback machine case, evidentially, the modern technology can define and lead one to experience the coherence physiological state in slt practice and development much accurate and effective then any of the past grandmasters can. The so called internal art of slt now can be accurately know and develop.


Finally, my goal is not how good am I can demo. But how to use modern technology to support "mass production " or " common education " . So that every wcners can get it effectively.

Using the above biofeedback coherence state entering as an example. Upto now even among the so called grandmasters group, How many wcners has heard about it? How many knows what it is? How many can do it? How many can teach it? how effective can one attain it ?
But now on with a machine of $160 one can get it in a week of practice.


And thus, we do know the ancient know the existing of this coherence state when they design the slt set. But their teaching is not effective to get across. But today, via high tech one can get it very effectively.


So, why is it needs to have a coherence state training? In the ancient that is called the samadhi state . The state which is the prerequisite of the wing chun kuen famous slogan . " fist issue from the heart." In ancient chinese. Heart has two meanings, one means the physical center , another one is coherence state.

And how important is the coherence state? Remember the set is called siu Lin tau or " little idea" , asking ourself, why is the set name as " little idea" instead of tiger boxing , center line attack .....etc.

[JPinAZ]

Facts:

1. From three main identify 1850 red boat wing chun kuen lineages, the Wong wah po, yik kam, and lo man Kung lineages, we know the facts is pre 1850, the Wck practice is one set. Three sets system comes after 1855, or post 1855.

Not a fact, your made-up his-story


2. The core of Wck in red boat is snake and crane within the siu Lin tau set, and the snake technology dna is from emei and the crane technology is from white crane of fujian. We today have writing and matching Dna of 1850 to 1890 to prove these, and also agreement from the Asia Chinese martial art expert ie. Gm Lee Kong , the southern Chinese martial art expert and scholar.

Incorrect again, as there are several wc lineages that are not from red boat that date back to prior to 1850's that do not have this snake/crane nonsense, nor this one-set BS.
Your ignorance is astounding - WCK is not about animal style anything. While there are certain signatures/flavors of some snake & crane in WCK (as well as eagle, dragon, etc), the whole focus of WC's creation was to move AWAY from this animal style thinking and towards fighting as a human based on science and mzimum efficiency.


3. The yik kam and snake crane Wck lineages have traced their ancestors passed code with 1850 uprising anti Qing group and verified the identity of the ancestors. And the anti Qing operation the ancestors involve in, also match with the record within the Chinese official history.

If yik kam wanted to add animal styles back to his partial WCK, that is no problem to me. But this is one guy doing his own thing. it only proves what he did.


4. There is no shaolin Lin in 1850 when the three set concept was created. When the siu Lin tau created in the 1700s, there also has no shaolin involve. These are history facts. Indeed the anti Qing admit they are using the name of burning of shaolin in 1855 as a pseudonym of burning of the fine jade hall .

I could really care less about this shaolin buisness.


Unless you can show the evidence as above, in term of Chinese history, trace able ancestors family tree, Chinese martial art DNA, traceable and match ancestors passed code with the anti Qing uprising , across fields or from different sources. your art is not Wck as of 1850 , a different art or might be a modern evolution of Wck.

You know nothing about 'my art'. The proof is in the pudding, and I have offered to meet with you personally several times so we can share views, and funny enough,you've always declined ;) So, you're not really interested in anything to do with my art. You are only here to spread your made-up his-story and BS


Btw,

why is your siu lin tau dna show it is a subset of yip mam Wck mix with other components? Instead of having the common denominator DNA of 1850 wck slt from the three identifiable 1850 red boat era Wck?

May be you want to explain that to the wing chun kuen community.

These missing of common denominator DNA and mix with other components show by evidence it is a different art instead of the Wck as in Wong wah Bo, yik kam, lo man Kung, or ipman, yks, kulo , ...Wck.

Hahaha, you are so clueless about so many things. My SNT does not come from red boats or wong wah bo. This is the time period where a lot of WC started changing and people went their own ways. You're a perfect example of this!

I will not argue about your missing common denominator in your WCK. That is your problem to keep trying to figure out.


If you like to, please feel free to Show us your siu Lin tau YouTube and we can objectively analyzed it here point by point, mechanics by mechanics.

Solid Evidence is the bottom line, as always

Finally, I would like to say I have full respect to the art and lineage you practice, but if it is not Wck 1850 then it is not. That is a DNA issue.

Enough with your stupid games, it's not about my SNT (which is easily found on youtube and has also been linked to here several times). You talk about DNA, but you cannot even stand straight in your own SNT videos. You wobble around and ramble on like crazy drunk sailor in your clips, so you are not qualified or able to analyze anything.

Now, if you would like to see or discuss my WC DNA further, I will be happy to show you personally like I have offered before. Please let me know when you are free.

[JPinAZ]

I am sorry but this all makes little sense to me.

You're far from alone on this one!


Did Yip Man or Sum Nung or Leung Jan use biofeedback machines? Do you think the quality of your wing chun can be determined by an EEG?

I gather from your response that no you cannot offer any video of anyone able to use and I stress use the stuff you are talking about other than as some sort of meditation. I do not know about other people but I did not take up wing chun to learn to meditate or for biofeedback or whatever else this stuff is. For me the people who can make their wing chun work like the grand masters or the mma fighters were clearly doing something right or they would not have their achievements. If you think someone else ancient or otherwise had better ways of doing things then I think you should be able o produce at least similar results. If you can't do that then I think your conclusions are not valid.

Of course he can't. He has openly admitted that his own WC is incomplete and missing stuff from the past and that is why he is looking to ancient texts, old histories, snake/crane arts etc to fill in the blanks.

Anyone that looks at a few of his videos can plainly see he can't even make what he talks about work for himself. And that is why you never see him do anything with a partner. Well, unless you count punching baloons and doing wall tricks with baseball bats :rolleyes: The guy's clueless.

[Hendrik]

Believe what you like.

It is fine with me.


Not a fact, your made-up his-story



Incorrect again, as there are several wc lineages that are not from red boat that date back to prior to 1850's that do not have this snake/crane nonsense, nor this one-set BS.
Your ignorance is astounding - WCK is not about animal style anything. While there are certain signatures/flavors of some snake & crane in WCK (as well as eagle, dragon, etc), the whole focus of WC's creation was to move AWAY from this animal style thinking and towards fighting as a human based on science and mzimum efficiency.



If yik kam wanted to add animal styles back to his partial WCK, that is no problem to me. But this is one guy doing his own thing. it only proves what he did.



I could really care less about this shaolin buisness.



You know nothing about 'my art'. The proof is in the pudding, and I have offered to meet with you personally several times so we can share views, and funny enough,you've always declined ;) So, you're not really interested in anything to do with my art. You are only here to spread your made-up his-story and BS



Hahaha, you are so clueless about so many things. My SNT does not come from red boats or wong wah bo. This is the time period where a lot of WC started changing and people went their own ways. You're a perfect example of this!

I will not argue about your missing common denominator in your WCK. That is your problem to keep trying to figure out.



Enough with your stupid games, it's not about my SNT (which is easily found on youtube and has also been linked to here several times). You talk about DNA, but you cannot even stand straight in your own SNT videos. You wobble around and ramble on like crazy drunk sailor in your clips, so you are not qualified or able to analyze anything.

Now, if you would like to see or discuss my WC DNA further, I will be happy to show you personally like I have offered before. Please let me know when you are free.

[Hendrik]

You are an interesting guy, can't show legitimate evidence and as usual turn into personal attack.

Hahaha. Go a head make my day. No one can wrap fire with paper.


You're far from alone on this one!



Of course he can't. He has openly admitted that his own WC is incomplete and missing stuff from the past and that is why he is looking to ancient texts, old histories, snake/crane arts etc to fill in the blanks.

Anyone that looks at a few of his videos can plainly see he can't even make what he talks about work for himself. And that is why you never see him do anything with a partner. Well, unless you count punching baloons and doing wall tricks with baseball bats :rolleyes: The guy's clueless.

[tc101]

As I pointed out there are wing chun people fighting and winning pro mma bouts. Are you saying their training isn't effective? Are you saying your training is more effective than that? Are you beating pro mma fighters?--------


You still missed my point.

It is like sport science and beating Muhammad Ali. They are Different issues.


Ok but doesn't Ali show that his training was successful? And if someone says there is a better way to train than Ali would we not expect to see similar uccess?



If a person can make their wing chun work at pro mma level haven't they developed what they need? --------

Pro mma level is not an indication of if they do wing chun.

There are people who is talented in street fighting who doesn't have to train in martial art. But will beat you even if you have black belt.


Ok but the point is they are trained in wing chun and they are using their training in mma not something else. So we know their wing chun training got them to that point and that shows it worked, right?



Can you tell me of anyone who is doing things as you believe they should be done who can perform at that level? -------

Instead of going out of tangent.
Let say , to be very specific, what result do you get from your siu lin tau training?


That is not a tangent it is the main point because you said your way of training this ancient way produced more effective results so I ask where are these results?

Your question does not make sense to me because my training is not simply limited to SLT.



I do not understand your analogy. Wing chun is to develop the individual. If an individual uses their wing chun training to develop to a very high performance level how can say they are wrong? ------


What is wing chun kuen?
Is it something define by anyone as they like ?


Once more your question makes no sense to me. If I practice the art passed down from Leung Jan and Yip Man is this not wing chun?



What is high performance level? What is the definition?

What is wrong or right?


Wing chun is a martial art is it not? If someone is a may Thai fighter and can fight successfully on the pro level is this not a high performance level?



They represent the training from wing chun since that is what produced their results, right? So ow does that not represent the art of wing chun? Mma and K1 are a means of testing those results. ------

Mma and k1 testing the individual ability but not whether they do wing chun or bjj or karate or boxing as the style define .


Sure it does. What do you think they are using but their training? If they are poorly skilled in bjj then they will not be successful on the ground. They are not going to be able to beat skilled fighters without skills themselves.

You keep referring to definitions and this makes no sense to me.



Why do we need to look to ancients? Did not Yip Man know what is wing chun? How about Sum Nung? Did Leung Jan know? We're they all doing something other than wing chun? Did they all not make changes to the art? -------


Everyone evolve their Wck , look at ancient is to find out what is the common denominator of the art, what has been lost , what has been improve, what need to be correct or improve.


This also makes little sense to me. I do to need to know the history of bjj or boxing or any other martial art to practice those arts or to become highly skilled. Why do you think that looking to the ancient past is the path to getting better today especially when you don't know of anyone using your ancient ways who is getting better results?



I am sorry but this all makes little sense to me. Did Yip Man or Sum Nung or Leung Jan use biofeedback machines? Do you think the quality of your wing chun can be determined by an EEG? -------

They don't have the technology.

Thus, the transmission of the art in ancient is not as effective compare with the modern era where one can lead the student to experience the needed physiological state accurately.

By ancient standard, in today's language , once one stand in yjkym before starting slt , one enter into the coherence state of neuro, cardio, respiratory.....eft. That is a part of the internal Kung attainment of slt.

How long and how effective is this state can be convey in the ancient china?
How many of wcners today aware of this part of and can do it in their slt practice?
Or people even aware of the existing of this needed physiology state in slt practice?


Now, with modern technology, one can communicate, recognized the state clearly and develop it in a short time. With this coherence handling one has another degree of freedom to handle themselves . A part of snt training. The fundamental of " little idea". Coherence is physiological is the basic of the "little idea". "Little idea" is not a saying or thinking , it is a physiological state . Do one know this state, can one enter this state at will is critical in siu Lin tau set practice and development of Wck. Otherwise , it will not be called siu Lin tau.


I am sorry but who cares? As I said I did not take up wing chun to learn this technology or these states or this coherence as you call it. If this is what ancient wing chun was about I for one am happy that Leung Jan and Yip Man got rid of it. Even if you are right and this was the ancient way I prefer the new wing chun of LJ and YM.



I gather from your response that no you cannot offer any video of anyone able to use and I stress use the stuff you are talking about other than as some sort of meditation. ------

That is your opinion. I am ok with it .


Is there any video evidence of someone using your ancient stuff in fighting or sparring, yes or no?



I do not know about other people but I did not take up wing chun to learn to meditate or for biofeedback or whatever else this stuff is. For me the people who can make their wing chun work like the grand masters or the mma fighters were clearly doing something right or they would not have their achievements. ----

That is your intention and believe, it is perfectly ok.

I am discuss the art of Wck here as evidence from past shows. I do not disapprove the way you like to think. But present what is Wck according to the ancient evidence in today's language.


Yes but the grand masters are from the past too. Are you saying that what Leung Jan taught is not wing chun? Or what Yip Man taught is not wing chun?



If you think someone else ancient or otherwise had better ways of doing things then I think you should be able o produce at least similar results. If you can't do that then I think your conclusions are not valid. ----------

Again, I am talking what is content the art of WCK according to the ancient evidence,
instead of who fight better.

As the above biofeedback machine case, evidentially, the modern technology can define and lead one to experience the coherence physiological state in slt practice and development much accurate and effective then any of the past grandmasters can. The so called internal art of slt now can be accurately know and develop.


I am sorry to be a pain it is only what you are saying I find very confusing. You keep talking about this coherence state as though this is some holy grail. Perhaps the ancients were interested in this but I don't think Leung Jan or Yip Man were. Perhaps they saw this was a waste of time. If this coherence state makes your martial abilities better as you think how come the grand masters were not interested in it, how come people today can use their wing chun in pro mma without it and how come you can not show us anyone who can?



Finally, my goal is not how good am I can demo. But how to use modern technology to support "mass production " or " common education " . So that every wcners can get it effectively.

Using the above biofeedback coherence state entering as an example. Upto now even among the so called grandmasters group, How many wcners has heard about it? How many knows what it is? How many can do it? How many can teach it? how effective can one attain it ?
But now on with a machine of $160 one can get it in a week of practice.


And thus, we do know the ancient know the existing of this coherence state when they design the slt set. But their teaching is not effective to get across. But today, via high tech one can get it very effectively.


So, why is it needs to have a coherence state training? In the ancient that is called the samadhi state . The state which is the prerequisite of the wing chun kuen famous slogan . " fist issue from the heart." In ancient chinese. Heart has two meanings, one means the physical center , another one is coherence state.

And how important is the coherence state? Remember the set is called siu Lin tau or " little idea" , asking ourself, why is the set name as " little idea" instead of tiger boxing , center line attack .....etc.

I learned that the little idea refers to the basic strategic framework of wing chun or the idea of wing chun which is to defeat the opponent by dominating the centerline. The individual uses this framework to build his wing chun. The chum kiu and biu jee build on this framework.

[Hendrik]

Your question does not make sense to me because my training is not simply limited to SLT.---------


Slt is the core foundation of Wck, so instead of getting into millions of things, one needs to clear with what does one from SLT . So, as I brought up to you to be very specific, what result do you get from your siu lin tau training?

So, instead of get into general. Get specific, what result do you get from your siu Lin tau training?





Once more your question makes no sense to me. If I practice the art passed down from Leung Jan and Yip Man is this not wing chun? ---------


My question is what is wing chun? What is the definition






Wing chun is a martial art is it not? If someone is a may Thai fighter and can fight successfully on the pro level is this not a high performance level? ---------


Wing chun is a martial art and also a Chinese martial art . It has its uniqueness and concept.
As I have mention before, fight successfully on the pro mean only the individual ability. Does justify the style of his art.







This also makes little sense to me. I do to need to know the history of bjj or boxing or any other martial art to practice those arts or to become highly skilled. Why do you think that looking to the ancient past is the path to getting better today especially when you don't know of anyone using your ancient ways who is getting better results?--------


This thread is title siu lin tau. It is about the art history and content. As I have mentioned in the previous post. It is focus on finding out what it is by the evidence of ancient.

What you brought up is a different topic.






I am sorry but who cares? As I said I did not take up wing chun to learn this technology or these states or this coherence as you call it. If this is what ancient wing chun was about I for one am happy that Leung Jan and Yip Man got rid of it. Even if you are right and this was the ancient way I prefer the new wing chun of LJ and YM.--------


this topic is on siu Lin tau and its content. If you are not interested in the content of slt as define in the ancient then this is not the thread for you.






I am sorry to be a pain it is only what you are saying I find very confusing. You keep talking about this coherence state as though this is some holy grail. Perhaps the ancients were interested in this but I don't think Leung Jan or Yip Man were. Perhaps they saw this was a waste of time. If this coherence state makes your martial abilities better as you think how come the grand masters were not interested in it, how come people today can use their wing chun in pro mma without it and how come you can not show us anyone who can? ------


This is the reason I ask you what is the definition of Wck?

If it is according to you, then that is your view.

If it is according to ancient record then without the ability to enter the coherence state in slt practice means one doesn't practice properly.

So, the question to you is what is wing chun kuen?

As for your question on pro mma as I have repeat myself a few time, there are talented people who doesn't have to learn martial art but a born nature fighter.






I learned that the little idea refers to the basic strategic framework of wing chun or the idea of wing chun which is to defeat the opponent by dominating the centerline. The individual uses this framework to build his wing chun. The chum kiu and biu jee build on this framework.---------



Siu Lin tau , according to the ancient has six elements,

Body development including body structure,
mind development including coherence state, breathing
Breathing development including deep lower abs breathing.
Qi development including energy channeling in different part of the physical body.
Force change development including power generation, force trajectory , and force flow.
Momentum development including momentum manipulation ,strategy, and generation.

Those are what one develop in siu Lin tau.


So, again, that is the ancient Chinese definition. Does one develop all these six or partial or not knowing the existance of these six which is support each others as a system unique to Wck , that is the measurable questions.

[JPinAZ]

Slt is the core foundation of Wck, so instead of getting into millions of things, one needs to clear with what does one from SLT .

I actually agree with you. With this type of logic and understanding, your theory doesn't make any sense that there would be one long form set when SLT is so important on it's own...

[tc101]

Your question does not make sense to me because my training is not simply limited to SLT.---------


Slt is the core foundation of Wck, so instead of getting into millions of things, one needs to clear with what does one from SLT . So, as I brought up to you to be very specific, what result do you get from your siu lin tau training?

So, instead of get into general. Get specific, what result do you get from your siu Lin tau training?


Please do not try to deflect the inquiry I am making. You said this ancient wing chun stuff produces better results so I am asking about that.



Once more your question makes no sense to me. If I practice the art passed down from Leung Jan and Yip Man is this not wing chun? ---------


My question is what is wing chun? What is the definition


Another deflection. Why can't you answer my question? Is the art passed down from Leung Jan or Yip Man wing chun yes or no?



Wing chun is a martial art is it not? If someone is a may Thai fighter and can fight successfully on the pro level is this not a high performance level? ---------

Wing chun is a martial art and also a Chinese martial art . It has its uniqueness and concept.
As I have mention before, fight successfully on the pro mean only the individual ability. Does justify the style of his art.


To fight successfully against skilled people requires skill. Skill is ability. That ability comes from training. A bjj fighter or boxer does to just win because of natural ability but training. The individual's performance justifies his training by showing how well it worked. If you cannot justify your martial art by fighting how would you? By EEG?



This also makes little sense to me. I do to need to know the history of bjj or boxing or any other martial art to practice those arts or to become highly skilled. Why do you think that looking to the ancient past is the path to getting better today especially when you don't know of anyone using your ancient ways who is getting better results?--------


This thread is title siu lin tau. It is about the art history and content. As I have mentioned in the previous post. It is focus on finding out what it is by the evidence of ancient.

What you brought up is a different topic.


This is another deflection. You brought up how knowing the history and ancient context would make training today better.



I am sorry but who cares? As I said I did not take up wing chun to learn this technology or these states or this coherence as you call it. If this is what ancient wing chun was about I for one am happy that Leung Jan and Yip Man got rid of it. Even if you are right and this was the ancient way I prefer the new wing chun of LJ and YM.--------


this topic is on siu Lin tau and its content. If you are not interested in the content of slt as define in the ancient then this is not the thread for you.


If you make claims of superior results do not then try to back off with this is only a thread about history.

If your opinion is SLT was in ancient times concerned with achieving samadhi or enlightenment that is one thing. That is not something I am interested in. But you went further and talked about getting better results. I now see you did not mean better results in using your martial art but in changing your brain waves or whatever.

You should put up a disclaimer.



I am sorry to be a pain it is only what you are saying I find very confusing. You keep talking about this coherence state as though this is some holy grail. Perhaps the ancients were interested in this but I don't think Leung Jan or Yip Man were. Perhaps they saw this was a waste of time. If this coherence state makes your martial abilities better as you think how come the grand masters were not interested in it, how come people today can use their wing chun in pro mma without it and how come you can not show us anyone who can? ------


This is the reason I ask you what is the definition of Wck?

If it is according to you, then that is your view.

If it is according to ancient record then without the ability to enter the coherence state in slt practice means one doesn't practice properly.

So, the question to you is what is wing chun kuen?


So in your view the purpose of wing chun is to get into samadhi state? Quite frankly I practice wing chun as a martial art and that stuff I have no interest in.



As for your question on pro mma as I have repeat myself a few time, there are talented people who doesn't have to learn martial art but a born nature fighter.


I am not talking about natural born fighters but people who train to develop skill that they use in fighting.



I learned that the little idea refers to the basic strategic framework of wing chun or the idea of wing chun which is to defeat the opponent by dominating the centerline. The individual uses this framework to build his wing chun. The chum kiu and biu jee build on this framework.---------

Siu Lin tau , according to the ancient has six elements,

Body development including body structure,
mind development including coherence state, breathing
Breathing development including deep lower abs breathing.
Qi development including energy channeling in different part of the physical body.
Force change development including power generation, force trajectory , and force flow.
Momentum development including momentum manipulation ,strategy, and generation.

Those are what one develop in siu Lin tau.


So, again, that is the ancient Chinese definition. Does one develop all these six or partial or not knowing the existance of these six which is support each others as a system unique to Wck , that is the measurable questions.

Maybe that is someone's ancient definition but that does not mean it is the definition for all wing chun. It also does not mean we are stuck with it because like Leung Jan or Yip Man we are not the slaves to anyone's definition or idea.

[YouKnowWho]

A: This is my opinion.
B: This is my opinion.
A: ...

If A

- responds to B's post, that will be "argument".
- don't, either people may think that A agrees with B, or A just totally dis-respect B's opinion and ignore B's post.

It's a lose-lose situation no matter which way A may take. Sometime just trying to keep the discussion going can lead into ugly argument or even personal attack.

[anerlich]

Sometime just trying to keep the discussion going can lead into ugly argument or even personal attack.

This isn't a discussion. It is Hendrik lecturing and pontificating, and everyone else telling him (rightly IMO) that he is talking out of his a$$.

[Hendrik]

]Please do not try to deflect the inquiry I am making. You said this ancient wing chun stuff produces better results so I am asking about that.----------


There is no deflect your inquiry here. But a communication issue which needs to resolve.

As previous, I ask you specific questions and
pointing to specific details , instead of getting to open end term such as fighting, mma, pro , which can means many things by different people .


Instead,

I told you specifically, it is about the art of Wck, focus on siu lin tau in particular, the six elements of siu lin tau development, and very specifically zoom into the coherence state which is one of the six elememente.







Another deflection. Why can't you answer my question? Is the art passed down from Leung Jan or Yip Man wing chun yes or no? -------


If not, TST will not use the term Nim Lik. Nim Lik needs a coherence state to handle. If you are in yip man lineage don't you know that already?

As for how good or how many in Yip man lineage get it or how effective the teaching compare with using the modern measurable biofeedback machine, I leave it for those who check it out to reply .





To fight successfully against skilled people requires skill. Skill is ability. That ability comes from training. A bjj fighter or boxer does to just win because of natural ability but training. The individual's performance justifies his training by showing how well it worked. If you cannot justify your martial art by fighting how would you? By EEG? -------

Siu Lin tau development by ancient 1850 definition cover the six core elements as I have present in details and holistically.

How many core elements has one train in? How many core elements has one master directly influence the person basic skill, even in today's scientific standard.

Fighting means one needs to know how to handle physiological state for optimal result . Mind is a part of the equation. EEG is a direct measure of the mind. Emwave I present above is more then EEG because it deal with breathing, heart rhythm , and mind.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=related&v=q9Nsm1U0CpY






This is another deflection. You brought up how knowing the history and ancient context would make training today better. -------


Without knowing the ancient one doesn't know the six core elements, and thus, one doesn't have a full development for ones siu lin tau.

It is clearly presented above, but you have a different mindset. Thus, not comprehend.





If you make claims of superior results do not then try to back off with this is only a thread about history.--------


As above, there is no back off. But if you doesn't comprehend. I would not force you to think different. You have your freedom of thinking And see things as you like to see even if it is not what in front of you






If your opinion is SLT was in ancient times concerned with achieving samadhi or enlightenment that is one thing. That is not something I am interested in. But you went further and talked about getting better results. I now see you did not mean better results in using your martial art but in changing your brain waves or whatever.
You should put up a disclaimer. ------


You are free to have your mind set and the way you like to think. Above is pretty clear how things fit together in a systematic way. From big picture of the six core elements and its details.






So in your view the purpose of wing chun is to get into samadhi state? Quite frankly I practice wing chun as a martial art and that stuff I have no interest in.-------




You always free to have your mind set.

Samadhi is just an ancient term, for today.

In reality

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=sSXMGDpxYxE&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DsSXMGDpxYxE


Slt is high tech even in today's standard.

But if you don't appreciate it. You are free to believe what you like.


For those who follow me, this is the pre requisite for " fist issue from heart " one needs to be able to use the heart. Meaning to shift state. That is one reason slt is practice slowly, there are multi dimentional biofeedback training within slt practice. With today's high tech we can go pin point them. Not to mention, the handling of the force change trajectory which the Chinese called Jin or kent in Cantonese.





Maybe that is someone's ancient definition but that does not mean it is the definition for all wing chun. It also does not mean we are stuck with it because like Leung Jan or Yip Man we are not the slaves to anyone's definition or idea.-------


Feel free to have your mind set.

However, without having the six core elements cover, one doesn't develop Wck slt fully. That is a fact no one can avoid.

[YouKnowWho]

This isn't a discussion. It is Hendrik lecturing and pontificating, and everyone else telling him (rightly IMO) that he is talking out of his a$$.

Agree! Since Hendrik started this thread, he should respect other's opinions and just put himself into "listen" mode. That's what I would do.


Why do we need to go back?
Good question. I have mentioned this before. If

- Bill Gates wanted to go back to his DOS root (he bought from some), we won't have WINDOW today.
- Steve Jobs wanted to go back to his Apple Lisa root (it came from Zerox STAR), we won't have IPOT today.

[Hendrik]

So I brought the

Siu Lin tau , according to the ancient has six elements,

Body development including body structure,
mind development including coherence state,
Breathing development including deep lower abs breathing.
Qi development including energy channeling in different part of the physical body.
Force change development including power generation, force trajectory , and force flow.
Momentum development including momentum manipulation ,strategy, and generation.

Those are what one develop in siu Lin tau.

And the scientific measurement issue such as the biofeedback or even force flow trajectory.


My view is skill needs to be able to measure and cover different area holistically. Instead of making the statement "let fight and show me how good are you."

The ancient siu Lin tau do design with holistic coverage with the six core elements, with today's high tech, one can have aids to develop the skill more effectively. What once very difficult to communicate such as coherence now is simple to communicate.


Samadhi state in slt?
Let see what the pro do today

http://www.mjms.ukim.edu.mk/Online/MJMS_2010_3_2/MJMS.1857-5773.2010-0098.pdf

[Hendrik]

Listen to others opinion doesn't mean taking person attack or verbal abuse from others.
Those are not opinions.




Agree! Since Hendrik started this thread, he should respect other's opinions and just put himself into "listen" mode. That's what I would do.


Good question. I have mentioned this before. If

- Bill Gates wanted to go back to his DOS root (he bought from some), we won't have WINDOW today.
- Steve Jobs wanted to go back to his Apple Lisa root (it came from Zerox STAR), we won't have IPOT today.

[JPinAZ]

You are an interesting guy, can't show legitimate evidence and as usual turn into personal attack.


No personal attacks, just facts. Not my problem if you can't deal with them.

[JPinAZ]

My view is skill needs to be able to measure and cover different area holistically. Instead of making the statement "let fight and show me how good are you."

Interestingly enough, there is no proof that any of what you speak of actually works when we watch your clips because you can't even do what you are going on about..


The ancient siu Lin tau do design with holistic coverage with the six core elements, with today's high tech, one can have aids to develop the skill more effectively. What once very difficult to communicate such as coherence now is simple to communicate.

Hmmm... Ancient SLT, again, I thought it was all one set? Don't you see how stupid you sound?

[hunt1]

Amazing to read essentially the same arguments going on for last 15 years or so!

. The wing chun I practice comes from 2 sources Yip Man and Lo Kwai through his grand nephew Chou Ng Kwai. In memory of my friend Danny Chou's wishes I will interject just a bit. Danny thought very highly of Hendricks knowledge. The Chou family preserves the writings of Lo Kwai to this day although I admit I don't read or speak Chinese so it could be some cook books with wing chun drawings. Lo Kwai is quite clear that Leung Jan learned from 2 teachers. Wong Wa Boh taught a single form and Leung Yee Tai taught several San Sik. Leung Jan worked with His Sifu's to combine the teachings . They developed the 3 forms . Fok Bo Chuen was a younger student who was taught 3 forms from Wong Wa Bo after the forms were put together. The single form contained much the same material that Hendrick refers too. We retain a 4th form that is similar to the single form Wong Wah Bo taught Leung Jan originally. The other form's, pole, knives and dummy took shape under Leung Jan but were not wholly completed in a set form.

Lo Kwai was Leung Jan's knife man and those that follow the Leung Jan/Lo Kwai knife form use the butcher knives. Lo Kwai honed his knife skills while working as a butcher and this type of knife allowed him to work and practice at the same time . The stabbing knives are equally valid but some methods are modified between the different type of knives.

I know very little of the Yik Kam sytem however I do know that often Hendrick has posted things that I too was taught even though our wing chun last had a connection on the Red Boats and has been split for 160 or so years.

[tc101]

Mr Hendrik's definition to use his word of wing chun is sticking to what his and I emphasize his ancient ancestors wrote down. If that is how he sees wing chun and what he wants to practice he has my best wishes.

My perspective is that wing chun is what we have now, what has come down to us from our teachers and lineage holders like Leung Jan and Yip Man and Sum Nung and so on. These are the guys that fought and took their experiences into their art and continued to refine it, modify it and so on. That process goes on today as it should.

My beef if you want to call it that with Mr Hendrik is when he says you will get superior results with his way. This is the same old claim you hear time and time again, my way is superior or better or whatever. Why is it always my way is better or right but those wrong people can beat me silly? Then he insults those wing chun people who train to a level where they can deal with pro level fighters by saying they are just born talented and it is not their training and efforts that produced their results.

[Hendrik]

It is a great lost that we lost Danny, it is via him I got the confirmation of the one set practice within the Leung Jan family . Or the pre 1855 teaching of Wck. Accompany with the snake crane wing chun lineage note book of 1890. We come to these conclusion.

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/scwc-tai-pingheavenlykingdomrevolutionerawingchuntransmissi onscwcykwaa-22229730


There are people who don't care about the history and ancient art side, but focus on fighting. That is perfectly fine.

However, to those who has interest in the art, many of us from different lineages trying our best to preserve as much as we can for the future generation to come. None of us are perfect, but similar to Danny, we do our very best as much as we can. We don't do it for money or fame. But to preserve things as close to the original as we can.

I get into biofeedback because we need a modern communication medial to convey what the ancient mean in our time. To dymistify the subject. Hoping someday western world has equal understanding on the Wck ancestors knowledge .

If siu Lin tau lost the six core elements, it will no longer be complete. If Wck lost the slt it will be paralyzed. As white crane lost its San chin set and shock power generation. If we don't open these up for the Wck public, things will be lost 30 years from today where my generation is gone. Actually more and more wcners in my generation are doing everything they can to preserve what they inherit. Another great example is the wing chun concept YouTube by ipman lineage staring siu Lui Ming Fei. Non of us has the complete Wck but gather together what we all have present the rich wing chun kuen art.

I personally thought Europe might be the next location for these rich art and history of Wck to be implant and grow. Because European has a love for culture and art more then other country. Sometimes, even more then the modern Chinese.

Same with gm Ipman filming his sets before he passed away, we release information which we have inherited honestly and openly to the public. It is not for sale but for those who is interest in carry on the art of wck. Danny has left us but his is always remembered because without him I would not be able to confirm, Yes. Leung Jan lineage has the one set system.




Amazing to read essentially the same arguments going on for last 15 years or so!

. The wing chun I practice comes from 2 sources Yip Man and Lo Kwai through his grand nephew Chou Ng Kwai. In memory of my friend Danny Chou's wishes I will interject just a bit. Danny thought very highly of Hendricks knowledge. The Chou family preserves the writings of Lo Kwai to this day although I admit I don't read or speak Chinese so it could be some cook books with wing chun drawings

[Hendrik]

How can a presentation of ancient 1850 red boat era WCK information from a collection of many different lineage family technically is an insult? It is not my way but the Wck ancestors way. So why shoot the messages?

When it comes to biofeedback the pro and Olympic players are using it too. That is the scientific result and proof that the Wck ancestors know what they ate talking about.





You sure are free to believe what you love. However, I would not buy into your accusation on me.

Such as

"Then he insults those wing chun people who train to a level where they can deal with pro level fighters by saying they are just born talented and it is not their training and efforts that produced their results."

That is your thinking not what I say.




So, please keep the discussion technical. And read what I post instead of read what you think instead of what I post.










Mr Hendrik's definition to use his word of wing chun is sticking to what his and I emphasize his ancient ancestors wrote down. If that is how he sees wing chun and what he wants to practice he has my best wishes.

My perspective is that wing chun is what we have now, what has come down to us from our teachers and lineage holders like Leung Jan and Yip Man and Sum Nung and so on. These are the guys that fought and took their experiences into their art and continued to refine it, modify it and so on. That process goes on today as it should.

My beef if you want to call it that with Mr Hendrik is when he says you will get superior results with his way. This is the same old claim you hear time and time again, my way is superior or better or whatever. Why is it always my way is better or right but those wrong people can beat me silly? Then he insults those wing chun people who train to a level where they can deal with pro level fighters by saying they are just born talented and it is not their training and efforts that produced their results.

[anerlich]

- Steve Jobs wanted to go back to his Apple Lisa root (it came from Zerox STAR), we won't have IPOT today.

I think you mean Macintosh and Xerox. And iPod. Lisa basically tanked.

I know what you're getting at, but your analogy has nothing to do with Hendrik's, er, unique views.

In the cases of both Gates and Jobs they took ideas that others had thought up and drove them to the next level.

Windows per today was based on a lot more than DOS (and arguably accelerated because of what Apple was doing). Windows up to v3 was a visual shell on top of DOS, NT 4.0 was based on DEC VMS and a other stuff.

Workable computing arguably developed originally because of wartime demands for artillery targeting and codebreaking, and developed further, especially on the time of Gates and Jobs, because of market forces, a great deal of innovation on borrowed ideas, etc. There is no 1850's version of computing that has supposedly been lost or kept secret.

If computing were like Hendrik says WC is we'd all be researching back to the time of Charles Babbage and throwing out our electronic computers for mechanical difference engines. A working difference engine based on Babbage's ideas and plans was developed in 1991, but no one sane is suggesting we should throw out their iPhones because "authentic historical" computing was finally implemented or rediscovered.

[anerlich]

But now on with a machine of $160 one can get it in a week of practice.


And thus, we do know the ancient know the existing of this coherence state when they design the slt set. But their teaching is not effective to get across. But today, via high tech one can get it very effectively.

Some people think that by taking entheogens they can reach the states of enlightenment generally only reached by decades of spiritual practice in a matter of hours.

This sounds about as likely as that.

You present the coherence state as a set of physical parameters to be matched; if you do that, you win. The question begged is whether what you won has any real value or practical application.

[Vajramusti]

I have not been following the thread very well. But FYi FWIW IMO...and all that.
Three forms of wing chun become one single form with proper practice over time for those who stuck with the different requirements in various stages of the form.
Biu gee was for those few who stayed on the development path.

[Hendrik]

Joy,

IMHO,
As soon as having the same content it doesn't matter three or one.

As for what happen in the history, hunt 1 has an excellent sharing on the three and one form.


Preserving the content and the history of evolution is what we do, similar to doctor keep a record. So we know the track. Nothing more. No statement of superiority because none of us individual has it all but we all collectively. We can see the full view.



I have not been following the thread very well. But FYi FWIW IMO...and all that.
Three forms of wing chun become one single form with proper practice over time for those who stuck with the different requirements in various stages of the form.
Biu gee was for those few who stayed on the development path.

[Hendrik]

Try it,

you have nothing to lose but much to gain,
get to the coherence state and then practice slt and see for yourself what do you develop in term of handling of the body and mind. And after that you know when and how to switch state when the body and mind stuck up. Because now you have handle. More degree of freedom.

Now we can have a standard reference on what is coherence state where the ancient called is enter into silence which means the thought drop off. But one cannot imagine that state due to , how to imagine or thinking the state of thought dropping off? So, using the machine to calibrate is much effective then screwing with the thought and stuck.


When the breathing drop under 4 rep per min, and coherence, there is where the Qi circulation surface. It is human body phenomenon. But without coherence and low breathing rate one cannot enter to these layer or stablalized, And thus, it is like a lock , lock one out from slt development.


In slt practice Layer by layer, it will open up. Starting with physical, mind, breathing, Qi. Now we have machine to help.





The first five of the Yik Kam Wing Chun , Siu Nin Tau set Writing Part 1

Y1聚意會神平肩檔。
Focus the intention, union with the awareness ,while standing the equal shoulder stance
Y2兩手前起分陰陽
Two Hands Front Raise Divide into Yin and Yang.
Y3左腿跘出有善惡。
The trip out of Left leg has positive and negative effects.
Y4右跟屈勁緊反藏
The bending power of the right heel tightly store in the reverse direction.
Y5會合丹田督脈降。
Union in the Dan tian , Du medirian sink.



Now we know how to communicate these writing, which even the chinese has difficulites to explain if they have no experience ,via high tech with direct experience.

"Focus the intention, union with the awareness " is enter into coherence state .

"Union in the Dan Tian" is happen naturally when breathing is deep and goes under 4 reps per min in general within coherence state.


One cannot imaging or think about these , one has to be there and experience to know. And the machine can lead one there. This is just to recognize what it is. But still needs lots of practice and further coaching. It is not enlightenment but know what the heck the ancient is talking about. Otherwise, don't know what is going on and has no good effective way to train.

It is not something magic but just another degree of freedom. What you win is another degree of freedom to handle your body and mind. Where you have no handling before . Nothing mysterious. This is the beginning of Chinese internal art. The gate way into the art.


It takes the old timer years or never to identify these but now via high tech a week. And it will help you to deal with your daily life too. Siu Lin tau is about living in balance.


Btw.
This coherence state is not enlightenment break thought state or satori of zen.
That is a different dimension not a state. But all qigong needs to start with this coherence type of state .or as it called the silence.

In Wck kuen kuit, it says " come accept.... ect , using silence to handle action. "

That silence is the coherence state.

It is not about theory or concept or philosophy ,but state one can get it.







Some people think that by taking entheogens they can reach the states of enlightenment generally only reached by decades of spiritual practice in a matter of hours.

This sounds about as likely as that.

You present the coherence state as a set of physical parameters to be matched; if you do that, you win. The question begged is whether what you won has any real value or practical application.

[tc101]

Try it,

you have nothing to lose but much to gain,


Ok this is what I am talking about. Are we talking about gains in martial skill since this is a martial art or some other gain like inner peace or better digestion?

If gains in martial skill how do you know that this sort of practice will give you any gains? Can you name anyone who can put this training to work in sparring?

There is also plenty to lose. Like most people I have limited training time so I want to make the most of it or to put it another way get the most gain for the effort I put in. Wasting training time is in my perspective a huge loss. So before I go doing this or that I want to see the benefit to doing it with my eyes.

It is a wonderful thing you are researching or cataloging some of the practices of our ancestors but this claim goes beyond that mere collecting of information or presentation of it. Now you are claiming things about it.

[anerlich]

you have nothing to lose but much to gain,

There is an opportunity cost in time if nothing else. I have my self-respect to lose, as well as the $160 for the machine.

How do you know there are no adverse affects? Personal experience and anecdotal evidence do not scientific proof make. Have you done mass trials over several years?


What you win is another degree of freedom to handle your body and mind. Where you have no handling before .

You might feel you have achieved this ... others may well disagree.

Are you are walking talking advertisement for your method? If so, the benefits must be subjective, and certainly not obvious.

I could become like you? Thanks, but backsliding holds no appeal.

[Hendrik]

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=sSXMGDpxYxE&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DsSXMGDpxYxE



Ok this is what I am talking about. Are we talking about gains in martial skill since this is a martial art or some other gain like inner peace or better digestion?

If gains in martial skill how do you know that this sort of practice will give you any gains? Can you name anyone who can put this training to work in sparring?

There is also plenty to lose. Like most people I have limited training time so I want to make the most of it or to put it another way get the most gain for the effort I put in. Wasting training time is in my perspective a huge loss. So before I go doing this or that I want to see the benefit to doing it with my eyes.

It is a wonderful thing you are researching or cataloging some of the practices of our ancestors but this claim goes beyond that mere collecting of information or presentation of it. Now you are claiming things about it.

[Hendrik]

http://www.heartmath.org/faqs/research/research-faqs.html
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=related&v=q9Nsm1U0CpY
http://www.resperate.com/us/welcome/index.aspx

Ancient Chinese and modern scientis or USA FDA .... Are just human. No mysterious or super human.




There is an opportunity cost in time if nothing else. I have my self-respect to lose, as well as the $160 for the machine.

How do you know there are no adverse affects?

Are you are walking talking advertisement for your method? If so, the benefits must be subjective, and certainly not obvious.

[tc101]

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=sSXMGDpxYxE&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DsSXMGDpxYxE

It's great that the biofeedback was practiced by the curling team to deal with the stress response associated with curling but interestingly the boxing and wrestling teams bypassed it. So when can you show one person using this training in their sparring?

[Hendrik]

http://www.louiseellis.com/boxing-biofeedback-neurofeedback

http://www.mjms.ukim.edu.mk/Online/MJMS_2010_3_2/MJMS.1857-5773.2010-0098.pdf


It's great that the biofeedback was practiced by the curling team to deal with the stress response associated with curling but interestingly the boxing and wrestling teams bypassed it. So when can you show one person using this training in their sparring?

[tc101]

http://www.heartmath.org/faqs/research/research-faqs.html
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=related&v=q9Nsm1U0CpY
http://www.resperate.com/us/welcome/index.aspx

Ancient Chinese and modern scientis or USA FDA .... Are just human. No mysterious or super human.

You really are not serious are you?

[anerlich]

http://www.heartmath.org/faqs/research/research-faqs.html

Pseudoscientific claptrap



http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=related&v=q9Nsm1U0CpY
http://www.resperate.com/us/welcome/index.aspx

Ancient Chinese and modern scientis or USA FDA .... Are just human. No mysterious or super human.

Biofeedback. So what? I never said it wasn't scientific or useful.

I'm saying it won't do all the things that you claim it will, and doesn't appear to have done so for you personally.

[Hendrik]

You think USA FDA not serious to clear the machine?



You really are not serious are you?

[tc101]

So your big revelation is all this ancient ancestor stuff was really biofeedback before they had the machines and that with it I can focus better, lower my blood pressure, and so forth?

[Hendrik]

You must be a great fortune teller who can read me without meetint me and knowing me at all.

Do you read tea leafs? :D



Pseudoscientific claptrap



Biofeedback. So what? I never said it wasn't scientific or useful.

I'm saying it won't do all the things that you claim it will, and doesn't appear to have done so for you personally.

[Hendrik]

That is not what I post.




So your big revelation is all this ancient ancestor stuff was really biofeedback before they had the machines and that with it I can focus better, lower my blood pressure, and so forth?

[tc101]

That is not what I post.

Was that not you who posted all the links about biofeedback?

[Hendrik]

Please read my posts.



Was that not you who posted all the links about biofeedback?

[tc101]

Please read my posts.

Was that not you who posted all the links about biofeedback?

[anerlich]

You think USA FDA not serious to clear the machine?

I expect they were.

not sure what this has to do with any of your claims, other than a very small intersection involving biofeedback.

[anerlich]

That is not what I post.

Yes it is!

[tc101]

Yes it is!

Perhaps all that biofeedback does have negative effects.

[anerlich]

You must be a great fortune teller who can read me without meetint me and knowing me at all.

Do you read tea leafs?

No, I've had the misfortune of watching some of your video "demonstrations" and "evidence".

[wkmark]

Please read my posts.

Hendrik,

You have posted your red boat wing chun in almost 3 different forums and 1 wing chun exchange group on fb. Okay.. we get it.. you want to preserve history. But really, is it necessary to keep sprouting it like you are trying to change the world or something?

Honestly, I try not to go into the threads that you start, but it gets very very annoying when EVERY OTHER threads are by you on the same topic in the other forums! Explain your red boat stuff one on one thread and keep it as that please. Stop cluttering up ALL the threads!

[Hendrik]

You don't have to read my post. You don't even have to come in here.

There is no reason for you to come to this thread to complain what should or what not to post in open forum. Not to mention I don't go to your personal area to post , and this is a public forum.


Let those who is interested discuss. And those who has no interest past.

You are violating others and my free speech right. You have no right to do censorship . Sharing information in Asia and USA equality is threading everyone equally without discrimination. Many urge me to present whatever I present in Chinese with English. I hope you know that.

So, past my post if you dont like my post, because whatever I post and where i post got nothing to do with you but many audience who are interested in the information. . And I don't go force you to read my posts.


As for change the world, what to Change? Facts are facts. Unless you have fear on facing facture reality which is there in the first place .








Hendrik,

You have posted your red boat wing chun in almost 3 different forums and 1 wing chun exchange group on fb. Okay.. we get it.. you want to preserve history. But really, is it necessary to keep sprouting it like you are trying to change the world or something?

Honestly, I try not to go into the threads that you start, but it gets very very annoying when EVERY OTHER threads are by you on the same topic in the other forums! Explain your red boat stuff one on one thread and keep it as that please. Stop cluttering up ALL the threads!

[GlennR]

There is no reason for you to come to this thread to complain what should or what not to post in open forum. Not to mention I don't go to your personal area to post , and this is a public forum.


Let those who is interested discuss. And those who has no interest past.

You are violating others and my free speech right. You have no right to do censorship . I hope you know that.

So, past it because whatever I post and where i post got nothing to do with you.

And you have no right to tell him what he can or cant do on a PUBLIC forum.

If you want to put up your own theories ,without fear of challenge, then start your own little "Hendrick Ideas Rule" forum and then everyone will be happy.

Otherwise, stop moaning about people taking you to task on your ideas

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think you can start a thread and only want to hear whatever that you like to hear. When you open your window, not only butterflies will fly in, mosquitos will fly in to.

It will be nice that when you start a thread, people will say:

- Agree with you 100% (No new information added).
- Excellent. Keey up the good work (It's so fake for people to say that).
- I wish I can live near by you so I can learn from you everyday (didn't mention that he will pay you).
- ...

Sometime the reality is not as pretty as we would like to see.

[Hendrik]

He is violating my free speech right. I have all right to tell him that is unacceptable .

As for you, you are just trying everything to revenge your hate on me. You will twist anything everything and fine every chance you can. Hahaha. That is expected from you.


And you have no right to tell him what he can or cant do on a PUBLIC forum.

If you want to put up your own theories ,without fear of challenge, then start your own little "Hendrick Ideas Rule" forum and then everyone will be happy.

Otherwise, stop moaning about people taking you to task on your ideas

[Hendrik]

There is a different to violate others speech right and state opposition idea which is good for discussion.





I don't think you can start a thread and only want to hear whatever that you like to hear. When you open your window, not only butterflies will fly in, mosquitos will fly in to.

It will be nice that when you start a thread, people will say:

- Agree with you 100% (No new information added).
- Excellent. Keey up the good work (It's so fake for people to say that).
- I wish I can live near by you so I can learn from you everyday (This will make you feel real good even if that person can't pay you).
- ...

Sometime the reality is not as pretty as we would like to see.

[GlennR]

He is violating my free speech right. I have all right to tell him that is unacceptable .

As for you, you just trying everything to revenge your hate on me.

No, he is disagreeing with you.......... deal with it.

And you seem obsessed with me hating you??

Hardly.... i think youre hilarious!

[Hendrik]

Whatever you say. Twister. Hahaha


No, he is disagreeing with you.......... deal with it.

And you seem obsessed with me hating you??

Hardly.... i think youre hilarious!

[YouKnowWho]

We have 2 groups of people here.

Group 1: Only care about "fist meets face" (like myself :D).

Group 2: Care about history, theory, health, self-cultivation, inner peace, performance, ...

How can we have any discussion that only allow one group but not the other?

[GlennR]

Whatever you say. Twister. Hahaha

Well whatever i say makes a lot more sense than what you say, so that seams like a good idea.

Any tips youd like?

How to win friends and influence people perhaps?

[Hendrik]

Got nothing todo with what you post.

How long I didn't post in this forum?

Take a look at the date.

Now, I start posting yesterday , and this guy come here to complain

"Honestly, I try not to go into the threads that you start, but it gets very very annoying when EVERY OTHER threads are by you on the same topic in the other forums! Stop cluttering up ALL the threads!"









We have 2 groups of people here.

Group 1: Only care about "fist meets face" (like myself :D).

Group 2: Care about history, theory, health, self-cultivation, inner peace, performance, ...

How can we have any discussion that only allow one group but not the other?

[Hendrik]

Sure, keep it for yourself.

Not interested to win friends and influence people. I don't run political group.

Those are friends are friends , those who is not is accepted .



Well whatever i say makes a lot more sense than what you say, so that seams like a good idea.

Any tips youd like?

How to win friends and influence people perhaps?

[YouKnowWho]

How long I didn't post in this forum?
I understand how you feel.

Maybe you (general YOU) should only share information when people ask for it. When you try to share information without people's asking, people may think that you try to force them to give up their opinions and replaced by your opinion.

Here is one simple example.

If I go to a Judo forum and tell those Judo guys that Judo came from Chinese Shuai Chiao. Chinese SC is their root. They have been doing Judo wrong for all those years. I'm will to help them to go back to the ancient way. Those Judo guys won't treat me nicely and that's for sure.

I may quite Judo forum for 3 years. Next time I go back and still tell them that their Judo way is wrong and I can help them with the right way. I don't think they will like me the 2nd time I go back either.

[JPinAZ]

We have 2 groups of people here.

Group 1: Only care about "fist meets face" (like myself :D).

Group 2: Care about history, theory, health, self-cultivation, inner peace, performance, ...

How can we have any discussion that only allow one group but not the other?

I actually like both. Probably more group 1 than group 2, but both are interesting. IMO, if you watch hendrik's videos, he's clearly not group 1 yet you can see none of the benefits gained by him chasing after group 2. So it's tough to have a discussion with him in regards to any of it. :confused:

[Hendrik]

John,


I agree with you.


There are more then 700 read this thread so, there is no questions many is reading my post

As for this particular person, he doesn't even has to enter this thread if he is not interested , no one go force him to come here to read the post.

It is like I go to your home and complain the color of your living room. That is just too much. That is none my business on how you like to paint your home.





I understand how you feel.

Maybe you (general YOU) should only share information when people ask for it. When you try to share information without people's asking, people may think that you try to force them to give up their opinions and replaced by your opinion.

Here is one simple example.

If I go to a Judo forum and tell those Judo guys that Judo came from Chinese Shuai Chiao. Chinese SC is their root. They have been doing Judo wrong for all those years. I'm will to help them to go back to the ancient way. Those Judo guys won't treat me nicely and that's for sure.

I may quite Judo forum for 3 years. Next time I go back and still tell them that their Judo way is wrong and I can help them with the right way. I don't think they will like me the 2nd time I go back either.

[anerlich]

You are violating others and my free speech right. You have no right to do censorship . I hope you know that.

No one is stopping you from posting or censoring you. We're opining to you that we think what you post, and have every right to post, is to a large degree unsubstantiated rubbish.

I hope you know that.

[JPinAZ]

Amazing to read essentially the same arguments going on for last 15 years or so!

. The wing chun I practice comes from 2 sources Yip Man and Lo Kwai through his grand nephew Chou Ng Kwai. In memory of my friend Danny Chou's wishes I will interject just a bit. Danny thought very highly of Hendricks knowledge. The Chou family preserves the writings of Lo Kwai to this day although I admit I don't read or speak Chinese so it could be some cook books with wing chun drawings. Lo Kwai is quite clear that Leung Jan learned from 2 teachers. Wong Wa Boh taught a single form and Leung Yee Tai taught several San Sik. Leung Jan worked with His Sifu's to combine the teachings . They developed the 3 forms . Fok Bo Chuen was a younger student who was taught 3 forms from Wong Wa Bo after the forms were put together. The single form contained much the same material that Hendrick refers too. We retain a 4th form that is similar to the single form Wong Wah Bo taught Leung Jan originally. The other form's, pole, knives and dummy took shape under Leung Jan but were not wholly completed in a set form.

Lo Kwai was Leung Jan's knife man and those that follow the Leung Jan/Lo Kwai knife form use the butcher knives. Lo Kwai honed his knife skills while working as a butcher and this type of knife allowed him to work and practice at the same time . The stabbing knives are equally valid but some methods are modified between the different type of knives.

I know very little of the Yik Kam sytem however I do know that often Hendrick has posted things that I too was taught even though our wing chun last had a connection on the Red Boats and has been split for 160 or so years.

I appreciate you sharing your view, but it is hard for me to believe that LJ created the 3 forms from one. Please let me explain, and hope this makes sense :)

I am from HFY lineage, and we do not trace our are thru red boats. So, we do not come from LJ teaching, yet we have 3 forms (SNT/CK/BJ). Also, history points back to 1850's when these changes we all see in WCK start to take place. One group is red boat opera with Wong Wah Bo & LYT and another is mainland Red Bandanna Boxer Society from Hung Gun Biu.

Now, if LJ were to have created 3 sets from one AFTER the 1850's, all mainland boxer society WCK would still be one set since they were not connected to LJ. But this is not the case. So it stands to reason that since 2 separate lines coming from 1850's split all have 3 sets, then it couldn't have been all one set after 1850 for LJ to break up into 3 (unless someone put them all together after and then split them again - highly doubtful)

The only argument for one long super set that could make would be that it was this way prior to the 1850's split and broken up into 3 sets also prior to this time. Again, highly doubtful with how important SNT is on it's own, but possible I guess.

But really, it doesn't matter much. If someone wants to chain all 3 sets together into one while practicing, who cares?

[anerlich]

It is like I go to your home and complain the color of your living room.

It is nothing like that. This is not "your forum". And we're not complaining about the forum itself, just taking issue with you, some of your opinions, and your generally condescending tone.

[Hendrik]

I am from HFY lineage, and we do not trace our are thru red boats. So, we do not come from LJ teaching, yet we have 3 forms (SNT/CK/BJ). Also, history points back to 1850's when these changes we all see in WCK start to take place. One group is red boat opera with Wong Wah Bo & LYT and another is mainland Red Bandanna Boxer Society from Hung Gun Biu.




Why is your snt has yip man Wck signature
and do not have red boat 1850 Wck signature?
Since it doesn't have 1850 red boat Wck DNA , wouldn't it a different art?

Care to share?

[Hendrik]

1. So what is ipman Wck signature ?



Take a look at this chan wah soon snt set. At 9.0 it has a section before the Sam bai fut fool sau section.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D_IEej1FpJwo


Take a look at 0.24, now with yks snt, the same section exist even it is now yks snt no longer chan wah soon snt.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=PDpx5juWHX0&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DPDpx5juWHX0



Take a look at 0.1 , now with snake crane snt. The same section exist even it is another red boat lineage.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Yqb3PrtN5sY&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DYqb3PrtN5sY



Take a look at 1.54, now yik kam slt. The same section exist even it is another different lineage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g77i-pznhtA



All four red boat Wck lineages has that same section or the snake section even though the movement varies.



Now,

In ipman Wck, this section has been evolved away. Take a look at .05

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=uy3_nSXpBLw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Duy3_nSXpBLw


That evolve away is ipman Wck signature in snt. Nothing good or bad but a signature of ipman lineage. Ipman lineages has that section as other lineages in the biu Jee set. So, one must not thinking ipman lineage missed the section.


As for the four red boat Wck lineages even after 160 years , be it a single set system as yik kam. Or yks three sets system still keep that signature.



2. What is the red boat wck snt signature?

The above snake section and the section come after it or the Sam bai fut section are sometimes refer as snake reel and crane withstand section or simply the snake and crane section.

These two sections are the core of red boat era Wck .even kulo pinsan Wck has these two sections if one watch late gm Fung chun video. As in the following clip


http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=V5cqRp-YtuM&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DV5cqRp-YtuM


These two sections the soul of Wck which develop the foundation of the Wck art.

As we can see after 160 years since 1850 , five different lineages of red boat related Wck still keep them .






3. Now, Why is a Wck of 1850 doesn't have these core of Wck in its snt as the five lineages above?

A logical reason is it is a different art.

[JPinAZ]

Why is your snt has yip man Wck signature
and do not have red boat 1850 Wck signature?
Since it doesn't have 1850 red boat Wck DNA , wouldn't it a different art?

Care to share?

Wow, you really are a moron. You ask so many stupid questions I don't know where to start.

I don't know what you're talking about with this 'Yip Man signature' and 'red boat signature' nonsense. First you say my SNT looks like 'YM signature' (and we all know YM is from red boat wck). And then in very the same sentence you say my SNT doesn't have red boat signature . You can't even keep your mind clear long enough for a single sentence! You do realize YM wc is red boat wc?? Any sane person can see you have no idea what you're talking about
And you're supposed to be an engineer?? You should be fired on the spot!

Now listen close crazy man, as I'm getting very tired of repeating myself to you - all WC will have 'WC signature' - because they all come from the same source. So if someone sees similarities between HFY and another WC lineage that is no surprise - they are all WC! But any sane person looking at both forms will see there are also many differences. But you won't see them because you don't even understand the most simple ideas of WCK

So for the last time, no matter what you think or how many times you try so desperately to say otherwise, HFY is not red boat wing chun and not from yip man. But since you are so attached and interesting in my WC, I will be more than happy to come show you what it is. just let me know when you want me to visit ;)

Otherwise, I have no more to say to you.

[Hendrik]

How can HFY be the same art with wing chun from the red boat? Different founder different art type DNA. Different snt?





Hfy history , no Yim wing chun, founder = tan sau NG, art type shaolin .

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=xUPUpT5BFNg&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DxUPUpT5BFNg




Wing chun kuen according to Dr. LJ grand student late gm Fung chun, on Yim wing chun. Founder NG Mui art type white crane from fujian, Mui soon art type snake from emei ?



http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=aw9sphTMAY0&list=FL6pQB3CKazNhYpkoq1yqayA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Daw9sphTMAY0%26list%3DFL 6pQB3CKazNhYpkoq1yqayA



I have perfect respect toward HFY but it doesn't seem to be the same type of art with wing chun kuen from the red boat based on the above. Of cause I could be deadly wrong .



Wow, you really are a moron. You ask so many stupid questions I don't know where to start.

I don't know what you're talking about with this 'Yip Man signature' and 'red boat signature' nonsense. First you say my SNT looks like 'YM signature' (and we all know YM is from red boat wck). And then in very the same sentence you say my SNT doesn't have red boat signature . You can't even keep your mind clear long enough for a single sentence! You do realize YM wc is red boat wc?? Any sane person can see you have no idea what you're talking about
And you're supposed to be an engineer?? You should be fired on the spot!

Now listen close crazy man, as I'm getting very tired of repeating myself to you - all WC will have 'WC signature' - because they all come from the same source. So if someone sees similarities between HFY and another WC lineage that is no surprise - they are all WC! But any sane person looking at both forms will see there are also many differences. But you won't see them because you don't even understand the most simple ideas of WCK

So for the last time, no matter what you think or how many times you try so desperately to say otherwise, HFY is not red boat wing chun and not from yip man. But since you are so attached and interesting in my WC, I will be more than happy to come show you what it is. just let me know when you want me to visit ;)

Otherwise, I have no more to say to you.

[GlennR]

Sure, keep it for yourself.

Not interested to win friends and influence people. I don't run political group.

Those are friends are friends , those who is not is accepted .

Ill give you one thing Hendrik... you do get the forum busy

[tc101]

I appreciate you sharing your view, but it is hard for me to believe that LJ created the 3 forms from one. Please let me explain, and hope this makes sense :)

I am from HFY lineage, and we do not trace our are thru red boats. So, we do not come from LJ teaching, yet we have 3 forms (SNT/CK/BJ). Also, history points back to 1850's when these changes we all see in WCK start to take place. One group is red boat opera with Wong Wah Bo & LYT and another is mainland Red Bandanna Boxer Society from Hung Gun Biu.

Now, if LJ were to have created 3 sets from one AFTER the 1850's, all mainland boxer society WCK would still be one set since they were not connected to LJ. But this is not the case. So it stands to reason that since 2 separate lines coming from 1850's split all have 3 sets, then it couldn't have been all one set after 1850 for LJ to break up into 3 (unless someone put them all together after and then split them again - highly doubtful)

The only argument for one long super set that could make would be that it was this way prior to the 1850's split and broken up into 3 sets also prior to this time. Again, highly doubtful with how important SNT is on it's own, but possible I guess.

But really, it doesn't matter much. If someone wants to chain all 3 sets together into one while practicing, who cares?

This is not directed only at your post but yours is a good example of what I am talking about.

I am no authority on wing chun history but here is what I see going on with people discussing wing chun history. First many people have various informations from various sources. Second people assume some parts of it is true based mainly on what they want to be true. In this case that the HFY oral history is factual. Third no one ever considers what if my assumptions are not entirely true only what if other peoples assumtions are not. For example what if HFY lineage really began after the split? Then this account would be sensible. Now I am not assuming the LJ and WWB is true it could of course be wrong. I just think we need to really look at our assumptions.

I do agree with you that it is much ado about nothing. Three forms, one form, no forms these are just different ways of teaching the same art.

[tc101]

No one is stopping you from posting or censoring you. We're opining to you that we think what you post, and have every right to post, is to a large degree unsubstantiated rubbish.

I hope you know that.

I am not going this far. I think he may have lots of information like the info from hunt1. What I see him doing though is using parts of that info that support what he wants to believe already mainly through unspoken assumptions and jumping to conclusions that he wants to be true. I would much rather he just provided the info and all the info and let us draw our own conclusions. Instead he starts off by presenting his conclusions as fact then when questioned provides limited information that is cherry picked as support.

[Hendrik]

I do agree with you that it is much ado about nothing. Three forms, one form, no forms these are just different ways of teaching the same art.


Is this true?

Nope.




Evidentially,
The mind, breathing, qi, and force chance contents of The six core elements within siu Lin tau long set were either by passed or cut down when the one set split into three sets system.

The three level of training was cut into a single level training for the purpose of quickly training Wck fighters post 1855 , this by passed the traditional ancient Chinese internal training Which Wck has in the single long set.

Why do we know this is? Because we can compare the writing from the red boat era Wck on pre / post 1855 slt. And see which content were there or by passed at which period of time.


This splitting to three sets evolution starting Wck to greatly focus on the "application of the art " and defocus the development of the "body of the art." Which the one long set system keep in a balance focus manner. This act influence Wck in general since 1855 and lead many to think Wck is pure external art which consist of fighting technics only , or not be able to explain why the Sam bai fut section needs to perform slowly and what the training is for. Further more, for some it continuous to evolve into the present day believe of siu Lin tau training nothing and cause bad habit.


From understand the Wck history , DNA, and the evolution direction, we do know these above. if the six core elements where not restore in slt soon, within 30 years slt in general will become just a dry ritual without meaning, as one can see how yjkym evolve into a rigid stance, as one can see how in the past 30 years since Bruce lee era the art of Wck evolve toward this direction, due to unaware of the natural of ancient Chinese martial art going extreme toward application and dry out the body of the art development. Many today share this type of believe. And taking this type of believe as wing chun .

What wasn't know is slt is for develop the unqiue body of the art with the six core elements to support the application of the art or the ck and bj application set.


Thus, an important signature which can use to identify pre / post 1850 / modern Wck is to look at the set and see if the six core elements were clearly intact . If the emphasis is mainly on application technics but has no trace or very little trace of the six core elements, we do know, that type of art is an evolution after the split.

[tc101]

Is this true?

Nope.

Evidentially,
The mind, breathing, qi, and force chance contents of The six core elements within siu Lin tau long set were either by passed or cut down when the one set split into three sets system.

The three level of training was cut into a single level training for the purpose of quickly training Wck fighters post 1855 , this by passed the traditional ancient Chinese internal training Which Wck has in the single long set.

Why do we know this is? Because we can compare the writing from the red boat era Wck on pre / post 1855 slt. And see which content were there or by passed at which period of time.


No this is your conclusion and I emphasize CONCLUSION not fact based on your interpretation of what seems to be cherry picked information.

For example even in hunt1's account of WWB having one form, it is also a part of the story that YYT had no form yet was also a wing chun teacher of LJ.

Just because you have a writing from the red boat period does not mean what is written is factually true do you not understand that? Yip Man wrote down his story of the history too does that mean it is 100% true?



This splitting to three sets evolution starting Wck to greatly focus on the "application of the art " and defocus the development of the "body of the art." Which the one long set system keep in a balance focus manner. This act influence Wck in general since 1855 and lead many to think Wck is pure external art which consist of fighting technics only , or not be able to explain why the Sam bai fut section needs to perform slowly and what the training is for. Further more, for some it continuous to evolve into the present day believe of siu Lin tau training nothing and cause bad habit.


This is another part I do not agree with. Application cannot be separated from what you call the body of the art, they are one. Yes we can talk about them separately but the reality is they are not separate just different ways of looking at the same thing.



From understand the Wck history , DNA, and the evolution direction, we do know these above. Thus, if the six core elements where not restore in slt soon, within 30 years slt in general will become just a dry ritual without meaning, as one can see how passed 30 years since Bruce lee era the art of Wck evolve, due to unaware of the natural of ancient Chinese martial art content . going extreme toward application and dry out the body of the art development.

Here is another of your unsubstantiated claims. If your six core elements is so important to martial skill development in wing chun and you understand that and everyone else is missing it, then why can't you simply show how you can use these things to perform at a much higher performance level than everybody else? Why is it some poor wing chun guys ignorant of these wonderful six core elements can WITH THEIR WING CHUN TRAINING fight at pro level while you with them cannot? Please do not say this is because they are born fighters because generally they come from the same few wing chun schools.

[Hendrik]

No this is your conclusion and I emphasize CONCLUSION not fact based on your interpretation of what seems to be cherry picked information. -------



That is your opinion .

I report what is in black and white from the result of comparison the red boat era Wck slt training instruction from different red boat wck lineages. Not an outcome from one single lineage.





Just because you have a writing from the red boat period does not mean what is written is factually true do you not understand that? Yip Man wrote down his story of the history too does that mean it is 100% true?-------


It is not about A writing
but a collection of Writings and instructions from different known red boat era 1850 Wck lineages.


When the information from hunt1 lineage, snake crane lineage, yik kam llineage, and other wck lineages which are isolated for past 160 years match. There is no longer coincident . But statistically support conclusion.







This is another part I do not agree with. Application cannot be separated from what you call the body of the art, they are one. Yes we can talk about them separately but the reality is they are not separate just different ways of looking at the same thing. ---------

This above is due to you don't understand the definition of the body of the art in the ancient Chinese martial art.

In Chinese , body of the art is called body Kung, the application of the art is called Hands methods. Two distinct different things.

For example,
It is just last night , in this thread you reject the coherence state development or one of the body of the art core development. No matter how I try to present the case.

One can still perform the technics without a coherence state and unaware of its existence.


The issue if one doesn't recognize ,experience , and develop it, one don't know what it is.









Here is another of your unsubstantiated claims. If your six core elements is so important to martial skill development in wing chun and you understand that and everyone else is missing it, then why can't you simply show how you can use these things to perform at a much higher performance level than everybody else? -----


1. I have never said everyone else is missing it. Read my previous posts.

2. It is not my six core elements, it is snt six core elements.

3. Many has shows the used of six core elements,

ie :

Didn't
Robert Chu write about body structure the body element decade ago?
Gm hawkin presenting snake body the force change element in his YouTube recently?
Late Gm Wsl presenting his center line momentum handling the momentum element ?

Didn't these three elements within the six core elements contribute to Wck performance around the world?

These three core elements above adding the mind, breathing, and Qi elements make it six core elements .

Didn't one requirements of practice slt is doing it slow , especially the Sam bai fut section or the one tan three fook section? Didn't that develop the mind, breathing, Qi core elements?
Didn't Gm Ipman practice his snt very slowly ?


But do you develop these above in your snt set?
Many wcners have.



Why is it some poor wing chun guys ignorant of these wonderful six core elements can WITH THEIR WING CHUN TRAINING fight at pro level while you with them cannot? ---

I don't know what technical and who you refer to.
Be specific please as I keep asking you to be specific and not using open ended term.
You have been presenting generalization and open ended since the beginning of this thread.

Instead of being specific on is it Tom cruise or Bruce lee or jacky chan you keep saying male actor. Who knows what and who are you talking about? I don't.

[k gledhill]

Hendrik if you post some " action " it might help us to see what your pots go on and on ....about.

[Hendrik]

Ignore my post please. These posts are complex and not every one piece of pie.


For example, the Content in this video, if I am in the physics lab you will see how the force trajectory in my body. However, if I do an application demo or sparing, there is difficult for you to see which type of force I am evoking. Not to mention we usually hide it , the is no reason to show ones weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAkvhj06Fw4&feature=youtube_gdata -


Thus, I suggest biofeedback machine or mind elements, physics lab force sensing monitory for force Change elements . For objective measurement. Only that way one can see clearly what is what. Independent of fighting application demo but go direct into an objective detect and measurable case. It is not how good my Kung fu or what can I do. It is about the existence of different physical elements which needs to aware of.

So, do we develop the above video type of force elements in our siu Lin tau? Do we develop the coherence state.....etc. it is a skill independently needs to be address.



Another thing is, with all respect to HFY style, their slt doesn't develop the type of force due to thier stance and body elements handling as in the above video which is common to all red boat Wck snt. Thus, it is unlikely HFY style is the same art by this Force element DNA .

As I mention here, with all respect to HFY style. It is only technical comparison based on technical phenomenon nothing more.


Hendrik if you post some " action " it might help us to see what your pots go on and on ....about.

[tc101]

No this is your conclusion and I emphasize CONCLUSION not fact based on your interpretation of what seems to be cherry picked information. -------



That is your opinion .

I report what is in black and white from the result of comparison the red boat era Wck slt training instruction from different red boat wck lineages. Not an outcome from one single lineage.


No you report your conclusion. Why do you not provide us with your different written accounts in full, how they were obtained, where they were obtained, and so forth and let us draw our own conclusions whether the comparison shows what you claim it does? If you won't do this then all you are reporting is your conclusion.



Just because you have a writing from the red boat period does not mean what is written is factually true do you not understand that? Yip Man wrote down his story of the history too does that mean it is 100% true?-------


It is not about A writing
but a collection of Writings and instructions from different known red boat era 1850 Wck lineages.


When the information from hunt1 lineage, snake crane lineage, yik kam llineage, and other wck lineages which are isolated for past 160 years match. There is no longer coincident . But statistically support conclusion.


You only list three lineages by name are there others? You say they match but my point is this is your conclusion it is what you see looking at this information. Why do you not provide the information and let us make up our own minds and draw our own conclusions instead of having to take your conclusion as the only right one?

Did not the hunt1 lineage also report that YYT wing chun had no form?



This is another part I do not agree with. Application cannot be separated from what you call the body of the art, they are one. Yes we can talk about them separately but the reality is they are not separate just different ways of looking at the same thing. ---------

This above is due to you don't understand the definition of the body of the art in the ancient Chinese martial art.

In Chinese , body of the art is called body Kung, the application of the art is called Hands methods. Two distinct different things.

For example,
It is just last night , in this thread you reject the coherence state development or one of the body of the art core development. No matter how I try to present the case.

One can still perform the technics without a coherence state and unaware of its existence.

The issue if one doesn't recognize ,experience , and develop it, one don't know what it is.


If one can perform the techniques successfully and skillfully without it then why do we need it? Then is it not by definition unnecessary? That is why your coherence state is not a part of the body of the art since those things are necessary to the successful use and skillful use of the art and its techniques, they go hand in hand.



Here is another of your unsubstantiated claims. If your six core elements is so important to martial skill development in wing chun and you understand that and everyone else is missing it, then why can't you simply show how you can use these things to perform at a much higher performance level than everybody else? -----


1. I have never said everyone else is missing it. Read my previous posts.

2. It is not my six core elements, it is snt six core elements.

3. Many has shows the used of six core elements,

ie :

Didn't
Robert Chu write about body structure the body element decade ago?
Gm hawkin presenting snake body the force change element in his YouTube recently?
Late Gm Wsl presenting his center line momentum handling the momentum element ?
Didn't these three elements within the six core elements contribute to Wck performance around the world?

But do you develop these above in your snt set? Many wcners have.


I do not think we develop any of those things by performing a form or set. They may be referenced or presented in a set or form but we develop them by application or by doing wing chun. For example you could not develop body structure without receiving pressure and having to deal with it, you could not deal with momentum without actually dealing with it and so forth. That is why I say the body of the art and application are really the same thing just different ways of looking at it.

Body structure, dealing with momentum, springy body, controlling the centerline are certainly aspects of wing chun.

[Hendrik]

You only list three lineages by name are there others? You say they match but my point is this is your conclusion it is what you see looking at this information. Why do you not provide the information and let us make up our own minds and draw our own conclusions instead of having to take your conclusion as the only right one?-----



I release a part of mine information to the public.

There are those don't like their name to be drop.
And don't want their note to be released to the public.

Such as snake crane note book of 1850 were still keep in the inner circle. Danny family note were kept in his family.


There is no reason for them to release them to the public if they don't like to.
Remember, no one owe you anything, they can be nice to share as they like for their good will but it is their property and inheritance.





Did not the hunt1 lineage also report that YYT wing chun had no form? -----

It is LYT

That is one data point. But as you say how is this single data point matches to the common denominator and 1850 main stream? Is LYT doing Wck or other art? There are lots of different data to investigate.




If one can perform the techniques successfully and skillfully without it then why do we need it? Then is it not by definition unnecessary? That is why your coherence state is not a part of the body of the art since those things are necessary to the successful use and skillful use of the art and its techniques, they go hand in hand. ------

That is your believe.
The ancient Wck ancestor doesn't record it that way.
The ancient Chinese martial art tradition doesn't go your direction .






I do not think we develop any of those things by performing a form or set. They may be referenced or presented in a set or form but we develop them by application or by doing wing chun. For example you could not develop body structure without receiving pressure and having to deal with it, you could not deal with momentum without actually dealing with it and so forth. That is why I say the body of the art and application are really the same thing just different ways of looking at it. ------


Again, that is your believe based on your speculation.

but it doesn't accord to tcma or 1850 Wck.
If one don't know what and how , one cannot develop it fully.

[Hendrik]

Enough information is released these two days. I go vacation for now.

[JPinAZ]

This is not directed only at your post but yours is a good example of what I am talking about.

I am no authority on wing chun history but here is what I see going on with people discussing wing chun history. First many people have various informations from various sources. Second people assume some parts of it is true based mainly on what they want to be true. In this case that the HFY oral history is factual. Third no one ever considers what if my assumptions are not entirely true only what if other peoples assumtions are not. For example what if HFY lineage really began after the split? Then this account would be sensible. Now I am not assuming the LJ and WWB is true it could of course be wrong. I just think we need to really look at our assumptions.

I do agree with you that it is much ado about nothing. Three forms, one form, no forms these are just different ways of teaching the same art.

I understand this is all hypothetical to prove a point, which is no problem. And I agree with the assumptions argument. But, to continue conversation, maybe we can ignore the oral histories and look at the arts themselves for some answers. This IMO tends to shed more light on things than the hypotheticals and 'what ifs' :)

From my POV, if one looks at HFY SNT as well as it's training platforms, they will see a lot of kiu sau bridge technology being demonstrated/employed (kiu sau being just one example). It stands to reason that this line did not come from WWB/LYT red boat lines as none of this technology is commonly present in the forms, drills or application from ther red boat lines. And this stems from the the fact that there was an clear split in WC lineages in 1850's. And this IMO is hwerea lot of changes started happening between the public and private arts (red boat being 'public' and boxer societies being 'private').
And when you look at ALL the red boat lines after WWB/LYT, while there are some differences, most of it looks the same in both the forms as well as application compared to non-red boat lines (boxer society). And, you will not see the kiu sau technologies when compared to HFY, as well as other big key differences (not saying better/worse either, just differences).

So it doesn't make any sense to think HFY comes from WWB/LYT red boat (or later from LJ for that matter) since they do not share this same information.

[tc101]

I understand this is all hypothetical to prove a point, which is no problem. And I agree with the assumptions argument. But, to continue conversation, maybe we can ignore the oral histories and look at the arts themselves for some answers. This IMO tends to shed more light on things than the hypotheticals and 'what ifs' :)


Ok let's see where this takes us.



From my POV, if one looks at HFY SNT as well as it's training platforms, they will see a lot of kiu sau bridge technology being demonstrated/employed (kiu sau being just one example). It stands to reason that this line did not come from WWB/LYT red boat lines as none of this technology is commonly present in the forms, drills or application from ther red boat lines.


Hold on there please. I do not know what you mean by kiu sau bridge technology so maybe you can explain. I learned that the SLT references dominating the centerline and this of course involves using our bridge hands or kiu sau to do that.



And this stems from the the fact that there was an clear split in WC lineages in 1850's. And this IMO is hwerea lot of changes started happening between the public and private arts (red boat being 'public' and boxer societies being 'private').
And when you look at ALL the red boat lines after WWB/LYT, while there are some differences, most of it looks the same in both the forms as well as application compared to non-red boat lines (boxer society). And, you will not see the kiu sau technologies when compared to HFY, as well as other big key differences (not saying better/worse either, just differences).


Other than HFY what other lineage was involved in the boxer societies according to you in this split? I am not familiar with the lore.

If there was a change in the HFY curriculum to add kiu sao technology whatever that is how do we know that occurred in the 1850s and not 1950 for example?




So it doesn't make any sense to think HFY comes from WWB/LYT red boat (or later from LJ for that matter) since they do not share this same information.

Maybe HFY comes from WWB/YYT and that some smart fellow added the kiu sau tech to their curriculum.

[tc101]

You only list three lineages by name are there others? You say they match but my point is this is your conclusion it is what you see looking at this information. Why do you not provide the information and let us make up our own minds and draw our own conclusions instead of having to take your conclusion as the only right one?-----



I release a part of mine information to the public.

There are those don't like their name to be drop.
And don't want their note to be released to the public.

Such as snake crane note book of 1850 were still keep in the inner circle. Danny family note were kept in his family.


There is no reason for them to release them to the public if they don't like to.
Remember, no one owe you anything, they can be nice to share as they like for their good will but it is their property and inheritance.
.

Here is the problem. You say and I emphasize YOU say that this information exists but we only have your word for it. Even if the info exists we can't examine it ourselves so we again have to take your word for it again that you are not misinterpreting it or drawing poor conclusions. It therefore comes down to we should believe Hendrik because he says we should. You make pronouncements as an authority and as though your conclusions are fact. Yes people can keep their information to themselves if they like but since there is no way to verify or analyze secrets no reasonable person can accept your views. All you are saying is I know some secret info so trust me.

[JPinAZ]

Ok let's see where this takes us.

Hold on there please. I do not know what you mean by kiu sau bridge technology so maybe you can explain. I learned that the SLT references dominating the centerline and this of course involves using our bridge hands or kiu sau to do that.

HFY's Kiu Sau was just a simple example. It is a whole sub-system of WC Chi Sau mainly focusing on centerline bridging and engagement (but not exclusive to this). And, it is more than just a translation of 'bridge hands', but I understand why you might ask this question. Having trained some YM (moy yat) WC prior to HFY, I might have said the same thing in the beginning. I will simply say that this technology and training platform was not there in the YM WC I trained or seen, and is much more than just 'bridge hands' :)

Here's an article on HFY Kiu Sau:
http://www.hungfablog.com/2012/02/02/meaning-kui-sau-hung-fa-yi/

And older write-up I found with a quick search:
https://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2231


Other than HFY what other lineage was involved in the boxer societies according to you in this split? I am not familiar with the lore.

If there was a change in the HFY curriculum to add kiu sao technology whatever that is how do we know that occurred in the 1850s and not 1950 for example?

While I am sure WC was not the only art used by revoltionaries at this time, I can only speak from HFY's perspective and involvment in the Boxer Societies.

Since you asked, here's an article on HFY and it's history, much of which can be verified thru historical records & documents:
http://www.hungfakwoon.com/Article10.htm

Again, HFY Kiu Sau is a very extensive technology and training platform within our Chi Sau System. To assume someone simply added it in not too long ago would have been quite an undertaking. Also, every facet of it is fortified by and fits in with HFY WC's framework of principles & concepts to be added as an after thought.

Sure, there are other kung fu systems that have kiu sau technlogy and I've studied a bit of Chi Sim's kiu sau as well as researched several others. And, while I'm no expert in these other systems, in my experience & understanding, these arts' kiu sau are more animal based and do not fit within the framework of HFY WC principles. So, they would not integrate well, if at all by simply 'adding them to YM WC'.
But really, it was just an example :)


Maybe HFY comes from WWB/YYT and that some smart fellow added the kiu sau tech to their curriculum.

Sure, and then someone might come back and say WWB/YYT came from HFY and the kiu sau, chi kiu, sup ming dim, etc wasn't passed on yeah? Do you see where making unfiar assumptions and guesses gets us? People get insulted, egos get hurt real and it gets messy quick! ;) Not a road I prefer to travel.
I'd rather personally look at & experience the systems themselves and see what is what so I can make up my own mind. Where do you live? Maybe you can visit a HFY school or workshop so you can do the same, if you're interested.

[YouKnowWho]

I know some secret info so trust me.

Here is my simple question.

If you know some secret but nobody believe in you, why should you care? Will you feel great that someday you can take the secret into your grave and die with you?

I know the secret how Yang Chenfu died. Since nobody believe in me, I stop telling. It doesn't bother me a bit. Truth or un-truth, it won't make any difference 1000 years from today.

[Mutant]

HFY's Kiu Sau was just a simple example. It is a whole sub-system of WC Chi Sau mainly focusing on centerline bridging and engagement (but not exclusive to this). And, it is more than just a translation of 'bridge hands', but I understand why you might ask this question. Having trained some YM (moy yat) WC prior to HFY, I might have said the same thing in the beginning. I will simply say that this technology and training platform was not there in the YM WC I trained or seen, and is much more than just 'bridge hands' :)

Here's an article on HFY Kiu Sau:
http://www.hungfablog.com/2012/02/02/meaning-kui-sau-hung-fa-yi/

And older write-up I found with a quick search:
https://hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2231



While I am sure WC was not the only art used by revoltionaries at this time, I can only speak from HFY's perspective and involvment in the Boxer Societies.

Since you asked, here's an article on HFY and it's history, much of which can be verified thru historical records & documents:
http://www.hungfakwoon.com/Article10.htm

Again, HFY Kiu Sau is a very extensive technology and training platform within our Chi Sau System. To assume someone simply added it in not too long ago would have been quite an undertaking. Also, every facet of it is fortified by and fits in with HFY WC's framework of principles & concepts to be added as an after thought.

Sure, there are other kung fu systems that have kiu sau technlogy and I've studied a bit of Chi Sim's kiu sau as well as researched several others. And, while I'm no expert in these other systems, in my experience & understanding, these arts' kiu sau are more animal based and do not fit within the framework of HFY WC principles. So, they would not integrate well, if at all by simply 'adding them to YM WC'.
But really, it was just an example :)



Sure, and then someone might come back and say WWB/YYT came from HFY and the kiu sau, chi kiu, sup ming dim, etc wasn't passed on yeah? Do you see where making unfiar assumptions and guesses gets us? People get insulted, egos get hurt real and it gets messy quick! ;) Not a road I prefer to travel.
I'd rather personally look at & experience the systems themselves and see what is what so I can make up my own mind. Where do you live? Maybe you can visit a HFY school or workshop so you can do the same, if you're interested.
This is all very interesting discussion. BTW LJ ---> Kulo WC branch has specialized kiu sau training too that sounds a lot like your HFY stuff, so the history of the art as passed through the different branches does take some strange turns.

[Hendrik]

Secret?
Cherry pick?
Trust ?
Authority?


Since the begins of this thread, you always read what you think, instead of what I posts isn't it?


Who cares if you believe me or not?
I don't. Facts are facts .

Who cares about secret ?
I am making things public. There is no secret.

Who cares on authority?
I dont give a damm. Law of physics and physiology govern. Thus, I ask you to use biofeedback machine, physics force sensing instruments to test out your skill.





1. On Siu Lin tau 1850 open to public investigation.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=uc3JxHO5q90&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Duc3JxHO5q90

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=a4PD3x_tCOE&feature=relmfu

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=FWCU_Iye85o&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFWCU_Iye85o

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=hXv9EJmw6vs&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DhXv9EJmw6vs



Go a head make my day, investigate and examine them as much or bring in as many experts to look at them as you like



2.. Lots of information were released to the public such as the following. Any one can study them and examine them. More details will be released in July 2013 in new martial hero magazine .

In fact many southern Chinese martial art and history experts ie Gm Lee Kong from White Crane of Fujian, and the Culture department has started to investigating the information. The information are open under the sun for the world to see. But if you are not upto the above experts level to make sense out of the ancient writing , don't complain. Go learn. Chinese ancient art writing in 1850 doesn't follow western mind set which has a different culture based. nor your personal believe.



http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/ccwayne/scwc-explore-thesourceofthesnakeandcraneelementsoftheredboatera wingchunscwcykwaa

http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/ccwayne/scwc-tai-pingheavenlykingdomrevolutionerawcksinglesetsystem evolvesintoathreesetssystemscwcykwaa

http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/ccwayne/scwc-snake-bodyandcranelimbsoftheredboaterawingchunscwcykwaa

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/review-of-sil-nim-tau-past-practice

http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/ccwayne/scwc-the-yejeekimyeungcoreplatformoftheredboatwingchunerasc wcykwaa

http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/ccwayne/scwc-red-boatteachingwithyikkamheartscwcykwaa




3. As I have pointed out, and giving direction which Wck lineages such as snake crane wing chun has their 1890 note book , anyone who is deeply interest know were to look for them. It is not my job to baby feed.




Thus, everything is lay under the sun equally for the east or west, Asia or America or Europe .
It is not a matter of secrete. It is more of how much can you comprehend. Get a pro level Classical Chinese language experts to support, otherwise you cannot making any sense out of the above. Wck 1850 is much much more then what you think per today mind set. Make sure really comprehend what they are before speculate .




Here is the problem. You say and I emphasize YOU say that this information exists but we only have your word for it. Even if the info exists we can't examine it ourselves so we again have to take your word for it again that you are not misinterpreting it or drawing poor conclusions. It therefore comes down to we should believe Hendrik because he says we should. You make pronouncements as an authority and as though your conclusions are fact. Yes people can keep their information to themselves if they like but since there is no way to verify or analyze secrets no reasonable person can accept your views. All you are saying is I know some secret info so trust me.

[guy b.]

All you are saying is I know some secret info so trust me.

This is Hendrik's thing though isn't it? He wants people to be sucked in so that he can guide them towards the true wing chun (via email and youtube clip).

This is why the drip drip drip of no real information, the confusing language, the long youtube clips containing nothing really, the lack of just putting it out there (whatever it is) so that people can try it for themselves.

It is all just entertainment for Hendrik.

[tc101]

Sure, and then someone might come back and say WWB/YYT came from HFY and the kiu sau, chi kiu, sup ming dim, etc wasn't passed on yeah? Do you see where making unfiar assumptions and guesses gets us? People get insulted, egos get hurt real and it gets messy quick! ;) Not a road I prefer to travel.
I'd rather personally look at & experience the systems themselves and see what is what so I can make up my own mind. Where do you live? Maybe you can visit a HFY school or workshop so you can do the same, if you're interested.

Thank you for the links to HFY articles. Very interesting reading.

I do not think just looking at different curriculums can explain history. As we both have pointed out while that can show differences in curriculums it cannot tell us how when where and so forth that these differences arose.

There are I think all kinds of problems in trying to learn wing chun's history including secrecy, non disclosure, yarn spinning, cultural factors, marketing, the cultural revolution, and so forth. I agree with you that people's egos are another factor. All in all I think the inquiry is a waste of time. We can certainly preserve the things passed down to us but that is different than trying to find out the so called truth.

In the end what does the history even matter? You are satisfied with what you do as am I. If HFY came from WWB or if the other way around it makes no difference to me.

[KPM]

And when you look at ALL the red boat lines after WWB/LYT, while there are some differences, most of it looks the same in both the forms as well as application compared to non-red boat lines (boxer society). And, you will not see the kiu sau technologies when compared to HFY, as well as other big key differences (not saying better/worse either, just differences).

.

This is an interesting comment. You are right in that the Wing Chun styles in mainland China that are coming to light are all very similar, so we can postulate they have the same root source. We can look at the lineages of Fung Chun, Yeun Kay Shan and Chan Wah Shun, I even read about a lineage from Fung Sei Cheng recently. You can look at lineages that still exist on the mainland from Yip Man's early teaching. Whether or not they are all "red boat" is irrelevant, they all show similar structures and therefore share a clear common root. But have any HFY lineages been found in China separate from Garret Gee? Have any "boxer society" Wing Chun systems been found that show strong similarities to HFY? I'm not trying to be adversarial here. In years past this was a major problem with HFY's version of "history." But things could have changed. I haven't paid any attention to such matters for several years now. Maybe some new research has emerged? Are there any youtube clips showing a mainland Wing Chun system that is very similar to HFY rather than to the "red boat" lineages?

You see, HFY history suffers from the same problem that Hendrik's version of history suffers. Most of the source documents are in Chinese and have not been translated for us. So we end up having to take HFY's version of history at face value just as we have to take Hendrik's version of history at face value. The one thing that Hendrik has going for his version is that he can show clear relationships between the mainland Chinese versions of Wing Chun from various lineages. He can show the "DNA" so to speak.

Hendrik, what would help your cause immensely is putting it all together into one well-written document in English, with references to your sources. Get a proof-reader to clean it up for you and put it up on a website somewhere. I suggested this to you years ago, and evidently it still hasn't happened, and your ideas are STILL controversial and not widely accepted. I think you have done good work. But until you pull it all together in a coherent form in English, you are not going to gain much ground here regardless of how many threads you repeat yourself.

[tc101]

The problem is more than source materials are written in chinese. Just because a writing exists does not mean the substance of the writing is factual. Yip Man's own written account is a good example.

People are trying to piece together the real history whatever that is with highly imperfect information and then interpreting that using all manner of different assumptions.

Looking at various lineages does not explain things either. What if several lineages that we do not know about were wiped out during the cultural revolution? That's part of what I mean by imperfect information. It is all just too murky based on so many things.

My question is though is why the concern about the real history? Why can't we just accept wing chun for what it is today? What does it matter?

[JPinAZ]

Thank you for the links to HFY articles. Very interesting reading.

You're welcome. hope it helps understand where I'm coming from a little more


I do not think just looking at different curriculums can explain history. As we both have pointed out while that can show differences in curriculums it cannot tell us how when where and so forth that these differences arose.

I hear what you're saying. What I am talking about isn't necessarily curriculum (although that's part of it), it's really about HFY system knowledge & technology. Curriculum can easily be modified to suit the teacher/student - it's just a training format to get the information across, but the system should always be the same. While there are kiu sau training modules within a curriculum, HFY's Kiu Sau Chi Sau technology is part of the system. lol, not sure if that is more confusing or not!


There are I think all kinds of problems in trying to learn wing chun's history including secrecy, non disclosure, yarn spinning, cultural factors, marketing, the cultural revolution, and so forth. I agree with you that people's egos are another factor. All in all I think the inquiry is a waste of time. We can certainly preserve the things passed down to us but that is different than trying to find out the so called truth.

In the end what does the history even matter? You are satisfied with what you do as am I. If HFY came from WWB or if the other way around it makes no difference to me.

Some people value things like history, culture & philosophy along with the martial/technical aspects of the art. Some feel it helps them understand what the creators were after and their given mindset. And then some aren't interested in this at all. To each his own, no big deal to me :)

[Hendrik]

K,

We run into issue with the English translation.

We now releasing data in Chinese as the first phase. Thinking if these were release core data, translation can be done later even if it has to take decades. Since these data has shown the direction and source of the root in term of Chinese history, anti-Qing records, ancient Chinese martial art DNA matching, and common denominators of Wck lineages.


In the mean time, for past two issues of new martial hero and the coming July issues, we are data dumping as much information in a systematic manner as possible. It end up 12 articles published in Chinese . Just to convey the ancient Chinese to the modern one is hectic.

The good news are after these release, the snake body crane limb DNA is accepted by the Asia tcma and history experts because that do match Wck DNA. Also the HK culture dept has started to investigate into the data .

As for the English translation, due to these are voluntary task by a few wcners including sifu Wayne of snake crane and siu Robert Chu who is recently working to translate both the yik kam and snake crane writing of the siu lin tau. we don't have funding to hire people. And thus, trying to do as much as we can.

We open the "Chinese source code" to every one, the twelve articles above to anyone who likes to translate them into different languages. I can provide help to explain the details for the translators, we even can provide help to those who like to use these materials to do a doctor degree in university on ancient Chinese martial art system study or the research of siu Lin tau. An ideal case will be if some is using the data to do doctor degree study and then published the thesis. That way the data can convey into western world in a western way. Since there is big cultural gap between western and Chinese, modern Chinese and ancient Chinese. It is a few years of full time job to do this project.

The following is the full kuen kuit of yik kam one long set siu Lin tau. The development instructions which now make available for the Wck public to investigate and check out what is slt one long set like in 1850 red boat era. For the past 160 years only a countable few has accessed to this instruction. And even fewer who can handle it. But now, we open it to Wck world. Thus, the one set is not a legend, the instruction is still exist. Now every wcners can read it.

http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/ccwayne/scwc-red-boatteachingwithyikkamheartscwcykwaa

Seriously, the content of this above writing is a doctorate degree depth.


Gaining ground is not my intention, our intention is to release these information so wcners knows they exist and know where to find them. It is just breaking ground state.

As one can see , more and more details are now release to support the direction release decades ago. Without changing the story but zoom in with details to make it more clear everyday. We know some days the 1850 evidence will become a standard reference e for all wcners east or west. We never assume we know it all , our job is to open up and make transparent whatever we know which we have. Not a money game, not a guru game.

This is a massive information transfer mission from the east to west. With the only agenda is to provide education. So that ancient wck understanding is common to every wcners.

For those who wants to see a snap short of what content involve can check out the coming issue of wing chun magazine by new martial hero Italy.





This is an interesting comment. You are right in that the Wing Chun styles in mainland China that are coming to light are all very similar, so we can postulate they have the same root source. We can look at the lineages of Fung Chun, Yeun Kay Shan and Chan Wah Shun, I even read about a lineage from Fung Sei Cheng recently. You can look at lineages that still exist on the mainland from Yip Man's early teaching. Whether or not they are all "red boat" is irrelevant, they all show similar structures and therefore share a clear common root. But have any HFY lineages been found in China separate from Garret Gee? Have any "boxer society" Wing Chun systems been found that show strong similarities to HFY? I'm not trying to be adversarial here. In years past this was a major problem with HFY's version of "history." But things could have changed. I haven't paid any attention to such matters for several years now. Maybe some new research has emerged? Are there any youtube clips showing a mainland Wing Chun system that is very similar to HFY rather than to the "red boat" lineages?

You see, HFY history suffers from the same problem that Hendrik's version of history suffers. Most of the source documents are in Chinese and have not been translated for us. So we end up having to take HFY's version of history at face value just as we have to take Hendrik's version of history at face value. The one thing that Hendrik has going for his version is that he can show clear relationships between the mainland Chinese versions of Wing Chun from various lineages. He can show the "DNA" so to speak.

Hendrik, what would help your cause immensely is putting it all together into one well-written document in English, with references to your sources. Get a proof-reader to clean it up for you and put it up on a website somewhere. I suggested this to you years ago, and evidently it still hasn't happened, and your ideas are STILL controversial and not widely accepted. I think you have done good work. But until you pull it all together in a coherent form in English, you are not going to gain much ground here regardless of how many threads you repeat yourself.

[Hendrik]

The table of content of wing chun magazine Italy. Coming issue release 28 June 2013.

http://www.newmartialhero.it/


The last article is title

Siu Nin Tau code & Lim Tau Song --- the legend, the art, and history of Wing Chun kuen

By red boat Wck research group



As the title shows, this article presents to you a snap short on both the big picture and details on what we have find in multiple Wck lineages link to red boat. Provide an answer the legend of Wck with the official Chinese history even, anti Qing culture of china, DNA of tcma.

[JPinAZ]

So what? Yik Kam mixed in snake/crane to his WC and put all the sets together 160 years ago.
Big deal.

Wait, I thought crazy man was going on vacation... :rolleyes:

[tc101]

Hendrik there is no point trying to have a dialogue with you because you are not interested in dialogue you are only interested in presenting your conclusions and that is all they are your conclusions but you want to portray them as fact. Your conclusions are built on information you will not share, on assumptions and other conclusions like your DNA is a conclusion and it all seems to me really circular reasoning. Quite frankly you have a dogma and you can't see past it.

This dogma comes from your belief that your lineages stories are true and you find information that supports it and ignore information that doesn't. Then you present it as fact. That is cherry picking. You ignore HFY for instance since it doesn't fit your dogma by saying it does not have the right DNA or has Yip Man signature both of which are only your conclusions and again not fact.

Anyone who disagrees with you you dismiss by saying that is your opinion as though what you are saying is any better. It is simply your opinion it is not fact.

Your whole history is conclusion built upon conclusion. The problem is that you are not an unbiased researcher but one with an agenda and also that even the information that you have is highly unreliable. You cannot determine the truth from unreliable information.

If people want to preserve their lineage's lore and practices and so forth that is by all means a fine thing to do but we should leave it at that.

[tc101]

You're welcome. hope it helps understand where I'm coming from a little more


Yes it does thank you.



I hear what you're saying. What I am talking about isn't necessarily curriculum (although that's part of it), it's really about HFY system knowledge & technology. Curriculum can easily be modified to suit the teacher/student - it's just a training format to get the information across, but the system should always be the same. While there are kiu sau training modules within a curriculum, HFY's Kiu Sau Chi Sau technology is part of the system. lol, not sure if that is more confusing or not!


I am still not sure but it seems you are saying that this kiu sau is an integrated training module within the HFY curriculum. Whatever it is I am just saying that certainlky you have it but that doesn't tell us when or where it was developed. It could have been before or after the so called split if there ever was a split.

For example we know that some teach wing chun with one form, some with three forms, some with more than three forms, some with no forms. People seem to assume that there must have been only one way in the so called beginning but what if that isn't true. If wing chun was created by several people or evolved over time maybe each decided on a different way to teach it. The art or way of fighting had to come before the curriculum for teaching it since you can't teach something that doesn't exist.



Some people value things like history, culture & philosophy along with the martial/technical aspects of the art. Some feel it helps them understand what the creators were after and their given mindset. And then some aren't interested in this at all. To each his own, no big deal to me :)

Yes I understand the interest I am only saying that we can never really know it always comes down to conjecture. For example did Yip Man learn from Leung Bik or not? We cannot even know this for sure and this happened relatively recently in wing chun history. There are good arguments for each side. Most believe either what they have been told or what they want to believe since that feeds their desires but we can never really know.

The negative aspect of this is that people try to use the history to make claims of superiority.

[Hendrik]

You are free to think as you like.

I present what exist by evidence to the matching details from Chinese history, Chinese martial art DNA , and anti Qing records . With above articles and youtube showing the sources. Which are currently investigate by Chinese martial art experts and scholars in Asia. I take their critics but not yours.

Sorry I don't buy into your speculation based on your mind set which full of generalization and person believe.

Wck research is not a believe or personal speculation, but matching tcma DNA, history of china, across Wck lineages. Which you doesn't seem to be able to comprehend.

Yes, there is no point for further dialog, we walk different paths.




Hendrik there is no point trying to have a dialogue with you because you are not interested in dialogue you are only interested in presenting your conclusions and that is all they are your conclusions but you want to portray them as fact. Your conclusions are built on information you will not share, on assumptions and other conclusions like your DNA is a conclusion and it all seems to me really circular reasoning. Quite frankly you have a dogma and you can't see past it.

This dogma comes from your belief that your lineages stories are true and you find information that supports it and ignore information that doesn't. Then you present it as fact. That is cherry picking. You ignore HFY for instance since it doesn't fit your dogma by saying it does not have the right DNA or has Yip Man signature both of which are only your conclusions and again not fact.

Anyone who disagrees with you you dismiss by saying that is your opinion as though what you are saying is any better. It is simply your opinion it is not fact.

Your whole history is conclusion built upon conclusion. The problem is that you are not an unbiased researcher but one with an agenda and also that even the information that you have is highly unreliable. You cannot determine the truth from unreliable information.

If people want to preserve their lineage's lore and practices and so forth that is by all means a fine thing to do but we should leave it at that.

[Hendrik]

Sure, how come all the red boat wing chun kuen descendent lineages has the same DNA by evidence?

Is this my speculation and cherry pick conclusion as tc101 accused me or a common denominator across all well known Wck lineages today? Let these YouTube from different lineages tell the story.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1235952&postcount=81

http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/ccwayne/scwc-explore-thesourceofthesnakeandcraneelementsoftheredboatera wingchunscwcykwaa




So what? Yik Kam mixed in snake/crane to his WC and put all the sets together 160 years ago.
Big deal.

Wait, I thought crazy man was going on vacation... :rolleyes:

[tc101]

You are free to think as you like.


Thank you. As one of my COs once told me, follow orders but always think for yourself.



I present what exist by evidence to the matching details from Chinese history, Chinese martial art DNA , and anti Qing records . With above articles and youtube showing the sources. Which are currently investigate by Chinese martial art experts and scholars in Asia. I take their critics but not yours.


You present selected evidence, selected by you, to reach your predetermined conclusion. Tell me is your conclusion that your lineage's oral history is completely wrong? Of course not but that would at least add some weight to your view.

What makes these so called experts experts? Who are these experts? How does one become an expert in chinese martial art? These are self appointed experts like yourself. If you agree with them you too are an expert if you disagree your are not an expert. More circular reasoning.

Your martial art DNA is one of your conclusions. STuff with has matching DNA is stuff that fits what you want to believe so you say it can be counted since it has the right DNA. Stuff that disagrees with your predetermined conclusion you ignore because if it does not fit your view then the DNA is wrong. This is circular absurd reasoning but fits the pattern.

I do not care if you take my criticisms or not.



Sorry I don't buy into your speculation based on your mind set which full of generalization and person believe.

Wck research is not a believe or personal speculation, but matching tcma DNA, history of china, across Wck lineages. Which you doesn't seem to be able to comprehend.


Your DNA is one of your conclusions and it is all speculation.



Yes, there is no point for further dialog, we walk different paths.

Yes yes yes we do.

[tc101]

Sure, how come all the red boat wing chun kuen descendent lineages has the same DNA by evidence?

Is this my speculation and cherry pick conclusion as tc101 accused me or a common denominator across all well known Wck lineages today? Let these YouTube from different lineages tell the story.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1235952&postcount=81

http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/ccwayne/scwc-explore-thesourceofthesnakeandcraneelementsoftheredboatera wingchunscwcykwaa

Thank you for providing absolute proof of how your views are pure speculation and cherry picking since those clips are nothing but speculation and cherry picked evidence.

Let me add I think you are absolutely sincere in that you do not see how what you are doing is engaging in speculation and using cherry picked information. That is for me the real scary sad disturbing part.

[JPinAZ]

I am still not sure but it seems you are saying that this kiu sau is an integrated training module within the HFY curriculum. Whatever it is I am just saying that certainlky you have it but that doesn't tell us when or where it was developed. It could have been before or after the so called split if there ever was a split.

While yes, it is an integrated moduel within HFY curriculum, I think you missed my main point completely (no problems there though). The point I was getting at is that it is an integral part of HFY's Chi Sau SYSTEM - regardless how or where you teach it in a curriculum.

If we look at most southern chinese kung fu, many of them have kiu sau technology as part of their systems: praying mantis, hung gar, chi sim, etc. And, kiu sau is an older 'technology' than the commonly seen WC 'tan/bong/fook' chi sau since many of these systems have been around longer than we understand WC to have been around. Plus, they serve two different and distict purposes ('they' being T/B/F chi sau and kiu sau).
So, if we're talking chicken/egg, I'd say kiu sau was probably there first :)

From a HFY POV, kiu sau bridging is typically what takes you from pre engagement to engagement, which is also how most fights typically start. So it makes sense that it is a core component of the system, and points to why kiu sau is typically taught up front in the curriculum - but not always. ;) Again, it depends on who you are teaching and what you want to get across to them or what skills you want to develop based on time constraints, needs, etc. I can teach someone 'wing chun' and not really delve into kiu sau at all if I wanted to. But then, there's going to be some holes in your skillset when fighting at the ranges and facing kiu sau is primarily applicable!


For example we know that some teach wing chun with one form, some with three forms, some with more than three forms, some with no forms. People seem to assume that there must have been only one way in the so called beginning but what if that isn't true. If wing chun was created by several people or evolved over time maybe each decided on a different way to teach it. The art or way of fighting had to come before the curriculum for teaching it since you can't teach something that doesn't exist.

a little unclear of your point here. Chicken/egg again imo. But I agree/feel that you can teach WC with one form, many forms or no forms. From a san sau training pov, you can just have san sik drills and sparring and not show a student any forms at all. They can be trained to fight rather quickly with this method, but they won't be able to self correct or pass on the 'system' afterwards because they weren't taught the 'system' of WC, just how to apply it based on drilling.

Example: HFY has many solo hand forms, more than just SNT/CK/BJ. They are supplimental and have specific focus to accompany training. Bai Jong Baat Bo Jin is one that helps training various footwork and hand methods for facing and enegagment in 360 degrees that stems form CK level strategies and tactics. Now, I can choose to teach this form, or parts of it, any time I feel a student needs additional drilling on something. Or I can chose not to teach it at all. But just because I leave it out of my curriculum doesn't mean this information isn't still part of the system! And, they may be able to better move to face and enegage with their opponent from a 'skill' pov, it doesn't mean they now understand all the strategies and tactice of BJBBJ or CK level knowlege just because they apply some of them in a fight.


Yes I understand the interest I am only saying that we can never really know it always comes down to conjecture. For example did Yip Man learn from Leung Bik or not? We cannot even know this for sure and this happened relatively recently in wing chun history. There are good arguments for each side. Most believe either what they have been told or what they want to believe since that feeds their desires but we can never really know.

The negative aspect of this is that people try to use the history to make claims of superiority.

Stories are stories. good point on the YM learning from LB. Some argue no, but members of LB family say yes. Now, if we look at GM William Cheung's TWC, he says he learned it from YM who in turn learned it from LB. It's obviously clear YM taught his something different and unique from what he taught the rest of his students. That is, if you believe GM WC's story ;)
Either way, it's plain to see that he does have something different in that lineage, and honestly, it has more similarities to HFY compared to anything else I've seen in the WC world, so I doubt GM WC just made it up - he had to learn it somewhere!

But again, stories are stories. People can do whatever they want with them (believe them, ignore them, view then negative/positive, make them up out of thin air, etc) End of the day, it's the system itself that tells the real story imo. And looking at the system of TWC, and all the stories of YHM learning a different WC from LB, GM WC's story makes a lot sense to me.

[JPinAZ]

Sure, how come all the red boat wing chun kuen descendent lineages has the same DNA by evidence?


As usualy, I have no idea what you're talking with that and I could care less about your red boat DNA mumbo jumbo. That is something you made up and try constantly to prove to give your stories some sign of credibility.

Funny, I post something about someone names 'crazy man' and you reply - even when you're on vacation ;)

[Hendrik]

Scientific study using time and different Wck lineages as variance .



1850 , the writing of siu Lin tau from different traceable red boat wing chun kuen lineages present snake and crane elements in the two sections of siu lin tau set as a core.

2013, YouTubes from different well known red boat wing chun kuen lineages present snake and crane elements sections as describe in the 1850 writing within Their siu nim tau set practice.



Across the 160 years from 1850 to 2013, across the different Wck lineages from 1850 to 2013, snake and crane elements sections remain.


It doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to see these reality with simple data analysis.


One can believe what one likes. But , I let the data speak for themselves.







Thank you for providing absolute proof of how your views are pure speculation and cherry picking since those clips are nothing but speculation and cherry picked evidence.

Let me add I think you are absolutely sincere in that you do not see how what you are doing is engaging in speculation and using cherry picked information. That is for me the real scary sad disturbing part.

[Hendrik]

Data shows


1850 red boat era, wing chun kuen core in the snake and crane elements within its siu nim tau set.

2013 present era, the same snake and crane elements preserve well within the siu nim tau sets of different red boat off spring wing chun kuen lineages . Even though after these lineages have been separate for generations in 160 years.



Do you think it is likely for the red boat wing chun kuen to over night switch from HFY DNA in 1850 to snake and crane DNA without a reason, and then keep the same snake and crane DNA practice for next 160 years , with the snake and crane core well preserve?

Does that even fit human evolution or technology evolution pattern ?








As usualy, I have no idea what you're talking with that and I could care less about your red boat DNA mumbo jumbo. That is something you made up and try constantly to prove to give your stories some sign of credibility.

Funny, I post something about someone names 'crazy man' and you reply - even when you're on vacation ;)

[tc101]

Scientific study using time and different Wck lineages as variance .



1850 , the writing of siu Lin tau from different traceable red boat wing chun kuen lineages present snake and crane elements in the two sections of siu lin tau set as a core.

2013, YouTubes from different well known red boat wing chun kuen lineages present snake and crane elements sections as describe in the 1850 writing within Their siu nim tau set practice.



Across the 160 years from 1850 to 2013, across the different Wck lineages from 1850 to 2013, snake and crane elements sections remain.


It doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to see these reality with simple data analysis.


One can believe what one likes. But , I let the data speak for themselves.

Your research and conclusions remind me of one of those conspiracy theories like how the Twin Towers were really blown up by our government and not terrorists on planes or how JFK was assassinated by anyone but Oswald. It all makes so much sense if you only look at certain evidence, if you disregard anything that doesn't agree with you, if you accept certain unproven assumptions as true, if you listen to certain so called experts and not to anyone who disagree with you, and so forth. Yes I am sure everything fits so neatly into your theory that you cannot understand why anyone won't buy into it. The Twin Tower guys feel the same way I'm sure.

[tc101]

As usualy, I have no idea what you're talking with that and I could care less about your red boat DNA mumbo jumbo. That is something you made up and try constantly to prove to give your stories some sign of credibility.


I really think he does not see that. I can say that wing chun DNA is having three forms called SLT, CK, BJ and then a dummy. If you do not have that DNA you are not doing wing chun. What Hendrik does is therefore not wing chun. He can call it wing chun but by definition it is not since it does not have wing chun DNA.

[Hendrik]

Let the data speak for themselves.

All evidence needed has been presented in the previous posts, from different Wck lineages, range from writing to YouTubes.

One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist or philosopher or lawyer to let the data speak for itself. It is about evolution with 160 years of stable data over multiple variance.

Facts are facts , who buys it who don't buy it still don't changes the facts. You don't have to buy it.







Your research and conclusions remind me of one of those conspiracy theories like how the Twin Towers were really blown up by our government and not terrorists on planes or how JFK was assassinated by anyone but Oswald. It all makes so much sense if you only look at certain evidence, if you disregard anything that doesn't agree with you, if you accept certain unproven assumptions as true, if you listen to certain so called experts and not to anyone who disagree with you, and so forth. Yes I am sure everything fits so neatly into your theory that you cannot understand why anyone won't buy into it. The Twin Tower guys feel the same way I'm sure.

[Hendrik]

I let data speak for itself.

I don't buy in the story of
those who claim to have Beethoven music concert but playing Chinese music instead of Beethoven.


I really think he does not see that. I can say that wing chun DNA is having three forms called SLT, CK, BJ and then a dummy. If you do not have that DNA you are not doing wing chun. What Hendrik does is therefore not wing chun. He can call it wing chun but by definition it is not since it does not have wing chun DNA.

[JPinAZ]

Data shows

1850 red boat era, wing chun kuen core in the snake and crane elements within its siu nim tau set.

2013 present era, the same snake and crane elements preserve well within the siu nim tau sets of different red boat off spring wing chun kuen lineages . Even though after these lineages have been separate for generations in 160 years.


This is garbage.

Your sad belief that WC is animal style kung fu is proof enough to me that you have no clue what WC is and only shows you are more of an ameture than I originally thought. Talking further with you is pointless.

Enjoy your vacation crazy man

[Hendrik]

Don't blame me. It got nothing to do with me.

Data shows what it is.
Doesn't matter am I a pro or amature.

Let the data speak for itself.
Sorry the 160 years data doesn't fit your expectation.



This is garbage.

Your sad belief that WC is animal style kung fu is proof enough to me that you have no clue what WC is and only shows you are more of an ameture than I originally thought. Talking further with you is pointless.

Enjoy your vacation crazy man

[Eric_H]

Don't blame me. It got nothing to do with me.

Data shows what it is.
Doesn't matter am I a pro or amature.

Let the data speak for itself.
Sorry the 160 years data doesn't fit your expectation.

The data does speak for itself, as does the system.

WC was most likely not one long set by the time the 1850's came about, the ideas of Chum Kiu, SNT and Biu Gee are separate for a specific purpose. The Wooden Dummy is a native part of WC, not a later add on.

It's very likely that Yik Kam combined everything he learned into one form. This is certainly the angle you are pushing about Yik Kam WC. But I don't know, as from what I have heard talking to the real Yik Kam people in the UK, you're not even qualified to talk to their art, Hendrik.

This explains why you've gone on and on about your karate, chan/zen and songs from the 60-70's and yoga balls so much, the substance isn't there to discuss the WC in depth.

[Jim Roselando]

Interesting discussion.

Some thoughts below:

Hunt wrote:


Lo Kwai is quite clear that Leung Jan learned from 2 teachers. Wong Wa Boh taught a single form and Leung Yee Tai taught several San Sik. Leung Jan worked with His Sifu's to combine the teachings . They developed the 3 forms . Fok Bo Chuen was a younger student who was taught 3 forms from Wong Wa Bo after the forms were put together. The single form contained much the same material that Hendrick refers too. We retain a 4th form that is similar to the single form Wong Wah Bo taught Leung Jan originally. The other form's, pole, knives and dummy took shape under Leung Jan but were not wholly completed in a set form.


Thanks for sharing. I heard this info before about LJ & WWB splitting the sets but I thought I would give some feedback based on Gulao family lore.

First. The art of Wing Chun went from the Yim family to the Leung family by route of Yim marrying Leung Bok Lao in Fujian. From Leung Bok Lao the art is then brought back to Gulao and to the Leung family estate/HQ. BTW: Leung Bok Lao & Yim WC only taught Leung Lon Kwai (their godson) and nobody else.

Leung Long Kwai began teaching Wong Wah Bo in Gulao at the age of 13. There is a common mistake as most believe Wong Wah Bo was taught on the Red Boat. This is not the case. He was a Gulao native and relative of the Leung family. Leung Lon Kwai & Leung Bok Lao are also the same Leung family from Gulao. When Leung Lon Kwai taught Wong Wah Bo in Gulao, at this time they would have been training the single long set.

Leung Yee Tai was Leung Jan's second teacher. He was a Poler from the early generation of Red Boat people. Leung Yee Tai was taught Wing Chun by Wong Wah Bo. They exchanged info. Wing Chun boxing for Pole skills. According to the late Fung Chun it was Wong Wah Bo who introduced Luk Dim Boon Gwun to the Red Boat actors when he arrived on the Junks as he was the Dai Sihing of that group.

Who developed the 3 Fist Sets? First one may need to ask Why would they need to develop them and that would more likely be the burning of the Fine Jade in 1855. This would have been a paradigm shift in the art and a good reason to explain the purpose for the evolution. Gulao history says it was Wong Wah Bo but it very well could have been Leung Lon Kwai and Wong Wah Bo was just the first person to openly teach it. It should be known that all Wing Chun was given out by the Leung family representative during and before that time. Leung Jan was the last of the Leung family heirs. He was said to be skilled in both the old and new WCK. In Futshan he taught the "post" 1855 art. In Gulao he taught a refined fusion of all his knowledge (minus jing, qi, shen "qi stuff") Why? Time was not a luxury for him so it was left out (more likely)... JR


Just some thoughts!


Peace,

[tc101]

I am sorry but this is only More stories and conjecture based on stories. Why do people assume that the stories are true?

[tc101]

I let data speak for itself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKs-5MzGUiw

They can show you data and evidence too.

[Vajramusti]

Interesting discussion.

Some thoughts below:

Hunt wrote:


Lo Kwai is quite clear that Leung Jan learned from 2 teachers. Wong Wa Boh taught a single form and Leung Yee Tai taught several San Sik. Leung Jan worked with His Sifu's to combine the teachings . They developed the 3 forms . Fok Bo Chuen was a younger student who was taught 3 forms from Wong Wa Bo after the forms were put together. The single form contained much the same material that Hendrick refers too. We retain a 4th form that is similar to the single form Wong Wah Bo taught Leung Jan originally. The other form's, pole, knives and dummy took shape under Leung Jan but were not wholly completed in a set form.


Thanks for sharing. I heard this info before about LJ & WWB splitting the sets but I thought I would give some feedback based on Gulao family lore.

First. The art of Wing Chun went from the Yim family to the Leung family by route of Yim marrying Leung Bok Lao in Fujian. From Leung Bok Lao the art is then brought back to Gulao and to the Leung family estate/HQ. BTW: Leung Bok Lao & Yim WC only taught Leung Lon Kwai (their godson) and nobody else.

Leung Long Kwai began teaching Wong Wah Bo in Gulao at the age of 13. There is a common mistake as most believe Wong Wah Bo was taught on the Red Boat. This is not the case. He was a Gulao native and relative of the Leung family. Leung Lon Kwai & Leung Bok Lao are also the same Leung family from Gulao. When Leung Lon Kwai taught Wong Wah Bo in Gulao, at this time they would have been training the single long set.

Leung Yee Tai was Leung Jan's second teacher. He was a Poler from the early generation of Red Boat people. Leung Yee Tai was taught Wing Chun by Wong Wah Bo. They exchanged info. Wing Chun boxing for Pole skills. According to the late Fung Chun it was Wong Wah Bo who introduced Luk Dim Boon Gwun to the Red Boat actors when he arrived on the Junks as he was the Dai Sihing of that group.

Who developed the 3 Fist Sets? First one may need to ask Why would they need to develop them and that would more likely be the burning of the Fine Jade in 1855. This would have been a paradigm shift in the art and a good reason to explain the purpose for the evolution. Gulao history says it was Wong Wah Bo but it very well could have been Leung Lon Kwai and Wong Wah Bo was just the first person to openly teach it. It should be known that all Wing Chun was given out by the Leung family representative during and before that time. Leung Jan was the last of the Leung family heirs. He was said to be skilled in both the old and new WCK. In Futshan he taught the "post" 1855 art. In Gulao he taught a refined fusion of all his knowledge (minus jing, qi, shen "qi stuff") Why? Time was not a luxury for him so it was left out (more likely)... JR


Just some thoughts!


Peace,
----------------------------------------------------------
Not bad thoughts Jim. Leung Jan had little time left in Gulao- imo accounting for the san sik approach.

[Hendrik]

What is real yik kam people?
Please share with the world, I love to know who they are .

As for qualification, sorry, not interest in your his-story.
Show data of evidence , not he says she says or Obama says.

Btw,
What lineage of Wck do you practice?



The data does speak for itself, as does the system.

WC was most likely not one long set by the time the 1850's came about, the ideas of Chum Kiu, SNT and Biu Gee are separate for a specific purpose. The Wooden Dummy is a native part of WC, not a later add on.

It's very likely that Yik Kam combined everything he learned into one form. This is certainly the angle you are pushing about Yik Kam WC. But I don't know, as from what I have heard talking to the real Yik Kam people in the UK, you're not even qualified to talk to their art, Hendrik.

This explains why you've gone on and on about your karate, chan/zen and songs from the 60-70's and yoga balls so much, the substance isn't there to discuss the WC in depth.

[GlennR]

What is real yik kam people? Please share with the world, I love to know who they are too.

Im sure he'll tell you when you put up some real evidence for your theories

[Hendrik]

Jim,

Excellent info!

I am glad you have asked late Gm Fung Chun lots of important question and video tape them!



Interesting discussion.

Some thoughts below:

Hunt wrote:


Lo Kwai is quite clear that Leung Jan learned from 2 teachers. Wong Wa Boh taught a single form and Leung Yee Tai taught several San Sik. Leung Jan worked with His Sifu's to combine the teachings . They developed the 3 forms . Fok Bo Chuen was a younger student who was taught 3 forms from Wong Wa Bo after the forms were put together. The single form contained much the same material that Hendrick refers too. We retain a 4th form that is similar to the single form Wong Wah Bo taught Leung Jan originally. The other form's, pole, knives and dummy took shape under Leung Jan but were not wholly completed in a set form.


Thanks for sharing. I heard this info before about LJ & WWB splitting the sets but I thought I would give some feedback based on Gulao family lore.

First. The art of Wing Chun went from the Yim family to the Leung family by route of Yim marrying Leung Bok Lao in Fujian. From Leung Bok Lao the art is then brought back to Gulao and to the Leung family estate/HQ. BTW: Leung Bok Lao & Yim WC only taught Leung Lon Kwai (their godson) and nobody else.

Leung Long Kwai began teaching Wong Wah Bo in Gulao at the age of 13. There is a common mistake as most believe Wong Wah Bo was taught on the Red Boat. This is not the case. He was a Gulao native and relative of the Leung family. Leung Lon Kwai & Leung Bok Lao are also the same Leung family from Gulao. When Leung Lon Kwai taught Wong Wah Bo in Gulao, at this time they would have been training the single long set.

Leung Yee Tai was Leung Jan's second teacher. He was a Poler from the early generation of Red Boat people. Leung Yee Tai was taught Wing Chun by Wong Wah Bo. They exchanged info. Wing Chun boxing for Pole skills. According to the late Fung Chun it was Wong Wah Bo who introduced Luk Dim Boon Gwun to the Red Boat actors when he arrived on the Junks as he was the Dai Sihing of that group.

Who developed the 3 Fist Sets? First one may need to ask Why would they need to develop them and that would more likely be the burning of the Fine Jade in 1855. This would have been a paradigm shift in the art and a good reason to explain the purpose for the evolution. Gulao history says it was Wong Wah Bo but it very well could have been Leung Lon Kwai and Wong Wah Bo was just the first person to openly teach it. It should be known that all Wing Chun was given out by the Leung family representative during and before that time. Leung Jan was the last of the Leung family heirs. He was said to be skilled in both the old and new WCK. In Futshan he taught the "post" 1855 art. In Gulao he taught a refined fusion of all his knowledge (minus jing, qi, shen "qi stuff") Why? Time was not a luxury for him so it was left out (more likely)... JR


Just some thoughts!


Peace,

[Hendrik]

I don't have a theory, and don't need one.
I just shows real evidence of Wck in the past 160 years. In the previous posts.

It does matter even if he is Obama . Let the data speak for itself.



Im sure he'll tell you when you put up some real evidence for your theories

[Hendrik]

Go take a statistic course for scientific experiments.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKs-5MzGUiw

They can show you data and evidence too.

[GlennR]

I don't have a theory, and don't need one.
I just shows real evidence of Wck in the past 160 years. In the previous posts.



No, no it doesnt

[guy b.]

Don't blame me. It got nothing to do with me.

Data shows what it is.
Doesn't matter am I a pro or amature.

Let the data speak for itself.
Sorry the 160 years data doesn't fit your expectation.

Data can be used to show almost anything. It depends which data you include and which you omit

[Hendrik]

Jim,

These red boat uprising people are closely tight in the 1850 era . These people are all hung mun member within the red boat opera group.

Lee man mau the leader of the red boat opera member , is from Heshan or crane mountain county , kulo is within Heshan.

Lee man mau joints with people in Nga Wu Poon Yee in the 1850s uprising. Nga Wu poon Yee is where the Cho family reside.
Where yik kam the opera actor later teaches cho family.
From the salutation of yik kam Wck and passed code we know they are indeed hung mun member and participate in the 1850 activity which match with the chinese official history.


these are traceable in the official Chinese history records such as in this attach photo.
So, we do know how likely is whether a story did happen in 1850. via these detail we can know who made up his- story and who is real deal.

[Hendrik]

From official Chinese history record on lee man mau with Nga Wu poon Yee.

[Hendrik]

Continuous

[Hendrik]

Why not?

Pieces matches up from different lineages and converge in many areas.





I am sorry but this is only More stories and conjecture based on stories. Why do people assume that the stories are true?

[tc101]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKs-5MzGUiw

All the pieces match up too.

[Hendrik]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKs-5MzGUiw

All the pieces match up too.


Now I really understand you well.

This is really clear up why you are not be able to read what I am posting,
but keep taking what you think as what I post.

[GlennR]

Now I really understand you well.

This is really clear up why you are not be able to read what I am posting,
but keep taking what you think as what I post.

He just doesnt follow your theory-driven research.

You have your own ideas about what happened and fashion the "evidence" to suit.

Pretty simple really

[Jim Roselando]

Hello Hendrik,

Thanks for sharing.

I understand Lee Man Mau is the Red Junk Uprising leader. When I say Wong Wah Bo was the "Dai Sihing" that would be of the Red Boat "Wing Chun" community.

We know Leung Jan was born in 1826. Wong Wah Bo more likely would have been older and was taught in Gulao since the age of 13 (pre Red Boat times). WWB later in life became a Red Boat member. The other Red Junk members would not have been exposed to the art of Wing Chun for many years later so this is why I call him the Dai Sihing..

Also, what type of martial art did Lee Man Mau practice? Were they our Crane cousins and later taught some WCK or were they two separate sect of the troupe woking together helping each other? Hung Mun always hire martial art experts/families to teach them some fighting. With so many people being from Hoksan it would make senses that one of the most wealthy & established martial art families in that region help them by teaching them Gongfu. If Leung Lon Kwai had family/friend on the Red Junk it would make sense that he was upset when it was burned down and help them by tweaking the art based on the needs of the time period...

Hope all is well!

Peace,
Jim


***

These red boat uprising people are closely tight in the 1850 era . These people are all hung mun member within the red boat opera group.

Lee man mau the leader of the red boat opera member , is from Heshan or crane mountain county , kulo is within Heshan.

Lee man mau joints with people in Nga Wu Poon Yee in the 1850s uprising. Nga Wu poon Yee is where the Cho family reside.
Where yik kam the opera actor later teaches cho family.
From the salutation of yik kam Wck and passed code we know they are indeed hung mun member and participate in the 1850 activity which match with the chinese official history.


these are traceable in the official Chinese history records such as in this attach photo.
So, we do know how likely is whether a story did happen in 1850. via these detail we can know who made up his- story and who is real deal.

[tc101]

He just doesnt follow your theory-driven research.

You have your own ideas about what happened and fashion the "evidence" to suit.

Pretty simple really

Yes yes that is exactly what I am saying and it is what all conspiracy theorists do too.

[KPM]

This dogma comes from your belief that your lineages stories are true and you find information that supports it and ignore information that doesn't. Then you present it as fact. That is cherry picking. You ignore HFY for instance since it doesn't fit your dogma by saying it does not have the right DNA or has Yip Man signature both of which are only your conclusions and again not fact.

.

Any kind of historical/anthropological research is to some extent based upon following hunches and theories and looking for data that fits together. Imagine trying to figure out what happened during a particular battle during the American Civil War 150 years ago. You may have written accounts based upon interviews with different survivors published in different newspapers of the time. You may find some elders who can related stories told to them by grandparents with first-hand knowledge of the battle. You may be able to visit the battlefield and look for artifacts and get the "lay of the land." From all of this you might be able to piece together the events of the actual battle. You take the common elements from several newspaper stories and interviews and have to assume those common elements are true since they appear in multiple sources. You look and see how those elements correspond with the known history of the time and area and how they correspond with the land features and other elements of the battle site. You might have to reject accounts from sources that aren't supported by other sources. It is not an exact science. But this isn't "cherry-picking" either. Hendrik has been doing something very similar. He has compiled various lineage "legends" and stories from multiple sources to look for the common elements. He has examined existing lineages of Wing Chun to look for the common elements. He has examined the known history in China that is related looking for where things fit. In any kind of research like this you have to have some kind of theory to guide your investigation, otherwise it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack. When you start finding plenty of things that overlap or "match", then you know you are on the right track. So I give Hendrik credit for this. His expression of his findings in English leaves a lot to be desired, but hopefully that will change in the future. I still think he needs to organize what he knows so far into one document in English with a good ghost-writer/proof-reader so we can all figure out exactly what he is talking about. I'm still a bit confused myself.

Now, just another thought. No one has yet bothered to try and answer my questions about HFY history.

[tc101]

Thank you KPM for a thoughtful reply.

I think things are much more complicated than that. Did Yip Man learn from Leung Bik or not? How can we ever know? This sort of question is repeated thousands of times in wing chun history. We cannot even know something this frequent in time yet we want to know what was going on in the red boat era.

I do not see how oral or written accounts of wing chun lore can be taken seriously. Even those are cherry picked and interpreted.

Hendrik's wing chun DNA is his creation to give his subjective conclusions based on limited cherry picked information weight.

His so called TCMA experts are not like anthropologists but are self appointed experts.

Put that all together and what do you get?

And what is the point of all this so called research? What does it matter in the slightest? For example does it matter if Yip Man learned from Leung Bik or not? What does it matter if HFY came from WWB or WWB came from HFY? It changes nothing.

[guy b.]

And what is the point of all this so called research? What does it matter in the slightest? For example does it matter if Yip Man learned from Leung Bik or not? What does it matter if HFY came from WWB or WWB came from HFY? It changes nothing.

The point is that everyone needs to watch Hendrik's clips and beg him to teach the internal aspects to really make their wing chun work. He will do this in a drip drip fashion over the course of 15 years as he thinks up new stuff and strings you along. You will never reach the end and it will be fiendishly complex

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Jim Roselando;1236451]Hello Hendrik,

Thanks for sharing.

I understand Lee Man Mau is the Red Junk Uprising leader. When I say Wong Wah Bo was the "Dai Sihing" that would be of the Red Boat "Wing Chun" community.

We know Leung Jan was born in 1826. Wong Wah Bo more likely would have been older and was taught in Gulao since the age of 13 (pre Red Boat times). WWB later in life became a Red Boat member. The other Red Junk members would not have been exposed to the art of Wing Chun for many years later so this is why I call him the Dai Sihing..

--------------------------------------------------------------------

A non offensive post commenting on Jim's post deleted-quirky work in the shadows?!!!!

[Hendrik]

Jim,

From the history from the hung mun 1850,

Leung LAN Kwai himself is a Hung Mun Leader who is tightly related to the red boat opera and fine jade hall. He was pseudoname as NG Mui among other four other hung mun leaders in that era. These five people was pseudoname as the five elderly of shaolin in 1855. And as we can confirm today, in deed the burning of fine jade hall is pseudoname as the burning of shaolin in 1855 by the hung mun, since the hung mun record note has surfaced to public.

Lee man mau, yik kam, Leung LAN Kwai . law ancestor of snake crne wck are belongs to the same group of anti Qing people.

We can verify these people via the official Chinese history and hung mun records today.
We know WWB doesn't involve deep as these above guys in the uprising, thus . Leung jan can teach in public, right after the taiping uprising were destroy by Qing.

Same with the founder of Choy lee fut, chan heng, who train the taiping army, has to run away from china , wcners who involved in the uprising have to go hiding. But Leung Jan stay in the area and start teaching.





Hello Hendrik,

Thanks for sharing.

I understand Lee Man Mau is the Red Junk Uprising leader. When I say Wong Wah Bo was the "Dai Sihing" that would be of the Red Boat "Wing Chun" community.

We know Leung Jan was born in 1826. Wong Wah Bo more likely would have been older and was taught in Gulao since the age of 13 (pre Red Boat times). WWB later in life became a Red Boat member. The other Red Junk members would not have been exposed to the art of Wing Chun for many years later so this is why I call him the Dai Sihing..

Also, what type of martial art did Lee Man Mau practice? Were they our Crane cousins and later taught some WCK or were they two separate sect of the troupe woking together helping each other? Hung Mun always hire martial art experts/families to teach them some fighting. With so many people being from Hoksan it would make senses that one of the most wealthy & established martial art families in that region help them by teaching them Gongfu. If Leung Lon Kwai had family/friend on the Red Junk it would make sense that he was upset when it was burned down and help them by tweaking the art based on the needs of the time period...

Hope all is well!

Peace,
Jim


***

These red boat uprising people are closely tight in the 1850 era . These people are all hung mun member within the red boat opera group.

Lee man mau the leader of the red boat opera member , is from Heshan or crane mountain county , kulo is within Heshan.

Lee man mau joints with people in Nga Wu Poon Yee in the 1850s uprising. Nga Wu poon Yee is where the Cho family reside.
Where yik kam the opera actor later teaches cho family.
From the salutation of yik kam Wck and passed code we know they are indeed hung mun member and participate in the 1850 activity which match with the chinese official history.


these are traceable in the official Chinese history records such as in this attach photo.
So, we do know how likely is whether a story did happen in 1850. via these detail we can know who made up his- story and who is real deal.

[Hendrik]

K,

1. I agree with you.


2. one of the most important reason lead me to do the history research.

That is to identify the DNA of Wck and using that to turn on the slt engine. I want to see what it is and how it works.

Yes, we do have that technology to turn on the slt engine of Red boat wck today , due to the history research does aids us ,giving us a clear direction.

We know in details what, where, why ,how the technical elements of slt comes from.

As I have presented in very details in these two YouTube for the Asia pro Chinese martial art and history researchers or experts.


http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=uc3JxHO5q90&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Duc3JxHO5q90

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=a4PD3x_tCOE&feature=relmfu



many think it is the history of my lineages or my theory I am trying to push.
Well, they missed my real point--- to have the key to turn on the slt engine.

As an analogy, BMW history is not the final goal but just one of the tool to guide to find the key to turn on the BMW . the key to turn on the BMW is the final goal. And we have it today.

So, people can come up with different clever way of try to debunk me ....such as the 911 consparacy YouTube...ect. But none contribute to turning on the slt engine to experience and develop it. There are copy cat since decade ago Wcml era using our ideas to create their his -story.... But they all missed my point. Finding the "Cinderella "is the key, history is a support.


So, per today, slt which is related to the red boat, such as the six YouTube from the six well known Wck family, can be turn on via having the software key DNA of Wck. Without has to change hardware. Because the hardware or movement doesn't evolve much and still stay within the ball park for past the 160 years. That is certain. The engine passed code has been cracked. That is the goal, and we have done it.


Thus, people can argue with all kind of theories on the history. But what is the use if they cant even see the original face of siu Lin tau.

Cinderella is the goal, for there is only one and one who fit the shoe of Cinderella.

The bottom line is , at the end of the day, wcners know the way of how slt practice develop the exactly wck skill.




Any kind of historical/anthropological research is to some extent based upon following hunches and theories and looking for data that fits together. Imagine trying to figure out what happened during a particular battle during the American Civil War 150 years ago. You may have written accounts based upon interviews with different survivors published in different newspapers of the time. You may find some elders who can related stories told to them by grandparents with first-hand knowledge of the battle. You may be able to visit the battlefield and look for artifacts and get the "lay of the land." From all of this you might be able to piece together the events of the actual battle. You take the common elements from several newspaper stories and interviews and have to assume those common elements are true since they appear in multiple sources. You look and see how those elements correspond with the known history of the time and area and how they correspond with the land features and other elements of the battle site. You might have to reject accounts from sources that aren't supported by other sources. It is not an exact science. But this isn't "cherry-picking" either. Hendrik has been doing something very similar. He has compiled various lineage "legends" and stories from multiple sources to look for the common elements. He has examined existing lineages of Wing Chun to look for the common elements. He has examined the known history in China that is related looking for where things fit. In any kind of research like this you have to have some kind of theory to guide your investigation, otherwise it would be like looking for a needle in a haystack. When you start finding plenty of things that overlap or "match", then you know you are on the right track. So I give Hendrik credit for this. His expression of his findings in English leaves a lot to be desired, but hopefully that will change in the future. I still think he needs to organize what he knows so far into one document in English with a good ghost-writer/proof-reader so we can all figure out exactly what he is talking about. I'm still a bit confused myself.

Now, just another thought. No one has yet bothered to try and answer my questions about HFY history.

[Hendrik]

I think things are much more complicated than that. Did Yip Man learn from Leung Bik or not? How can we ever know? This sort of question is repeated thousands of times in wing chun history. We cannot even know something this frequent in time yet we want to know what was going on in the red boat era. ---------


There is no relationship whatever between Ipman and Leung bik personal stories, with red boat era wing chun kuen history and facts.

It is this type of missed logic off target analogy mind set that was brought up, on and on and on.








I do not see how oral or written accounts of wing chun lore can be taken seriously. Even those are cherry picked and interpreted.

Hendrik's wing chun DNA is his creation to give his subjective conclusions based on limited cherry picked information weight.

His so called TCMA experts are not like anthropologists but are self appointed experts.

Put that all together and what do you ...------------



160 years of writing record and YouTube with varience of lineages and time presented a massive solid data.




Wcners follow the snake crane DNA one will find Cinderella to fit the shoe. That is what the wcners get. They can turn on their slt engine and develop it.

Called " cinderella found "as anything you like including cherry pick or cheft pick. The bottom line is Cinderella founded.





And what is the point of all this so called research? What does it matter in the slightest? For example does it matter if Yip Man learned from Leung Bik or not? What does it matter if HFY came from WWB or WWB came from HFY? It changes nothing.-------


If you don't clean your cup, you will not be able to drink fresh tea. And don't even know there is a Cinderella . Not to mention finding her. If you use a mis logic you end up confuse yourself.


Not to mention via red boat era history and slt DNA, we know exactly where ipman has evolved his snt set in details.

[Hendrik]

No one need to beg me.

Those who follow the process in my YouTube get result disregard of knowing me or not.

Just because ones mind set is trap within ego competition and put down others to make oneself feel good. Doesn't mean all human being is like that. If one were blind, don't expert everyone living is as blind as one.



The point is that everyone needs to watch Hendrik's clips and beg him to teach the internal aspects to really make their wing chun work. He will do this in a drip drip fashion over the course of 15 years as he thinks up new stuff and strings you along. You will never reach the end and it will be fiendishly complex

[kentchang]

The major problem with Hendrik's pie is that Yik Kam actually mixed his personal style with an Omei 12 palms animal chi gung exercise that only sets Yik Kam's art further apart from the real wing chun kung fu. That also explains why Hendrik was not able to defend himself from a low level test by a chi sim guy years ago according to a report I read. Omei chi gung would not help him develop his fighting skills. Besides Yik Kam, no other wc lineages went out of their way to learn Omei chi gung. When Hendrick keeps saying Yik Kam this, Yik Kam that ...what does this really mean to the wc community? Yik Kam SLT is just his personal style and has absolutely no wc DNA related to the original red boat wc kung fu like WWB and LYT. Has anyone ever seen any of these Omei DNA in Yip Man or other WC lineages? The answer is "NO".




I really think he does not see that. I can say that wing chun DNA is having three forms called SLT, CK, BJ and then a dummy. If you do not have that DNA you are not doing wing chun. What Hendrik does is therefore not wing chun. He can call it wing chun but by definition it is not since it does not have wing chun DNA.

[tc101]

No one need to beg me.

Those who follow the process in my YouTube get result disregard of knowing me or not.

Just because ones mind set is trap within ego competition and put down others to make oneself feel good. Doesn't mean all human being is like that. If one were blind, don't expert everyone living is as blind as one.

The Twin Towers people say the exact same thing that we who do not accept their conspiracy theory are blind and not concerned with the truth. Go read how they defend their views and you will see quite the parallel.

Please by all means put your stuff up on you tube just like the Twin Towers people do. If someone wants to follow that stuff they are welcome to as well. It is a free world and people can believe what they want. By the same token you and the Twin Towers people should know that there are many who do not accept your views and why.

You can dismiss us as having ego problems or willful blindness or whatever but that is not the case. I spent quite some time reading your posts past and present. I see all kinds of problems with your so called evidence, your assumptions, your conclusions, your arguments and so forth. I do not see how any independently thinking person could possibly accept what you say based on the substance of your views or how you present it.

[JPinAZ]

There is no relationship whatever between Ipman and Leung bik personal stories, with red boat era wing chun kuen history and facts.

Totally clueless - You have as little proof of this as anyone else.
Funny enough, Leung Bik's own realatives have said just opposite. But I'm sure they don't know anything either :rolleyes:


It is this type of missed logic off target analogy mind set that was brought up, on and on and on.

That's how most view any 'information' you share on this forum..

[JPinAZ]

The major problem with Hendrik's pie is that Yik Kam actually mixed his personal style with an Omei 12 palms animal chi gung exercise that only sets Yik Kam's art further apart from the real wing chun kung fu. That also explains why Hendrik was not able to defend himself from a low level test by a chi sim guy years ago according to a report I read. Omei chi gung would not help him develop his fighting skills. Besides Yik Kam, no other wc lineages went out of their way to learn Omei chi gung. When Hendrick keeps saying Yik Kam this, Yik Kam that ...what does this really mean to the wc community? Yik Kam SLT is just his personal style and has absolutely no wc DNA related to the original red boat wc kung fu like WWB and LYT. Has anyone ever seen any of these Omei DNA in Yip Man or other WC lineages? The answer is "NO".

Great point. WC has nothing to do with animal kung fu.
And I heard the same report from several people - all of this talk from crazy man yet he fell right on his butt crying 'that's not wing chun!' with a simple move from chi sim guy. lol, now that's funny!

[Wayfaring]

Great point. WC has nothing to do with animal kung fu.
And I heard the same report from several people - all of this talk from crazy man yet he fell right on his butt crying 'that's not wing chun!' with a simple move from chi sim guy. lol, now that's funny!

To be fair Andreas Hoffman can probably dump the vast majority of this forum on their cans. BJJ black belt + his chi sim is pretty slick.

[tc101]

So says the village idiot.

You are better than that. Don't stoop to that level.

[Hendrik]

1. Since decade ago a group of people, due to not be able to defend their own history presentation , continuous to spread rumors on me trying to discredit me. Thinking that will discredit the history and DNA facts which I have presented. I fact after a decade, this group of people cannot present any Chinese official history , ancient martial art evidence to support their claim.

2. I have never engaged in kong sau or skill test in the west. As a public record. There are many who have visited me who knows my art and skill. Only those be able to tell you what is the facts of my art. I am not a superman and not perfect and not perfect fighter or best fughter in any means never claim that , however, only those who have meet me in serious Wck meeting and touch hand know my art and me.

3。 my report of finding in wck has been investigated by Asia Chinese martial art and history experts such as Gm Lee kong and many others in Asia , and Hong Kong cultural dept. those are the indication of merit or critics.




To the group of people who spread rumous and keep trying to discredit me like any politician to cover up facts. sorry, my research has reached the hand of the professional, the Vedic is theirs you can't influence it.





The major problem with Hendrik's pie is that Yik Kam actually mixed his personal style with an Omei 12 palms animal chi gung exercise that only sets Yik Kam's art further apart from the real wing chun kung fu. That also explains why Hendrik was not able to defend himself from a low level test by a chi sim guy years ago according to a report I read. Omei chi gung would not help him develop his fighting skills. Besides Yik Kam, no other wc lineages went out of their way to learn Omei chi gung. When Hendrick keeps saying Yik Kam this, Yik Kam that ...what does this really mean to the wc community? Yik Kam SLT is just his personal style and has absolutely no wc DNA related to the original red boat wc kung fu like WWB and LYT. Has anyone ever seen any of these Omei DNA in Yip Man or other WC lineages? The answer is "NO".

[JPinAZ]

You are better than that. Don't stoop to that level.

that was putting it nicely :p Ok, I fixed it to be more PC


To be fair Andreas Hoffman can probably dump the vast majority of this forum on their cans. BJJ black belt + his chi sim is pretty slick.

Fair enough! But, I'm willing to bet we could take that one further and say the majority of the people here could do the same to him.

Ahh, I guess I'm just tired of the non-stop BS from this guy. All talk and not a single bit of proof (either in real documentation OR in proven skills).
LOL, but then it IS the WC forum, I guess that's about par more often than not ;)

[Hendrik]

Once one get the DNA of Wck in the red boat era, and get the DNA of different the red boat lineages,

It is a matter of DNA matching analysis.

You want to know about the facts of whether Ipman Leung Bik story ?
Just analyze the ipman Wck DNA to see what dna it matches.

As simple and direct as that.






The Twin Towers people say the exact same thing that we who do not accept their conspiracy theory are blind and not concerned with the truth. Go read how they defend their views and you will see quite the parallel.

Please by all means put your stuff up on you tube just like the Twin Towers people do. If someone wants to follow that stuff they are welcome to as well. It is a free world and people can believe what they want. By the same token you and the Twin Towers people should know that there are many who do not accept your views and why.

You can dismiss us as having ego problems or willful blindness or whatever but that is not the case. I spent quite some time reading your posts past and present. I see all kinds of problems with your so called evidence, your assumptions, your conclusions, your arguments and so forth. I do not see how any independently thinking person could possibly accept what you say based on the substance of your views or how you present it.

[JPinAZ]

Once one get the DNA of Wck in the red boat era, and get the DNA of different the red boat lineages,

It is a matter of DNA matching analysis.

You want to know about the facts of whether Ipman Leung Bik story ?
Just analyze the ipman Wck DNA to see what dna it matches.

As simple and direct as that.

lol, great theory.

First, one would have to even know wtf you are talking about with this DNA nonsense.
Second, if if you could figure the first out, you would have to know which 'version' of ipman wck to look at. There are many now-a-days, and everyone is doing something different. Compare LT VT to WSL line and you will see things are night and day in differences from the root up.
Third, with all of these differences now-a-days, and without a time machine, you will NEVER know what wck looked like in the times of say Wong Wah Bo to compare any of them too.

so, your talk of facts by looking at wck today is a joke and rather pointless. Maybe that's why you started looking at animal styles for your answers :rolleyes:

[Hendrik]

Just because you don't know , does not apply to others.


For those of you, who is interested :


First,

One uses

Traditional Chinese martial art DNA , Official Chinese history, and hung mun anti Qing record to examine the wing chun kuen art, practice , passed code, history ...... Etc. from different red boat era Wck lineages. We have 160 years of data across time and many generation and cover different areas and residents location to do signal data processing to find the DNA. That is alot of stable data from different angle. Instead a single occurrence. Human and art evolution doesn't come out from thin air but has traces and tracks.

with that one will find the core Wck DNA and its mother art DNA.
With this DNA one will be able to activate the engine of snt effectively. Since one have found the " Cinderella ."


Then,
Continuous on,

One using the above information to further investigate the unique DNA of each different red boat era wing Chu lineage.

With these one will find unique DNA of different Wck lineages.


At this point one has the Wck core DNA and the unique DNA of different lineage. These has build up a data bank of DNA.


Then continuous,

One can further investigate the off spring of the red boat era Wck lineages, to gather more DNA.



At this point, things are clear.





For example,

if a lineages suddenly come to the picture and claim it is the oldest wing chun kuen of 1700 , one check if it match Wck core DNA. If It don't. We know they can't be what they claim.

Check again with the off spring Wck DNA. There one found it has an offspring DNA and mix with some other stuffs. There we know, it is an evolution or creation after this particular off spring.


Example 2,
If a person claim he learn the secret of Wck from WWB. But his Wck DNA match with YKS line. Then we also know what is the fact.


No rocket scientists or great lawyers needed, as in DNA technology. One don't have to have those clever argument to find the parent. Just do a DNA test.



For past three decades, I do the above investigating and build up DNA data based. It is not history or his-story as my major focus . But finding core dna and building DNA data based is my interest. DNA technology let us see clearly and honest.




Years ago, in this forum , I told sifu Sergio Black flag wing chun is a modern creation months before Sergio find out it indeed is. That is using the same DNA match scan as above. You know the DNA you know the parent . It is a patern recognition technology, not history speculation .

So why is it important to know the six core elements of snt? Because every element has a core DNA . In this black flag case, the body structure, the force change, the momentum handling core are all off.




lol, great theory.

First, one would have to even know wtf you are talking about with this DNA nonsense.
Second, if if you could figure the first out, you would have to know which 'version' of ipman wck to look at. There are many now-a-days, and everyone is doing something different. Compare LT VT to WSL line and you will see things are night and day in differences from the root up.
Third, with all of these differences now-a-days, and without a time machine, you will NEVER know what wck looked like in the times of say Wong Wah Bo to compare any of them too.

so, your talk of facts by looking at wck today is a joke and rather pointless. Maybe that's why you started looking at animal styles for your answers :rolleyes:

[JPinAZ]

For past three decades, I do the above investigating and build up DNA data based. It is not history or his-story as my major focus . But finding core dna and building DNA data based is my interest. DNA technology let us see clearly and honest.


That's great - So how many different lines of IpManWC did you personally study over the last 30 years to learn all these different IpMan DNA and put them together?

[KPM]

I think things are much more complicated than that.

---Of course. No analogy is ever perfect, and historical research can be very complicated.

Did Yip Man learn from Leung Bik or not? How can we ever know? This sort of question is repeated thousands of times in wing chun history. We cannot even know something this frequent in time yet we want to know what was going on in the red boat era.

---If we found a letter written by Yip Man to Leung Bik or vice versa, we might know. If Leung Bik's son or one of his students was still alive and someone found him and he said he had seen Yip Man training with Leung Bik personally, we would know. If Leung Bik left a lineage of students that still existed and we could see things that they did that are found in Yip Man's Wing Chun but not in Chan Wah Shun lineage students, we might know. It all depends upon what evidence is still around. Sometimes there is none! Sometimes there may be something to find. That's the nature of historical research.

I do not see how oral or written accounts of wing chun lore can be taken seriously. Even those are cherry picked and interpreted.

---This is true. But most legends have a foundation in fact. When various points in legends from various sources match up, we have a better idea of what the facts might have been.

Hendrik's wing chun DNA is his creation to give his subjective conclusions based on limited cherry picked information weight.

---No, Hendrik can be rather confusing in how he presents his ideas, but I don't think he is making anything up. This whole "DNA" analogy is rather over-done and I think now just leads to more confusion. What Hendrik has done is look at the mechanics and techniques found in various Wing Chun lineages and determined what is common to all of them. This common element suggests a common source and is therefore the "DNA" that Hendrik is looking for. He posts all those things on youtube expecting us to pick up on these same common elements shared by different lineages of Wing Chun. And what he is talking about is a deeper layer then just the fact that all have a SLT, CK, and BG form. Now what accurate "DNA" should consist of may be debatable, and something that Hendrik needs to line out for us better.



What does it matter in the slightest? For example does it matter if Yip Man learned from Leung Bik or not? What does it matter if HFY came from WWB or WWB came from HFY? It changes nothing.

---This is true. It may not matter one whit to a lot of people. It only matters to the people that are interested in such things, and to people who try to use a legend as history to justify there position or what they are doing. "Black Flag" Wing Chun was a total farce, yet presented its "history" as hard fact. HFY had this problem when it went public. Lots of legends were presented as history to give HFY credibility in the market place. Yet no one had ever seen HFY before, and Garrett Gee was the only one known to teach it. There was nothing to back up what HFY said about its past history. That may have changed over time. I'm still waiting for someone here to answer my prior questions.

[Hendrik]

My focus is in red boat era wing chun kuen.
You need to ask sifu Robert Chu to help you, if you like to know Ipman lineages.



That's great - So how many different lines of IpManWC did you personally study over the last 30 years to learn all these different IpMan DNA and put them together?

[KPM]

That's great - So how many different lines of IpManWC did you personally study over the last 30 years to learn all these different IpMan DNA and put them together?

Hendrik hasn't claimed in-depth knowledge of Yip Man lineages, he has been talking about mainland China lineages of Wing Chun. So I'll assume that's what you meant (I may be wrong) and respond from that perspective. In another thread Palmstriker said he could watch someone doing their SLT and know whether it was "real" Yip Man Wing Chun or not. What would be so hard about Hendrik watching other lineages doing their SLT and noting common techniques and body mechanics? How hard would it be to compare notes with a Sifu from another lineage for an afternoon and see how they did things the same or differently? Someone with a good grasp of Wing Chun mechanics wouldn't have to study in-depth with each and every lineage. I'm not trying to defend Hendrik here, just trying to point out the obvious.

[Hendrik]

K,

DNA might be a word some doesn't like but it is real in ancient Chinese martial art.

It is called 拳種 or kuen choong in Cantonese. Or "seed" type of the art. Today, when I brought the term DNA as kuen choong to communicate with say older generation or my sifu generation traditional Chinese martial art and history experts say in Hong Kong. They know exactly what I am talking about. In the west, this term seldom mention.

As in my late sifu era, when he teaches me the sets, since cho family carry different seeds type of tcma, he often caution me on the set I practice has to follow the kuen choong. Otherwise is junk. Many time, when I practice snt with clf type of move, I got hack. My si heng Doing snt with hung gar type , sifu is extremely not happy about.


So, within 拳種 or kuen choong. There is 功種 or Kung choong in Cantonese. Or ＂seed type of the mechanic development. Ie seed of power generation or force handling.
This is one elements within the six core elements of snt .

What Kung choong contribute is that every style has its specific way of develop the body mechanics or power generation or engine.

For example,
the white crane from fujian has its 摔手頓手彈抖or shake bounce process.
The Chen taiji has its 丹田內轉纒��or Dan dien inner rotate reel silk process
These are different process fit their white crane San chin set and Chen taiji set.
While siu nim tau has its 蛇行蛹動六弓 or snake slide worm move six bow process.
Which fit into siu nim tau to support the kuen choong.

So, using the white crane process will not fit and support the siu nim tau set. Same with using Chen taiji process will not fit and support the siu nim tau.


So, these "seed" or DNA as I now using a modern term to called in English. They exist in tcma in the past, to master an art one needs to know these clearly, accurately. Otherwise one cannot develop fully.


Thus, as I says before, it is like to do a doctor degree if one really study these stuffs. The west do need some one to do a doctor thesis to convey these knowledge in the western mind set way from the Chinese culture. This part of Wck needs to be open up and preserve for those who love art. I am not talking fighting and best fighter....etc. But art lover, as those who love Beethoven music and know it inside out.

So, if we want to talk 1850 we better know the kuen choong and Kung choong. Otherwise, we are outside the entry.

So, if we want to develop the sticking or short power of Wck, guess what? Has to rely on these seeds or DNA. That is the 1850 way. Otherwise we cannot develop it with snt.

Seeds Are a field most never touch and fading away in present tcma. I am not claiming to be an expert. But I don't want to lie or keep it for myself on something which do exist.


Thus, history and DNA , for me are just a two faces of a Coin. Knowing DNA will be able to trace root history. Knowing history can help track DNA. But DNA is much more valuable for martial art implementation. History is good for literature .

[JPinAZ]

My focus is in red boat era wing chun kuen.
You need to ask sifu Robert Chu to help you, if you like to know Ipman lineages.

Robert Chu isn't here making all sorts of rediculous claims, like having investigated all the Ip Man lineages to know what is 'real red boat DNA' and what isn't.

Besides that, I didn't say I wanted to know anything other than can you prove that you've really done the research you claim, or do you just gather all this DNA experience in the past 30 years from watching videos? Because if that's hte case, it's no wonder you come off as having no clue what you're tlaking about..

[Hendrik]

I post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik
My focus is in red boat era wing chun kuen.
You need to ask sifu Robert Chu to help you, if you like to know Ipman lineages.

Robert is the author of complete wing chun and Ipman Wck decendent. He is the perfect person if you like to ask about Ipman Wck.


As usual, you love to twisting things around , as evidence shows, Thus, there is no need for me to waste my time with you.




Robert Chu isn't here making all sorts of rediculous claims, like having investigated all the Ip Man lineages to know what is 'real red boat DNA' and what isn't.

Besides that, I didn't say I wanted to know anything other than can you prove that you've really done the research you claim, or do you just gather all this DNA experience in the past 30 years from watching videos? Because if that's hte case, it's no wonder you come off as having no clue what you're tlaking about..

[JPinAZ]

Hendrik hasn't claimed in-depth knowledge of Yip Man lineages, he has been talking about mainland China lineages of Wing Chun.

I stand corrected - henrik is saying that he has unlocked the 'wck DNA' for all wc it seems. He even claims now that he can look at any wc lineage and tell who it comes from and who it doesn't come from. He went even further to think he could do it with my own art, even though it's not red boat opera WC!:eek:
How can someone do all that and have the holy grail to all things 'red boat WCK' (which Ip Man also is from BTW), and apparently even those that aren't, without having actually studied any of the arts he's judging except for one animal style wc?


So I'll assume that's what you meant (I may be wrong) and respond from that perspective. In another thread Palmstriker said he could watch someone doing their SLT and know whether it was "real" Yip Man Wing Chun or not. What would be so hard about Hendrik watching other lineages doing their SLT and noting common techniques and body mechanics? How hard would it be to compare notes with a Sifu from another lineage for an afternoon and see how they did things the same or differently?

SLT is just a form. You cannot possible understand the inner workings of a system by watching youtube clips of just SNT forms and no hands-on experience or knowledge. The only thing you could compare the other lineages too are the ones you have experience in yourself. And, if you only really have experience in one line like henrik, then that is very limited POV to make all these crazy assumption on.

Maybe you should go back and re-read what Hendrik wrote in the post I pulled my
last quote from. He's now claiming that after 30 years of this DNA voodoo magicry he has found the 'cinderella' as he calls it and "At this point one has the Wck core DNA and the unique DNA of different lineage. These has build up a data bank of DNA"

So you really buy into this nonsense? That he did all this by reading some old scrolls and watching youtube? Is that really how you believe people learn WCK??No offense, but you should be locked up in the same padded room he's sitting in if you do...


Someone with a good grasp of Wing Chun mechanics wouldn't have to study in-depth with each and every lineage. I'm not trying to defend Hendrik here, just trying to point out the obvious.

Sure, someone with good WCK knowledge can do this. Heck, I can take one look at hendricks clips and point out tons of stuff he's doing wrong. Competely wrong. He can't stand straight, has no root, poor posture, no understanding of WC structural positions, etc. But it's all based on my own undertaning of WC thru HFY WC which has very specific forumlas and concepts that let me see that (as well as 1 year moy yat WC). Maybe Hendrick's animal sytle wc isn't worried about such things of structure, root, posture, etc.
So is it really fair of me to judge him based on my own experience and (high) standards? Proably not since I don't have any actual experience in his art.
Well, it works the other way around too ;)
Yet hendrik seems to have unlocked the Holy red boat DNA mombo jumbo cindarella key that allows him to do just that. Good lord..... :rolleyes:

[JPinAZ]

I post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik
My focus is in red boat era wing chun kuen.
You need to ask sifu Robert Chu to help you, if you like to know Ipman lineages.

Robert is the author of complete wing chun and Ipman Wck decendent. He is the perfect person if you like to ask about Ipman Wck.

As usual, you love to twisting things around , as evidence shows, Thus, there is no need for me to waste my time with you.

I twisting things? You're the one hiding behind robert and his books when asked very direct questions about your experience in all these art's you seemed to have unlocked 'DNA' on. Rovert hasn't posted on these forums for quite a while - probably for good reasons like this. Neither he, nor his books, has nothing to do with your claims here.

So again, to unlock all this DNA, how many red boat wck arts/lineages have you studied in, if even for a few months, other than your own?

[Hendrik]

Since you ask for it, I refer you to Robert to have a first hand understanding on Ipman lineage. He is the man.

http://wingchungeeks.com/robert-chu-interview/

"A few years after that, I went to Hong Kong to study with Koo Sang. Of course, while I was there I met with Chu Shong Ting, Lo Man Kam in Taiwan, and Wong Shun Leung. Finally around 1987, I contacted Hawkins Cheung and asked if he would do a seminar in New York. He agreed and I really liked what Hawkins taught me." ---- sifu Robert Chu





As for the DNA why are you so stress heard about its existence?







I twisting things? You're the one hiding behind robert and his books when asked very direct questions about your experience in all these art's you seemed to have unlocked 'DNA' on. Rovert hasn't posted on these forums for quite a while - probably for good reasons like this. Neither he, nor his books, has nothing to do with your claims here.

So again, to unlock all this DNA, how many red boat wck arts/lineages have you studied in, if even for a few months, other than your own?

[JPinAZ]

As for the DNA why are you so stress heard about its existence?

Ok, you don't have any experience in these various arts you seem to have unlocked DNA for - your inability to answer by hiding behind robert is proof enough for me. Don't worry, I won't ask again, I have my answer.

And no stress involved - I find this all amussing to no end actually. It's like watching a clown tripping over his own feet at a circus!

[Hendrik]

As a MD. I refer specialist to patient. In this case you ask for Ipman lineage, I refer you to an expert. Read my post above.

As for core DNA of red boat era wing chun kuen they exist and solid as rock, and currently has approval from well known Chinese martial art and history experts. Wait for the news from Asia soon.

As for how you love to think, that is your freedom.




Ok, you don't have any experience in these various arts you seem to have unlocked DNA for - your inability to answer by hiding behind robert is proof enough for me. Don't worry, I won't ask again, I have my answer.

And no stress involved - I find this all amussing to no end actually. It's like watching a clown tripping over his own feet at a circus!

[Paddington]

[...]
Hendrik's wing chun DNA is his creation to give his subjective conclusions based on limited cherry picked information weight.

---No, Hendrik can be rather confusing in how he presents his ideas, but I don't think he is making anything up. This whole "DNA" analogy is rather over-done and I think now just leads to more confusion. What Hendrik has done is look at the mechanics and techniques found in various Wing Chun lineages and determined what is common to all of them. This common element suggests a common source and is therefore the "DNA" that Hendrik is looking for. He posts all those things on youtube expecting us to pick up on these same common elements shared by different lineages of Wing Chun. And what he is talking about is a deeper layer then just the fact that all have a SLT, CK, and BG form. Now what accurate "DNA" should consist of may be debatable, and something that Hendrik needs to line out for us better.
[...]


I tend to agree with what KPM says here, particularly the bits I highlight in italic.

Hendrik, I think one issue why people, myself included, struggle to understand and follow you at points is because there is lack of brevity on your behalf in your video clips. I think this is partly down to there being a lot of repetition and repeating of points across and within single video clips.

Hendrik, have jox and yourself furthered that document outlying the 'DNA' any further? I actually thought that document the best direction to go in to refine your arguments and points, particularly if you guys went a little further into the biomechanics, from a 'western' 'sports science' point of view i.e. like this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Athletic-Ability-Anatomy-Motion-Wirhed/dp/0723433860) , that characterize this 'DNA'.

[tc101]

I think things are much more complicated than that.

---Of course. No analogy is ever perfect, and historical research can be very complicated.


This is not historical research that is how Hendrik likes to refer to it but that does not make it so. It is historical speculation with a predetermined outcome.



---If we found a letter written by Yip Man to Leung Bik or vice versa, we might know. If Leung Bik's son or one of his students was still alive and someone found him and he said he had seen Yip Man training with Leung Bik personally, we would know. If Leung Bik left a lineage of students that still existed and we could see things that they did that are found in Yip Man's Wing Chun but not in Chan Wah Shun lineage students, we might know. It all depends upon what evidence is still around. Sometimes there is none! Sometimes there may be something to find. That's the nature of historical research.


I used this example to show how even with simple lineage things are difficult and often impossible to know. This gets many many times more difficult and complex when you start trying to figure out what who when influenced a persons wing chun development.



I do not see how oral or written accounts of wing chun lore can be taken seriously. Even those are cherry picked and interpreted.

---This is true. But most legends have a foundation in fact. When various points in legends from various sources match up, we have a better idea of what the facts might have been.


That is a nice cliche but is not really true. Legend may have some basis in reality but also can be complete fabrication.



Hendrik's wing chun DNA is his creation to give his subjective conclusions based on limited cherry picked information weight.

---No, Hendrik can be rather confusing in how he presents his ideas, but I don't think he is making anything up. This whole "DNA" analogy is rather over-done and I think now just leads to more confusion. What Hendrik has done is look at the mechanics and techniques found in various Wing Chun lineages and determined what is common to all of them. This common element suggests a common source and is therefore the "DNA" that Hendrik is looking for. He posts all those things on youtube expecting us to pick up on these same common elements shared by different lineages of Wing Chun. And what he is talking about is a deeper layer then just the fact that all have a SLT, CK, and BG form. Now what accurate "DNA" should consist of may be debatable, and something that Hendrik needs to line out for us better.


How can you say he is not making things up? His DNA analogy is his creation.

Of course wing chun has common elements that is why we are all doing wing chun and not different arts. Is that not blatantly obvious?

Common elements does not suggest a common source although that is one possibility.

One of the many many assumptions behind Hendrik's DNA conclusion is that these common elements are narrow in expression when in reality they are quite variable and can have wide expression even in the same lineage or even between classmates. Mechanics for example can be widely variable within the same group.

The problem is that the common elements do not extend to a deeper level they are all on the top most level, the most obvious level. We all have the most simple basic things, the tools, rudimentary concepts and so forth. This is why almost anyone with a little experience can identify wing chun when they see it. Beyond that as we get deeper things get much more individualized, have wide variation and are no longer in common.

[GlennR]

This is not historical research that is how Hendrik likes to refer to it but that does not make it so. It is historical speculation with a predetermined outcome.



I used this example to show how even with simple lineage things are difficult and often impossible to know. This gets many many times more difficult and complex when you start trying to figure out what who when influenced a persons wing chun development.



That is a nice cliche but is not really true. Legend may have some basis in reality but also can be complete fabrication.



How can you say he is not making things up? His DNA analogy is his creation.

Of course wing chun has common elements that is why we are all doing wing chun and not different arts. Is that not blatantly obvious?

Common elements does not suggest a common source although that is one possibility.

One of the many many assumptions behind Hendrik's DNA conclusion is that these common elements are narrow in expression when in reality they are quite variable and can have wide expression even in the same lineage or even between classmates. Mechanics for example can be widely variable within the same group.

The problem is that the common elements do not extend to a deeper level they are all on the top most level, the most obvious level. We all have the most simple basic things, the tools, rudimentary concepts and so forth. This is why almost anyone with a little experience can identify wing chun when they see it. Beyond that as we get deeper things get much more individualized, have wide variation and are no longer in common.

Nice post TC101..... you sum Hendriks approach to this very well

[tc101]

The worst part of it is he Hendrik wants to use his DNA as THE DEFINITION of wing chun. He even uses the word definition and will say if you are not doing things as he defines them then you are not doing wing chun. This is he will say not his subjective view but the law the ancestors laid down.

I do not think there is a DEFINITION of wing chun and I think trying to look at wing chun that way makes no sense, and only leads to the you are not doing wing chun because you are not doing it like I think you should argument. Wing chun does not have a definition or DNA but does have distinguishing features and those are on the top most layer. We can all identify a duck on sight just like we can wing chun.

[KPM]

tc101: You made some good points earlier, but like most of us I think you are guilty of taking things a little too far.

The worst part of it is he Hendrik wants to use his DNA as THE DEFINITION of wing chun.

I take him as trying to define what would qualify as a redboat lineage Wing Chun, not Wing Chun as a whole.

I do not think there is a DEFINITION of wing chun and I think trying to look at wing chun that way makes no sense,

I guess it depends on how you define "definition". ;) You said yourself that someone with a little knowledge can spot the distinguishing features that identify something as Wing Chun. Don't those distinguishing features then "define" Wing Chun to a certain extent?

But there are different levels of distinguishing features. Some distinguishing features will set Yip Man Wing Chun apart from Yeun Kay Shan Wing Chun. Some distinguishing features will set HFY Wing Chun apart from Pin Sun Wing Chun. All of these can be pretty obvious. But other distinguishing features may not be so obvious to the untrained observer.

But again, I agree with many of your previous points. To some extent all of this "historical research" into Wing Chun's roots may a futile search. If solid evidence is not documented, then there is nothing solid to find. In the end it may very well be just another set of conjectures and story-telling. But at least the effort is being made to find as much of the facts behind the stories as possible.

[Jim Roselando]

Hendrik,

Thanks for the info..

For others looking for this type of info you need to investigate Chinese Freemasonry historic info. and can see how this relates to the establishment of the Five Grand Lodges of Hung Mun.

Another question? Leung Lon Kwai would have been the person to teach the others WCK. Does anyone know around what year he started teaching the pre 1855 group? Also, I would imagine the Law family must come from the post 1855 era as they are practicing 3 fist sets?

Wong Wah Bo may not have been involved but would have been there training with them during that time period as he had knowledge of both the single long set and 3 sets. Perhaps after the revolution started he decided to go back to Gulao and this is why he could teach others like Fok Bo Chuen. Also, Leung Jan was not involved but similar to his Leung ancestors/family he was no dout a high hand of his region for several decades.


Hope all is well!


Peace,

Jim






From the history from the hung mun 1850,

Leung LAN Kwai himself is a Hung Mun Leader who is tightly related to the red boat opera and fine jade hall. He was pseudoname as NG Mui among other four other hung mun leaders in that era. These five people was pseudoname as the five elderly of shaolin in 1855. And as we can confirm today, in deed the burning of fine jade hall is pseudoname as the burning of shaolin in 1855 by the hung mun, since the hung mun record note has surfaced to public.

Lee man mau, yik kam, Leung LAN Kwai . law ancestor of snake crne wck are belongs to the same group of anti Qing people.

We can verify these people via the official Chinese history and hung mun records today.
We know WWB doesn't involve deep as these above guys in the uprising, thus . Leung jan can teach in public, right after the taiping uprising were destroy by Qing.

Same with the founder of Choy lee fut, chan heng, who train the taiping army, has to run away from china , wcners who involved in the uprising have to go hiding. But Leung Jan stay in the area and start teaching.

[Hendrik]

As in the article,

Law family is the first generation of post 1855. In fact law family can be trace from their code to be the executioners of hung mun 1855. So, these are people right in the middle of the uprising. Train in Wck to carry out their mission/job.

No doubt WWB and Leung Jan are high hand in Wck at that era. However , they are different type compare with those who deal with thousands of life and death. Ie a mma pro fighter team and navi seal sniper team. Both has their value.








Hendrik,

Thanks for the info..

For others looking for this type of info you need to investigate Chinese Freemasonry historic info. and can see how this relates to the establishment of the Five Grand Lodges of Hung Mun.

Another question? Leung Lon Kwai would have been the person to teach the others WCK. Does anyone know around what year he started teaching the pre 1855 group? Also, I would imagine the Law family must come from the post 1855 era as they are practicing 3 fist sets?

Wong Wah Bo may not have been involved but would have been there training with them during that time period as he had knowledge of both the single long set and 3 sets. Perhaps after the revolution started he decided to go back to Gulao and this is why he could teach others like Fok Bo Chuen. Also, Leung Jan was not involved but similar to his Leung ancestors/family he was no dout a high hand of his region for several decades.


Hope all is well!


Peace,

Jim






From the history from the hung mun 1850,

Leung LAN Kwai himself is a Hung Mun Leader who is tightly related to the red boat opera and fine jade hall. He was pseudoname as NG Mui among other four other hung mun leaders in that era. These five people was pseudoname as the five elderly of shaolin in 1855. And as we can confirm today, in deed the burning of fine jade hall is pseudoname as the burning of shaolin in 1855 by the hung mun, since the hung mun record note has surfaced to public.

Lee man mau, yik kam, Leung LAN Kwai . law ancestor of snake crne wck are belongs to the same group of anti Qing people.

We can verify these people via the official Chinese history and hung mun records today.
We know WWB doesn't involve deep as these above guys in the uprising, thus . Leung jan can teach in public, right after the taiping uprising were destroy by Qing.

Same with the founder of Choy lee fut, chan heng, who train the taiping army, has to run away from china , wcners who involved in the uprising have to go hiding. But Leung Jan stay in the area and start teaching.

[Hendrik]

Any of you read my previous post?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1236688&postcount=170


That is a description of a reality.

I really don't see easy way of transfer these knowledge and experience in words. Because it involve many different elements. Not to mention culture gap between Chinese and western, ancient and modern.

Ie. We today with modern western mind set after newtonian era has a assumption of whatever we can think we know. But it is not that way. That is where we got into having lots of theory and if what other describe others doesn't fit our theory then it is wrong.




Thus, I brought up the biofeedback coherence state ..etc . Which is a fact in ancient slt development attainment but the mind will not be able to know what it is unless after one experience it . Because the mind doesn't know thus, it cannot appreciate it. Thus, many will argue that is not useful...etc.


Similarly, if one practice the YKT and snake engine process and have some development, one will see things which others cannot think it exist without experience. One can spot right away what is the different but others will no way to know even one keep thinking.




So, facing these reality, I choose to do mass data dumping. Instead of trying to explain things. Because one will not know or understand what it is unless one develop it to that level.

To let people take as much as they can , continous to develop, and experience as much as they can. And hope that after they experience it, they can express their attainment in their own language and their culture. That is a better way of direct transfer. Instead of via words. Which is trouble . So, attaint as much as you can and then tell what it is in your language.

I too complain to my sifu on can he explain more . But to find out when I reach that level things are obvious. Ie. what is a quite mind or silence? When one can drop ones breathing under five rep per mins with ease, there one starts to know what is the silence or quite or less noise mind , but before that one don't know. If one can do that, they can enter into silence just by dropping the mind body just one step.. That simple . No need to think.

Btw. I repeat alots in my YouTube because I am repeating the important keys. Most people will think why repeat so much. Well, unless one has attain it. Otherwise, better keep repeat that to not missed one step. If one step missing, one will not be able to enter. Again, it is not reading a book, it is to attain the state . Reading book can skip or scan, in development missing a step will lock one out until one recover it. Like a grand mother nagging at grandson on critical keys, but the grandson keep saying i already know but not knowing. Is a reality in learning . IMHO.

Keep digging into it and at some point you will notice when your friend doesn't know what you are talking about. Hahaha


In additional, many things doesn't have western equivalent . So, similar as learn a language , it is better to learn it fresh then trying to translate one language to another. Also, ie. one cannot learn Beethoven music via translate that to Chinese music. The Chinese music has only five notes while the western has seven.




As for DNA,

As I explain in the previous post. "DNA " exist in ancient. Because tcma is a technology. DNA is as clear as micro soft window operating system and apple iOS . Micro soft doesn't use apple iOS and apple iOS doesn't based on window os.


For the core DNA of all red boat era Wck is the snake body crane limbs. That is the soul of Wck and the goal of snt development. Remember it is a technology not a believe, not everyone's idea is equal. ie. if it is apple iOS, it has to be develop and function as apple iOS.

But, with time changes, things evolve and vary. When it get to the west , the general western mind set is every ideas are equal. Thus, this dna subject got suppress. You can see how much resistance are there . Many reject it right away even before knowing what it is.




So, the first core DNA of red boar era Wck across all lineages is snake body.

Today it has evolved but the root is still there.

As hawkin from ipman lineage called it snake body in his YouTube, Some called it the way of willow.

And late Gm Fung Chun of kulo , the direct grand student of Dr Leung Jan describe some of its characteristics in this YouTube. Clear describe it is not the wide stance based from shaolin.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=aw9sphTMAY0&list=FL6pQB3CKazNhYpkoq1yqayA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Daw9sphTMAY0%26list%3DFL 6pQB3CKazNhYpkoq1yqayA


One can also find it in snake crane wing chun and yks Wck.


Technically, this snake body set the platform for Wck technology, it is the platform needs to be develop in snt training. And then Wck technology build on top of this platform .
historically, this is the technology import from the emei 12 zhuang technology. Thus, it is not from shaolin platform or white crane which is using San cin platform.


So, if you examine all red boat era Wck and its second or third generation. You will find they all converge to the snake body. Go to the most villages place in china which is slower to be influence by out side world go to late Gm Fung chun generation. You will see the snake body DNA shows up in their art.

There sure many thing can be talk about on the snake body characteristics or the details of the dna in depth, and that has to go one level down into the six core elements. In that level one sees clearly what is what.

For example, one get down to atom level , then to electron and proton level, to see how the electrons spin ,...etc. where one can not tell a different in particle level. But in the electrons level one sees all the difference.


So, by red boat era wing chun kuen definition Wck must have a snake body DNA. As iPad has to have apple iOS.



My goal is to describe what I know, not to pursue anyone, not to get anyone to join my cult. But to leave a trace for those who is doing research, that they can find once upon a time, some one has raise this issue. As I have jokingly told my brother sifu Robert Chu. If I come back next live, by the YouTube data I have left . Very quickly I will get back my state . :D





I tend to agree with what KPM says here, particularly the bits I highlight in italic.

Hendrik, I think one issue why people, myself included, struggle to understand and follow you at points is because there is lack of brevity on your behalf in your video clips. I think this is partly down to there being a lot of repetition and repeating of points across and within single video clips.

Hendrik, have jox and yourself furthered that document outlying the 'DNA' any further? I actually thought that document the best direction to go in to refine your arguments and points, particularly if you guys went a little further into the biomechanics, from a 'western' 'sports science' point of view i.e. like this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Athletic-Ability-Anatomy-Motion-Wirhed/dp/0723433860) , that characterize this 'DNA'.

[kentchang]

Originally posted by KPM
and to people who try to use a legend as history to justify there position or what they are doing. "Black Flag" Wing Chun was a total farce.

William Cheung Chi Sao at Shaolin Temple
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neHoJZ5OnqI

William Cheung gave credit to the legend of Shaolin 5 ancestors as well as Leung Bik to back up the history of TWC. No matter if this is a 100% or partially true story, at least Cheung has presented TWC to the abbot at the Shaolin Temple many times and no Shaolin monks have argued with his presentation there. But the black flag stuff and the made up story of 5 flag WC is totally out of the ballpark. Many of the reports directly from the 18 lohan school members all point to one conclusion: Black Flag WC is a 100% farce!

Here is the link of Black Flag WC to the FB page
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Planet...55251561276573

Hendrik rejects the legend of WC coming from the Shaolin Temple and the existence of Leung Bik etc. That's ok! Because its just his own opinion and his lacking of actual experience in WC. On the flip side of the coin, Hendrik keeps trying to sell his story of Omei as the ancestor of WC but he cannot provide one single fact to support his claim. Yes, he has thousands of posts with the same stories in many forums. But that doesn't change this fact, cherry picked, not real history of WC, no real research etc. Why doesn't Yip Man and other WC lineages do Omei chi gung ? Without the direct experience of other WC in depth, why does he always try to speak for others presenting his opinions as a fact? Even the latest cut and paste material he presented, I find it very confusing when he said that's a fact. No, that's not a fact and there was no evidence of any kind to support it, It was just some folk story from a different part of China. There were many other groups of rebellious boxers uprising against the Manchu all over China during that period. Were they all related to red boat or wing chun? No, 90% of them were unrelated to WC or the red boat opera group. There might be a small percentage of opera members also belonging to the boxer society. You can't find any real names of red boat wc people or a direct connection to WWB or LYT in those $1.95 comic books that Hendrik reads for fact finding. Unrelated groups of boxers existed in different part of China and they weren't one big association. All of this loose information and unproved third hand stories should never be considered evidence of any kind. It's just an oral history at best. Like calling a turkey a chicken, it doesn't fit. Yik Kam's Omei chi gung isn't the WC ancestor. If you don't believe it, then please provide where the Omei animal style chi gung exists in Yip Man, Yiu Choi, Pam Nam and other WC lineages.

[tc101]

tc101: You made some good points earlier, but like most of us I think you are guilty of taking things a little too far.

The worst part of it is he Hendrik wants to use his DNA as THE DEFINITION of wing chun.

I take him as trying to define what would qualify as a redboat lineage Wing Chun, not Wing Chun as a whole.


A lineage does not need a definition all it needs is a line of persons that go back to the red boats. Once you show that you can stop.



I do not think there is a DEFINITION of wing chun and I think trying to look at wing chun that way makes no sense,

I guess it depends on how you define "definition". ;) You said yourself that someone with a little knowledge can spot the distinguishing features that identify something as Wing Chun. Don't those distinguishing features then "define" Wing Chun to a certain extent?


No it is not the same thing at all and I think you know that.

It is really easy to identify a duck just as it is really easy to identify boxing or wing chun or muay thai.



But there are different levels of distinguishing features. Some distinguishing features will set Yip Man Wing Chun apart from Yeun Kay Shan Wing Chun. Some distinguishing features will set HFY Wing Chun apart from Pin Sun Wing Chun. All of these can be pretty obvious. But other distinguishing features may not be so obvious to the untrained observer.


Those distinguishing features are not on a deeper level, they are on the same top obvious level and are simply variations on the same wing chun distinctive features.



But again, I agree with many of your previous points. To some extent all of this "historical research" into Wing Chun's roots may a futile search. If solid evidence is not documented, then there is nothing solid to find. In the end it may very well be just another set of conjectures and story-telling. But at least the effort is being made to find as much of the facts behind the stories as possible.

I am sorry but I do not see this as the case. The effort Hendrik is making is collecting his so called evidence and conclusions to support his predetermined result he just calls them facts. The ultimate conclusion will be of course that his lineage has the real goods the true defining wing chun.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik rejects the legend of WC coming from the Shaolin Temple .
That's ok! Because its just his own opinion and his lacking of actual experience in WC.--------




Listen to what was said in kulo village the home town of dr. Leung jan by his direct grand student on shaolin.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=aw9sphTMAY0&list=FL6pQB3CKazNhYpkoq1yqayA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Daw9sphTMAY0%26list%3DFL 6pQB3CKazNhYpkoq1yqayA





Hendrik keeps trying to sell his story of Omei as the ancestor of WC but he cannot provide one single fact to support his claim. -------



Read the following article by snake crane wing chun lineage in details. Where specific details link with emei by evidence.

http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/ccwayne/scwc-explore-thesourceofthesnakeandcraneelementsoftheredboatera wingchunscwcykwaa


In 1855 we know there are three major lines of Wck, namely, WWB, Lo man Kung , and Yik kam lineage.

http://www.slideshare.net/mobile/ccwayne/scwc-tai-pingheavenlykingdomrevolutionerawingchuntransmissi onscwcykwaa-22229730


Late Gm Fung chun in the youtube interview above is from WWB lineage, Wayne in the paper is from lo man Kung lineage, I am from the yik kam lineage.

As above, after 160 years of Separation, the information of these lineages converges. It is not shaolin. It is not Hendrik opinion, Hendrik cannot and doesn't have the magic power to pursue Gm Fung chun or Wayne yung. Hendrik just reports the result of these three old red boat era Wck lineages.

[JPinAZ]

William Cheung Chi Sao at Shaolin Temple
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neHoJZ5OnqI

William Cheung gave credit to the legend of Shaolin 5 ancestors as well as Leung Bik to back up the history of TWC. No matter if this is a 100% or partially true story, at least Cheung has presented TWC to the abbot at the Shaolin Temple many times and no Shaolin monks have argued with his presentation there. But the black flag stuff and the made up story of 5 flag WC is totally out of the ballpark. Many of the reports directly from the 18 lohan school members all point to one conclusion: Black Flag WC is a 100% farce!

Here is the link of Black Flag WC to the FB page
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Planet...55251561276573

I forgot about his trips to the Shaolin Temple! And I don't see and reason William Cheung would lie about this - why would he? He clearly has the skill to go with the art, so no reason to make up any story. And he's not the only one that has talked about the Ip Man/Leung Bik connection. I've also heard that some of Leung Bik's own relatives have backed up the Ip Man/LB story. Only someone that has something to lose by this information being true would talk against it.

Black Flag is a modern day Frankenstein imo and isn't even worth the discussion :)


Hendrik rejects the legend of WC coming from the Shaolin Temple and the existence of Leung Bik etc. That's ok! Because its just his own opinion and his lacking of actual experience in WC. On the flip side of the coin, Hendrik keeps trying to sell his story of Omei as the ancestor of WC but he cannot provide one single fact to support his claim. Yes, he has thousands of posts with the same stories in many forums. But that doesn't change this fact, cherry picked, not real history of WC, no real research etc. Why doesn't Yip Man and other WC lineages do Omei chi gung ? Without the direct experience of other WC in depth, why does he always try to speak for others presenting his opinions as a fact? Even the latest cut and paste material he presented, I find it very confusing when he said that's a fact. No, that's not a fact and there was no evidence of any kind to support it, It was just some folk story from a different part of China. There were many other groups of rebellious boxers uprising against the Manchu all over China during that period. Were they all related to red boat or wing chun? No, 90% of them were unrelated to WC or the red boat opera group. There might be a small percentage of opera members also belonging to the boxer society. You can't find any real names of red boat wc people or a direct connection to WWB or LYT in those $1.95 comic books that Hendrik reads for fact finding. Unrelated groups of boxers existed in different part of China and they weren't one big association. All of this loose information and unproved third hand stories should never be considered evidence of any kind. It's just an oral history at best. Like calling a turkey a chicken, it doesn't fit. Yik Kam's Omei chi gung isn't the WC ancestor. If you don't believe it, then please provide where the Omei animal style chi gung exists in Yip Man, Yiu Choi, Pam Nam and other WC lineages.

LOL @ hendrik getting his 'facts' from $1.95 comic books! That's probably closer to the truth that we might think!

Interesting point with YK's wc being the only one wc today that has this omei chi gung added. If this was the true source like hendrik claims, you'd think it would be a lot commonly seen. Sounds a bit like another wc frankenstein to me :)
But it's good to hear I'm not the only one that finds it a unusual that hendik tries to act like an authority on all these wck lineages without an ounce of actual experience in any of them but one YK animal style wck. Does he even officially represent his own lineage? I've heard he doesn't... (but could be wrong)

[tc101]

As above, after 160 years of Separation, the information of these lineages converges. It is not shaolin. It is not Hendrik opinion, Hendrik cannot and doesn't have the magic power to pursue Gm Fung chun or Wayne yung. Hendrik just reports the result of these three old red boat era Wck lineages.

Does not the Yip Man lineage in Yip Man's own written words say his lineage comes from Shaolin?

Does not YKS lineage also report that their lineage comes from Shaolin?

How many other branches also say Shoalin?

This is another example of cherry picking.

I am not saying wing chun comes from Shoalin just that Hendrik picks only those evidences that support his view.

[Hendrik]

1. You can keep your cherry pick theory as long as you love, while the Wck world is converging.



Read for yourself the history of yks Wck is it from shaolin ? Read carefully.

(legends) hold that the art that would become Wing Chun kuen began roughly 200 years ago with the nun Ng Mui (Wumei, Five Plums). Ng Mui fled the destruction of the Siu Lam Jee (Shaolin Si, Young Forest Temple) Temple in Fujian province and,


hunted by Ching troops, sought refuge at the Bak Hok Jee (Baihe Si, White Crane Temple) atop the Emei Mountains in Sichuan province. There, Ng Mui witnessed a battle between a snake and a crane. This inspired her to create a new martial arts system which she named “white crane boxing” after the noble after the noble bird that had ultimately proven victorious.

Ng Mui taught the art to a monk named Miu Shun (Miao Shun).

Combining the nun’s white crane boxing with his previous martial knowledge and refining both, Miu Shun developed a new, as yet unnamed art.

Miu Shun passed this art on to Yim Yee (Yan Er). Yim Yee had been a part of the rebellious Hung Mun (Hong Men, Vast Gate)’s militant Hung Gwun (Hong Gun, Red Pole) division in Fujian. When the Manchurians discovered their activities, Yim Yee fled to Guangxi to escape arrest and certain execution. Settling there with his infant daughter, Yim Yee established a tofu shop and, meeting Miu Shun, he became the monk’s sole disciple and learned the blended art of Ng Mui.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/history/history_legends.html






NG Mui is a well known fujian white crane figure .
Miu shun is from emei .

Wing chun kuen is a creation of Miu shun with NG Mui art and his own emei martial art, Which is now had been identied and has been verified as the emei 12 zhuang.



Hahaha, this is an evidence of a bias mind set without investigating
or a cherry picking a convergence common denominator of the red boat era Wck lineages ?

Now, Kulo from Leung jan, YKS, Snake Crane , and Yik kam all says it is not shaolin. Did I cherry pick? Is match up common denominator a cherry pick?



2. It is perfectly fine with me if you believe in the following, which is not cherry pick but Modification and Public Awareness.




http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=141

The Concept Design and Field Testing stage began at the Southern Shaolin Temple in 1670's A.D. during a time of war and revolution in Southern China. Highly trained tacticians and teachers needed a single system that could be called upon to address the numerous threats of the myriad of fighting styles employed throughout China. A cutting-edge combat system was needed. The challenge to create such a system was picked up by the warrior monks of the Southern Temple and fugitive General Officers of the remnant Ming Dynasty (m?hng ch?uh) army. The Wing Chun Tong (w?hng che?n t?hng) in the Southern Shaolin Temple was dedicated to these goals. The characters used in the name of this hall translate directly to "Everlasting Spring," the original name given the system. The name itself represents the essence of Shaolin Chan (Zen) kungfu. It represented a secret code used by the designers calling for the rebirth of the




The ten years intensive training required to master classical Shaolin postures was not logistically viable. This version of Wing Chun may have been created by a different group within the same Wing Chun Tong or the same group heavily influenced by military thinking from Ming Dynasty officers; either way, members of the Chu royal family, the former leaders of the Ming Dynasty, supported this group. This is the first time in the development of Shaolin fighting systems that time and space themselves became the focal point of design consideration. They provided the "idea" in the first level of Siu Nim Tao (Little Beginning Idea) training. The military implications of this decision are far too extensive for review here. Suffice it to say the physical science expertise of the monks, resulting from their relentless ...








Revolutionaries and Secret Societies


Wing Chun Flourishes

The second phase of Wing Chun development, Modification and Public Awareness, arose and flourished over the next 100 years. During this era, Wing Chun went through its third period of major change in form, footwork, and structure. Environmental and cultural factors such as exposure to life on boats in the southern coastal regions of China for over 100 years may have heavily influenced stances and training methodologies. The art began a transition from military employment to civilian use and support.

As a result of this transition, Wing Chun outside the Hung Fa Yi tradition began to discard its scientific orientation and revert back to a focus based on individual expressions and personal experience. Likewise, students were no longer required to endure hours of initiation ceremonies and blood oaths to fight to the death for a specific cause. Nevertheless, Wing Chun's fighting effectiveness continued, as repeatedly demonstrated in challenge matches with other styles and individual opponents. The majority of today's most popular lineages stem from roots in this era. Two of those lineages stem from one man alone for each: Yip Man and Gu Lao (g? l?uh). Both originated from Dr. Leung Jan (l?uhng jaan), who learned his Wing Chun directly from Red Opera members. Others lineages include Pao Fa Lien (p?auh f? l?hn), Yuen Kay San (y?n k?ih-s?an), Pan Nam (p?ahng n?ahm), Nanyang (n?ahm y?uhng), Cho family (ch?uh ga), and numerous subsystems practiced throughout Southeast Asia.









Does not the Yip Man lineage in Yip Man's own written words say his lineage comes from Shaolin?

Does not YKS lineage also report that their lineage comes from Shaolin?

How many other branches also say Shoalin?

This is another example of cherry picking.

I am not saying wing chun comes from Shoalin just that Hendrik picks only those evidences that support his view.

[KPM]

A lineage does not need a definition all it needs is a line of persons that go back to the red boats. Once you show that you can stop.

But those lineages or "line of persons" are just as "legendary" as anything else! There is no way to prove the existence of anyone earlier than Leung Jan.


No it is not the same thing at all and I think you know that.

So what do you see as being the difference between "distinguishing features" and "defining features"? A duck has the distinguishing features of webbed feet, a bill, and skinny neck, a feathery tale, and wings. Don't those features "define" what is a "duck" to a certain extent?


Those distinguishing features are not on a deeper level, they are on the same top obvious level and are simply variations on the same wing chun distinctive features.

How do you know what distinguishing features I was even referring to?


I am sorry but I do not see this as the case. The effort Hendrik is making is collecting his so called evidence and conclusions to support his predetermined result he just calls them facts. The ultimate conclusion will be of course that his lineage has the real goods the true defining wing chun.

Ok. No problem. But just be careful that you haven't made up your mind as to what is what, just as you accuse Hendrik of doing. I try to keep at least a little bit of an open mind. ;)

[k gledhill]

A lineage does not need a definition all it needs is a line of persons that go back to the red boats. Once you show that you can stop.

But those lineages or "line of persons" are just as "legendary" as anything else! There is no way to prove the existence of anyone earlier than Leung Jan.


No it is not the same thing at all and I think you know that.

So what do you see as being the difference between "distinguishing features" and "defining features"? A duck has the distinguishing features of webbed feet, a bill, and skinny neck, a feathery tale, and wings. Don't those features "define" what is a "duck" to a certain extent?


Those distinguishing features are not on a deeper level, they are on the same top obvious level and are simply variations on the same wing chun distinctive features.

How do you know what distinguishing features I was even referring to?


I am sorry but I do not see this as the case. The effort Hendrik is making is collecting his so called evidence and conclusions to support his predetermined result he just calls them facts. The ultimate conclusion will be of course that his lineage has the real goods the true defining wing chun.

Ok. No problem. But just be careful that you haven't made up your mind as to what is what, just as you accuse Hendrik of doing. I try to keep at least a little bit of an open mind. ;)

Good duck reference !! ; )

[KPM]

I forgot about his trips to the Shaolin Temple! And I don't see and reason William Cheung would lie about this - why would he?

Well, not to open another whole can of worms, but...................

What does William Cheung demo'ing at the Shaolin Temple have to do with anything? So he repeats the story that Wing Chun descended from the Shaolin Temple, 90% of the Kung Fu styles in China say the same thing. Why would the Abbott bother to disagree with him? And who said William Cheung would be lying about this? He very likely believes it just like the majority of Wing Chun people. But just because William Cheung believes it doesn't make it true.

As far as the Leung Bik story, William Cheung most certainly had reason to put this forward as true. He broke from Yip Man and all of his Wing Chun brothers and started doing something very different. He justified this with the Leung Bik story, saying he was doing Leung Bik's "real" and "traditional" Wing Chun, while everyone else (including Wong Shun Leung, etc.) were doing a watered down "modified" version of Wing Chun from Chan Wah Shun that wasn't as good. Sound familiar? "My Wing Chun is better than your Wing Chun, lalalalala!"

But William Cheung and what he believes is entirely irrelevant to the present discussion, so I digress. ;)

[hunt1]

Far to many fanatics to really have an open discussion. We have histories written by people that were actually there compared to oral stories researched by questionable teachers with a clear profit motive in their conclusions. There is nothing to be gained by arguing which set of stories is closer to the truth of 1850 era wing chun.

The only question that needs be asked is how do you perform the core wing chun principal's, "Receive what comes". How do you receive? How do you then "follow what goes"? How do you then "control the opponents center of gravity"? How do you "transfer energy through the spine"? How do you "maintain your own center of Gravity"? How do you do all these things simultaneously while engaged with the opponent?

[KPM]

Does not the Yip Man lineage in Yip Man's own written words say his lineage comes from Shaolin?

Does not YKS lineage also report that their lineage comes from Shaolin?

How many other branches also say Shoalin?

This is another example of cherry picking.

I am not saying wing chun comes from Shoalin just that Hendrik picks only those evidences that support his view.

But they don't! These lineages say that Wing Chun began with Ng Mui. She may have been Shaolin, but Wing Chun was created AFTER the burning of the southern temple. Ng Mui's own personal martial art isn't even referred to as a "Shaolin System." It was something she developed herself. Then this art was combined with things later to become Wing Chun. THAT is what the legends say. So what Ng Mui's art was combined with is the topic of our current debate.

[tc101]

A lineage does not need a definition all it needs is a line of persons that go back to the red boats. Once you show that you can stop.

But those lineages or "line of persons" are just as "legendary" as anything else! There is no way to prove the existence of anyone earlier than Leung Jan.


Then lets leave it t that.



No it is not the same thing at all and I think you know that.

So what do you see as being the difference between "distinguishing features" and "defining features"? A duck has the distinguishing features of webbed feet, a bill, and skinny neck, a feathery tale, and wings. Don't those features "define" what is a "duck" to a certain extent?


Those distinguishing features are not on a deeper level, they are on the same top obvious level and are simply variations on the same wing chun distinctive features.

How do you know what distinguishing features I was even referring to?


Why are we getting into semantic arguments? We can all recognize a duck or wing chun it is not complicated, it does not need expertise, it does not take lots of research, and so forth.



I am sorry but I do not see this as the case. The effort Hendrik is making is collecting his so called evidence and conclusions to support his predetermined result he just calls them facts. The ultimate conclusion will be of course that his lineage has the real goods the true defining wing chun.

Ok. No problem. But just be careful that you haven't made up your mind as to what is what, just as you accuse Hendrik of doing. I try to keep at least a little bit of an open mind. ;)

That is a fair warning and I will keep it in mind.

There are certain ways of presentation and argument that immediately raise red flags in my thinking and I see them both in the conspiracy theorists like the Twin Tower people and Hendrik's writings and talks. The parallel is there.

[tc101]

But they don't! These lineages say that Wing Chun began with Ng Mui. She may have been Shaolin, but Wing Chun was created AFTER the burning of the southern temple. Ng Mui's own personal martial art isn't even referred to as a "Shaolin System." It was something she developed herself. Then this art was combined with things later to become Wing Chun. THAT is what the legends say. So what Ng Mui's art was combined with is the topic of our current debate.

Now the legens says she came from Shaolin and was a Shaolin nun, right? That is the source of wing chun since that is the source of the creator.

[KPM]

Why are we getting into semantic arguments? We can all recognize a duck or wing chun it is not complicated, it does not need expertise, it does not take lots of research, and so forth.

I don't know. You were the one that adamantly denied the idea that Wing Chun could be "defined." I was simply pointing out that your "distinguishing features" were a way of "defining" and so you were kind of contradicting yourself.

Now now she came from Shaolin.

But one of the founders coming from Shaolin is not the same as saying that Wing Chun is a "Shaolin Martial Art." Just compare the legend to the HFY version of history that Hendrik repeated earlier. As a comparison, Southern Preying Mantis legends say that the founder Som Dot was from Tibet. Does that make Southern Preying Mantis a "Tibetan Martial Art"?

[tc101]

Why are we getting into semantic arguments? We can all recognize a duck or wing chun it is not complicated, it does not need expertise, it does not take lots of research, and so forth.

I don't know. You were the one that adamantly denied the idea that Wing Chun could be "defined." I was simply pointing out that your "distinguishing features" were a way of "defining" and so you were kind of contradicting yourself.


I think having distinguishing features is NOT the same as defining something. I do not think defining is even appropriate for a martial art. You can for example recognize a place by its distinguishing features like the Empire State Building in NYC. That is not the same thing as trying to define NYC which does not make sense.

What Hendrik is trying to do with his DNA device is say this or that is or is not proper wing chun since it either meets or does not meet his definition. His DNA is his definition of wing chun. I am saying that way of looking at wing chun is not even appropriate. You do not look at urban DNA to know which city you are in all you need is a few landmarks and you know where you are no definitions involved.



Now now she came from Shaolin.

But one of the founders coming from Shaolin is not the same as saying that Wing Chun is a "Shaolin Martial Art." Just compare the legend to the HFY version of history that Hendrik repeated earlier. As a comparison, Southern Preying Mantis legends say that the founder Som Dot was from Tibet. Does that make Southern Preying Mantis a "Tibetan Martial Art"?

According to legend she was THE originator of the art. She came from Shaolin. As a Shaolin nun is it not presumed and this is legend of course that she was trained in Shaolin arts? If the legend was a Shaolin monk would you say that too does not mean his art is Shaolin?

This is just a story.

[Hendrik]

What Hendrik is trying to do with his DNA device is say this or that is or is not proper wing chun since it either meets or does not meet his definition.

His DNA is his definition of wing chun. I am saying that way of looking at wing chun is not even appropriate.


You do not look at urban DNA to know which city you are in all you need is a few landmarks and you know where you are no definitions involved.


Late Gm Fung Chun define Wck in his YouTube interview in my previous post.
Very specific.

Wayne Jung describe his snake crane wing chun snt very specifically in his snake and crane root article in my previous post.




As I keep saying, snt the core of Wck is not up to me, but the creator has define it clearly when he created the set.



If you don't follow the basic core definitions in your Wck snt practice , then, what snt are you practicing and what Kung fu are you developing? Are you practicing slt?


Or are you trying to creat your own Wck with your idea as the following clip?
Where trying to replace Wck mechanics with shaolin Weng chun kuen mechanics? How does that work?

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=youtube_gdata&v=q8qiBsOvceQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dq8qiBsOvceQ%26feature%3 Dyoutube_gdata

The above clip is n excellent example of having no understanding on the DNA of the Art. Starting 2.03 is exactly what will happen when one think one know but one really doesn't know the wck dna , why , what , how snt practice.

[tc101]

You can repeat your same argument as many times as you like it still won't make it valid. All your cherry picked evidence, unspoken assumptions, poor reasoning and so forth no reasonable person will buy into.

I can show unlabeled videos to the people on this forum and they all would easily identify the wing chun, the boxing, the may Thai and so forth without needing to know any definition or DNA or have some Chinese wing chun practitioner tell them. They are all easily identifiable by the distinguishing features of the various arts. No one needs to tell them or define it for them. They don't need Mike Tyson to define boxing to recognize it.

Wing chun is not only what the originators did and how they did it any more than boxing is only what the originators of boxing did. The art encompasses it all. There is no single right way. Good or bad it is still wing chun and still boxing. What Leung Jan did and what someone does today are both wing chun just like what Jim Corbett and the guys at the gym do is boxing. Neither is a fixed thing.

Your questions about mixing wing chun and weng chun only show you do not understand martial art. A martial arts tools or techniques and how they are applied go hand in hand with the arts mechanics. I will ask your question about boxing. What happens when you try to use boxing techniques with karate mechanics? You will have poor boxing since you are using inappropriate mechanics or mechanics that don't support the techniques.

[Hendrik]

Believe anything you love .


But at the end of the day can one make even ones snt work to develop Wck basic as Wck suppose to ?

Could you explain what the wing chun guy snt practice is supposed to develop in the above weng Chun wing chun clip starting 2.03 ? Let get to the details on what, why, how since this is a wck snt thread.

If you can't then you don't know wing chun snt. So, obviously you don't know Wck DNA.
As in your previous post, you keep repeating general but never get into specific . I hope I am wrong about you, so please share with us your view on the above question.






You can repeat your same argument as many times as you like it still won't make it valid. All your cherry picked evidence, unspoken assumptions, poor reasoning and so forth no reasonable person will buy into.

I can show unlabeled videos to the people on this forum and they all would easily identify the wing chun, the boxing, the may Thai and so forth without needing to know any definition or DNA or have some Chinese wing chun practitioner tell them. They are all easily identifiable by the distinguishing features of the various arts. No one needs to tell them or define it for them. They don't need Mike Tyson to define boxing to recognize it.

Wing chun is not only what the originators did and how they did it any more than boxing is only what the originators of boxing did. The art encompasses it all. There is no single right way. Good or bad it is still wing chun and still boxing. What Leung Jan did and what someone does today are both wing chun just like what Jim Corbett and the guys at the gym do is boxing. Neither is a fixed thing.

Your questions about mixing wing chun and weng chun only show you do not understand martial art. A martial arts tools or techniques and how they are applied go hand in hand with the arts mechanics. I will ask your question about boxing. What happens when you try to use boxing techniques with karate mechanics? You will have poor boxing since you are using inappropriate mechanics or mechanics that don't support the techniques.

[PalmStriker]

Any of you read my previous post?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1236688&postcount=170


That is a description of a reality.

I really don't see easy way of transfer these knowledge and experience in words. Because it involve many different elements. Not to mention culture gap between Chinese and western, ancient and modern.

Ie. We today with modern western mind set after newtonian era has a assumption of whatever we can think we know. But it is not that way. That is where we got into having lots of theory and if what other describe others doesn't fit our theory then it is wrong.




Thus, I brought up the biofeedback coherence state ..etc . Which is a fact in ancient slt development attainment but the mind will not be able to know what it is unless after one experience it . Because the mind doesn't know thus, it cannot appreciate it. Thus, many will argue that is not useful...etc.


Similarly, if one practice the YKT and snake engine process and have some development, one will see things which others cannot think it exist without experience. One can spot right away what is the different but others will no way to know even one keep thinking.




So, facing these reality, I choose to do mass data dumping. Instead of trying to explain things. Because one will not know or understand what it is unless one develop it to that level.

To let people take as much as they can , continous to develop, and experience as much as they can. And hope that after they experience it, they can express their attainment in their own language and their culture. That is a better way of direct transfer. Instead of via words. Which is trouble . So, attaint as much as you can and then tell what it is in your language.

I too complain to my sifu on can he explain more . But to find out when I reach that level things are obvious. Ie. what is a quite mind or silence? When one can drop ones breathing under five rep per mins with ease, there one starts to know what is the silence or quite or less noise mind , but before that one don't know. If one can do that, they can enter into silence just by dropping the mind body just one step.. That simple . No need to think.

Btw. I repeat alots in my YouTube because I am repeating the important keys. Most people will think why repeat so much. Well, unless one has attain it. Otherwise, better keep repeat that to not missed one step. If one step missing, one will not be able to enter. Again, it is not reading a book, it is to attain the state . Reading book can skip or scan, in development missing a step will lock one out until one recover it. Like a grand mother nagging at grandson on critical keys, but the grandson keep saying i already know but not knowing. Is a reality in learning . IMHO.

Keep digging into it and at some point you will notice when your friend doesn't know what you are talking about. Hahaha


In additional, many things doesn't have western equivalent . So, similar as learn a language , it is better to learn it fresh then trying to translate one language to another. Also, ie. one cannot learn Beethoven music via translate that to Chinese music. The Chinese music has only five notes while the western has seven.




As for DNA,

As I explain in the previous post. "DNA " exist in ancient. Because tcma is a technology. DNA is as clear as micro soft window operating system and apple iOS . Micro soft doesn't use apple iOS and apple iOS doesn't based on window os.


For the core DNA of all red boat era Wck is the snake body crane limbs. That is the soul of Wck and the goal of snt development. Remember it is a technology not a believe, not everyone's idea is equal. ie. if it is apple iOS, it has to be develop and function as apple iOS.

But, with time changes, things evolve and vary. When it get to the west , the general western mind set is every ideas are equal. Thus, this dna subject got suppress. You can see how much resistance are there . Many reject it right away even before knowing what it is.




So, the first core DNA of red boar era Wck across all lineages is snake body.

Today it has evolved but the root is still there.

As hawkin from ipman lineage called it snake body in his YouTube, Some called it the way of willow.

And late Gm Fung Chun of kulo , the direct grand student of Dr Leung Jan describe some of its characteristics in this YouTube. Clear describe it is not the wide stance based from shaolin.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=aw9sphTMAY0&list=FL6pQB3CKazNhYpkoq1yqayA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Daw9sphTMAY0%26list%3DFL 6pQB3CKazNhYpkoq1yqayA


One can also find it in snake crane wing chun and yks Wck.


Technically, this snake body set the platform for Wck technology, it is the platform needs to be develop in snt training. And then Wck technology build on top of this platform .
historically, this is the technology import from the emei 12 zhuang technology. Thus, it is not from shaolin platform or white crane which is using San cin platform.


So, if you examine all red boat era Wck and its second or third generation. You will find they all converge to the snake body. Go to the most villages place in china which is slower to be influence by out side world go to late Gm Fung chun generation. You will see the snake body DNA shows up in their art.

There sure many thing can be talk about on the snake body characteristics or the details of the dna in depth, and that has to go one level down into the six core elements. In that level one sees clearly what is what.

For example, one get down to atom level , then to electron and proton level, to see how the electrons spin ,...etc. where one can not tell a different in particle level. But in the electrons level one sees all the difference.


So, by red boat era wing chun kuen definition Wck must have a snake body DNA. As iPad has to have apple iOS.



My goal is to describe what I know, not to pursue anyone, not to get anyone to join my cult. But to leave a trace for those who is doing research, that they can find once upon a time, some one has raise this issue. As I have jokingly told my brother sifu Robert Chu. If I come back next live, by the YouTube data I have left . Very quickly I will get back my state . :D
:) Thanks for the wealth of information in this post, Hendrik.

[Hendrik]

You are welcome.


Anyone interested in the wck DNA and what, why, how discussion on the above clip starting 2.0x?





:) Thanks for the wealth of information in this post, Hendrik.

[PalmStriker]

1. You can keep your cherry pick theory as long as you love, while the Wck world is converging.



Read for yourself the history of yks Wck is it from shaolin ? Read carefully.

(legends) hold that the art that would become Wing Chun kuen began roughly 200 years ago with the nun Ng Mui (Wumei, Five Plums). Ng Mui fled the destruction of the Siu Lam Jee (Shaolin Si, Young Forest Temple) Temple in Fujian province and,


hunted by Ching troops, sought refuge at the Bak Hok Jee (Baihe Si, White Crane Temple) atop the Emei Mountains in Sichuan province. There, Ng Mui witnessed a battle between a snake and a crane. This inspired her to create a new martial arts system which she named “white crane boxing” after the noble after the noble bird that had ultimately proven victorious.

Ng Mui taught the art to a monk named Miu Shun (Miao Shun).

Combining the nun’s white crane boxing with his previous martial knowledge and refining both, Miu Shun developed a new, as yet unnamed art.

Miu Shun passed this art on to Yim Yee (Yan Er). Yim Yee had been a part of the rebellious Hung Mun (Hong Men, Vast Gate)’s militant Hung Gwun (Hong Gun, Red Pole) division in Fujian. When the Manchurians discovered their activities, Yim Yee fled to Guangxi to escape arrest and certain execution. Settling there with his infant daughter, Yim Yee established a tofu shop and, meeting Miu Shun, he became the monk’s sole disciple and learned the blended art of Ng Mui.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/history/history_legends.html






NG Mui is a well known fujian white crane figure .
Miu shun is from emei .

Wing chun kuen is a creation of Miu shun with NG Mui art and his own emei martial art, Which is now had been identied and has been verified as the emei 12 zhuang.



Hahaha, this is an evidence of a bias mind set without investigating
or a cherry picking a convergence common denominator of the red boat era Wck lineages ?

Now, Kulo from Leung jan, YKS, Snake Crane , and Yik kam all says it is not shaolin. Did I cherry pick? Is match up common denominator a cherry pick?



2. It is perfectly fine with me if you believe in the following, which is not cherry pick but Modification and Public Awareness.




http://www.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=141

The Concept Design and Field Testing stage began at the Southern Shaolin Temple in 1670's A.D. during a time of war and revolution in Southern China. Highly trained tacticians and teachers needed a single system that could be called upon to address the numerous threats of the myriad of fighting styles employed throughout China. A cutting-edge combat system was needed. The challenge to create such a system was picked up by the warrior monks of the Southern Temple and fugitive General Officers of the remnant Ming Dynasty (m?hng ch?uh) army. The Wing Chun Tong (w?hng che?n t?hng) in the Southern Shaolin Temple was dedicated to these goals. The characters used in the name of this hall translate directly to "Everlasting Spring," the original name given the system. The name itself represents the essence of Shaolin Chan (Zen) kungfu. It represented a secret code used by the designers calling for the rebirth of the




The ten years intensive training required to master classical Shaolin postures was not logistically viable. This version of Wing Chun may have been created by a different group within the same Wing Chun Tong or the same group heavily influenced by military thinking from Ming Dynasty officers; either way, members of the Chu royal family, the former leaders of the Ming Dynasty, supported this group. This is the first time in the development of Shaolin fighting systems that time and space themselves became the focal point of design consideration. They provided the "idea" in the first level of Siu Nim Tao (Little Beginning Idea) training. The military implications of this decision are far too extensive for review here. Suffice it to say the physical science expertise of the monks, resulting from their relentless ...








Revolutionaries and Secret Societies


Wing Chun Flourishes

The second phase of Wing Chun development, Modification and Public Awareness, arose and flourished over the next 100 years. During this era, Wing Chun went through its third period of major change in form, footwork, and structure. Environmental and cultural factors such as exposure to life on boats in the southern coastal regions of China for over 100 years may have heavily influenced stances and training methodologies. The art began a transition from military employment to civilian use and support.

As a result of this transition, Wing Chun outside the Hung Fa Yi tradition began to discard its scientific orientation and revert back to a focus based on individual expressions and personal experience. Likewise, students were no longer required to endure hours of initiation ceremonies and blood oaths to fight to the death for a specific cause. Nevertheless, Wing Chun's fighting effectiveness continued, as repeatedly demonstrated in challenge matches with other styles and individual opponents. The majority of today's most popular lineages stem from roots in this era. Two of those lineages stem from one man alone for each: Yip Man and Gu Lao (g? l?uh). Both originated from Dr. Leung Jan (l?uhng jaan), who learned his Wing Chun directly from Red Opera members. Others lineages include Pao Fa Lien (p?auh f? l?hn), Yuen Kay San (y?n k?ih-s?an), Pan Nam (p?ahng n?ahm), Nanyang (n?ahm y?uhng), Cho family (ch?uh ga), and numerous subsystems practiced throughout Southeast Asia. Once again, thanks, Hendrik for this post: :)

[PalmStriker]

Hendrik,

Thanks for the info..

For others looking for this type of info you need to investigate Chinese Freemasonry historic info. and can see how this relates to the establishment of the Five Grand Lodges of Hung Mun.

Another question? Leung Lon Kwai would have been the person to teach the others WCK. Does anyone know around what year he started teaching the pre 1855 group? Also, I would imagine the Law family must come from the post 1855 era as they are practicing 3 fist sets?

Wong Wah Bo may not have been involved but would have been there training with them during that time period as he had knowledge of both the single long set and 3 sets. Perhaps after the revolution started he decided to go back to Gulao and this is why he could teach others like Fok Bo Chuen. Also, Leung Jan was not involved but similar to his Leung ancestors/family he was no dout a high hand of his region for several decades.


Hope all is well!


Peace,

Jim






From the history from the hung mun 1850,

Leung LAN Kwai himself is a Hung Mun Leader who is tightly related to the red boat opera and fine jade hall. He was pseudoname as NG Mui among other four other hung mun leaders in that era. These five people was pseudoname as the five elderly of shaolin in 1855. And as we can confirm today, in deed the burning of fine jade hall is pseudoname as the burning of shaolin in 1855 by the hung mun, since the hung mun record note has surfaced to public.

Lee man mau, yik kam, Leung LAN Kwai . law ancestor of snake crne wck are belongs to the same group of anti Qing people.

We can verify these people via the official Chinese history and hung mun records today.
We know WWB doesn't involve deep as these above guys in the uprising, thus . Leung jan can teach in public, right after the taiping uprising were destroy by Qing.

Same with the founder of Choy lee fut, chan heng, who train the taiping army, has to run away from china , wcners who involved in the uprising have to go hiding. But Leung Jan stay in the area and start teaching.
Thanks for this info. also. Jim. Excellent research. :) Wanted to get these stuffs all on one page to "bookmark" . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLzQoKoTBBs

[Paddington]

Hi Hendrik.

I've enjoyed watching your videos and reading your posts and taking in the information you offer up. Personally, I think experiencing what you proffer does not exclude or work against a more through biomechanical and anatomical discussion, of the movements and body alignments you are talking about. Nor do I think a focus on body structure, anatomy and biomechanics, negates nor lessons the perspective on the human body from a tcm point of view. A discussion of the two perspectives is complimentary not contradictory.

I had thought the document Jox produced and you contributed to, took a small step towards the type of discussions that I and others would like to see you start.

If you take a look at that book I mention you would see what I mean by an 'anatomical and biomechanical' discussion. Rather than the onus being on others to extend your line of thinking towards a discussion of this type, I feel that the onus is on you to do this as it is your want to propagate these ideas, to a 'western' audience.

It maybe the case that you don't have knowledge in the fields I talk about i.e. sports science. If so I think you would be far more successful in your aims if you spent a year studying such a field.

[tc101]

But at the end of the day can one make even ones snt work to develop Wck basic as Wck suppose to ?



This is the crux of it there is no supposed to. Let me repeat it there is no supposed to.

You see wing chun because of your lineage as being what the so called original wing chun was and that is your definition of wing chun. I'm sure you will find some who share this view. I think that view is fundamentally wrong.

Even if there was one originator of wing chun as you assume and they had a certain fixed way of doing a certain thing as you assume we are not bound to that. A martial art cannot be viable and be like that. It needs to adapt change grow discard and not stay fixed or dogmatic. Wing chun is what was created but it is also all those variations we see today. A martial art even when created is created not to be fixed in time, fixed in mechanics, fixed in method, and so forth but has to be created to allow for and even look forward to constant change. That my friend is the reality of martial arts.

Henry Ford created the Model T but he never intended that to define the automobile. It was a starting point for growth. some of that growth advances us and some like the Edsel fails. His Model T and my Ford Edge are both Ford automobiles.

[KPM]

I think having distinguishing features is NOT the same as defining something. I do not think defining is even appropriate for a martial art. You can for example recognize a place by its distinguishing features like the Empire State Building in NYC. That is not the same thing as trying to define NYC which does not make sense.

I think you are getting too hung up on semantics. Try this. Everyplace that Hendrik says "define" or "definition", replace it in your mind with "distinguish" or "distinguishing features." Because that is what he is referring too, whatever word he chooses to use and however you understand the word "definition."

What Hendrik is trying to do with his DNA device is say this or that is or is not proper wing chun since it either meets or does not meet his definition. His DNA is his definition of wing chun.

No. I pointed this out before. Again, you seem to be very hung up on jumping on Hendrik for things he is not doing. Hendrik is NOT trying to define ALL Wing Chun. And Hendrik recently did a good job of explaining what he meant by "DNA" from a TCMA perspective. Hendrik is trying to track down the distinguishing features that identify a particular lineage as coming from the red boat era. He is looking for the "core" element that has been preserved through multiple lineages. This core element could be seen as important to making Wing Chun work as it was designed to work. So if a particular Wing Chun player is missing this core element, pointing it out to him and showing him how to recover it could very well reinvigorate his Wing Chun. But maybe that person is perfectly happy with his Wing Chun the way it is and can make it work for him. That's fine. Its not like Hendrik is going to force anyone to make changes!


According to legend she was THE originator of the art. She came from Shaolin. As a Shaolin nun is it not presumed and this is legend of course that she was trained in Shaolin arts? If the legend was a Shaolin monk would you say that too does not mean his art is Shaolin?

Again, I pointed this out before. The legends say Ng Mui was doing an art of her own creation. It may have had roots in the Shaolin methods, but it was not referred to as a "Shaolin Martial Art." Ng Mui left the temple after it was burned and later combined something else with her system to create Wing Chun. The legends typically say that she was inspired by watching a snake and a crane fight. Legends often use metaphor. Since Ng Mui's personal art was described as a Crane style, a logical conclusion is that this is a metaphor referring to the combination of her Crane system with a Snake system. Since the place that Ng Mui is said to have moved to after the burning of the Shaolin temple was known for its Snake method kung fu, this makes some sense.

Again, this is like arguing semantics. 90% of martial arts in China claim some kind of root in the Shaolin Temple. Wing Chun may very well have a Shaolin root. But then the legends state that the original Shaolin martial arts had their root in martial arts from India. So should we be arguing that Wing Chun (and many other CMA's) are "Indian Martial Arts"?

So I will say what I said before. Compare what Hendrik is saying about history to the history provided by the HFY lineage. HFY is describing a full blown "Shaolin Martial Art", not a martial art whose founder happened to have some background in the Shaolin temple. There IS a difference, whether you are willing to admit it or not.

[tc101]

KPM look at my last post to Hedrik's supposed to and try to tell me how definition and distinguishing feature are the same.

If all Hendrik wanted to do was find distinguishing features of red boat wing chun there would not be a supposed to.

[KPM]

Ok. I'm not Hendrik, but I'm willing to still try to stick with you with some reasonable discussion. But you are going to have to met me half way and not keep repeating the same things that I have already addressed or I am going to give it up.

You see wing chun because of your lineage as being what the so called original wing chun was and that is your definition of wing chun. I'm sure you will find some who share this view. I think that view is fundamentally wrong.

Again, Hendrik is not trying to "define" Wing Chun for everyone. He is trying to outline the core elements of Wing Chun with a solid red boat lineage. Things change and morph over time and not always for the better. I think getting a good idea of what the originators of Wing Chun did is a good idea. After all, they actually used it in real fighting, which very few of us have done.

Even if there was one originator of wing chun as you assume and they had a certain fixed way of doing a certain thing as you assume we are not bound to that. A martial art cannot be viable and be like that. It needs to adapt change grow discard and not stay fixed or dogmatic.

This is true to an extent. But change for change's sake alone is not necessarily a good thing. Many changes that creep in over the years are simply a given Sifu's personal preferences or unrecognized mistakes. Not all changes have been "pressure tested." Wing Chun hasn't been used as a true "combat martial art" for many generations.


Wing chun is what was created but it is also all those variations we see today. A martial art even when created is created not to be fixed in time, fixed in mechanics, fixed in method, and so forth but has to be created to allow for and even look forward to constant change. That my friend is the reality of martial arts.

Again, only true to a certain extent. If someone decided that they preferred the low horse stance from Karate over the YGKYM, added some high kicks, and discarded Chi Sao as a training method, would we still consider this to be "Wing Chun"? How much you can alter the "distinguishing features" and still call it Wing Chun might be open to debate. But obviously there must be a limit. So change is acceptable within some parameters. I would say that there is a core biomechanic involved. Change that and it is no longer Wing Chun.

Henry Ford created the Model T but he never intended that to define the automobile. It was a starting point for growth. some of that growth advances us and some like the Edsel fails. His Model T and my Ford Edge are both Ford automobiles.

An automobile has certain distinguishing features. How many can you alter before it is no longer considered an "automobile"? When we have transportation with anti-gravity capabilities, no wheels, and an engine driven by hydrogen fusion, will we call that an "automobile" or something else?

[KPM]

KPM look at my last post to Hedrik's supposed to and try to tell me how definition and distinguishing feature are the same.

If all Hendrik wanted to do was find distinguishing features of red boat wing chun there would not be a supposed to.

He is talking about the core biomechanic that can be developed and expressed in the SLT form. This is why we do our YGKYM with a relatively narrow foot placement, toes pointed a bit inward, and the pelvis tucked under. But it is not a static position. Robert Chu pointed out years ago that many people in Wing Chun have such poor YGKYM mechanics that they can be easily pushed over backwards. He came up with his "structure tests" so people could gain some insight and make corrections if needed. So yes, there IS a "supposed to." The ability to root and adjust and distribute force in the YGKYM is a distinguishing feature of red boat lineage Wing Chun. It is a "supposed to." Call it what you want. I'm not sure why you are still hammering on the symantics.

But beyond that, Hendrik is getting to the core element of how to express power within the SLT. He feels that this portion is what has been lost by neglect from many of the existing red boat descendants. It is also a "supposed to", because it was part of the original design. Can people make their Wing Chun work without the ability to root and redistribute force? I'm sure they can! Is it optimal? Probably not. Can people make their Wing Chun work without the ability to express "short power" from their structure? I'm sure they can! Is it optimal? Probably not. Do you want "Ok" Wing Chun or optimal Wing Chun? That's what Hendrik is driving towards. Of course, if you aren't doing red boat lineage Wing Chun, this may not apply and your mileage may vary. ;)

[GlennR]

He is talking about the core biomechanic that can be developed and expressed in the SLT form. This is why we do our YGKYM with a relatively narrow foot placement, toes pointed a bit inward, and the pelvis tucked under. But it is not a static position. Robert Chu pointed out years ago that many people in Wing Chun have such poor YGKYM mechanics that they can be easily pushed over backwards. He came up with his "structure tests" so people could gain some insight and make corrections if needed. So yes, there IS a "supposed to." The ability to root and adjust and distribute force in the YGKYM is a distinguishing feature of red boat lineage Wing Chun. It is a "supposed to." Call it what you want. I'm not sure why you are still hammering on the symantics.

But beyond that, Hendrik is getting to the core element of how to express power within the SLT. He feels that this portion is what has been lost by neglect from many of the existing red boat descendants. It is also a "supposed to", because it was part of the original design. Can people make their Wing Chun work without the ability to root and redistribute force? I'm sure they can! Is it optimal? Probably not. Can people make their Wing Chun work without the ability to express "short power" from their structure? I'm sure they can! Is it optimal? Probably not. Do you want "Ok" Wing Chun or optimal Wing Chun? That's what Hendrik is driving towards. Of course, if you aren't doing red boat lineage Wing Chun, this may not apply and your mileage may vary. ;)

But the big question is..... What evidence can Hendricks offer to show that his 1850 method is indeed better, or optimal as you put it..

I for one, am all ears and eyes if I can see something with an increased performance.
Otherwise, it's just martial masturbation IMO

[guy b.]

He is talking about the core biomechanic that can be developed and expressed in the SLT form. This is why we do our YGKYM with a relatively narrow foot placement, toes pointed a bit inward, and the pelvis tucked under. But it is not a static position. Robert Chu pointed out years ago that many people in Wing Chun have such poor YGKYM mechanics that they can be easily pushed over backwards. He came up with his "structure tests" so people could gain some insight and make corrections if needed. So yes, there IS a "supposed to." The ability to root and adjust and distribute force in the YGKYM is a distinguishing feature of red boat lineage Wing Chun. It is a "supposed to." Call it what you want. I'm not sure why you are still hammering on the symantics.

But beyond that, Hendrik is getting to the core element of how to express power within the SLT. He feels that this portion is what has been lost by neglect from many of the existing red boat descendants. It is also a "supposed to", because it was part of the original design. Can people make their Wing Chun work without the ability to root and redistribute force? I'm sure they can! Is it optimal? Probably not. Can people make their Wing Chun work without the ability to express "short power" from their structure? I'm sure they can! Is it optimal? Probably not. Do you want "Ok" Wing Chun or optimal Wing Chun? That's what Hendrik is driving towards. Of course, if you aren't doing red boat lineage Wing Chun, this may not apply and your mileage may vary. ;)

I understand what Hendrik is trying to do, but the way of doing it is so incredibly off-putting and slow.

It should be a single page topic, open and close. Here are the mechanics: try them. Here is the chi gung bull****: try it. If people did this and saw benefit then Hendrik would immediately gain the kind of kudos and respect he so obviously desires. Instead it is thread after thread containing no actual substance. People just get tired of it.

[tc101]

He is talking about the core biomechanic that can be developed and expressed in the SLT form. This is why we do our YGKYM with a relatively narrow foot placement, toes pointed a bit inward, and the pelvis tucked under. But it is not a static position. Robert Chu pointed out years ago that many people in Wing Chun have such poor YGKYM mechanics that they can be easily pushed over backwards. He came up with his "structure tests" so people could gain some insight and make corrections if needed. So yes, there IS a "supposed to." The ability to root and adjust and distribute force in the YGKYM is a distinguishing feature of red boat lineage Wing Chun. It is a "supposed to." Call it what you want. I'm not sure why you are still hammering on the symantics.


I am not hammering on semantics I am trying to express to you that the definition view is not the same at all with the distinguishing feature view that the two are completely different.

I know he is talking about mechanics. The mechanics are not a supposed to. You don't do it because you are supposed to, you do it because it works for you and that is something completely different. I may not do it like I am supposed to by your supposed to definition or someone else's definition but I do it in my way because it works for me. The yee jee kim yeung ma is the starting point for your personal exploration or your personal inquiry through training of how to make things work for you not a fixed way of doing something. There is no supposed to.

In boxing or bjj you will never hear a instructor say do this or that because you are supposed to or that is how it is supposed to be done. Supposed to is dogma, you do it this way because you are told to.



But beyond that, Hendrik is getting to the core element of how to express power within the SLT. He feels that this portion is what has been lost by neglect from many of the existing red boat descendants. It is also a "supposed to", because it was part of the original design. Can people make their Wing Chun work without the ability to root and redistribute force? I'm sure they can! Is it optimal? Probably not. Can people make their Wing Chun work without the ability to express "short power" from their structure? I'm sure they can! Is it optimal? Probably not. Do you want "Ok" Wing Chun or optimal Wing Chun? That's what Hendrik is driving towards. Of course, if you aren't doing red boat lineage Wing Chun, this may not apply and your mileage may vary. ;)

The original design is not a supposed to either. That is my point. It is not a dogma. Hendrik sees the original design as the end point I see it as the starting point.

How can you or Hendrik say the original way if what Hendrik has is the original way is the better way? If what he does is better, let's see him do it better. To say an original way is better is pure speculation. Maybe these things Hendrik things are so important were not lost through neglect maybe they were lost through advancement and were never optimal. This is one of his many many many assumptions.

[Hendrik]

Called it DNA called it kuen choong 拳種 is such a simple and clearly define thing.
Similar to the iOS of apple iPad. It is well define but not fix.

For those who is interested, here I give you two examples to cover both big picture and details Hope that these clear things up for you.

Also, called it DNA called it kuen choong call it anything you like. Those are just label. The technology is what it is important IMHO.




1. Wck Momentum DNA ---- using center guarding center.

The First order Wck unique momentum handling concept in combat is "using center guard center" 用中守中。meaning, capture the center line direct, and naturally to let the hindrance or blockage (if surface ) shape the continuous next capture of the center line .

analogy to a water flow , flow directly from high land to lower land. If block in the middle of flow , it switch direction but still head on to the lower land ( center line.)

Wck had three core momentum type to implement or realized this "using center guard center" concept. And they are. " direct, roundabout , and recover."

As the water flow direct to lower land, roundabout and continuous to flow if block instead of fighting the blockage, recover to flow toward the lower land if distracted.

Wck one long set of pre 1855 and three sets of post 1855 are tool for instruct , condition, and develop the skill to implement these above.


In Chinese martial art of past hundreds of years , this DNA is unique to Wck. It is not shaolin, not taiji,, not even the white crane from fujian the mother art of Wck, which Wck inherit the center capture concept , not emei 12 zhuang which Wck inherit the sensing adaptive and seal off technology. But a fusion of white crane center capture concept with emei 12 zhuang sensing, adaptation, and seal off technology.

Thus, Wck technics are directed to the center momentum, not chasing hands, not fighting hands. It just attack the center line and let the outcome shape the next move of continuous attacking the center momentum or center line.


One example of implementation from unlimited example is :
one strike the center line with a sun punch and let the outcome be take out the opponent center. Or if block in one way , adaptively automatically switch into a tan or bong with proper angle and continuous to proceed to the center line.


2. Wck Physical body handling DNA. - snake body crane limbs

The goal of development of the Wck physical body handling is to support the unique Wck momentum.

There are many physical body handing technology in Wck which is express in the Wck sets.

The following are the basic core


1. the snake slide worm move technology or DNA is use in the snake reel section ( the section before the so called one tan three fook section) of snt to open and exercise the whole body joints or bow.

This snake reel section or sup jee sau section is recorded in 1855 snt kuen kuit from snake crane Wck lineage as " the spine of the flying snake spiral in nine ways to indicate the handling of the palm"

2. After open and activate the joints or bows with the above section, in the one tan three fook or so called sam bai fut section or crane withstand section, The handling of the force flow path and force flow via the handling of the seven bows and the action reaction force direct toward the center line is developed.

This one tan three fool section, is recorded in 1855 snt kuen kuit as " the best of crane ( center line capture) and snake ( alignment of joints to handle force flow) melting away the stagnated force ."


This two section of snt is arrange such that one open and activate the joints before passing force and playing with force flow. Thus, you see Wck lineages are following these sequence without changing them.


Thus, from these brief example above, evidence shows, the unique Wck way in momentum, body, and force flow handling. It involve unique Wck concept and special technology . For Wck realization , from momentum to a single movement within the snt practice. Had its meaning and relationship. Such as how every gear in the car transmission has it mission.



The above two example is the red boat era Wck DNA which is common denominator of Wck of that era.

Fluent in the above means one has the Wck "using center guarding center and support by the snake body crane limbs. " DNA.

These above are the DNA but not fix. Because there are unlimited way to implement " using center guarding center" or " the best of crane ( center line capture) and snake ( alignment of joints to handle force flow) melting away the stagnated force ." As one can see from different lineages snt set. They have the DNA every lineages doesn't follow a fix move. In fact different lineages has some different way to express the DNA.


But if one not following the Wck DNA then what do one develop? Is it wck? Or how far it divert from Wck of red boat era ? Wck snt ?



So, here I briefly bring up two DNA within the six core elements of red boat era Wck snt.
The other four are the physiology state or mind state, breathing, Qi flow, and force flow DNA.
As I have brought up the coherence state , that is a part of the mind state DNA of the Wck snt.

We know these six core elements and its DNA. And that also clear up the mother art or technology where the snake reel section or the body of the art is snake body developed using the emei snake technology, snake slide worm move technics., instead of the NG Mui white crane of fujian shaking bounce technics .

Today, We do know red boat era Wck from concept idea to implementation details. It is a specific technology developing a specific combat skill.

It is not Dao or om or zen emptiness which are philosophical believe or thoughts. Every of the six core elements has its use an significant in the technology.

It is a technology consist of concept of using center guarding center, based on the platform of snake body crane limbs, implement or realize with the building basic building blocks such as sun punch, tan , fook, bong , and kei. Five basic which cover forward ,the lateral and horizontal directions as constantly drill in wck chi sau.

[Hendrik]

Thanks,
Excellent !

I encourage you to express what you gain and benefit in your own language. Write an article if you like. I support you via Skype if you need. So, pm me if you like to Skype me for my opinion.
That sure will better then me who is not a mother tounge.

Also, I am a visual person not a verbal type. So, I have my limit in communication. Which need others to help.


Hi Hendrik.

I've enjoyed watching your videos and reading your posts and taking in the information you offer up. Personally, I think experiencing what you proffer does not exclude or work against a more through biomechanical and anatomical discussion, of the movements and body alignments you are talking about. Nor do I think a focus on body structure, anatomy and biomechanics, negates nor lessons the perspective on the human body from a tcm point of view. A discussion of the two perspectives is complimentary not contradictory.

I had thought the document Jox produced and you contributed to, took a small step towards the type of discussions that I and others would like to see you start.

If you take a look at that book I mention you would see what I mean by an 'anatomical and biomechanical' discussion. Rather than the onus being on others to extend your line of thinking towards a discussion of this type, I feel that the onus is on you to do this as it is your want to propagate these ideas, to a 'western' audience.

It maybe the case that you don't have knowledge in the fields I talk about i.e. sports science. If so I think you would be far more successful in your aims if you spent a year studying such a field.

[Hendrik]

A martial art even when created is created not to be fixed in time, fixed in mechanics, fixed in method, and so forth but has to be created to allow for and even look forward to constant change. That my friend is the reality of martial arts. - tc101


The above saying is like Ommmmmm and Dao cover everything. But nothing.




By evidence from your previous posts.

You are like the professor in the movie " back to college by Rodney danger field " living n your ideas and theory.

The professor keep talking how to producing widgets to make money.
But cannot answer what is the product to be specific. Not to mention as Rodnie poin it out has the professor live in the real world .


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM

I give you many chances for you to express yourself in details of Wck snt in this thread ,
but the conclusion obviously are you don't know the art to go that far. Without knowing the art of Wck snt, how can you know Wck snt?

Not to mention, your argument based on right or wrong, fix....ect. While I only mention is it or not is it. Those are different concept. Which evidentially you don't comprehend.







This is the crux of it there is no supposed to. Let me repeat it there is no supposed to.

You see wing chun because of your lineage as being what the so called original wing chun was and that is your definition of wing chun. I'm sure you will find some who share this view. I think that view is fundamentally wrong.

Even if there was one originator of wing chun as you assume and they had a certain fixed way of doing a certain thing as you assume we are not bound to that. A martial art cannot be viable and be like that. It needs to adapt change grow discard and not stay fixed or dogmatic. Wing chun is what was created but it is also all those variations we see today. A martial art even when created is created not to be fixed in time, fixed in mechanics, fixed in method, and so forth but has to be created to allow for and even look forward to constant change. That my friend is the reality of martial arts.

Henry Ford created the Model T but he never intended that to define the automobile. It was a starting point for growth. some of that growth advances us and some like the Edsel fails. His Model T and my Ford Edge are both Ford automobiles.

[Hendrik]

So, with these basic DNA describe here

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1237116&postcount=217



One can use the two basic DNA describe above to investigate the following snt from different lineages. And see for yourself do these snt follow the dna ,how things similar or different or varies.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1235952&postcount=81



Check if the following vim flag system Wck fit the red boat era wck DNA

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Ry8oSOcQ174&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DRy8oSOcQ174

http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=relmfu&v=D9xLAgIljCc

[JPinAZ]

But at the end of the day can one make even ones snt work to develop Wck basic as Wck suppose to ?


This is a stupid question. It took you 30 years research to come up with something you should have learned in the first year? hahaha! sorry, but no one needs your help to understand how to make snt work if they have a good sifu.

[JPinAZ]

As far as the Leung Bik story, William Cheung most certainly had reason to put this forward as true. He broke from Yip Man and all of his Wing Chun brothers and started doing something very different. He justified this with the Leung Bik story, saying he was doing Leung Bik's "real" and "traditional" Wing Chun, while everyone else (including Wong Shun Leung, etc.) were doing a watered down "modified" version of Wing Chun from Chan Wah Shun that wasn't as good. Sound familiar? "My Wing Chun is better than your Wing Chun, lalalalala!"

But William Cheung and what he believes is entirely irrelevant to the present discussion, so I digress. ;)

No offense intended, but you should probably recheck your facts. From everything I've researched, GM Cheung didn't 'break away' from Ip Man, quite the opposite. He credits Ip Man 100% with teaching him TWC as he learned it from Leung Bik. From everything I've read, it was GM WC's brothers that distanced themselves from him after he revealed the TWC he claims came directly from Ip Man.

I never heard 'watered down' or 'not as good' in any of the stories coming from William Cheung, but I did read the terms modified and traditional being used as you say. The negative terms came from others as reactionary to the 'modified' term he used. And who's to say modified means 'watered down'? While I don't necessarily agree, many people on this forum promote the idea that one's WCK should always be evolving (modifying) - including the WSL guys you mentioned - I'm sure they don't consider this 'watering down' their art ;)

All one has to do is look at all the various Ip Man sub-lineages we see today today that have so many conflicting and different views on anything from forms, to drills, concepts, chi sau, applications, 50/50 weight vs 0/100 weight stances, etc. We see it all the time even on just these forums, sometimes even from within each individual sub-lineage. One would have to be blind to not see WCK has been 'modified' heavily since even a short time after Ip Man. I feel it is more than a suitable term.

[Hendrik]

What if 30 years later you find out you are not practicing Wck , but something else claim to be wck, but not wck even you think it is Wck all the time?

Is that sad or stupid for the 30 years you argue and thinking you know it all?

Can that happen in the real life?

Sure. It is happening everyday . Both in east and west.
I would pray for many people that they are not one of these people. Otherwise, they will have a big broken heart.





This is a stupid question.

It took you 30 years research to come up with something you should have learned in the first year?

hahaha! sorry, but no one needs your help to understand how to make snt work if they have a good sifu.

[YouKnowWho]

What if 30 years later you find out you are not practicing Wck , but something else claim to be wck, but not wck even you think it is Wck all the time?
The best product is

- not a product that has 0 defect.
- a product that has the least amount of defects but affordable.

If you

- can make your stuff work, whether your WC is pure or not, it shouldn't bother you a bit.
- can't make my stuff work, even your WC is 100% pure, it still won't do you any good.

[Hendrik]

So has asked me on the force flow or jin element DNA on the one tan three for or some bai fut section.


So, here it is in brief


Using


a, the snake crane Wck kuit.

It describes

" the spine of the flying snake spiral in nine ways to indicate the handling of the palm"

"the best of crane ( center line capture) and snake ( alignment of joints to handle force flow) melting away the stagnated force ."



B, And the following attached two diagrams from yik kam lineage to show the force flow and force path circuit diagram. Which supporting the above two lines of description.



Details handling of seven bows , force flow, and force path

[Hendrik]

Diagram 2. Force focus and force circuit

[KPM]

But the big question is..... What evidence can Hendricks offer to show that his 1850 method is indeed better, or optimal as you put it..

I for one, am all ears and eyes if I can see something with an increased performance.
Otherwise, it's just martial masturbation IMO

This is very true! Hendrik would likely say that one has to actually "feel it" first hand to know the difference. But since that would be hard to accomplish for the majority of us, it would be nice to see a youtube demo of the results of applying this "technology" he has been talking about.

[KPM]

I understand what Hendrik is trying to do, but the way of doing it is so incredibly off-putting and slow.

It should be a single page topic, open and close. Here are the mechanics: try them. Here is the chi gung bull****: try it. If people did this and saw benefit then Hendrik would immediately gain the kind of kudos and respect he so obviously desires. Instead it is thread after thread containing no actual substance. People just get tired of it.

I can't disagree with that! ;)

[KPM]

The mechanics are not a supposed to. You don't do it because you are supposed to, you do it because it works for you and that is something completely different.

You keep the elbow down and the alignment along the centerline for a Wing Chun straight punch because you are "supposed to." Do you do it differently? A jab will work, but that's not a Wing Chun straight punch. If you want to do a Wing Chun straight punch, you do it the way you are "supposed to." The "supposed to's" are some of the "distinguishing features" of Wing Chun. Do you do the SLT in the same sequence that your Sifu taught you? You could do it in any order and it would work. But you are "supposed to" do it in the sequence that has been taught.

I may not do it like I am supposed to by your supposed to definition or someone else's definition but I do it in my way because it works for me. The yee jee kim yeung ma is the starting point for your personal exploration or your personal inquiry through training of how to make things work for you not a fixed way of doing something. There is no supposed to.

Do you keep your knees angled inward, your feet slightly pigeon-toed, your pelvis tucked slightly under, and your weight sunk? Those are all "supposed to's." Do you do it differently? It is Ok to stand in a horse stance and call it YGKYM because it "works for you"?


In boxing or bjj you will never hear a instructor say do this or that because you are supposed to or that is how it is supposed to be done. Supposed to is dogma, you do it this way because you are told to.

You're kidding right? :confused: So you are saying that a BJJ instructor would never tell a student to do an armbar at a given angle that puts the most pressure on the joint rather than one that doesn't? He wouldn't say "your supposed to do it this way for the best effect and to keep the opponent from escaping"?!!!! So a BJJ instructor would never tell a student doing a rear naked choke to get his forearm under the opponent's chin rather than across his mouth because that's how its "supposed to" work? A boxing instructor would never tell a student to snap his jab out sharper and faster so it is more deceptive and harder to avoid, because that is how a good jab is "supposed to" work?



How can you or Hendrik say the original way if what Hendrik has is the original way is the better way? If what he does is better, let's see him do it better. To say an original way is better is pure speculation. Maybe these things Hendrik things are so important were not lost through neglect maybe they were lost through advancement and were never optimal.

You may very well be right! But I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt until I see differently. After all, our ancestors actually fought battles and back-street brawls with Wing Chun for survival. When was the last time that happened on a regular basis?

[PalmStriker]

:) Mmmmm... yum. Spicy cooking for good digestion and Emei SLT Snake Engine. https://www.google.com/search?q=chinese+cooking,+sichuan&client=firefox-a&hs=3R5&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=pmTPUcWkLuHOyQHdzYCoDg&ved=0CF4QsAQ&biw=1440&bih=807

[KPM]

No offense intended, but you should probably recheck your facts. From everything I've researched, GM Cheung didn't 'break away' from Ip Man, quite the opposite. He credits Ip Man 100% with teaching him TWC as he learned it from Leung Bik. From everything I've read, it was GM WC's brothers that distanced themselves from him after he revealed the TWC he claims came directly from Ip Man.

Ah, no offense intended either, but you don't know what your talking about. He may not have been on bad terms with Yip Man, but he certainly broke from his Hong Kong teachings and went to Australia to do his own thing.

I never heard 'watered down' or 'not as good' in any of the stories coming from William Cheung, but I did read the terms modified and traditional being used as you say. The negative terms came from others as reactionary to the 'modified' term he used. And who's to say modified means 'watered down'?

I have the original article that Cheung wrote for the magazines. He may not have overtly used the term "watered down", but it is very clear that is what he intended. That article was very inflammatory and had pictures showing how supposedly "modified" Wing Chun was doing things wrong while "traditional" Wing Chun did them right. If his Wing Chun brothers where the ones that distanced themselves from Cheung, it was because he essentially slapped them all in the face. The way he spun the story was that Chan Wah Shun learned his Wing Chun by peaking through the fence while Leung Jan was training his sons. But Leung Jan caught on and when he knew Chan Wah Shun was around he purposefully changed what he was teaching so Chan Wah Shun wouldn't get the "good stuff." Chan Wah Shun was a big guy and Leung Jan's sons were not. So when he finally agreed to teach Chan Wah Shun directly, he continued to show him this altered version so he wouldn't be able to defeat Leung Jan's sons. This doesn't sound "watered down" to you?



One would have to be blind to not see WCK has been 'modified' heavily since even a short time after Ip Man. I feel it is more than a suitable term.

Back then William Cheung used the term "modified" in a negative sense. What he published definitely showed "modified" as being inferior to "traditional" and as being somehow "defective." That's why Cheung was such a pariah for many years after he went to Australia.

[Hendrik]

So,

With the above DNA in the momentum, body handling, and force change handling or Jin handling, that define the basic art of Wck snt. That is the core of the red boat era Wck.

It is predictable and could be seen in the past 160 years evolution that if these basic DNA are missed. The snt will default evolve into the southern shaolin type of art such as this.


http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=LPwU1A0N5GM&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DLPwU1A0N5GM


One can notice this art using yjkym too. But it is a different type of art by DNA.

Primarily, snt has a different type of force change handling DNA. When one not be able to activate that, one usually turn to the stance , the rooting, the posture, and the dynamic tension. Unaware of the snt is using the bows power with a flexible coherence body mind.


Also, since snt is about force flow play, it is not a kiu sau art as other shaolin art. If you check out the description of Wck in the Chinese tma history reord. It will decibe Wck as narrow stance, close body sticking, expertise in issue inch power. Not strong posture, not kiu sau. So, what is narrow stance, close body sticking, expertise in issue inch power means?

In today language, it means the way of willow tree, expertise in force change force flow handling without much physical movement.

So, for example, wcner throw a sun punch to attack the opponent center line. And it was block. So, according to Wck momentum DNA. The wcner will continuous on with roundabout, there by automatically switch to bong sau with an angle to continuous the attack .

As for the advance Wck player of the past, instead of changing his sun punch to the bong sau, he called for the bong type of force vector at the instant and point of contact and press in. That is what it means by "close body sticking, expertise in issue inch power"

Now chi sau is suppose to get to that force flow level play. Where per contact point call for the Jin or force vector needed. Instead of playing with different type of kiu sau as other southern tcm art.

Thus, the red boat era Wck do have it uniqueness and DNA define since it is a type of technology to develop a type of combat skill.

And why is the snake body DNA so important? Because in order to play with force flow one needs a sensitive and alive body which can be fine tune and adaptive within inch. And that is where the emei snake slide worm move technology come into the picture. Without this fine scale adaptive able technology , one cannot implement force flow in snt.

So where is Qi core element come to the picture? Qi flow can be looked at as the lube of the force flow play. At advance level with Qi development , one doesn't have to move the body part too much to called for the force vector needed. There by one can minimize movement .A good simple example is, to not press down your thump while doing chi sau to let the lung qi medirian open. See for yourself how light is your whole arm for manuval compare with pressing the thump down which lock the lung Qi medirian. Qi is mostly misunderstood because most really speculate but don't know what it is and its contribution in advance level of body mind handling.

[k gledhill]

Diagram 2. Force focus and force circuit

Hendrik is this your idea of 160 years of evolution ?

[Hendrik]

It is not my idea and it is not evolution.

It is the way how force is handle in Wck snt set of red boat era Wck.

The force operating zone and the transportation .

Many Wck lineages still practice these today in their snt.



Hendrik is this your idea of 160 years of evolution ?

[k gledhill]

It is not my idea and it is not evolution.

It is the way how force is handle in Wck snt set of red boat era Wck.

The force operating zone and the transportation .

Many Wck lineages still practice these today in their snt.

The diagram, just to be certain, is your description ?

[Hendrik]

Didn't I reply you already?


The diagram, just to be certain, is your evolution ?

[k gledhill]

Didn't I reply you already?

You're trying to tell us that its a "triangle" and the power comes from numbered structure.

[Hendrik]

You're trying to tell us that its a "triangle" and the power comes from numbered structure.


Ok. It says

1. The triangle is the characteistic of snt power intensity range . Where the center line area is the most power full. Or high intensity. Ie, keep in the range.

2。the number is the seven joints or bows , which are handling the power, ie generate, transport force flow dynamically in snt. Up and down from the ground. Ie. every part of the body is not deadly lock or fix but dynamically continuous to handling force.

[JPinAZ]

What if 30 years later you find out you are not practicing Wck , but something else claim to be wck, but not wck even you think it is Wck all the time?

I don't know, please, tell us all, how did that feel when you found this out about your animal style wing chun? Must be frustrating..

[PalmStriker]

:) Reference: http://www.w1ng.com/mystery-of-the-snake-and-crane-emei-connection/

[Hendrik]

I have no such a problem , because the Wck I practice accord with all red boat era Wck lineages, item of Chinese official history and ancient Chinese martial art DNA.

You need to ask those who practice such as black flag wing chun if you have a problem such as them



I don't know, please, tell us all, how did that feel when you found this out about your animal style wing chun? Must be frustrating..

[GlennR]

I have no such a problem , because the Wck I practice accord with all red boat era Wck lineages, item of Chinese official history and ancient Chinese martial art DNA.


But heres the thing, who is saying (apart from yourself) that it is official history and DNA as you say?

Apart from a couple of people on this forum, who does???

Im no scientist but isnt there such a thing as peer review...... what people, with varified non-biased credentials back your claims??

And finally, does it work better than the other WC?
Is it better for fighting/self defense?

If so, show us someone that stands out as a skilled exponent of your 1850 art??

I , for one, will take up your method if it appears superior.

[tc101]

What if 30 years later you find out you are not practicing Wck , but something else claim to be wck, but not wck even you think it is Wck all the time?

Is that sad or stupid for the 30 years you argue and thinking you know it all?

Can that happen in the real life?

Sure. It is happening everyday . Both in east and west.
I would pray for many people that they are not one of these people. Otherwise, they will have a big broken heart.

This makes no sense. All you are doing is trying to complicate something that is easy. No one needs to be an expert or authority to just look and see whether something is boxing or Muay Thai or wing chun. They do not need your DNA or some grandmaster or anyone they can tell for themselves.

What if 30 years later you find out you were never practicing boxing but something else that claim to be boxing. Nonsense.

[tc101]

The mechanics are not a supposed to. You don't do it because you are supposed to, you do it because it works for you and that is something completely different.

You keep the elbow down and the alignment along the centerline for a Wing Chun straight punch because you are "supposed to." Do you do it differently? A jab will work, but that's not a Wing Chun straight punch. If you want to do a Wing Chun straight punch, you do it the way you are "supposed to." The "supposed to's" are some of the "distinguishing features" of Wing Chun. Do you do the SLT in the same sequence that your Sifu taught you? You could do it in any order and it would work. But you are "supposed to" do it in the sequence that has been taught.

I may not do it like I am supposed to by your supposed to definition or someone else's definition but I do it in my way because it works for me. The yee jee kim yeung ma is the starting point for your personal exploration or your personal inquiry through training of how to make things work for you not a fixed way of doing something. There is no supposed to.

Do you keep your knees angled inward, your feet slightly pigeon-toed, your pelvis tucked slightly under, and your weight sunk? Those are all "supposed to's." Do you do it differently? It is Ok to stand in a horse stance and call it YGKYM because it "works for you"?


In boxing or bjj you will never hear a instructor say do this or that because you are supposed to or that is how it is supposed to be done. Supposed to is dogma, you do it this way because you are told to.

You're kidding right? :confused: So you are saying that a BJJ instructor would never tell a student to do an armbar at a given angle that puts the most pressure on the joint rather than one that doesn't? He wouldn't say "your supposed to do it this way for the best effect and to keep the opponent from escaping"?!!!! So a BJJ instructor would never tell a student doing a rear naked choke to get his forearm under the opponent's chin rather than across his mouth because that's how its "supposed to" work? A boxing instructor would never tell a student to snap his jab out sharper and faster so it is more deceptive and harder to avoid, because that is how a good jab is "supposed to" work?



How can you or Hendrik say the original way if what Hendrik has is the original way is the better way? If what he does is better, let's see him do it better. To say an original way is better is pure speculation. Maybe these things Hendrik things are so important were not lost through neglect maybe they were lost through advancement and were never optimal.

You may very well be right! But I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt until I see differently. After all, our ancestors actually fought battles and back-street brawls with Wing Chun for survival. When was the last time that happened on a regular basis?

I have boxed for years, practiced bjj for years and my coach and instructors never told me to do something because I was supposed to. In other words you don't do something simply because that is how it is done I have always been taught to do something because it works when you do it that way. The techniques of any art are actions that have proven themselves to work. The justification is not you do it because you are supposed to but the justification is this is how you make things work. Even so they are not written in stone because they will need to be adjusted for the individual and people do find ways to tweak or do things better. That is why boxing today is very different from boxing 150 years ago. My point is we do not do something because we are supposed to but because it works.

When your justification is you do it because you are supposed to do it that way you have lost the focus on function and your art becomes dead, it becomes a dogma.

If someone asks me why I punch with my elbow down and in or do this or that my answer is never because you are supposed to.

[Hendrik]

Work better then other Wck? Superior ?
You totally missed my point. Clear your mind and re read my posts.

DNA discussion makes All red boat era Wck off spring better. And I have never said My way is perfect or superior.


I say, all red boat era Wck share the same DNA. And we can identify and track them to details today.



But heres the thing, who is saying (apart from yourself) that it is official history and DNA as you say?

Apart from a couple of people on this forum, who does???

Im no scientist but isnt there such a thing as peer review...... what people, with varified non-biased credentials back your claims??

And finally, does it work better than the other WC?
Is it better for fighting/self defense?

If so, show us someone that stands out as a skilled exponent of your 1850 art??

I , for one, will take up your method if it appears superior.

[Hendrik]

Again, you totally missed my points.

Are you are wcner?
Or a mma discuss with mma logic?


I have boxed for years, practiced bjj for years and my coach and instructors never told me to do something because I was supposed to. In other words you don't do something simply because that is how it is done I have always been taught to do something because it works when you do it that way. The techniques of any art are actions that have proven themselves to work. The justification is not you do it because you are supposed to but the justification is this is how you make things work. Even so they are not written in stone because they will need to be adjusted for the individual and people do find ways to tweak or do things better. That is why boxing today is very different from boxing 150 years ago. My point is we do not do something because we are supposed to but because it works.

When your justification is you do it because you are supposed to do it that way you have lost the focus on function and your art becomes dead, it becomes a dogma.

If someone asks me why I punch with my elbow down and in or do this or that my answer is never because you are supposed to.

[KPM]

In other words you don't do something simply because that is how it is done I have always been taught to do something because it works when you do it that way.

You're just arguing semantics again! You are "supposed to" do it that way because that's the way it works!!!! The arm has to go under the chin in a rear naked choke. It has nothing to do with your individual characteristics. If its going to work, it HAS to be done that way. You can say "supposed to", you can say "because it works"....it amounts to the same thing!

The techniques of any art are actions that have proven themselves to work. The justification is not you do it because you are supposed to but the justification is this is how you make things work.

Exactly! And your Sifu tells you you are "supposed to" do something in such and such a way because he/she knows that that is how to make it work!

That is why boxing today is very different from boxing 150 years ago.

No. Bad analogy. Boxing today is different from boxing 150 years ago because the rules changed.

My point is we do not do something because we are supposed to but because it works.

And my point is that your Sifu/teacher will tell you are are "supposed to" do it because he knows that's how to make it work! Are you going to trust your instructor? You seem to be repeatedly getting way too hung up on the way things are worded. You are holding onto the "letter of the law" rather than seeing the "spirit of the law"...so to speak.

When your justification is you do it because you are supposed to do it that way you have lost the focus on function and your art becomes dead, it becomes a dogma.

No it doesn't. All the student has to say is "ok Sifu, but why am I doing it that way?" If the instructor can't justify why you are doing something a particular way or show you why doing it differently doesn't work as well, then you need to find another instructor because THAT is when things started getting dogmatic.

This makes no sense. All you are doing is trying to complicate something that is easy. No one needs to be an expert or authority to just look and see whether something is boxing or Muay Thai or wing chun. They do not need your DNA or some grandmaster or anyone they can tell for themselves.

But that seems to be where you are missing the point! Maybe its NOT that easy! Maybe there is a deeper level that isn't apparent to Joe Blo who is doing the looking. Did you ever stop to think that the reason you keep missing what we are saying is that you have never seen that deeper level...that level beyond the superficial appearances? But your mind seems to be made up no matter what I say or how I try to explain it. So I think I'm done with this thread.

[anerlich]

What if 30 years later you find out you are not practicing Wck , but something else claim to be wck, but not wck even you think it is Wck all the time?

If it works, why worry? And who, self-appointed WC gurus with their own barrows to push such as yourself, is to judge what is right or wrong, other than by results?


Is that sad or stupid for the 30 years you argue and thinking you know it all?

That describes your behaviour for the last couple of decades, at least, so tell us, how does it feel?


I would pray for many people that they are not one of these people. Otherwise, they will have a big broken heart.

You are a condescending, patronising prat. Take your prayers and shove them up your tan tien the hard way.

[YouKnowWho]

What if 30 years later you find out you are not practicing ...

What if 30 years later you find out that the skill that you have developed can't even handle any 20 years old who knocks on your front door? That will be the worst nightmare for all TCMA lovers - to get knocked out within 10 seconds. I would pray for many people that they are not one of these people.

[GlennR]

Work better then other Wck? Superior ?
You totally missed my point. Clear your mind and re read my posts.

DNA discussion makes All red boat era Wck off spring better. And I have never said My way is perfect or superior.


I say, all red boat era Wck share the same DNA. And we can identify and track them to details today.

Rubbish.
You just said how sad it would be to be doing WC for 30 years and not doing it the 1850 way..... your way

How is that not saying your 1850 way is superior?

So ill ask again, what benefit in regards to fighting/self defense will your 1850 way give me??

Oh, and who in China verifies your research??