TMA Training Tools vs Weapons

[mickey]

Greetings,

This is something that has been bugging me for a while.

With the changes going on in this country and throughout the world, it may become increasingly difficult to train the hoplological aspects of our disciplines if we continue to refer to them as weapons and if the wholesalers/retailers of such products continue to refer to them as so. Using the term "weapon" suggests the intent to do harm to someone else and I think it is the use of this word that causes our disciplines to receive much undeserved scrutiny.

A few years ago, I went to have a few "weapon" heads chrome plated. The guy refused to do so because I referred to them as weapons. Instead of turning me away he used a different word to make the transaction possible. He used the word "ornament". Looking back on that, I realized that he was correct. The heads were not intended to do harm to anyone. And the word stayed with me.

If we do not take a stand and make clear that our study of hoplology is one of cultural preservation and that the ornaments/tools we use are intended to support that, it will become impossible to make such purchases in the future.

For the most part, what we buy are not sharpened.

Please discuss.

mickey

[David Jamieson]

Buying? Selling? Answering questions about your traditional martial arts weapons?

Always call them ornamental and for cultural practice.

Always. It's been that way for my whole life. Mainly because I'm a Canadian and when we buy a hand gun we cannot say it is for any thing other than target practice. Rifles and shotguns are for hunting in season.

Ever.

I don't know why we put ourselves through these silly hoops, but we do and as long as we have to, I guess I'm going to. lol

[xinyidizi]

Call them taichi tools used for spiritual enlightenment

[GeneChing]

It's hard to transport 'weapons' across borders, whether it be through customs in your luggage or in a shipment. We've had staffs (http://www.martialartsmart.com/weapons-staffs-batons.html) stopped.

[pazman]

Since kung fu people rarely, if ever, actually practice with weapons as if they are really weapons, it's best to call them "training implements" for your "cultural dance" routines.

[-N-]

[...]"cultural dance" routines.

Sad but true.

[David Jamieson]

Sad but true.

well, would you rather be getting into street battle with machetes and axes?
lol.

martial arts is all a cultural dance until the glove lands on the eye that ain't guiding it. :)

[lkfmdc]

It's hard to transport 'weapons' across borders, whether it be through customs in your luggage or in a shipment. We've had staffs (http://www.martialartsmart.com/weapons-staffs-batons.html) stopped.

it could have been far worse, imagine if it was in fact a shippment of staves

;)

[Jui heshang]

While most TCMA weapons that are used are not always combat ready, I feel the practice is still practical in forms and two man drills. The use of the different sizes and shapes double and single weapons, two hand and one weapons, help with building arm strength, dexterity, and coordination.

The techniques of many traditional weapons can be applied to common objects we may find around us in a self-defense situation.

[David Jamieson]

While most TCMA weapons that are used are not always combat ready, I feel the practice is still practical in forms and two man drills. The use of the different sizes and shapes double and single weapons, two hand and one weapons, help with building arm strength, dexterity, and coordination.

The techniques of many traditional weapons can be applied to common objects we may find around us in a self-defense situation.

Or you can run someone into a wall and then hit them with a chair.
Follow up with throwing something heavy at their head. Like an ashtray, or a pool ball. This works. :p

[Lucas]

I had someone throw a big round glass ashtray at me one time. but i dodged it. so he pulled a gun on me. i should have gone down with the ashtray.

lesson?

dont ever dodge the ashtray, just take it like a man.

[TaichiMantis]

The techniques of many traditional weapons can be applied to common objects we may find around us in a self-defense situation.

Number one in the Jackie Chan Rules of Street Fighting :D

[David Jamieson]

I had someone throw a big round glass ashtray at me one time. but i dodged it. so he pulled a gun on me. i should have gone down with the ashtray.

lesson?

dont ever dodge the ashtray, just take it like a man.

Well, you shouldn't have screwed his wife then.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I see that the thread has meandered a little.

It is not about the usage, it is about proper labeling to ensure that we can continue to pursue what we love. Unfortunately, MA magazines do this, MA catalogs do this, etc. We need to uniformly take the responsibility in the proper labeling of our tools.

-N-:

Hoplology is a term created by the late Donn Draeger for the research and understanding of the usage of ancient weapons. It was not about sword dances.


mickey

[mickey]

Continuing....

If we don't take the necessary steps, I see a vast change in the materials that are used to create our tools: plastic, cheap wood, junkyard steel. The price of a wooden sword will leap.

Responsibility is also very important for retailers. One time I went to a MA store and I saw shuriken in the display. I asked about them and in the sellers response he offered to sharpen them for me. I was fourteen at the time.

mickey

[GeneChing]

If we don't take the necessary steps, I see a vast change in the materials that are used to create our tools: plastic, cheap wood, junkyard steel. That happened a long time ago. Centuries ago. Well, maybe not the plastic - that's only within the last few decades. But if you compare the quality of genuine antiques, only the really high-end stuff made today comes close. Close, mind you, not always as good.

That being said, you cannot shape language. I would love to rectify the use of 'broadsword' for dao (http://www.martialartsmart.com/weapons-chinese-weapons-broadswords.html) in America, but it's just impossible to do so, even for me sitting in control of the largest English language CMA publication in the nation.

The topic of proper labeling was somewhat addressed in Wushu Needs Name Rectification (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=581) by An Tianrong, although that was directed to more general terms than weapons. We ran it because it broached an intriguing topic, but not because it was an achievable goal. Americans will say what they please - language is a virus.

[Lucas]

Well, you shouldn't have screwed his wife then.

Hey! I don't mess with married women...now he may have a daughter...

I kid, I kid.

[GeneChing]

now he may have a daughter... Where's my ashtray? The big round glass one! Where is it!?!?!

[mickey]

Gene,

"...me sitting in control of the largest English language CMA publication in the nation."

I get the distinct feeling that you so enjoyed typing that. :)

Back on topic:

I was not talking about quality, which has always been an issue. I am talking about availability. The social language is difficult to control, I agree. It is the commercial language that can be influenced. Let us start there:

"We carry the largest selection of martial arts training tools that cater to both the performance minded and the research enthusiast. They are all sold unsharpened."

"Our training ornaments cater to both the performance minded and the eager research enthusiast. They are sold unsharpened"


mickey

[HungKuenH]

some shops in HK call it instruments and not weapons.

[Lucas]

Where's my ashtray? The big round glass one! Where is it!?!?!

Ask your daughter. ;)

[GeneChing]

I get the distinct feeling that you so enjoyed typing that. :) I did indeed, in retrospect. Gotta grab those little perks when you can.


It is the commercial language that can be influenced. Let us start there:

"We carry the largest selection of martial arts training tools that cater to both the performance minded and the research enthusiast. They are all sold unsharpened."

"Our training ornaments cater to both the performance minded and the eager research enthusiast. They are sold unsharpened" Wait, ornaments? That's so Hong Kong. ;) Commercial language is even harder to control. All vendors are competitors, so they won't agree on a specific vocabulary. They can't even agree on fair pricing, especially on the web.


Ask your daughter. ;) **** the ashtray. I'm going straight for the gun. I know where my gun is. :mad:

[mickey]

Greetings,

Gene,

At some point they will have to agree on some vocabulary or they will not be selling this goods any more. It is about taking responsibility, taking power, before it is taken away by some politically paranoid imp. And we have more than enough of those imps than we need.

mickey

[Lucas]

**** the ashtray. I'm going straight for the gun. I know where my gun is. :mad:

I'm noticing a 'fuk the ashtray, im going for my gun' trend...

[Yum Cha]

Or you can run someone into a wall and then hit them with a chair.
Follow up with throwing something heavy at their head. Like an ashtray, or a pool ball. This works. :p

Shibumi!.....

[-N-]

-N-:

Hoplology is a term created by the late Donn Draeger for the research and understanding of the usage of ancient weapons. It was not about sword dances.

Right. And I was agreeing with Pazman that many people aren't training weapon skills as much as they are just "dancing".

Not much correct partner weapon training going on, let alone weapon sparring.

And most 2 person forms are done without realistic timing, partners deliberately aim off target, people are not even in correct range, they anticipate and block attacks that aren't even there, and they flail around having no feel of the weapon's inherent dynamics or how to coordinate them with the principles of their particular kung fu system.

This weekend we just happened to be working with students on applications of spear and staff techniques. They were doing partner drills on thrusts, slams, parries, traps, and disarms.

Not actual sparring, but they did work on proper usage of the weapons and internal body mechanics when catching, sticking, and pressuring in for counterattack.

[YouKnowWho]

many people aren't training weapon skills as much as they are just "dancing".
If you use your weapon to hit

- on a solid object (such as a tree), you are training "combat".
- into the thin air, you are "dancing".

The worst problem is some people still think that they are training "combat" and not just "dancing". I know the word "combat" may upset many people, but I truly don't know another better word that's opposite to "dancing".

[-N-]

If you use your weapon to hit

- on a solid object (such as a tree), you are training "combat".
- into the thin air, you are "dancing".

The worst problem is some people still think that they are training "combat" and not just "dancing". I know the word "combat" may upset many people, but I truly don't know another better word that's opposite to "dancing".

Interesting, the difference between sport and combat.


This weekend we just happened to be working with students on applications of spear and staff techniques. They were doing partner drills on thrusts, slams, parries, traps, and disarms.

Not actual sparring, but they did work on proper usage of the weapons and internal body mechanics when catching, sticking, and pressuring in for counterattack.

One of the students had several years background in fencing. I explained the disarm and hand attack to him, "You have this in your fencing." He said, "Yeah, it's like an expulsion."

I wasn't familiar with the term, but Googled some commentary just now saying it isn't used much in competition because judges call a halt on disarm, so you don't get to score.

Whereas in TCMA, you combine expulsion with hand attack, and follow up immediately with a thrust attack.

[-N-]

Interesting, the difference between sport and combat.

But at least sport isn't dancing.

[Jimbo]

Right. And I was agreeing with Pazman that many people aren't training weapon skills as much as they are just "dancing".

Not much correct partner weapon training going on, let alone weapon sparring.

And most 2 person forms are done without realistic timing, partners deliberately aim off target, people are not even in correct range, they anticipate and block attacks that aren't even there, and they flail around having no feel of the weapon's inherent dynamics or how to coordinate them with the principles of their particular kung fu system.

This weekend we just happened to be working with students on applications of spear and staff techniques. They were doing partner drills on thrusts, slams, parries, traps, and disarms.

Not actual sparring, but they did work on proper usage of the weapons and internal body mechanics when catching, sticking, and pressuring in for counterattack.

My favorite CMA weapon remains the long staff, because it's the one weapon our CLF school trained not only applications, but free-sparring (with padded staffs/staves?). The sparring staffs were obviously much thicker and were heavier than a real one, but still smarted a bit. It was a great way to become natural with the weapon/implement. I only wish there was a way to do the same, but with a narrower padded staff, so the grip will more closely approximate the grip used with a regular wooden staff.