What's better for martial arts?

[MightyB]

Moderate weights with a high number of reps, or high weights with low number of reps?

[bawang]

speed strength and speed endurance

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is not and has never been an either/or situation.
Depending on what you are working to improve, that is what you focus on.
If you are at the stage were you want to develop strength, then high weights and low reps.
Developing muscle mass - moderate weight and moderate reps.
Working on muscular endurance - light weight and high reps.

Different types of strength development require different protocols.

The thing is that ALL must be done to develop the different types of strength.
Neglecting ANY is wrong.

[MightyB]

Lately I've been in love with resistance bands. I'll burn out as many reps as I can with curls and such, then I'll put them around my back to do shadow boxing and push ups, then I'll hook them to a door to do kazushi drills. They're just great IMO, but I wouldn't mind hitting the weights again.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Lately I've been in love with resistance bands. I'll burn out as many reps as I can with curls and such, then I'll put them around my back to do shadow boxing and push ups, then I'll hook them to a door to do kazushi drills. They're just great IMO, but I wouldn't mind hitting the weights again.

Bands allow for resistance over a range of motion that is outside the ability of DB to provide, that said, the amount of resistence is not really the best "curve" possible for building strength ( fine for endurance though).
The bands have the most resistance at their most stretched, so you must either START to move with them at THAT point or you will not get full range of motion resistance through the whole move.

[SteveLau]

About a month ago, I read the autobiography by Arnold Schwarnegger. I was much motivated to beef up my fitness training. So right after reading the book, I read another book by him - New Encyclopedia of Body Building, in order to get the detail methods. Fitness training has always been my secondary physical exercise, since MA is my primary one. That is why I have not put much effort into it. Even I have not got improvement out of it for years. But after just three sessions, I could see noticeably improvement in the shape of my chest and my biceps. These are the two muscle groups that I am not satisfied with their shape and performance. So what have I changed? I have increased the weight of some exercises, to 80% of my maximum.

Back to the original question of the thread, IMHO, doing moderate weights with a high number of reps is better for martial arts. Our performance is always more important our look. And for martial arts, agility is most important, next is endurance, and last is strength. Though all three attributes are important.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[YouKnowWho]

Try to be the master of the weight and not the slave of it. For MA, you have to enjoy your weight and not hate it.

[Frost]

Most people are weak as hell and need to work max strength first as it is the cornerstone of both explosive strength and strength endurance



And if we look at most MA classes people get enough endurance work and never really touch getting stronger inside class so it makes sense to work on that which your class does not cover

[Empty_Cup]

Most people are weak as hell and need to work max strength first as it is the cornerstone of both explosive strength and strength endurance



And if we look at most MA classes people get enough endurance work and never really touch getting stronger inside class so it makes sense to work on that which your class does not cover

What's the best way to increase strength without adding bulk?

[Frost]

What's the best way to increase strength without adding bulk?

lifting weights without eating a lot of food :)

lift heavy, 80% or above of your 1 rep, keep the sets short 5 reps or so,

so squat ,deadlift bench and pull up, each for 5 sets of 5, two warm up sets then 3 sets with the same working weight

And push away from the dinner table

[Oso]

lifting weights without eating a lot of food :)

lift heavy, 80% or above of your 1 rep, keep the sets short 5 reps or so,

so squat ,deadlift bench and pull up, each for 5 sets of 5, two warm up sets then 3 sets with the same working weight

And push away from the dinner table

it really is simpler than you think. :)

[Frost]

it really is simpler than you think. :)

yep :) I was talking to one of the guys in our gym who has been a world record holder in 3 weight catagories and held titles for 40 years. I asked how to get my deadlift up as it was not going anywhere (I was hoping for a secret assistance exercise or a secret programme) he just looked at and said just deadlift more....

[YouKnowWho]

After I became a vegetarian, no matter how much weight that I worked with, my muscle size no longer increased. Ancient Chinese believed meat can build muscle. It may have some truth in it.

[Frost]

After I became a vegetarian, no matter how much weight that I worked with, my muscle size no longer increased. Ancient Chinese believed meat can build muscle. It may have some truth in it.

reg park was a lifelong vegetarian :)

[wenshu]

After I became a vegetarian, no matter how much weight that I worked with, my muscle size no longer increased. Ancient Chinese believed meat can build muscle. It may have some truth in it.

You need to eat more.

[bawang]

After I became a vegetarian, no matter how much weight that I worked with, my muscle size no longer increased. Ancient Chinese believed meat can build muscle. It may have some truth in it.

ancient times you eat meat only once a month. but you eat lots of tofu. and don't wash your rice. the "murky" rice water is all protein.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What needs to be made clear is this:
Body building type strength training is only ONE strength protocol and it happens to build muscle mass AND strength WITH proper eating ( you can't get big unless you eat to get bigger, period).
People that are concerned ( for whatever reason) about "bulking up" need only to NOT eat more and to either keep the weights heavy and reps low like Frost said ( this will make you stronger and NOT bulky) OR if they want to focus on muscular endurance ( which for a MA I think is not needed since we already do quite a bit of muscular endurance work as it is), keep the weights low and reps high.

Honestly, I don't really understand when people say they don't want to get too bulky or muscular because:
If you are already bulky (FAT) then at least you will be good bulky ( muscle and not fat).
If you are thin, then you put on lean muscle mass and LOOK better and will be STRONGER and did I mention, look better?

:eek:

[sanjuro_ronin]

FYI:
VERY FEW people need to "worry" about getting "too big" like pro bodybuilders because for the vast MAJORITY of the population, it just won't happen.

And NO, your buddies telling you that you are "packing on the muscle" doesn't count cause that is just them blowing sunshine up your ass.

[Kymus]

After I became a vegetarian, no matter how much weight that I worked with, my muscle size no longer increased. Ancient Chinese believed meat can build muscle. It may have some truth in it.

You Don't Want to Gain Muscle? Then You'd Better Avoid Animal Protein. (http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2011/06/you-dont-want-to-gain-muscle-then-youd.html)

You can gain muscle as a vegetarian, but I think it may be more difficult.

[David Jamieson]

muscle mass has more to do with potential strength than applied functional strength.

this is a big reason why use of weights in martial arts training follows a functional strength model instead of body building which is directed more at beautification of the human form.

Not that body builders aren't strong, of course they are! But functional fighting strength? That is something that has to be worked at. I will be the first one to tell you that if a body builder took it upon themselves to switch to functional strength development, then they'll get there faster as they already have the huge head start.

[Vash]

What's 'functional?'

[YouKnowWho]

What's 'functional?'

This is an example for "functional" strength.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwSS8FmgJ3c

[Vash]

This is an example for "functional" strength.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwSS8FmgJ3c

I like that.

[Kellen Bassette]

Honestly, I don't really understand when people say they don't want to get too bulky or muscular


To avoid moving up a weight class.

[bawang]

To avoid moving up a weight class.

i didt know form competition had weight classes

[JamesC]

yep :) I was talking to one of the guys in our gym who has been a world record holder in 3 weight catagories and held titles for 40 years. I asked how to get my deadlift up as it was not going anywhere (I was hoping for a secret assistance exercise or a secret programme) he just looked at and said just deadlift more....

There are a lot of powerlifters these days that only deadlift a couple times a month. Some people respond better to lower frequency. I'd like to know why that is. If I'm not mistaken Eric Lilliebridge does it this way.

Personally, I respond better to higher frequency. Then again, I'm just now able to deadlift regularly again.

[Frost]

There are a lot of powerlifters these days that only deadlift a couple times a month. Some people respond better to lower frequency. I'd like to know why that is. If I'm not mistaken Eric Lilliebridge does it this way.

Personally, I respond better to higher frequency. Then again, I'm just now able to deadlift regularly again.

if you are box squatting alot you are using the same muscles as you would in a deadlift, plus if you box squat you are a geared lifter and that gear also aids you in deadlifting, if you are a raw squatter box squatting...well why on earth are you doing this?

If you lift raw then raw squats have less of a carry over so you have to the deadlift (more quad less hamstrings and back), and also raw squat sessions are much shorter than geared sessions so you actually have time to deadlift :)

the guy im talking about deadlits heavy three times a week, and at the age of 63 and 90kg pulls between 260-280kg each session

Eric seems to deadlift every week, just one week light and one week heavy, a lot of powerlifters will deadlift once a week, like the greatest of all Ed Coan, others like the Russians will deadlift three times a week, it all depends on your ability to recovery and how heavy you are going.

It also depends on what system, you use, if you follow standard periodization you will only truly be maxing on your deadlift every 8 or 10 weeks so you can deadlift every week every multiple times and not burn out, if you are a westside guy you need to rotate (but why a raw lifter would be following Westside is another question)

[JamesC]

Cool thanks for that response.

And he goes heavy 3x a week? I would die. I bet he makes my diet look like it belongs to a anorexic little girl...

[bawang]

Cool thanks for that response.

And he goes heavy 3x a week? I would die. I bet he makes my diet look like it belongs to a anorexic little girl...

hgh is magic

[Frost]

hgh is magic

you guy in question is lifelong drug free, by that i mean he lifts in drug tested federations and because he is a record holder and title holder he is tested on a regular basis, not to mention he sits on the IPF board

[Frost]

Cool thanks for that response.

And he goes heavy 3x a week? I would die. I bet he makes my diet look like it belongs to a anorexic little girl...

yep heavy three times a week, but
a) he has build up to this level of capacity over decades
b) he listens to his body and whilst goes heavy he doesnt fail many if any lifts
c) he is a freak of nature as all world class athletes are (having said this a lot of the guys lift as he does and we have several british and european record holders)

[bawang]

you guy in question is lifelong drug free, by that i mean he lifts in drug tested federations and because he is a record holder and title holder he is tested on a regular basis, not to mention he sits on the IPF board

r u calling eric lillibridge drug free

LOL

yep heavy three times a week, but
a) he has build up to this level of capacity over decades

eric lilibrdige is 20 yrs old LOL

[MightyB]

you guy in question is lifelong drug free, by that i mean he lifts in drug tested federations and because he is a record holder and title holder he is tested on a regular basis, not to mention he sits on the IPF board

Well... Lance Armstrong passed all of his drug tests. ;)

[Frost]

r u calling eric lillibridge drug free

LOL


eric lilibrdige is 20 yrs old LOL

JamesC was responding to me and i was talking not about eric but about the guy i train with :)

sorry for any confusion

[Frost]

Well... Lance Armstrong passed all of his drug tests. ;)

true but lances team mates knew exactly what he was up to :)

Im on this guys team and i know he is drug free from personal expereince :)

[bawang]

true but lances team mates knew exactly what he was up to :)

Im on this guys team and i know he is drug free from personal expereince :)

how does he go heavy 3 times a week and b drug free mang

even westside don't do that much

[David Jamieson]

If you are competing for dollars you are using PEDs.

period.

No drug free assoc will produce people that will outdo PED using assocs.

This is why competition at that level has become tainted.
Not that it doesn't still take effort, because yeah, it does, but it's a perception thing.
People don't respect athletes that use drugs to get where they are and that is why PEDs are downplayed, not mentioned etc etc.

It's too bad.

[JamesC]

yep heavy three times a week, but
a) he has build up to this level of capacity over decades
b) he listens to his body and whilst goes heavy he doesnt fail many if any lifts
c) he is a freak of nature as all world class athletes are (having said this a lot of the guys lift as he does and we have several british and european record holders)

Yeah I watched an interview with Ed Coan, Marty Gallagher, and Rippetoe where they talked about how Ed never failed lifts, even in training. That's not fair lol

[sanjuro_ronin]

To avoid moving up a weight class.

Pussies....:cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

As with most things, you need to "ignore" the top 5% and bottom 5% and focus on what works for the majority UNTIL, as you train and find out for yourself what works best for you.

[Frost]

how does he go heavy 3 times a week and b drug free mang

even westside don't do that much

its not hard and he isnt the only one to do this, a lot of raw or single ply lifters lift like this, especially if they follow a normal periodization model where you are only lifting above 90% a few sessions every other month, westside is not a good method for drug free raw or single ply lifters
but to answer your question
1) he has built up to this capacity over decades, he started out before powerlifting was a sport
2) heavy doesnt mean max effort, it means heavy
3) linear periodisation works and allows you to train the lifts multiple times a week if you want to
4) He listens to his body and changes how he trains accordingly
5) he does a lot of low volume work, singles etc because he can recovery quicker from them

[Frost]

If you are competing for dollars you are using PEDs.

period.

No drug free assoc will produce people that will outdo PED using assocs.

This is why competition at that level has become tainted.
Not that it doesn't still take effort, because yeah, it does, but it's a perception thing.
People don't respect athletes that use drugs to get where they are and that is why PEDs are downplayed, not mentioned etc etc.

It's too bad.

Umm ok

firstly outside of a handful of geared meets their is no money in powerlifting especially raw or single ply like in the IPF: it costs these guys money to compete at the international level soemthimes it costs them thousands in travel and lost work time
secondly thats why there are different federations with different testing protocols and why records stand with different federations and arent across the board: precisely to allow drug free lifters to compete against each other and NOT against peds users, now does this mean their arent cheats? no of course not, but it means certain federations are more likely to be drug free than other
thirdly making sweeping statements about a sport you know nothing about is silly, i know this masters 3 world record holder personally and i know he doesnt take anything illegal, just as i know the 5 other British and commonwealth champions in our gym are drug free so i personally know guys at the top of the sport in the IPF who are drug free

anyway back to the sensible discussion

[bawang]

its not hard and he isnt the only one to do this, a lot of raw or single ply lifters lift like this, especially if they follow a normal periodization model where you are only lifting above 90% a few sessions every other month, westside is not a good method for drug free raw or single ply lifters
but to answer your question
1) he has built up to this capacity over decades, he started out before powerlifting was a sport
2) heavy doesnt mean max effort, it means heavy
3) linear periodisation works and allows you to train the lifts multiple times a week if you want to
4) He listens to his body and changes how he trains accordingly
5) he does a lot of low volume work, singles etc because he can recovery quicker from them

ok man thx, that explains a lot. I thot he was maxing out 3 x a week lolwtf


im also pretty sad about westside barbell. they make themselves sound so badass, I really wish I could train like them. I still like their idea of the soviet conjugate system, I do reps one day and speed one day.

[Oso]

reg park was a lifelong vegetarian :)

Bill Pearl was ovo-lactarian...no meat but cheese and eggs. his book 'Getting Strong' was the first thing I ever read about the subject

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Pearl

[Scott R. Brown]

Bill Pearl was ovo-lactarian...no meat but cheese and eggs. his book 'Getting Strong' was the first thing I ever read about the subject

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Pearl

I have an autographed copy. He is a VERY open and nice guy!

[lance]

Moderate weights with a high number of reps, or high weights with low number of reps? MightyB Moderate weights with a higher number of reps , this is the reason why ? I would rather build myself up rather than to hurt myself . I would do moderate weight training with higher number of reps until it no longer becomes a challenge for me , then I would do higher weights with low reps .

This is what I really do myself , regardless if it ' s upper body work out or lower body workout . This can be applied to dumbells , kettlebells , or weight machines .
Hold the weight for as long as you can , then go move to another excercise of your choice . Depending on how long you can hold the weight in one excercise that ' s how much reps you ' re really doing as if you doing 1 - excercise repetively . So for example if you can hold the weight in 1 - excercise for 5 seconds , it ' s like doing 5 reps of 1 - excercise . That way you can get results faster . So the longer you hold it , the power strenght you build in yourself . But it ' s really up to you to experiment with this method , it ' s the shaolin way of weight training excercise . You can laugh at it , but to me it ' s true .

[Pierce]

A workout with moderate weight is better for the physical fitness and overall health.
A high weight workout may be harmful for the health and body structure.
Do some abs and cardio workouts along with weight workout for the better muscular health and physical fitness.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A workout with moderate weight is better for the physical fitness and overall health.
A high weight workout may be harmful for the health and body structure.
Do some abs and cardio workouts along with weight workout for the better muscular health and physical fitness.

Define moderate?

[MightyB]

Define moderate?

I'd say around 70% of your max.

---

in all reality, I just do a sh*t ton of push up variations, standing squats, burpees, tension bands and other body weight stuff 'cuz I'm not a member of any gym and I only do this stuff to look good nekid.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'd say around 70% of your max.

---

in all reality, I just do a sh*t ton of push up variations, standing squats, burpees, tension bands and other body weight stuff 'cuz I'm not a member of any gym and I only do this stuff to look good nekid.

That is 1/4 of the equation.
reps? sets? frequency?