Learn Offense 1st

[YouKnowWho]

If you train

- iron palm, you will always hit others.
- iron vest, you will always be hit by others.

It makes sense to learn offense first before to learn defense. When you train knife skill, first you should train how to mug people with your knife. You then learn how to use open hand to deal with your opponent's knife. This way you know exactly where your opponent may come from.

When you train joint locking, you should

- not train how to deal with your opponent's arm hold.
- train how to deal with your opponent's reaction when you hold his arm.

It's a complete different way of thinking. You should 1st put yourself into the following group in order to understand what they may have in their minds.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=mug+people&id=B7E341CB0E0264693FAFF9BEA7E62006C39CBCB6&FORM=IQFRBA

What's your opinion on this?

[jdhowland]

What's your opinion on this?

I completely agree. Kung fu is based on aggression and delivering force, not on defense. I think even beginners should concentrate on offense. A purely defensive strategy only works in movies.

Loved the link, John.

[PalmStriker]

You should be able to deliver in order to defend. :) AGREED.

[Kellen Bassette]

Offense is a better strategy than defense. Just makes sense to begin there...

[RenDaHai]

Disagree.

I don't claim to be very experienced with street fights, but I have fought a bit and I have seen enough.

The vast majority of people cower during combat, not because of fear of being hit, but because of fear of hitting the opponent. Fear of escalating the fight, there is a strong psychological barrier to hitting someone. I have felt it myself before and seen it in many others.

Staring into the face of someone who hates you for no reason, a stranger, someone you have never seen before, then hitting them... its not easy as you all seem to think.

But guarding? Everyone can do that without fear.

If you are a good person you will never want to hurt him as much as he wants to hurt you... from this situation how can you win with offensive tactics? You have more to lose and you want to fight offensively? How?

A good strong defence, one that physically hurts his fists to penetrate... Thats the starting place. We are not teaching soldiers, we are teaching normal law abiding people.

My method? Train defence by getting hit a lot and defending. Never say what punch is coming, really try to hit your opponent, hit in combination. This way, you have trained defence and your partner has trained offense by default, by hitting you.


I am sure most of you disagree with me... But why not post an anecdote about a time when you really physically hurt another person and the consequences of that action, then maybe I can see the value of offense over defence for a civilian.

[YouKnowWho]

when you really physically hurt another person ...
Offense doesn't mean that you have to "physically hurt" your opponent. It may be hard to do for a pure striker though.

What will happen when your opponent attacks you 3 times and you move back 3 times? Will you allow him to attack you the 4th time? Do you want your opponent to use your body as his punching bag, or you don't mind to use your opponent's body as your throwing dummy? If you take your opponent down 3 times without hurting him, he may not want to attack you the 4th time.

What if you have spent a great deal of your training time to counter "single leg", but all your life nobody ever used "single leg" on you?

[YouKnowWho]

I find this interest clip. This is "not" what I'll consider as proper offense. But where to draw that line is not clear. You definitely don't want to wait until your opponent has knocked you out.

Mike Vallely Fights against 4 guys - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyKEeTLb9xw)

[RenDaHai]

What will happen when your opponent attacks you 3 times and you move back 3 times? Will you allow him to attack you the 4th time? Do you want your opponent to use your body as his punching bag, or you don't mind to use your opponent's body as your throwing dummy? If you take your opponent down 3 times without hurting him, he may not want to attack you the 4th time.

Its worked for me in the past. Most of the time there are other options, other ways to win. After 3 defences there may be a chance for escape, your opponent may be disheartened after failing in his attack and then it is time to counter, in public there is a good chance someone will intervene by this point, the opponent may stop trying and may have used up his anger, you have given yourself time to assess the situation and get angry, there may be a second chance to talk him down etc etc.

He is most likely attacking you for a reason, if he fails quickly he may abandon this reason.

Even if you do have to counter, it doesn't need to be as well trained as the defence. If you defended well you will have created an easy opening for an attack even if it is an under trained attack.

If you can take him out without hurting him (i.e Qin na, shuai jiao) I still consider this defence not offence.

[MightyB]

This is why I like sport.

What's the sense of training for what if's that never happen?

With that being said, the guy with the strongest offense usually wins because they're dictating the pace of the fight and action is always faster than reaction (plus judges score you better if you're the offensive fighter). You do need a good defense, but you can't win using defense only.

Since we're including vids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3y3e1mnbtc

[bawang]

in longfist, in almost every single application you are the attacker and throw the first punch. now think about all these demos u seen at tournaments. yes, they are all fake. mind blowing isn't it

[SPJ]

from street melee to nuclear warfare

yes. we deliver first strike or strikes.

however, we do need to spend time on defense with no less effort.

how to survive first nuclear strikes and counter attack or take shots from fists and legs

why DOD or department of defense

spent so much money on anti ballistic missile system or ABM

DOD thinks, too.

should not we ?

First strike

http://youtu.be/jlPEBROvR9w

http://youtu.be/l6W6WqQkM_0

ABM

http://youtu.be/ARx2-wRn9-Y

:)

[jdhowland]

Disagree. ...


Good considerations for civilian self-defense. But, in general, CMA have little to do with self-defense.

[bawang]

Good considerations for civilian self-defense. But, in general, CMA have little to do with self-defense.

you have to excuse ren da hai, he lived in china as tourist for too long. he forgot the power of angry chocolate men.

[YouKnowWho]

you have to excuse ren da hai, he lived in china as tourist for too long. he forgot the power of angry chocolate men.

China is the safest place to live for a foreigner. My American friend dropped her walet in a Taxi in Beijing. The police got it back within 24 hours (there is no way that we can reach to this kind of efficiency in US). I talked to that police and he told me that if a Chinese steals anything from a foreigner, that Chinese will be put in prison the same class as a "murder" would be treated.

[bawang]

China is the safest place to live for a foreigner. My American friend dropped her walet in a Taxi in Beijing. The police got it back within 24 hours (there is no way that we can reach to this kind of efficiency in US). I talked to that police and he told me that if a Chinese steals anything from a foreigner, that Chinese will be put in prison the same class as a "murder" would be treated.

among the chocolate men, there is a saying "your resistance only makes my penus harder".

[Kellen Bassette]

in longfist, in almost every single application you are the attacker and throw the first punch. now think about all these demos u seen at tournaments. yes, they are all fake. mind blowing isn't it

My mind is blown. :eek:

[Punch.HeadButt]

I remember seeing it included in some skater video (I think) years ago. It's important to note that it was some dude twice the size of anyone in the group he was attacking starting sh!t because one of them called him a "skaterf@g". None of them had any desire or intention of fighting, so it was like blowing out candles for the dude that got amped. If you see the whole video, it includes commentary from the friends of the guy that started swinging, and they're laughing saying something along the lines of "all of a sudden, he takes his shirt off and goes nuts!"

Not that those kids didn't have it coming, mind you....you shout insults at a guy twice your size, you buys your ticket and you takes your chances :rolleyes: Anyway, the point being it doesn't always turn out like that if you throw the first punch against a group of four.

That being said, I agree with offense>defense. Best to be the one setting the pace. To trust that you'll be able to sit there and defend indefinitely or until someone else breaks it up is a level of optimism that really has no place in a fight.

[YouKnowWho]

I believe most people train how to punch first before they train how to block. How do you know how to defense againt a "flying knee" if you don't even know what a "flying knee" suppose to look like? When you train with your partner, your partner has to know how to do a "flying knee" on you so you can train how to counter it. To be fair, if your opponent lets you to train your counter skill, you have to also let him to train the same counter skill. That mean you need to be able to perform "flying knee" as well.

How can you teach how to counter BJJ if you don't even know what BJJ is?

[RenDaHai]

I believe most people train how to punch first before they train how to block. How do you know how to defense againt a "flying knee" if you don't even know what a "flying knee" suppose to look like?....

How can you teach how to counter BJJ if you don't even know what BJJ is?

I know hundreds of moves most people have never seen before, Should you learn thousands of special counters, one for every move? No, it is too complicated. You know where your vital points are, these must be covered. First learn to shield so it hurts the opponent to hit you, like wearing spiked armour. After blocking, counters are very natural and easy.

Of course it will be difficult to defend against special styles, like BJJ. But you have to prioritise at the beginning. Cover vital points, strike with 7 weapons, use tooth and nail when desperate.

[YouKnowWho]

Should you learn thousands of special counters, ....

What you are saying is true for the striking art. For the grappling art, it's much more complicate to talk about counter.

In

- striking art, you have no limitation in your mobility. You can move anyway you want to get away from that 1 point contact.
- grappling art, your mobility is limited. Your body is controlled by 3 contact points. You can only move within your limitation.

[RenDaHai]

What you are saying is true for the striking art. For the grappling art, it's much more complicate to talk about counter.

In

- striking art, you have no limitation in your mobility. You can move anyway you want to get away from that 1 point contact.
- grappling art, your mobility is limited. Your body is controlled by 3 contact points. You can only move within your limitation.

This is true, but the grappling art is less of a danger to a civilian.

Why? If you are a mugger, why would you risk grappling with me? It takes too long. Someone will intervene, especially if you are the bad guy.

When two people fight with each other over pride then often they will grapple. But this type of fight is avoidable. When people fight because a predator attacks his prey it is unavoidable. In this fight the predator will not rush to grapple you, why would they? It is too dangerous for them. They will want to strike at you.

Grappling is more defensive, it is the art you should learn yourself, to defend with, not so much to defend against. Of course we all need to be wary of a ground and pound but extended grappling works in the good guys favour, because it buys time and society will be on your side.

So if grappling itself is defensive, why do we need to defend against it often? Only if we intend to attack someone. This happens if you are a bad person, or if you fight in a match, either way not as much of a problem for a civilian.

I am all for practicing defending against grappling, but for a beginner I think defending against strikes is the number one priority.

[mickey]

Greetings,


"but the grappling art is less of a danger to a civilian"

1001% UNTRUE.

Do you think that the women who got raped were boxed into submission?


mickey

[sanjuro_ronin]

Best defense is a good offence.
What does that mean?
Simple:
The opponent can't beat you when he is too busy trying to survive.
Offense means controlling the fight, it means ACTING and not REACTING.

[Shaolin]

What's your opinion on this?

Strike first, strike hard, no mercy, sir!

[Lucas]

"You can ensure the safety of your defense if you only hold positions that cannot be attacked. "

"Numerical weakness comes from having to prepare against possible attacks; numerical strength, from compelling our adversary to make these preparations against us."

Sūn Wǔ


Harken, friends.

[MightyB]

Strike first, strike hard, no mercy, sir!

http://www.twhsmedia.com/TWHSMedia/FAttackingZone/Images/Glitchers/SweepLegTN.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

Old Chinese saying said, "出手见红(Chu Shou Jean Hong) - you have to see something red if you decide to fight".

- It's better to kill than to be killed.
- It's better to hurt others than to be hurt.
- A good enemy is a dead enemy.
- If you don't want to get punched, punch back.
- If you just play defense, even a 10 years old kid can hit you soon or later.
- To allow your body to be used as someone's punching bag is dis-respect to your parent who gave your body. :D

[SPJ]

This is a discussion since the beginning of people on the planet earth.

There is an old story.

The weapon merchant said he has the best spear (offense) for sale.

He also said that he sells the best shield (defense).

What if he used his best spear against his best shield ?

Mao (spear) and Dun (shield).

Offense first

Defense first

Or a bit of both first.

My point is that we always have to consider offense and defense of our moves at the same time.

It is like yin and yang.

We may not consider one over the other.

We consider and practice both at the same time.

:)

[RenDaHai]

Greetings,


"but the grappling art is less of a danger to a civilian"

1001% UNTRUE.

Do you think that the women who got raped were boxed into submission?


mickey

That is indeed true. I think there are specialist classes for rape defence. I don't know about that and wouldn't try to teach it.

[RenDaHai]

Best defense is a good offence.


This is often bandied about. It applies in a situation where the only way to win is to destroy the opponent. Then it is logical. However this is very rarely the situation we are faced with and so it is not a good maxim.

@SPJ,

I agree, they should be yin and yang and together.

@Everyone,

I am not saying no offense, no counter. I am saying you don't need to be taught how to hurt someone, that is natural and easy. Just follow your instincts. You DO need to be taught how to defend well.

Of course you should counter attack, but in terms of OP, what we learn first, that should be defence.

Most people have a psychological barrier to hitting someone. No one has a barrier to raising their hands to block.

Think back to the last time someone hit you... Was your first reaction to hit them back or to put your hands up and asess the situation? I think a lot of people are in the second category, if you are, then learn defence first. If you are the good guy, you are not going to throw the first punch. So it makes sense to learn defence first.


Teach what is teachable, the rest is wasting time.