Gary Lam interview

[BPWT]

Interesting interview with Gary Lam.

http://wingchungeeks.com/gary-lam-interview/

Some interesting info on WSL, and also on how long it takes to learn the system and why WSL changed the knife form he learned from Yip Man.

Plus, a misunderstanding on back weighting footwork :D:D:D

Lots of points for discussion! LOL

Dig in, and kick off...


Edit: MP3 download, or there's a transcript if you scroll down...

Edit 2: A month or so back, they had a really good interview with Sifu Sergio (just saying).

[tc101]

Thanks. More interesting stuff.

[BPWT]

Any thoughts on why Yip Man taught the knives so slowly?

Any thoughts on the points Gary Lam made about learning the system?

"If you want to have a modern comparison, it would honestly take someone roughly 32 years to truly complete the system of Wing Chun. To us, even if you learn the entire knives form and all the drills, that is still just level three. There is a lot more to Wing Chun afterwards."

[guy b.]

Gary Lam seems to be saying that WSL taught less traditionally than Yip Man who apparently went to ridiculous extremes. He is also claiming that he himself teaches less traditionally and more systematically than WSL. I don't think this is controversial?

The current state of wing chun is a testament to the way Yip Man taught. In general WSL has achieved much more consistent results than his own teacher. Whether Gary Lam goes further still is open for debate.

From this account it sounds like Yip Man took ages over the knives and taught different things to different people because he didn't trust anyone and because this was a typical teaching style of the time. Seems a bit of a silly thing to do in retrospect.

[Graham H]

Gary Lam seems to be saying that WSL taught less traditionally than Yip Man who apparently went to ridiculous extremes. He is also claiming that he himself teaches less traditionally and more systematically than WSL. I don't think this is controversial?

This is strange as GL system does not resemble WSL's one bit. In fact most of it is rubbish IMO. GL and WSL did not see eye to eye and there was a riff that formed if rumors are to be believed. GL has his own ideas and I was told by somebody in Hong Kong that even in WSL's class when GL was an assistant he was teaching things that WSL did not like. Later GL opened his own school down the road.


The current state of wing chun is a testament to the way Yip Man taught. In general WSL has achieved much more consistent results than his own teacher. Whether Gary Lam goes further still is open for debate.

This could be true.


From this account it sounds like Yip Man took ages over the knives and taught different things to different people because he didn't trust anyone and because this was a typical teaching style of the time. Seems a bit of a silly thing to do in retrospect.

Also possibly true and could explain why only several people are known for getting more of his attention than others. Who knows? The argument has been raging since the early 70's.

[tc101]

Gary Lam seems to be saying that WSL taught less traditionally than Yip Man who apparently went to ridiculous extremes. He is also claiming that he himself teaches less traditionally and more systematically than WSL. I don't think this is controversial?


What do you mean by ridiculous extremes?



The current state of wing chun is a testament to the way Yip Man taught.


I do not know what you mean by current state of wing chun. Yip Man is not responsible for wing chun since there are very many that do not come from his lineage and it is not like those people are doing notably better or that other styles of TCMA are doing better than wing chun.



In general WSL has achieved much more consistent results than his own teacher.


This depends on what you mean by results. If you mean conformity in forms and drills and that sort of thing I might agree. Whether that is a good thing is open to debate I think.

[tc101]

This is strange as GL system does not resemble WSL's one bit. In fact most of it is rubbish IMO. GL and WSL did not see eye to eye and there was a riff that formed if rumors are to be believed. GL has his own ideas and I was told by somebody in Hong Kong that even in WSL's class when GL was an assistant he was teaching things that WSL did not like. Later GL opened his own school down the road.


I am beginning to understand you now. Rubbish to you is anything that does not conform to PB ideas. That is a very narrow and self limiting view. GL brought his own experiences into his and I emphasize HIS wing chun and this is how it should be. PB likewise has his own wing chun based on his experience. I understand that GL fought in the infamous wing chun Thai match for example. He was with WSL for a fairly long time wasn't he?

[KPM]

I am beginning to understand you now. Rubbish to you is anything that does not conform to PB ideas. That is a very narrow and self limiting view. GL brought his own experiences into his and I emphasize HIS wing chun and this is how it should be. PB likewise has his own wing chun based on his experience. I understand that GL fought in the infamous wing chun Thai match for example. He was with WSL for a fairly long time wasn't he?

This thread is a perfect example of a point I made in the "is SLT practical" thread. There is no such thing as "authentic", "100% genuine", "Yip Man" Wing Chun. That died with Yip Man. So all of the posts we have seen stating that "so and so" is not real "Yip Man" Wing Chun are rather silly. For someone to say they can look at someone's SLT and know whether it is "true Yip Man Wing Chun" is rather ridiculous. Are they talking about Yip Man in his early years? Or Yip Man in is later years when he is suffering from cancer? Are they talking about what Yip Man showed to his more mature students with an intellectual bent and experience in other martial arts? Or what he showed to his young 17 year old students who wanted to bang? This thread is a perfect of example showing that what Yip Man himself taught throughout different stages of his career or to different types of students was not a consistent standard. WSL put his own interpretation and understanding into what YM taught him. GL and PB both put their own interpretation and understanding into what WSL taught them. Graham has also likely put his own interpretation and understanding into what PB taught him. Now for someone that has established a systematic curriculum and taught it consistently to all of their students, variations are going to be far smaller. So I would think it is possible to look at what WSL's students are doing and note WSL-specific things and know it is his system. But already we have in this discussion a debate as to whether one of WSL's direct students is still doing WSL's Wing Chun or not. With Yip Man's Wing Chun we are now several generations removed. How many variations are going to creep into "100% authentic genuine" Yip Man Wing Chun in 2 generations? Or three? Anyway, just thought I would take this opportunity to reinforce the idea that being so darn dogmatic and religious about who is doing their Wing Chun "right" or "wrong" is somewhat silly. Not targeting anyone in this thread.....just saying. ;)

[Graham H]

I am beginning to understand you now. Rubbish to you is anything that does not conform to PB ideas. That is a very narrow and self limiting view. GL brought his own experiences into his and I emphasize HIS wing chun and this is how it should be. PB likewise has his own wing chun based on his experience. I understand that GL fought in the infamous wing chun Thai match for example. He was with WSL for a fairly long time wasn't he?

Understand me? No you're not! You don't even know me!

FWIW you are wrong. There are many people in VT that I have met other than PB that are good and their ideas make sense. For me though WSLPB ideas are second to none.

GL makes the same mistakes many others make. They think that because you are good at chi sau they can fight. It's people like that who show their true colors when they come against somebody who wont do what they want. This was proved a little while ago where GL was concerned. I have a friend who was with GL for years.

As for PB he's different. No chi sau. He fights you and you know. Simple. No f**king around. Prior to PB all me previous Teachers did was try and tie me up in knots and I fell for it.

BTW VT is not Thai Boxing so what GL did then I don't think about.

[Graham H]

..........and it doesn't make any difference how long GL was with WSL just like it doesn't make no odds how long some people were with Ip Man himself. The relationship between teacher and student and information shared is what is important not time frames.

[tc101]

Understand me? No you're not! You don't even know me!

FWIW you are wrong. There are many people in VT that I have met other than PB that are good and their ideas make sense. For me though WSLPB ideas are second to none.

GL makes the same mistakes many others make. They think that because you are good at chi sau they can fight.


Really? Where was that in the interview?



It's people like that who show their true colors when they come against somebody who wont do what they want. This was proved a little while ago where GL was concerned. I have a friend who was with GL for years.

As for PB he's different. No chi sau. He fights you and you know. Simple. No f**king around. Prior to PB all me previous Teachers did was try and tie me up in knots and I fell for it.


You say no chi sau yet that is all we see from PB on his videos and I have not seen any fighting. I am not saying he doesn't spar only that he does chi sau and apparently a lot of it. I can't speak for your past teachers they may have been lousy as you say but that does not mean everyone is lousy. Many good wing chun people use chi sau as a teaching tool to explain the tools and tactics of wing chun. I think the good ones know that chi sau is not fighting. GL fought the Thais so he certainly would know that chi sau is not what he experienced in the ring.



BTW VT is not Thai Boxing so what GL did then I don't think about.

I brought that up to show that GL has had experiences like fighting thai boxers that forms his views of wing chun and how to teach it. Also by practicing it a bot gives him additional experience that he brings to his wing chun. Just as WSL had had trained boxing and used that experience in his wing chun.

[tc101]

..........and it doesn't make any difference how long GL was with WSL just like it doesn't make no odds how long some people were with Ip Man himself. The relationship between teacher and student and information shared is what is important not time frames.

The time frame shows that someone has spent a lot of time with an instructor and if someone spends a lot of time with them this would show the quality of their relationship and access to the information. Not only that but it allows you to observe things longer and perhaps see changes in things like what an instructor is doing or teaching others that others with shorter time with the instructor may not see.

[Graham H]

]Really? Where was that in the interview?

I didn't say it was in the interview. I didn't watch it. I've better things to do like stare out of the office window.


You say no chi sau yet that is all we see from PB on his videos and I have not seen any fighting.

Oh FFS! Will you get a grip?! What is contained in the videos is only a small part of what our lineage is about. You want more? Go!


I am not saying he doesn't spar only that he does chi sau and apparently a lot of it.

Of course we do chi sau but chi sau is only a mutual cooperative training drill.


I can't speak for your past teachers they may have been lousy as you say but that does not mean everyone is lousy.

Who said lousy? I said not as good!


Many good wing chun people use chi sau as a teaching tool to explain the tools and tactics of wing chun.

So do we but in my experience most use it for the wrong purposes.


I brought that up to show that GL has had experiences like fighting thai boxers that forms his views of wing chun and how to teach it. Also by practicing it a bot gives him additional experience that he brings to his wing chun. Just as WSL had had trained boxing and used that experience in his wing chun.

Yes ok but I don't like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Some of the things he does is stupid never mind anything else like the time he taught a student to block a thai roundhouse kick by putting his hand over your ear! BS!

[Graham H]

The time frame shows that someone has spent a lot of time with an instructor and if someone spends a lot of time with them this would show the quality of their relationship and access to the information. Not only that but it allows you to observe things longer and perhaps see changes in things like what an instructor is doing or teaching others that others with shorter time with the instructor may not see.

That is complete nonsense! You seem to assume that every student/teacher relationship is perfect. What about actual time spent training? What about actual contact? What about if or not the student actually understands what he/she is being taught and how much time they spend perfecting it? Does every VT student go on to become a quality teacher of it? No!

You are quite narrow minded mate which is ironic as you think I am :rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

The time frame shows that someone has spent a lot of time with an instructor and if someone spends a lot of time with them this would show the quality of their relationship and access to the information. Not only that but it allows you to observe things longer and perhaps see changes in things like what an instructor is doing or teaching others that others with shorter time with the instructor may not see.

Ahhhhh NO !! This is no guarantee. As the saying goes, it is not who spends the longest time doing it, but who understands quickest.

[Ali. R]

"If you want to have a modern comparison, it would honestly take someone roughly 32 years to truly complete the system of Wing Chun."

Remember,,, that’s within his system or standers, it took me 29 years to finish the system, three of those years I’ve deducted myself because I’d felt that my ‘SLT’ was worthless in the beginning.

But I was told by my Sifu that those years still counted. Man, that interview sounded like something my teacher would say, and it’s almost like it was him speaking himself.

I did not learn from seminars, but from my sifu personally and while in group sessions, it started with three days a week up to five days. I was blessed to stay just walking distant from his home/kwoon, which was located right behind his restaurant.


Thanks and take care,

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=BPWT;1236035]Interesting interview with Gary Lam.

http://wingchungeeks.com/gary-lam-interview/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the link. Some things are different. But no quibbling is needed.

[Graham H]

Remember,,, that’s within he’s system or standers, it took me 29 years to finish the system, three of those years I’ve deducted myself because I’d felt that my ‘SLT’ was worthless in the beginning.

WTF? 29 years? You deducted 3 years because you thought your SLT was worthless? Man this is exactly what I hate about Wing Chun! :mad:


Man, that interview sounded like something my teacher would say, and it’s almost like it was him speaking himself.

That says a lot. He must of also been a BS*itter.

[Ali. R]

The 29 years that I’ve spent with my ‘Sifu’ was more or less based on a strong family relationship through my mother who was a close friend of his daughter in-law, they went to high school together and I grew up calling him grandfather.

He attended to most of my wrestling matches, boxing matches and he was also there when my first born was delivered. His wife and he took care of my sister and me when my parents went to work, and that went on for over 8 years as a kid.

He had more respect for me because I’d never wanted to test out without a full understanding, maybe I’m slow, but I had the sense to know when something wasn’t right within my development at that time, so most of that was my doing.

I wanted to be the best he’d ever taught and in his own words he said so. And I know that my true skill level will never be seen like others on a clip for many different reasons, and that will never bother me at all.

But I’ve never had the opportunity to develop through seminars or tapes, or from a long visit to another country or state, which was almost a guaranteed that I’ll move to the next level of the system because of attending a function of some sort or from the fact that I was given certain information at that time.

Just because I was handed the information doesn’t really mean that I should be going to the next level without development. But when you travel and pay a lot of money for an event, they will have to make sure that you will show up for the next one or next lesson. Hence the quick fix. When the sifu never said that you were at the next level, so the student or person that went to the seminar becomes a legend in his/her own mind without true development.

I’m not angry at you for insulting my grandfather, because I understand people like yourself, but I’m a little confused on the fact that you do not know him when it was most of my doing (29 years), but will make such a statement, and after this one particularly, and it’s very ironic that it’s on the same thread.


Understand me? No you're not! You don't even know me!

[tc101]

That is complete nonsense! You seem to assume that every student/teacher relationship is perfect. What about actual time spent training? What about actual contact? What about if or not the student actually understands what he/she is being taught and how much time they spend perfecting it? Does every VT student go on to become a quality teacher of it? No!

You are quite narrow minded mate which is ironic as you think I am :rolleyes:

I am saying that the time you spend with a teacher does show something about that relationship and also some other positive things. I did not say that proved anything about anything else. If you did not jump to your own conclusions and instead engaged in dialogue you might have learned that.

[tc101]

Ahhhhh NO !! This is no guarantee. As the saying goes, it is not who spends the longest time doing it, but who understands quickest.

I never said it was a guarantee. I never said the one who spends the longest times understands it better or quicker. You are another who jumps to conclusions and does not take the time to engage in dialogue.

It is quite simple if I spend 20 years with my instructor chances are we do not hate each others guts but get along. Chances are too that I have a decent idea of what he is teaching. I am not saying that skill or understanding depends solely on the time you spend with your instructor because that depends on many many factors but time is one of those.

[Graham H]

The 29 years that I’ve spent with my ‘Sifu’ was more or less based on a strong family relationship through my mother who was a close friend of his daughter in-law, they went to high school together and I grew up calling him grandfather.

He attended to most of my wrestling matches, boxing matches and he was also there when my first born was delivered. His wife and he took care of my sister and me when my parents went to work, and that went on for over 8 years as a kid.

He had more respect for me because I’d never wanted to test out without a full understanding, maybe I’m slow, but I had the sense to know when something wasn’t right within my development at that time, so most of that was my doing.

I wanted to be the best he’d ever taught and in his own words he said so. And I know that my true skill level will never be seen like others on a clip for many different reasons, and that will never bother me at all.

But I’ve never had the opportunity to develop through seminars or tapes, or from a long visit to another country or state, which was almost a guaranteed that I’ll move to the next level of the system because of attending a function of some sort or from the fact that I was given certain information at that time.

Just because I was handed the information doesn’t really mean that I should be going to the next level without development. But when you travel and pay a lot of money for an event, they will have to make sure that you will show up for the next one or next lesson. Hence the quick fix. When the sifu never said that you were at the next level, so the student or person that went to the seminar becomes a legend in his/her own mind without true development.

I’m not angry at you for insulting my grandfather, because I understand people like yourself, but I’m a little confused on the fact that you do not know him when it was most of my doing (29 years), but will make such a statement, and after this one particularly, and it’s very ironic that it’s on the same thread.

Life story?

No thanks!:rolleyes:

[Graham H]

I am saying that the time you spend with a teacher does show something about that relationship and also some other positive things. I did not say that proved anything about anything else. If you did not jump to your own conclusions and instead engaged in dialogue you might have learned that.

Sorry Dad! Shall I go to my room? :confused::p:D

[guy b.]

This is strange as GL system does not resemble WSL's one bit. In fact most of it is rubbish IMO. GL and WSL did not see eye to eye and there was a riff that formed if rumors are to be believed. GL has his own ideas and I was told by somebody in Hong Kong that even in WSL's class when GL was an assistant he was teaching things that WSL did not like. Later GL opened his own school down the road.

I don't know about Gary Lam's system, have not experienced it. All I know is that his claim to have systematized the teaching is uncontroversial. He definitely makes this claim publicly and has been making it for a long time. I believe his teaching style has several different levels and you work your way through it systematically. I have no idea if the system works or not, or if it is any kind of improvement on what WSL taught in terms of either teaching methodology or content. From what I have seen of Gary Lam wing chun it looks better than some and worse than others. The seminar incident you allude to didn't make him look that great I agree.


Also possibly true and could explain why only several people are known for getting more of his attention than others. Who knows? The argument has been raging since the early 70's.

I think it is the only real explanation. You just have to make your choice as to who got the real thing from him. The various "interpretations" are so different that at least some of them are very likely to be complete nonsense.

[Graham H]

From what I have seen of Gary Lam wing chun it looks better than some and worse than others. The seminar incident you allude to didn't make him look that great I agree.

Better than some worse than others?? I agree.

That "incident" isn't the only absurd thing that I have seen GL do. Can he fight? Who knows? The big question for me as a perspective student would be would I want to be taught that rubbish? Simple answer....No!

For me the big question is always "will it work?" Quite frankly most of the Wing Chun systems that I have been part of have contained ridiculous ideas taught by lemmings that simply follow a method because of bloodlines and reputation. I could care less "who" they are. If their Wing Chun works in a non co-operative situation then they have my vote. The countless of thousands of Wing Chun teachers and students around the world are practicing in-effective nonsense by being stuck on each others arms all day long and thinking that the system enhances chi in some sort of weird way.

A good article wrote by a peer of mine.

http://www.abmvt.com/the-chi-sau-misconception.jpg

[guy b.]

Better than some worse than others?? I agree.

That "incident" isn't the only absurd thing that I have seen GL do. Can he fight? Who knows? The big question for me as a perspective student would be would I want to be taught that rubbish? Simple answer....No!

I think it is pretty hard for a beginner in wing chun to accept this reality if they don't have previous contact MA or sport experience. They see what looks very fast and complex and exotic movement and believe that it must have some kind of magic to it that defies the actual logic of stand up fighting (hitting people). They want that super power for themselves. It is very seductive, especially for someone looking for a shortcut, which is most of us.


For me the big question is always "will it work?" Quite frankly most of the Wing Chun systems that I have been part of have contained ridiculous ideas taught by lemmings that simply follow a method because of bloodlines and reputation. I could care less "who" they are.

How long did you spend in these other systems though?


If their Wing Chun works in a non co-operative situation then they have my vote. The countless of thousands of Wing Chun teachers and students around the world are practicing in-effective nonsense by being stuck on each others arms all day long and thinking that the system enhances chi in some sort of weird way.

Agree. Once you have invested time in that it is very hard to call it all bollocks and start again.


A good article wrote by a peer of mine.

That is a top article. Didn't the author train with Gary Lam though? Do you have part 2?

[Graham H]

I think it is pretty hard for a beginner in wing chun to accept this reality if they don't have previous contact MA or sport experience. They see what looks very fast and complex and exotic movement and believe that it must have some kind of magic to it that defies the actual logic of stand up fighting (hitting people). They want that super power for themselves. It is very seductive, especially for someone looking for a shortcut, which is most of us.

Agree


How long did you spend in these other systems though?

8 or 9 years


Once you have invested time in that it is very hard to call it all bollocks and start again.

Yes it was very hard to get knocked down to earth by people with only 20% of the time I had spent training. I had to start again and also tell my then students that we were doing it wrong.


That is a top article. Didn't the author train with Gary Lam though? Do you have part 2?

Yes Ernie was with GL for years which is why I know certain things. Since then Ernie has gone on to completely change his thinking and system and he is making noises in the right places. Like me (and you) he knows the rubbish that is pushed around in most circles of Wing Chun, ;)

There isn't a part two yet. He told me the other day that he will be sorting that out in the future.

[Graham H]

I talk to Ernie quite a bit and I can tell you one thing for sure. If there were more people like him around there would be less charlatans and muppets running amok in Wing Chun. ;)

[k gledhill]

I have a friend who trains with GL, we meet up occasionally and exchange ideas.

[tc101]

You just have to make your choice as to who got the real thing from him.

First of all you are talking about GL and wasn't he WSLs long time and I mean long time assistant instructor? That means Wong chose him out of many many others to aid in teaching. So do you think WSL was a moron? Do you think he would chose and keep an assistant instructor who could not represent and assist him?

Second you mention the so called real thing. Thinking there is such a thing as the real wing chun is precisely what leads people into their cubby holes and closes them off from reality and gives them the false sense of superiority that leads them to call people names and ridicule what they do while never stepping up to the plate themselves. The real thing if you want to look at it that way is the level of training you do. Most people in wing chun like people who go to Title Boxing Gyms never do the level of training to develop into a skillful fighter. The art or the coach or instructor is not what prevents this development. Title Boxing teaches the real thing but it does not provide the level of training to develop real boxers.

The other thing is you guys talk about WSL as though he was some god. Sure he won some roof top fights but so did others. He was soundly beaten by the Thais but so were others. He was a well respected wing chun practitioner taught by Yip Man but so were others.

[Graham H]

First of all you are talking about GL and wasn't he WSLs long time and I mean long time assistant instructor? That means Wong chose him out of many many others to aid in teaching. So do you think WSL was a moron? Do you think he would chose and keep an assistant instructor who could not represent and assist him?

Easy to assume eh? Maybe you should speak to people that were there like I have and then you will know a little more rather than try to speculate.


Second you mention the so called real thing. Thinking there is such a thing as the real wing chun is precisely what leads people into their cubby holes and closes them off from reality and gives them the false sense of superiority that leads them to call people names and ridicule what they do while never stepping up to the plate themselves. The real thing if you want to look at it that way is the level of training you do. Most people in wing chun like people who go to Title Boxing Gyms never do the level of training to develop into a skillful fighter. The art or the coach or instructor is not what prevents this development. Title Boxing teaches the real thing but it does not provide the level of training to develop real boxers.

Completely false. Wing Chun has been dilluted, misinterpreted and misrepresented all over the world. FACT!


The other thing is you guys talk about WSL as though he was some god. Sure he won some roof top fights but so did others. He was soundly beaten by the Thais but so were others. He was a well respected wing chun practitioner taught by Yip Man but so were others.

A God? Get a grip mate!

[tc101]

Easy to assume eh? Maybe you should speak to people that were there like I have and then you will know a little more rather than try to speculate.


Do you mean like your unnamed guy in Hong Kong? No we were not there. We do know that WSL chose him and kept him as his assistant for years.



Completely false. Wing Chun has been dilluted, misinterpreted and misrepresented all over the world. FACT!


You are like Hendrik calling your conclusions fact as though that makes it so.



A God? Get a grip mate!

What makes you think he had the real deal in your words and everyone else had it wrong? Why did only Bayer get the real deal out of all of his many, many students and assistant instructors? How do you even know what the real deal if it were to exist is?

[Graham H]

I'm bored of you nonsense now. I find you quite tiring. No more replies from me so feel free to post into thin air from now on.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Frost]

I'm bored of you nonsense now. I find you quite tiring. No more replies from me so feel free to post into thin air from now on.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

so just to understand correctly, you make disparaging remarks about another instructor under WSL and when asked to name names and provide some proof you pull the same old nonsense and refuse and act like it doesn’t matter to you and you are above all this…..(just like you did when asked to name instructors in another lineage you talked smack about who you have actually trained with)
and people wonder why wing chun is in the mess its in??

[guy b.]

First of all you are talking about GL and wasn't he WSLs long time and I mean long time assistant instructor?

Actually I was talking about Yip Man in the quote you chose to reply to. You just have to make your own decision about who got the real thing from Yip Man. The sheer variety and contradictory nature of it means it can't all be Yip Man's boxing.


That means Wong chose him out of many many others to aid in teaching. So do you think WSL was a moron? Do you think he would chose and keep an assistant instructor who could not represent and assist him?

I have never experienced Gary Lam's wing chun. It does look a bit different to standard WSL style teaching though. Maybe he changed some things? In the interview this is what he seems to be saying.


Second you mention the so called real thing. Thinking there is such a thing as the real wing chun is precisely what leads people into their cubby holes and closes them off from reality and gives them the false sense of superiority that leads them to call people names and ridicule what they do while never stepping up to the plate themselves.

The real Yip Man wing chun is Yip Man's wing chun. The real WSL wing chun is WSL's wing chun. People that learned from Yip Man all do different things so it is very hard to decide who got what Yip Man intended his art to be. You just have to make your choice (if you even care). This is not the case for WSL wing chun which is remarkably similar with a few exceptions.


The real thing if you want to look at it that way is the level of training you do. Most people in wing chun like people who go to Title Boxing Gyms never do the level of training to develop into a skillful fighter. The art or the coach or instructor is not what prevents this development. Title Boxing teaches the real thing but it does not provide the level of training to develop real boxers.

The real thing in wing chun is the wing chun that works according to the stated principles of wing chun. It is possible that the principles of wing chun are crap and that wing chun never works, but I don't believe this to be the case. You can get to a high level of combat effectiveness without doing any wing chun at all (in fact avoiding wing chun is probably a good thing if this is your aim), but doing this would not represent the real wing chun in any way because it wouldn't be wing chun.


The other thing is you guys talk about WSL as though he was some god. Sure he won some roof top fights but so did others. He was soundly beaten by the Thais but so were others. He was a well respected wing chun practitioner taught by Yip Man but so were others.

WSL was a man who was good at wing chun. If you don't like wing chun then do something else.

[Graham H]

so just to understand correctly, you make disparaging remarks about another instructor under WSL and when asked to name names and provide some proof you pull the same old nonsense and refuse and act like it doesn’t matter to you and you are above all this…..(just like you did when asked to name instructors in another lineage you talked smack about who you have actually trained with)
and people wonder why wing chun is in the mess its in??

Yep that's pretty much it Frosty and you're just as much part of it as me or anybody else on this forum. Good eh? :p

[guy b.]

You are like Hendrik calling your conclusions fact as though that makes it so.

Assuming Yip Man had functional and effective wing chun it is simple logic that "wing chun has been dilluted, misinterpreted and misrepresented all over the world" because there are so many different contradictory versions of it, all stemming from Yip Man.

The other possibility is that Yip Man didn't have functional and effective wing chun.

[guy b.]

Why did only Bayer get the real deal out of all of his many, many students and assistant instructors?

Is anyone claiming this?


How do you even know what the real deal if it were to exist is?

It would be functional and effective while adhering to the principles of wing chun

[guy b.]

so just to understand correctly, you make disparaging remarks about another instructor under WSL and when asked to name names and provide some proof you pull the same old nonsense and refuse and act like it doesn’t matter to you and you are above all this

I don't think anyone is ever going to name the name they heard a specific bit of disparaging information from on a public forum. I would take it or leave it if I were you. Why would you even care if you are happy doing what you do?

[Graham H]

Assuming Yip Man had functional and effective wing chun it is simple logic that "wing chun has been dilluted, misinterpreted and misrepresented all over the world" because there are so many different contradictory versions of it, all stemming from Yip Man.

The other possibility is that Yip Man didn't have functional and effective wing chun.

Perfectly put.

[tc101]

Assuming Yip Man had functional and effective wing chun it is simple logic that "wing chun has been dilluted, misinterpreted and misrepresented all over the world" because there are so many different contradictory versions of it, all stemming from Yip Man.

The other possibility is that Yip Man didn't have functional and effective wing chun.

No no no. Functional and effective anything comes from the level of training you the individual do. You cannot give that or pass it to another. Yes there are people who practice wing chun doing different and contradictory things but this is due to wing chun like all martial arts being open to interpretation and variation and to their individual level of accomplishment from training.

[guy b.]

No no no. Functional and effective anything comes from the level of training you the individual do. You cannot give that or pass it to another. Yes there are people who practice wing chun doing different and contradictory things but this is due to wing chun like all martial arts being open to interpretation and variation and to their individual level of accomplishment from training.

This is true and does not in any way counter my point. There are two factors at work here: the effort, talent and intelligence of the student (your point), and the coherence and structure of the system they are learning (my point). Both are required for someone to internalise "the real wing chun".

A student with a lot of natural talent and perseverance can make many things work for them. But it won't be the real wing chun unless it is something that is functional and effective according to the wing chun principles.

[Frost]

I don't think anyone is ever going to name the name they heard a specific bit of disparaging information from on a public forum. I would take it or leave it if I were you. Why would you even care if you are happy doing what you do?

Why not i mean in some cases he says a lineage is rubbish because he has trained in it, he has already rubbished the lineage and the person heading it what’s stopping him doing the same to the actual people he met? Unless of course he hasn’t met them and is worried he will be caught out?

Likewise he isnt worried about calling Garry’s stuff rubbish why is he worried in naming the people involved when he implies garry wasn’t that well liked by WSL, he has already hinted he knows this first hand from talking to people who were there at the time whats stopping him? unless again he doesn’t have anything substantial and is worried he will be caught out?
I don’t care I just find it very odd and funny he and others are happy to sling the mud but become shy when actually asked to back things up

[Graham H]

It's simple lets take 4 conflicting ideas regarding the nature of Bil Jee.

Lineage 1: That the form is used for developing different kinds of power

Lineage 2: That the form is for sending chi to the fingertips and developing inch power in finger and elbow strikes.

Lineage 3: That the form is used for cutting ones losses in a fight.

Lineage 4: That the form teaches secret Dim Mak techniques

Four different lineages that stem from Yip Man. All correct or misinterpreted?

[guy b.]

Why not i mean in some cases he says a lineage is rubbish because he has trained in it, he has already rubbished the lineage and the person heading it what’s stopping him doing the same to the actual people he met? Unless of course he hasn’t met them and is worried he will be caught out?

Likewise he isnt worried about calling Garry’s stuff rubbish why is he worried in naming the people involved when he implies garry wasn’t that well liked by WSL, he has already hinted he knows this first hand from talking to people who were there at the time whats stopping him? unless again he doesn’t have anything substantial and is worried he will be caught out?
I don’t care I just find it very odd and funny he and others are happy to sling the mud but become shy when actually asked to back things up

You will never get the kind of answer you are looking for on a public forum. You must be seriously naive to expect it. If nothing else it would be rude to attribute something someone said in private to them on a forum without their knowledge. If you care then investigate further. If you don't then don't.

[Vajramusti]

Why not i mean in some cases he says a lineage is rubbish because he has trained in it, he has already rubbished the lineage and the person heading it what’s stopping him doing the same to the actual people he met? Unless of course he hasn’t met them and is worried he will be caught out?

Likewise he isnt worried about calling Garry’s stuff rubbish why is he worried in naming the people involved when he implies garry wasn’t that well liked by WSL, he has already hinted he knows this first hand from talking to people who were there at the time whats stopping him? unless again he doesn’t have anything substantial and is worried he will be caught out?
I don’t care I just find it very odd and funny he and others are happy to sling the mud but become shy when actually asked to back things up
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good points. Slinging mud claiming sources without naming them weakens credibility of the mud slinger.

[guy b.]

It's simple lets take 4 conflicting ideas regarding the nature of Bil Jee.

Lineage 1: That the form is used for developing different kinds of power

Lineage 2: That the form is for sending chi to the fingertips and developing inch power in finger and elbow strikes.

Lineage 3: That the form is used for cutting ones losses in a fight.

Lineage 4: That the form teaches secret Dim Mak techniques

Four different lineages that stem from Yip Man. All correct or misinterpreted?

Idiots would probably say that Yip Man, being sneaky and traditional, taught different parts of the whole massively complex art of wing chun to everyone. We just need to add it up into a big pile of internally inconsistent bull**** and we will have resurrected the real wing chun. Everything is just as good and valid as everything else and it is all relative, even when the ideas are mutually incompatible.

[Graham H]

You will never get the kind of answer you are looking for on a public forum. You must be seriously naive to expect it. If nothing else it would be rude to attribute something someone said in private to them on a forum without their knowledge. If you care then investigate further. If you don't then don't.

Yes if he would care to investigate further!

[Frost]

You will never get the kind of answer you are looking for on a public forum. You must be seriously naive to expect it. If nothing else it would be rude to attribute something someone said in private to them on a forum without their knowledge. If you care then investigate further. If you don't then don't.

so its rude to attribute it but not to sling mud and slander people...strange world some wing chunners live in

[guy b.]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Good points. Slinging mud claiming sources without naming them weakens credibility of the mud slinger.

Have you ever, in all of your long years, seen anyone name their source on a public wing chun forum if that source is still alive and they don't know the discussion is going on? Get real. Personally I would rather hear the gossip and make up my own mind about whether I want to investigate further or not. This is the bread and butter of public MA forums and you all do it in one way or another.

[Wayfaring]

A good article wrote by a peer of mine.

http://www.abmvt.com/the-chi-sau-misconception.jpg

Wow. Sounds a lot like what I say, except without all the muppet noise in the background....

[k gledhill]

No no no. Functional and effective anything comes from the level of training you the individual do. You cannot give that or pass it to another. Yes there are people who practice wing chun doing different and contradictory things but this is due to wing chun like all martial arts being open to interpretation and variation and to their individual level of accomplishment from training.

Ahhhh.... It's going back to the same thing, one can work his heart out but with wrong information .... I was in this trap.
I see guys with good techniques outside wsl lineage. But it's rare and seems more that individuals grasp than " whole lineage ", and while that individual may have a visible grasp of llhs lsjc some other issues footwork might not be backing up hands etc...

Ving Tsun is not an art open to subjective / personal interpratation.
Let me put it this way , there are SPECIFIC ERRORS a human being can make fighting. This is why vt approach isn't " do this to a boxer and this to karate guy " . Humans make certain actions, they are conditioned certain ways by natural focus on using hands to grab, issue force, etc... It's not natural when starting vt to use squared shoulders etc... How many guys starting vt have you heard say" this feels weird" ?
Sure it does, why? Because we are reconditioning our natural ( human ) traits.
We can TEST the errors we know to recondition through high repetitions of the " same thing over and over ; ) " a criticism of exactly what PB does. Only we recondition ourselves to become thoughtless in our intercepting fist approach. The system is designed to take advantage of common HUMAN errors.
So we can test a specific series of concepts and techniques guided by them. If you don't follow certain simple reconditioning actions YOU'RE MAKING THE SAME
MISTAKES WHEN YOU STARTED. This could go on for years training simple errors but because the isolated group don't know how to take advantge of the errors everyone just carries on...being human.
I was explaining this to a student of a different lineage in a friendly exchange not to long ago in NYC. He said to me, seeing the idea first hand, that he would have to engage in eradicating 9 years ( not as long as me ) of muscle memory aka reconditioning simple reflex like responses.


Loi Lau Hoi sung lat sao Jik chun

[Graham H]

Idiots would probably say that Yip Man, being sneaky and traditional, taught different parts of the whole massively complex art of wing chun to everyone. We just need to add it up into a big pile of internally inconsistent bull**** and we will have resurrected the real wing chun. Everything is just as good and valid as everything else and it is all relative, even when the ideas are mutually incompatible.

Yes but would you go to a school where they claimed to be teaching dim mak that came from Yip Man? Do you believe that chi can aid finger strikes? Do you believe that a whole form would be dedicated to developing different kinds of power that has somehow been missed or only touched on before or do you believe that the form teaches you that if the sh1t hits the fan in a fight that we have to try and escape with as little damage as possible.....if possible.

[guy b.]

so its rude to attribute it but not to sling mud and slander people...strange world some wing chunners live in

It is very rude to betray the confidence of friends. I don't think it is nearly as rude to attack people you have little regard for. There wouldn't be much discussion here without the gossip and argument because most of us don't agree about anything regarding wing chun and we all believe we are right. It is human nature. You are just the same and waste no time attacking things you dislike.

[Graham H]

Ahhhh.... It's going back to the same thing, one can work his heart out but with wrong information .... I was in this trap.
I see guys with good techniques outside wsl lineage. But it's rare and seems more that individuals grasp than " whole lineage ", and while that individual may have a visible grasp of llhs lsjc some other issues footwork might not be backing up hands etc...

Ving Tsun is not an art open to subjective / personal interpratation.
Let me put it this way , there are SPECIFIC ERRORS a human being can make fighting. This is why vt approach isn't " do this to a boxer and this to karate guy " . Humans make certain actions, they are conditioned certain ways by natural focus on using hands to grab, issue force, etc... It's not natural when starting vt to use squared shoulders etc... How many guys starting vt have you heard say" this feels weird" ?
Sure it does, why? Because we are reconditioning our natural ( human ) traits.
We can TEST the errors we know to recondition through high repetitions of the " same thing over and over ; ) " a criticism of exactly what PB does. Only we recondition ourselves to become thoughtless in our intercepting fist approach. The system is designed to take advantage of common HUMAN errors.
So we can test a specific series of concepts and techniques guided by them. If you don't follow certain simple reconditioning actions YOUR MAKING THE SAME
MISTAKES WHEN YOU STARTED. This could go on for years training simple errors but because the isolated group don't know how to take advantge of the errors everyone just carries on...being human.
I was explaining this to a student of a different lineage in a friendly exchange not to long ago in NYC. He said to me, seeing the idea first hand, that he would have to engage in eradicating 9 years ( not as long as me ) of muscle memory aka reconditioning simple reflex like responses.


Loi Lau Hoi sung lat sao Jik chun

Good post Kev and I was also explaining this to a student from the Ip Ching lineage last night.

His words..."the more I am exposed to these ideas the more I relaize how little I know"

....11 years down the line.

[guy b.]

Yes but would you go to a school where they claimed to be teaching dim mak that came from Yip Man? Do you believe that chi can aid finger strikes? Do you believe that a whole form would be dedicated to developing different kinds of power that has somehow been missed or only touched on before or do you believe that the form teaches you that if the sh1t hits the fan in a fight that we have to try and escape with as little damage as possible.....if possible.

Of course not. I have made my decision about what I believe to be true and it sounds similar to what you believe. I was jokingly thinking like a relativist. In reality there can be no relativism in wing chun. Some of it is as Yip Man intended and some is..not

[k gledhill]

Good post Kev and I was also explaining this to a student from the Ip Ching lineage last night.

His words..."the more I am exposed to these ideas the more I relaize how little I know"

....11 years down the line.

I have to become a broken record repeating it to my own groups , don't take the hand away ! ; ) don't rotate , face !
****ed humans : ) I understand the article pb wrote mentioning the limits being the " human condition " or reverting back to human from VT, we can hope to achieve 75% total assimilation ; ) in a lifetime.

[k gledhill]

Dim mak is a kids game to exact revenge, wear gloves in case you touch yourself ; /

[sanjuro_ronin]

All that is wrong with WC can be found in this thread.
Well done guys.
:(

[guy b.]

All that is wrong with WC can be found in this thread.
Well done guys.
:(

Group hug?

[Graham H]

Of course not. I have made my decision about what I believe to be true and it sounds similar to what you believe. I was jokingly thinking like a relativist. In reality there can be no relativism in wing chun. Some of it is as Yip Man intended and some is..not

I knew that. You seem to be one of the level headed intelligent ones on here. ;)

It's funny we are attacked from the same angles :D

[Graham H]

I have to become a broken record repeating it to my own groups , don't take the hand away ! ; ) don't rotate , face !
****ed humans : ) I understand the article pb wrote mentioning the limits being the " human condition " or reverting back to human from VT, we can hope to achieve 75% total assimilation ; ) in a lifetime.

Yes I am a broken record on a daily basis but there is nothing like reaffirming the goodies lol

[Graham H]

All that is wrong with WC can be found in this thread.
Well done guys.
:(

Well it is now you have piped up! :D

[k gledhill]

All that is wrong with WC can be found in this thread.
Well done guys.
:(

We are only human ; )

[sanjuro_ronin]

We are only human ; )

I don't think WC has evolved to that point and this thread, like most of the WC forum, is evidence of that.
:D

[k gledhill]

Yes I am a broken record on a daily basis but there is nothing like reaffirming the goodies lol

I need a tape machine with error buttons to push.
Don't look to pressure arms
Don't lean
You turn too much
Your elbow is out
You took your hand away
Relax !!!!!!
Punch, really punch, come on !!! ; )
And
Vu sao !!!!!
More but ,....

[k gledhill]

I don't think WC has evolved to that point and this thread, like most of the WC forum, is evidence of that.
:D

A small faction realize theyre imperfect. : ) myself included.

[guy b.]

I don't think WC has evolved to that point and this thread, like most of the WC forum, is evidence of that.
:D

Given the situation after Yip Man, what do you expect? And what should we do about it?

[Graham H]

I need a tape machine with error buttons to push.
Don't look to pressure arms
Don't lean
You turn too much
Your elbow is out
You took your hand away
Relax !!!!!!
Punch, really punch, come on !!! ; )
And
Vu sao !!!!!
More but ,....

LOL....always the f***ing Wu sau! :D

[k gledhill]

LOL....always the f***ing Wu sau! :D

You ain't got **** without vwu sao !!

[guy b.]

I need a tape machine with error buttons to push.
Don't look to pressure arms
Don't lean
You turn too much
Your elbow is out
You took your hand away
Relax !!!!!!
Punch, really punch, come on !!! ; )
And
Vu sao !!!!!
More but ,....

I can't see how people have time for 15 different kinds of power and chi gung methods on top when just the simple things are so difficult. Maybe they are amazingly gifted and I am a physical retard?

[k gledhill]

I can't see how people have time for 15 different kinds of power and chi gung methods on top when just the simple things are so difficult. Maybe they are amazingly gifted and I am a physical retard?

Agree, just try the list while moving at high speed of a guy doing as close to perfect as he can after 30 yrs ! If you can throw chi into it and not get your nose broken for it all the better, maybe chi will lessen the pain ; )

[Graham H]

I can't see how people have time for 15 different kinds of power and chi gung methods on top when just the simple things are so difficult. Maybe they are amazingly gifted and I am a physical retard?

Very true. It's hard enough being able to use the fundamentals in sparring never mind anything else. As soon as you start adding things that don't belong the whole system is fooked. These things only appeal to people with funny ideas and aspirations.

Adding chi gung, dim mak, different kinds of power, thinking that one can win a fight by sensing energy in another's arms is really what damages the system. Also adding 100's of different fighting applications is completely wrong. Less is better. Simple thinking, intelligent fighting.

[k gledhill]

Very true. It's hard enough being able to use the fundamentals in sparring never mind anything else. As soon as you start adding things that don't belong the whole system is fooked. These things only appeal to people with funny ideas and aspirations.

Adding chi gung, dim mak, different kinds of power, thinking that one can win a fight by sensing energy in another's arms is really what damages the system. Also adding 100's of different fighting applications is completely wrong. Less is better. Simple thinking, intelligent fighting.

The error of arm sensing bs starts at Dan chi sao with the simple words , now feel the opponents arm and block it, elbow ideas have been lost for " feel me , follow you, feeling me ..." : /

[Graham H]

The error of arm sensing bs starts at Dan chi sao with the simple words , now feel the opponents arm and block it, elbow ideas have been lost for " feel me , follow you, feeling me ..." : /

Agreed but prior to that how many people fail to explain the correct reasons for the pushing and pulling of Tan, Fuk, Wu in SLT? The problem quickly starts from the first lesson or even before when Wing Chun is marketed as if this arm sensing game has some sort of benefit in actual combat.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Given the situation after Yip Man, what do you expect? And what should we do about it?

Understand that personalization of a MA system is NOT a bad thing that that a MA style evolving and adapting is not a bad thing.
Which means that not everyone's WC will be the same.

[Graham H]

Understand that personalization of a MA system is NOT a bad thing that that a MA style evolving and adapting is not a bad thing.
Which means that not everyone's WC will be the same.

When sound ideas and methods totally contradict each other and the forms used for completely different purposes then questions need to be asked. Yip Man did not have 1000 different versions of Wing Chun. It's not possible. Only one version that got b^stardized because he and subsequent instructors were less than forthcoming with the knowledge for whatever reasons.

People will fill the gaps in with rubbish and eventually it makes no sense. In this case when you see people sparring you cannot see any Wing Chun movements only chain punching mayhem. Some people in Wing Chun don't even encourage sparring. They like to tie each other up in knots and not get hurt.

[k gledhill]

Agreed but prior to that how many people fail to explain the correct reasons for the pushing and pulling of Tan, Fuk, Wu in SLT? The problem quickly starts from the first lesson or even before when Wing Chun is marketed as if this arm sensing game has some sort of benefit in actual combat.

True. I kick myself for not seeing this my er self. :/

[k gledhill]

When sound ideas and methods totally contradict each other and the forms used for completely different purposes then questions need to be asked. Yip Man did not have 1000 different versions of Wing Chun. It's not possible. Only one version that got b^stardized because he and subsequent instructors were less than forthcoming with the knowledge for whatever reasons.

People will fill the gaps in with rubbish and eventually it makes no sense. In this case when you see people sparring you cannot see any Wing Chun movements only chain punching mayhem. Some people in Wing Chun don't even encourage sparring. They like to tie each other up in knots and not get hurt.

Agree, one system, one very abstract reconditioning method. Leaving guessing open to anyone who doesn't quite grasp the idea or just follows other mainstream guesswork.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When sound ideas and methods totally contradict each other and the forms used for completely different purposes then questions need to be asked. Yip Man did not have 1000 different versions of Wing Chun. It's not possible. Only one version that got b^stardized because he and subsequent instructors were less than forthcoming with the knowledge for whatever reasons.

People will fill the gaps in with rubbish and eventually it makes no sense. In this case when you see people sparring you cannot see any Wing Chun movements only chain punching mayhem. Some people in Wing Chun don't even encourage sparring. They like to tie each other up in knots and not get hurt.

Valid points and criticisms.
That said, one can't fault a person/group for "filling in the gaps", can they?
That said, there is a core to WC and that core MUST be present and respected.

[Ali. R]

It would be nice If people put up ‘clips’ to share their point of views (not of others but of themselves) which will show their timing, energies, sensibilities, structures and most of all, their comprehension.

But we should exempt ‘Joy’ by him being the ‘Elder’, not saying that he is the judge, but he has more wisdom than all of us here put together; that’s if most of you here understand the concept of respect. Which I’m sure he who speaks the loudest does not know of its definition.

I’ve made clips within the average of three times a year, by only having 24 videos on youtube and while being a member for almost 8 years. But,,,, I only hear the ‘loud talkers’ talking about what others can do and never about themselves. Well,,, let’s see what YOU can do rather speaking on what lineage is the best. And I’m not the man in ‘wing chun’ but only consider my skills as average at best.

I suggest that Graham H starts off first, and then I wouldn’t have any problems following up -or- would you (Graham) like to continue to play “London Bridges is Falling Down" with ‘WSL’ and your Sifus thereafter. It shouldn’t be a problem showing us what YOU really know, but most of all, what YOU can do, being that you have the best lineage here on this forum (personally back it up).

YOU can use any subject you want dealing with ‘wing chun’. Or maybe you just prefer only to talk loud or show us all, your timing, energies, sensibilities, structures and most of all YOUR comprehension on how great of a lineage you really have. I have no problem with you because everyone knows “he who speaks the loudest never back their sh!t up”. But its a very, very few that can….;)

[guy b.]

Understand that personalization of a MA system is NOT a bad thing that that a MA style evolving and adapting is not a bad thing.
Which means that not everyone's WC will be the same.

wing chun is a very sparse principle based martial art where almost every part of the training has a specific reason. If you start changing bits or have wrong ideas about the reason behind movements then it can fall apart as a coherent whole very quickly.

[tc101]

This is true and does not in any way counter my point. There are two factors at work here: the effort, talent and intelligence of the student (your point), and the coherence and structure of the system they are learning (my point). Both are required for someone to internalise "the real wing chun".

A student with a lot of natural talent and perseverance can make many things work for them. But it won't be the real wing chun unless it is something that is functional and effective according to the wing chun principles.

What are the wing chun principles? They are ideas simply that. Ideas. Like the principle of the centerline, the idea can be interpreted differently by different people based on different experience and level. There is no one right way or best way. The ideas are there to help you develop skills. You fight with your skills not your principles.

Getting hung up on there is a best idea of how to do wing chun is what makes a mess of things and is putting the cart before the horse.

Your real wing chun is your and I emphasize YOUR idea or perhaps more accurately Bayers I do not know. Hendrik has another idea. Someone else has a different idea. Your view leads to so and so can beat me but my idea is right becuase I know what is the right idea. How can you or me or anyone really determine what is the right or best idea anyway? All we can use is our experience which is of course always subjective and limited. It is rather arrogant to say I can be less than top notch at using my wing chun but I can tell the whole world I know how it should be done right. There are guys who have different ideas who can beat you with their wrong in your view ideas.

There are principles for conditioning as well. Conditioining is like skill a huge part of your performance ability. You don't internalize the principles of conditioning, you use those to help you in your training of becoming more conditioned. You can argue about how your principles of conditioning is better or best or the real conditioning but what matters is the results of your training or how good is your conditioning.

Similarly, you can't internalize a principle related to skill either. You can internalize or make autonomous certain behaviors or learned actions through training to be but not ideas. If I internalize wing chun punching I have not internalized any principle but an learned action or skill.

I mentioned training levels because that is the correcting mechanism for the individual in using their wing chun. Training provides feedback on whether or not we are making our ideas and skills work, how well they are working and so forth. The higher the level of training, the better and better feedback we get. I mention this because we just as through training our movement, actions, responses, etc. will change so will our ideas and principles and interpretation of principles. Oour perspective changes as we grow and will vary from level to level.

[JPinAZ]

Good post Kev and I was also explaining this to a student from the Ip Ching lineage last night.

His words..."the more I am exposed to these ideas the more I relaize how little I know"

....11 years down the line.

I agree with what Kev's saying. I thought this stuff was simple, common knowledge (?)

[trubblman]

As for PB he's different. No chi sau. He fights you and you know. Simple. No f**king around. Prior to PB all me previous Teachers did was try and tie me up in knots and I fell for it.


I have seen PB's videos. I see only chi sau. Never seen any fights.

[trubblman]

All that is wrong with WC can be found in this thread.
Well done guys.
:(


If you change the word "thread" to "forum" youd be entirely more accurate.

[k gledhill]

I have seen PB's videos. I see only chi sau. Never seen any fights.

Have you got a clip of a " fight " you are in ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Have you got a clip of a " fight " you are in ?

Are you suggesting that unless some has a clip of them fighting, they shouldn't demand that of anyone else?
:rolleyes:

[k gledhill]

Are you suggesting that unless some has a clip of them fighting, they shouldn't demand that of anyone else?
:rolleyes:

No, I have had 40+ fights I can remember, but not one on tape ( before phones smarter than me ) Its not like, sure I have a shelf full of bare knuckle dust ups from last week for your viewing pleasure.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No, I have had 40+ fights I can remember, but not one on tape ( before phones smarter than me ) Its not like, sure I have a shelf full of bare knuckle dust ups from last week for your viewing pleasure.

I like PB stuff, but the truth is that I don't recall on fight in any of the clips I've seen.
I do accept that I may be wrong and that I may have missed it.
And, so that there is no confusion, a fight is where the opponents are actively trying to beat the crap out of each other.

Here is the thing, if a person or school or group DO put up clips of them doing whatever they are doing then they most certainly ARE able to put up clips of actual fighting.

Right?

[k gledhill]

I like PB stuff, but the truth is that I don't recall on fight in any of the clips I've seen.
I do accept that I may be wrong and that I may have missed it.
And, so that there is no confusion, a fight is where the opponents are actively trying to beat the crap out of each other.

Here is the thing, if a person or school or group DO put up clips of them doing whatever they are doing then they most certainly ARE able to put up clips of actual fighting.

Right?

They may not want to share ; ) non commercial , no DVDs for sale.

[KPM]

Idiots would probably say that Yip Man, being sneaky and traditional, taught different parts of the whole massively complex art of wing chun to everyone. We just need to add it up into a big pile of internally inconsistent bull**** and we will have resurrected the real wing chun. Everything is just as good and valid as everything else and it is all relative, even when the ideas are mutually incompatible.

No, this particular idiot (me) would say that Yip Man likely taught more in-depth and in detail at different stages of his teaching career and with different students. Those that learned from him then "extrapolated" their own ideas to fill in some of the gaps they may have missed. Yip Man was somewhat "traditional" and so likely did not show the "casual" student the same depth of teaching he did his "inner" students. What one student "extrapolated" in order the make their Wing Chun work for them may be somewhat different and therefore inconsistent from what another student came up with. Leung Sheung moved and did Wing Chun very differently than Wong Shun Leung, yet both were top students of Yip Man that he thought highly of.


Wong Shun Leung very likely changed things around and did things differently from what Yip Man did. But I bet if you had asked him about it, he would say it was Yip Man's Wing Chun. He would not be telling lies or being deceptive. It is just a traditional Chinese way. He would not want to be seen taking credit for himself or taking away from his Sifu. So he would naturally credit Yip Man with everything he did. Obviously this kind of attitude, though commendable, makes it very hard to trace back to the "real deal", whatever that is!

Certainly, some ways of doing Wing Chun will be better than others, and not everyone's total understanding of Wing Chun will be compatible. Its always a case of "buyer beware!" If you can make it work, then great!...regardless of lineage. But the debate will always be how we define "workable" Wing Chun!

[KPM]

Understand that personalization of a MA system is NOT a bad thing that that a MA style evolving and adapting is not a bad thing.
Which means that not everyone's WC will be the same.

Point on! Give the man a high five! ;)

[KPM]

People will fill the gaps in with rubbish and eventually it makes no sense. In this case when you see people sparring you cannot see any Wing Chun movements only chain punching mayhem. Some people in Wing Chun don't even encourage sparring. They like to tie each other up in knots and not get hurt.

This is true. Evolution only works if the result is effective. Without "pressure testing" any changes they can easily go wrong. I agree with you that far too many people in Wing Chun think that Chi Sao is the appropriate place for this "pressure testing".

[trubblman]

Have you got a clip of a " fight " you are in ?

I do not but I was not the one who said I fight. A gentleman in an earlier posting said that PB fights. The proponent of the argument has the burden of persuasion. I am not the proponent so I dont have the burden of persuasion.

[sanjuro_ronin]

They may not want to share ; ) non commercial , no DVDs for sale.

So why put up demo videos WITHOUT fighting ?

[KPM]

I do not but I was not the one who said I fight. A gentleman in an earlier posting said that PB fights. The proponent of the argument has the burden of persuasion. I am not the proponent so I dont have the burden of persuasion.

I agree. If the proponents of a lineage are saying that Chi Sao is not where its at and that real fighting is not Chi Sao, then at the very least there should be some hard sparring footage up rather then Chi Sao footage.

[k gledhill]

I do not but I was not the one who said I fight. A gentleman in an earlier posting said that PB fights. The proponent of the argument has the burden of persuasion. I am not the proponent so I dont have the burden of persuasion.

Um , so do you ? Do you have any clips of you in a fight ?
I don't.

[k gledhill]

So why put up demo videos WITHOUT fighting ?

? That's how it is, no sparring clips.

[Ali. R]

It doesn’t make any sense to put up a fight clip, when it’s many other ways to see ones skill level, and when someone is asked to put up a clip, they’ll (the other guy) will take it to a whole different level.

But, when I’d volunteered to put a recent clip of myself fighting, I was told by many, that it had to be in a professional setting or it wouldn’t count. Hummm I wonder why?

What I’m saying is, everybody talks crap, but no one wants to show their basic skill level and in-depth comprehension or understanding; so this crap can go on, on and on. Everyone seems to always find a way to hide somehow by always asking for things that they themselves wouldn’t do.

This is why most people think that wing chun is BS, by wing chun jokers giving it a bad name by not producing, but keep talking a whole lot of smack.

[GlennR]

Wow. Sounds a lot like what I say, except without all the muppet noise in the background....

Yep, its a good article

[GlennR]

God, any PB festathon.

"We know the real WC"

"ha, you should have seen this student from XYZ lineage"

"i got told this by somebody, somewhere about someone... but i cant tell you"

"blah blah blah"

And ofcourse the caveat.........

"we dont release video of us sparring"

Face it, my fine PB friends, you can pontificate about your VT greatness, but until you show clips of you guys fighting/sparring you are just like the rest of the WC folk in the eyes of the MA world

And that is a bunch of chi-sao/form training wannabes

Oh, and my (and the rest of the forums) caveat, YOU are the ones saying your way IS the best way.... no one else is

[k gledhill]

God, any PB festathon.

"We know the real WC"

"ha, you should have seen this student from XYZ lineage"

"i got told this by somebody, somewhere about someone... but i cant tell you"

"blah blah blah"

And ofcourse the caveat.........

"we dont release video of us sparring"

Face it, my fine PB friends, you can pontificate about your VT greatness, but until you show clips of you guys fighting/sparring you are just like the rest of the WC folk in the eyes of the MA world

And that is a bunch of chi-sao/form training wannabes

Oh, and my (and the rest of the forums) caveat, YOU are the ones saying your way IS the best way.... no one else is

Lmao at Glenda swinging her handbag !

[GlennR]

Lmao at Glenda swinging her handbag !

Be more dangerous than what ive seen in the countless clips you lot have put up..


Take that Kevinda!!

[PalmStriker]

This thread is a perfect example of a point I made in the "is SLT practical" thread. There is no such thing as "authentic", "100% genuine", "Yip Man" Wing Chun. That died with Yip Man. So all of the posts we have seen stating that "so and so" is not real "Yip Man" Wing Chun are rather silly. For someone to say they can look at someone's SLT and know whether it is "true Yip Man Wing Chun" is rather ridiculous. Are they talking about Yip Man in his early years? Or Yip Man in is later years when he is suffering from cancer? Are they talking about what Yip Man showed to his more mature students with an intellectual bent and experience in other martial arts? Or what he showed to his young 17 year old students who wanted to bang? This thread is a perfect of example showing that what Yip Man himself taught throughout different stages of his career or to different types of students was not a consistent standard. WSL put his own interpretation and understanding into what YM taught him. GL and PB both put their own interpretation and understanding into what WSL taught them. Graham has also likely put his own interpretation and understanding into what PB taught him. Now for someone that has established a systematic curriculum and taught it consistently to all of their students, variations are going to be far smaller. So I would think it is possible to look at what WSL's students are doing and note WSL-specific things and know it is his system. But already we have in this discussion a debate as to whether one of WSL's direct students is still doing WSL's Wing Chun or not. With Yip Man's Wing Chun we are now several generations removed. How many variations are going to creep into "100% authentic genuine" Yip Man Wing Chun in 2 generations? Or three? Anyway, just thought I would take this opportunity to reinforce the idea that being so darn dogmatic and religious about who is doing their Wing Chun "right" or "wrong" is somewhat silly. Not targeting anyone in this thread.....just saying. ;)
You just misquoted me, moron. " For someone to say they can look at someone's SLT and know whether it is "true Yip Man Wing Chun" That is not what I said. I said "you can see the Master Yip Hong Kong signature in the SLT demo of a practitioner in his WC lineage. Easy enough. Just as the distinct signature in all the mainstream lineages. Fact.

[PalmStriker]

so its rude to attribute it but not to sling mud and slander people...strange world some wing chunners live in :D Ha! Ha! Wingchun has become a cult for those who need placement and recognition of worth. In my eyes, the lineages came to an end with the Three Heroes of Farshan, just as the Dynasties also came to pass. That is Genuine TCMA.

[Frost]

So why put up demo videos WITHOUT fighting ?

and thats the rub of it isnt it.

You cant claim you are a non commercial club and dont post clips (and for that matter claim you spar all the time) when their are dozens of clips floating around of you and ALL you are doing is chi saoing....that would set of the b*ll**** detector of almost anyone (fan boys not included obviously)

[tc101]

No, I have had 40+ fights I can remember, but not one on tape ( before phones smarter than me ) Its not like, sure I have a shelf full of bare knuckle dust ups from last week for your viewing pleasure.

When I hear things like this it makes me pause and wonder. It makes me wonder how much time did you do in jail since I cannot imagine someone with that record not doing a fair amount of time. It also makes me wonder what sort of personality disorder or mental illness you have to have driven you to getting in that many fights. I am a LEO and work secondary security all the time and neither myself or anyone I know has had anywhere near that.

[Graham H]

When I hear things like this it makes me pause and wonder. It makes me wonder how much time did you do in jail since I cannot imagine someone with that record not doing a fair amount of time. It also makes me wonder what sort of personality disorder or mental illness you have to have driven you to getting in that many fights. I am a LEO and work secondary security all the time and neither myself or anyone I know has had anywhere near that.

I've also had my fair share of street fights. I also have a mental illness and a personality disorder. I also like talking to myself when nobody is looking. As I have all these disorders it's only natural that I practice Wing Chun where I am among friends. :D

[tc101]

and thats the rub of it isnt it.

You cant claim you are a non commercial club and dont post clips (and for that matter claim you spar all the time) when their are dozens of clips floating around of you and ALL you are doing is chi saoing....that would set of the b*ll**** detector of almost anyone (fan boys not included obviously)

I see the value in posting demo videos as they can be very instructive. The rub as you call it is when you make claims of superiority which includes how everyone else is mistaken and then do not step up to the plate. In this case he teaches at a gym with all sorts of boxers and mma people so they are readily available to him.

[tc101]

I've also had my fair share of street fights. I also have a mental illness and a personality disorder. I also like talking to myself when nobody is looking. As I have all these disorders it's only natural that I practice Wing Chun where I am among friends. :D

I think that people making claims of having done much in the way of street fighting is a dead giveaway.

[BPWT]

I also have a mental illness and a personality disorder.

I knew it! Validation is a sweet, sweet thing. :D

[Graham H]

I think that people making claims of having done much in the way of street fighting is a dead giveaway.

Whatever you think is not important but being involved in real situations gives you an idea of what works and what doesn't. Added to that is the adrenaline dump which is hard to recreate in a school. It's good and valuable experience.

[Graham H]

I knew it! Validation is a sweet, sweet thing. :D

Yes it is. What disorders do you have? Keep it to 2000 words please? ;)

[BPWT]

Yes it is. What disorders do you have? Keep it to 2000 words please? ;)

Me? Erectile dysfunction, weak bladder, irritable bowel syndrome. :D

(Just 8 words needed)

[Graham H]

Me? Erectile dysfunction, weak bladder, irritable bowel syndrome. :D

(Just 8 words needed)

Normal for blokes our age! lol

[tc101]

Whatever you think is not important but being involved in real situations gives you an idea of what works and what doesn't. Added to that is the adrenaline dump which is hard to recreate in a school. It's good and valuable experience.

Of course real situational experience is useful that is not what I was talking about and I think you know that. I was talking about people saying they had this real life experience when they really haven't.

[Graham H]

Of course real situational experience is useful that is not what I was talking about and I think you know that. I was talking about people saying they had this real life experience when they really haven't.

So are you saying that we are lying? :confused:

[Jansingsang]

So are you saying that we are lying? :confused:

Liar liar your pants are on fire :p :D

[Graham H]

Liar liar your pants are on fire :p :D

LOL I suppose until you actually meet somebody you can accuse them of lying. It's easy to say anything on here.

[GlennR]

LOL I suppose until you actually meet somebody you can accuse them of lying. It's easy to say anything on here.

Yes, yes it is ;)

[Graham H]

Yes, yes it is ;)

Yes because you could actually be a 6ft 2 lady boy who has just had the op and you like to date small blonde headed boys. :D:D

[GlennR]

Yes because you could actually be a 6ft 2 lady boy who has just had the op and you like to date small blonde headed boys. :D:D

**** it graham, do you have a camera on me right now!?!?!?

[Graham H]

**** it graham, do you have a camera on me right now!?!?!?

Its been on you for months

[tc101]

So are you saying that we are lying? :confused:

I am saying that it is not believable and defies common sense.

[Graham H]

I am saying that it is not believable and defies common sense.

A bit like this forum :)

[GlennR]

Its been on you for months

So you like my new dress then???

[tc101]

A bit like this forum :)

We finally have hit common ground. :)

[Graham H]

So you like my new dress then???

Needs to be a bit higher mate. I can't see your man minge.

[Graham H]

We finally have hit common ground. :)

Yes let's indulge in that pleasant feeling for a while. :p

[GlennR]

Needs to be a bit higher mate. I can't see your man minge.

Hahaha, I'll get the hedge trimmer out!

[Graham H]

Hahaha, I'll get the hedge trimmer out!

LOL you might want to take a few inches off your back and legs as well poppet!

[sanjuro_ronin]

I see the value in posting demo videos as they can be very instructive. The rub as you call it is when you make claims of superiority which includes how everyone else is mistaken and then do not step up to the plate. In this case he teaches at a gym with all sorts of boxers and mma people so they are readily available to him.

Demo and instructional clips have their use, far more than fighting clips and sparring clips.
That said, there is a progression that is crucial in putting out clips of a system:
Instruct
Demo
Sparring
Competition ( if applicable).

[KPM]

You just misquoted me, moron. " For someone to say they can look at someone's SLT and know whether it is "true Yip Man Wing Chun" That is not what I said. I said "you can see the Master Yip Hong Kong signature in the SLT demo of a practitioner in his WC lineage. Easy enough. Just as the distinct signature in all the mainstream lineages. Fact.

Moron? What, are you 12? If we were sitting and talking over a beer would you call me a "moron" to my face? I apologize if I didn't get it exactly right, but you didn't either. So I went back and looked it up. This is actually what you said:

Yip Man Wingchun form is alive and well. I can spot it immediately whenever I see any practitioner perform SLT. A good thing. Genuine, if you are into preserving. That is TCMA.

I may have paraphrased a bit, but I believe I did represent what you said accurately. That's the fact. So leave the name-calling off and drop the attitude.

[Vajramusti]

Tat is awfully poor name calling by Palm striker. I saw his statement and KPM restatement of Palmstrikers statement as being pretty close.
------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by PalmStriker View Post
You just misquoted me, moron. " For someone to say they can look at someone's SLT and know whether it is "true Yip Man Wing Chun" That is not what I said. I said "you can see the Master Yip Hong Kong signature in the SLT demo of a practitioner in his WC lineage. Easy enough. Just as the distinct signature in all the mainstream lineages. Fact.
------------------------------------------------------

[k gledhill]

When I hear things like this it makes me pause and wonder. It makes me wonder how much time did you do in jail since I cannot imagine someone with that record not doing a fair amount of time. It also makes me wonder what sort of personality disorder or mental illness you have to have driven you to getting in that many fights. I am a LEO and work secondary security all the time and neither myself or anyone I know has had anywhere near that.

I worked for 10 years as a bouncer in central London. I started doing security in Brixton at " The Fridge " : ) by the head of security who was training at my old V Kan school. we would fill a drawer with knives from searches everyweekend. Then south London bars nightclubs, events.

[tc101]

I worked for 10 years as a bouncer in central London. I started doing security in Brixton at " The Fridge " : ) by the head of security who was training at my old V Kan school. we would fill a drawer with knives from searches everyweekend. Then south London bars nightclubs, events.

I am presently a LEO that has worked and continues to work as secondary security for years. Anyone who works security and gets into fights will be out of a job fast. The whole point as security is to not get into fights and to stop violence before it happens or escalates and venues do not want the hassle including lawsuits from the actions of patrons who are beaten by the venues agents. The other thing and as an ex bouncer I am sure you know this is that if and when it ever comes down to the need to use physical force to deal with a situation it is never a fight or a one on one encounter.

[guy b.]

I am presently a LEO that has worked and continues to work as secondary security for years. Anyone who works security and gets into fights will be out of a job fast. The whole point as security is to not get into fights and to stop violence before it happens or escalates and venues do not want the hassle including lawsuits from the actions of patrons who are beaten by the venues agents. The other thing and as an ex bouncer I am sure you know this is that if and when it ever comes down to the need to use physical force to deal with a situation it is never a fight or a one on one encounter.

Lol at continuing to call him a liar.

[k gledhill]

I am presently a LEO that has worked and continues to work as secondary security for years. Anyone who works security and gets into fights will be out of a job fast. The whole point as security is to not get into fights and to stop violence before it happens or escalates and venues do not want the hassle including lawsuits from the actions of patrons who are beaten by the venues agents. The other thing and as an ex bouncer I am sure you know this is that if and when it ever comes down to the need to use physical force to deal with a situation it is never a fight or a one on one encounter.

I agree, I couldn't begin to tell you how many fights I defused by using neutral impersonal interactions. I am also currently registered as a NYC security.
I was also a firearms instructor in the UK. I have also given demos for federal agencies.

[tc101]

Lol at continuing to call him a liar.

Do you swallow it?

Sorry but working as security says next to nothing about fighting skill and I'm saying this as someone who works security. I know guys who have worked security for decades and never had a single fight. That just isn't what you do.

Look he teaches his classes at a well known boxing gym right? Mma fighters train there too right? If he wants to show what a tough guy he is and why else mention his bouncing or fighting then just give someone his smart phone and get in the ring.

[Frost]

Do you swallow it?

Sorry but working as security says next to nothing about fighting skill and I'm saying this as someone who works security. I know guys who have worked security for decades and never had a single fight. That just isn't what you do.

Look he teaches his classes at a well known boxing gym right? Mma fighters train there too right? If he wants to show what a tough guy he is and why else mention his bouncing or fighting then just give someone his smart phone and get in the ring.

that is never going to happen and everyone knows it lol

[k gledhill]

Spit or swallow its your choice : (())
Tc101 London isn't a gun fearing country. I could believe a guy doing security in USA might never fight guys for " decades " because of the gun fear. It's not the same in old blighty ask GH and even Frost will acknowledge the violence in UK.
I have some clips of me with my Bjj/ mma instructor but its not " fighting " just in cage working mount/guard , passing guard, transitions arm bar , triangle , omoplata , simple stuff. We add mma variations but all light contact. Maybe one day a clip will surface. ; )

[tc101]

Spit or swallow its your choice : (())
Tc101 London isn't a gun fearing country. I could believe a guy doing security in USA might never fight guys for " decades " because of the gun fear. It's not the same in old blighty ask GH and even Frost will acknowledge the violence in UK.
I have some clips of me with my Bjj/ mma instructor but its not " fighting " just in cage working mount/guard , passing guard, transitions arm bar , triangle , omoplata , simple stuff. We add mma variations but all light contact. Maybe one day a clip will surface. ; )

I've been to dangerous violent London and even Kabul.

I will offer you friendly advice to stop trying to impress people with being a bouncer and your so called fights. It doesn't impress anyone but has the opposite effect.

If you want to impress people show them don't tell them.

Not needing to impress people is even better.

[KPM]

Spit or swallow its your choice : (())
Tc101 London isn't a gun fearing country. I could believe a guy doing security in USA might never fight guys for " decades " because of the gun fear. It's not the same in old blighty ask GH and even Frost will acknowledge the violence in UK.
I have some clips of me with my Bjj/ mma instructor but its not " fighting " just in cage working mount/guard , passing guard, transitions arm bar , triangle , omoplata , simple stuff. We add mma variations but all light contact. Maybe one day a clip will surface. ; )

But wait. Maybe I'm mistaken. But I could have sworn all your previous comments about the fighting effectiveness where in reference to your Wing Chun, not MMA? :confused: We were talking about seeing youtube clips of Wing Chun being used in a sparring or fighting situation rather than a Chi Sau situation. What does practicing BJJ/MMA have to do with that? What does being a bouncer or security guard have to do with that? Why bring up fighting experience if none of that fighting experience made use of Wing Chun?

[k gledhill]

I've been to dangerous violent London and even Kabul.

I will offer you friendly advice to stop trying to impress people with being a bouncer and your so called fights. It doesn't impress anyone but has the opposite effect.

If you want to impress people show them don't tell them.

Not needing to impress people is even better.

If I ever feel like impressing you I will keep it in mind. ; ) did you see action in either ?
Plus you are taking my statement out of context , no surprises there.

[k gledhill]

But wait. Maybe I'm mistaken. But I could have sworn all your previous comments about the fighting effectiveness where in reference to your Wing Chun, not MMA? :confused: We were talking about seeing youtube clips of Wing Chun being used in a sparring or fighting situation rather than a Chi Sau situation. What does practicing BJJ/MMA have to do with that? What does being a bouncer or security guard have to do with that? Why bring up fighting experience if none of that fighting experience made use of Wing Chun?

You're confused and I'm not going to un'confuse you.

[KPM]

You're confused and I'm not going to un'confuse you.

Ok. So all that talk of fighting experience and London and security and being a bouncer was just irrelevant noise on this thread. Ok then, let's get back to the topic. Why no sparring videos from the PB lineage, since so much emphasis is placed on fighting effectiveness over Chi Sao? Honest question, not a criticism, because I'd really like to see it.

[k gledhill]

Ok. So all that talk of fighting experience and London and security and being a bouncer was just irrelevant noise on this thread. Ok then, let's get back to the topic. Why no sparring videos from the PB lineage, since so much emphasis is placed on fighting effectiveness over Chi Sao? Honest question, not a criticism, because I'd really like to see it.

Someone asked.

[guy b.]

Lol at the continued attempts to get to the truth.

Where I currently live in UK there is a guy works in one of the bars that is knocking people out every weekend. He has a reputation as a local hardman and people go and start trouble with him. This is not unusual in uk and particularly common in lower level bouncing and club security. It is becoming more a thing of the past but as far as I know Kevin is quite old. Could be true, could be lying, who knows? Fact is that it is ludicrous to suggest his story somehow could not have happened. Look at the various books by Geoff Thompson etc. It is a part of UK culture that you just don't get in US.

It is basically plausible and there is no way to tell one way or the other chatting on a forum. Believe or not, up to you.

[KPM]

Lol at the continued attempts to get to the truth.

Where I currently live in UK there is a guy works in one of the bars that is knocking people out every weekend. He has a reputation as a local hardman and people go and start trouble with him. This is not unusual in uk and particularly common in lower level bouncing and club security. It is becoming more a thing of the past but as far as I know Kevin is quite old. Could be true, could be lying, who knows? Fact is that it is ludicrous to suggest his story somehow could not have happened. Look at the various books by Geoff Thompson etc. It is a part of UK culture that you just don't get in US.

It is basically plausible and there is no way to tell one way or the other chatting on a forum. Believe or not, up to you.


Whether or not Kevin is a "hardman" is irrelevant. But it seems my direct question has been ignored. So yeah, continued attempts to get to the truth (of one of the main points of this thread) still go unanswered.

[guy b.]

Do you swallow it?

Sorry but working as security says next to nothing about fighting skill and I'm saying this as someone who works security. I know guys who have worked security for decades and never had a single fight. That just isn't what you do.

Look he teaches his classes at a well known boxing gym right? Mma fighters train there too right? If he wants to show what a tough guy he is and why else mention his bouncing or fighting then just give someone his smart phone and get in the ring.

I've no idea whether Kevin is telling the truth about his fighting experience. What do I know? He is claiming it though, and you know as much about his claim being true/not true as I do. Which is nothing, apart from Kevin's word on the matter. You can't delve into the facts to ascertain whether he is telling the truth because they aren't available. Take it or leave it, personal decision.

[tc101]

I've no idea whether Kevin is telling the truth about his fighting experience. What do I know? He is claiming it though, and you know as much about his claim being true/not true as I do. Which is nothing, apart from Kevin's word on the matter. You can't delve into the facts to ascertain whether he is telling the truth because they aren't available. Take it or leave it, personal decision.

I do not know about you but I do not accept whatever I hear as being true. I evaluate what I hear with my life experience. As I said I have a lot of experience in security work and I also have a fair amount of experience being around genuine tough guys from the gym to the military to LE. His claims do not jibe with my experience so I find his claims unbelievable.

You are right that we can't delve into the facts and that is exactly the problem with these sorts of claims, they are just empty bragging and prove nothing except that that the person doing it is an empty braggart. Why someone would want to put themself out there like that I do not understand.

[k gledhill]

Lol at the continued attempts to get to the truth.

Where I currently live in UK there is a guy works in one of the bars that is knocking people out every weekend. He has a reputation as a local hardman and people go and start trouble with him. This is not unusual in uk and particularly common in lower level bouncing and club security. It is becoming more a thing of the past but as far as I know Kevin is quite old. Could be true, could be lying, who knows? Fact is that it is ludicrous to suggest his story somehow could not have happened. Look at the various books by Geoff Thompson etc. It is a part of UK culture that you just don't get in US.

It is basically plausible and there is no way to tell one way or the other chatting on a forum. Believe or not, up to you.

Bs ! Guys who work doors in the UK never fight. We all know fighting and alcohol is a myth. Name me one guy who has written memoirs from doing security work excluding Gary Spiers and Geoff Thompson, shameless braggarts !
Fighting is a sign of weakness and if you fight you're going to lose the job you were hired er for ; )
If a manager gets a pint glass in the face its not the bouncers fault , bouncers shouldn't fight or they get fired by the manager if they stop that glass smashing them in the face
If a large group of patrons start calling you a c::t and then one tries to kick you in the bollocks , take it like a man ! Only a guy who wants to lose his job will fight.
Sheesh ; ) bar brawls involving groups of drinkers is something that only happens in the movies, if you go into a bar at a local Chelsea football match you see guys smoking pipes and doing crosswords ! A headbutt is just folklore , who would do such a thing ?
Knives ? Who carries a knife in the UK ? Liars ! The best judge of security in London is a guy from the USA ! ; )
Alcohol and violence is a big lie.
http://youtu.be/VPFuPbm8Akk


: )

[guy b.]

I do not know about you but I do not accept whatever I hear as being true. I evaluate what I hear with my life experience. As I said I have a lot of experience in security work and I also have a fair amount of experience being around genuine tough guys from the gym to the military to LE. His claims do not jibe with my experience so I find his claims unbelievable.

While I don't doubt your (counter)claims regarding security work, I do know that the culture in the UK is significantly different from that of the US in terms of post pub/club brawling and the kinds of things bouncers often engage in. I don't have a clue if Kevin is telling the truth, but I don't think your experience of US security work say much about it, positive or negative.


You are right that we can't delve into the facts and that is exactly the problem with these sorts of claims, they are just empty bragging and prove nothing except that that the person doing it is an empty braggart. Why someone would want to put themself out there like that I do not understand.

I think he was answering someone asking about his experience.

[Frost]

I do not know about you but I do not accept whatever I hear as being true. I evaluate what I hear with my life experience. As I said I have a lot of experience in security work and I also have a fair amount of experience being around genuine tough guys from the gym to the military to LE. His claims do not jibe with my experience so I find his claims unbelievable.

You are right that we can't delve into the facts and that is exactly the problem with these sorts of claims, they are just empty bragging and prove nothing except that that the person doing it is an empty braggart. Why someone would want to put themself out there like that I do not understand.

he could put this all to rest with a few sparring clips against boxers or mma fighters as you say he has easy access to them....but others have asked for these clips before but they never get posted. Shame because such clips would both help show pb,s superior Wing chun and kevins fighting prowess both of which he is at pains to try to tell us about and make us accept as reality ...:)

[guy b.]

he could put this all to rest with a few sparring clips against boxers or mma fighters as you say he has easy access to them....but others have asked for these clips before but they never get posted. Shame because such clips would both help show pb,s superior Wing chun and kevins fighting prowess both of which he is at pains to try to tell us about and make us accept as reality ...:)

If you don't believe it then why worry about it as much as you do? This is not the action of someone that doesn't give a **** about some random person they think is probably a liar. If you do think there might be a grain of truth then by all means go and investigate further.

Kevin can make whatever claims he likes. He isn't obliged to provide anything for you. Similarly you do not have to believe him. I can't understand why there is this constant issue of you expecting people to fall over themselves proving the claims they make on a public forum like you are the world arbiter of wing chun authenticity.

Look, every time you open your mouth I think it is very likely that you are talking ****, but I don't demand that you make endless home movies of yourself training in an attempt to convince me that your nonsense is true. I simply assume you are talking crap 98% of the time, everyone is happy, and the world keeps turning.

[Frost]

If you don't believe it then why worry about it as much as you do? This is not the action of someone that doesn't give a **** about some random person they think is probably a liar. If you do think there might be a grain of truth then by all means go and investigate further.

Kevin can make whatever claims he likes. He isn't obliged to provide anything for you. Similarly you do not have to believe him. I can't understand why there is this constant issue of you expecting people to fall over themselves proving the claims they make on a public forum like you are the world arbiter of wing chun authenticity.

Look, every time you open your mouth I think it is very likely that you are talking ****, but I don't demand that you make endless home movies of yourself training in an attempt to convince me that your nonsense is true. I simply assume you are talking crap 98% of the time, everyone is happy, and the world keeps turning.

If i had made claims about my version of wing chun being superior i would at least expect to have to show something to back it up but i havent made those claims anywhere, But if called on it i would like to think i would be man enough to post clips and not just make claims from behind a pc screen.

I mean this is how is should be you make a statement and if questioned back it up, i have done this when my grappling expereince was questioned, I backed up what i was saying by listing the clubs i have trained at, the fighters i have trained with and when that wasnt enough I posted clips of myself representing those clubs in grappling comps and also clips of myself sparring at those clubs.


Likewise when strength training experience was questioned i was happy to post clips of the powerlifting gym i train at and my results in open raw lifting comps which are easily checked on line. This is how it should be if you make statements and get called on them back things up.

By the way just of interest why do you feel the need to hold kevins hand for him,? actually i have to ask do you have to remove his c*ck from your mouth when you type or do you manage to multi task :)

i dont really care i just find it funny, Kevin is the worst member of this forum when it comes calling other members videos cr*p, other lineages cra*p and making over the top claims (which when you consider the forum we are on is quite an achievement) i just find it funny he has no problem doing this but throws a hissy fit and deletes his threads when others question PBs methods or disagree with him, and simply wont post anything from himself just endless PB demo clips

[guy b.]

If i had made claims about my version of wing chun being superior i would at least expect to have to show something to back it up but i havent made those claims anywhere, But if called on it i would like to think i would be man enough to post clips and not just make claims from behind a pc screen

At least Kevin is enthusiastic about some wing chun. You are negative about all of it and constantly denigrate it in favour of other martial arts. And you have been called on your empty criticisms and you did fail to post clips showing what you would do better. So walk on

[k gledhill]

Lmao at the angry rant from " stalker troll " Frost attacking anyone for not agreeing with him.