I'm looking for a strong, heavy monk's spade. Any help?

[Sha Seng]

I read this old thread (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50424), but the OP seemed to want a special monk's spade, instead of just a good one. I, personally, am more interested in durability and weight than flashiness.

Like, one concern of mine is that the weapon's shaft will break. I have no idea what I would do if that happened, but I'm sure it would cost a lot of money to properly fix. Since the weapon will be expensive in the first place, I'd like it to be strong. Maybe a metal shaft would be a good idea? And I'm more interested in training than competition, so I want a heavy spade. I've heard that it's better to learn with a heavy weapon, since improper form will wreck your shoulders and dropping it would, you know, hurt a lot.

So far, all I've been able to find is this one (http://www.wle.com/products/W066-C.html) from WLE. It might be what I'm looking for, but it's hard to tell through a computer screen. I considered paying a forge to make a spade for me, but when I looked into Masterforge Limited - the one mentioned in the thread I linked, that told the OP they could make one for him - all I could find was a dead website. I looked harder and learned that Masterforge's products came from Zheng Wu Knife & Sword Company (reference) (http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.php?82959-Masterforge) in China. I contacted them, and they told me, of course, that the spade I want would be too heavy to export.

And I don't know of any other forges that would know how to make one, let alone actually get it to me.

So yeah, I have no idea what I'm doing. Help please! D:

[Raipizo]

Maybe check around for a metal working shop or something and see if you can work something out? Either that or can't the ends come off of the spade and just be reattached to a heavy metal staff?

[mickey]

Greetings and Welcome to the Forum,

Firstly, you would want to get the ornaments. Martial Arts Mart sells a monk spade that is about 50% heavier than the one offered by WLE and it is a little cheaper.

Secondly, if the weight really is not enough for you you may consider getting a used Olympic bar that you can have a metal worker/welder cut the ends off and weld the ornaments on for you.

Thirdly, and most importantly, the use of heavy weapons requires chi training. Sure, you can muscle it if you want. But if you want the most benefit from such training you should be training chi. The benefits of doing so are those of efficient movement and enhanced body connectivity, as well as improved overall strength.

Then again, you may already be at this level. :)

If not, talk to your Sifu about this.

EDIT: You may want to consider working with an Olympic bar to see if you can handle it to begin with. I have had classmates train pole forms with a standard six foot bar. Even though the standard pole is a good weight, I do not think it is thick enough for what you want to do.


mickey

[David Jamieson]

http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-84cs.html

says it's only 14 pounds.... but I suspect that weight varies a little from piece to piece.

[IronFist]

Thirdly, and most importantly, the use of heavy weapons requires chi training. Sure, you can muscle it if you want. But if you want the most benefit from such training you should be training chi.

Are you suggesting that chi is moving the weapon rather than muscle strength?

@ the OP, an Olympic bar is 45 pounds and just over 7 feet long. It can be fun to play around with but if you do some spinning moves and build up momentum and try to stop too suddenly you may injure your connective tissues (whether you are "training chi" or not).

I don't know how much an Olympic bar would weigh if you cut the ends off.

There are also smaller weight bars (5' I think) that weigh 30 or 35 pounds. Perhaps one of those might be another option.

Unless you absolutely need the metal parts at the end of the weapon, why not just consider a weighted staff?

[mickey]

Greetings IronFist,

Your intention is what causes movement. Period.

Training chi does help greatly. That is as much as I can say.

The person did ask about a heavy weapon. He did not specify a particular weight. He can make that determination when he picks up a bar. If it is too heavy for him he can try something else.


mickey

[MightyB]

For your daily info-tainment...




http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/geekdad/images/2008/04/13/stamoktime.jpg

[Kymus]

For your daily info-tainment...




http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/geekdad/images/2008/04/13/stamoktime.jpg

The monk spade and the melon hammer had a kid..

[GeneChing]

http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-84cs.html

says it's only 14 pounds.... but I suspect that weight varies a little from piece to piece. The last time I checked (and note there is variation from shipment to shipment) most of the weight is in the crescent blade. The spade blade is hollow, but assembled from thick sheets of steel, so it's not light, just not as heavy as it would be if it were solid. We often replace the wood shafts with metal rods as the wood often can't support the heavy weapon heads; those shafts are hollow too, but substantial. Note that we are shifting a lot of our long weapons away from our previous Dragon Well supplier as their mid-range weapons have increased significantly in price and dropping significantly in quality. Dragon Well is moving more towards high-end pieces, and as nice as those are, they tend to wind up as dead stock for us. Observant buyers may have noticed a few of our weapons are now coming from alternate makers.

[Sha Seng]

Hello everyone! Thanks for all the help. I had, somehow, managed to overlook the heavy spade at Martial Arts Mart. That it comes with a metal shaft instead of a wooden one is really nice. It's not exactly traditional, but it's practical.

And now that I think of it...when I asked my teacher about this, he said he had a heavy combat steel one from Tiger Claw, and that he would bring it in one day for me to see. I didn't think to look it up since he'd be showing it to me. It must be this one here. So I'll get a hands-on experience with it. Neat!

I didn't know it, but I happen to have a few various metal bars lying around here, some of which are weightlifting bars. I'll ask my teacher about chi training, and practice staff forms with the bars before I worry about making the spade heavier. Regardless of the semantics, internal practice will help.

Thanks for all the input! And thanks for the insight into the product, Gene!

[GeneChing]

We just got a shipment in but there were no heavy monk spades (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-84cs.html) in that container. It is *not* an item that is slated to be discontinued at this time, and more are expected in the next shipment, but I can't say when for sure. The last version had wood shafts, not metal ones, so it is expected that the next shipment will be the same.

As an aside, I have a metal shaft Monk Spade in my personal collection. It is chrome-plated, which I'm not fond of, but the heads are solid steel, not hollow. While not as heavy as the Dragon Well crescent blade, they are still significant enough to punch through a car door. It's a modern piece but I haven't seen any American vendors importing from that particular maker yet. I should really learn the form... :o

BTW, ever see our Shaolin Special 2005 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=590)? The Featured Weapon (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36807) in that issue is one of the most magnificent monk spades I've ever seen.

[MasterKiller]

So far, all I've been able to find is this one (http://www.wle.com/products/W066-C.html) from WLE. :

This one is too heavy, imo. I've used it a few times.

[Kymus]

While not as heavy as the Dragon Well crescent blade, they are still significant enough to punch through a car door.

Good for when the pizza guy is really a zombie... :p

[GeneChing]

...for zombies.

[Sha Seng]

The last version had wood shafts, not metal ones, so it is expected that the next shipment will be the same.
What! *throws hands up*


As an aside, I have a metal shaft Monk Spade in my personal collection. It is chrome-plated, which I'm not fond of, but the heads are solid steel, not hollow... ...It's a modern piece but I haven't seen any American vendors importing from that particular maker yet.
So what you're saying is that I need to visit China to get what I want. Arggh.


BTW, ever see our Shaolin Special 2005 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=590)? The Featured Weapon (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36807) in that issue is one of the most magnificent monk spades I've ever seen.
I haven't seen that one, but I'll take a look. I've already grabbed a couple of spade-related products (http://i.imgur.com/bYkDrhM.jpg) from the store.


This one is too heavy, imo. I've used it a few times.
Too heavy? But weren't the original spades, that monks actually carried, very heavy? I can't imagine that the commercial versions we have now, that are made by machines from cheaper materials, are actually heavier than the old ones. That thought just seems strange to me.

I mean, I could be wrong. I just want something authentic. I know I'm not as strong as these monks were, but it'd be a goal to work toward, at least.

[MasterKiller]

Too heavy? But weren't the original spades, that monks actually carried, very heavy? I can't imagine that the commercial versions we have now, that are made by machines from cheaper materials, are actually heavier than the old ones. That thought just seems strange to me.

I mean, I could be wrong. I just want something authentic. I know I'm not as strong as these monks were, but it'd be a goal to work toward, at least.

A monk spade is a shovel. How heavy is a shovel, maybe 7 pounds? That one is like 14 pounds and the shovel end is much heavier than the sickle side. It ruins the mobility and fluidity of the weapon and basically turns it into a piece of exercise equipment. Which is fine, if that's what you're after, but you might as well swing a kettlebell around.

[Syn7]

A monk spade is a shovel. How heavy is a shovel, maybe 7 pounds? That one is like 14 pounds and the shovel end is much heavier than the sickle side. It ruins the mobility and fluidity of the weapon and basically turns it into a piece of exercise equipment. Which is fine, if that's what you're after, but you might as well swing a kettlebell around.

My thoughts exactly!

[Sha Seng]

...Oh. Yeah. That makes sense, I guess.

Before I decided what kind of spade I wanted, I tried looking up antique spades so that I'd know what they were originally like. I've always just wanted an authentic one. But when I couldn't find any good information, I somehow got in my head that they were very heavy.

Admittedly, letting the conversation between Lu Zhishen and the blacksmith that made his spade influence my thinking was completely silly.

I don't know why it didn't occur to me to just ask you all what an "authentic" spade would be. Whoops.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Kung Fu is what you make of it. Just because a particular weapon is too much for you should not set the standard for anyone else.

Sha Seng is entitled to have his own experience. It is his road.

By the way....

http://theriverlands.blogspot.com/2008/05/monks-spade.html

The following is not Monk Spade Lite...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-qrz_9tSi8

On heavy weapon training.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ8Z1XOoCOM

Some weapons survived not because of their practicality, but for the health benefits they offer. I admit that there are monk spade forms created for looks only, requiring something light. The monk spade, like the Kwan dao, helps develop the user's strength.

In the Chinese military examination, one was required to do a flower with a 200lb Kwan Dao (some say Tsai Yan Dao) and then spin it overhead.


mickey

[Lucas]

In the Chinese military examination, one was required to do a flower with a 200lb Kwan Dao (some say Tsai Yan Dao) and then spin it overhead.


mickey

only 200lb? what a bunch of sissies.

[MightyB]

only 200lb? what a bunch of sissies.
http://www.thepensivecitadel.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/luzhishen.jpg

[GeneChing]

What! *throws hands up* So what you're saying is that I need to visit China to get what I want. Arggh. Well, you can always modify equipment yourself. Every weapon practitioner should know how to disassemble and assemble their weapon.



I haven't seen that one, but I'll take a look. I've already grabbed a couple of spade-related products (http://i.imgur.com/bYkDrhM.jpg) from the store. The monk spade photo on the back of my Shaolin Trips DVD (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-gc001.html) is the same as the Featured Weapon I spoke of (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1238467#post1238467).



But weren't the original spades, that monks actually carried, very heavy?
I'm not confident there ever were 'original' spades. I brought the development of them as weapons into question in my cover story The Spade, the Whip and the Mountain Gate
(http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1042) in the Shaolin Special 2012 (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1036).


A monk spade is a shovel. This is a great misconception based on popular myth. A shovel is concave, like a spoon, to shovel dirt. A monk spade is flat. Try dig a hole with one. You'll see what I mean rather quickly.


It ruins the mobility and fluidity of the weapon and basically turns it into a piece of exercise equipment. Which is fine, if that's what you're after, but you might as well swing a kettlebell around. This is true of all pole arms. Honestly, when are you going to get the chance to use something like a monk spade for self defense? I know, I know, zombie apocalypse, but that might not come in our lifetimes. I'm not against kettlebell training at all, but personally, I like swinging weapons. It won't save me in the cage or even on the street, but it's fun to me. There's a key sentence in the cover story above "Yanran practices monk spade because it is good for training endurance and long weapon coordination." I enjoy working heavy weapons for the gestalt of it - the endurance, the weight lifting, the coordination - but most of all, I just like swinging weapons around.

[MasterKiller]

This is a great misconception based on popular myth. A shovel is concave, like a spoon, to shovel dirt. A monk spade is flat. Try dig a hole with one. You'll see what I mean rather quickly.
Flat? Hmmm, you mean like this Roman shovel?

http://ids.lib.harvard.edu/ids/view/18725796?width=560&height=560

or this

http://www.okstate.edu/ag/asnr/hortla/needham/Images/equipment/flat_point_shovel.JPG

How about this?

http://obcnw.com/images/products/detail/188.bb_shovel_flat_dish_clip_point.jpg



This is true of all pole arms. Honestly, when are you going to get the chance to use something like a monk spade for self defense? I know, I know, zombie apocalypse, but that might not come in our lifetimes. I'm not against kettlebell training at all, but personally, I like swinging weapons. It won't save me in the cage or even on the street, but it's fun to me. There's a key sentence in the cover story above "Yanran practices monk spade because it is good for training endurance and long weapon coordination." I enjoy working heavy weapons for the gestalt of it - the endurance, the weight lifting, the coordination - but most of all, I just like swinging weapons around.
There's a difference between swinging a weapon around gracefully and swinging a weapon around ungracefully.

You could always substitute your wooden staff for a piece of heavy steel tubing, but it sort of ruins the whole point of it, you know?

[GeneChing]

Sure, that ancient shovel is flat, but it has edges. The monk spade has none. It can't really scoop....unless it's getting pizzas from out of the oven. The other shoves still have some concavity. They aren't truly flat like a monk spade. I suppose that's why we call it a spade, not a shovel. But spade heads are usually set at an angle, so it's still unresolved.

There's a difference between doing anything gracefully and ungracefully, even posting here on the forum. ;)

I used to work my staff form with solid iron bar, back when I was a *ahem* younger man. It didn't really work for BSL staff because there were so many long jabs, but it was fun and informative. The blades of a pole arm forces you to have one more degree of coordination because if your blade isn't oriented properly, you can stab your shin. I remember tearing up so many pairs of Kung Fu pants when I first learned Kwan Dao (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-88.html). The back hook used to catch on the blousing portion near the ankle.

[Lucas]

for some reason i think i remember reading and article that had a monk with an antique spade he was showing. Gene?

[MasterKiller]

I used to work my staff form with solid iron bar, back when I was a *ahem* younger man. It didn't really work for BSL staff because there were so many long jabs, but it was fun and informative.

This is retarded CMA mentality.

"If a 3 minute horse stance is perfectly adequate for conditioning, why not do it for a whole hour!!"

[GeneChing]

Wait, you're talking about the Featured Weapon (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1238467#post1238467), right? Actually, the wielder was not a monk. He believed his monk spade dated back to the Qing. Maybe it did.

I should qualify my point about monk spades. There is evidence of them existing as far back as the Ming, but there are some confounding factors as to its authenticity as a weapon, specifically temple (or ritual) weapons and opera weapons. That being said, it's a bit like our Shaolin Boxing before 1780 thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66021). Sure, Shaolin martial arts probably don't go all the way back to Tamo and Monk Spades probably don't go all the way back to Xuanzhang, but they potentially go as far back as the early Qing. In Western terms, that is as potentially far back as the founding of the United States of America. So when I postulate that the Monk Spade may not be as old as it claims to be, it still might be pretty old, unlike say, the Nandao, which is modern, created only a few years ago (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1087). With so much discord between modern and traditional in America, it's easy to get confused about when the cut-off for such a distinction is made; that cut-off is case dependent.


This is retarded CMA mentality.

"If a 3 minute horse stance is perfectly adequate for conditioning, why not do it for a whole hour!!" Experimentation is retarded? It's not like we did iron bar conditioning every class. It wasn't a part of regular training, just a diversion every once in a while to keep it fresh. I've never done hour-long horse stance, nor did I do really long sessions regularly, but I did do some duration horse stance sessions, again, just to push myself.

[Alex Córdoba]

...Oh. Yeah. That makes sense, I guess.

Before I decided what kind of spade I wanted, I tried looking up antique spades so that I'd know what they were originally like. I've always just wanted an authentic one. But when I couldn't find any good information, I somehow got in my head that they were very heavy.

Admittedly, letting the conversation between Lu Zhishen and the blacksmith that made his spade influence my thinking was completely silly.

I don't know why it didn't occur to me to just ask you all what an "authentic" spade would be. Whoops.

Here is monk Shi De Chao performing with his favorite' because it's actually not a weapon:

http://vimeo.com/661545

[GeneChing]

I was at that event (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=840646#post840646), but I missed Dechao by a day.

[Alex Córdoba]

I was at that event (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=840646#post840646), but I missed Dechao by a day.

I love the last 'hooooooooooiiiii'

[Sha Seng]

Thanks for those links, Mickey! I wasn't only concerned with weight for what I thought was authenticity's sake, so it's nice to see that my heavy weapon training idea wasn't so unrealistic. You know, given time. I'd read about it some, but I hadn't actually seen it done like this until now.


The monk spade photo on the back of my Shaolin Trips DVD (http://www.martialartsmart.com/dvd-gc001.html) is the same as the Featured Weapon I spoke of (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1238467#post1238467).
Oh! In that case, I can't wait for the magazine to arrive. I really wanted to get a closer look at that spade.


I'm not confident there ever were 'original' spades.
I did read your article about the questionable history of the monk's spade, but regardless of how or why they came about, there were originals. Like, ones that were made by blacksmiths for martial artists before everything became so commercialized. Maybe I shouldn't have said "that monks actually carried", but you understand.

It doesn't actually bother me a bit that these weapons might be a product of nothing but popular legend. If anything, I think that makes them more interesting. I like spades so much because of the ideas associated with them - that they were tools for helping people before they were tools for hurting people. You know, like, weeding crops, or digging out foundations for houses, or burying the dead. I'm new to all of this, but the monks who invented these martial arts were Buddhist, right? And isn't the whole point of Buddhism compassion? So monk's spades, even if they were never really used, seem to embody that nicely.

I don't really care if they're practical weapons or not. When will I be in a situation where I need to defend myself with any kung fu weapon? As an aside, I find it ridiculous that someone said these would be good for killing zombies. But it is true that practicing with a big, heavy weapon would improve my strength and coordination, which would help me use any hand-to-hand weapon more effectively, including those I might actually have nearby in a pinch. (http://youtu.be/rYbCuarCTzc?t=1m8s)

*steps off of soapbox*

EDIT:


Here is monk Shi De Chao performing with his favorite' because it's actually not a weapon:

http://vimeo.com/661545
Oh, hey, I missed this post. ...That is a very intimidating man... But what do you mean? It's his favorite because it's not a weapon? Like, how so?

[bawang]

Thanks for those links, Mickey! I wasn't only concerned with weight for what I thought was authenticity's sake.



monk spade is not a heavy weapon.
LOL U FAIL

[Golden Arms]

monk spade is not a REAL weapon.

I fixed that for you guys.

[bawang]

I fixed that for you guys.

your mother is not a real weapon

[Syn7]

We still use spades today for gardening and farming. You can find one at the hardware store and you can see the similarities. And given that most people believe that many of the "traditional" weapons were whatever they had at hand, it stands to reason that it started with the farm tool and evolved into all that ornamental stuff over time. First just beefing it up to make it a better weapon, since you already learned spade and all. Then adding all the features as time went on. No?

So wouldn't an "authentic" spade simply be that farm tool? And like all tools back then, I'm sure there were a few variations and innovations as well. I mean for actual farming.


I can appreciate using heavy things for strength, but in actual use, something you can move easily, smoothly, fast and with precision would be ideal, no?

Do you think monks had fighting spades and training spades? One strong but light and balanced perfectly and one big and klunky to work out with? You can build strength and condition yourself with the big one, and train speed and spar with the combat version? I'm just guessing here, but that would make sense to me.

Wasn't the first MA's in Shaolin imported from the people who came there? Teaching the techniques they used and fostered for actual defense? So why not a farmer joining up and being like "oh yeah and we have had success in using this tool for defense, here is how we use it"???

[bawang]

We still use spades today for gardening and farming. You can find one at the hardware store and you can see the similarities. And given that most people believe that many of the "traditional" weapons were whatever they had at hand, it stands to reason that it started with the farm tool and evolved into all that ornamental stuff over time. First just beefing it up to make it a better weapon, since you already learned spade and all. Then adding all the features as time went on. No?

So wouldn't an "authentic" spade simply be that farm tool? And like all tools back then, I'm sure there were a few variations and innovations as well. I mean for actual farming.


I can appreciate using heavy things for strength, but in actual use, something you can move easily, smoothly, fast and with precision would be ideal, no?

Do you think monks had fighting spades and training spades? One strong but light and balanced perfectly and one big and klunky to work out with? You can build strength and condition yourself with the big one, and train speed and spar with the combat version? I'm just guessing here, but that would make sense to me.

Wasn't the first MA's in Shaolin imported from the people who came there? Teaching the techniques they used and fostered for actual defense? So why not a farmer joining up and being like "oh yeah and we have had success in using this tool for defense, here is how we use it"???

no.
sdfsddgdfgdfg

[David Jamieson]

Originally it was a tool. Just a shovel.
However, it is fair to say that it's been around at least since the 1600's where it appears in story telling at the very least as the Yueyachan (the crescent moon end monks spade).
Originally had only utilitarian purpose, like digging holes to bury the dead, picking up waste, etc.

[Syn7]

no.
sdfsddgdfgdfg

Nutshell it for me then. I don't really have time to dig myself, but I'm curious.

[Alex Córdoba]

Oh, hey, I missed this post. ...That is a very intimidating man... But what do you mean? It's his favorite because it's not a weapon? Like, how so?

There are different videos of this presentation of Guarglia's Temple of Zen photo-book, which is lovely, I wish he had paired with a writer. In one of this videos I have heard him say that this is his favorite 'tool' 'shovel' or however you would call it, because it is not an actual weapon.

My assumption is that monks never fought with it, maybe it was used for cooking pizzas, but eventually became kind of a banner.

[mawali]

I tried that at a tournament once but to no avail! Practice vs pajama show, what's in you wallet?:D
Everyone was using the Teflon / aluminum blade with all the noises and the shiny stuff while I was using a heavier not as shiny, without the tassel jian and I did a decent job with my form but I ended up in 7th place. I knew I did great so I continue to use my inglorious jian (dao also) due to the weigh and the effort I use to make the various hand movements.

I tell a few students I may have, to use the tools in their garage approximating some of the 'wushu' instruments because in real life that is the weight that you will use, if and when, such common tools will be used. I have used a ho(s):D the garden variety (pun intended, pitch fork, and even the wide snowshovel push tool to practice just because it was part of adapting to the environment. Sometime, I am just too absurd and obtuse for my own good, nonetheless!

[Sha Seng]

Originally it was a tool. Just a shovel. ... Originally had only utilitarian purpose, like digging holes to bury the dead, picking up waste, etc.

In one of this videos I have heard him say that this is his favorite 'tool' 'shovel' or however you would call it, because it is not an actual weapon. ... Eventually became kind of a banner.

If anything, I think that makes them more interesting. I like spades so much because of the ideas associated with them - that they were tools for helping people before they were tools for hurting people.
I am pleased.

Also, my order arrived! Now I have all three Kung Fu Magazines with information on spades, the First World Traditional Wushu Festival DVD so I can see that guy slinging around his antique spade, and the Shaolin Monk Spade DVD so I can see Shi Yanran doing his thing. I hope you're happy, Gene.

This is all very informative. Yes, I'm enthusiastic.

Oh dang. That antique monk's spade is at least 100 years old and 35 pounds heavy. That's...yeah. Informative. o_o;

[bawang]

Nutshell it for me then. I don't really have time to dig myself, but I'm curious.

the sun moon shovel is a fantasy weapon created by Chinese opera.

[MightyB]

the sun moon shovel is a fantasy weapon created by Chinese opera.

I think the biggest key to the validity of this statement is that there's no way you could realistically dig any ground with that big arse half moon blade on the handle.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I have seen smaller spade designs, making the "weight issue" depend entirely on the weight of the shaft and not the weight of the ornaments.


mickey

[Syn7]

Sure. But I'm pretty sure I could wreak some havoc with an ordinary western style garden spade! So If I happen to be edging my lawn when some dbag gets aggressive with me... well, you know where I'm going with this. ;)

[David Jamieson]

the sun moon shovel is a fantasy weapon created by Chinese opera.

I thought it was from Journey to the West or Tales from the water margin? Maybe even Romance from the 3 kingdoms?
old xia novels. But hey, it makes sense because those and others were eventually expressed as opera as well.

Hey, just curious, but have you ever sat through a entire chinese opera?

[bawang]

I think the biggest key to the validity of this statement is that there's no way you could realistically dig any ground with that big arse half moon blade on the handle.

the flat shovel is called latrine shovel. its used to shovel feces.

the crescent is called emei spear. its good for slide up another spear shaft and cut your fingers.

[Kellen Bassette]

Sure. But I'm pretty sure I could wreak some havoc with an ordinary western style garden spade! So If I happen to be edging my lawn when some dbag gets aggressive with me... well, you know where I'm going with this. ;)

Absolutely. On masonry crews, the masons have trowels, laborers have a flat shovel. There are many stories of these tools being used as weapons on the job...ppl have been knocked out with shovels and I know a guy who was involved in an ear cutting incident with a trowel....also know someone who almost beat a guy to death with a level and I've had framing hammers pulled on me....I imagine this sort of thing happened in the old days as well....

[Syn7]

Absolutely. On masonry crews, the masons have trowels, laborers have a flat shovel. There are many stories of these tools being used as weapons on the job...ppl have been knocked out with shovels and I know a guy who was involved in an ear cutting incident with a trowel....also know someone who almost beat a guy to death with a level and I've had framing hammers pulled on me....I imagine this sort of thing happened in the old days as well....

On a tower I was doing about 7 years ago there was this giant tin basher who picked a fight with this little thuggish rodbuster. Man I saw it coming from a mile away. Don't start stuff with a thug carrying a framing hammer. It did not end well. But we did get an early lunch from slab on a hot day. So that was cool.

[Kellen Bassette]

But we did get an early lunch from slab on a hot day. So that was cool.

As long as everything worked out....:cool:

[Syn7]

As long as everything worked out....:cool:

Well, it did for me anyways. :)

Not so much for the guy who went to the hospital and the guy who went to jail. :rolleyes:

[GeneChing]

Also, my order arrived! Now I have all three Kung Fu Magazines with information on spades, the First World Traditional Wushu Festival DVD so I can see that guy slinging around his antique spade, and the Shaolin Monk Spade DVD so I can see Shi Yanran doing his thing. I hope you're happy, Gene. Yes this makes me very happy. Thank you Sha Seng. We need more forum members like you here.


the sun moon shovel is a fantasy weapon created by Chinese opera. I'm inclined to agree. And I hate it when I agree with bawang.


I thought it was from Journey to the West or Tales from the water margin? Maybe even Romance from the 3 kingdoms?
old xia novels. But hey, it makes sense because those and others were eventually expressed as opera as well.

Hey, just curious, but have you ever sat through a entire chinese opera?
I've sat through many whole operas. But then, I enjoy opera. Part of the point of my cover story (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=1042) was that if you look at the original source material, specifically Journey to the West and Water Margin, the weapons described don't quite fit what we have now (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-84cs.html). I would venture to say that both opera and religious ritual weapons had a tremendous impact upon many of the long weapons (http://www.martialartsmart.com/weapons-chinese-weapons-long-weapons.html) commonly used in Chinese martial arts today. For opera, the weapons evolved to be cartoonish and caricature, so they might be easily read from stage. For religious ritual, they were imbued with all sorts of symbolic adornments. That being said, there is some evidence that once these weapon designs were established, they were indeed used for self-defense. And this might have happened centuries ago, so while their origins might be fantastic, at some point, they may have become practical.

Of course, this is all conjecture, as the evidence for this is rather circumstantial. There is this trend to view things as 'real' or 'fake' but anyone who has studied sinology to some depth realizes quickly that there are often complications, that Chinese culture doesn't simplify so neatly.

As for the outrageously heavy weapons, that does have a lot of precedent in classic novels and myth. Guan Gong's Kwandao (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-81cs.html) was super heavy, as was Sagacious Lu's spade. Today, we can easily attribute this to mythic exaggeration. However, the practice of working absurdly heavy weapons has a longstanding tradition within Chinese acrobatics. Detractors might say 'that's impractical' but keep in mind that opera connection, along with the idea that 'kung fu' doesn't literally mean 'martial arts'; It means time-honed skill. The idea of working long weapons for practical self-defense is obsolete today. If you make the 'lighter weapons are more practical' argument, you might as well be working with graphite (http://www.martialartsmart.com/27-k.html). I love watching someone work a super heavy long weapon. That's some serious skill.