Pure System

[YouKnowWho]

Many years ago, Apple developed a modern operating system called Pink. It was an object oriented system that one object built on top of one or more objects. For example, a character is an object. The word built on top of characters, the sentence built on top of words. The Pink system was very "pure". Oneday IBM brought that technology and tried to add more development on it. Later on IBM found out that the performance was so slow. Instead of going 10 levels deep to reach something, IBM added some short cuts so something can be reached faster in order to improve the performance. After that modification, the "object built on top of objects" technique was no longer "pure".

When a product such as Pink was in research mode, performance was not important. The moment that it will become a comercial product, the slow performance will be an issue. Sometimme a "pure" system is just not practical.

Quite often we can hear:

- This is not in our system.
- We don't do this.
- It's against our style principle.
- ...

In the ancient time, our TCMA founder might only have to fight against another TCMA guy. Today, a TCMA guy has to fight againt both TCMA guy and non-TCMA guy. Apparently some "additional training" will be needed.

When Judo meets wrestling, Judo has 2 options:

1. Add "single leg" into Judo.
2. Make "single leg" illegal.

Of course if you only spar/wrestle with people in your own style, you can keep your style pure. the moment that you spar/wrestle with another style, the moment that you can't be pure any more.

Does "pure system" have any value in our 21th centry? Your thought?

[Punch.HeadButt]

Does "pure system" have any value in our 21th centry? Your thought?

In my opinion, no. Not in the context of a martial art in practice. If we look at "pure" as meaning untainted and unchanged, it can't exist and survive in an individual. "Pure", as I'm interpreting (or misinterpreting :o) here, is stagnant. It's dead.

[Neeros]

Sure. Find what techniques in your kung fu system work best against specific styles, ie boxing and practice them until you can counter a boxer, for example.

Stay mobile in your stances/footwork, when they jab use a threading move like Golden Dragon Plays with Water, when they go for a power shot swallow it by shifting back in your bow and arrow and tame their hand then press forward with a mid strike such as Black Tiger Steals Heart followed by a hip throw like Felling like Felling Tree With Roots in one smooth motion. Hooks can be countered with Immortal Emerges from Cave or Tame Tiger With Double Bows to defend and strike at the same time. Uppercuts can be countered by brushing them off to the side with a false leg hand sweep and moving in swiftly with the same sequence as above, mid or high strike and/or hip throw. If they try to bounce away move with them, kung fu footwork covers more ground and is tactically faster. Pressing attacks, its all about pressing attacks, don't let up, stay covered by keeping their gate closed, keep striking and tossing them on their butts.

There are only so many ways someone can punch, kick, grapple, and throw, if you know the application and have the skills developed through lots of training there are enough techniques in Kung fu to have ample counters for anything. It is just a matter of training to counter the situation.

[LFJ]

Quite often we can hear:

- This is not in our system.
- We don't do this.
- It's against our style principle.
- ...

In the ancient time, our TCMA founder might only have to fight against another TCMA guy. Today, a TCMA guy has to fight againt both TCMA guy and non-TCMA guy. Apparently some "additional training" will be needed.

When Judo meets wrestling, Judo has 2 options:

1. Add "single leg" into Judo.
2. Make "single leg" illegal.

Of course if you only spar/wrestle with people in your own style, you can keep your style pure. the moment that you spar/wrestle with another style, the moment that you can't be pure any more.

Are you just talking about pitting two styles together in a fair match, which might mean adding or taking away certain techniques? Or are you talking about whether or not a given style can work when facing other styles without change?

We hear purist talk a lot in the Wing Chun forum. Many practitioners want to adhere strictly to the principles of the system. Bruce Lee thought it was too restrictive and added to it what worked for him. We see others doing that effectively today.

I personally think it is a good system that can handle any sort of fighter in a given situation. One just needs to trust their principles. The problem is, being placed under stress can cause trained skills to give way to instinct, possibly causing errors and leading to defeat, particularly before one is experienced enough. It takes a significant amount of training to keep an opponent's pressure within your skill level, that is to be able to adhere to the principles and not break even when under stress. It's when your skill level is not developed sufficiently above your instinct level that you can't handle increased pressure and will be forced to revert to instinct, which may be to use a bad habit or techniques outside your system. Sometimes those other techniques work and that's all that matters, but I believe it can be done, that you can keep to VT against any style if you're trained well enough and it is often more efficient to do so.

[xcakid]

Does "pure system" have any value in our 21th centry? Your thought?

NOPE

TCMA never had firearms. We have firearms today. Krav Maga incorporates firearms training in order to be relevant in todays scenarios. Modern weapons and tactics are severely lacking in TCMA.

[David Jamieson]

Does "pure system" have any value in our 21th centry? Your thought?

I think the question is "did it ever"?

Pure. What does that mean anyway? Is anything human pure? No.

Kick, punch, throw, lock.
Have something to address attacking with each of those and defending from each of those and you're good. Doesn't matter if you are MAC or PC. :)

[bawang]

Does "pure system" have any value in our 21th centry? Your thought?

learned from "five gates six methods" "eight pai nine ryu" are compliments in ancient kung fu

[Jimbo]

Does "pure system" have any value in our 21th centry? Your thought?

What is a 'pure' system, anyway? All systems were originally methods developed for the purpose of survival/victory over others. If the founders of these systems had access to the information we have today, and had to contend with other TCMA, non-TCMA, modern weapons, and even erratic, drug-induced non-MA, they would have incorporated whatever they needed to deal with it.

Attempting to keep a system 100% 'pure' is an exercise in futility, as far as the apparent original purpose of each system. It quickly becomes obsolete. As long as what you 're adding is beneficial to you as a practitioner, as opposed to adding or subtracting things without rhyme or reason.

Besides, it's obvious that no CMA system today, regardless of how 'pure' it purports to be, is exactly the same as when it was founded.

[lkfmdc]

never was a pure system, only people who believe this are the same who think shaw brother movies are real and believe in the tooth fairy

[sanjuro_ronin]

in 35 years and on 3 different continents and haveing trained in Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Okinawan and western MA I can say this:
NO SUCH THING IS A PURE SYSTEM.

The only people that think they are doing something "unique" and "different" are those with their heads in the sand.

[LFJ]

What I understood "pure system" to mean was not techniques being unique and original– obviously there is no such thing– but having an outline of certain principles and not deviating from them.

[GeneChing]

Within a given lineage, purity can have meaning. It cam reside within the notion of direct transmission from master to pupil, however that relationship is never what it used to be. Only a few rare exceptions still live with their master 24/7 in the modern world. Especially when you consider the cultural tradition of village styles or clan styles, the notion of purity can be significant is a socially exclusive way. I personally don't endorse this kind of thinking, but I often see others that do.

There is a scientific elegance to the purity and sterility - to truly perform scientific experiments, it is a requirement. This is one of my peeves when it comes to martial art styles describing themselves as 'scientific'. They have no idea of the scientific method and are completely misusing the term. That being said, there is something to be said for usefulness of purity, but strictly as an academic pursuit, and very few martial artists pursue the discipline academically. While some might put on airs like they do (myself included, but it comes with the job), there is a value to the notion purity in certain very specific scenarios.

That being said, I'm far from 'pure' myself. I'm a total martial mutt. ;)


TCMA never had firearms. Firearms have been with us for several centuries now. Many martial academics argue that the arise of martial arts as a spiritual pursuit came about with the spread of firearms. This theory propounds that once firearms came about, hand-to-hand became obsolete, so in order to instill value into the tradition, martial arts moved towards sports and spiritual pursuits. An intriguing affirmation of this idea is the fact that many of the initial martial treatises arise contiguous to the spread of firearms. So while TCMA might not address firearms, it may well be that TMA arose in reaction to firearms.

[lkfmdc]

Wang Lang added in techniques from 17 other systems to his praying mantis

Hung Hei Goon added "crane" to his "tiger" or so they say

Choy Lay Fut is a combintation of 3 different traditions

Bak Mei teaches sets from at least three different systems

"Eagle Claw" is a combination of Yue Fei's kung fu and Faan Jih Kyuhn

And what are "principles" when we talk about combat? There is only what works and what does not, and anyone looking to fight and survive only cares about what works...

[YouKnowWho]

A TCMA system may not like to "grab". But when you spar people from other styles, you can either:

1. make "grab" illegal (avoid the problem), or
2. learn how to deal with "grab" (solve the problem).

IMO, the 2nd approach is better. It adds something extra into your system.

[David Jamieson]

A TCMA system may not like to "grab". But when you spar people from other styles, you can either:

1. make "grab" illegal, or
2. learn how to deal with "grab".

IMO, the 2nd approach is better. It adds something extra into your system.

not liking something doesn't mean it isn't going to be applied to you in combat.

if something doesn't address all ranges, then it is incomplete and training needs to be picked up elsewhere to fill it out.

For instance, the Kung Fu I have been taught has Chin Na but zero wrestling techniques practiced although there is applicable holds and throws expressed in the system it was almost invariably never taught in a viable situation. So any and all wrestling I have comes from training done and carried forward out of the high school team I was on.

Boxing technique I have learned has seeped into my Kung Fu. What can I say, I find the simple technique to be more comfortable, adaptable an effective than using weird hand forms. I like fist or palm, I use fists and palms. I use Fu Jow for Cradle blows and grabs exclusively and never use snake hand or crane or sword fingers etc. None of that gets applied in sparring, ever.

But, I still keep it anyway because hey, just because I don't know what to do with it now, doesn't mean I won't find out somewhere down the road.

I think that going to the complex or obscure over the basics can give you the surprise element you need, but it is going to wear thin fast if you do it a lot and you will be countered and dumped for it eventually. At least, that's how I've seen it go down a few times over the years.

[bawang]

NOPE

TCMA never had firearms. We have firearms today. Krav Maga incorporates firearms training in order to be relevant in todays scenarios. Modern weapons and tactics are severely lacking in TCMA.

tcma had firearms FOO

if u learned the real shaolin u would know dis

[YouKnowWho]

Are you just talking about pitting two styles together in a fair match, which might mean adding or taking away certain techniques? Or are you talking about whether or not a given style can work when facing other styles without change?

We hear purist talk a lot in the Wing Chun forum. Many practitioners want to adhere strictly to the principles of the system.
I'm more talking about "a given style can work when facing other styles ...".

My roundhouse kick had gone through 4 changing stages.

1. 1st I learned it in longfist. The kick was something between a side kick and roundhouse kick. It's not noticeable. This is why some people even say that roundhouse kick does not exist in longfist.

2. Later on I had cross trained the white ape system, In one of the white ape forms, I learned a clear roundhouse kick.

3. Oneday I found that TKD's roundhouse kick is better. It has more detail such as pointing knee to your opponent, bend your leg, kick out, and pull your leg back along the same path. These level of detail was never taught in my longfist system. I was very excited and spend a great deal of time to it.

4. Later on I found out that MT roundhouse kick is even better. Instead of kicking up, you let your leg to drop and hit your opponent on the way down. Also the body pulling leg can generate much more power than the TKD way.

If I can find any way that's better than the MT way, I will change my roundhouse kick again. Of course I won't go to my longfist teacher and tell him that his roundhouse kick is not the best method. I just keep it to myself. I was the person who changes it alter all.

From my personal experience, I don't understand why some people just don't want to change. If I keep training my longfist roundhouse kick for the rest of my life, I don't think it can reach to the same level as the TKD method or the MT method.

[David Jamieson]

tcma had firearms FOO

if u learned the real shaolin u would know dis

Well, it doesn't now and monks taking up arms out of necessity or being pressed into it is hardly saying that TCMA had firearms incorporated into the mix.
Also, there isn't much in the way of recording that the Monks actually took up arms in peacetime to understand them and to define a kind of Kung fu that uses them.

so. No. NO TCMA does not have firearms just because there are a few old pictures extant of some monks or tcmaists using guns to fight the japanese or engaged in the civil war.

[xcakid]

tcma had firearms FOO

if u learned the real shaolin u would know dis


Show me documented training of firearms within TCMA. Just cause a TCMA practitioner picked up a musket and shot it, does not mean TCMA has a proven firearms training curriculum. Unless it was added to a system as an after thought.

I call B.S.

[bawang]

I call B.S.

this coming from shaolin do practitioner
Well, it doesn't now and monks taking up arms out of necessity or being pressed into it is hardly saying that TCMA had firearms incorporated into the mix.
Also, there isn't much in the way of recording that the Monks actually took up arms in peacetime to understand them and to define a kind of Kung fu that uses them.

so. No. NO TCMA does not have firearms just because there are a few old pictures extant of some monks or tcmaists using guns to fight the japanese or engaged in the civil war.

ya. just because shaolin monks trained firearms doesn't prove they trained firearm

[xcakid]

this coming from shaolin do practitioner




Say what?!?! I don't practice Shaolin Do, you must have me mistaken with someone else.

[bawang]

Say what?!?! I don't practice Shaolin Do, you must have me mistaken with someone else.

wat

wat u train mang. I confuse

[xcakid]

wat

wat u train mang. I confuse

Currently, Long Fist :cool: Been in long fist since I came on this board.
I have trained in other arts, but never Shaolin Do.

[David Jamieson]

this coming from shaolin do practitioner

ya. just because shaolin monks trained firearms doesn't prove they trained firearm

they used firearms at a point or two along the way. They didn't "train" them as you are inferring and it certainly isn't anything that made it's way into regular training along the way and even in the outlying villages.

so, perhaps some Shaolin monks used guns in the 1800's and early 1900's
Otherwise, no, no they didn't make it a regular modality of training.

geez, I'm sure the occasional chaplain had to pick up a rifle in ww2 as well, that doesn't mean he's got it as part of his training regimen.

[bawang]

Currently, Long Fist :cool: Been in long fist since I came on this board.
NICE ur a long fist brother. ok I will reveal the secreets.

plum flower spear and pear flower spear are firearms. did I blow ur mind

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcCCgj0ew7U

This clip is an excellent example that point out the difference between the Taiji method and the SC method.

- The pull at 0.09 is "Taiji" way with 2 contact points, the wrist and the elbow. He "pulled his opponent away" from him. Please notice that his opponent's legs are free.
- The pull at 0.40 is "SC" way with 3 contact points, the wrist, the elbow, and the leg. He used his right leg to "spring" his opponent's left leg so his opponent will "fall near by" him (if he did not release his grips). Please notice that one of his opponent's legs is not free.

The difference between Taiji and SC is the leg move. If you add leg move into Taiji, Taiji can be a very effective throwing art. The adding result may make Taiji not "pure". But why is that important?

[xcakid]

NICE ur a long fist brother. ok I will reveal the secreets.

plum flower spear and pear flower spear are firearms. did I blow ur mind

http://youtu.be/BNbMvlPc_7U :D

[Yum Cha]

All styles, like David(s) and others pointed out, are evolving constantly, but at a pace measured in generations, perhaps only barely visible in our own lifetimes. Even a seminal figure like Bruce Lee took two generations to establish his style. And the rule is, the more generations removed from the 'seminal figure' the weaker the Fu.
As with all study, once you have completed the regular training to the standard of your instructor, you begin to hone your skills further, and perhaps some might find a new bit to add. That being said, perhaps consistency is more relevant than purity. Purity to me indicates an un changed, un evolving constant, which may be good for academic purposes as a snapshot, but its not a living breathing thing.

Here's the question in my mind, if you have two options, or 3 or more, in a situation, which do you choose? If you are a striker who has a little x-training to understand grappling, do you grapple or strike? Can you afford the time to think about it?

It takes work to learn to apply a style of fighting, boxing, wrestling or Pak Mei and it becomes an issue of depth vs breadth with how many different things you learn.

And it goes without saying that if you find holes, you fill them with whatever works for you. Its the duplication that worries me.

[lkfmdc]

All styles, like David(s) and others pointed out, are evolving constantly, but at a pace measured in generations, perhaps only barely visible in our own lifetimes. Even a seminal figure like Bruce Lee took two generations to establish his style. And the rule is, the more generations removed from the 'seminal figure' the weaker the Fu.



While I think these are the general rules, you can always hope to challenge them... we should strive to be alive and evolving. That doesnt have to mean "disrespect" or giving up your root, but the greatest disrespect is going stale

[YouKnowWho]

If I try to search for my ancient root and DNA, I may find this.

http://imageshack.us/a/img24/8929/sc2cv.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img689/8172/sc1p.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img692/2203/sc4fu.jpg

Why do I want to do that for?

[lkfmdc]

If I try to search for my ancient root and DNA, I may find this.

http://imageshack.us/a/img24/8929/sc2cv.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img689/8172/sc1p.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img692/2203/sc4fu.jpg

Why do I want to do that for?

I have been martial arts ever since I was a kid. I somehow I always knew things that they passed off as "tradition" were not right...

We learn this technique, it is the third thing we learn, but we can't use it in sparring? WHY?

Another school, there is no sparring, hah hah, this is clearly a joke, time to move on

School tells me they don't kick, well, what if I kick?

Lots of TCMA say they don't wrestle? Well, anyone who has ever done any sparring, much less actual fighitng, kinows there is going to be wrestling

[lkfmdc]

Here's the question in my mind, if you have two options, or 3 or more, in a situation, which do you choose? If you are a striker who has a little x-training to understand grappling, do you grapple or strike? Can you afford the time to think about it?



If I can see you are a good grappler but not a good striker, I want to strike you

If you are a striker with no wresting, I want to wrestle and/or submit you

When you punch, I kick

When you kick, I punch

If you wrestle, I knee

If you knee, I wrestle

The art of war talks about "local superiority",,,, you fight them where they are weak, not where they are strong

[YouKnowWho]

If I try to used this "steal a peach under leaves - groin strike" in sparring,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys8LziWtHdE

I would always get hit on my face. Since this is the 1st form that student has to learn in my system. I told my guys that the purpose of this move is to "bend down, grab a handfull of dirt (or sand), and then throw at your opponent's face". One of my smart ass guys asked me, "What if you stand on pavement road?" I was speechless. Why did the original form creator put this move into his form? I have no idea.

[lkfmdc]

If I try to used this move in sparring,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys8LziWtHdE

I would always get hit on my face. Since this is the 1st form that student has to learn in my system. I told my guys that the purpose of this move is to "bend down, grab a handfull of dirt (or sand) and then throw at your opponent's face". One of my guys asked me, "What if you stand on pavement road?" I was speechless. Why did the original form creator put this move into his form? I have no idea.

I think (hope) you are being funny.....

right hand is striking the groin, left hand should have already moved the arm/punch aside.... or circled to trap as you turned....

not the best technique, but it has some potential I think

PS: I also think this is example of how to 'simplify" movement old teachers left out angles, sometimes forgetting that without the angle the technique is worthless

[LFJ]

And what are "principles" when we talk about combat? There is only what works and what does not, and anyone looking to fight and survive only cares about what works...

A lot of things work, but that is not the only thing to care about. In fighting, ending quickly is also important because the longer the fight proceeds the greater the chance of being seriously injured. So we must also care about efficiency. We don't go into a fight with sportive mentality, knowing we have several rounds and decide to feel out the opponent during the first round.

So one such principle of efficiency is constant forward pressure. Some styles may re-chamber a kick and bring the leg back and place it down before moving forward, which may give the opponent the opportunity to reset. Adhering to your principle you'd turn the kick into a forwarding step to keep the pressure on the opponent with relentless attack.

See chambered kicks may well work, but it is within some system principles to eat up time and every gap with forward pressure to ensure a quick end. You may win either way, but it is possible to adhere to your principles for valid reasons, keeping a "pure system".

[YouKnowWho]

moved the arm/punch aside....

If that's the case, the left hand should move sideway instead of downward.

[lkfmdc]

A lot of things work, but that is not the only thing to care about. In fighting, ending quickly is also important because the longer the fight proceeds the greater the chance of being seriously injured.



many times you don't have a choice, it WILL go on longer than you want

people who practice in their kwoon often think it will be easy to end a fight. They think some technique will do so much damage

when you see a real fight, when you have experienced it, you understand things are NOT that simple...

Things are done and happen that you would have sworn would result in a KO or death and yet the fight goes on....





So we must also care about efficiency. We don't go into a fight with sportive mentality, knowing we have several rounds and decide to feel out the opponent during the first round.



you'd better learn how to pace yourself, or you will run out of gas and find out that the other person is still alive, fine, fighting, and looking to kill you




So one such principle of efficiency is constant forward pressure.



forward pressure without proper conditioning is an excellent way to gas out and get slaughtered... it's one of those things those mere "sport fighters" learn rather quickly :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

If that's the case, the left hand should move sideway instead of downward.

student learned it wrong and then taught it wrong

or the teacher thought is should be the other way

or the teacher didn't know the real application

or the teacher wanted to hide the real application

so many ways for these things to get messed up

[Yum Cha]

If I can see you are a good grappler but not a good striker, I want to strike you

If you are a striker with no wresting, I want to wrestle and/or submit you

When you punch, I kick

When you kick, I punch

If you wrestle, I knee

If you knee, I wrestle

The art of war talks about "local superiority",,,, you fight them where they are weak, not where they are strong

We agree in principle, but not in execution. "Fight them where they are weak....." can mean a lot of things, including using surprise and unfamiliar attacks.
This is my rant, you don't respond to your opponent wherever possible, but make him respond to you. Even if you step right, forcing him to adjust, you are starting to dictate the engagement.
Just like BJJ says to consolidate, then submit, I think the same, consolidate an advantageous situation and attack. That situation may be an expected attack from the other person, with their hands because you wrong footed them, or the like. Initially attacking their balance to weaken a counter, and then pouncing like a tiger with whatever you got, generally knees and elbows, break a knee if you get the chance. All over rover.
Straight blast is what Lee called it, its nothing new. And you gotta have plan B.....

[lkfmdc]

This is my rant, you don't respond to your opponent wherever possible, but make him respond to you.



some people are aggressive, others are counter fighters, the style can not make the man, only inform him

[LFJ]

Things are done and happen that you would have sworn would result in a KO or death and yet the fight goes on....

That's why you don't take the pressure off.

But guaranteed, get your fingers locked deep around an esophagus and it's game over for anyone.


you'd better learn how to pace yourself, or you will run out of gas and find out that the other person is still alive, fine, fighting, and looking to kill you

Economy of motion is another principle that goes hand-in-hand.
We're not throwing big swings and head height kicks.


forward pressure without proper conditioning is an excellent way to gas out and get slaughtered... it's one of those things those mere "sport fighters" learn rather quickly :rolleyes:

Or any martial artist...duh? Why would you even need to suggest that?

You may be pacing yourself too much. ;)

[lkfmdc]

But guaranteed, get your fingers locked deep around an esophagus and it's game over for anyone.



OMG what a TOTAL CLOWN YOU ARE... what's next, pulling their beating heart out of their body before they die and showing it to them :rolleyes:

you've never had a real fight have you?

[LFJ]

You've never fought without gloves, have you?

[lkfmdc]

you are a clown... the fact you don't even know how stupid you sound makes you an even bigger clown

you might as well tell us all how you can fly and melt metal with your breath.....

[LFJ]

This is where I learned my techniques: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyXohnrEXVA

[Neeros]

you are a clown... the fact you don't even know how stupid you sound makes you an even bigger clown

you might as well tell us all how you can fly and melt metal with your breath.....

Grab your own throat with a tiger claw hand form and squeeze.

Quite fragile isn't it?

[Yum Cha]

Grab your own throat with a tiger claw hand form and squeeze.

Quite fragile isn't it?

Are you saying give yourself a Saatchi???

[SPJ]

Many years ago, Apple developed a modern operating system called Pink.

Does "pure system" have any value in our 21th centry? Your thought?

iOS 7 has functionalities of android OS

something borrowed (android)

something blue (windows 8.1)

We all borrow or learn some solutions/functions from other styles.

Such is the life.

At first android (Google) borrowed from iOS (apple).

In 2013, iOS 7 borrowed ideas from android (google) and windows blue (microsoft).

Even thou the codes are varied but they serve the same functions.

In the end, it is all about user experiences or interface (UI).

We may fight or practice with various principles/styles.

But the fighting moves all have the same or similar functions.

What system/style we use (iOS, android, windows 8.1) ?

It is a question of personal preference or familiarities.

They all do the same jobs or functions.

:)

[bawang]

Grab your own throat with a tiger claw hand form and squeeze.

Quite fragile isn't it?

r u frend of david carradine

[bawang]

If I try to used this "steal a peach under leaves - groin strike" in sparring,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys8LziWtHdE

I would always get hit on my face. Since this is the 1st form that student has to learn in my system. I told my guys that the purpose of this move is to "bend down, grab a handfull of dirt (or sand), and then throw at your opponent's face". One of my smart ass guys asked me, "What if you stand on pavement road?" I was speechless. Why did the original form creator put this move into his form? I have no idea.

cuz ur doing it rong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxQWeSDL65k&feature=youtu.be

[MightyB]

cuz ur doing it rong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxQWeSDL65k&feature=youtu.be

Is this you? The infamous Bawang finally revealed!?!?!?!?! :eek:

[MightyB]

How will these principals effect your kung fu?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoQB8pBxz7U

[David Jamieson]

How will these principals effect your kung fu?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoQB8pBxz7U

I studied boxing before I started kung fu. I never dropped the boxing big 4.

[bawang]

Is this you? The infamous Bawang finally revealed!?!?!?!?! :eek:

I no know who dat is. I am the tightey witey just like yuos.

[Kymus]

I no know who dat is. I am the tightey witey just like yuos.

http://t.qkme.me/3t5tf6.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

How will these principals effect your kung fu?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoQB8pBxz7U

Getting punched in the face is a sure way to have your kung fu effected.

[lkfmdc]

Getting punched in the face is a sure way to have your kung fu effected.

many systems originally advocated body punching... you see things like "Chyuhn Sam Choih" (heart piercing punch)...

when western boxing arrived in China, head punching became an issue, and there are tons of stories about TCMA men having problems with those trained in western boxing (my own sifu included)

Some adapted, some just denied

[Kymus]

many systems originally advocated body punching... you see things like "Chyuhn Sam Choih" (heart piercing punch)...

That's interesting! Any idea why body punching was the thing?

I think this really shows that if you want to be a good fighter, you need to experience how other people fight. I've found some of my weaknesses from sparring friends that are trained in Korean arts.

This is why I've always had an open sparring policy. I'm down to spar anyone. If I get my a$$ kicked, then that's great, because then I learned something.

[bawang]

That's interesting! Any idea why body punching was the thing?


lack of sparring from 200 year ban on martial arts.

in shaolin kung fu, if u don't keep ur hands up ur considered the lowest level of martial artist

[Kymus]

Another school, there is no sparring, hah hah, this is clearly a joke, time to move on

I mention this story a lot, mostly because it surprises me. I went to this school for a few months. The guy running the school learned in Taiwan from a handful of masters. He was a lineage holder and all that. He's also in the USKS hall of fame.

Sparring? Only point sparring. Continuous sparring was a rarity, I was told. IMO, the point-sparring thing was likely for tournaments.


Lots of TCMA say they don't wrestle? Well, anyone who has ever done any sparring, much less actual fighitng, kinows there is going to be wrestling

No no no no no :mad:

An invisible guy breaks up the fight and both fighters start on their feet again.

[lkfmdc]

lack of sparring from 200 year ban on martial arts

in shaolin kung fu, if u don't keep ur hands up ur considered the lowest level of martial artist

body punching fetish and hands up/down issue are separate issues IMO

"hands down" in forms is not really "hands down" it is imagining the trapping, bridging, grabbing etc... but when people aren't taught this and aren't drilled in hands up when not "engaged" you see all the slop boxing

PS: since Si Jih Hao / Lama / Hop Ga doesn't play this bridging game, much easier for us to accpet hands up and continuous striking of western boxing

[Kymus]

what's next, pulling their beating heart out of their body before they die and showing it to them :rolleyes:

Wasn't that CTS's finishing move? :p

[bawang]

body punching fetish and hands up/down issue are separate issues IMO

"hands down" in forms is not really "hands down" it is imagining the trapping, bridging, grabbing etc... but when people aren't taught this and aren't drilled in hands up when not "engaged" you see all the slop boxing

in ancient times you don't hit the head in friendly sparring. this had an impact .otherwise its mostly due to culture and habits.

[Kymus]

If I can see you are a good grappler but not a good striker, I want to strike you

If you are a striker with no wresting, I want to wrestle and/or submit you

When you punch, I kick

When you kick, I punch

If you wrestle, I knee

If you knee, I wrestle

The art of war talks about "local superiority",,,, you fight them where they are weak, not where they are strong

This is what I strive for. Learn Northern, Southern, Throwing, Wrestling.

I want to know that I can face (almost) any opponent. Furthermore, I think it's important to see this, like what you described. If my opponent is more of a distance fighter, then I'll close the distance. If they want to close the distance, then I'll keep them at a distance, etc. etc.

But considering that my root was formed at PAMA (http://pamausa.com/Pages/curricul.shtml), go figure I'm very keen on cross-training.

[lkfmdc]

Sparring? Only point sparring. Continuous sparring was a rarity, I was told. IMO, the point-sparring thing was likely for tournaments.



at some point, CMA guys began to think this light game like sparring was real... I think maybe when they convinced themselves they were so deadly they thought they could only play ***gy games of tag :confused:

After CTS passed, we met and trained briefly with another coach from guangdong. He has been on coaching staff with CTS.... he treid to impress us to get us as students. He said "I used to spar all the coaches and I was always the winner"

My si-dai, Stephen Innocenzi, asked "so you beat CTS also?"

CTS was already deceased, yet the guy went sort of pale and shook his hand pretty furiously... he corrected himself

"no, we did sparring, not fighting. No one did this with your teacher (CTS) because he didn't play, he hurt people"

CTS had been exposed to western boxing. I think the people who were exposed to western boxing learned what sparring really was. The people who did not go outside of TCMA kept playing tag

[lkfmdc]

in ancient times you don't hit the head in friendly sparring.



read what I just posted

but also look at 1927 and 1928 lei tai tournaments and how it started out head punching and then quickly became no head punching

[bawang]

read what I just posted

but also look at 1927 and 1928 lei tai tournaments and how it started out head punching and then quickly became no head punching
thank you for the wise story, mighty david ross.

whats ridiculous is that a lot of people do forms so much for so long that when they assume a fighting stance it feels unnatural, it doesn't feel like kung fu. that is an epic joke, and epic failing, and n epic shame of kung fu. when I hold a boxing stance it feels natural to me, its just like any other kung fu posture. I don't enter into another "mindset". but everytime I show it to kung fu people they smirk at me and chew gum.

[Kymus]

at some point, CMA guys began to think this light game like sparring was real... I think maybe when they convinced themselves they were so deadly they thought they could only play ***gy games of tag :confused:

IMO, point sparring could be used as a tool. Like, a tactics thing of getting the first strike or something, but it pales (greatly) in comparison to real sparring. It's foolish to think that one is just the same as the other. It baffles me that people with 2x the experience I have seem to think otherwise. I can only think that they've only ever sparred people of the same (or similar arts) and have never actually been challenged or been in a real fight, for that matter.


"no, we did sparring, not fighting. No one did this with your teacher (CTS) because he didn't play, he hurt people"

Yeah, I think even with continuous sparring, it's easy to develop bad habits. Heck, it wasn't until I met my JJJ teacher that I ever thought about grabbing my opponent's clothing to throw them, control them, choke them, etc. We limit our experience because we don't want to hurt the guy. A balance is needed. Minimal padding, with as much force as possible without serious injury.

[lkfmdc]

early 20th C. the Chinese people have a love/hate relationship with anything from the west...

Some say everything Chinese is bad, look to the west for guidance. Japan learned from west, is now an imperial power and has beaten China in war. If this is your mindset, you can accept and learn western boxing and Japanese Judo

Others are fierce nationalists and xenophobes. Impossible to accept anything not Chinese. And deny any value in western way

[bawang]

u must carry on the torch david ross. it is ur DUTEH

[LFJ]

in shaolin kung fu, if u don't keep ur hands up ur considered the lowest level of martial artist

:D @4:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSd2W3miaOM

[lkfmdc]

In October 1928 three Chinese generals, Zhang Zhi Jiang (张之江), Li Lie Jun (李烈鈞) and Li Jing Lin (李景林) organized the first public full contact competition in China. The purpose of the competition was to select qualified teachers for the newly founded Central Kuoshu Institute (中南國術館),

In the “boxing” division, competition was suspended after a few days due to the injuries. The event was held with very few rules, but more importantly without any gloves or protective gear. Like the early UFC’s many fighters injured their hands and legs, unaccustomed to actually striking the elbows and knees used to block. The last 12 contestants were not permitted to continue, the public excuse being the “fear of killing off some of the greatest masters of the time”. The overall winner was voted on by a jury of his peers!

The next year a similar event was held in Hangzhou, China. This event was also organized by Li Jinglin, then acting as vice-dean of the Central Martial Arts Academy. This time there were 125 entrants for the “boxing” or “free fighting” (San Shou) competition which was held November 21-27. The event was very popular, the audiences every day numbered in the tens of thousands.

The tournament had few rules, they were not allowed to attack the eyes, throat or groin – anyone breaching these rules was disqualified. However, the event also had a flaw in the rules, in the event of a draw BOTH contestants advanced to the next round. By the end of the first day, more than half the contests had ended in draws! The rules were quickly changed so that in the event of a draw both contestants were eliminated.

With this, the competitors didn’t hold back and many people were hurt, mostly with head injuries. The judges’ committee instituted a new rule in response, stating that contestants were not allowed to continually attack the head! The history of Chinese martial arts fighting competitions is full of instances of poor organization, irrational rules, random rule changes and rules which defy logic and reality of combat.



This is typical Chinese martial arts thinking and continues even today. For a culture that produced the I Ching, Daoism and significant contributions to Buddhism you wonder why logic and critical analysis is so absent from the field of martial arts

[bawang]

This is typical Chinese martial arts thinking and continues even today. For a culture that produced the I Ching, Daoism and significant contributions to Buddhism you wonder why logic and critical analysis is so absent from the field of martial arts

it looks pretty clear to me. city Chinese weekend warriors

[lkfmdc]

it looks pretty clear to me. city Chinese weekend warriors

the generals who sponsored the Lei Tai were not city slicker weekend warriors

[bawang]

the generals who sponsored the Lei Tai were not city slicker weekend warriors

wat. why they mess up the rules so bad then

[lkfmdc]

wat. why they mess up the rules so bad then

that is a real question, isn't it?

Now, on the other hand, we DO clearly have people in TCMA who know what the truth about these things are



“According to our research during the past few years, many techniques in the traditional systems are not practical. It is important not to be preoccupied with arguments of traditional versus modern techniques. It is also not a good idea to ‘protect’ traditional systems by tailoring the rules to exclude, for example, foreign styles“.


Professor Xia Bahua, then president of the Chinese Wushu (Martial Arts) Association.

Professor Xia was a very down to earth man, he talked about guys slugging each other and struggling and wrestling and trying to beat the crap out of each other in the “old days.” He talked about sweat, and injuries and lots of blood and admitted that for political as well as practical reasons why in modern China the fighting had to be a little more cleaner, safer and presentable.



In recent years, the central government has begun to promote traditional martial arts, and every province has established martial arts training halls. Besides Chinese wrestling, the most popular arts are the Shaolin and Wudang styles of kung fu, both of which have methods of solo practice. Yet the practical applications of these arts is a subject that is never breached. Those who have practiced these arts twenty or thirty years have never defeated anyone who has practiced Western boxing or judo. Why is this? It is because the practitioners of Shaolin and Wudang styles only pay attention to the beauty of their forms — they lack practical methods and spirit and have lost the true transmissions of their ancestors.


Liu Jinsheng, the author of the 1935 “Chin Na Fa” manual (as translated by Tim Cartmell).

The quote continues




In the Ming dynasty, men such as Qi Jiguang and Yu Dayou advocated this type of realistic practice and opposed any empty practice done for the sake of appearance. This is why these men have proud reputations in history.



“New Book of Effective Discipline” (1561) and “Actual Record of Training” (1571)
reveal that even well before Qi’s time, the martial arts practiced in the villages as part of militia training had gradually evolved into a form of recreation as well, and had become characterized by the “flowery” movements.

Yes, the term “flowery” appears to date back almost 500 years! Qi condemned these “flowery” martial arts as undisciplined and inappropriate for military use in combat and emphasized that “…in training troops, the pretty is not practical and the practical is not pretty…”

Also note that General Qi’s training regimen included:
1) Maintaining an overall strong fighting constitution.
2) Strong hands and arms through training with heaver normal weapons.
3) Strong feet and legs through running over 600 yards using ankle weights (bags of sand).
4) Overall bodily strength and endurance by training while weighted down with
heavier than normal armor.
and finally
5) Sparring!

It’s a shame most students today have no idea about this stuff

[bawang]

thanks for posting the article from xia. theres so many factors that I forget some things.

I gess the early guoshu movement wanted something that's safe and sanitized like modern Olympic tkd competitions. it would make sense that wulin dahui(despite being staged) on cctv mimicked this.

[lkfmdc]

thanks for posting the article from xia. theres so many factors that I forget some things.

I gess the early guoshu movement wanted something that's safe and sanitized like modern Olympic tkd competitions. it would make sense that wulin dahui(despite being staged) on cctv mimicked this.

government (both KMT and CCP) want

(1) physical education for public, make them healthy, show society is well governed by their rule, use training to make them loyal. NOT LEARN REAL FIGHTING SKILLS SO THEY CAN MAKE TROUBLE

(2) find most effective fighting for military, this is why Central Kuoshu Institute sponsors a fighitng tournament, and sets up early combat program at WhamPoa. This is why sanshou/sanda program is for military only until 1980's

[Kymus]

That's rather interesting, thanks for sharing, Ross!

[mawali]

It isn't as bad as I think, knowing that xingyi was the template of CQB for the founding republic and the many choices of trainers were from the ranks of bajiquan and shuaijiao and a few well know baquazhang masters.

My main problem is (it may also be a joke) is that when I see a tournament or competition between baqua and some other practitioner(s), the skills of the baqua play is always relegated to walking around in circle for a few times then he gets clocked and falls out like a lamp! :confused::D

[lkfmdc]

knowing that xingyi was the template of CQB for the founding republic and the many choices of trainers were from the ranks of bajiquan and shuaijiao and a few well know baquazhang masters.



Early combat programs in Republic often depended upon who was wiling to "play along"... Hsing yi, Taiji, Shuai Jiao, some long fist, etc

Later on, in post-1949, everyone HAD to "play along" or go to reeducation camp. But programs were reflection of region. In north, more Shuai Jiao and northern styles. IN Guangdong, many souther kung fu techniques, etc

1956 book "sanshou" tried to introduce one standard for sanshou military program, but it never worked




My main problem is (it may also be a joke) is that when I see a tournament or competition between baqua and some other practitioner(s), the skills of the baqua play is always relegated to walking around in circle for a few times then he gets clocked and falls out like a lamp! :confused::D

"famous" (so he claimed) Bagua guy from South America wanted to fight the big Sanshou champion Al Loraux (sp?) from Boston team. Al is first American to win silver medal. He is a killer. We think "hmmmmm, we don't know mr bagua so maybe we don't just give him huge super fight". We give Mr Bagua a hung ga guy (Yee's hung ga) with 6 months training. Bagua guy does his walk in teh ring, then when he stops, Yee's Hung Ga guy Ko's him in first round, no, I **** you not

[Kymus]

I've had all of 3 classes in Baguazhang. I've practiced these few things for years, since I like bagua but that's all I know. It sounds like Mr. Baguabada$$ knows about as much as I do from bagua. Maybe even less :eek:

[bawang]

I've had all of 3 classes in Baguazhang. I've practiced these few things for years, since I like bagua but that's all I know. It sounds like Mr. Baguabada$$ knows about as much as I do from bagua. Maybe even less :eek:

baguazhang: by eunuchs, for eunuchs ™

[lkfmdc]

baguazhang: by eunuchs, for eunuchs ™

they lack testicular fortitude

[lkfmdc]

I've had all of 3 classes in Baguazhang. I've practiced these few things for years, since I like bagua but that's all I know. It sounds like Mr. Baguabada$$ knows about as much as I do from bagua. Maybe even less :eek:

he said he was undefeated in over 50 bare knuckle matches in south america!
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clearly it must be the gloves that done did him in ;)

[mooyingmantis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocMJfZkADI4

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocMJfZkADI4

That's an excellent clip. It tells us what happened back then. Thanks for sharing.

I have seen the following discussion which sounds very interest. You just can't win in online discussion.

A: Who here has seen this type of shenfa demonstrated in a real sparring session, or a fight? I haven't.
B: That's just because you haven't met me yet.
A: :eek:

[Kymus]

he said he was undefeated in over 50 bare knuckle matches in south america!

clearly it must be the gloves that done did him in ;)

Well, duh! I mean, when I try to do heaven palm with those silly gloves on, they impede my qi flow and my moves are not deadly anymore. They actually have a reverse effect and start to poison me with my own qi :eek:

(or, it could just be that the guy is a lying wanker. Whatev)

[mantis7]

Does anyone ever wonder why there are so many systems let alone the silliness of discussing purity?

Man can only strike throw and wrestle in so many ways. The bare bones of any system despite "strategies" will all look the same. When something becomes convoluted then the effectiveness goes out the window.

I mean, why so many different systems?

[bawang]

Does anyone ever wonder why there are so many systems let alone the silliness of discussing purity?

Man can only strike throw and wrestle in so many ways. The bare bones of any system despite "strategies" will all look the same. When something becomes convoluted then the effectiveness goes out the window.

I mean, why so many different systems?

there are many styles as the pubes on an Iranian woman, but there are only a handful of popular famous styles.

the popular styles are same today as 500 years ago

[lkfmdc]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocMJfZkADI4

starting at 1:40 you see early KMT attempts at "sanshou/sanda"...

[Neeros]

r u frend of david carradine

LOL!!

No doubt. :D

[Neeros]

How will these principals effect your kung fu?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoQB8pBxz7U

They wouldn't really. Those principles are excellent for boxing, not so good for kung fu.

A good boxing stance isn't a good kung fu stance, and a good kung fu stance isn't a good boxing stance.

He mentioned for a punch to push into the ground and lead off the front foot, and keep the heel of the back foot up. In kung fu you keep both feet planted, lead off the back foot and utilize waist rotation for power.

If you don't utilize the foundational principles and skills of kung fu, yet you try to apply kung fu techniques to the foundational principles of boxing then are you actually using kung fu?

[YouKnowWho]

How will these principals effect your kung fu?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoQB8pBxz7U
The boxing buncing foot work "fire strategy" is just one of the many TCMA footwork.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyottmoPIYI

TCMA footwork has much more.

[-N-]

They wouldn't really. Those principles are excellent for boxing, not so good for kung fu.

A good boxing stance isn't a good kung fu stance, and a good kung fu stance isn't a good boxing stance.

He mentioned for a punch to push into the ground and lead off the front foot, and keep the heel of the back foot up. In kung fu you keep both feet planted, lead off the back foot and utilize waist rotation for power.

If you don't utilize the foundational principles and skills of kung fu, yet you try to apply kung fu techniques to the foundational principles of boxing then are you actually using kung fu?

Brendan Lai included the raised rear heel in his Praying Mantis. We use raised heel for speed and mobility, and planted heel for power.

Nan Jing Guo Shu in the 1920's included boxing. Jiang Hao Quan integrated boxing into his kung fu. It was one of his trademarks.

[-N-]

Does "pure system" have any value in our 21th centry? Your thought?

Provides good foundation and understanding of classical methods.

Have a strong base and proceed from there.

[YouKnowWho]

and proceed from there.

That's the important words. You just don't stop there. If a wrestler doesn't mind to train "jumping side kick", a striker shouldn't mind to train "hip throw" either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXNx5WDPXYU&feature=youtu.be

[MightyB]

They wouldn't really. Those principles are excellent for boxing, not so good for kung fu.

A good boxing stance isn't a good kung fu stance, and a good kung fu stance isn't a good boxing stance.

He mentioned for a punch to push into the ground and lead off the front foot, and keep the heel of the back foot up. In kung fu you keep both feet planted, lead off the back foot and utilize waist rotation for power.

If you don't utilize the foundational principles and skills of kung fu, yet you try to apply kung fu techniques to the foundational principles of boxing then are you actually using kung fu?

http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/thefw.com/files/2013/06/BillyMadison.gif

[MightyB]

In all fairness: I should ad something to my critique of Neeros's statement.

In general - it's ok to have that purist point of view if it's tempered with real world cross playing of hands.

Nothing he say's is inherently wrong in a greater point of view, but I don't believe that particular statement is based on real world personal experience.

Is cross training necessary? yes and no, or it depends.

I'll give this example, my son has no interest in grappling - he thinks a lot of it is uber g@y... especially anything that involves spandex and sweaty mens rolling around together in quazi erotic fashion... ie north south position or the triangle.

He is into striking though - he loves it, so I tell him plainly that he has to practice in a realistic manner, and he has to test and evolve through playing hands seriously with people from other styles including wrestling. He has to do it, nobody can explain theory well enough for that to be the answer - it has to be experienced and I'm strongly encouraging him to do Judo as a compliment to his striking - so we work on throws, basic positions of control and sweeps and escapes if only to better prepare him for a worst case scenario where someone did take him down.

[MightyB]

So we have my son that's never going to be a MMA fighter because he doesn't like grappling, but loves striking and I want to see him reach his full potential. One way to do that is to find someone who's really good at western boxing to train him because western boxing IMO compliments a realized version of TCMA that's based in reality extremely well.

If anything, learning western boxing hands will make any TCMA hands better. <period>

IMO, cross training with other coaches and experts can lead to a better "Pure" TCMA in the long run.

[lkfmdc]

http://wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net/80450F/thefw.com/files/2013/06/BillyMadison.gif

meet the new troll, same as the old troll

[MightyB]

meet the new troll, same as the old troll

Hopefully you don't mean me because I'm like an old troll. :)

---

This is my favorite vid that you've posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln3kXN01dos

How can anybody watch real boxing training in action and not want to incorporate it for themselves?

[lkfmdc]

This is my favorite vid that you've posted https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln3kXN01dos



I have learned a ton of great stuff from Greg over the years

[Kellen Bassette]

If anything, learning western boxing hands will make any TCMA hands better. <period>

IMO, cross training with other coaches and experts can lead to a better "Pure" TCMA in the long run.

Yes and......yes.

[-N-]

I'll give this example, my son has no interest in grappling - he thinks a lot of it is uber g@y... especially anything that involves spandex and sweaty mens rolling around together in quazi erotic fashion... ie north south position or the triangle.

Just do continuous sparring with him, take him to the ground, and make him fight his way back out and up.

It helps to laugh and ridicule him as you ease up a little, then keep putting him back down on the ground or submitting him.

Did that with my kids and nephews. Cures them fast.

[Yum Cha]

OK, gonna get my a$$ kicked at now...

That boxing clip, weight on front foot, lift rear foot an pivot.

Goes against what I do now.

My big full contact tournament 20+ years ago, typically, I went out and tagged this guy with a great right to the chops, and a kick to the guts, and he just looked at me and came back...

I did the same another dozen times, bloodied him, but never hurt him. WTF?? I'm thinking. Sound familiar? Reviewed the video and the rear foot was always lifted. I started training to drive off the rear heel and got the heavy hit I was looking for. This was the best lesson my whole fighting career. Obviously, there's more to it as well.

We can debate the merits, and I'm interested in the advice and commentary from the boxing trained, but it serves as an example of Purity too.

I think its a style thing, and a classic example of 'either or' when x-training, something from one style that precludes something from another style. I think it can be dangerous and diffuse your skill with the wrong perspective.

[lkfmdc]

OK, gonna get my a$$ kicked at now...

That boxing clip,



wait, are you being crtical of Greg Nelson? Is that the clip you are talking about?

[Yum Cha]

This one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoQB8pBxz7U

Mad Maximillion57. Just the beginning Boxing 101 bit about standing and positioning.

Don't get your undies in a bundle...:D

[lkfmdc]

Listen! This is the internet! I've seen people crticize videos by Dan Gable saying "what does that guy know about wrestling". I've seen people say Erik Paulson doesn't know how to clinch, it's the ****ing internet, anything is possible

My undies are just fine, but if you had been crtical of Greg I would have laughed my jimmies in a counter clockwise direction

[Yum Cha]

Listen! This is the internet! I've seen people crticize videos by Dan Gable saying "what does that guy know about wrestling". I've seen people say Erik Paulson doesn't know how to clinch, it's the ****ing internet, anything is possible

My undies are just fine, but if you had been crtical of Greg I would have laughed my jimmies in a counter clockwise direction

"Laughing Jimmies" Argggggghhhhhhh the mental image is too much!

[-N-]

I did the same another dozen times, bloodied him, but never hurt him. WTF?? I'm thinking. Sound familiar? Reviewed the video and the rear foot was always lifted. I started training to drive off the rear heel and got the heavy hit I was looking for. This was the best lesson my whole fighting career. Obviously, there's more to it as well.

Mantis approach... speed setup, power finish.

[bawang]

OK, gonna get my a$$ kicked at now...

That boxing clip, weight on front foot, lift rear foot an pivot.

Goes against what I do now.

My big full contact tournament 20+ years ago, typically, I went out and tagged this guy with a great right to the chops, and a kick to the guts, and he just looked at me and came back...

I did the same another dozen times, bloodied him, but never hurt him. WTF?? I'm thinking. Sound familiar? Reviewed the video and the rear foot was always lifted. I started training to drive off the rear heel and got the heavy hit I was looking for. This was the best lesson my whole fighting career. Obviously, there's more to it as well.

We can debate the merits, and I'm interested in the advice and commentary from the boxing trained, but it serves as an example of Purity too.

I think its a style thing, and a classic example of 'either or' when x-training, something from one style that precludes something from another style. I think it can be dangerous and diffuse your skill with the wrong perspective.

u got weak calves

[mawali]

Boxing, despite its competitive external. is still a great sport. One can learn from its repertoire but it is limited in scope. compared to a BJJ, and it too has its arena. I would venture to say that anyone who picks up boxing is still way ahead of the game knowing that many of the better champions tend to be from USA.

No doubt that better nutrition, higher level of stamina and conditioning, and way better training methods go a long way in any sport while what is called CMA is still a niche industry. The carryover to other sports and competition is limited in all regards regarding CMA. I would venture to say that anyone trained in wrestling and adopting judo, shuaijiao and BJJ will have a long career because they have already gone through the ropes, as it were! Just sayin':confused:

[YouKnowWho]

I started training to drive off the rear heel and got the heavy hit I was looking for.
We all have to go through that training stage. there is no doubt about that.

This is the idea situation. In reality, when your opponent is moving in fast speed, it's very hard to hit him when your back foot is "still" on the ground. This is why the praying mantis "monkey stance" and "golden rooster stance" comes into help. You slide your back foot forward from bow-arrow stance to monkey stance (or even to golden rooster stance with your back foot in the air) to gain distance. Unfortunately since your back foot is "floating (not rooting)", you can't borrow the counter force from the ground and your punch won't be as powerful. This is why in the advance training stage, as soon a your power has been generated from the counter force through your back leg from the ground, you start to utilize your "body momentum".

To have your back foot on the ground, you can generate the maximum amount of power. To slide your back foot forward, you can cover the maximum distance with maximum speed. It's "power" vs. "speed" trade off.

If you watch the following "superman punch" clip, you can clear see that when his punch landed on his opponent's face, his back foot was in the air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHI4jhoHQh8

This kind of "superman punch" exists in both the longfist and praying mantis system. At 0.04 in the PM Beng Bu clip, a punch is executed in the "golden rooster" stance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1OuZDo-s20

In longfist, you jump forward in the air to throw 3 punches before your both feet landed back down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9jwmQv0xBY&feature=youtu.be

[PalmStriker]

never was a pure system, only people who believe this are the same who think shaw brother movies are real and believe in the tooth fairy
This stuff looks as pure as the driven snow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP84D4lnmDo

[Yum Cha]

John, you described something we do to a "T" but with different words.

Here's my spiel...

Closing the distance is a whole lesson in itself, but the point is to close and penetrate. Dynamically and fluidly, but for that instant when the fist lands, all our '6' powers lock and deliver the strike. TCMS stance drills always are so slow and clompy, you have to move beyond that. I think of it as that one split second in chaos when it all comes together. A solid chain of locked joints, tight muscle and bone connected to the earth for that split second, then relaxed and dynamic again.

Bawang, When you are up on your rear toes in a strike, and your fist makes full solid contact, your foot goes down, bleeding off energy like a shock absorber. Practice on a heavy bag, its not rocket science. Capturing that energy, (and other small amounts along the chain) gives you really heavy hands. If you're just harassing some guy, or setting up, that's another thing, but if you want to hit hard, you have to root. IMHO. You should be able to take the full charge from someone bigger than you and knock (bui) them backwards. I.e the big guy running in to bear hug and body slam you, and you throw an elbow up to meet him. You must have a stronger foundation to make up for their weight (in motion).

We 'slip the rear foot forward' after the technique, so we are always 'loaded' to drive off that rear foot heel, in essence we 'load' at the end of a technique in preparation of the next.

I used to chase guys around the ring, always being that half inch away from smashing them. Thus the reach and the body twist that brings the foot up. I learned how to get around that, making it unnecessary for the reach. Its a secret, called patience....

I broke an Achilles a decade ago, it brought me down off my toes onto flat feet for awhile and that made a difference too. As did watching Ali fight....

[bawang]

Bawang, When you are up on your rear toes in a strike, and your fist makes full solid contact, your foot goes down, bleeding off energy like a shock absorber. Practice on a heavy bag, its not rocket science.

u have weak calves

OK, gonna get my a$$ kicked at now...

That boxing clip, weight on front foot, lift rear foot an pivot.

Goes against what I do now.



spar a muay thai guy wit flat feet and see what happens. tell him to b gentle

[Yum Cha]

u have weak calves


spar a muay thai guy wit flat feet and see what happens. tell him to b gentle

How many thai guys do you know with flat feet? How can I find one?

[bawang]

How many thai guys do you know with flat feet? How can I find one?

r u a crack baby or have fetal alcohol syndrome, I said spar wit a muay thai guy with your flat feet.

the saying goes live to old age learn to old age. u still got a lesson to learn.

[Yum Cha]

r u a crack baby or have fetal alcohol syndrome, I said spar wit a muay thai guy with your flat feet.

But I don't have flat feet. My arches are good. Do you have flat feet or something? Don't be ashamed, lots of people live long and fruitful lives with flat feet. Buy good shoes.