tendons, not muscle...

[-N-]

are the key to elastic energy storage which evolved allowing humans to kill effectively from a distance.

Read these and see if you didn't already know this as principles from TCMA.

http://cashp.gwu.edu/ntroach/the-evolution-of-throwing/

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v498/n7455/full/nature12267.html#access

http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2013/07/08/from-spears-to-baseball-the-evolution-of-throwing/

[-N-]

"Elastic energy is potential mechanical energy that animals store in tendons, ligaments, and muscles. When these structures are stretched they elongate like an elastic band. When the forces pulling on these elements are then reduced, they return to their original shape, releasing the energy that was used to stretch them. This elastic energy can be used to power forceful movements (such as a frog’s jump) or to make movement more energetically efficient (such as the human Achilles tendon during running)."

"We further found that three key anatomical changes that occurred during human evolution made this novel energy storage mechanism possible: expansion of the waist, lowering of the shoulders, and low humeral torsion. The expansion of the waist allows the torso to rotate independently from the hips. This torso rotation generates large forces needed to stretch the elastic tendons and ligaments in the shoulder. The lowering of the shoulder changes the orientation of many shoulder muscles, including the pectoralis major (the large chest muscle), which is crucial to storing energy. Finally, we found that low humeral torsion (the twisting of the upper arm bone) allows us to store more energy and thus making Pi Qua Tang Lang so effective."

Ok, that last part about Praying mantis was just editorializing.

But how often are we pointing out these details when trying to correct biomechanics in our students?

[bawang]

tendon strength is gained by lifting heavy weights

ur big poosy

[sanjuro_ronin]

As if you can have one without the other...

[David Jamieson]

Tendon is muscle head. It's the tighter fibrous stuff that attaches the muscle to the bone. As SR said, you can't have one without the other.

Regard the body as a unified machine. It all needs to be developed. It won't develop fully if you focus only on one thing about it.

[-N-]

Yeah, I know.

Just giving people a chance to argue.

After the arguing is done, then you all can post pics of scantily clad brunettes.

[-N-]

"They noted that around half the throwing power comes not from muscles, but from ligaments and tendons around the shoulder, which stretch, store and then quickly release elastic energy."

[sanjuro_ronin]

"They noted that around half the throwing power comes not from muscles, but from ligaments and tendons around the shoulder, which stretch, store and then quickly release elastic energy."

Energy from where?
Produced by what?

Muscles.

You do realize that the only way to "strengthen" tendons is by "load baring activities", yes?

[-N-]

Energy from where?
Produced by what?

Muscles.

You do realize that the only way to "strengthen" tendons is by "load baring activities", yes?

Yep.

Energy generated in the muscles, stored as potential energy in stretched assemblies, released in coordination with the rest of body motions.

I know all that. I lift weights too. But I'm bored, so everybody feel free to argue.

[-N-]

"They noted that around half the throwing power comes not from muscles, but from ligaments and tendons around the shoulder, which stretch, store and then quickly release elastic energy."

Half muscle, half tendons. Shhhhhh...

[Yum Cha]

Energy from where?
Produced by what?

Muscles.

You do realize that the only way to "strengthen" tendons is by "load baring activities", yes?

There are methods of training that can increase the amount of energy released by the tendon in proportion to the muscle, i.e., training the tendons.

I know they have successfully trained basketball and volleyball jumpers to jump higher using this method of training. For example, holding a medicine ball, then dropping down by releasing your knees, then before you stop, changing direction and frog jumping.

Or doing dips, and with your arms straight, using just the flex in your muscles, pop your hands up off the bar, then land, an repeat as long as you can.

There's a name, plyometric? or something like that, for the training.

I think it not unfamiliar to SPM or Pak Mei either.

So, yes, you train the muscles, but the way you train changes the physiology too. Like fast twitch training and slow twitch...

[Frost]

plyometric, thats not quite what they mean by plyometrics, especially the pop of the hand thing, and its normally recomended you dont do them unless you have a very good strength base 1.5-2x bodyweight squat , 1xbodyweight bench which again shows you cant really seperate the training of the two
they are also very CNS intensive and should only be used sparingly in a training cycle

[sanjuro_ronin]

There are methods of training that can increase the amount of energy released by the tendon in proportion to the muscle, i.e., training the tendons.

I know they have successfully trained basketball and volleyball jumpers to jump higher using this method of training. For example, holding a medicine ball, then dropping down by releasing your knees, then before you stop, changing direction and frog jumping.

Or doing dips, and with your arms straight, using just the flex in your muscles, pop your hands up off the bar, then land, an repeat as long as you can.

There's a name, plyometric? or something like that, for the training.

I think it not unfamiliar to SPM or Pak Mei either.

So, yes, you train the muscles, but the way you train changes the physiology too. Like fast twitch training and slow twitch...

Plyo's are load baring exercises.
And as Frost mentioned, they should be used AFTER a good base strength is developed.
I mean, you can use them before BUT you get far better results using them after.

[Empty_Cup]

I used Jump Shoes to increase my vertical leap one summer 5 - 8". The theory mentioned in the literature was that it lengthened the muscle and developed fast twitch muscle fiber.

[-N-]

Everybody talks muscle, but nobody wants to talk about TCMA use of elastic energy storage as a mechanism for temporal shift of energy transfer to generate higher peak power.

[Yum Cha]

Everybody talks muscle, but nobody wants to talk about TCMA use of elastic energy storage as a mechanism for temporal shift of energy transfer to generate higher peak power.

I get it, as you might expect, but you can't expect the general audience to understand that aspect of our arts. Its close to plyometric training, which is nicely catalogued in western speak, so its a nice point of common ground to evolve the discussion from.

Frost is a good reference because I believe he has a bit of 'faat ging' even if he has wasted it on his preference for Celtic skull bashing rituals....<grin>.

Ronin too? A little SPM in the back catalogue?

So, I'll contend that while the western take on plyometrics is load bearing, it doesn't take much to model it down to progressive small increment training...does it?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Everybody talks muscle, but nobody wants to talk about TCMA use of elastic energy storage as a mechanism for temporal shift of energy transfer to generate higher peak power.

Well, to be honest, we do talk about it.
Pretty much every sport that uses "explosive strength" does that and trains it.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I get it, as you might expect, but you can't expect the general audience to understand that aspect of our arts. Its close to plyometric training, which is nicely catalogued in western speak, so its a nice point of common ground to evolve the discussion from.

Frost is a good reference because I believe he has a bit of 'faat ging' even if he has wasted it on his preference for Celtic skull bashing rituals....<grin>.

Ronin too? A little SPM in the back catalogue?

So, I'll contend that while the western take on plyometrics is load bearing, it doesn't take much to model it down to progressive small increment training...does it?

The western take is the same as the eastern, just expressed (in words) differently and expressed in action in a sport specific manner.
Simply because we tend to see it in sports more than anywhere else of course.

[Scott R. Brown]

The assertion that a specific strength base is necessary before one should perform plyometrics is a false one. And frankly it is quite a silly assertion, albeit a popular one now-a days!

Historically, Ballet dancers, gymnasts, marital artists and other types of athletes all have performed plyometric actions as part of their everyday training without any strength training prior to their development of awesome jumping abilities.

It would not be a bad idea to start easy and work up to more intense forms of plyometrics, but the idea one must squat or deadlift a specific amount before one attempts to perform plyometrics is just silly!:rolleyes:

[bawang]

Th
It would not be a bad idea to start easy and work up to more intense forms of plyometrics, but the idea one must squat or deadlift a specific amount before one attempts to perform plyometrics is just silly!:rolleyes:

one must squat or deadlift a specific amount before one attempts to perform plyometrics

[Scott R. Brown]

one must squat or deadlift a specific amount before one attempts to perform plyometrics

Tell that to a Ballet Dancer arguably the most able leapers there are!:rolleyes:

But go ahead and blindly follow the ignorant masses if you wish!:p

[bawang]

Tell that to a Ballet Dancer arguably the most able leapers there are!:rolleyes:



I have found a ballet dancer and told her, she said I am right.

[Scott R. Brown]

I have found a ballet dancer and told her, she said I am right.

Did you ask her how much she can squat?:p

[bawang]

Did you ask her how much she can squat?:p

she can squat YO MAMA POOSY

[sanjuro_ronin]

The assertion that a specific strength base is necessary before one should perform plyometrics is a false one. And frankly it is quite a silly assertion, albeit a popular one now-a days!

Historically, Ballet dancers, gymnasts, marital artists and other types of athletes all have performed plyometric actions as part of their everyday training without any strength training prior to their development of awesome jumping abilities.

It would not be a bad idea to start easy and work up to more intense forms of plyometrics, but the idea one must squat or deadlift a specific amount before one attempts to perform plyometrics is just silly!:rolleyes:

Fair enough and a valid point.
That said, ballet dancers tend to train from when they are very little and with "low" impact compared to what they do after, ie: progressive loading.
So...
:p

[pazman]

Did you ask her how much she can squat?:p

Frost mentioned it earlier but for plyometrics (not just "leaping") to be safe and effective, a minimal standard of basic strength is required. Any professional dancer I've known does squats, and being able to squat 1.5x or 2x bodyweight really isn't an issue for them. In fact, getting 1.5x bodyweight is a pretty simple process. I'd be very surprised if somebody practices martial arts for more than a year and hasn't geared their training to hit this relatively modest goal.

[Scott R. Brown]

Fair enough and a valid point.
That said, ballet dancers tend to train from when they are very little and with "low" impact compared to what they do after, ie: progressive loading.
So...
:p

Yes, that is what I consider as well. There still must be some form of progression, also most of these coaches are training guys over 200#, so perhaps it makes more sense to have strong strength base. Dancers and gymnasts are well under 200# in general.

[Scott R. Brown]

Frost mentioned it earlier but for plyometrics (not just "leaping") to be safe and effective, a minimal standard of basic strength is required. Any professional dancer I've known does squats, and being able to squat 1.5x or 2x bodyweight really isn't an issue for them. In fact, getting 1.5x bodyweight is a pretty simple process. I'd be very surprised if somebody practices martial arts for more than a year and hasn't geared their training to hit this relatively modest goal.

Not historically, weight training for athletes and dancers etc is still a modern phenomenon. It is unnecessary to have that kind of strength base in order to perform plymetrics.

It just is not true or necessary, but as I said before, feel free to limit yourself accordingly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, that is what I consider as well. There still must be some form of progression, also most of these coaches are training guys over 200#, so perhaps it makes more sense to have strong strength base. Dancers and gymnasts are well under 200# in general.

Sports where plyo's tend to be PART of the sport ( or art form) tend to do them based on the individuals personal ability (progressive loading) and also age/experience ( ballet, gymnastics, etc).
Basketball players are great leapers and most have been doing since they were kids and by the time that reach adulthood their muscles have been though years of "progressive loading" due to body weight increases and/or increase in frequency.

Personally I think that when introducing plyo's to adults we have to be far more careful than when doing that to kids because, well, kids tend to be "plyo'ing" all over the place already, LOL.

[bawang]

http://i.minus.com/ixry57MWDG4Eh.gif

[Scott R. Brown]

Sports where plyo's tend to be PART of the sport ( or art form) tend to do them based on the individuals personal ability (progressive loading) and also age/experience ( ballet, gymnastics, etc).
Basketball players are great leapers and most have been doing since they were kids and by the time that reach adulthood their muscles have been though years of "progressive loading" due to body weight increases and/or increase in frequency.

Personally I think that when introducing plyo's to adults we have to be far more careful than when doing that to kids because, well, kids tend to be "plyo'ing" all over the place already, LOL.

That was not my point however, I am saying it isn't necessary to be able to squat 1.5 x body weight in order to do plyos.

Depth jumps probably its a good idea, box jumps not at all. Frog leaps, not at all.

Any beginner at anything needs to start slow at any activity, so that point is neither here nor there.

My point is, 1.5 x body weight is ridiculous, unless perhaps you weight over 200# and are doing depth jumps or hurdle jumps or something like that.

[Scott R. Brown]

And BTW,

I have been a dancer, a tumbler and a martial artist. I've done plyos most of my life and I've NEVER squatted 1.5 x my body weight.

Right now I am 54 years old, I weigh 200#, I have a serious hip injury and I still do plyos regularly without any ill effects. I have never squatted 300# in my life.

So, if you guys want to puss out on your plyos until you can squat the prescribed amount feel free to short change yourselves.

[Frost]

And BTW,

I have been a dancer, a tumbler and a martial artist. I've done plyos most of my life and I've NEVER squatted 1.5 x my body weight.

Right now I am 54 years old, I weigh 200#, I have a serious hip injury and I still do plyos regularly without any ill effects. I have never squatted 300# in my life.

So, if you guys want to puss out on your plyos until you can squat the prescribed amount feel free to short change yourselves.

oh the irony

the base level is for two things, injury prevention and to get the most out of the activity, and considering the modern father of this type of training also advocated reaching a base level before using it ill go with him thanks

[Scott R. Brown]

oh the irony

the base level is for two things, injury prevention and to get the most out of the activity, and considering the modern father of this type of training also advocated reaching a base level before using it ill go with him thanks

Of course do what you think best for yourself

But,

Considering plyo has been around for a couple of thousand years before your expert was wrong in his opinion, you are wasting your time.

But you have to follow your own judgment, even when its wrong! ;)

[Yum Cha]

The western take is the same as the eastern, just expressed (in words) differently and expressed in action in a sport specific manner.
Simply because we tend to see it in sports more than anywhere else of course.

It always stimulates a lot of thought and provides a bit of validity when we find common ground between western and eastern takes, and follow the thread.

Happens a lot.

[Yum Cha]

I've been dating a girl that did 25 years of Ballett, and I assure you guys, she can jump!
Her squats are pretty good too.
Oh, its so good to be me! :D

BTW, I'm with Scott. Slow, progressive training. The word is that the Pak Mei training gives your tendons micro damage that constantly heals and repairs, over time building your tendons. Never dissected a Hing Dai before, but it makes sense.

Likewise, movement in one direction followed by explosive power in a different direction loads the tendons.

I think you guys are arguing over 'things you read' not things you did, and everybody is right, its just a matter of scale, speed of progress, and key muscle groups deemed more important by different sport physiologists dedicated to specific sports.

[bawang]

I've been dating a girl that did 25 years of Ballett, and I assure you guys, she can jump!
Her squats are pretty good too.
Oh, its so good to be me! :D

BTW, I'm with Scott. Slow, progressive training. The word is that the Pak Mei training gives your tendons micro damage that constantly heals and repairs, over time building your tendons. Never dissected a Hing Dai before, but it makes sense.

Likewise, movement in one direction followed by explosive power in a different direction loads the tendons.

I think you guys are arguing over 'things you read' not things you did, and everybody is right, its just a matter of scale, speed of progress, and key muscle groups deemed more important by different sport physiologists dedicated to specific sports.

kung fu emphasizes tendon strength because muscle grows faster than tendon and will rip the tendon. ancient china has no tendon surgery, once you rip it you are a useless cripple for life.

[Raipizo]

kung fu emphasizes tendon strength because muscle grows faster than tendon and will rip the tendon. ancient china has no tendon surgery, once you rip it you are a useless cripple for life.

I think even to this day tendon repair isn't even that perfect, I'm sure you still have pain and stuff not to mention the cost.

[Scott R. Brown]

I started doing plyos the first day of dance classes, the first day of gymnastic classes, the first day of martial arts classes, we even have a wu shu school nearby, one day I was walking by their window and what do you think I saw through their window?

Well, I'll be hornswaggled, they were doing plyos! :eek:

Too bad no one told any of these instructors their students had to squat 1.5 times their body weight BEFORE they should do plyos! :p:rolleyes:

[Syn7]

As a b-boy I did a ton of explosive movements from the get go. Never got one serious injury. In gymnastics, same. I was careful and never reckless, but I still pushed hard. Results came relatively fast and with stretching, I always felt great after. I don't have a problem with weights, but if you can't do 100 push-ups, why increase the resistance? I'll take slick and agile any day.

In wrestling, we never went near the sled until we had already pushed on each other for a year or two.

[Alex Córdoba]

The word is that the Pak Mei training gives your tendons micro damage that constantly heals and repairs, over time building your tendons.

Not only Pak Mei but every single fitness exercise, even sex. The only way to build stronger fibbers is destroying the weak ones.

[bawang]

tendon training http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Gxgxjr-Vk

[-N-]

Muscle strength and plyometrics are one aspect of explosive power.

What methods and mechanisms of your functional training capitalize specifically on elasticity of human biomechanics as a system?

[IronFist]

tendon training http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Gxgxjr-Vk

Pretty cool when he flips the big one up and catches it on his shoulder.

According to this site (http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/weight/cjin.html), 1 jin is about 1.102 pounds, so that 105 jin weight weighs 111.7 pounds.

Squatting 111 pounds balanced on your shoulder looks quite tough.

[IronFist]

In fact, getting 1.5x bodyweight is a pretty simple process. I'd be very surprised if somebody practices martial arts for more than a year and hasn't geared their training to hit this relatively modest goal.

I would be willing to bet that more than 50% of martial artists who train at a McDojo for more than a year cannot squat 1.5x bodyweight. But I don't mean the people who also strength train.

Most people cannot squat 1.5x bodyweight, or even their own bodyweight, without specific strength training.

[Yum Cha]

Muscle strength and plyometrics are one aspect of explosive power.

What methods and mechanisms of your functional training capitalize specifically on elasticity of human biomechanics as a system?


Learning proper body alignment and balance is a pre requisite because the issuance of the force needs a proper foundation and bio-mechanic.

hyperextend in small increments of increase
learn to focus strength at moment of impact, from an increasing state of relaxation before and after.
move with a change in direction that goes into hyper extension.
link several together and repeat until you die.

When you start training, your joints begin to ache. You stop and rest. Eventually it stops and you find new things. If you stop training for a long time, your joints will begin to ache again a bit.

Its obviously something that needs a trainer.

Now, to the best of my understanding, SPM gets there using a lot of dynamic tension, and quick releases. Its very significant to me that the end result of different styles of training achieve a very similar result.

I've never seen any other arts do it to the same degree of integrated efficiency and control.

Its a core technique, you can put it on a boxers jab, a kick, backlist - lots of things. Doesn't just have to sit on a TCMA technique is the beauty of it.

A bit like a turbo charger, it fits on most thing, and the ones it blows up just need reinforcement in the weak spots. And maybe a bit of engineering.

[Yum Cha]

Don't know how relevant this is, but I was told once that "Tiger Style" had nothing to do with claws and stuff like that (Shaolin), but with the way the tiger attacked, and the fact that when they cut the tigers up, there was no muscle, just masses of tendon.

Thus, tiger style is 'Tendon' style.....

[Yum Cha]

kung fu emphasizes tendon strength because muscle grows faster than tendon and will rip the tendon. ancient china has no tendon surgery, once you rip it you are a useless cripple for life.

I've met two Chinese who claim their ripped knee tendons were repaired by acupuncture.
One TCMA, one soccer player. The best description I've heard is that joining tendons is like sewing together two ends of a mop. Tendons grow slowly.

The systemic acupuncture technique allegedly stimulates the growth of the tendons significantly. Sounded a bit far fetched to me, and not knowing the full dimensions of their injuries its hard to say, but both swore by it. Chinese from Mainland China, elite sportsmen with access to resources. FWIW.

[mickey]

Greetings,

-N-

Do you realize that if you started this thread with kung fu, fa jing, chi kung, etc, and without changing the content, this thread would have quickly found its way to page 2?


mickey

[Syn7]

Don't know how relevant this is, but I was told once that "Tiger Style" had nothing to do with claws and stuff like that (Shaolin), but with the way the tiger attacked, and the fact that when they cut the tigers up, there was no muscle, just masses of tendon.

Thus, tiger style is 'Tendon' style.....

Interesting... Anyone know if this is true?

[SoCo KungFu]

Don't know how relevant this is, but I was told once that "Tiger Style" had nothing to do with claws and stuff like that (Shaolin), but with the way the tiger attacked, and the fact that when they cut the tigers up, there was no muscle, just masses of tendon.

Thus, tiger style is 'Tendon' style.....


Interesting... Anyone know if this is true?

Its nonsense. 1) They didn't distinguish between tendon, ligament, muscle. 2) Tigers have the most muscle mass of any cat. 3) If cats had no muscle, house cats wouldn't be used across the nation to introduce high school and undergrads to muscular anatomy.

Its the kind of crap people repeat without actually thinking about what they're saying. And should really be very obvious. Another prime example, Rhino horn. Its proven to have absolutely zero medicinal value. But people are replacing rhino horn in their concoctions without actually knowing what they're doing (and that's most all of them, even the "legit" herbologists), with antler and horn from other animals. Rhino horn is not comprised of bone. It's keratin. Chew on your finger nails and you'll get the same benefit, which is to say none at all. Makes you wonder. People replacing completely useless ingredients with stuff they don't even know is not the same thing... Makes you question the validity of a great deal of stuff in TCM when the people that are supposedly experts don't even know what their materials are.

[bawang]

Interesting... Anyone know if this is true?

not true. tiger style is named tiger style because tigers are fukin terrifying


I've met two Chinese who claim their ripped knee tendons were repaired by acupuncture.
One TCMA, one soccer player. The best description I've heard is that joining tendons is like sewing together two ends of a mop. Tendons grow slowly.

The systemic acupuncture technique allegedly stimulates the growth of the tendons significantly. Sounded a bit far fetched to me, and not knowing the full dimensions of their injuries its hard to say, but both swore by it. Chinese from Mainland China, elite sportsmen with access to resources. FWIW.

chinese Olympics lifters do use acupuncture as a restoration activity, but not for full blown tears from the bone

[Yum Cha]

Its nonsense. 1) They didn't distinguish between tendon, ligament, muscle. 2) Tigers have the most muscle mass of any cat. 3) If cats had no muscle, house cats wouldn't be used across the nation to introduce high school and undergrads to muscular anatomy.

http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/197609/1/Tiger,-Lateral-View,-Skin-Removed,-From-A-Comparative-Anatomical-Exposition-Of-The-Structure-Of-The-Human-Body-With-That-Of-A-Tiger-And-A-Common-Fowl.jpg

(gruesome) http://photos.merinews.com/upload/imageGallery/bigImage/1202363244030.jpg

Chinese medicine has bone, soft bone and muscle, anything white is bone or soft bone.
These weren't scientists, but superstitious peasants. Cats use leverage to jump, and compared to the way say, and Ox or a Bear jumps? Lots more of them good steaks to be had off an ox, bear or well, practically anything but a cat....

Tiger Bone is the 'magical' element, not a wee gristly tiger steak....

Like I said, made a bit of sense to me, but like so many chinese fables and sayings, the value is not in the fact, but in the fiction.

[-N-]

Do you realize that if you started this thread with kung fu, fa jing, chi kung, etc, and without changing the content, this thread would have quickly found its way to page 2?


Just giving people a chance to discuss from a scientific point of view rather than get lost in vague mystical confusion.

[MightyB]

Muscle strength and plyometrics are one aspect of explosive power.

What methods and mechanisms of your functional training capitalize specifically on elasticity of human biomechanics as a system?

This seems like it would work: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7YDkZrJ-V0

[LaRoux]

are the key to elastic energy storage which evolved allowing humans to kill effectively from a distance.

Read these and see if you didn't already know this as principles from TCMA.

http://cashp.gwu.edu/ntroach/the-evolution-of-throwing/

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v498/n7455/full/nature12267.html#access

http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2013/07/08/from-spears-to-baseball-the-evolution-of-throwing/


The principles of elastic energy storage and release apply to any most movements.

What you CANNOT do is to train only a muscle, tendon, or ligament separately. Each of these is inexorably linked to the other in that the muscle produces the force that transfers energy to the tendon attaching it to the bone which transfers energy to the ligament that connects the bones.

[-N-]

"[...] rapid, sequential activation of many muscles, starting in the legs and progressing through the hips, torso, shoulder, elbow and wrist. Torques generated at each joint accelerate segmental masses, creating rapid angular movements that accumulate kinetic energy [...]"

"[...] the tall, mobile waists of humans decouple the hips and thorax, permitting more torso rotation, in turn enabling high torque production over a large range of motion (ROM) [...]"

A lot of TCMA training focuses on optimizing the above two elements.

[Oso]

blah, blah, blah...where are the bikini *****es?