Wing Chun on the Floor

[chaotic2k]

How effective is your wing chun on the floor if by chance someone takes you down? Do you feel the need to cross train and include grappling in your training or do you feel wing chun can hold its own on the cobbles?

Be interested to hear different points of view.


Peace ;)

[k gledhill]

How effective is your wing chun on the floor if by chance someone takes you down? Do you feel the need to cross train and include grappling in your training or do you feel wing chun can hold its own on the cobbles?

Be interested to hear different points of view.


Peace ;)

Depends who you're on the ground with. Knowing what to do on the ground varies from wrestling to Bjj. Wrestling doesn't address being on their backs , Bjj lives on its back. I do Bjj and x train with my vt , they flow into each other naturally, but vt is not Bjj and vice versa. My wrestling students like to know guard ideas from Bjj.

Fighting out of a ring/cage involves random chaos with multiple opponents and being kicked into a coma very easily. VT in this must not go down if avoidable environment is very efficient.

[MightyB]

How effective is your wing chun on the floor if by chance someone takes you down? Do you feel the need to cross train and include grappling in your training or do you feel wing chun can hold its own on the cobbles?

Be interested to hear different points of view.


Peace ;)


http://www.kwokwingchun.com/img/assets/sam-kwok-and-carlson-gracie.jpg

[MightyB]

You're probably wondering who the heck those people are,

That's Wing Chun Grand Master Samuel Kwok, and the Late BJJ MMA Pioneer and Grand Master, Carlson Gracie.

[chaotic2k]

You're probably wondering who the heck those people are,

That's Wing Chun Grand Master Samuel Kwok, and BJJ Pioneer and Grand Master, Carlson Gracie.


I know who they are. Im more interested on your own experience. I know dam kwok needs all the help he can get since is wing chun has slways been questionable. :p

[MightyB]

I know who they are. Im more interested on your own experience. I know dam kwok needs all the help he can get since is wing chun has slways been questionable. :p

I can't say anything because I have no Wing Chun experience darn it all!!!! I need to learn some so I can hang with you guys. You have all the fun on this forum. :):D:):D


But I did find that the groundwork and cross training in Judo did help my personal understanding of 7* Mantis. But I can't contribute anymore in this particular forum because I don't know much if anything about WC. :(

[Graham H]

I know dam kwok needs all the help he can get since is wing chun has slways been questionable. :p

LOL True!

BTW that's "grandmaster" Sam Kwok! :D

[KPM]

IMHO what little ground work that is inherent in Wing Chun is just enough to keep off an untrained street hoodlum so you can get back to your feet. Anyone that thinks it can function on par with wrestling or BJJ or some other dedicated ground-fighting method is deluding themselves. So if someone is worried about the potential of facing an opponent/attacker with a bit of "know-how" on the ground, they should do a bit of cross-training in a ground-fighting method. Even if its just enough to learn how to defend well against a takedown.

[Sean66]

Come on guys, you don't need to train any ground fighting when you've got Wing Tsun Takedown Defense:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c8SAHJ7C6U

[chaotic2k]

I can't say anything because I have no Wing Chun experience darn it all!!!! I need to learn some so I can hang with you guys. You have all the fun on this forum. :):D:):D


But I did find that the groundwork and cross training in Judo did help my personal understanding of 7* Mantis. But I can't contribute anymore in this particular forum because I don't know much if anything about WC. :(

Well tell me why judo helped you Chut Xing Tong Long? Why did u choose to cross train and does your Tang Lang work on the floor alone?

[chaotic2k]

Depends who you're on the ground with. Knowing what to do on the ground varies from wrestling to Bjj. Wrestling doesn't address being on their backs , Bjj lives on its back. I do Bjj and x train with my vt , they flow into each other naturally, but vt is not Bjj and vice versa. My wrestling students like to know guard ideas from Bjj.

Fighting out of a ring/cage involves random chaos with multiple opponents and being kicked into a coma very easily. VT in this must not go down if avoidable environment is very efficient.

Agree....

Its worst place to be on the ground and everything needs to be about keeping up and making sure your stand up is enough to keep you alive. Since ground is such a bad place to go, then you gotta know how to fight on ground. No better way of fighting on your back the bjj.

[MightyB]

Well tell me why judo helped you Chut Xing Tong Long? Why did u choose to cross train and does your Tang Lang work on the floor alone?

I moved because of work and, sans Kung Fu, I chose Judo because I always had an interest in it.

The result:

Standing... my throws and takedowns became stronger and more varied immediately and I was able to see the leverage that was inherent in the 7* system and play with the setups. Judo Randori put me in unpredictable - quazi violent situations and my takedown defense got way better because of it.

There wasn't a comparison on the ground - 7* didn't have anything to deal with competitive grappling in an Apples to Apples way. All 7* could hope to do is dirty stuff... groin pinching, biting, etc. Once I started grappling, I understood position, leverage, dominance, defense, and escapes... but again, because I learned those, I now feel I can escape and get up in most situations... or keep it on the ground if I have the advantage.

[chaotic2k]

I moved because of work and, sans Kung Fu, I chose Judo because I always had an interest in it.

The result:

Standing... my throws and takedowns became stronger and more varied immediately and I was able to see the leverage that was inherent in the 7* system and play with the setups. Judo Randori put me in unpredictable - quazi violent situations and my takedown defense got way better because of it.

There wasn't a comparison on the ground - 7* didn't have anything to deal with competitive grappling in an Apples to Apples way. All 7* could hope to do is dirty stuff... groin pinching, biting, etc. Once I started grappling, I understood position, leverage, dominance, defense, and escapes... but again, because I learned those, I now feel I can escape and get up in most situations... or keep it on the ground if I have the advantage.


Cool. Interesting. ;)

[k gledhill]

Come on guys, you don't need to train any ground fighting when you've got Wing Tsun Takedown Defense:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c8SAHJ7C6U

Hmmmmm ; )

[k gledhill]

I moved because of work and, sans Kung Fu, I chose Judo because I always had an interest in it.

The result:

Standing... my throws and takedowns became stronger and more varied immediately and I was able to see the leverage that was inherent in the 7* system and play with the setups. Judo Randori put me in unpredictable - quazi violent situations and my takedown defense got way better because of it.

There wasn't a comparison on the ground - 7* didn't have anything to deal with competitive grappling in an Apples to Apples way. All 7* could hope to do is dirty stuff... groin pinching, biting, etc. Once I started grappling, I understood position, leverage, dominance, defense, and escapes... but again, because I learned those, I now feel I can escape and get up in most situations... or keep it on the ground if I have the advantage.

Simple ideas from where not to place arms how to mount or guard go a long way to avoid things. Also mma variations rather than sport ground vary too.
I have used up kicks from experience sparring, in bar fights. But instead of a comfort zone of a " duel " you get your arse up ASAP.

[MightyB]

I now have visions of doing a choreographed fight for an upcoming 24 hour film fest where one guy is either going to go for a mount or knee on belly on a downed fighter, and the down fighter turtles up a little to protect his head and reaches in and grabs the other guy's nards with a death grip from haides and the up guy screaming like a woman trying desperately to get up and away from the guy's death grip.

[Sean66]

I agree 100% Kev.

Simple ideas from BJJ go a long way against your average Joe with no experience.

Personally, I think that anyone interested self-defence should learn a few basic things like 1) how to fall correctly 2) how best to position oneself on the ground against a standing attacker 3) how to get up safely 4) how to escape the mount. This stuff is easy to learn, and fun (IMO).

You can certainly add to this list, like how to escape side mount or pass guard, and a few simple takedowns and submissions, but I think for most people the above is enough.

I think there are a lot of programs out there, like Gracie Combatives or Tim Cartmell's Ground Proofing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqNTbySfSD0 that address ground fighting for da streetz.

Better to study something like this than to try to make up some "wing chun" ground fighting.

[Grumblegeezer]

Kevin's response to the clip featuring Michael Casey demonstrating "WingTsun defense against takedowns..."


Hmmmmm ; )

Kevin, for once you were actually too kind. And I'm saying that as a guy that spent a long time in the WT organization. I've met Michael Casey. He is a gifted athlete and very tough (he was Emin's training partner for quite a while and Emin can be rough on his partners).

Nevertheless, those "takedown defenses" are actually painful to watch and even more embarrassing than those pink pajamas.

My opinion? If you wan't to be good on the ground, X-train with people who really know what they are doing. Absolutely. I admit that I don't do that these days, but only because I'm getting older and have been racking up too many injuries. But that's my problem. There are guys out there older than me that can still take the punishment. God bless 'em.

[k gledhill]

I agree 100% Kev.

Simple ideas from BJJ go a long way against your average Joe with no experience.

Personally, I think that anyone interested self-defence should learn a few basic things like 1) how to fall correctly 2) how best to position oneself on the ground against a standing attacker 3) how to get up safely 4) how to escape the mount. This stuff is easy to learn, and fun (IMO).

You can certainly add to this list, like how to escape side mount or pass guard, and a few simple takedowns and submissions, but I think for most people the above is enough.

I think there are a lot of programs out there, like Gracie Combatives or Tim Cartmell's Ground Proofing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqNTbySfSD0 that address ground fighting for da streetz.

Better to study something like this than to try to make up some "wing chun" ground fighting.

Yeah, good list. In judo training we did falling in all manner of ways. To make it " fun" we would run, jump ,roll, over several students. Never used it in a fight yet
; ) but I have seen systema guys use the run drop& roll as an entry from long distances to an armed perp. Counterintuitive IMO : ) I would drop and roll away Fast ! Hah

[Grumblegeezer]

As Sean66 stated:

"I think there are a lot of programs out there, like Gracie Combatives or Tim Cartmell's Ground Proofing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqNTbySfSD0 that address ground fighting for da streetz.

Better to study something like this than to try to make up some "wing chun" ground fighting."

So why do so many WC groups try to make up their own clumsy groundwork? Ego and money, I'd say.

[chaotic2k]

As Sean66 stated:

"I think there are a lot of programs out there, like Gracie Combatives or Tim Cartmell's Ground Proofing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqNTbySfSD0 that address ground fighting for da streetz.

Better to study something like this than to try to make up some "wing chun" ground fighting."

So why do so many WC groups try to make up their own clumsy groundwork? Ego and money, I'd say.


I think alot of it is ego. Alot of wing chunners are self loving "grandmasters" and all that bull. I mean look at Cheung when Emin beat him with a take down and punches. Cheung created all kinds of Anti Grappling stuff. Obviously Wing Tsun LTD had to have its own answers to grappling after wing chun was proven to lack any decent ground game and MMa started to gain popularity.
All this is damaging to what the outside world see as wing chun.
Wing chun is what it is. Its a really effective fighting style that can really work but it lacks ground control and thats vital. If your secure on the ground then your stand up game is confident.

[chaotic2k]

I now have visions of doing a choreographed fight for an upcoming 24 hour film fest where one guy is either going to go for a mount or knee on belly on a downed fighter, and the down fighter turtles up a little to protect his head and reaches in and grabs the other guy's nards with a death grip from haides and the up guy screaming like a woman trying desperately to get up and away from the guy's death grip.

Why not just turn it into a porno you stick insect! ;)

[chaotic2k]

LOL True!

BTW that's "grandmaster" Sam Kwok! :D

Haha mental. I remember the days he was called just "Master" . What happened!!! What is it old leung ting calls himself.... "great almighty One"?? These people!!!

[k gledhill]

Haha mental. I remember the days he was called just "Master" . What happened!!! What is it old leung ting calls himself.... "great almighty One"?? These people!!!

Pompous titles. Student to teacher, " What do I call you ? " teacher replies " O' Great one " hahahahha!

[KPM]

Come on guys, you don't need to train any ground fighting when you've got Wing Tsun Takedown Defense:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c8SAHJ7C6U

Has this guy even ever watched an MMA bout? :confused: Once a good grappler has ahold of your legs, its too late! All you have to do is watch a few UFC's to see some tough guys take a hellavu knee shot that is far more significant than any of the punches thrown in that clip and STILL manage to get the takedown! But then, I realize I'm preaching to the choir here! ;)

[EternalSpring]

In the past year or so I've really come to see how my ground game in Ving Tsun up to this point was really just a form of scrapping that, at least as of yet, can't hold it's own against people who actually train grappling, especially since my own window of opportunity once things were on the ground was really short.

I started cross training Silat and a little bit of wrestling "concepts" with other people to get more educated. Now I'm going to see if I can start these Shuai Jiao lessons I found in Brooklyn, hopefully it's still going on there. Eventually, I think I'd want to learn some BJJ too. Personally I'm most excited about Shuai Jiao. The way I see it, even if all the techniques we need are all within our respective primary systems/styles/etc, it doesn't hurt to cross train because (in addition to many benefits) it might even open up your eyes to applications in your main system that you couldn't see before.

[tc101]

Depends who you're on the ground with. Knowing what to do on the ground varies from wrestling to Bjj. Wrestling doesn't address being on their backs , Bjj lives on its back. I do Bjj and x train with my vt , they flow into each other naturally, but vt is not Bjj and vice versa. My wrestling students like to know guard ideas from Bjj.

Fighting out of a ring/cage involves random chaos with multiple opponents and being kicked into a coma very easily. VT in this must not go down if avoidable environment is very efficient.

Wrestling is more concerned with taking the opponent down and not getting taken down than anything else and the main part of the ground is riding and escapes since pins occur infrequently.

Bjj is concerned with submissions on the ground. Bjj does not as I have learned it live off its back as you put it.

So wrestling and bjj have fairly different skill sets that compliment each other.

Wing chun is a pure stand up system like boxing.

In fighting as in life hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

[chaotic2k]

Wrestling is more concerned with taking the opponent down and not getting taken down than anything else and the main part of the ground is riding and escapes since pins occur infrequently.

Bjj is concerned with submissions on the ground. Bjj does not as I have learned it live off its back as you put it.

So wrestling and bjj have fairly different skill sets that compliment each other.

Wing chun is a pure stand up system like boxing.

In fighting as in life hope for the best and prepare for the worst.


Wrestling has many forms. Freestyle is great for lower body take downs and getting the top position. Does has escapes from back positions but Bjj is king for fighting from your back. That is fact. Bjj does have a strong top game considering a full mount is the highest svore you can get in.comps. I feel bjj is best to compliment my wing chun. Wing chun is not stand up like boxing. Its fishing for the central core and fighting at clinch range. A boxer is better with his hands at boxing. Wing chun is a king of in fighting.

Thai boxing and boxing are there own babies and leathel but not the same range or thinking as good wing chun. Peace

[tc101]

Wrestling has many forms. Freestyle is great for lower body take downs and getting the top position. Does has escapes from back positions but Bjj is king for fighting from your back. That is fact.


Do you train bjj? Your initial question I assumed you did not. I have about 10 years in bjj with some interruptions due to active duty.

If you mean bjj has highly developed the guard that is true.



Bjj does have a strong top game considering a full mount is the highest svore you can get in.comps. I feel bjj is best to compliment my wing chun.


Bjj has an entire ground game that was my point since it is concerned with submission grappling. Whereas wrestling whether freestyle or Greco os more concerned with the takedown game although it has limited ground.



Wing chun is not stand up like boxing. Its fishing for the central core and fighting at clinch range. A boxer is better with his hands at boxing. Wing chun is a king of in fighting.

Thai boxing and boxing are there own babies and leathel but not the same range or thinking as good wing chun. Peace

Of course boxing and wing chun are two different ways of stand up fighting. I only meant that boxing is not for ground and neither is wing chun.

[Vajramusti]

Just my opinion of course...but as with politics, in WC you are either a 'liberal' or a 'conservative' WRT applying the abstract nature of the system to "other than standing up" situations. I have found WC concepts and principles apply to either vertical or horizontal. I do however agree very much that it (ground) is not WC's strongest attribute and therefore I focus on "not being taken down".
Many years ago I walked into a BJJ/grapplers school and started to figure out that WC's "tools" and "methods" are highly adaptable. In the military I also used WC on the ground to 'release' certain holds by grapplers before I "tapped, snapped, or napped". haha
So, I guess I am saying to the original post'er that I do not feel any cross training is required. Familiarizing yourself with other arts to discover any perceived weak points is one thing, but I prefer to keep WC the way it is, and make the concepts and methods work for me in whatever environment.
Just my opinion of course; others may agree or disagree.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Agree!!

[Vajramusti]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Agree!!
I know there are different views on this. Best to learn one's own game well and play it well.
Ok by me if there are different views,

[chaotic2k]

Just my opinion of course...but as with politics, in WC you are either a 'liberal' or a 'conservative' WRT applying the abstract nature of the system to "other than standing up" situations. I have found WC concepts and principles apply to either vertical or horizontal. I do however agree very much that it (ground) is not WC's strongest attribute and therefore I focus on "not being taken down".
Many years ago I walked into a BJJ/grapplers school and started to figure out that WC's "tools" and "methods" are highly adaptable. In the military I also used WC on the ground to 'release' certain holds by grapplers before I "tapped, snapped, or napped". haha
So, I guess I am saying to the original post'er that I do not feel any cross training is required. Familiarizing yourself with other arts to discover any perceived weak points is one thing, but I prefer to keep WC the way it is, and make the concepts and methods work for me in whatever environment.
Just my opinion of course; others may agree or disagree.


Many moons ago i hated bjj. I believed that the concepts of my wing chun would save me on the ground. Fixed elbow positions, sensativity and dirty fighting. I decided to go to a Bjj school and to further developy anti bjj ideas :p Funnily enough that first lesson was a real light bulb moment. I was getting tapped out by skinny dudes and evrn little kids!! I realised that there was something in this.
People are right though, even gaining a understanding of basic Bjj can help alot. ;)

[chaotic2k]

Do you train bjj? Your initial question I assumed you did not. I have about 10 years in bjj with some interruptions due to active duty.

If you mean bjj has highly developed the guard that is true.



Bjj has an entire ground game that was my point since it is concerned with submission grappling. Whereas wrestling whether freestyle or Greco os more concerned with the takedown game although it has limited ground.



Of course boxing and wing chun are two different ways of stand up fighting. I only meant that boxing is not for ground and neither is wing chun.


No worries bro. ;)

[Paddington]

[...]

That's Wing Chun Grand Master Samuel Kwok, [...]

Whenever I see the words 'grand master' and 'Kwok' in the same sentence, that scene from 'the life of Brian' rapidly fills my mind; "He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy".

[Paddington]

[...] I remember the days he was called just "Master" . What happened!!! [...].

If I were to take a guess I would say the following is likely. When those who have previously been your juniors become elevated to the rank of 'masters' by your old teachers, and if you feel you are still superior, then you may be inclined to call yourself a grandmaster.

[chaotic2k]

.

If I were to take a guess I would say the following is likely. When those who have previously been your juniors become elevated to the rank of 'masters' by your old teachers, and if you feel you are still superior, then you may be inclined to call yourself a grandmaster.


So your a master conformist. Man its all ego and bull. How can anyone be a master of anything... This is the problem with Wing chun and why you have so many clowns and has beens. A wise man once said "its not where your from but where your at!".

Peace paddy bear ;)

[KPM]

I don't like all the tossing around of grand titles either. But the root of it is in the Chinese language. "Sifu" is more like "fatherly teacher" than "master." "Sigung" is therefore "grand-fatherly teacher" buy now becomes "grandmaster." But really, being a "Sigung" only really implies that you have produced students that have been around long enough and are good enough to produce their own students. Its more like "grand-teacher" than "grand-master." But even the Chinese now give it all this inflated meaning and toss titles around like they were ranks in the military. Gotta keep that rice bowl full! ;)

[tc101]

Many moons ago i hated bjj. I believed that the concepts of my wing chun would save me on the ground. Fixed elbow positions, sensativity and dirty fighting. I decided to go to a Bjj school and to further developy anti bjj ideas :p Funnily enough that first lesson was a real light bulb moment. I was getting tapped out by skinny dudes and evrn little kids!! I realised that there was something in this.
People are right though, even gaining a understanding of basic Bjj can help alot. ;)

Perhaps wing chun has some skills that will work on the ground things like releases and so forth. The problem is exactly what you describe that submission grappling is very sophisticated and a few simple tools just will not go very far and are easily overcome by someone with a bit of skill. Until a person does what you describe of going to a bjj school and rolling a bit I do not think they can appreciate this. This is one of those things that explaining in writing or putting on a video just will not really get adequately across. First hand personal experience is required.

[guy b.]

Perhaps wing chun has some skills that will work on the ground things like releases and so forth. The problem is exactly what you describe that submission grappling is very sophisticated and a few simple tools just will not go very far and are easily overcome by someone with a bit of skill. Until a person does what you describe of going to a bjj school and rolling a bit I do not think they can appreciate this. This is one of those things that explaining in writing or putting on a video just will not really get adequately across. First hand personal experience is required.

Well obviously. You would need to be some kind of fantasist not to know this. First hand experience is not required at all, provided you are sane.

[Wayfaring]

I think there are a lot of programs out there, like Gracie Combatives or Tim Cartmell's Ground Proofing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqNTbySfSD0 that address ground fighting for da streetz.


Both good resources and packaged so you don't have to spend an apprenticeship in another art.

You can even send in a video and get a blue belt from Royler's kids with the Gracie Combatives. Of course, it's pretty well known that one of those won't hold up to the same rank in sparring with those from competition schools. But it would probably hold up well in places where people do things like try to use their wing chun on the ground without training ground fundamentals.

[tc101]

Well obviously. You would need to be some kind of fantasist not to know this. First hand experience is not required at all, provided you are sane.

I think for people who do not have already made up minds it is obvious but many people with already made up minds just cannot see it and those people will need to experience it firsthand to have their eyes opened as the saying goes. That is why for example you still get people who think eye pokes, groin attacks and those sorts of things will save them on the ground and in stand up fighting too. They want to believe it to be true and no amount of explanation or watching videos will change their mind they need to see for themselves things just do not work that way.

[guy b.]

I think for people who do not have already made up minds it is obvious but many people with already made up minds just cannot see it and those people will need to experience it firsthand to have their eyes opened as the saying goes. That is why for example you still get people who think eye pokes, groin attacks and those sorts of things will save them on the ground and in stand up fighting too. They want to believe it to be true and no amount of explanation or watching videos will change their mind they need to see for themselves things just do not work that way.

The more of these people the better I would say

[chaotic2k]

I think for people who do not have already made up minds it is obvious but many people with already made up minds just cannot see it and those people will need to experience it firsthand to have their eyes opened as the saying goes. That is why for example you still get people who think eye pokes, groin attacks and those sorts of things will save them on the ground and in stand up fighting too. They want to believe it to be true and no amount of explanation or watching videos will change their mind they need to see for themselves things just do not work that way.


Most people forget that a grappler can also eye poke, groin grab, bite etc.. Not rocket science.

[k gledhill]

Most people forget that a grappler can also eye poke, groin grab, bite etc.. Not rocket science.

True, anyone can do it.

[tc101]

True, anyone can do it.

Anyone can try. Without the ground skills those things are essentially useless. With the ground skills they can be potent.

[chaotic2k]

Anyone can try. Without the ground skills those things are essentially useless. With the ground skills they can be potent.


Totally agree. When you can secure a good position then its very effective. Without decent ground control these tactics can seriously back fire.

[Frost]

True, anyone can do it.

thats like saying anyone can do a hook punch, having the ability to do something is one thing, having positional control to do it is quite another

[k gledhill]

thats like saying anyone can do a hook punch, having the ability to do something is one thing, having positional control to do it is quite another

Whatever troll stalker.

[Frost]

Whatever troll stalker.

oh sorry forgot you now have grappling expereince...still think the double leg is a dangerous takedown...?? :)

[k gledhill]

oh sorry forgot you now have grappling expereince...still think the double leg is a dangerous takedown...?? :)

Frost the stalker, troll.

[guy b.]

This is like the bullshido forum in 2002.

[anerlich]

Video regarding positional control on the ground vs the eye gouge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7qImIKom10

[Wayfaring]

This is like the bullshido forum in 2002.

This is like someone trying to gain street cred by claiming to be on the bullshido forum in 2002.

[k gledhill]

Video regarding positional control on the ground vs the eye gouge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7qImIKom10

Lmao, funny ! We eye gouge standing and finger jab. Both are very effective to end a fight. I used finger jab once when facing three guys shoulder to shoulder during a larger bar fight, in a tightly packed bar. I couldn't engage any one without being swarmed so I used the longest range strike, without kicking. Long story short, It works.

[MightyB]

One thing I'll ad about grappling is that once you get into it, you have to stay into it to keep your abilities sharp. Grappling skillz have a relatively short shelf life that deteriorate quickly without regular randori or free rolling. I watched a high ranking purple get dominated by a freshly minted blue because the purple had been out of practice for weeks because of shoulder surgery. I got tapped once by a newbie who had been training 6 days a week for only a couple of months to prep for a mma match. Regular free rolling is a huge contributor to success.

[tc101]

Lmao, funny ! We eye gouge standing and finger jab. Both are very effective to end a fight. I used finger jab once when facing three guys shoulder to shoulder during a larger bar fight, in a tightly packed bar. I couldn't engage any one without being swarmed so I used the longest range strike, without kicking. Long story short, It works.

You are too too funny. I once hit a drunk in the eye with my finger. Yes yes mark that down as proof positive that poking the eye of a drunk works.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Video regarding positional control on the ground vs the eye gouge:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7qImIKom10

Common sense has no place in the WC forum :mad:

[k gledhill]

You are too too funny. I once hit a drunk in the eye with my finger. Yes yes mark that down as proof positive that poking the eye of a drunk works.

Once you get past groin kicks its fingers. There's a stack n gouge with thumbs at 6:40's
Enjoy !
http://youtu.be/nMjrtzVcD50