Morsi is done!

[Syn7]

Army Ousts Egypt’s President; Morsi Denounces ‘Military Coup’


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/world/middleeast/egypt.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

What happened to "over my dead body? I guess looking at a well armed unit of soldiers took the **** outta that real quick.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0Trsszw1Uo

[Drake]

There's a lot more going on there than the media is reporting.

[Syn7]

I bet. I saw that "No leave" list. Are people bouncing out or is this the beginning of a big fight?

[Syn7]

I bet. I saw that "No leave" list. Are people bouncing out or is this the beginning of a big fight?

Apparently the latter :mad:

You can't completely shut the brotherhood out of the process. No matter how you look at this, they have a ton of support. If democracy really is the goal here, they have to have a voice. But what happens when that voice is advocating violence and not respecting the process that gave them power in the first place? That goes for all parties concerned.

This brings up the philosophical question that we, the west, have been debating forever now. Do you prop up a douchebag strongman that can maintain order with a strong fist, or do we assist or back off and let a legit revolution take place?

Of course many people would jump at #2. But there comes a point when you have to think about the greater implications here. This isn't some compartmentalized backwater.

Whatever happens, I hope they find some peace and this doesn't last forever.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not to say I told you so , but...

[Syn7]

Not to say I told you so , but...


"Gotta plow a 4 to appreciate an 8" - Daniel Tosh

;)

[David Jamieson]

There is more there going on than what we know.
A democratically elected leader is ousted by the military in what amounts to a coup and then his party members are persecuted and jailed.
I think the key words that are making people in teh west ok with this action are "Muslim Brotherhood".

the seems to scare the crap out of soccer mom thinkers here. It's easy to sell this action with those words, but if it was reported as is: "Democratically elected leader removed by military after protests"...I don't think people would be ok with that. I'm pretty sure that Morsi was somewhat moderate.

[Scott R. Brown]

The question is not whether there was a coup or not, but "When is it appropriate/acceptable to stage a coup?"

If the elected government leaders are not abiding by the laws of the land by using inappropriate authority to override the constitution, then those who swore to uphold the constitution have a legal and moral responsibility to fulfill their oaths to defend and protect the constitution!

This is what the discussion must address then!

1) Did the government, represented by Morsi, exceed its constitutional powers?

2) If so, who has the power to challenge him?

3) Those with the power then, must be able to justify their actions from a legal stand point!

Coups are never considered legal because, by definition, they are outside the bounds of accepted law, but when the government does not follow the laws they are elected to protect, defend and enforce, do they not then lose their own moral standing to complain when they are forcefully removed from office? :confused:

[David Jamieson]

The question is not whether there was a coup or not, but "When is it appropriate/acceptable to stage a coup?"

If the elected government leaders are not abiding by the laws of the land by using inappropriate authority to override the constitution, then those who swore to uphold the constitution have a legal and moral responsibility to fulfill their oaths to defend and protect the constitution!

This is what the discussion must address then!

1) Did the government, represented by Morsi, exceed its constitutional powers?

2) If so, who has the power to challenge him?

3) Those with the power then, must be able to justify their actions from a legal stand point!

Coups are never considered legal because, by definition, they are outside the bounds of accepted law, but when the government does not follow the laws they are elected to protect, defend and enforce, do they not then lose their own moral standing to complain when they are forcefully removed from office? :confused:

I agree with your 1, 2 and 3 points here Scott. Mainly because they have not been answered as of yet.

[Syn7]

The media, and more specifically the American media, is not really that reliable when it comes to just getting straight facts w/o an opinion anymore. Gone are the days when you get an honest report every the hour on the radio.

I have seen clips of opinions from people on many sides of this and I'm not sure what to believe.

What I do believe is that the real power is was and will continue to be in the hands of those with the attack helicopters. As long as they can get enough people to side with them, that is. But a majority is not needed, just a respectable percentage to help justify taking action, whether it's right or wrong.

It seems that Morsi didn't fulfill his mandate. To me, that is enough for change. Violent change? That's a tough one. If it was within a well established democracy with a strong constitution and all levels of government being represented, I would say NO. But this is something entirely different, IMO. Framing a constitution that will make everyone happy is not an easy task.

Let's not forget that even in the American revolution, 30% of the population didn't want to go to war with the monarchy. A lot of people say that this means 30% supported the king, but I don't believe that. You have to consider all the reasons why people wouldn't want war. We have a bad habit of looking back at things in a way that never actually happened to make ourselves feel better. This thing in egypt is messy and it will continue to be messy, no matter what the truth is.

[David Jamieson]

What I do believe is that the real power is was and will continue to be in the hands of those with the attack helicopters.

This is, was and ever shall be the way it is.

When Pandora's box got opened, it was the only way things were gonna go for us all. History, records, whether simple observation or eloquently worded diatribes show this to be the case.

[SimonM]

There is more there going on than what we know.
A democratically elected leader is ousted by the military in what amounts to a coup and then his party members are persecuted and jailed.
I think the key words that are making people in teh west ok with this action are "Muslim Brotherhood".

the seems to scare the crap out of soccer mom thinkers here. It's easy to sell this action with those words, but if it was reported as is: "Democratically elected leader removed by military after protests"...I don't think people would be ok with that. I'm pretty sure that Morsi was somewhat moderate.

I'm 100% with David on this one.

I don't like Morsi or the Muslim Brotherhood one iota. They're basically the same schtick as the religious right I despise in North America after all - just a different language to the prayers.

That being said, every bit of power the MB has was given to them by legitimate democratic election. To take that power away just because they're total *******s....

It's not the sign of a healthy democracy.

I mean, you don't see the Canadian army deposing Harper.

[David Jamieson]

I mean, you don't see the Canadian army deposing Harper.

To be fair, we're not really making much effort at protesting against him. lol

[Syn7]

I'm 100% with David on this one.

I don't like Morsi or the Muslim Brotherhood one iota. They're basically the same schtick as the religious right I despise in North America after all - just a different language to the prayers.

That being said, every bit of power the MB has was given to them by legitimate democratic election. To take that power away just because they're total *******s....

It's not the sign of a healthy democracy.

I mean, you don't see the Canadian army deposing Harper.

Well, they actually have a ton of international support, especially in the middle east. Even Iran is helping them out. Think about that one. Of course this goes back to sympathies during the revolution, but still. Shiah helping Sunni? That's not something we hear too much about over here in the west.


Ok, Harper is a dick, but come on. Not the same thing.

If he tried to shut down parliament and create a new one that only represented conservatives while simultaneously re-writing the constitution to favour Christian fundamentalists, you can best believe that he would be removed one way or another. Of course that will never happen. We have those checks and balances to prevent that. Egypt does not. Framing a constitution and following one are two completely separate things. They don't have a democracy, they are trying to build one. Huge difference. If anything, this should show us how much we take our own framework for granted.

[SimonM]

To be fair, we're not really making much effort at protesting against him. lol

Frankly I'm at such a loss about who I actually would trust in power at the federal level that I've basically been hiding in municipal activism for the last couple of years.

[SimonM]

If he tried to shut down parliament and create a new one that only represented conservatives while simultaneously re-writing the constitution to favour Christian fundamentalists...

No, he just rigged the election, stacked the unelected senate with his cronies, moved Canada back a century in diplomacy to the time when we were just an armature of Mother England, dismantled our environmental safeguards and started a major campaign to reframe Canadian history from one of the peace-maker to one of the warrior...

Come to think of it perhaps we should be rebelling in the streets.

[Syn7]

No, he just rigged the election, stacked the unelected senate with his cronies, moved Canada back a century in diplomacy to the time when we were just an armature of Mother England, dismantled our environmental safeguards and started a major campaign to reframe Canadian history from one of the peace-maker to one of the warrior...

Come to think of it perhaps we should be rebelling in the streets.

Oh, I totally agree. But unless we show up on the hill by the millions, we're gonna simply have to wait for an election. A non confidence vote is out of the question, unfortunately.

I'm still ****ed over our provincial election in BC. Kind of a throw your hands up scenario. Like... come on. How bad do these people have to screw up? How many scandals is too many? How many criminal charges are too many? How many ethics violations are too many? How many voting ethics violations are too many?

People pigeon hole themselves and just vote the way they always have. It also doesn't help that our conservative(actual) party is called liberal and that they are far more in line with federal conservatives than federal liberals. It's just sad what has happened here. And on top of that we have a waiting to fail petrol state with a douchey conservative government who couldn't balance a budget with solomons gold luring away our talent pool and rendering our population growth entirely dependant on immigration. Not a good look. The one good thing Clark did do was to deny that pipeline. But we all know it will eventually happen. These people have no class, no hustle. Their game is transparent and we still can't take them down. I'll stop here, cause it just never ends.


But it's still better than Egypt;)

[David Jamieson]

maybe a round of late night emergency debates that lead to nothing will solve this!

huzzah! to the library! sorry!

P.S **** skippy it's better than Egypt.

[Drake]

My friends on the inside say the "coup" was necessary. Morsi was on the verge of pulling a Hitler (in terms of power consolidation).

And by inside, I mean, in Egypt. Egyptians.

[xinyidizi]

Isn't giving democracy to savages ironic?

[David Jamieson]

Isn't giving democracy to savages ironic?

savages?

wtf, they're people.

Education destroys poverty and low actions.
THis is what's required. the people of egypt have been under the thumb of dictators, sheiks, occupiers etc. They probably are a pharonic folk and would likely do well within a constitutional monarchy as opposed to a democratic republic which has to come of knowing and free will. It can't be hoisted onto anyone. It is still forming in the USA and they've had it for 237 years!

so that's worth considering.. But I wouldn't call a country of millions "savages". there are savages everywhere. Even in the most developed societies. Leches, low lifes, reprobates criminal scum, you name it and it's right down your street too.

[Drake]

Actually, Egyptians are highly educated and very smart. They've also been around longer than just about anyone else.

[bawang]

Actually, Egyptians are highly educated and very smart. They've also been around longer than just about anyone else.

middle east is done, too much politics. Africa is the future.

[xinyidizi]

So what? Ayman al-Zawahiri is also an educated surgeon. The cultural problems of the Middle East are too complicated. No amount of education and money can make them better.


Not related to this topic but this wedding ceremony is funny:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTgxMzkxODUy.html

[bawang]

Isn't giving democracy to savages ironic?

ur mom is a savage in bed

[xinyidizi]

There is no excuse for having a bad society. The general shape of a society is a reflection of how the majority of the people in that society think. A civilized government won't last in an uncivilized society. An uncivilized government also won't last in a civilized society.

[Syn7]

There is no excuse for having a bad society. The general shape of a society is a reflection of how the majority of the people in that society think. A civilized government won't last in an uncivilized society. An uncivilized government also won't last in a civilized society.

And you get this info from all your Egyption friends? Because the Egyptians I know are quite intelligent.

If you judge the culture by it's least desirable elements, the US ain't lookin' good.

"We beg your pardon, America, because it was not yours to give" - Gil Scott-Heron

Democracy is not yours to give.

You wanna talk about uncivilized? Really? Reflections of the majority? You really wanna open that door? W/O structure and stability, the US could and would descend into chaos real fast.

Most Americans are hard working decent people. The same goes for the rest of the world. You can't paint a whole people with one brush. That is just beyond ignorant.

[TaichiMantis]

There will be no true democracy in the Middle East unless they learn to separate mosque from state.

[xinyidizi]

You wanna talk about uncivilized? Really? Reflections of the majority? You really wanna open that door? W/O structure and stability, the US could and would descend into chaos real fast.


In a Hollywood movie yes but in reality no. It's the people who make the structure and believe in it that make it work not the other way around.

You can give Afghanistan the best structure but if the people are not ready for it as soon as the US stops helping everything will go back to the Taliban era.

[bawang]

In a Hollywood movie yes but in reality no. It's the people who make the structure and believe in it that make it work not the other way around.

You can give Afghanistan the best structure but if the people are not ready for it as soon as the US stops helping everything will go back to the Taliban era.

trayvon martin

[Syn7]

trayvon martin

Katrina...


Why do you think they bring in the guns when disaster strikes? To help people hunt for food?

[Drake]

middle east is done, too much politics. Africa is the future.

Good thing Egypt is part of Africa.

[GeneChing]

The last 'rabaa' flash was mentioned on the World Combat Games thread (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?56878-World-Combat-Games&p=1256862#post1256862) and in our coverage in our MAR+APR 2014 (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/index.php?p=magazine&article=1146) in Wushu Dazzles at St. Petersburg World Combat Games 2013: Gold Medals Shine on China, Russia and Iran By Martha Burr.


Another Egyptian kung fu player flashes Rabaa Sign (http://www.worldbulletin.net/haber/122181/another-egyptian-kung-fu-player-flashes-rabaa-sign)

http://media.worldbulletin.net/250x190/2013/10/28/rabaa.jpg

Walid Hamed, a member of the Egypt's kung fu federation, said that the player would not be penalized because he did not made the gesture during an official game or on the winners' podium.

Another Egyptian kung fu player has flashed a salute that marks the memory of pro-democracy protesters fallen in Rabaa al-Adawiya Square in mid-August, reigniting the controversy about raising the now-iconic symbol by Egyptian athletes.

Hesham Abdel-Hamid raised the "Rabaa Sign" in a show of solidarity with victims of the violent dispersal of a protest camp by supporters of ousted president Mohamed Morsi during a training session of the Egyptian team partaking in the 12th World Wushu Championships in Malaysia.

Walid Hamed, member of the Egyptian kung fu federation, said that the player would not be penalized because he did not made the gesture during an official game or on the winners' podium. The player could not be reached for comment.

Last month, the Egyptian kung fu federation decided to bar one of its promising players from contesting the world championships in Malaysia for flashing the "Rabaa Sign".

Mohamed Youssef made the gesture as he took the stand to receive the gold medal in the international kung fu championship in the Russian city of St. Petersburg while wearing a yellow T-shirt emblazoned with the sign.

Hamed said that the federation head, Sherif Mustafa, warned the players of raising any political slogans during the games or the winners' podium.

Abdel-Hamid would continue in the tournament as he reached the semi-finals, Hamed said.

The "Rabaa" -- meaning four or the fourth in Arabic -- has become the sign of pro-Morsi sit-in camps which were brutally dispersed on August 14. Hundreds of protesters were killed in the brutal crackdown.

[GeneChing]

Egyptian Kung Fu athlete announced dead by ISIS (http://www.kingfut.com/2015/07/07/kungfu-athlete-announced-dead-isis/)
By Marwan Ahmed
Posted on July 7, 2015

http://www.kingfut.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Hesham.jpg

Egyptian Kung Fu athlete Hesham Abdel-Hamid has been announced dead by Islamic State terrorist group.

In a shocking incident in Syria, Egyptian Kung Fu athlete Hesham Abdel-Hamid has been reported dead by ISIS on Monday evening after reportedly taking sides with Syrians in a war between the rebel group and Bashar Al-Asad forces.

Abdel-Hamid put himself in a controversial situation in 2013 after raising the banned Rabaa sign in support of Egypt’s isolated ex-president Mohammed Morsi at the Kung Fu World Championship in Malaysia.

The athlete won the silver medal that year but then was set to be punished for his actions. He later decided to leave to Turkey and from Turkey to Syria.

Hesham’s case wasn’t the first it’s kind as another Kung Fu athlete Mohamed Yousef [pictured below] had publicly expressed his support to the Rabaa case by wearing a t-shirt with the printed logo after winning the golden medal in the Kung Fu World Championship in Russia, and was banned from the game as well as some reports confirming he was sent to prison.

http://www.kingfut.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Mohamed-Yousef.jpg


Such a tragedy.