Using heavy weapons for strength training

[xinyidizi]

Since it's unrelated to YKW's Taiji thread I want to continue this discussion here. I like using weapons heavier than normal for my training because by using them I can train many things at the same time. Besides they are much more interesting. So my question is for kungfu's strength training what can normal weight training give me that heavy weapons can't.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Since it's unrelated to YKW's Taiji thread I want to continue this discussion here. I like using weapons heavier than normal for my training because by using them I can train many things at the same time. Besides they are much more interesting. So my question is for kungfu's strength training what can normal weight training give me that heavy weapons can't.

It's common place in weapons system to use heavier "weapons' in training at times to increase your strength ( and to make the real weapon lighter by comparison).
Pretty much every weapons system has that.
It builds "movement specific strength" that is not always built with general strength training ( especially the specialty stabilizers and such).
It is NOT a replacement for general strength building, just as general strength build is NOT a replacement for specific strength building.
It is important to lose that "either/or" mentality that many people have in the MA because of lack of understanding.

You question here is interesting:

what can normal weight training give me that heavy weapons can't

Normal, ie" general strength training, strengthens to WHOLE of your body as a unit, which in short HELPS with specific strength training.

In other words, general strength is what helps you push a car, lift a piano, carry 3 cases of beer in one arm and specific is what allows you to kick ass WHILE doing that ;P

[Golden Arms]

Ask your Sifu.

If more people did that we wouldn't have half the garbage on this forum that we do. Unfortunately it might also highlight how many of the vocal posters on this forum are not qualified to be Sifu's and do not have Sifu's of their own.

Equipment training has a huge role in any functional Chinese martial art that I am aware of. Some do it with weights, some do it with weapons or other equipment, some do it with both.

[bawang]

It's common place in weapons system to use heavier "weapons' in training at times to increase your strength ( and to make the real weapon lighter by comparison).
Pretty much every weapons system has that.
It builds "movement specific strength" that is not always built with general strength training ( especially the specialty stabilizers and such).
It is NOT a replacement for general strength building, just as general strength build is NOT a replacement for specific strength building.
It is important to lose that "either/or" mentality that many people have in the MA because of lack of understanding.

You question here is interesting:


Normal, ie" general strength training, strengthens to WHOLE of your body as a unit, which in short HELPS with specific strength training.

In other words, general strength is what helps you push a car, lift a piano, carry 3 cases of beer in one arm and specific is what allows you to kick ass WHILE doing that ;P

he fails to mention that with heavy weapon training you also have to wear 80 pound weight vest.

there is no "easy" kung fu exercise

lol @ poosies who look for ways to escape hard work

[YouKnowWho]

what can normal weight training give me that heavy weapons can't.

The

- "normal weight training" can only give you strength.
- "heavy weapons training" can give you strength + combat skill.

For example, you can work on weight. You can also work on a throwing dummy. By working on a throwing dummy, you can "kill 2 birds with 1 stone".

If you are truly serious in CMA training, and if your training time is limited, it's not hard to decide which method is better for you.

[pazman]

There's nothing wrong with training with heavy weapons, but you can't substitute that for a strength training program with weights. It's wrong in thinking that they are equivalent.

Weight lifting for strength will increase you maximum strength, which is the core of any physical activity. Even if maximum strength isn't an immediate goal, increasing maximum strength will make other attributes (power, endurance, coordination, etc) easier to train. In essence, a basic weightlifting program, which requires 2 or 3 one hour sessions a week on your part, will enhance your heavy weapons practice.

Weight lifting using the basic lifts like squat, bench press, and dead lift is a sure and safe way to efficiently increase your maximum strength. Other activities just don't compare in terms of efficiency.

[YouKnowWho]

There's nothing wrong with training with heavy weapons, but you can't substitute that for a strength training program with weights. It's wrong in thinking that they are equivalent.
I assume when xinyidizi mentioned "using heavy weapons". He wanted to use heavy weapon to develop some "combat" skill, and not just to use heavy weapon to build strength. So the word "combat" is important here.

The following statement can also be written in the other way.

There's nothing wrong with "weight training", but you can't substitute that for a "heavy weapon training". It's wrong in thinking that they are equivalent.

If by using your sword to chop your opponent's head off is your highest priority, the more time that you can hold on your sword, the more chance that you can achieve your goal. Bench press just doesn't have any "dirrect" connection to "cut someone's head off".

A baseball player would swing 4 baseball bats before his 1st swing. Should he do bench press before his 1st swing instead?

If we expand the heavy weapon training a bit more, by using "hip throw" to throw your opponent 1,000 times, you can develop your "hip throw" (his body weight will be your weight training). By lifting your weight 1,000 times cannot help you to develop your "hip throw".

[xinyidizi]

Thanks for the answers.


Ask your Sifu.

If more people did that we wouldn't have half the garbage on this forum that we do.

My Shifu had me train with heavy weapons and he told me that this was a more efficient way of using my time.


I assume when xinyidizi mentioned "using heavy weapons". He wanted to use heavy weapon to develop some "combat" skill, and not just to use heavy weapon to build strength. So the word "combat" is important here.

Exactly. I think time and energy are both limited and it's better to train strength exactly the way I am going to use it and even for the empty hand combat , weapon movements are still much closer.

[YouKnowWho]

Baseball players train with heavy weight baseball bat too.

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/7382/36ky.jpg

[pazman]

If he is going for combat skill, then I assume he already trains with heavy weapons and a weight vest and does all two man drills with wooden trainer weapons. Xinzidizi, is this true?

However, to call it "strength" training is a misnomer. If you train for a long period of time it would be "endurance" training. If you use big, powerful moves it would "power" training. But that kind of training is not an efficient way to develop maximum strength.

Bench press may not be directly related to swinging a bat, but dead lift and squats are. Baseball players do all of them, as do any professional athlete.

[bawang]

Bench press may not be directly related to swinging a bat, but dead lift and squats are. Baseball players do all of them, as do any professional athlete.

a lot of times the "ancient wise lineage" come from ragtag government irregulars/meat shields

elite level Chinese martial artists ALL lifted weights. this is why weight lifting is so emphasized in shaolin kung fu, they are elite level.

if a generals standard is high, even the meat shields lift weights. for example, in he family army every typical conscript lifted around 300 pounds.

heavy weapons are for endurance training, they cant increase your strength. you have to hit a wooden post with a stick to develop power.

[YouKnowWho]

The main argument is, a swordman may not care about "maximum strength". In "combat", whether you can cut your opponent's head off with a swing of 500 lb or just a swing of 100 lb, it won't make much difference for that "flying head". :D

This guy looks strong in the movie.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=7+samurai+movie&qpvt=7+samurai+movie&FORM=IGRE#view=detail&id=C829084F22F4E81C94C2EFE53C917F9705083487&selectedIndex=17

This guy doesn't look as strong but he is a better swordman in that movie.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-EAuFz1V2sLg/TxxvgmdPrEI/AAAAAAAAFbw/Hj9N_5OD61M/s1600/post-2719-1272180762.jpg

In weapon combat, speed is much more important than strength.

[bawang]

The main argument is, a swordman may not care about "maximum strength". In "combat", whether you can cut your opponent's head off with a swing of 500 lb or just a swing of 100 lb, it won't make much difference for that "flying head". :D

long range is about endurance. short range is about flanking and first strike. maximum strength matters.

in ancient formation battle japanese can cut off both the arm and spear shaft in one strike. guan dao can cut through 5 or more people in one pass.

a famous story about guan dao is "one strike three heads". the head of the horse, breaking the sword blocking, and the head of the rider, in single strike.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It is quite correct t state that IF you can do both ( strength AND skill) then you will get the most out of your time.
It works in theory though and not as much in practice and this is why modern athletes do both ( their priorities being dictated by what stage they are in their development or coming into a match).
Here is the thing and using the sword as an example:
Your ability to fight with a sword is based on how much an dhow well you fight with THAT sword ( curved vs straight for example).
Using a heavier or longer ( or both) may work your strength more BUT your technique in using the actual sword will "suffer" ( not the quotations).
You must balance the actual training and fighting with the actual weapon ( majority of the time) with the specialized training with a heavier weapon ( minority of the time).

An ideal approach includes, in terms of strength building, BOTH general and task specific.

[David Jamieson]

Since it's unrelated to YKW's Taiji thread I want to continue this discussion here. I like using weapons heavier than normal for my training because by using them I can train many things at the same time. Besides they are much more interesting. So my question is for kungfu's strength training what can normal weight training give me that heavy weapons can't.

well, it's a totally different focus, so there's a lot that lifting will do for you that weapons play cannot.

Kung Fu strength training never didn't include weight training in the form of weights, locks, balls, devices, etc.

I like using heavy training weapons because when you get the actual there are no weapon retention issues and you are able to hold that thing up and use it longer and stronger than if you had trained with the actual alone.

[pazman]

General strength training improves all aspects of gongfu training.

Heavy weapon training improves only one.

How's that for efficient use of your time?

[sanjuro_ronin]

General strength training improves all aspects of gongfu training.

Heavy weapon training improves only one.

How's that for efficient use of your time?

It is important to understand HOW specific ST is done in TCMA:
EX: Heavy sword -
The swinging and cutting and stabbing and footwork done works ALL of the body, especially the core and the stabalizers.
It is a whole body workout and while it does NOT work the whole body as well as doing a whole body compound workout does, it does improve all aspects of ones chosen TCMA.

[YouKnowWho]

General strength training improves all aspects of gongfu training.


It is important to understand HOW specific ST is done in TCMA:

Agree with sanjuro_ronin on this. I think this is the most mis-understanding part. Here is one example.

In order to appy the leg twisting technique,

http://imageshack.us/a/img846/4981/legtwisting.jpg

http://www.vxv.com/video/VeWBIhACx6iN/shuai-jiao-grip-fighting-leg-twisting.html

You can use your "single head" to "enhance" your leg twisting power.

http://imageshack.us/a/img508/7338/singleheadlegtwist.jpg

General strength can help you to use your leg to lift your opponent's leg up.

http://imageshack.us/a/img560/7456/qdfn.jpg

But it won't be able to help you to "twist" on your opponent's leg and crash your opponent's body structure "before you lift his leg up".

The only way to develop your "leg twisting" power is to use your leg to "twist" on some solid object, not lift, not push, and not pull.

[David Jamieson]

The only way to develop your "leg twisting" power is to use your leg to "twist" on some solid object.

This is device training and you are right, specific devices are used.

But, I wouldn't discount general strength training in any way shape or form. It can only add to functional strength being developed with specific methods and / or devices.

[Golden Arms]

No need to disregard any of it. How about this question:

What is going to give me the most bang for my buck for the time invested?

If you train 3 hours a day the answer to this question may be very different than if you have 1 hour every other day to train.

For instance, a person that spends 1.5 hours per workout wrestling with people may need much less strength training than the person that does not wrestle at all. A person that does manual labor for a job will have very different attributes from one that works on a computer. How you train your art dictates what you need to supplement your training with.

[YouKnowWho]

No need to disregard any of it. How about this question:

What is going to give me the most bang for my buck for the time invested?

If you train 3 hours a day the answer to this question may be very different than if you have 1 hour every other day to train.

For instance, a person that spends 1.5 hours per workout wrestling with people may need much less strength training than the person that does not wrestle at all. A person that does manual labor for a job will have very different attributes from one that works on a computer. How you train your art dictates what you need to supplement your training with.

That's exactly how I look at this as well. You make it very clear - What is going to give me the most bang for my buck for the time invested?

The guy used a long and heavy sword in the following clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHBgVtrUFlk

It's not hard to see the benefit out of it comparing to use a light weight sword.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox6UQiS4_08

[bawang]

this is how u train with a heavy weapon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkundWVLKI4
you don't "play" with heavy weapon.

[YouKnowWho]

this is how u train with a heavy weapon.

http://imageshack.us/a/img808/8553/stick1h.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

But, I wouldn't discount general strength training in any way shape or form. It can only add to functional strength being developed with specific methods and / or devices.
Of course "general" strength training is important too. There is no argument on that. You can use "double_heads" to develop "寸劲(Cun Jin) - inch force" and "爆发力(Bao Fa Li) - explosive power" which is more than just the muscle strength.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glSoMbLD3LM&feature=youtu.be

[Kellen Bassette]

there is no "easy" kung fu exercise


People seem to want to forget this.

[xinyidizi]

People seem to want to forget this.

Do you really think training with a heavy guandao is easy?

[xinyidizi]

It is important to understand HOW specific ST is done in TCMA:
EX: Heavy sword -
The swinging and cutting and stabbing and footwork done works ALL of the body, especially the core and the stabalizers.
It is a whole body workout and while it does NOT work the whole body as well as doing a whole body compound workout does, it does improve all aspects of ones chosen TCMA.

I think the most important part of power generation for TCMA is a complex coordination of muscles in movement and not just the strength of the individual muscles. A combination of heavy sword, guandao, spear, ... can train every possible body movement needed in TCMA.

[SPJ]

Since it's unrelated to YKW's Taiji thread I want to continue this discussion here. I like using weapons heavier than normal for my training because by using them I can train many things at the same time. Besides they are much more interesting. So my question is for kungfu's strength training what can normal weight training give me that heavy weapons can't.

We do both.

Weight lifting or strength training, we develop individual muscle tone at a time.

Weapon training:

1 we use light weight ones to learn correct and accurate moves first.

2 we use normal weight weapon to practice.

3 depending on the weapon, sword or staff, using heavy weapon may hurt our wrist and joint when wielding them. not recommended.

4 however, we do use extra long staff to practice a few limited moves to develop certain physical attributes. But never use it to fight.

There.

:)

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think the most important part of power generation for TCMA is a complex coordination of muscles in movement and not just the strength of the individual muscles. A combination of heavy sword, guandao, spear, ... can train every possible body movement needed in TCMA.

It is a common misunderstanding that some people have that they think "strength training" and think "individual muscles".
That is only ONE type of ST protocol.
That is a "classical bodybuilding" protocol.
A CLassical STRENGTH one tends to focus on heavy COMPOUND moves that work the whole of the body AND the CNS.

[David Jamieson]

People seem to want to forget this.

Yep. Everybody wants to be a guru and most of them don't want to do the work.

When I was 17 there was no such thing as an obese sifu or sensei.

Now they are everywhere, labouring in their breathing while they teach little kids to stand funny.

I just consider it one more layer of onion skin to get through before you find a decent place, teacher, art etc.

But in truth, it is one thing that really sticks in my craw about typical tma.

[xinyidizi]

It is a common misunderstanding that some people have that they think "strength training" and think "individual muscles".
That is only ONE type of ST protocol.
That is a "classical bodybuilding" protocol.
A CLassical STRENGTH one tends to focus on heavy COMPOUND moves that work the whole of the body AND the CNS.

In that case I'm more interested to learn more about that kind of protocol but regarding developing power and utilizing it in TCMA don't you think what this random guy does with his 17.5 kg dadao (or if he can do even a heavier weapon) is already the best heavy compound moves for the strength he wants to use in his martial art?

http://www.56.com/u55/v_MzE3ODQ2NzY.html

[bawang]

LOL 40 pound

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzesAiOs-UY&feature=player_detailpage&t=982

get 140 pound u poosy

[sanjuro_ronin]

In that case I'm more interested to learn more about that kind of protocol but regarding developing power and utilizing it in TCMA don't you think what this random guy does with his 17.5 kg dadao (or if he can do even a heavier weapon) is already the best heavy compound moves for the strength he wants to use in his martial art?

http://www.56.com/u55/v_MzE3ODQ2NzY.html

Why do you feel it is an either/or situation?
Task specific ST always has SOME carry over to general strength and vice-versa off course.
But why do only one?

In our everyday lives we use far more general than specific strength and while there is always some carry-over, it doesn't make any sense to only do one or the other, especially since we typically do "task specific ST" when we do our MA part of training and do general strength when we do our "conditioning" part.

What I mean is this:
Swinging and thrusting a 75lb iron "bo" will give you much lots of strength and endurance to do just that, with some general carry over strength.
BUT, how much do you think that will help you to move furniture? to move a fridge? carry bags of cement to do yard work? etc?
Now, how much do you think your ability to deadlift 350lbs will help for those tasks?
Which do you think will have the most carryover?

Add to that the fact that your ability to use a 75lbs "bo" will be greatly enhanced when you are, well, just plain stronger from doing basic, compound strength training.

In short, why limit your MA by limiting your ST?

[xinyidizi]

@bawang:

That's a random guy. In a quick search I couldn't find anything heavier for the type of moves I meant. My Shishu does 90 kg but this is not the type of moves I meant:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzY4NzQ3NzYw.html

[xinyidizi]

In short, why limit your MA by limiting your ST?

It's not because I want to limit myself. It's because my time and energy are limited. If the object of the training is to train until you get close to your limit for one day and have to rest then it becomes an either/or situation. Should I use the remaining of my energy on the weapon where I can also practice combat moves, explosive power,... or on deadlift.

[GeneChing]

I need the most efficient way to train my Kwan Dao (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-81cs.html)! Honestly now, wtf does that mean? What are you training your Kwan Dao for? The street? The cage? Come on now. Don't just apply trending training jargon to anything and everything. When I see anyone wielding a super heavy weapon, I'm impressed. That's real kung fu. That's high-level skill developed over time and hard effort.

Heavy Kwan Dao demos are seen in traditional Chinese acrobatics as an art form, just like heavy bow drawing. It's sort of like a circus strong man act. Nothing wrong with that at all. In fact, if you've ever seen one of these performances, they are pretty entertaining.

If you want to train heavy weapons, go for it. Be cautious, don't overdo it, and progress gradually.

[xinyidizi]

As I said I didn't mean acrobatic super heavy guandao. That is not a weapon anymore and their moves are not related to combat so much. However the "normal" heavy weapons can directly benefit the explosive power, body method, footwork, ... used in both weapon and unarmed combat.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It's not because I want to limit myself. It's because my time and energy are limited. If the object of the training is to train until you get close to your limit for one day and have to rest then it becomes an either/or situation. Should I use the remaining of my energy on the weapon where I can also practice combat moves, explosive power,... or on deadlift.

Well, if you want to make the MOST of your training time, I would suggest you not "waste" time with things that serve no useful purpose either in your every day life or why you do MA, in short?
Why train with a weapon you will NEVER use if your time is so limited ??

[bawang]

he doesn't want to lift weights because lift weights is hard. and he says the 180 pound da dao swing is not the "right kind" of his exercise because its too hard.

he likes the idea of dancing and prancing around with little baby weight 40 pound weapons, that's basically bicep curling 20 pound each hand LOL

[bawang]

I need the most efficient way to train my Kwan Dao (http://www.martialartsmart.com/45-81cs.html)! Honestly now, wtf does that mean?

like dis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npvMcMUyB3c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL11B8C28E7C18DCCA&v=NpAzvgOyL9Q&feature=player_detailpage&t=93

[xinyidizi]

he doesn't want to lift weights because lift weights is hard. and he says the 180 pound da dao swing is not the "right kind" of his exercise because its too hard.

he likes the idea of dancing and prancing around with little baby weight 40 pound weapons, that's basically bicep curling 20 pound each hand LOL

I'm sure as a weapon heavier than 17.5 kg is also possible so since you practice the "real Taichi" you should be familiar with the chen style dadao set. Maybe you can show us your video doing the set better than that skinny guy does using a heavier dadao. Or is it that you have never tried it before? :rolleyes: LOL

[bawang]

I'm sure as a weapon heavier than 17.5 kg is also possible so since you practice the "real Taichi" you should be familiar with the chen style dadao set. Maybe you can show us your video doing the set better than that skinny guy does using a heavier dadao. Or is it that you have never tried it before? :rolleyes: LOL

yes I have tried, which is why I know ur talking out ur ass. u cant shadowbox with heavy weapons, the momentum will injure u.

[YouKnowWho]

get 140 pound u poosy

Sometime too much weight is not a good idea. I started my square bag throwing from 16 lb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR3v76TsiCw&feature=youtu.be

Oneday I gradulate increased to 23 lbs, 1st my female students started to complain. Later some male students felt pulling muscle in their shoulder joint. I soon drop the weight back down to 21 lb and never passed that.

In the gym, I will use the weight pulley in fast motion (fast pull, fast release). If I just work on 55 lb, I'll be OK. Whenever I worked on 60 lb (just 5 lb more), I could feel some pulling muscle in my elbow joint.

Heavy weight and speed just don't go together. It makes no sense to injury your body by weight work out. You should dominate weight. Never let weight to dominate you.

[YouKnowWho]

Why train with a weapon you will NEVER use if your time is so limited ??

Agree 100% there. There are so many combat skills that we can develop in our life time. I prefer to spend my training time in something that I can use in my next fight (if that will ever happen).

What's the most important combat skill? I'll say "一撃必殺 - one punch to kill". How to achieve it? Use your fist to meet your heavy bag as much as you can.

[bawang]

Sometime too much weight is not a good idea. I started my square bag throwing from 16 lb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR3v76TsiCw&feature=youtu.be

Oneday I gradulate increased to 23 lbs, 1st my female students started to complain. Later some male students felt pulling muscle in their shoulder joint. I soon drop the weight back down to 21 lb and never passed that.

In the gym, I will use the weight pulley in fast motion (fast pull, fast release). If I just work on 55 lb, I'll be OK. Whenever I worked on 60 lb (just 5 lb more), I could feel some pulling muscle in my elbow joint.

Heavy weight and speed just don't go together. You should dominate weight. Never let weight to dominate you.

this is not about heavy weights, this is about him being fascinated by "exotic oriental exercise"

[sanjuro_ronin]

Sometime too much weight is not a good idea. I started my square bag throwing from 16 lb.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR3v76TsiCw&feature=youtu.be

Oneday I gradulate increased to 23 lbs, 1st my female students started to complain. Later some male students felt pulling muscle in their shoulder joint. I soon drop the weight back down to 21 lb and never passed that.

In the gym, I will use the weight pulley in fast motion (fast pull, fast release). If I just work on 55 lb, I'll be OK. Whenever I worked on 60 lb (just 5 lb more), I could feel some pulling muscle in my elbow joint.

Heavy weight and speed just don't go together. You should dominate weight. Never let weight to dominate you.


You need to progress to the point that you CAN increase the resistance.
Many people jump to quickly and get hurt or lose their form.
Slow progression is crucial when using ANY resistance in an explosive manner.

[YouKnowWho]

You need to progress to the point that you CAN increase the resistance.
Many people jump to quickly and get hurt or lose their form.
Slow progression is crucial when using ANY resistance in an explosive manner.

If you use "constant speed" on your heavy weight, it will be OK for your joints. If you use weight to develop "寸劲(Cun Jin) - inch force" and "爆发力(Bao Fa Li) - explosive power", Too much weight will hurt your joints.

A simple example, if you hold on a 50 lb dumbbell, straight your arm and then bend your arm in "fast speed", and repeat it 60 times, you will feel injury in your elbow joint.

I had hurt my elbow joints 5 times in my life. 3 times was from the weight pulley in my gym. twice was from lifting up my throwing dummy on the ground "too fast". After that I have only 2 choices,

1. reduce speed and maintain the same weight, or
2. maintain the speed and reduce the weight.

I took the 2nd option.

[YouKnowWho]

In many people's "training log", you may see:

Bench: 100kg
Deadlift: 190kg
Squat: probably about 140/150kg
BW: 90

Why is it so popular for people to talk about their daily weight training and not their daily "skill development"? Something like:

Jab/cross 200 times,
roundhouse kick 200 times,
hip throw 300 times,
single leg 300 times,
- ...

[Brule]

In many people's "log", you may see:

Bench: 100kg
Deadlift: 190kg
Squat: probably about 140/150kg
BW: 90

Why is it so popular for people to talk about their daily weight training and not their daily "skill development"?

weight training is quantifiable whereas skill development not so much. Probably also ego driven.

[pazman]

In many people's "log", you may see:

Bench: 100kg
Deadlift: 190kg
Squat: probably about 140/150kg
BW: 90

Why is it so popular for people to talk about their daily weight training and not their daily "skill development"? Something like:

Jab/cross 200 times,
roundhouse kick 200 times,
hip throw 300 times,
single leg 300 times,
- ...

If I do endurance training I make sure to include repetitions and times in my log.

For kickboxing workouts I will include number of rounds spent on heavy bag, mitts, etc.

The difference is that if I squat 3 sets of 6 at 130 kg, it's objective...either I did it or I didn't. For skills, I can't always be certain if I had 3 great rounds on the heavy bag or 3 mediocre rounds.

[sanjuro_ronin]

weight training is quantifiable whereas skill development not so much. Probably also ego driven.

Both are correct.
See, weight training is uni formally quantifiable.
Benching 300lbs for 5 reps is benching 300 lbs for 5 reps.
Now, we can argue about form, but the point is to lift 300lbs off your chest and hold it there.
3 guys can throw 500 kicks into a bag and all 3 will throw then with different intensities and speed.

See what I am saying?

A guy saying he can do bag work for 30 min non-stop means nothing because it isn't quantifiable ( intensity and force not being able to be "counted").
A guy saying he can deadlift 400LBS means something.

[YouKnowWho]

Some people may think that

weight training = combat training

that's what I don't understand. I have always associated "weight training" and "long distance running" as "health maintenance" and not combat related.

When I use my legs to lift weight on this machine, I feel that I'm doing it for health.

http://imageshack.us/a/img560/7456/qdfn.jpg

When I use both arms to twist on this machine, I feel that I'm doing it for combat (because I can twist my opponent down to the ground).

http://imageshack.us/a/img198/6186/rotarytorso.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some people may think that

weight training = combat training

that's what I don't understand. I have always associated "weight training" and "long distance running" as "health maintenance" and not combat related.

When I use my legs to lift weight on this machine, I feel that I'm doing or health.

http://imageshack.us/a/img560/7456/qdfn.jpg

When I use both my arms to twist on this machine, I feel that I'm doing combat.

http://imageshack.us/a/img198/6186/rotarytorso.jpg

Strength training has NOTHING to do with combat/fighting training.
ZERO.

[Golden Arms]

Both are correct.
See, weight training is uni formally quantifiable.
Benching 300lbs for 5 reps is benching 300 lbs for 5 reps.
Now, we can argue about form, but the point is to lift 300lbs off your chest and hold it there.
3 guys can throw 500 kicks into a bag and all 3 will throw then with different intensities and speed.

See what I am saying?

A guy saying he can do bag work for 30 min non-stop means nothing because it isn't quantifiable ( intensity and force not being able to be "counted").
A guy saying he can deadlift 400LBS means something.

Just for the record. I can deadlift over 400lb (or at least I could as of my last attempt). I didn't find a huge crossover between before I started deadlifting and after I made it up to that point. It made it somewhat easier to brute force my way out of some difficult clinch and takedown scenarios but I felt I got much more bang for my buck just spending that time in heavy san shou training with semi and non compliant partners. Same goes for squats, bench press, etc.

What I have gotten a lot out of are plyometrics (dropping and catching yourself with your hands, sprawls, frog jumps, heavy bag work, and any other sort of explosive negative).

I am not saying that lifting doesnt help, I am sure it did somewhat, but I think it would help a person that was not doing much athletically a whole lot more than it does someone that spends a lot of time running, wrestling, shadowboxing, and working with partners.

YMMV I suppose.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Just for the record. I can deadlift over 400lb (or at least I could as of my last attempt). I didn't find a huge crossover between before I started deadlifting and after I made it up to that point. It made it somewhat easier to brute force my way out of some difficult clinch and takedown scenarios but I felt I got much more bang for my buck just spending that time in heavy san shou training with semi and non compliant partners. Same goes for squats, bench press, etc.

What I have gotten a lot out of are plyometrics (dropping and catching yourself with your hands, sprawls, frog jumps, heavy bag work, and any other sort of explosive negative).

I am not saying that lifting doesnt help, I am sure it did somewhat, but I think it would help a person that was not doing much athletically a whole lot more than it does someone that spends a lot of time running, wrestling, shadowboxing, and working with partners.

YMMV I suppose.

Actions are task specific and MA as "sport specific" actions.
You will always get the most carryover when performing something that is as direct as possible to the task.
In terms of fighting, whatever you do that is the most direct-related to fighting will be what gives you the most carry over.
ST has never been about that, the reason it has been a part of MA since the dawn of time is because:
Strong bodies make strong fighters = better chance for survival.

All MA have always included GENERAL strength training and specific.
Just like the include general endurance (running) and specific endurance (sparring/bag work).

I don't ever recall my ability to DL making me a better fighter, BUT I do like the fact that I can lift and carry really heavy stuff and NOT hurt myself.

[YouKnowWho]

Strength training has NOTHING to do with combat/fighting training.
ZERO.
It can be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmK-Ryk88wE&feature=youtu.be

That's the beauty of the TCMA training - to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

[Frost]

It can be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmK-Ryk88wE&feature=youtu.be

That's the beauty of the TCMA training - to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

and so the circular debate goes on, you ask this question every few months, people post why they feel you are wrong and you post why you feel you are correct...and then the same thread comes along again with the same arguments why not just accept it is what it is and move on

[sanjuro_ronin]

It can be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmK-Ryk88wE&feature=youtu.be

That's the beauty of the TCMA training - to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

Unless he is training to fight a wheel barrow, how is that combat training?
Anymore than this:
http://health.lilithezine.com/images/Parkour-04.gif

[mickey]

Greetings,

sanjuro ronin,

There is that gray area where strength training and martial training overlap. It does not happen very often, but it does happen. Let's look at that twisting apparatus that YKW was talking about. Yes, it is a strength training device. If, while doing it, YKW's mindset is martial conditioning for a certain type of throw, it is no longer simply strength training anymore. While it may appear that way to the observer, it is not being experienced that way by YKW.


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

There is that gray area where strength training and martial training overlap.
Thanks for pointing this out. Maybe my Chinglish, I just can't make this clear.

The Chinese wrestling is in very awkward position. Judo or wrestling don't treat it as one of them. Sometime even TCMA may treat it as "foreign".

I'm always interesting in to "kill 2 birds with 1 stone". When I find it, I like to share it to the others. Even if it may be just one person who can pick up this idea of "kill 2 birds with 1 stone", my efford of "repeating myself" will not be wasted. If any new MA training tools that can be invented from this same idea, everybody will be benefitted.


Unless he is training to fight a wheel barrow, how is that combat training?
That clip doesn't include the footwork. If you use

- left hand to grab on your opponwnt's right upper-arm,
- right hand to grab on his left upper-arm,
- left arm to "push" his right upper-arm,
- right arm to "pull" his left upper-arm,
- right stealing step to spin your body to your right,

you can twist (push and pull) your opponent from a stand up position all the way down to the ground.

[Lucas]

"exotic oriental exercise"

That's what vacations to Thailand are for.

[Frost]

Thanks for pointing this out. Maybe my Chinglish, I just can't make this clear.

The Chinese wrestling is in very awkward position. Judo or wrestling don't treat it as one of them. Sometime even TCMA may treat it as "foreign".

I'm always interesting in to "kill 2 birds with 1 stone". When I find it, I like to share it to the others. Even if it may be just one person who can pick up this idea of "kill 2 birds with 1 stone", my efford of "repeating myself" will not be wasted. If any new MA training tools that can be invented from this same idea, everybody will be benefitted.


That clip doesn't include the footwork. If you use

- left hand to grab on your opponwnt's right upper-arm,
- right hand to grab on his left upper-arm,
- left arm to "push" his right upper-arm,
- right arm to "pull" his left upper-arm,
- right stealing step to spin your body to your right,

you can twist (push and pull) your opponent from a stand up position all the way down to the ground.

why you try to kill. 2 birds. With 1 stone and mix training protocols you normally and up with less than stella results in both.......

[mickey]

Greetings,

Frost,

Let us look at the wrist roller. It can be used for strength development as we all know. But if I use that same session to mentally train grabbing and twisting with that device while still being progressive with strength training modalities, there is no loss in either.

mickey

[YouKnowWho]

why you try to kill. 2 birds. With 1 stone and mix training protocols you normally and up with less than stella results in both.......

The answer to your question is very simple. We don't have training partner 24/7. When we train at home along, we can use special weight equipments to simulate our training partners and get the most benefit out of it.

When I

- do my bench press, I feel guilty because I think I'm just doing it for my "health".
- twist my water container, I don't feel guilty becuse I know I'm training for my "combat".

I'm not a "training TCMA for health" person. I do value "combat development" to have much higher priority than my "health maintence". The day that I can replace my long distance running with my zigzag footwork training,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY

the day that I'll have no more "guilty" feeling. I haven't tried to use that footwork to finish 4 miles yet.

[-N-]

The day that I can replace my long distance running with my zigzag footwork training,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY

I'll have no more "guilty" feeling. I haven't tried to use that footwork to finish 4 miles yet.

For combat usage, you are better off training that footwork as a windsprint instead of for distance.

Distance training has its benefits in building aerobic base, but quick burst of speed and ability to recover is more applicable to combat.

[YouKnowWho]

For combat usage, you are better off training that footwork as a windsprint instead of for distance.

Distance training has its benefits in building aerobic base, but quick burst of speed and ability to recover is more applicable to combat.

Agree! I just don't have enough self-motivation to repeat my hip throw 1000 times none stop in order to make my heart to beat fast. So far, long distance runnng is the only way that work for my aerobic.

If I can find any combat training that can be used to replace my distance running, I will.

[PalmStriker]

No need to disregard any of it. How about this question:

What is going to give me the most bang for my buck for the time invested?

If you train 3 hours a day the answer to this question may be very different than if you have 1 hour every other day to train.

For instance, a person that spends 1.5 hours per workout wrestling with people may need much less strength training than the person that does not wrestle at all. A person that does manual labor for a job will have very different attributes from one that works on a computer. How you train your art dictates what you need to supplement your training with. Agree with those factors. :)

[Frost]

The answer to your question is very simple. We don't have training partner 24/7. When we train at home along, we can use special weight equipments to simulate our training partners and get the most benefit out of it.

When I

- do my bench press, I feel guilty because I think I'm just doing it for my "health".
- twist my water container, I don't feel guilty becuse I know I'm training for my "combat".

I'm not a "training TCMA for health" person. I do value "combat development" to have much higher priority than my "health maintence". The day that I can replace my long distance running with my zigzag footwork training,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY

the day that I'll have no more "guilty" feeling. I haven't tried to use that footwork to finish 4 miles yet.

there is only 1 way to simulate actual combat: that is with a partner and actually doing the sport/art, everything else is just general training, unless you are being attacked by a water container it is not the same as actual combat, it does not move as your opponent does, it does not react as he does it does not make you respond as you would in a fight

basic weight training allows you to work the muscles used in combat and overload them to make them stronger, you then do the actual art/sport to make that general strength more sports specific

[Frost]

Greetings,

Frost,

Let us look at the wrist roller. It can be used for strength development as we all know. But if I use that same session to mentally train grabbing and twisting with that device while still being progressive with strength training modalities, there is no loss in either.

mickey

that example is an isolated movement training a specific muscle, using the same method just a different intent
we are talking about replacing general compound movements: squat bench deadlift with sports like movements, pulley throws, water container moving (apparently)

so your example doesnt really fit

[mickey]

Greetings,

There were some absolute statements made about strength training (there was no differentiation between compound and isolated) and martial training in this thread, as if there were two distinct areas of focus. My example proves otherwise. It is the mental objective of the practitioner that blows that argument to hell and this has already been politely stated.


mickey

[Frost]

Greetings,

There were some absolute statements made about strength training (there was no differentiation between compound and isolated) and martial training in this thread, as if there were two distinct areas of focus. My example proves otherwise. It is the mental objective of the practitioner that blows that argument to hell and this has already been politely stated.


mickey

actually to quote the first response to this thread
"Normal, ie" general strength training, strengthens to WHOLE of your body as a unit, which in short HELPS with specific strength training.[/QUOTE]"


and on the second page

"A CLassical STRENGTH one tends to focus on heavy COMPOUND moves that work the whole of the body AND the CNS. "

if you dont think we are talking about compound and not isolated lifts...when several posters also mentioned the deadlift (a compound lift) then well lord
knows what you are reading

and your point still doesnt stand because its the same exercise with a different mental exercise, its not like the example YKW used of benching and moving a water container is it......

[mickey]

Hello Frost,

I am responding to this statement made by sanjuro ronin:

"Strength training has NOTHING to do with combat/fighting training.
ZERO."

It was in response to a statement made by YKW with regard to his mindset with a particular exercise.

It really caught my attention because things are not that black and white. My posts addressed that.

mickey

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hello Frost,

I am responding to this statement made by sanjuro ronin:

"Strength training has NOTHING to do with combat/fighting training.
ZERO."

It was in response to a statement made by YKW with regard to his mindset with a particular exercise.

It really caught my attention because things are not that black and white. My posts addressed that.

mickey

I agree that things aren't so black and white BUT the reality is that ST has nothing to do with combat training, if it did then the strongest would be the best fighters WITHOUT having to fight.

NOTHING build overall strength better than compound moves with progressive resistance, examples being power lifting and Olympic lifting and strong man competitions where the strongest people in the world are.
This has been proven over and over that is truly a fact that is undisputed.

Yet none of that directly translated to fighting prowess.

The guy with the biggest numbers on the bench press does NOT have much punching power at all UNLESS He is trained to, well, punch.

I know marathon runners and triathletes that gas out in minutes in the ring or on the mat.

NO conditioning training = fighting prowess UNLESS it is directly done while "fighting".

[Frost]

Hello Frost,

I am responding to this statement made by sanjuro ronin:

"Strength training has NOTHING to do with combat/fighting training.
ZERO."

It was in response to a statement made by YKW with regard to his mindset with a particular exercise.

It really caught my attention because things are not that black and white. My posts addressed that.

mickey

my bad i thought you had responded to me
strength is an attribute, just as conditioning is, neither makes you a fighter directly but both can make a trained fighter a better fighter

[sanjuro_ronin]

my bad i thought you had responded to me
strength is an attribute, just as conditioning is, neither makes you a fighter directly but both can make a trained fighter a better fighter

Quite so.
No training other than fighting ( and the associate drills that go with it) are directly combat oriented.
You can train to have the fastest hands ever and that won't mean much if you don't know how to use them in a fight.

[YouKnowWho]

The "缸(Gang) rotation" is an ancient equipment training method to develop "擰(Ning) - Wheeling". It helps you to "integrate your waist, legs, and arms motion".

http://imageshack.us/a/img850/6782/xl4p.jpg

This is the "foot sweep" equipment training method. It also has to do with "weight".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taS3wC_sv6Q

In SC, you 1st decide what skill that you want to train. You then find the right equipment to train for.

[MightyB]

That's what vacations to Thailand are for.

One night in Bangkok (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPMkzIwbcKs)and the world's your oyster
The bars are temples but the pearls ain't free

You'll find a god in every golden cloister
And if you're lucky then the god's a she
I can feel an angel sliding up to me

[MightyB]

In SC, you 1st decide what skill that you want to train. You then find the right equipment to train for.

This is the motto for modern athletic trainers. You tell them your sport, and they tailor the exercises to it all with the purpose of making you faster, stronger and more agile for your sport.

[MightyB]

You could always

"Stand Lower!

Move Faster!

More Hip!!!"

[-N-]

You could always

"Stand Lower!

Move Faster!

More Hip!!!"

Stop giving away all the kung fu secrets :)

Our version is:

- Bend your knees!

- Turn your waist!

- Relax!

[YouKnowWho]

Try to throw a punch without using your arm will be a good training.

[Lucas]

I was raised on:

more faster!

more harder!

more power!

[-N-]

Try to throw a punch without using your arm will be a good training.

If you train shoulder/hip/body strike against the heavy bag, it will help your actual punches.

[Kellen Bassette]

I was raised on:

more faster!

more harder!

more power!

Harder! Faster! More qi!

[bawang]

Harder! Faster! More qi!

it only works if ur a HANDSOME MONK and marry bald Korean lesbian

[Kellen Bassette]

it only works if ur a HANDSOME MONK and marry bald Korean lesbian

I think his is "More Chi! Train Harder!" (Similar, yes...) although you have to admit "the most handsome shifu on earth" does have a certain ring to it...:cool:

[bawang]

I think his is "More Chi! Train Harder!" (Similar, yes...) although you have to admit "the most handsome shifu on earth" does have a certain ring to it...:cool:

his crazy monkey seizure sanda is very powerful

[Kellen Bassette]

his crazy monkey seizure sanda is very powerful

I have not seen his sanda...you arouse my curiosity....

[pazman]

I have not seen his sanda...

Because he doesn't have any.

[bawang]

I have not seen his sanda...you arouse my curiosity....

do u have a cactus stuck to ur face, every tv interview he shows his crazy monkey sanda

[wenshu]

his crazy monkey seizure sanda is very powerful
http://i.imgur.com/dYaqtAA.gif

[Kellen Bassette]

do u have a cactus stuck to ur face, every tv interview he shows his crazy monkey sanda

I just checked, no cactus stuck to my face....may be because I don't watch as many tv interviews as you. That's why I'm here, to stay informed.

Oh and the civil and enlightening conversation of course. :cool:

[Kellen Bassette]

http://i.imgur.com/dYaqtAA.gif

So this is the sanda I hear tell of....

[pazman]

I like the guy behind Yan Ming, bravely defending the Temple with his Opera Spear.

[Kellen Bassette]

I like the guy behind Yan Ming, bravely defending the Temple with his Opera Spear.

You've successfully brought us back on topic....very sneaky...