Timing

[WC1277]

Let's talk about timing. The most undiscussed topic on this forum and one of the most untrained attributes of many WC practitioners.

Before we can even discuss it, let's first define the different types. While there are different terminologies it can be broken down into these four categories with regards to the WC system(albeit the timing is true across all systems in different applications).

--------------
Regular Timing: normal 1 beat movement such as each half of the chi sao roll or a basic "block" of your opponents attack. If a line opens, you go in. When you go in on an open line it is also "regular timing"

Create Timing: 1-2 beat movement where you attack by attempting to open or jam a line such as a pak punch, step punch, lop punch, etc. You are "creating" a reference point in time that the opponent can use. fyi - someone with really good timing can minimize the length of time between the 1-2(one reason body unity is so important)

Break Timing: 1 1/2 beat movement. The space in between the 1-2 of "create timing". The whole 'you move first but I get there quicker' adage. fyi - It's a 1/2 beat against "regular timing".

Double/delayed Timing: Using any two of the above timings together. The epitome of someone skilled with timing can use it freely and switch between this and any singular timing at will. fyi - It is impossible to go beyond 3 timing movements without your timing restarting. Remember that, it's important.
--------------

So now that we have that out of the way, and hopefully everyone understands, I'm interested in what people are doing to even cultivate these timings. I suffice to say that, while all the attributes are important and related to timing, there are two main training areas that develop it more than others. Coordination of the hands with body and recovery drills. I offer two examples:

1 - COORDINATION: I am willing to bet that the majority of practitioners of WC, let alone this forum, can not even do this simple drill without having to slow down and think about it, let alone have it feel natural.

With switching your punching side back and forth and turning(just as you do in chum kiu) do this sequence:

Lop punch - Pak punch - Pak punch - Lop punch - Pak punch - Lop punch - Lop punch - Pak punch

To simplify:
Lop - Pak - Pak - Lop - Pak - Lop - Lop - Pak

If you can do this smoothly and at a relatively fast speed without thinking about it, congratulations, you probably have a decent coordination of your WC body. If not, then you need to work on it. Drills like this will help you and you can use any combination you'd like but once you pick one, stick to it till you can do it smoothly. And always switch between your punching sides w/ turning.

2 - RECOVERY: An excellent drill to practice timing in application is relatively simple and like all good drills can be modified to whomever's choosing.

- Have a partner attack you

- Block the first attack

- Let the second attack come in

- Block the third attack from the vulnerable position you are now in. You just did true "regular timing". Do this over and over until you're solid. Most people really can't do "regular timing" well.

Now try it with, instead of blocking, try to deal with the third attack with "break timing" as in, intercept with a return attack. Don't have your partner block. Do this over and over again till you feel comfortable.

Now do the "break timing" again but now have your partner try to block your attack. Since you know he will, this will allow you to work on your "Double/delayed timing". You have to switch to "create timing" if he's successful in his block or "regular timing" if he doesn't and the line is open.

I highly recommend this drill. What this develops over time is actual dynamic timing in relation to an opponent in motion.

--------

Any thoughts? Any good drills you have that develops these timings?

[Vajramusti]

Let's talk about timing. The most undiscussed topic on this forum and one of the most untrained attributes of many WC practitioners.

Before we can even discuss it, let's first define the different types. While there are different terminologies it can be broken down into these four categories with regards to the WC system(albeit the timing is true across all systems in different applications).

--------------
Regular Timing: normal 1 beat movement such as each half of the chi sao roll or a basic "block" of your opponents attack. If a line opens, you go in. When you go in on an open line it is also "regular timing"

Create Timing: 1-2 beat movement where you attack by attempting to open or jam a line such as a pak punch, step punch, lop punch, etc. You are "creating" a reference point in time that the opponent can use. fyi - someone with really good timing can minimize the length of time between the 1-2(one reason body unity is so important)

Break Timing: 1 1/2 beat movement. The space in between the 1-2 of "create timing". The whole 'you move first but I get there quicker' adage. fyi - It's a 1/2 beat against "regular timing".

Double/delayed Timing: Using any two of the above timings together. The epitome of someone skilled with timing can use it freely and switch between this and any singular timing at will. fyi - It is impossible to go beyond 3 timing movements without your timing restarting. Remember that, it's important.
--------------

So now that we have that out of the way, and hopefully everyone understands, I'm interested in what people are doing to even cultivate these timings. I suffice to say that, while all the attributes are important and related to timing, there are two main training areas that develop it more than others. Coordination of the hands with body and recovery drills. I offer two examples:

1 - COORDINATION: I am willing to bet that the majority of practitioners of WC, let alone this forum, can not even do this simple drill without having to slow down and think about it, let alone have it feel natural.

With switching your punching side back and forth and turning(just as you do in chum kiu) do this sequence:

Lop punch - Pak punch - Pak punch - Lop punch - Pak punch - Lop punch - Lop punch - Pak punch

To simplify:
Lop - Pak - Pak - Lop - Pak - Lop - Lop - Pak

If you can do this smoothly and at a relatively fast speed without thinking about it, congratulations, you probably have a decent coordination of your WC body. If not, then you need to work on it. Drills like this will help you and you can use any combination you'd like but once you pick one, stick to it till you can do it smoothly. And always switch between your punching sides w/ turning.

2 - RECOVERY: An excellent drill to practice timing in application is relatively simple and like all good drills can be modified to whomever's choosing.

- Have a partner attack you

- Block the first attack

- Let the second attack come in

- Block the third attack from the vulnerable position you are now in. You just did true "regular timing". Do this over and over until you're solid. Most people really can't do "regular timing" well.

Now try it with, instead of blocking, try to deal with the third attack with "break timing" as in, intercept with a return attack. Don't have your partner block. Do this over and over again till you feel comfortable.

Now do the "break timing" again but now have your partner try to block your attack. Since you know he will, this will allow you to work on your "Double/delayed timing". You have to switch to "create timing" if he's successful in his block or "regular timing" if he doesn't and the line is open.

I highly recommend this drill. What this develops over time is actual dynamic timing in relation to an opponent in motion.

--------

Any thoughts? Any good drills you have that develops these timings?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Serious discussion is not likely on this forum. The verbal descriptions- while good- can easily go past people's attention.
I could be wrong.

[Grumblegeezer]

We do this kind of timing drills more often in the Escrima I practice than in the VT. Here's why: The Escrima is often a more subjective martial art. Like boxing, there is less "sticking", less use of "Lat sau jik chung" and therefore more use of changing/breaking timing to find an opening.

In WC/VT as I was taught, you spring forward. Either you hit your target or you meet opposition/interference. If you meet opposition, you use your opponent's force to make your defense, adapt, flow, and continue with your attack. It is primarily an objective martial art. You don't guess (subjectively) when and how to defend or attack. Or what timing to use. Your opponent (objectively) does that for you. ...ideally, at least.

That said, in the VT class we do some drills where we practice changing our timing. I tend to suck at them. One of my training partners is a skilled drummer. He loves that stuff. Wish I could get an audio recording of him punching on focus gloves. He can make it sound like a drum solo!

[guy b.]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Serious discussion is not likely on this forum. The verbal descriptions- while good- can easily go past people's attention.
I could be wrong.

Why so cynical? I thought they were decent descriptions. Maybe it is just that nobody is interested in timing..why not wait and see?

[WC1277]

We do this kind of timing drills more often in the Escrima I practice than in the VT. Here's why: The Escrima is often a more subjective martial art. Like boxing, there is less "sticking", less use of "Lat sau jik chung" and therefore more use of changing/breaking timing to find an opening.

In WC/VT as I was taught, you spring forward. Either you hit your target or you meet opposition/interference. If you meet opposition, you use your opponent's force to make your defense, adapt, flow, and continue with your attack. It is primarily an objective martial art. You don't guess (subjectively) when and how to defend or attack. Or what timing to use. Your opponent (objectively) does that for you. ...ideally, at least.

That said, in the VT class we do some drills where we practice changing our timing. I tend to suck at them. One of my training partners is a skilled drummer. He loves that stuff. Wish I could get an audio recording of him punching on focus gloves. He can make it sound like a drum solo!

Interesting points and I'm sure there's many here who view it that way. For us, since our entire system is pretty much for developing fighting 'attributes', timing is a very important part. IMO the whole LSJC idea is the companion of good timing and vice versa. For instance, even though all WC guys train to block in one form or another, you're most likely not really going to be doing that in a real fight. Your LSJC is going to happen, if at all, from some kind of clash, whether from you attacking or from your opponent. So say you respond in classic WC fashion and ONLY readjust to the force and try to attack. You will fail. I see it time and time again. Why did you fail? Because the timing got switched up on you. Watch any WC video you find impressive and count the timing of the guy getting dominated. I guarantee you he's doing a repetative "singular timing" while the dominator is switching it up between "double and regular timing". I said it in an earlier post but watch any clip of PB dominating his students. They are almost always trying to use "create timing" and desparately attempting to "break timing". There's no good "regular timing" and definitely no "double" going on and not surprisingly those are the main two "timings" he's using against them. Imagine a wooden dummy moving around, that's how easy it is for him...

My two cents...

Thanks for contributing btw, it appears many don't want to talk about this subject.

[Bayesian]

Great topic!

I don't totally understand the description of "Double/Delayed Timing" yet.

A couple of questions to make sure I understand your descriptions better:

If I pak and punch at the same time, you would classify that as "Create Timing", is that right?

For the second drill, would you give an example with some specific attacks named? I was not sure how to interpret what happens with "second attack" or "third attack". My imagination has the "second attack" laying me out.

Are you developing these ideas from fencing tempo? Have you seen some parallel ideas in other disciplines?

Also, by "repetitive singular timing" in your last post, do you mean "Regular Timing"?

Thanks!

[guy b.]

Watch any WC video you find impressive and count the timing of the guy getting dominated. I guarantee you he's doing a repetative "singular timing" while the dominator is switching it up between "double and regular timing"

This is a good point and very noticeable in any wing chun "guru" type video clips. All of these guys chuck in varied timing while the student comes straight forward with predictable and usually late strikes. One of the worst things about wing chun training in general is this unrealistic and predictable use of shape and timing in attacks. If nothing else it teaches bad attacking that is likely to get you knocked out.

Interestingly if you have a look at Kev's recent seminar clip I think there is a bit of "misunderstanding" between him and Bayer on this issue because Kev is all tense and not throwing the usual seminar strikes. In the end PB bounces him across the room because not cooperating.

[WC1277]

Great topic!

I don't totally understand the description of "Double/Delayed Timing" yet.

The combination of any of the other timings together. "Regular timing" has to come second to be considered part of "double timing".



A couple of questions to make sure I understand your descriptions better:

If I pak and punch at the same time, you would classify that as "Create Timing", is that right?

Yes, if you're attempting to "open" a line you're "creating" a time in space and even if you think it's one motion, it's actually a 1-2 beat. The better your coordination is, the tighter you can make that beat



For the second drill, would you give an example with some specific attacks named? I was not sure how to interpret what happens with "second attack" or "third attack". My imagination has the "second attack" laying me out.

Doesn't matter, your partner just attacks you however he wants. btw it's a drill, he shouldn't be 'laying you out'



Are you developing these ideas from fencing tempo? Have you seen some parallel ideas in other disciplines?

These ideas and my understanding are on the backs of giants.



Also, by "repetitive singular timing" in your last post, do you mean "Regular Timing"?

Thanks!

I mean a reptitive use of one of the first three "timings"

[WC1277]

This is a good point and very noticeable in any wing chun "guru" type video clips. All of these guys chuck in varied timing while the student comes straight forward with predictable and usually late strikes. One of the worst things about wing chun training in general is this unrealistic and predictable use of shape and timing in attacks. If nothing else it teaches bad attacking that is likely to get you knocked out.

Interestingly if you have a look at Kev's recent seminar clip I think there is a bit of "misunderstanding" between him and Bayer on this issue because Kev is all tense and not throwing the usual seminar strikes. In the end PB bounces him across the room because not cooperating.

Yeah, I noticed that too.

Another great way to see how good your "flow" is, so to speak, is to grab one of the newer students in your school who just learned chi sao but uses a lot of muscle. The bigger the guy the better.

[Bayesian]

Thanks for the clarifications!

What does allowing the second attack to come in do in the drill? Is that where the clock is set for making the subsequent response to the third attack to be Regular Timing?

When you say that Double/Delayed Timing is a "combination of any of the other timings", do you mean combined sequentially or simultaneously?

[WC1277]

Thanks for the clarifications!

What does allowing the second attack to come in do in the drill? Is that where the clock is set for making the subsequent response to the third attack to be Regular Timing?

Yes, it allows it to be a "true" timing response. It also helps you to understand your structural response in a vulnerable position.



When you say that Double/Delayed Timing is a "combination of any of the other timings", do you mean combined sequentially or simultaneously?

Sequentially.....an octopus, however, may be able to do it simultaneously...;)

[Vajramusti]

Thanks for the clarifications!

What does allowing the second attack to come in do in the drill? Is that where the clock is set for making the subsequent response to the third attack to be Regular Timing?

When you say that Double/Delayed Timing is a "combination of any of the other timings", do you mean combined sequentially or simultaneously?
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Near simultaneity-how near depends on skill development.

[Paddington]

[...]
Any thoughts? Any good drills you have that develops these timings?

Thanks for the drills. If I can get my training partners to agree, I'll try to see what they do for my timing. So, I'll get back to you I guess.

[Yoshiyahu]

Great Post..wonderful drills you guys have listed...its good to be able to change up your timing...but more importantly i am more concerned about predicting my opponents timing. I want to control his timing...so if the old charge in guns ablazing doesnt work. I utilize timing inside the clinch or chi sau range to predict when his strike will come...most low skilled guys you can sense their intention by touch by a higher skilled guy not so much!

[Yoshiyahu]

thank you for your opinion very insightful...Maybe the way i explained mines was mis understood...but i am familiar with the different ranges...such as kicking, punching and elbow and knee range...i was basically speaking of timing in the aspect that some opponents attack according to timing...if you can break their flow you break their ability to recover or defend against your attack...



Hello Yoshiyahu. I think you are talking about range; the four ranges being kicking, punching, locking, and grappling. Each one gets progressively closer to the core (Chung Mo) and the closer to core, the more subtle and critical the engagement. The principles do not change, even in the air (flying crane) or on the ground (ground crane). Timing always comes off of the footwork, whether standing, flying, or on the ground; and regardless of fist or locking technique. Experimenting with one technique at these three levels might reveal some hidden, subtle aspect of footwork which leads to timing.

For additional information, I invite you to read a previous discussion I had on this forum regarding the topic of timing and footwork. All the best.

http://martial.securesites.net/forum/showthread.php?t=66293&page=2

[Ali. R]

It is said that timing is: the selecting of the best time or speed for doing something in order to achieve the desired or maximum result.

The key word here is “desired”, based on the fact that it doesn’t make any difference on how fast or slow you may move, and to control someone’s timing is simply based on your opponent’s mind set, preferably within the idea of ‘shock’ or shocking your opponent offensively or defensively, in which there are many ways to accomplish this (shocking).

By shouting in between applications could be a very good approach in shocking your opponent, but if ones skill level is low and while shouting the shock could easily bounce back onto you and break your timing on entry or in defense. Another way is to attack the attack which will take time to master, because you must have good eye sensitivity to be able to jump on your opponent’s intent or simply just from using good ‘mon sao’ attacks. Those are just a few ways, but there are other ways to shock your opponent as well.

If you really want to understand timing and really want to feel what it’s all about from a fundamental standpoint, the best way to approach it is within the ‘phoon sao’ structure and while finding the weakest point within the cycle you will feel and experienced the true definition of this approach, from which you will develop a much higher understanding while developing it within applications.

I hope that this diagram could help those that are truly interested in developing the first step dealing with timing. I will make a clip on the things that I’ve just mention after I’ve been slung through the mud for a while.

http://www.detroitwingchun.com/btiming.png


Take care,

[Ali. R]

left click on the diagram to make it bigger.


Take care,

[k gledhill]

It is said that timing is: the selecting of the best time or speed for doing something in order to achieve the desired or maximum result.

The key word here is “desired”, based on the fact that it doesn’t make any difference on how fast or slow you may move, and to control someone’s timing is simply based on your opponent’s mind set, preferably within the idea of ‘shock’ or shocking your opponent offensively or defensively, in which there are many ways to accomplish this (shocking).

By shouting in between applications could be a very good approach in shocking your opponent, but if ones skill level is low and while shouting the shock could easily bounce back onto you and break your timing on entry or in defense. Another way is to attack the attack which will take time to master, because you must have good eye sensitivity to be able to jump on your opponent’s intent or simply just from using good ‘mon sao’ attacks. Those are just a few ways, but there are other ways to shock your opponent as well.

If you really want to understand timing and really want to feel what it’s all about from a fundamental standpoint, the best way to approach it is within the ‘phoon sao’ structure and while finding the weakest point within the cycle you will feel and experienced the true definition of this approach, from which you will develop a much higher understanding while developing it within applications.

I hope that this diagram could help those that are truly interested in developing the first step dealing with timing. I will make a clip on the things that I’ve just mention after I’ve been slung through the mud for a while.

http://www.detroitwingchun.com/btiming.png


Take care,

Your diag. seems to imply pressure v pressure of arms ?

[Ali. R]

Your diag. seems to imply pressure v pressure of arms ?

I've showed no pressure or implied none whatsoever, only timing through softness when using this approach.

http://www.detroitwingchun.com/btiming.png


Take care,

[k gledhill]

I've showed no pressure or implied none whatsoever, only timing through softness when using this approach.

http://www.detroitwingchun.com/btiming.png


Take care,

Ok just trying to figure out the diag.

[Ali. R]

Ok just trying to figure out the diag.


I’m sorry that you’re reading it wrong. What you are looking at is the right hand -or- side of your ‘phoon sao’ structure (facing, looking forward) and nothing more.

http://www.detroitwingchun.com/btiming.png


Take care,

[Ali. R]

Here’s a clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ubdLyFn1rU) that I’ve made seven years ago dealing with timing in the ‘pak sao’ set, but I’ll make another clip using the chi sao/phoon sao set later on.


Take care,