Create your own form

[YouKnowWho]

Why do you want to creat your own forms?

If you have 100 favor combo drills, it's pretty hard to remember and number it from #1 to #100. If you create 3 or 4 forms to cover all your favor moves. It will be easier to "remember" for yourself. Of course you don't need to train your form. It just serve as a text book. You keep it. Open it when you need.

Here is what I have found the easiest way to do it.

1. Put all 100 combos on in .doc format on your computer.
2. Identify those combo that the last move can make you to turn 180 degree. Mart it as T.
3. group every 4 combos together with the T combo as the 4th combo (you can call this 1 road).
4. You can construct your forms by 4 roads (16 combos), 6 roads (24 combos), 8 roads (32 combos), ...

Any comments?

[BlackEChan]

Are you asking us to create our own form?!

[YouKnowWho]

Are you asking us to create our own form?!

If it's not now, may be 30 years from today. How will you do it if you want to?

Assume you

- only have limit space.
- have to come back to the same spot and facing to the same direction.

[-N-]

Why do you want to creat your own forms?

If you have 100 favor combo drills, it's pretty hard to remember and number it from #1 to #100. If you create 3 or 4 forms to cover all your favor moves. It will be easier to "remember" for yourself. Of course you don't need to train your form. It just serve as a text book. You keep it. Open it when you need.

Here is what I have found the easiest way to do it.

1. Put all 100 combos on in .doc format on your computer.
2. Identify those combo that the last move can make you to turn 180 degree. Mart it as T.
3. group every 4 combos together with the T combo as the 4th combo (you can call this 1 road).
4. You can construct your forms by 4 roads (16 combos), 6 roads (24 combos), 8 roads (32 combos), ...

Any comments?

This approach is technique based and doesn't specifically address strategy.

If you organize the roads to document application variations under different situations and context, the form will have depth of meaning. But then most will not appreciate it.

[YouKnowWho]

This approach is technique based and doesn't specifically address strategy.

If you organize the roads to document application variations under different situations and context, the form will have depth of meaning. But then most will not appreciate it.

I think this approach can be more strategy than technique. If you use

- kick, parry, punch,
- kick, punch, grab, punch,
- grab, grab, wrap,
- grab, pull, spin,
- ...

as the initial moves of your combos, you have already considerd "entering strategy" as part of your form. If your entering strategy can be applied in many combos, you may not want to include it in all those combos but just one. If your "finish move" involve ground game, It may be challenged to include those in the form.

So my definition of combo is "entering strategy + finish strategy" that you can use it to end a fight if needed.

[BlackEChan]

Hmm... I would probably start with dynamic tension, and then follow with simple techniques. I find these the most useful when it comes to forms, because they are more open to application than flashy combos, making the form/encyclopedia contain even richer movements, with more uses.
These would be done in place, or with little stance shifting.

Then to continue, a few techniques that make you move more than the ones before. These would help strengthen your foundation and stances.

The last part would contain the techniques that focus on close distance application as well as grappling and joint manipulation. Although the entire form is done on your feet, these last few combinations are meant to be used only for close frame combat and escapes for when you are in a bind on the ground.


I don't know if I'd ever make such a form, but it's just an idea, a creative display of what I would do if I had to create one:).

[YouKnowWho]

Most

- longfist forms have "training method" in it.
- praying mantis forms only have "combat application" in it.

This is why the longfist system is more abstract than the praying mantis system.

[Kymus]

Most

- longfist forms have "training method" in it.
- praying mantis forms only have "combat application" in it.

This is why the longfist system is more abstract than the praying mantis system.

I find this very interesting, could you please elaborate?

[YouKnowWho]

I find this very interesting, could you please elaborate?
If you look at this longfist form. At the begining 0.05 - 0.14, he held his back arm straight back when he punched. His back arm served no combat purpose but to "train" how to align body as a straight line when punch. This kind of abstraction doesn't exist in the praying mantis system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt83nvRwq-4

[Kymus]

If you look at this longfist form. At the begining 0.05 - 0.14, he held his back arm straight back when he punch. His back arm served no combat purpose but to "train" how to align body as a straight line when you punch. This kind of abstraction doesn't exist in the praying mantis system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt83nvRwq-4

Interesting! Is this why longfist is considered a good foundation art?

[Yum Cha]

Not sure how your style works John, do you have forms in your standard system? How many if I may ask? My Pak Mei has about 10.

The first question should be, why new forms?
- do they add something (like an academic thesis) to the style?
- what lesson does the form introduce, or what new physical capability does it train?

"Training exercises" of your own design, short or long, I think are different. Combining existing content into different patterns - is that a new form?

I think a proliferation of forms isn't good for a style, as it dilutes the 'lessons' and supports the 'form collector' misunderstanding that more forms make a better martial artist.

That being said, we all develop our own personal combinations, and its fun to trade, share and test them out, with the best ones getting adopted.

[YouKnowWho]

Interesting! Is this why longfist is considered a good foundation art?

The longfist system includes "training" only in their beginner forms. In the intermediate level or advance lavel, both longfist from and praying mantis form are very similiar. Since a beginner will need those training, longfist will be a good system to start.

[Yum Cha]

Just saw the other clip with the Forms John. :D

[YouKnowWho]

Not sure how your style works John, do you have forms in your standard system? How many if I may ask? My Pak Mei has about 10.

The first question should be, why new forms?
- do they add something (like an academic thesis) to the style?
- what lesson does the form introduce, or what new physical capability does it train?

"Training exercises" of your own design, short or long, I think are different. Combining existing content into different patterns - is that a new form?

I think a proliferation of forms isn't good for a style, as it dilutes the 'lessons' and supports the 'form collector' misunderstanding that more forms make a better martial artist.

That being said, we all develop our own personal combinations, and its fun to trade, share and test them out, with the best ones getting adopted.
That's a good question to ask. What's the value of those new forms?

In my longfist system if weapon forms are included, it includes more that 30 forms.

I like to create a from that has no style boundary. It's not a form for longfist, praying mantis, Baji, Zimen, ... but a form for "combat". I like to integrate kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game into my form that not many longfist, praying mantis, Baji, Zimen, ... form have that. For example, here is a combo that I like to include into my form.

- roundhouse kick,
- hook punch,
- under hook,
- inner hook,
- leg block,
- outer leg twist.

Since this combo doesn't exist in any of those forms that I have learned (I have learned more than 50 forms), I have no choice but to create it myself.

In other words, instead of trying to train and remember those 50 forms that I have learned in my life, I just want to condense into 3 forms that I created. That's a lot of easier for me to remember. I may never want to teach those forms to anybody. This way I won't add any "burden" to the future generation.

[Yum Cha]

That's a good question to ask. What's the value of those new forms?

In my longfist system if weapon forms are included, it includes more that 30 forms.

I like to create a from that has no style boundary. It's not a form for longfist, praying mantis, Baji, Zimen, ... but a form for "combat". I like to integrate kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game into my form that not many longfist, praying mantis, Baji, Zimen, ... form have that. For example, here is a combo that I like to include into my form.

- front kick,
- hook punch,
- under hook,
- inner hook,
- leg block,
- outer leg twist.

Since this combo doesn't exist in those 50 forms that I have learned in my life, I have no choice but to create it myself.

Yea, makes sense. Have you got experience with Northern or Southern Praying Mantis?

[Yum Cha]

That's a good question to ask. What's the value of those new forms?

...

In other words, instead of trying to train and remember those 50 forms that I have learned in my life, I just want to condense into 3 forms that I created. That's a lot of easier for me to remember. I may never want to teach those forms to anybody. This way I won't add any "burden" to the future generation.

After looking at your other thread and the forms, I can see how you could make a good contribution in doing so. I don't believe forms should be all consuming.

[mickey]

Greetings,

It would be of no use to create a form like that without, as -N- suggested, an underlying theory. Having that helps preserve the integrity of a set over time. If not, the form would be subject to change from one generation to the next.

A better way would be to construct a paired combat form. It would better preserve those techniques. Include complementary drills and training methods. Use modern technology to "book" the information on film and print. Then you will have something that will endure as long as there is a need or desire for it.


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

Yea, makes sense. Have you got experience with Northern or Southern Praying Mantis?

I have crossed trained the northern PM but I know nothing about the southern PM. Most of the styles that I have cross trained are northern except WC and Zimen.


to construct a paired combat form.

All my combos came from partner drills. I first map 2 men drills into solo drills (with some exaggration). I then map solo drills into forms.

Many years ago I tried to create a longfist summary form so I can only pritice 1 longfist form and not all longfist forms. Before that I had created a SC form that only contain throwing skill. Today, I like to mix striking art and throwing art into one form. I don't know what I will think 20 years from now.

[Kymus]

The longfist system includes "training" only in their beginner forms. In the intermediate level or advance lavel, both longfist from and praying mantis form are very similiar. Since a beginner will need those training, longfist will be a good system to start.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing!

[YouKnowWho]

If you organize the roads to document application variations under different situations and context, the form will have depth of meaning. But then most will not appreciate it.
For simplicity, all my combos are "I attack first". I don't like to think "If you do .... I'll do ...". Instead, I like to think, "When I do ..., if you respond ..., I'll do ...". It may be similiar but "I'll do ..." is a much smaller set to consider if I attack first.

[Yum Cha]

For simplicity, all my combos are "I attack first". I don't like to think "If you do .... I'll do ...". Instead, I like to think, "When I do ..., if you respond ..., I'll do ...". It may be similiar but "I'll do ..." is a much smaller set to consider if I attack first.

Penetration and application.

[-N-]

For simplicity, all my combos are "I attack first". I don't like to think "If you do .... I'll do ...". Instead, I like to think, "When I do ..., if you respond ..., I'll do ...". It may be similiar but "I'll do ..." is a much smaller set to consider if I attack first.

Even when atacking first, there are different situations whether you or the other person creates them.

You can use direct or indirect method. You might emphasize speed, or you might choose to focus on power methods. You can emphasize control and sensitivity for subtle entry and takedown. Or you might use more boxing type hit and run methods to confuse and set up a take down. Even when you initiate, your combinations will change depending on the skills, preferences, and attributes of the other person. He may be flinchy, or he may be as aggressive as you and prefer close range. He may be bigger or stronger. He may prefer to punch, or kick, or grapple. He may be good at redirecting your attacks. You might want to set up a pivoting or circular attack vs. a linear. One time you talked about chasing hands. Maybe you want to use that, but you also might have methods that control or prevent the need to chase hands.

My focus is not forms, but if you are going to do them, you can use them to document all the variations of how you apply your system theory. More to things than just "Hulk smash..."

[-N-]

The longfist system includes "training" only in their beginner forms. In the intermediate level or advance lavel, both longfist from and praying mantis form are very similiar. Since a beginner will need those training, longfist will be a good system to start.

Even hand at the waist, or reverse punch from bow and arrow stance is abstract training method. Just not as extreme as the example with the extended back arm.

[YouKnowWho]

Even hand at the waist, or reverse punch from bow and arrow stance is abstract training method. Just not as extreme as the example with the extended back arm.
Instead of using the word "abstract", I prefer to use the word "exaggerate". All the longfist hand on the waist are grabbing your opponent's arm and pull his body into you.

In the beginning, I just mapped 2 men drills directly into solo drills. When I trained those solo drills, I felt that it was just too easy on my body and there is not enough challenge. I then realized that the "exaggeration" will be needed. For example, when I train this move,

http://imageshack.us/a/img201/3762/johnleglift.jpg

if I have to use my right hand to touch my standing left leg ankle, I'll force myself to stretch my body more and harder for me to maintain balance.

[YouKnowWho]

Even when atacking first, there are different situations whether you or the other person creates them.

You can use direct or indirect method. You might emphasize speed, or you might choose to focus on power methods. You can emphasize control and sensitivity for subtle entry and takedown. Or you might use more boxing type hit and run methods to confuse and set up a take down. Even when you initiate, your combinations will change depending on the skills, preferences, and attributes of the other person. He may be flinchy, or he may be as aggressive as you and prefer close range. He may be bigger or stronger. He may prefer to punch, or kick, or grapple. He may be good at redirecting your attacks. You might want to set up a pivoting or circular attack vs. a linear. One time you talked about chasing hands. Maybe you want to use that, but you also might have methods that control or prevent the need to chase hands.

My focus is not forms, but if you are going to do them, you can use them to document all the variations of how you apply your system theory. More to things than just "Hulk smash..."

You are right! There are a lot of information that will be worthwhile to record. So far I have recorded how to deal with:

- MT clinch,
- wrestling leg shooting,
- boxing jab, cross combo,
- MT roundhouse kick,
- ...

My goal is trying to cover as much areas as I can. It's a task that only has the starting point. There will be no ending point.

My focus is not form either. To cover all those information that you have mentioned is an interest and challenged task.

[-N-]

I then realized that the "exaggeration" will be needed. For example, when I train this move,

http://imageshack.us/a/img201/3762/johnleglift.jpg

if I have to use my right hand to touch my standing left leg ankle, I'll force myself to stretch my body more and harder for me to maintain balance.

Yep. A lot of people don't appreciate the benefit of deliberately exaggerated motion as a training method. They just criticise TCMA and say it is not practical.

[-N-]

My focus is not form either. To cover all those information that you have mentioned is an interest and challenged task.

It's funny that two "not forms" guys talk about forms theory, and some forms guys don't even consider that.

[Kellen Bassette]

It's funny that two "not forms" guys talk about forms theory, and some forms guys don't even consider that.

Because those interested in combat aspects will entertain anything of value. For hobby form collectors I think it's mostly about aesthetics.

[dcrjradmonish]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1237156]Why do you want to creat your own forms?

If you have 100 favor combo drills, it's pretty hard to remember and number it from #1 to #100. If you create 3 or 4 forms to cover all your favor moves. It will be easier to "remember" for yourself. Of course you don't need to train your form. It just serve as a text book. You keep it. Open it when you need.

Here is what I have found the easiest way to do it.

1. Put all 100 combos on in .doc format on your computer.
2. Identify those combo that the last move can make you to turn 180 degree. Mart it as T.
3. group every 4 combos together with the T combo as the 4th combo (you can call this 1 road).
4. You can construct your forms by 4 roads (16 combos), 6 roads (24 combos), 8 roads (32 combos), ...


What do you think your favorite 10 combo moves be you would start with combat application wise? Mine would be
1. Front kick, Jab, Cross ( Enter Stage)
2. Round kick, Hook, Uppercut ( Enter Stage)
3. Eye Rake, Elbow, Elbow ( Enter Stage)
4. Hip Throw, Mount, Head butt ( CQ Stage )
5. Hook, Hook, Uppercut ( CQ Stage )
6. Knee, Knee, Knee (CQ Stage)
7. Jab, Jab, Jab ( Exit Stage)
8. Head butt, Head butt, Shove ( Exit Stage)
9. Jab, Cross, Jab ( Exit Stage)
10. Would add some rolls, falls and quick getting up in there also not sure how to format it in a form but would take 1 combo from each stage and string them 9 count series. Also hand shape would change a jab might be a grab a cross be a palm a eye rake might be a wipe or a claw but playing with different shapes with basic movements if that makes sense.

[-N-]

1. Front kick, Jab, Cross ( Enter Stage)
2. Round kick, Hook, Uppercut ( Enter Stage)
3. Eye Rake, Elbow, Elbow ( Enter Stage)


In this sequence, what is the reasoning for following the uppercut with eye rake?

And eye rake with elbow, elbow?

[mawali]

I am shocked that so many people are shocked at being shocked by the term "creating one's own form/style" when that has been the modus operandi of CMA for some time. A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, etc so how do I design something for utility. I see the change(s) from Taizu changquan (most, at least) and some other arts that influenced Chen style, then I see changes in Yang style, then, Wu2 and Wu3, etc so CMA is full of creation of one's own form syndrome synthesized into what is called systems. I see a comprehensive system in shuaijiao that can be incorporated to many style, irrespective of status, and even pajama CMA.

[dcrjradmonish]

In this sequence, what is the reasoning for following the uppercut with eye rake?

And eye rake with elbow, elbow?

Those 3 are all entering stage you listed. I would take one from the entering stage followed bye a close quarter stage then followed bye one from the exiting stage. So a sequence of 9. 3 from each stage if I was going to try to make a form. Sorry I don't know how to quote a whole message so some of it got chopped off.

[bawang]

I am shocked that so many people are shocked at being shocked by the term "creating one's own form/style" when that has been the modus operandi of CMA for some time. A punch is a punch, a kick is a kick, etc so how do I design something for utility. I see the change(s) from Taizu changquan (most, at least) and some other arts that influenced Chen style, then I see changes in Yang style, then, Wu2 and Wu3, etc so CMA is full of creation of one's own form syndrome synthesized into what is called systems. I see a comprehensive system in shuaijiao that can be incorporated to many style, irrespective of status, and even pajama CMA.

in the past every famous fighter would rearrange the techniques and make a new form. CMA has no more new forms because people don't fight.

[YouKnowWho]

What do you think your favorite 10 combo moves be you would start with combat application wise?

I like

- punch only drills,
- kick only drills,
- lock only drills,
- throws only drills,
- mix drills.

This short clip contain 5 "punch only" drills:

- Jab, cross
- Jab, uppercut, hook
- Jab, jab, cross
- Jab, spin back fist, cross
- Jab, cross, uppercut

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyottmoPIYI

[bawang]

wombat combat signature form

eight gate battle

muslim points the way- qinna stance- black dragon enters cave - black dragon enters cave - single whip- black dragon enters cave- black dragon enters cave- black dragon enters cave- black dragon enters cave (cloud hands, seven stars) - black dragon enters cave, black dragon enters cave, black dragon enters cave, black dragon shakes tail - yellow dragon stirs water three times - five flowers sitting on mountain.


fist poem: under heaven no equal, taizu passed on da hongquan. defend top attack bottom, from weak get strong. tiger hug who can defend, black dragon enters cave. yellow dragon stirs the water, who can approach. if he close up tight, steel finger of muslim loosens the way.

[Kymus]

wombat combat signature form

eight gate battle

muslim points the way- qinna stance- black dragon enters cave - black dragon enters cave - single whip- black dragon enters cave- black dragon enters cave- black dragon enters cave- black dragon enters cave (cloud hands, seven stars) - black dragon enters cave, black dragon enters cave, black dragon enters cave, black dragon shakes tail - yellow dragon stirs water three times, wuji stance - salute

That black dragon has some problems. He needs to figure out if he really wants to go in that cave or not.

[bawang]

I think the term might be "muslin"(cloth). :D https://www.google.com/search?q=muslin+cloth&client=firefox-a&hs=dpn&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=tcjQUfSRKarlyQGnioFY&ved=0CGUQsAQ&biw=1440&bih=807

if only you learned the real shaolin.

http://weshouldhavelistenedtotheprophets.com/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/5b7f0_120616101939-egypt-elections-34-horizontal-gallery.jpg

[PalmStriker]

That steel finger, all righty. :D (yikes !).

[Yum Cha]

Black Dragon? Bawang, perhaps a little optimistic?

I'm hearing forms described as a series of moves, combinations, etc. I think that is selling the exquisite forms short.

A good form has combinations, but more, i.e.
- a theme to the movements that lets you ad-lib with the techniques within the theme
- kungs: exercises that develop a flexibility, strength or core skill through repetition, that perhaps don't have a direct martial application, but form the foundations for many.
- physical challenge for strength, breathing and flexibility
- a spirit, a feeling, an essence of a character to manifest.

Some forms are unique, others are just re-hashes of hash to begin with, and as training exercises still have tremendous value, but there can be more.

San Chen is one form that comes to mind, as an example many people might be familiar with.

[Yum Cha]

if only you learned the real shaolin.

http://weshouldhavelistenedtotheprophets.com/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/5b7f0_120616101939-egypt-elections-34-horizontal-gallery.jpg

Ah, the famous, "Monkey searching for ants' technique!

[YouKnowWho]

if only you learned the real shaolin.

http://weshouldhavelistenedtotheprophets.com/wp-content/plugins/rss-poster/cache/5b7f0_120616101939-egypt-elections-34-horizontal-gallery.jpg

Some people may not understand what you are trying to say here. Many Shaolin styles came from outside and one of the main source was the Muslim Chinese such as longfist - Islamic style

[PalmStriker]

Black Dragon? Bawang, perhaps a little optimistic?

I'm hearing forms described as a series of moves, combinations, etc. I think that is selling the exquisite forms short.

A good form has combinations, but more, i.e.
- a theme to the movements that lets you ad-lib with the techniques within the theme
- kungs: exercises that develop a flexibility, strength or core skill through repetition, that perhaps don't have a direct martial application, but form the foundations for many.
- physical challenge for strength, breathing and flexibility
- a spirit, a feeling, an essence of a character to manifest.

Some forms are unique, others are just re-hashes of hash to begin with, and as training exercises still have tremendous value, but there can be more.

San Chen is one form that comes to mind, as an example many people might be familiar with. Well stated. :)

[YouKnowWho]

There will be a longfist brothers reunion coming up next year. Every longfist brother will be requested to demonstrate a longfist solo form. Since I believe that solo form is for teaching and learning only, it should not be for training. To demonstrate a solo form in public will be against my own believe. I decide to link my favor longfist combo and mix SC into it. If I repeat a combo left and right, people can see it's "combo drills" and not "solo form". To still train "solo form" starting from the 1st move to the last move at this point of my age just make no sense to me. I just want audience to understand that one should train "combo drills" and not "forms".

Here is one combo that I intend to include:

- cross,
- wrist grabbing,
- shoulder pulling with foot sweep,
- hook punch with leg spring,
- back fist,
- uppercut,
- hammer fist,
- jab.

In this short combo, all the longfist jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist are all included. Since it also includes SC foot sweep and leg spring, it can indicate that my intention to integrate longfist and SC together. Also the end of this combo can link to the begin of this combo, so it can be repeated as many time as needed.

[-N-]

Here is one combo that I intend to include:

- cross,
- wrist grabbing,
- shoulder pulling with foot sweep,
- hook punch with leg spring,
- back fist,
- uppercut,
- hammer fist,
- jab.

In this short combo, all the longfist jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist are all included. Since it also includes SC foot sweep and leg spring, it can indicate that my intention to integrate longfist and SC together.

How about a video of that sequence?

I keep seeing the transitions from Praying Mantis point of view, but would like to see what you had in mind.

[YouKnowWho]

How about a video of that sequence?

I keep seeing the transitions from Praying Mantis point of view, but would like to see what you had in mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au7Il5gkqZQ&feature=youtu.be

[David Jamieson]

I don't see value in creating forms.
You either understand what you have and are able to apply it or not.
I don't even think a set is required to learn and rather it is a traditional thing of keeping a style conformed.

But, it's not like that doesn't fall apart too. What with 20 different versions fo some same style and each claims to be better. Making forms would just serve to add to a pile of confusion already. It doesn't display any particular martial ability as far as application goes.

the real test of any style is the fight. did you win? how? what worked? etc.

[YouKnowWho]

It doesn't display any particular martial ability as far as application goes.

It depends on how you will define a "style". Take the Yang Taiji for example. It has only one long 108 moves forms. Can you find a foot sweep, or hip throw in it? It's not in that form. You may add a set of 50 individual drills along with the form. If you link those 50 drills, that's another form whether you want to call it or not. In your library, you can have 1 book or more than 1 books. It only has to do with teaching reference.

[PalmStriker]

One thing's for sure. If you don't do/practice certain tasks with your body you will not be able to at any given time. Forms can keep your muscle strength intact to perform if needed, and when not needed for defense/war:D, you will have your kungfu balance. Training different muscles in one form does not usually mean you will be able to do the same things/results as someone training in another form. Noticeably. Things I used to do I can no longer do. I know how and even though my weight and muscular build is the same I do not have the muscle strength to perform the movements. That is why I am creating a set that includes all the things I want to be able to do at a moment's notice, not just power strikes for crushing an opponent.

[YouKnowWho]

Things I used to do I can no longer do.

I find "right front kick with left hand touch right instep", "double jumping crescent kicks", and "tornado kick" are harder and harder to do when I get older. If I don't do combo drill such as:

- right front kick with left hand touch right instep,
- right double jumping crescent kicks,
- left double jumping crescent kicks,
- tornado kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mUIcIwRJIT4

I'm sure the day when I'm 80 years old, I won't be able to do that any more. Whether it has combat value or not, it's great for "health maintance"

[YouKnowWho]

It will be nice that there is a form that contain:

- jab, cross, hook, uppercut, hammer fist, back fist, ...
- horizontal elbow, downward elbow, upward elbow, double side elbows, ...
- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
- upward knee, horizontal knee, 45 degree knee, flying knee, ...
- finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock,
- single leg, hip throw, leg lift, foot sweep, ...
- ...

If we learn that form. we will have all the tools that we need.

[PalmStriker]

I find "right front kick with left hand touch right instep", "double jumping crescent kicks", and "tornado kick" are harder and harder to do when I get older. If I don't do combo drill such as:

- right front kick with left hand touch right instep,
- right double jumping crescent kicks,
- left double jumping crescent kicks,
- tornado kick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mUIcIwRJIT4

I'm sure the day when I'm 80 years old, I won't be able to do that any more. Whether it has combat value or not, it's great for "health maintance"
I hear you, Sifu, :) That health maintenance part of it is the beauty of TCMA. Like Yum Cha had posted earlier, the martial techniques imbedded in a health maintenance form set is ideal kungfu.

[PalmStriker]

Also, besides health maintenance and combat techniques there are embedded in forms exercises that enable one to perform evasive actions and of course, positioning, and share equal importance. Here is a vid showing a particular exercise at 2:17 that I used to do, 4-5 consecutive, also holding my son when he was little until he weighed 60 lbs. :D Karate training has a similar exercise of sorts for the same purpose but not this training for this kind of control. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxqh1sREiBs

[-N-]

It will be nice that there is a form that contain:

- jab, cross, hook, uppercut, hammer fist, back fist, ...
- horizontal elbow, downward elbow, upward elbow, double side elbows, ...
- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
- upward knee, horizontal knee, 45 degree knee, flying knee, ...
- finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock,
- single leg, hip throw, leg lift, foot sweep, ...
- ...

If we learn that form. we will have all the tools that we need.

The particular sequence and the methods of transition will be more interesting than the individual tools or techniques.

What is your personal style, preference, or approach?

The techniques are not your system.

[YouKnowWho]

The tools are what you use. How to make your tools work is your system.

[-N-]

The tools are what you use. How to make your tools work is your system.

Yep, pretty much everyody has the same tools.

How the system uses them is the interesting part.

[YouKnowWho]

Yep, pretty much everyody has the same tools.

How the system uses them is the interesting part.

The difference is if you train

- "style" first, you will say that certain tools are against your style principle.
- "tools" first, when you find that your style doesn't use certain tools, you will find another style that uses those tools.

Some people believe that "style" will develop your body and power. Tools are not important. That kind of thinking is not realistic to me. If you don't train "hook punch", and if your style also doesn't have "hook punch", no matter how long that you may train your style, it willl not help your "hook punch" development.

[-N-]

The difference is if you train

- "style" first, you will say that certain tools are against your style principle.
- "tools" first, when you find that your style doesn't use certain tools, you will find another style that uses those tools.


It's not either/or. You can train style and tools at the same time. That is how my teacher taught, and how I teach.

[YouKnowWho]

Many years ago when I still worked for IBM, one of my projects was to build an "Object Builder". My "Object Builder" contains many basic tools such as:

- text field,
- image field,
- text button,
- select button,
- ...

By dragging and dropping those basic tools, one can construct:

- menu bar,
- pop up menu,
- pull down menu,
- text editor,
- image editor,
- ...

If you have a toolbox that contain all the tools that you need, you can build a lot of complicate objects by using it. The "Object Builder" concept can be applied on MA as well. After you have learned how the combat tools work, all you need to learn after that is how to:

- set it up?
- link them into a logical order.
- ...

[YouKnowWho]

Sometime people may say that the form is just one part of training. The application is usually trained via partner drills.

Here is the issue. How many partner drills do you have in your style? 20? 50? 100? 200? ... How do you expect your next generation to be able to remember all those individual "partner drills"?

What's the best way to "record" those information so it won't be losed? Have the TCMA forms "recorded" all the information that's needed to be recorded? I don't know about other styles. As far as the longfist system, the "head circling" is not recorded in any of the longfist forms.