have at it..video clip

[TenTigers]

this is pt one of more to come, just demonstrating a basic phon-sao
I will however post more:
1. snappier jab-quick retraction, folowing the elbow/arm/shoulder
2. with gloves-both boxing and mma-just to show how the "Kung-Fu doesn't work with gloves so we can't really fight in the ring/cage,etc ever..but we're still cool" excuse doesn't hold water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDyCHIozZik&feature=youtu.be

ok, let the trolling begin!:p

[Yum Cha]

Nice, looking forward to the one with gloves.

[wiz cool c]

nice clip, and nice school

[sanjuro_ronin]

this is pt one of more to come, just demonstrating a basic phon-sao
I will however post more:
1. snappier jab-quick retraction, folowing the elbow/arm/shoulder
2. with gloves-both boxing and mma-just to show how the "Kung-Fu doesn't work with gloves so we can't really fight in the ring/cage,etc ever..but we're still cool" excuse doesn't hold water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDyCHIozZik&feature=youtu.be

ok, let the trolling begin!:p

Well, since you asked :D
The issue I have is this:
If the back fist ( which I would not do over the arm on the outside, typically) hits with decent amount of force, the opponent will not "be there" for the joint lock.
I can almost see that being "ok" off a committed punch but a Jab?

[Shaolin]

1. Get someone who can throw a decent jab.

2. You don't have a standing key lock off the jab. Maybe "traditional" practitioners leave their arm hanging out for someone to grab, but that's not reality. You're telling me that in the time it takes your opponent to jab (even stepping in on a power jab), your going to beat the foot, smack their arm twice, strike them, and then pull a submission? I call b.s.



with gloves-both boxing and mma-just to show how the "Kung-Fu doesn't work with gloves so we can't really fight in the ring/cage,etc ever..but we're still cool" excuse doesn't hold water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDyCHIozZik&feature=youtu.be


Yes it does. The practitioner just needs to learn to modify their classic training to fit modern sport. Start with actually learning boxing and kickboxing.

[Frost]

My only comment is what’s his other hand going to be doing as you slap THEN trap the front hand with your other hand whilst you stand there directly in front of him?? Other than trying to take your head off with a cross?
Other than that im looking forward to the other clips but I am puzzled as to why you decided to start with a bad example of a jab with the arm left hanging, why not start with a good jab and show us the good stuff?

[TenTigers]

My only comment is what’s his other hand going to be doing as you slap THEN trap the front hand with your other hand whilst you stand there directly in front of him?? Other than trying to take your head off with a cross?
Other than that im looking forward to the other clips but I am puzzled as to why you decided to start with a bad example of a jab with the arm left hanging, why not start with a good jab and show us the good stuff?
Thanks for the honest and intelligent critique. Much appreciated.


The first clip is done that way so the people in the cheap seats can see. :p
It is shown larger and slower to show how the technique is performed, just as you would teach something larger and slower. When performed fast against a quick jab, or against a committed lead hand strike, the timing is to attack the attack, and the footwork comes into play, as you zone to the outside, slightly and maintain pressure (bik ma).
Does it work 100% of the time in all situations? Does anything? Do you fight expecting to never get hit? Is it high percentage? Well, in many cases, it depends how well you train something. Huge swinging element punches are high percentage if you know how and when to throw them and how to set them up, and finish.

Now, just as soon as I get a teenage student to show me how to upload videos..I will put the others up.
Sifu Rogers went back to UK and we threw it up at the last minute.

[Vernon]

Thanks for sharing!

The "catch" of the jab and follow-up had a real nice flow to it. The lock and takedown were a perfect fit and show that traditional Kung Fu fits in extremely well into the modern world where MMA is becoming the norm.

This is the stuff that shines a bright light on TCMA. Please keep the videos coming!

[TenTigers]

Well, since you asked :D
The issue I have is this:
If the back fist ( which I would not do over the arm on the outside, typically) hits with decent amount of force, the opponent will not "be there" for the joint lock.
I can almost see that being "ok" off a committed punch but a Jab?
Bik Ma. Follow and stick and press your attack, constant forward pressure..
But you already knew that.;)
And not ALL jabs are probing strikes. Jack Dempsey's "jab" is his stiff jolt, or Bruce Lee's (plagerized) straight blast. Or Charp Choy, Jik Kuen, Biu Sao..
But..follow it in. Trap at the elbow/upper arm, shoulder. The hand moves 4 feet, but the elbow only moves 1/2 foot.
Doesn't need to be a backfist. Could be a jik kuen, fung-ngan choy, pek choy,etc
Different types of force. Snap the head, but don't drive through, but as I said, Bik Ma.
Doesn't have to be on the outside. Can also be played on the inside. The second hand covers his strike-but..it's touchy. My Si-Hings and Sifu pull that one off better than I do. More practice.
I've played this against experienced boxers, one of them an instructor at the local boxing gym. He does Gung-Fu now.
Nice points SJ.
I like intelligent fighters.
You should see some of the responses that were removed from the vid.
There seem to be a bunch of CMAists who recently discovered training, and think that they are the only ones who've ever put on a pair of gloves.:rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

My first reaction... since David is orthodox and you are south paw, you should have stood in reverse, or maybe you were trying to keep it all secret?

Second, if you are matched leads, you pak sau and gwa choih quite well... since you are not matched, you are advocating a double trapping movement before you even throw the punch. I'd guess that most of the time, the punch would retract before this would be successful

Third, much to be said for what Sanjuro said, hit someone HARD and it drives them backward.. this doesn't seem to be accounted for?

[TenTigers]

Good Points! read my responses. I think I pretty much covered that.
As far as matched leads, Again, I was showing that for ease of demonstrating.
I teach it from matched leads first as it is easier to learn.
Also, when I teach, I teach both sides, right and left leads, open and closed stances, ambidexterity.

[YouKnowWho]

Your opponent punches you with his left arm. You

1. Use your right hand to deflect his punch.
2. Catch his wrist with your left hand.
3. Strike back with your right hand.
4. Take him down with your elbow lock.

Since your right deflect hand will move your opponent's arm to his right (your left), he can borrow your force and pull back his left punching arm. The chance that you can use your left hand to catch his left wrist from "outside" is low. If you move your left hand to be "inside" of his left arm (his front door), you can use your right hand to "guide" his left arm toward your left hand. Your chance to catch his arm will be higher. It's much easier to catch your opponent's arm if you have one outside hand (your right) and one inside hand (your left) than to have both your hands to be outside of his punching arm.

Also in step 2, if your left hand can catch your opponent's arm, you can take him down right at that moment. You don't need to go through step 3.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I do not see that technique ever working in real time, even if you are going up against a one armed man.

It looks like something Inosanto inspired. Nothing more.


mickey

[Golden Arms]

There is a difference between what works on a trained individual and what works on an untrained individual (often those we would need to defend ourselves from are on the untrained end of the spectrum).

The technique you showed in the video TT is something that would likely work on an untrained individual, but might be difficult to pull off on a trained fighter. There is nothing wrong with that, each method has its place depending on what we are focusing on.

As an example: I have a police officer friend that has pulled off a middle parry + biu sau across the face into a guat sau to get outside the elbow + attack towards centerline or one of the legs, move into wrist lock into handcuffs combination many times, it has become a go to method for him in escalating scenarios. The combination would be harder to pull off on someone in a sport scenario yet that has little impact on his ability to use it to perform his job on both people that have attacked him, as well as officers involved in DT classes.

Everything has its place if you figure out the context it will thrive in. Sport is one context.

[David Jamieson]

couple of things.

I don't see a trap. Maybe it's a term thing? I see a slap, a check and the attack.

Also I would drive the gwa sao at 45 or horizontal into / across the face instead of bringing it down on the crown.

Good tech, would likely do just as well without the check in a real time moving scenario, just slap and strike. Check is nice to have, but not totally necessary after the line of attack has been changed with the pak sao.

My .05 (we don't got no pennies no more, gotta go the full nickle.)

[YouKnowWho]

I don't see a trap.
IMO, it should be an "arm guiding - to use your right hand to guide your opponent's left punching arm into your left hand" instead. In order to do that, your catching hand has to be on the opposite side of your guiding hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRR6mP-sMno

The more reasonable assumption is if you make a move, your oppponent will also makes a move. If you make 4 moves, your opponent will also make 4 moves. To assume that you make 4 moves and your opponent only makes 1 move is not realistic.

The praying mantis system likes to use this kind of combo but the assumption is, you have to attach an effective "hook" on your opponent. This way, when he retreats, he will pull your body with him. Without that "hook', your opponent's body is already gone when you try to apply your step 2 move.

[pazman]

Other than pulling a keylock off a jab (which isn't going to happen), I don't have so much problem with the technique itself.

I do have a problem with the way this video (and nearly every other kung fu video) displays the technique, though. Typically when I teach a technique, I will teach the footwork and body positioning first. You and your partner start from what looks like an arbitrary distance and I don't get a sense of you teaching any footwork or body positioning. If you just stick to punching, the sense of distance required is pretty intuitive (close enough to hit the other guy in the face). For any standing qinna, it is less so, and its really important to impart that to the student.

For the strike itself, it would be great to show it as a mitt drill. That way, we could get a sense of how it is played with some footwork.:)

[YouKnowWho]

When your opponent punches at you, his arm is trying to be straight. If you want to use joint locking on him by taking advantage on his straight arn, you should help his arm to be straight even more and lock on his elbow joint. It's not technique efficiency if you ignore that straight arm, and trying to bend his wrist from a string position into a bending positiion.

Here is an example. Instead of using 4 moves, you can just using 1 move to against 1 move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oU5m2cx0GI&feature=youtu.be

[Yum Cha]

Its always easy to take a training demonstration and take it apart with a lot of 'ifs' or to move into your own ideas with an 'or'

Check-bridge-strike. I totally get the use of slap/check before the heavy bridge. The vid shows it as a defence, it works just as well in attack, checking the lead hand to prevent the defensive jab as you move in to bridge... Say, the second some knob throws up his classic Gwailo Kuen left lead. The very second, because he crossed the line.....

The check hits the jab as it is coming out, before extension, knocking it off axis/or target, and rotating the body momentum counter to the direction leaded for a good right counter.
Your bridge reaches full extension as or before the jab does, trapping and turning the opponent.
The strike hits on the half beat, before the opponent reacts to the bridge, much less brings the right around.
you can use a light 'attention getter' to the face (to raise his guard) and follow up with something big, or go for gold on the strike.

Ten moves fast, demonstrates his style in a manner other students can learn the exercise. The beginning stuff, for beginners..... He can demonstrate the dynamic at speed, which a student needs to see to understand as they lumber through the learning of the mechanics.

Its a valid technique, sure, not full power, but its just a training vid.

I don't know about you guys, but my biggest challenge these days is learning how to teach, how to preserve the traditional techniques by keeping them effective and self justifying. Lots of stages to put a student through...

[Yum Cha]

When your opponent punches at you, his arm is trying to be straight. If you want to use joint locking on him by taking advantage on his straight arn, you should help his arm to be straight even more and lock on his elbow joint. It's not technique efficiency if you ignore that straight arm, and trying to bend his wrist from a string position into a bending positiion.

Here is an example. Instead of using 4 moves, you can just using 1 move to against 1 move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oU5m2cx0GI&feature=youtu.be

John, we use the same set up, but bring an elbow strike up into his elbow for the break instead of the throw, or a palm to the shoulder to drive the face into the ground. The footwork is almost exact. :D

[YouKnowWho]

my biggest challenge these days is learning how to teach, how to preserve the traditional techniques by keeping them effective and self justifying. Lots of stages to put a student through...
I don't think about trying to preserve the traditional techniques. I think about the most efficency moves at that particular moment. Whether it may come from TCMA or from none TCMA, it won't make any difference to me. So what's the most effective counters to deal with a "punch to the face"?

I like the following solutions:

1. kick back at my opponent's belley. Since my leg is always longer than his arm, my defense kick can also be an offense kick.
2. If I don't have time to kick, I'll jump back to gain distance, jump back in, and attack. This way I can take over the offense.
3. If I don't have time or space to jump back, I'll just throw a leading arm 45 degree downward "haymaker" to cover the space infront of me. Whether my "haymaker" mak knock on down his arm, or knock on his head, it won't matter. What metter is what I'm going to do after that "haymaker", the offense.

I try not to think about defense but offense only. This way the fight is much simplier. Of course I can use my back hand to "comb my hair". But since my back hand is too close to my face, I have to take more risk by doing so.

[Golden Arms]

Its always easy to take a training demonstration and take it apart with a lot of 'ifs' or to move into your own ideas with an 'or'

Check-bridge-strike. I totally get the use of slap/check before the heavy bridge. The vid shows it as a defence, it works just as well in attack, checking the lead hand to prevent the defensive jab as you move in to bridge... Say, the second some knob throws up his classic Gwailo Kuen left lead. The very second, because he crossed the line.....

The check hits the jab as it is coming out, before extension, knocking it off axis/or target, and rotating the body momentum counter to the direction leaded for a good right counter.
Your bridge reaches full extension as or before the jab does, trapping and turning the opponent.
The strike hits on the half beat, before the opponent reacts to the bridge, much less brings the right around.
you can use a light 'attention getter' to the face (to raise his guard) and follow up with something big, or go for gold on the strike.

Ten moves fast, demonstrates his style in a manner other students can learn the exercise. The beginning stuff, for beginners..... He can demonstrate the dynamic at speed, which a student needs to see to understand as they lumber through the learning of the mechanics.

Its a valid technique, sure, not full power, but its just a training vid.

I don't know about you guys, but my biggest challenge these days is learning how to teach, how to preserve the traditional techniques by keeping them effective and self justifying. Lots of stages to put a student through...
I also agree that it is pretty much impossible to make any sort of training clip released to the general public that is not going to bring up a ton of what if/but, type responses (unless you are a pro fighter and then in that case most people will just agree because they don't have the credentials to disagree). A great thing about fighting is that what works for you may not for me and vice versa.

[YouKnowWho]

It's always true that 1 move is faster than 2 moves, and 2 moves is faster than 3 moves. The OP's clip just starts this discussion. It's always fun to discuss "general solution to deal with a face punch". Our discussion should be beyond that clip and not be restricted by it.

Since this thread belongs to "Kung Fu forum", people won't say, "This move is against my style principle." We can look at this clip from all different angles.

[TenTigers]

Yummy-you're way ahead of me-I was also going to show the same move as an offensive attack.
David-when I say,"Trap," I don't neccesarily mean a complete trap, tying up his hands into a knot.
A check, a temporary immobilization is a trap. All I need is a split second to get my strike in. Just a window of opportunity. If I get the first strike in, I can get the second. If I can get the second in, I will get the third.

[TenTigers]

Yummy-you're way ahead of me-I was also going to show the same move as an offensive attack.
David-when I say,"Trap," I don't neccesarily mean a complete trap, tying up his hands into a knot.
A check, a temporary immobilization is a trap. All I need is a split second to get my strike in. Just a window of opportunity. If I get the first strike in, I can get the second. If I can get the second in, I will get the third.

[Kellen Bassette]

I have a police officer friend that has pulled off a middle parry + biu sau across the face into a guat sau to get outside the elbow + attack towards centerline or one of the legs, move into wrist lock into handcuffs combination many times, it has become a go to method for him in escalating scenarios.


I actually believe this is the original intent of many standing Chi Na techniques. I think they were designed for military/police to apprehend and arrest. i think Chi Na is largely taken out of context today.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Bik Ma. Follow and stick and press your attack, constant forward pressure..
But you already knew that.;)
And not ALL jabs are probing strikes. Jack Dempsey's "jab" is his stiff jolt, or Bruce Lee's (plagerized) straight blast. Or Charp Choy, Jik Kuen, Biu Sao..
But..follow it in. Trap at the elbow/upper arm, shoulder. The hand moves 4 feet, but the elbow only moves 1/2 foot.
Doesn't need to be a backfist. Could be a jik kuen, fung-ngan choy, pek choy,etc
Different types of force. Snap the head, but don't drive through, but as I said, Bik Ma.
Doesn't have to be on the outside. Can also be played on the inside. The second hand covers his strike-but..it's touchy. My Si-Hings and Sifu pull that one off better than I do. More practice.
I've played this against experienced boxers, one of them an instructor at the local boxing gym. He does Gung-Fu now.
Nice points SJ.
I like intelligent fighters.
You should see some of the responses that were removed from the vid.
There seem to be a bunch of CMAists who recently discovered training, and think that they are the only ones who've ever put on a pair of gloves.:rolleyes:

Oh I know that YOU account for the reaction of the opponent BUT I also know that, watching that clip, it would be one of the first ":issues" any fighter would have seeing it.
I also know that you know that too.

See, this is the tricky thing about demoing ANY technique:
For it to be properly demo'd it tends to have to be done in an "improper" way - too slow, to wide, opponent just kind of stays there, etc..

This is what I think the Dog Brothers do what they do better than anyone else and we can all learn from that:
In their demo/instructional's that show it taught AND show it FOUGHT.

It is, IMO, the correct way of doing this.

I just don't think that it is always possible or practical at times and I understand that, YET it should be what we aim for.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't know about you guys, but my biggest challenge these days is learning how to teach, how to preserve the traditional techniques by keeping them effective and self justifying. Lots of stages to put a student through...

This is a really good issue here, thread worthy actually.
;)

[MightyB]

I don't know about you guys, but my biggest challenge these days is learning how to teach, how to preserve the traditional techniques by keeping them effective and self justifying. Lots of stages to put a student through...

Lately I just try to reiterate that we all move differently, so not everything will work for everybody. There are things I can't and will probably never be able to pull off in real time, but I can still show that others can and do use. Such is life.

Everybody Poops.

[LaRoux]

This is what I think the Dog Brothers do what they do better than anyone else and we can all learn from that:
In their demo/instructional's that show it taught AND show it FOUGHT.

It is, IMO, the correct way of doing this.

I just don't think that it is always possible or practical at times and I understand that, YET it should be what we aim for.

Yes, and the techniques shown in the original video are impractical. That's why you will not see any evidence of either that backfist or that arm lock/takedown being used effectively in full contact situations.

[David Jamieson]

Yes, and the techniques shown in the original video are impractical. That's why you will not see any evidence of either that backfist or that arm lock/takedown being used effectively in full contact situations.
Well..maybe you won't see evidence..because...where exactly are you looking?

Not impractical at all. I disagree. they are what they are. Everything is good and everything can change up.

I think you are premature and a bit of a blanket statement maker to say it's impractical. I'm pretty sure getting bonked in the chops with a backfist has some effect.

:p

[LaRoux]

Well..maybe you won't see evidence..because...where exactly are you looking?

Not impractical at all. I disagree. they are what they are. Everything is good and everything can change up.

I think you are premature and a bit of a blanket statement maker to say it's impractical. I'm pretty sure getting bonked in the chops with a backfist has some effect.

:p

Funny how anytime you see a full contact fight there is never a backfist that has any effect that can be seen.

[Yum Cha]

Funny how anytime you see a full contact fight there is never a backfist that has any effect that can be seen.

Oh Dude, come out of your self-absorbed cave!

The Laceys wasted the entire town of Melbourne in a William Chen tournament using spinning backlists. The whole thing almost turned into a riot when in the middle of the thing they tried to outlaw the backfist.

woof.

[Vernon]

Full contact events definitely have their merits. However, saying that something is impractical for the real world based upon its inclusion or omission in UFC type situations is short-sighted.

A "parry" or "catch" type of technique against jabs has been proven effective in real world encounters. This type of opening was one of Bruce Lee's favorites. Backfists flow nicely from these types of blocks and they can transition into a plethora of techniques such as chokes, locks, takedowns, etc., all of which are prevalent in full contact MMA competitions; but as TT said in a subsequent posting one doesn't need to limit oneself to a backfist. And I have talked to more than one law enforcement officer who has used a figure-four type of lock and takedown in real life.

Best,
Vernon

[MightyB]

Yes, and the techniques shown in the original video are impractical. That's why you will not see any evidence of either that backfist or that arm lock/takedown being used effectively in full contact situations.

Arm Lock Takedown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge34hs-4PKk)

[LaRoux]

Oh Dude, come out of your self-absorbed cave!

The Laceys wasted the entire town of Melbourne in a William Chen tournament using spinning backlists. The whole thing almost turned into a riot when in the middle of the thing they tried to outlaw the backfist.

woof.

Spinning backfist is completely different than the pattycake backfists shown in the "trapping" demos at the beginning of this thread.

[LaRoux]

Arm Lock Takedown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge34hs-4PKk)

That's a kimura. Perfectly legit armlock for a takedown.

The armlock takedown shown in the video is an Americana. Totally different and not legit for a takedown at all.

[LaRoux]

Full contact events definitely have their merits. However, saying that something is impractical for the real world based upon its inclusion or omission in UFC type situations is short-sighted.

A "parry" or "catch" type of technique against jabs has been proven effective in real world encounters. This type of opening was one of Bruce Lee's favorites. Backfists flow nicely from these types of blocks and they can transition into a plethora of techniques such as chokes, locks, takedowns, etc., all of which are prevalent in full contact MMA competitions; but as TT said in a subsequent posting one doesn't need to limit oneself to a backfist. And I have talked to more than one law enforcement officer who has used a figure-four type of lock and takedown in real life.

Best,
Vernon

Vernon,
Full contact does not mean UFC type events only. If those techniques actually worked, it would be very simple for the Ten Tiger guys to show them working in a full contact situation in their gym. Instead, the best they can do is show some patty cake with completely compliant partners.

Or how about you? Since you are claiming that they work, post your own clip of them working in a full-on sparring situation against resiting opponents. Very simple to do, since you are claiming these are legit.

Funny how everyone claims these techniques are valid, yet they can only make demos with them against complying opponents. Notice how you never see them used against resisting opponents in full contact settings.

[LaRoux]

You guys really need to learn to differentiate between workable techniques that have evidence for being practical and bogus techniques like the ones that were shown in the original clip.

[Kellen Bassette]

Ahhh the return of LaRoux...I knew i sensed some dark presence....

By the by, backfist is a valid technique, I've used successfully in hard sparring many times...just think of it like a faster jab from a different angle...it's not meant as a finisher...

[YouKnowWho]

it's not meant as a finisher...

It's much easier to use back fist to set up your next move than to use jab to set up your next move.

When you use

- jab, your opponent may dodge it.
- back fist, your opponent will have more intention to block it (if that's what you want him to do).

[SavvySavage]

Oh Dude, come out of your self-absorbed cave!

The Laceys wasted the entire town of Melbourne in a William Chen tournament using spinning backlists. The whole thing almost turned into a riot when in the middle of the thing they tried to outlaw the backfist.

woof.

A spinning backfist is completely different from the wing chun backfist shown by tentigers. The spinning backfist has way more power. The wrgument Larkin might be trying to make is that the short quick backfist in the video wouldn't be effective. If I knock you on the ground and move in to smash you using my backfist hat is still not the same as the original backfist of this thread.

Just sayin...

[Vernon]

Vernon,
Full contact does not mean UFC type events only. If those techniques actually worked, it would be very simple for the Ten Tiger guys to show them working in a full contact situation in their gym. Instead, the best they can do is show some patty cake with completely compliant partners.

Or how about you? Since you are claiming that they work, post your own clip of them working in a full-on sparring situation against resiting opponents. Very simple to do, since you are claiming these are legit.

Funny how everyone claims these techniques are valid, yet they can only make demos with them against complying opponents. Notice how you never see them used against resisting opponents in full contact settings.

I am a firm believer in the "pressure-testing" component of martial arts as well. Virtually all serious students of JKD whom I've encountered understand the importance of reality-based techniques. Full contact fighting events are beneficial for lots of reasons. Matt Larsen, the highly decorated and respected Army Ranger who developed the Combatives Program (MACP), utilizes ring competition due to the strong merits associated with such activity; not the least of which is the effective training of the mental component connected with martial arts and competition. However, he distinguishes that soldiers are not simply training for the ring, but rather the ring is merely one aspect of training to become part of the warrior group that comprises the military. The COMBATIVES program has a strong foundation in BJJ/CSW techniques.

Therefore, I reiterate that just because one doesn't see, on a frequent basis, a particular lock and/or takedown in professional ring competitions doesn't equate to those techniques not having a valuable place in a street-fight scenario where one statistically isn't going to go against a professional athlete who spends eight hours a day applying and countering grappling techniques. Furthermore, to suggest that not having video footage of applying certain locks/takedowns in a full-contact sparring match at a martial arts academy is proof that the technique doesn't work is faulty logic. But hey, to each his own. I'll continue working on my trapping and grappling since everything I have seen has been to my satisfaction of working in the real world.

Best,
Vernon

[Yum Cha]

You guys really need to learn to differentiate between workable techniques that have evidence for being practical and bogus techniques like the ones that were shown in the original clip.

Hows this? Not really full contact, but, well, friendly training.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqoV_ivujLM

1:04, Backfist
1:15 (similar take to the vid that started this)
1:30, just wait for it...

[Frost]

Hows this? Not really full contact, but, well, friendly training.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqoV_ivujLM

1:04, Backfist
1:15 (similar take to the vid that started this)
1:30, just wait for it...

1.04 looks more like a rising hammer fist to me than a downward backfist (i personally don’t like the downwards backfist as it feels weak to me and ive never seen it as that effective) for me the hammer fist allows more hip and waist into the strike, and notice how the guy moves backwards when hit, making any type of standing lock hard to pull off?

At 1.15 i see a straight forward committed 1 2 strike down the centre through an open guard where the defenders left hand comes across to deal with the opponents left hand and leaves a channel for the right hand to come straight down (one of the reason i like to block out to in and not on the inside of a shot

Nice spinning backfist at the end which is a nice hard power shot and totally different from the downward backfist in terms of power generation

As for the video, (and i know its only a short clip and hard to judge people from) but i would say the guys looked much more comfortable without gloves than with them and more comfortable with body shots than heads shots, so id suggest taking the body armour and the open hand mits off and put on 16oz boxing gloves on and get more used to head shots and continuing the striking rather than stopping after each hit. Which you might very well already be doing but just on the merit of that clip thats what i see a bit lacking

[Kellen Bassette]

1.04 looks more like a rising hammer fist to me than a downward backfist (i personally don’t like the downwards backfist as it feels weak to me and ive never seen it as that effective) for me the hammer fist allows more hip and waist into the strike, and notice how the guy moves backwards when hit, making any type of standing lock hard to pull off?


I never cared for a downward backfist myself, (shoulder/elbow down, fist traveling straight down.) I call that a "vertical backfist. "

I always liked what I call a "horizontal backfist." Shoulder turned over, elbow up, fist travels outwards and at a slight angle up. (Like what you called a "rising hammer fist.") Essentially the only difference would be the hammer would connect with the bottom of the fist, backfist would connect with the back of the knuckles, adding a snap of the wrist as well. Very similar techniques.

[MightyB]

Interesting focus mitt drill for developing the back fist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4ne4nT2EAY

[Yum Cha]

At 1.15 i see a straight forward committed 1 2 strike down the centre through an open guard where the defenders left hand comes across to deal with the opponents left hand and leaves a channel for the right hand to come straight down (one of the reason i like to block out to in and not on the inside of a shot.

I tihink what happened was his bridge missed, but was enough to bring the guard down anyway. And yea, not a back first, but a strike. But the principle is the same, even if it is messy. Good technique and training come through when it gets messy.

And how would you train a novice to learn how to do that?

Maybe a little vid like Ten's?

Hey Frost, Ashton Agar kicks a$$, never seen him train with gloves.....:D

[LaRoux]

Hows this? Not really full contact, but, well, friendly training.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqoV_ivujLM

1:04, Backfist
1:15 (similar take to the vid that started this)
1:30, just wait for it...

Perfect. Thank you.

See how easy it is to show something working in a less than compliant situation.

Now, how about the Americana lock takedown?

[Yum Cha]

Perfect. Thank you.

See how easy it is to show something working in a less than compliant situation.

Now, how about the Americana lock takedown?

Yea, in all honesty, I've played with it, but never felt like it was a high percentage move, and its something complicated, where if you get in that situation, there's something simpler. Not my thing....

And thanks for the nod on the video.
I know its controlled, but its exactly that, trying to play your stuff against a non-compliant opponent who will hit back.

[YouKnowWho]

Yea, in all honesty, I've played with it, but never felt like it was a high percentage move, and its something complicated, where if you get in that situation, there's something simpler. Not my thing.....

When your opponent resists against you, it's always better to use combo and use the 1st move as fake to set up the 2nd move. If you try to straight your opponent's arm by "shoulder lock",

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY3s0Ctqhwk

when he resists, he will try to bend his arm, you can then borrow his arm bending force, and help his arm to bend even more and apply the "elbow lock".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1q-kqsBvbI

Here is how to use shoulder lock as fake to set up elbow lock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iAxSeWEHnI

Old Chinese saying said, "A bad strike is still better than a good lock." There is some truth in it.

[pazman]

I've seen a standing ude-garami (aka ude-gaeshi, aka americana) pulled off twice by the same person in Shodokan Aikido competitions. I think it is a very specialized technique and definitely not a bread and butter technique. I would be very surprised if it were ever used in an mma format. I just can't see it coming off of a jab.

[LaRoux]

Here is how to use shoulder lock as fake to set up elbow lock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iAxSeWEHnI

Old Chinese saying said, "A bad strike is still better than a good lock." There is some truth in it.

More smoke and mirrors.

If the guy in the white shirt was halfway resisting and/or had any clue about grappling, he would have easily countered that and ended up in a superior postion.

[LaRoux]

I've seen a standing ude-garami (aka ude-gaeshi, aka americana) pulled off twice by the same person in Shodokan Aikido competitions. I think it is a very specialized technique and definitely not a bread and butter technique. I would be very surprised if it were ever used in an mma format. I just can't see it coming off of a jab.

Two main problems with the Americana arm lock takedown:

1- Since you have no control of your opponent's body, it's a simple move for him to simply circle away and towards the opposite side of the arm, thus preventing the takedown. If he is bigger/stronger than you are, he will get his arm straight when this happens and he will be in a good position for a standing head/arm choke. Even better is to use the free arm to push his close side shoulder way, which will give him an angle to take the back.

2- Anyone with some basic ground submission knowledge should see that the person doing the takedown has just opened himself up for an arm bar as soon as the person being taken down hits the ground.

[-N-]

Here is how to use shoulder lock as fake to set up elbow lock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iAxSeWEHnI

Old Chinese saying said, "A bad strike is still better than a good lock." There is some truth in it.

Why is he so gappy instead of stepping his right leg through behind you, using a hip strike, and torquing across your face with his right elbow on the americana?

[Vernon]

I agree with the problems of using the "figure four" against a good jab or against a guy with superior grappling skills, especially in an MMA setting since the foundation for lots of those professional level fighters is MT and BJJ. However, against a guy on the street who is grabbing you or not skilled in proper punching I can see the lock being effective.

I just came from a boxing session and I understand that attempting to apply such a lock on one of my training partners would result in eating a cross. But there is a time and place for it otherwise it wouldn't be in the curricula of so many high quality instructors. My goal isn't ring competition but rather reality-based fighting, although of course the two aren't mutually exclusive with a lot of stuff. Therefore, from the lens of street-fighting I contend that the original posted video is an excellent example of traditional martial arts being effectively used.

[YouKnowWho]

Why is he so gappy instead of stepping his right leg through behind you, using a hip strike, and torquing across your face with his right elbow on the americana?
It was a drill for "set up - how to borrow your opponent's resistence". It was not a drill for "finish". This way both you and your opponent can drill more reps and not get tired too quickly.

For example, when you pull, your opponent resists, you can borrow his resistence and change your pull to push and get his leading leg. You can

1. take him down by your single leg everytime.
2. stop after you have obtained his leg.

You may repeat the 1st method 20 times. The same energy that you have spent on method 1, you may repeat the 2nd method 40 times. It's like in Judo that you can drill a throw over and over without throwing your opponent but just putting your opponent's body on your back.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Vernon stated:

"Therefore, from the lens of street-fighting I contend that the original posted video is an excellent example of traditional martial arts being effectively used."

This is untrue. Additionally, one should not assume naivete on the part of street civilians. That alone can get you killed. If you can get clocked in the gym (and I am not talking about sport), you can get clocked on the street. I also saw that right cross. I also saw something a lot worse; a devastating left tiger tail kick to the floating ribs or liver area. What was shown was not a response series that could work in real time. It is a series that could get you hurt and a lot worse. I am talking in the ground to the sound of bagpipes.

mickey

[-N-]

It was a drill for "set up - how to borrow your opponent's resistence". It was not a drill for "finish". This way both you and your opponent can drill more reps and not get tired too quickly.

What if he continues with the entering footwork, leg trap, and kao da, but stop short of the elbow impact and takedown?

That way you get extra conditioning, and a good set up, and you both can continue alternating in the drill.

If he steps back out from the takedown, you can reverse the arm bar, he resists, then you step in for the takedown.

Both people can train impact, entry, and distance correctly.

[Vernon]

Greetings,

Vernon stated:

"Therefore, from the lens of street-fighting I contend that the original posted video is an excellent example of traditional martial arts being effectively used."

This is untrue. Additionally, one should not assume naivete on the part of street civilians. That alone can get you killed. If you can get clocked in the gym (and I am not talking about sport), you can get clocked on the street. I also saw that right cross. I also saw something a lot worse; a devastating left tiger tail kick to the floating ribs or liver area. What was shown was not a response series that could work in real time. It is a series that could get you hurt and a lot worse. I am talking in the ground to the sound of bagpipes.

mickey

Actually, I wasn't stating that one should assume street thugs to be unskilled. Simply that opportunities of effectively applying Americana/figure-four locks in an MMA type setting against well-versed grapplers may not statistically present themselves as often as on the street. I have seen video footage of figure-four locks in ground grappling situations during ring events. I do not recall seeing them used against strikes such as jabs in the ring. I have, however, spoken to guys who claim to have used the arm lock in real life confrontations. I did not witness this firsthand, nor do I have video footage of these encounters; but I do believe the individual accounts. I do believe that there are ample opportunities to use such locks and takedowns on the street and will therefore continue to include them in my repertoire of techniques. Nothing naive about that, IMHO.

We could play the "what if" game forever with just about any posted video. "What if" the guy took out a knife while his arm was being locked, etc., etc., ad nauseam. After all, sometimes real fighting isn't checkers but rather chess.

I think the OP's video was a very useful demonstration of what can work on the street and to a lesser extent in the ring. Other's mileage will vary.

[wenshu]

Actually, I wasn't stating that one should assume street thugs to be unskilled. Simply that opportunities of effectively applying Americana/figure-four locks in an MMA type setting against well-versed grapplers may not statistically present themselves as often as on the street.

I like where your head's at.

The insistence upon the very only bestest mostingly effectivist technique always ever all the time around here gets kind of ridiculous.

[LaRoux]

I like where your head's at.

The insistence upon the very only bestest mostingly effectivist technique always ever all the time around here gets kind of ridiculous.


Yeah, why use only highly effective techniques when you can use much less effective ones instead and hope that the opponent is relatively clueless.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Vernon:

I have absolutely nothing against ANY kind of lock done in a street situation if the opportunity presents itself to do so or if there is a need to do it. The issue with the OP is not the lock at all. It is how the OP arrived at it. I have watched this thread meander to the effectiveness of a lock or a backfist. The problem is the series of movement. It is flawed.


mickey

[MightyB]

I like where your head's at.

The insistence upon the very only bestest mostingly effectivist technique always ever all the time around here gets kind of ridiculous.

One day someone's going to pull it off probably using a technique similar in concept to what YKW was trying to explain in his clip (you pull, I push) and then more peeps will start using the "Americana" as a take down and people like LeRoux will swear up and down that it's one of their approved proven techniques.

meh :rolleyes:

[MightyB]

Aikido isn't on my high list, but just f**k'n around one night in Judo, I did a something similar to this, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB01hhonf8Q) but with intention and it completely floored the guy (circular stepped outside his initial grip, grabbed his wrist, turned hard and to the side, used my other grip for leverage, and lo-and-behold, the technique worked :eek: ). Conceptually, it's not far off from an Americana. Someone WILL pull it off in a spectacular way someday, others will follow.

[wenshu]

Yeah, why use only highly effective techniques when you can use much less effective ones instead and hope that the opponent is relatively clueless.

Yeah, why perpetuate your inferiority complex by perseverating about ineffective techniques on a message board for a marginal, historically diluted, outdated style when you could just admit to yourself that you're never going to amount to anything more than a mediocre martial artist and thats okay because it doesn't matter that you'll never be a champion, you can still train, be safe and have fun.

[MightyB]

Yeah, why perpetuate your inferiority complex by perseverating about ineffective techniques on a message board for a marginal, historically diluted, outdated style when you could just admit to yourself that you're never going to amount to anything more than a mediocre martial artist and thats okay because it doesn't matter that you'll never be a champion, you can still train, be safe and have fun.

We should start a support group.

"Hi, my name is Kurt and I'm a mediocre martial artist and that's ok".

[TenTigers]

"Hi Kurt!":D

[David Jamieson]

There's no such thing as a mediocre martial artist.

You are either able, or unable.

[wenshu]

There's no such thing as a mediocre martial artist.

You are either able, or unable.

http://img9.joyreactor.cc/pics/comment/%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%84%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D0%BF%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%B6%D0%BE%D0%BA-like-a-boss-475259.jpeg

[Yum Cha]

http://img9.joyreactor.cc/pics/comment/%D0%B3%D0%B8%D1%84%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D0%BF%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%B6%D0%BE%D0%BA-like-a-boss-475259.jpeg

Is that your Mother, she looks VERY strong!

[Lucas]

Aikido isn't on my high list, but just f**k'n around one night in Judo, I did a something similar to this, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HB01hhonf8Q) but with intention and it completely floored the guy (circular stepped outside his initial grip, grabbed his wrist, turned hard and to the side, used my other grip for leverage, and lo-and-behold, the technique worked :eek: ). Conceptually, it's not far off from an Americana. Someone WILL pull it off in a spectacular way someday, others will follow.

don't you love it when some guys heads explode when they see an 'impossible' technique working in a match...then it becoming more common place. like how mma comentators **** themselves when head kick KO's started coming out often, cuz 'thats dangerous, low percentage stuff'

remember the old proponents of 'never kick above the waist' LOL now you get head kick KOs on a regular basis.

if i train the **** out of something thats medium percentage, then it can very well become high percentage for me. especially under the circumstances that most sport guys will never train the reversal/reaction/defense against things that are 'not possible'

[Kellen Bassette]

One day someone's going to pull it off probably using a technique similar in concept to what YKW was trying to explain in his clip (you pull, I push) and then more peeps will start using the "Americana" as a take down and people like LeRoux will swear up and down that it's one of their approved proven techniques.

meh :rolleyes:

You mean like side kick, cross kick or jump front kick? Remember when none of that stuff worked, but for some reason it does now?

[Lucas]

i remember watching peoples brains ooze out their ears when cung le got his first body side/back kick tko

[Kellen Bassette]

i remember watching peoples brains ooze out their ears when cung le got his first body side/back kick tko

Of course that combo will never work, if you never train it. Funny how the percentages start to rise when you actually train the stuff....

[Lucas]

Of course that combo will never work, if you never train it. Funny how the percentages start to rise when you actually train the stuff....

whoa! did you just use common sense here?

thats not cool bro, fukin knock it off

[MightyB]

whoa! did you just use common sense here?

thats not cool bro, fukin knock it off

Yeah what the fuk? Bann that Ahole! How dare he come in all rationale like, talk'n stuff like that.

[-N-]

Why is he so gappy instead of stepping his right leg through behind you, using a hip strike, and torquing across your face with his right elbow on the americana?

Less gappy:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/4dfa3fe229440ab94eea4536a7d06641.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

Less gappy:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/4dfa3fe229440ab94eea4536a7d06641.jpg

Sometime you just want to train certain feeling. Train smart and not train hard.

[TenTigers]

I've added a s***load of more videos for your viewing pleasure..or displeasure.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHkUCZKtBwUnWO7Pra-F3Ug
Either way, enjoy.
I will now hide under my desk awaiting the first salvo...

[TenTigers]

why does it say,"Last edited by Master Killer.." ?????

[Brule]

why does it say,"Last edited by Master Killer.." ?????

...there's a glitch in the Matrix.....