Sanda/Sanshou

[fa_jing]

My teacher and I were watching a video advertising 1 months sanshou training in China, showed them training with boxing gloves, free-sparring, shuai chiao demonstrations, etc. His response, being that he's not been keeping up with the latest developments in Chinese Martial sport over the last 5 or so years, was something like wow, I thought that was Thai Boxing or Kickboxing or something. I'm like, no, that's Chinese San Shou and it's great, take a look. Now my teacher respects TCMA greatly, but he is a JKD man through and through, so this fit right into his philosophy of how to teach MA. He told me, "you know what happened, they're tired of getting whupped." I imagine that's a fair statement...we all know the failings of the wu-shu-ified CMA. The Ezine article with Master Ma says as much. So Sanshou is saving CMA from a sport perspective, and with traditional and sportive martial arts co-existing, I think it has to help the preservation of the real fighting element of Kung Fu, and the effects will continue to be felt in TCMA. In other words I don't thing TCMA will stray too far away from realistic because of it's association to Sanshou.

[Nexus]

Sanshou is great and anyone who sticks around in a school teaching T'ai Chi with martial application should eventually experience it. This being a generalization, "should."

[MightyB]

Now the next step is for you to compete in one.

[fa_jing]

Well, the sparring at the last tournament I participated in was basically San Shou rules, although the rounds were shortened and no points were given. Also, no one had actually trained in San Shou. I got TKO'd in my second bout. I spoke to a man there (the guy with the video) who said he was opening up a San Shou school in NW Indiana. I still need to improve before I get back in there.

[MightyB]

I still need to improve before I get back in there.

Me too :)

[Mutant]

Well said fa-jing, i agree with your perspective.

So whats the deal with the 1 months san shou training in china? Is it at the Shaolin temple complex? Who is organizing it and how much does it cost? Sounds intense, not that i could actually $wing that right now, but just curious.

[ShaolinTiger00]

Michael Barry and Gary Utterback are proud to host a seminar:

Shawn Liu, 31st generation disciple of the Shaolin Temple and coach of the US national San shou team will be teaching a seminar at Sifu Barry's school in Waldorf Maryland on Sat Oct 12th

3 seminars, Each Seminar will last from 1.5 to 2 hours long. These seminars are offered to anyone that wants to attend.

The first seminar will be on Chan (Zen) meditation.
The second on San Shou
The Third Shaolin Long Staff.

Cost will be $40.00 per seminar. $35.00 per seminar if you take 2 seminars. or $100.00 for all three seminars. These are for advance registration only paid by October 1st NO REFUNDS. If you pay at the door the cost will be $40.00 per seminar without discounts.

For additional information contact

Sifu Gary Utterback
410-257-2365
utterbacksifu@aol.com

[fa_jing]

I don't know the exact deal, or the name of the guy! I'd be interested, but have neither the time nor the money. There was an informational video about it - seems that you would be taught basics, warmups, techniques, training, and sparring - the whole sh'bang. There was shuai Chiao demonstrated on the tape from Sifu Weng, I think.

[OneStrike]

yah san shou is a real way forward for CMA. it has that sense of aliveness and means now some CMA people can actually fight not just have good traditional understanding of CMA (j/k i know some TCMA guys can fight its just takes a lot longer).

i think JKD is interesting with a conept called aliveness in training. this is what san shou has which sets it above other arts in terms of practicality. now if you combine it with the tradition and internal cultivation of TCMA you have the excellent combo.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by fa_jing
I spoke to a man there (the guy with the video) who said he was opening up a San Shou school in NW Indiana.

Now THIS you absolutely MUST get me some info on.

[fa_jing]

It sounds like he's still opening it up. I'll see what I can find out. He was mostly pushing the China trip, but he sounded serious about the school. He had a "police Judo" shirt on. Sev's sigong Sifu Andrew Lee ran the tournament and probably would know something.

Two serious fighters in the tournament were wearing T-shirts that said Chicago Guo Shu. Do you know anything about that?

[Ralek]

Quotes:

"I thought that was thai boxing or kickboxing or something"

"You know what happened they got tired of getting whooped"

End Quotes.

Yes. The chinese people got tired of the fact that kung fu doesn't work. He thought it was thai boxing becuase it is thai boxing. The chinese have accepted the fact that kung fu does not work and have started a sport called san shou that combines Muay thai, western wrestling, and TKD.

And it's not traditinanl kung fu. In fact all the traditional kung fu guys who fight in san shou get KO'd by the muay thai and wrestling techniques. Emin Boztepe sent of team to fight in san shou and they all got KO'd. The same thing happened to William Cheung's students.

I actually admire the chinese people's humility. They lost to all styles for decades. The Chinese accepted this fact and are now evolving. It's kind of like the early UFC's. The strikers were getting raped all the time. They accepted the fact and learned BJJ and wrestling and now they have evolved. Just like the chinese who had ineffective styles accepted the fact and learned Muay thai and wrestling.

I have fought a san shou fighter in a bloody challenge match with no protective gear in a fight and police were called and everything. I fought Shaolin Tiger. Just in case you all wanted to know. Hi Shaolin Tiger!!! Remember when I did the super kick(TM)?

[Ralek]

The adoption of wrestling and Muay thai is a direct admission by the chinese that kung fu is outdated.

You got the modern styles like Muay thai and wrestling. Acutally wrestliung and muay thai are really old but they actually work. I think the problem with kung fu is that you are not allowed to "evolve" it. People think kung fu is a high level so it is sacreligious for them to modify a kung fu thing. So the kung fu just stagnates and never evlovles. Kung fu is not 1000's of years old. Kung fu is only 1 year old becuase the moves havn't evloved. They just invneted a move and then it style never got older becuase it was only developed for 1 year then stagnated for 1000 years. So the chinese are not really evloving kung fu, but throwing out kung fu and adopting other styles completely.

Muay thai, Wrestling, BJJ are always evolving because of the hard sparring. No kata's or forms.

[Siuhoimoon]

Hi everybody,

does anybody have the latest international sanshou rules??

I´d like to take a look at the rules... could you send me via email (.pdf, .doc)?

thanks in advance for the help!!!

[SanShou Guru]

One of my students just fought at the San Shou World cup (got a silver) and the only changes over the old rules were that continuous head shots are allowed and there are no longer shin guards.

Ross may have more info.

[Siuhoimoon]

Guru,

could you send me the sanshou rules that you have?

it doesn´t matter if you have the old ones.... :)

thank you, brother!

[SanShou Guru]

This seems accurate. Got it from Sanshou.com. What you will mostly see in the US is in a ring now so push outs are moot. Also you may or may not have stop time.


(clip)
The rules may vary from tournament to tournament, but these are the basic guidelines:

Scoring


The Fight is Awarded if:
1.The opponent is knocked out or incapacitated.


The Round is Awarded if:
1.The opponent is forced off the platform twice.


Three Points are Awarded if:
1.The opponent is forced off the platform;
2.The opponent is knocked down by backward or forward sweep while competitor remains standing (hands are allowed to touch the ground on the backward sweep but not the forward sweep);
3.The opponent is knocked down by use of a hooked leg kick while competitor remains standing;
4.The opponent is forced to fall by the competitor’s techniques, including the competitors deliberately falling while dodging defensively.


Two Points are Awarded if:
1.The opponent falls while the competitor remains standing;
2.The competitor hits the opponent in the trunk once with the legs;
3.The opponent receives an official warning penalty.


One Point is Awarded if:
1.The competitor hits the opponent once on a valid part with a hand technique;
2.The competitor hits the opponent once on a valid part with a leg technique;
3.The opponent receives a caution once;
4.Both opponents apply methods to force the other down, and both fall, the one who falls last receives the point;
5.Both competitors remain passive for eight seconds, the opponent is ordered to attack by the referee, and the opponent remains passive for another eight seconds.



No Point is Awarded if:
1.Both competitors hit each other on valid parts at the same time successively;
2.Both competitors fall down or off the platform at the same time or successively;
3.The competitor throws the opponent to the ground or off the platform after holding for two seconds or more;
4.One opponent uses a falling technique to attack and does not succeed;
5.One opponent uses a flying offensive technique with a deliberately falling technique, the latter will not score a point;
6.The competitor kicks the lower leg when the opponent defends by raising knee;
7.Unclear techniques are used and no obvious hits to valid parts are scored;
8.The opponent is hit by fists during a double-holding;
9.No one scores when one competitor back or forward sweeps the other competitor’s valid part while under the other’s body (The opponent was forced or fell to the ground under the competitor while trying to kick or sweep the competitor).



Fouls and Penalties


Technical Fouls:
1.Deliberate delay of match after the referee has signaled the start or one competitor starts after five-second delay;
2.Time-out requested when in a disadvantageous position;
3.Shouting and advice-giving from coach or doctor from outside the platform during a fight;
4.Ungentlemanly behavior to the referee/judge or flouting of officiated decisions;
5.Shouting loudly and impolitely during a fight to frighten or disturb one’s opponent;
6.Purposely loosening protective gear or spitting out mouthpiece during a fight.


Personal Fouls:
1.Attacking the opponent before the judge gives the start signal, or after he gives the stop signal;
2.Using prohibited techniques, including:
A.Stikes to the back of the head, neck, throat, or crotch;
B.Elbow or knee strikes;
C.Striking opponent’s head continuously to deliberately injure opponent;
D.Use of excessive force to cause opponents to fall head over heels off the platform;
E.Attacking a fallen opponent (except when an opponent falls deliberately as combat technique).


Penalties:
1.A caution will be given for a technical or personal foul; but a warning will be given for an obvious personal foul;
2.A competitor penalized up to six points will be disqualified and the opponent will be declared the winner;
3.A competitor who intentionally hurts his opponent or commits a serious foul will be disqualified from the fight and if deemed appropriate, from the entire competition;
4.A competitor found guilty of trickery will be disqualified from the entire competition.


Suspension of Match
The referee will suspend a match in any of the following cases:
1.A competitor has fallen down or off the ring;
2.A competitor is penalized for a second foul;
3.A competitor is injured;
4.The competitors are locked for more than two seconds;
5.Both competitors refrain from attacking, or one remains passive for more than eight seconds;
6.The discretion of the referee;
7.The referee or other judges spot danger in a match or in objective factors such as lighting or other malfunctions of facilities.


Weight Classes
1. Under 52 kg = Under 115 lbs
2. 52 kg - 56 kg = 115 lbs - 123 lbs
3. 56 kg - 60 kg = 124 lbs. - 132 lbs.
4. 60 kg - 65 kg = 133 lbs. - 143 lbs.
5. 65 kg - 70 kg = 144 lbs. - 154 lbs.
6. 70 kg - 75 kg = 155 lbs. - 165 lbs.
7. 75 kg - 80 kg = 165 lbs. - 176 lbs.
8. 80 kg - 85 kg = 177 lbs. - 187 lbs.
9. 85 kg - 90 kg = 188 lbs. - 198 lbs.
10. Over 90 kg = Over 199 lbs.

Based on the number of competitors per weight category, an officials conference may be called to combine some of the weight categories.



Equipment/Personnel Supplied by the promoter:
Doctor
Referee and judges
Corner stool, bucket, and water
Boxing gloves
Head Gear
Shirts to fight in
(Competitors are urged to bring their own 14oz gloves and head gear, however these will be subject to inspection)


Supplied by the fighter:
Cornerman/Second
Hand wraps and tape
Towel
Mouthpiece, cup
Vaseline (optional)
Approved blood clotting and inhalant medicine (optional)
Trunks to fight in (no pants, as in international competitions)

[rogue]

3.The opponent is knocked down by use of a hooked leg kick while competitor remains standing; Whats dats mean?:confused:

[SanShou Guru]

Basically a spinning kick.

[Ray Pina]

Are you awarded points for striking the forearms, either in a guard position or striking someone incoming blow from below?

I would think it makes sense since guys are awarded points for kicking the outside of the leg. So why not for striking the arms.

[SanShou Guru]

No points for hitting the arms only the head and trunk. Points for the leg if the person being hit makes no effort to dodge of block the kick.

[Siuhoimoon]

Thanks for all the info, SSGuru!!

[lkfmdc]

three major changes

1. continuous head punching

2. no shin guards

3. no more 3 piont techniques...

[jungle-mania]

Anyone has an opinion on the new international sanshou rules? Does having no shinpads change the game? A punch or a combo is now worth 1 point too.

Also the fact that clean throws are now only 2 points no matter how you throw? Does that make kicks more whippy like TKD, so that we don't get caught? For example, previously if I kick my opponent in the ribs, I score 2 points, he grabs my leg and does a foot sweep, but falls on 1 leg, gets 2 points for an unclean throw, if not he would have gotten 3 points for a clean throw

Now under the new ruling, if you have a clean, its 2 points and if it is unclean, it is 1 point. And if he kicks you first and you throw him clean, no points are given to both. I was running these rules in my head and I would guess throwing kicks would make more sense now than to throw to score enough points and whippy kicks at that, to make sure I don't get caught.

I can agree with th first 2 rules, since it will make people throw higher kicks than just punishing each other's legs and they have to check the health of their shins for future matches. The punching is also a good idea, since it makes people watch their punch techniques rather than slugging. But the throw ruling? Someone please share your opinion.

[Eddie]

Those rules are not that new, the SAWF has been using those for a while now, and it works pretty well. Not having shin guards doesnt change the game at all, it change the training a bit.

You can still kick hard without being cought, but this is not really different to what it used to be. Regardless of the points, you simply DONT want your oponent to grab your legs. A throw after the leg grab should be the leats of your warries.... :eek:

[YangLiCheng]

i've been doing san shou for quite a while

these rules aren't THAT new

[jungle-mania]

OK, I must be living in the stone ages then. Thx for your input, my coach said the same thing too that it doesn't make a difference.

[Mutant]

Like Eddy said, it changes the training a bit, and possibly the strategy of saving your shins early on if fighting multliple fights.
Susie P. would have gone on to fight for Gold medal if her shins we'rent wrecked with contusions from winning up to that point so she had to drop out in 2nd place, of course Silver is still awesome accomplishment. And we temper too, apperently have to temper even more now and save your shins. No shin pads but still required to wear a chest shield, how lame is that though.. :confused:

[Ray Pina]

The thing I don't like about these rules is that they limit the natural flow of a fight.

Someone may not have conditioned their shins so well but maybe they are great at ground and pound. They throw someone only to be seperated, maybe take some heavy shin shots. Throw someone again, seperated again, more shin shots, etc., etc. etc.

A fighter that could have finished someone 20 seconds into the match is now hobling and hoping he's winning on points 2 minutes into a third round.

I understand it's the name of the game. But if the game is to truly evolve into what it wants to be -- a legitamate fighting format -- it has to find a way to compete with the excitement of MMA. As long as you seperate fighters who could still be fighting -- while wearing boxing gloves to boot -- it will always seem less than it could when compared to 4oz gloves and continious fighting.

From what I understand, most of the guys fighting in these circuits train all aspects anyway. Is it a legal issue that prevents San Da from allowing ground-n-pound, etc.?

[ReignOfTerror]

if you want to ground and pound than join a mma gym and fight mma, sans hou sint trying to be anything goes, it only markets itself as the ultimate standup fighting competition. WHy dont you go to thailand and complain to them they dont allow ground fighting?

[jungle-mania]

I got to agree with mutant, I am more for shinpads than chest guard. My shin are beginning to change shape from the constant clashing of shins.

[Vasquez]

Anyone has an opinion on the new international sanshou rules? Does having no shinpads change the game? A punch or a combo is now worth 1 point too.

Also the fact that clean throws are now only 2 points no matter how you throw? Does that make kicks more whippy like TKD, so that we don't get caught? For example, previously if I kick my opponent in the ribs, I score 2 points, he grabs my leg and does a foot sweep, but falls on 1 leg, gets 2 points for an unclean throw, if not he would have gotten 3 points for a clean throw

Now under the new ruling, if you have a clean, its 2 points and if it is unclean, it is 1 point. And if he kicks you first and you throw him clean, no points are given to both. I was running these rules in my head and I would guess throwing kicks would make more sense now than to throw to score enough points and whippy kicks at that, to make sure I don't get caught.

I can agree with th first 2 rules, since it will make people throw higher kicks than just punishing each other's legs and they have to check the health of their shins for future matches. The punching is also a good idea, since it makes people watch their punch techniques rather than slugging. But the throw ruling? Someone please share your opinion.


sounds too complicated to be practical.

[Ray Pina]

if you want to ground and pound than join a mma gym and fight mma, sans hou sint trying to be anything goes, it only markets itself as the ultimate standup fighting competition. WHy dont you go to thailand and complain to them they dont allow ground fighting?


Who's complaining? Someone asked what we though of the rule sets so I gave my opinion.

By while I'm asnwering you, I noticed one of your other posts so let me make one thing clear: I'll fight who I want when I want. I do not need third party feedback, thank you. As a martial artist I'm sure there are more than enough things in your own training/testing to manage.

[ReignOfTerror]

Who's complaining? Someone asked what we though of the rule sets so I gave my opinion.

By while I'm asnwering you, I noticed one of your other posts so let me make one thing clear: I'll fight who I want when I want. I do not need third party feedback, thank you. As a martial artist I'm sure there are more than enough things in your own training/testing to manage.

I was only giving you suggestions on whot o challenge since you are looking to test yourself and shine up your skills before the big kahoona.

[Vasquez]

Who's complaining? Someone asked what we though of the rule sets so I gave my opinion.

By while I'm asnwering you, I noticed one of your other posts so let me make one thing clear: I'll fight who I want when I want. I do not need third party feedback, thank you. As a martial artist I'm sure there are more than enough things in your own training/testing to manage.

LOL @ fight who / when you want. Now that's over simplifying with tough talk. LOL

[xaiolin]

I personally feel that sanshou should incorporate ground fighting. Why is there currently no ground fighting in sanshou and will there ever be? Sanshou is what the old K1 was to mma....

[MasterKiller]

How you gonna groundfight with those 16-oz gloves on? :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

If you want ground fighitng, do MMA.

To complain that San Shou/San Da has no ground fighting is to complain that boxing has no kicks... they are different things, they do different things, they have different uses and purposes

San Da is about the stand up fight. If you do it correctly, where it "ends" the ground fighting "begins"... if not, you are doing it wrong...

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I watched an Uechi Ryu Karate tournament over the weekend. Their sparring rules were interesting - among the notable things was a 3 second ground game. The two competitors were geared up in basic protective gear, and fought continuously until someone was either thrown onto the ground or out of the ring. On the ground, both opponents had 3 seconds within which to execute a clear submission or definitive strike. After 3 seconds, both competitors were reset by the ref.

CSP

[wind draft]

i was gonna say the same thing. if you want ground game in san shou, why don't you do mix martial art? duh!

[lkfmdc]

Hate to say it, no, actually, I have no problem saying it, but 3 seconds on the ground is meaningless

It is people trying to feel like they are doing some ground fighting when clearly they aren't :confused:

[Fu-Pow]

The strategy of most, if not all, traditional CMAs is to stay on your feet....with good reason which I won't go into here. To include groundfighting in a CMA Combat Sport is to get ****her away from the concept of CMA.

In fact, to include contact between opponents for more than a few moments is getting ****her away from the central underlying concept behind CMA, which is that you can use greater skill (Jin) against an opponent with greater strength (Li.)

When you allow two opponents to contact for more than a few seconds (eg in ground fighting) then more often than not it turns into a "wrestling" match where strength is used against strength, force against force. It is no longer a test of skill but a test of strength.

Hence, the rule in San Shou that you only have 3 seconds to execute a throw once you clinch helps preserve the essential qualities of CMA.

[MasterKiller]

When you allow two opponents to contact for more than a few seconds (eg in ground fighting) then more often than not it turns into a "wrestling" match where strength is used against strength, force against force. It is no longer a test of skill but a test of strength. .

I agree San Shou should be stand-up only to maintain it's Chinese flavor.

But the concept behind Wrestling/Grappling (let's call it BJJ) is that you can use greater skill to overcome someone of greater strength by securing a more dominant position. At 165 lbs, I can often tap 205 lb guys at my same experience level.

Sure, some people muscle through it, but the same can be said for stand up.

Saying grappling is all about strength underscores your lack of ground fighting experience.

[LeeCasebolt]

The strategy of most, if not all, traditional CMAs is to stay on your feet....with good reason which I won't go into here. To include groundfighting in a CMA Combat Sport is to get ****her away from the concept of CMA.

In fact, to include contact between opponents for more than a few moments is getting ****her away from the central underlying concept behind CMA, which is that you can use greater skill (Jin) against an opponent with greater strength (Li.)

When you allow two opponents to contact for more than a few seconds (eg in ground fighting) then more often than not it turns into a "wrestling" match where strength is used against strength, force against force. It is no longer a test of skill but a test of strength.

Hence, the rule in San Shou that you only have 3 seconds to execute a throw once you clinch helps preserve the essential qualities of CMA.


Wouldn't it have been quicker and easier to type "I don't know anything about wrestling"?

[Face2Fist]

hey ross

i have a question, since the thread its about san shou. why not ask it here?

i seen stage fighting san shou and once you get pushed off the stage, you lose the match, why are those rules set up like that?

just curious

[lkfmdc]

The Lei Tai stage comes from the "old days" and actualy no rules challenges. In one sense, it was "if you can't keep me from throwing you off this stage, what good are you as a fighter?"... more importantly, those old stages were pretty high off the ground and getting kicked, pushed or thrown off them meant serious injury

Think of it another way, say MMA, do you want to be run backward until you hit a wall or the side of the cage? The stage teaches good footwork and "ring control", now a ring or cage can do that also, but it wasn't a horrible idea in that sense, just an insurance, spectator and logistics nightmare as a sporting event

[Ray Pina]

I think, if it's honest with itself, eventually it will simply be absorbed into MMA.

I know it is often said that the Chinese didn't fight on the ground. But I can't help but think that if two men were engaged in mortal combat and one went down the other would capitalize on that and cut him with a blade, begin kicking him .... do something to take advantage of his position.

But let's say they didn't fight on the ground. People today fight on the ground. If you're going to compete to see how good of a fighter you are you are doing yourself an injustice to stop the fight once it goes down.

MMA is becoming very popular. How can a sport that fights with gear and many rules -- including no ground -- compete with one with practically no gear and no rules?

I believe this is why Cung Le is now going to MMA; to prove something to himself and to others. I also think this is why he has changed his training .... because it is less like sport than a fight to save your face and neck.

[Face2Fist]

The Lei Tai stage comes from the "old days" and actualy no rules challenges. In one sense, it was "if you can't keep me from throwing you off this stage, what good are you as a fighter?"... more importantly, those old stages were pretty high off the ground and getting kicked, pushed or thrown off them meant serious injury

Think of it another way, say MMA, do you want to be run backward until you hit a wall or the side of the cage? The stage teaches good footwork and "ring control", now a ring or cage can do that also, but it wasn't a horrible idea in that sense, just an insurance, spectator and logistics nightmare as a sporting event


that explains that lei tai. but the scoring is confusing as hell, you get pushed off twice you lose the match. that i dont get.

but i do understand the danger factor, falling from a 4 ft high ring can cause serious injury.

[Xiao3 Meng4]

I've never heard of losing a match by being ejected from the ring. I've heard of losing a round through ejection, though.

csp

[lkfmdc]

One of Ray's points is something I've always said and agree with, ie that TODAY, in THIS COUNTRY, people ground fight. We have high school wrestlers and now we have BJJ and the UFC...

Who cares how people fought in China 1000 years ago if we're talking about functional fighting/self defense. A hundred years ago in Europe, self defense was learning to use your sword for personal duels of honor...

Today, the emphasis in ground fighting is on positional control and submission, which most CMA lacks. Like most things, we will see cycles, and what CMA ground fighting has, ie kicks from the floor, sweeps, and ways to get back on the feet, that will become more important and CMA can contribute to the "process".

What I will disagree with is the idea that San Da will be absorbed. Or the idea that MMA will become more popular

Popular as spectator entertainment, yes, but as participant sport, NO...

Which has more active particpants, pro boxing or amateur boxing?

IN the world of amateur boxing, what is the fastest growing segment? Ever heard of "white collar" boxing?

Reality is, people can see themselves wearing head gear and shin pads and doing San Da... most can not see themselves fighting no gear with elbows to the head on the ground..

As we speak, MMA is shooting inself in the foot, trying to kill off amateur competition.... Instead of seeing how the VERY SKILLED fighters in Japan got that way, and the public got to love a sport, they are doing the opposite. Kind of sad really...

And people wonder why the UFC has such a shallow talent pool!

[Sifu Darkfist]

This is a sport with rules for those that wish to participate.
Why not use a football for a hockey game?

Better yet lets take a baseball bat in the boxing ring.

My guys are strong and big and skilled enough to do mma but they want to be forced to go the length to take that beating and still come out on top as a well trained athlete. At the end of the day its all just a bunch of different sports that have different rules. choose one and play the game. Or make up your own, my hats off to you.

[Rockwood]

I am all for amateur, participatory sports. Screw pro sports, lets use all that money and energy to get people involved and participating!

About Lei Tai, I always gotta chime in. Lei Tai is schweet!!! Ropes are lame and lead to increased injury. If you go out of the ring, or off the stage, it's over, you lose. That's a fair fight for everybody, not an endurance contest or brain damaging punch out. It requires a lot more skill and you can't use the ropes as a way to escape or take advantage. I just think San Shou with Lei Tai is the most fun as a spectator, and although I've never competed in it, I like the rules when I'm messing around with friends.

All these ropes and cages and stuff make it too boring, keep it fast paced and fun, who needs ropes?

-Jess

[lkfmdc]

although I've never competed in it,



EXACTLY, and funny how people who love the Lei Tai are those who never had to deal with it.... :rolleyes:

[Rockwood]

Well shoot I don't wanna fall off the platform!! But I like the idea of no ropes and a delineated space, it doesn't have to be up high. I can fully understand if people don't want to use the stage, it would be scary as hell!

-JEss

[xaiolin]

im just saying that i think sanshou/sanda would be a lot better if it incorporated shiao chiao ground fighting.... lets be realistic, fights do end up on the ground. i do understand the concept of sanshou and its rules (ie, fight resets after someone is thrown on the ground); but it is probably time for sanshou/sanda to evolve. I feel that by incorporating shiao chiao, sanshou/sanda would be a big competitor for the major mma organizations.... not that this would be the main purpose (competition), but kung fu would be promoted as being greater than bjj, muay thai, and boxing.

[Wong Fei Hong]

just my 2 cents , like someone said , why should one complain about lack of kicks in boxing, same with saying why isnt there ground fighting in san shou.
Having said that, when i was talking with my teacher, he doesnt recognise san shou as free fighting to him, the sport san shou, as a term it makes sense to him, but as a sport he deems it to be something thats made up recently i think 91 if im not mistaken. Which doesnt actually have to be fought on a lei tai. It could be fought on a mat or in a ring

Whereas when he talks about sanda which is what he calls free fighting , he would deem ground fighting, and mixing various styles together fine.

[xaiolin]

just my 2 cents , like someone said , why should one complain about lack of kicks in boxing, same with saying why isnt there ground fighting in san shou.
Having said that, when i was talking with my teacher, he doesnt recognise san shou as free fighting to him, the sport san shou, as a term it makes sense to him, but as a sport he deems it to be something thats made up recently i think 91 if im not mistaken. Which doesnt actually have to be fought on a lei tai. It could be fought on a mat or in a ring

Whereas when he talks about sanda which is what he calls free fighting , he would deem ground fighting, and mixing various styles together fine.


are you saying that sanda incorporates ground fighting?

[lkfmdc]

but it is probably time for sanshou/sanda to evolve.



1. Why do you think that including groudn fighting in the competition "evolves" it?

2. Who are you to say such things?

LMFAO if you think that San Da is some bandwagon for Kung Fu people to be "bigger" than MMA..

San Da is what it is, whether you like it, whether you understand what it is (which you apparenlty do not)

It doesn't need to "evolve"... it is drawing many MMA people precisely because it is what it is. IE it makes them better at their stand up. Turn it into MMA and it is what they are already doing. And it would rapidly DE-generate or DE-volve...

Sadly, I hate to be rude, but let me be blunt, people who are not active in the fight world, aren't training to fight, don't know what is going on... you have "ideas" but your "ideas" are not connected to any reality...

[Wong Fei Hong]

more what im saying is sanda is free fighting so people who do shuai jiao could compete against people who do tai chi, its not something with a set of rules like san shou which is a sport.

But nowadays when people say sanda it is used to refer to the sport of san shou

So really in your school you can practise sanda and ground fight, nobody can say your not doing sanda, beyond that if you feel like entering a boxing competition or a mma competition , its simply a sport for the masses to view.

[Fu-Pow]

I agree San Shou should be stand-up only to maintain it's Chinese flavor.

Right, because CMA, in general, avoid going to the ground with the opponent.




But the concept behind Wrestling/Grappling (let's call it BJJ) is that you can use greater skill to overcome someone of greater strength by securing a more dominant position. At 165 lbs, I can often tap 205 lb guys at my same experience level.

Sure, some people muscle through it, but the same can be said for stand up.

Saying grappling is all about strength underscores your lack of ground fighting experience.

I feel that I am being misquoted me even if it was not your intention...at the very least misunderstood.

I did not state or intend that grappling is "all about strength." Obviously, all the factors that make good stand up, also make good ground.

What I'm trying to say is that prolonged contact allowed between fighters, stand up or ground OFTEN leads to a show of strength rather than skill (the more amateur, the more so). Or even more often it becomes a matter of sustained strength ....ie ....endurance.

In order to bring us closer to real combat in the CMA view (even though what we are talking about is "combat sport") superior grappling skill (ie clinch) in an encounter should be evident in a few seconds, not a few minutes. This is the speed at which technique must occur in order to be the most street combat effective.

Granted, a show of strength can also be demonstrated in minutes and not seconds but "on the average" limited contact will lead to more demonstrations of skill (Jin) and not strength (Li.)

This makes for better competition, realism, flavor and better sport to watch.

[Face2Fist]

ring fighting, does serval of things,

1. test your skill level against other opponents
2. trains your reaction time
3. trains you to get hit and defend against others.
4. teaches you to become a better fighter
5. prepares you mentally for fighting

now that being said, if people who training in CMA, have a big hard on about about sports fighting dont do it and move on and just practice your style in the comforts of your own school.

as for MMA, SAN DA, BOXING and GRAPPLING being just sports, what you learn from these so call sports you can use in the streets

[Fu-Pow]

as for MMA, SAN DA, BOXING and GRAPPLING being just sports, what you learn from these so call sports you can use in the streets

There's a big BUT in that statement, and that is....what you learn in the ring may not translate very well to the street and may get you into serious trouble.

So MMA, SAN DA, BOXING and any other combat sport are....as one poster here put it, a "necessary evil." If you never engage in full speed contact then you never experience applying your skill under pressure....that is, until you get in a real fight.

However, if you do engage in combat sport, I believe that you have to "hold onto the the ring lightly." That is, be able to see the difference between combat and combat sport.

From my own experience I can say that my athleticism, understanding and skill level has increased immensely since we have introduced combat sport into our school (basically San Da without throws, because we don't have mats.)

However, I still train the techniques that I cannot use in combat sport because I know that ultimately those are the techniques that would more quickly and efficiently end a street confrontation.

[Face2Fist]

There's a big BUT in that statement, and that is....what you learn in the ring may not translate very well to the street and may get you into serious trouble.

So MMA, SAN DA, BOXING and any other combat sport are....as one poster here put it, a "necessary evil." If you never engage in full speed contact then you never experience applying your skill under pressure....that is, until you get in a real fight.

However, if you do engage in combat sport, I believe that you have to "hold onto the the ring lightly." That is, be able to see the difference between combat and combat sport.

From my own experience I can say that my athleticism, understanding and skill level has increased immensely since we have introduced combat sport into our school (basically San Da without throws, because we don't have mats.)

However, I still train the techniques that I cannot use in combat sport because I know that ultimately those are the techniques that would more quickly and efficiently end a street confrontation.

what you learn in class doesnt transilate well into the streets, in class you do drills, not the actual technique, your partner doesnt go at you full force. so how is that different from ring fighting? i think ring fighting is probably closer than drill training in a classroom.

in the ring especially in amature events, they come at you full swing ready to knock your head off. in class you have this safety factor, you go light and slow.

you can train the techniques in class, but you will never know if it will work unless you test them out .

[shog]

Full contact SanShou is composed of the following areas:

1. "Da" (Striking) use of fist, open hand, elbow, fingers, head.
2. "Ti" (Kicking) kicking, sweeping, kneeing, stomping.
3. "Shuai" (Throw) wrestling, throwing, takedowns.
4. "Na" (Seizing) joint locks and chokes, i.e. submissions

I suppose they are not setup to do throws, locks, or holds yet. Perhaps in the future.

The above 4 areas are found in most CMA systems. Note that submission holds or techniques are not strictly owned by those who practice Greco-Roman type wrestling or judo/jujutsu.

The Greek martial art of Pankration was ancient Greece's version of no-holds-barred competition and were among the first group to bring diverse fighting styles into the same competitive arena. First known Pankration events were recorded around 700 BC. Combat in ancient Greece took on several forms such as wrestling and boxing.

Now also happening in the world was the feudal era of Japan (most of asia for that matter)...

And from that, we find that in the beginning the practice of unarmed combat (Sengoku jujutsu)was called Nihon koryu jujutsu, which included the principles around striking, body throws, joint-lock throws, unbalance throws, pinning, strangulating, grappling, wrestling, weaponry, and sumo. Over time it evolved to include; more complex defensive tactics such as; blocking, evading, off balancing, blending and escaping.

Without ancient tradition, that is without the following of koryu practiced prior to the Togukawa period (1600-1870), then it is usually termed as Gendai jujutsu or modern jujutsu, from which judo and BJJ were born.

We also know that Okinawan Tui-te is derived from Chi' Na, just as Naha-te came from Chuan Fa.

Chin Na is a grappling art. Grappling is another word for wrestling. Unlike western wrestling, Chin Na focuses on joint manipulation. Chin Na is an integrated part of Lo Han Kung Fu. It was developed during the T'ang Dynasty by the Shaolin, and included Chin Na (joint locks), Shuai-Chiao (wrestling/throwing) and Chi Kung (internal energy).

Throughout time, the Shaolin found it necessary to develop methods of self-defense and combat. That is their arts evolved as needed based upon the demands or pressures of their culture. It wasn't wise to go to the ground, based up the fact that many times, a monk was outnumbered. Striking was preferred, and made logical combat sense.

The Chinese Martial Arts do indeed have grounded fighting, they just have a preference to not teach it, and or I suppose that for some unknown reason, most modern instructors ignore the actual ancient methods of fighting, which include grappling, throwing, striking, and kicks.

There is a time and a place for everything...

:)

Just some lose thoughts...

[Fu-Pow]

what you learn in class doesnt transilate well into the streets, in class you do drills, not the actual technique, your partner doesnt go at you full force. so how is that different from ring fighting? i think ring fighting is probably closer than drill training in a classroom.

I think it depends on how you train drills. Yes, if you train them slow and with no power or realism then they will be ineffective when you need them. Sometimes you need to START OUT slow to get the mechanics correct (ie Taiji push hands.) If you train them fast and hard then that movement will be remembered by your body when you need it.




in the ring especially in amature events, they come at you full swing ready to knock your head off. in class you have this safety factor, you go light and slow.
you can train the techniques in class, but you will never know if it will work unless you test them out .

Well to take your logic on step ****her....the techniques used in a street fight can only be tested in a street fight. Otherwise how will you know the work?

To me combat sport is only another "drill", even though on some levels (ie speed and contact) it more comes closer to real combat. However, in terms of techniques used in real combat the "drills" that we use come much closer.

For example, in San Da we always punch with an closed fist, in drills of technique for the street we rarely use a fist at all. Advantage in street fight is that you don't break your hand on your opponents face with a fist......something that could definitely happen when, in the case of San Da, you are used to having hand wraps and a 16oz glove protecting it.

[Fu-Pow]

The Chinese Martial Arts do indeed have grounded fighting, they just have a preference to not teach it, and or I suppose that for some unknown reason, most modern instructors ignore the actual ancient methods of fighting, which include grappling, throwing, striking, and kicks.
.


Grappling has 2 facets, stand and ground. CMA emphasizes the first and pretty much ignores the second. I find it hard to believe that it was "lost" or just not taught. There are something like 300 styles of kung fu in China and very, very few of them have any ground fighting.

[shog]

There is the art of Shuai-chiao, which is "throwing horns".

However, they focus on the throw (versus submission) as does Modern Jujutsu, and Judo.

I suppose the reason that they focus on stand up grappling is based upon the premise that you will lose if you go on the ground, so strike so efficiently you won't, and learn the best standing (throwing, locking, manipulation) techniques to take someone down.

This concept is also called 'fast wrestling'...

It's odd that Japanese were more into throws, locks, takedowns, and ground fighting (Chikura Kurabe) than most of China was.

China seemed pulled toward striking with the hands and feet.

The exception to this is of course Mongolian Wrestling. MW has been rumored to be an ancestor of Sumo.

However Sumo seems concerned with the takedown or the standing/partial standing submit.

:)

Just more reading. Thought I would pass on some thoughts.

[Fu-Pow]

The moment that ground fighting are introduced into Sanshou, you will never practice any:

1. Throwing skill (all you need is to grab your opponent on the waist and fall backward).
2. Throwing counters (why counter his throwing? you love to go down with him).
3. Throwing combo (all you need is one single technique, to hug him and allow him to fall on top of you and then surround your legs around his waist - I love a girl to do that to me).
4. Throwing resistance (why resist him? ground is your paradise).
5. Balance after throwing (balance has no meaning in ground game).

The throwing art will be disappear from the face of the earth when that happen.

Beside the above 5 concerns, there are:

6. Mobility (hit and run).
7. One against many (take care your opponent, his brothers, sisters, father, and mother at the same time).

which has nothing to do with Sanshou but has to do with combat in general.

You may gain "1" (the ground fight ability) but you will lose "7". Will that be a good trade off for CMA in general?

You may also help to popular the gay community but that will be entirely different subject.

Great technical points, I hadn't thought of those....nor the connection to the Village People. ;) :D

[lkfmdc]

YouKnowWho and I have had our technical differences, and I'm still not sure his position on ground fighting in the larger scope of martial arts training... but in this case he has stumbled upon what I was saying before...

If you ONLY do MMA as your competition format, you lose much of your stand up... This is why my guys all do San Da first, and continue to do san Da even if they like MMA.

This is why MMA people are starting to do San Da, to develop their stand up.

[SanShou Guru]

It seems to me if you want to do San Shou with ground fighting then you just do MMA. Isn't that what it would be?

It's like saying why don't you make boxing more realistic by adding kicking, oh wait hasn't that been done?

get my point?

You want to do San Shou with ground fighting then enter an MMA event.

[Becca]

What I'm trying to say is that prolonged contact allowed between fighters, stand up or ground OFTEN leads to a show of strength rather than skill (the more amateur, the more so). Or even more often it becomes a matter of sustained strength ....ie ....endurance.


I agree with you 100%. When a fighter runs out of good, useable technique they often resort to brute strength. That, to me, is the biggest appeal to MMA in general and the UFC spacifically. Can a stand-up fighter keep the ground fighter from bringing him down? Can the ground fighter fight well if he can't bring his opponant down? This is what makes a good MMA fight. Not who can bash the other more, but who can figure out a way to win when the cards are stacked against them.

I am very much looking forward to UFC 56 Saturday. The fight scheduled between Matt Hughs and Joe Riggs will be an interesting one. Both are monsters, strength wise. Will they rely on strength once one starts loosing? Or will they rely on skill? I forsee Joe trying to use his strength punching power to overwelm Matt. I am interested if Matt will use his head and vast fighting experience, or if he will fall back on his wrestling. If Mat t uses skill and good technique, I believe he will win. But Joe will maul Matt badly if he tries to overpower or wrestle. It's all about the age. Matt is too old to fight a kid's game and win. But he has so very much experience, if he thinks his way though it, he can't loose.

My point, as relivent to this thread? How do you get to be exceptional at stand-up if you don't focus on stand up? San Da is a stand-up art. And a very good one, at that. A boxing coach can teach you to hit and move your head. A San Da teacher will teach you 100 tricks to keep a punch from landing and then use the momentum of his punch to strike back. A boxing coach will teach you how to take punches all day long and still be able to fight. A San Da teacher will teach you how to end it before that happens.

Judo will help you learn to get the other guy to the ground, but will not help you if you can't get them to the ground. What do you do if you can' get a successful shoot, throw or sweep? Keep trying all night?!? What happens if you can't land a solid punch? Do you keep trying the same thing that ain't working?

That's exactly what happens to one demensional fighters. But there are no one demensional fighters in San Da, or any other true CMA. Would gound skills help? Yes. But and a true CMAist hold his or her own in an MMA fight without it? Yep.

[Wong Fei Hong]

You know who, you hit the nail on the head with that post, looking at mma events ive seen people who come from a pure judo background , never use their throws.
I think the reason being as you said most people dont care how the fight gets to the ground, but that it gets there.

When judo was being created by jigoro kano, he invited different schools of jj to compete with him, and his students beat them all in competition,
Apart from Fusen-Ryu, fusen ryu would always go straight to the ground and lock up his students, in this light jigoro kano took the techniques of this style and had them incorporated into his kodokan judo. A few years on, the trend followed that all guys who were bigger would only use ground techniques not caring how they took the guy down. So jigoro kano eliminated how much time you could spend on the ground so as to turn judo into more of a stand up game.

Fusen ryu turned into kosen judo or high school / college style judo which is still very heavy on ground work, this is what maeda taught to gracie, and history is still being revisited with that **** ground game :rolleyes:


Again i think though that if we look at shuai jiao or japanese jj, their throws, are intended to be practised on hard ground, and not for people to land so comfortably with a breakfall. So being on the recieveing end of a full force throw on hard ground would really mess you up. Ive been thrown on mats by someone who was in the nationals of our country and not only dont you know what direction the throw is coming from if you dont train judo, but when you land with a full force throw, you almost get winded.

Also a lot of the throws of nowadays judo , dont exist in competition anymore because they involved locking the body part during the take down which would end up in a broken body part. The same with shuai jiaos winding throws where you wrap your leg around the opponents during the throw.

[Stranger]

When judo was being created by jigoro kano, he invited different schools of jj to compete with him, and his students beat them all in competition,


There is more than a little debate as to whether Kano's team won this competition due to the superiority of judo over jujutsu or due to the superiority of Kano's jujutsu fighters (fighting under the Kodokan banner) over the opposing non-Kodokan jujutsu fighters.

[Face2Fist]

well said sanshou guru,

san shou with groundfighing is just MMA but with boxing gloves. but it will be funny to watch to grown men trying to submit one another with 14oz gloves.

IMO, is that alot of americans not aware of san shou, in the US muay thai and american kickboxing, and lately MMA are recognized. san shou has hasnt hit the mainstream yet. and alot of people that i have spoken to, dont understand the rules that well, you tell them, you can grab, throw, punch, kick, and knee and their first question is can you hit them on the ground or submit them. when you say no, they are so whats the point? and they say MMA is complete, which is true to an extent but lately all you see are guys going for the GNP, well in the UFC and KOTC, in japan their stand is decent to good.

[lkfmdc]

I explain it to my students and to anyone who asks this way....

In San Da, if you throw correctly, you are either standing up or on top...

1. Standing, you can make them stand up, or you can stomp and kick them, play soccer with their head :eek:

2. On top, well, there is your BJJ or Sambo, or Shooto top game. Try to strike or submit them or you can maybe still stand up.

If in San Da you are thrown, which every San Da fighter knows can happen, then you have to have the "bottom game" and learn not to get kicked, escape, get back on the feet, etc....

People are crtical of BJJ because it is often all ground, but if you do San Da this doesn't matter when you cross train BJJ... you will already know how the fight got there...

As for the quality in Japan, it is because they understand the need for amateur leagues and have set them up well... something the US is missing out on completely, in fact, US MMA is trying to get rid of amateur MMA.. :mad:

[xaiolin]

1. Why do you think that including groudn fighting in the competition "evolves" it?

2. Who are you to say such things?

LMFAO if you think that San Da is some bandwagon for Kung Fu people to be "bigger" than MMA..

San Da is what it is, whether you like it, whether you understand what it is (which you apparenlty do not)

It doesn't need to "evolve"... it is drawing many MMA people precisely because it is what it is. IE it makes them better at their stand up. Turn it into MMA and it is what they are already doing. And it would rapidly DE-generate or DE-volve...

Sadly, I hate to be rude, but let me be blunt, people who are not active in the fight world, aren't training to fight, don't know what is going on... you have "ideas" but your "ideas" are not connected to any reality...

****, and you're a sifu or a coach?? you need to learn how to respect people and their opinions. How dare you judge me saying that im not active in the fight world and not training to fight, you dont know me.... my ideas are exactly what they are, ideas.....

[lkfmdc]

****, and you're a sifu or a coach?? you need to learn how to respect people and their opinions. How dare you judge me saying that im not active in the fight world and not training to fight, you dont know me.... my ideas are exactly what they are, ideas.....

I am both a Sifu and a coach

As a sifu, I can stack my lineage and credentials against anyone, even you and your teacher.

As a coach, I can similarly stand very tall. I run one of the most respected fighting programs in the US.

So, enlighten me, who are you? Name the fighting events you've competed in or the fighters you've trained. Or the fighting events you've promoted...

I've promoted fights since 1994, more San Da fights in the US than any other promoter without exception PERIOD. I'll be launching a new amateur MMA league in January 06 as well

So from what perspective can you say ANYTHING about training fighters, how fighters develop or how competition formats play out? Go ahead, I'm dying with aniticpation :cool:

Everyone has opinions, everyone has ideas, but hate to inform you, they are not all equal

So let's hear what credentials you have to comment on training fighters...

[mantis108]

Hi YouKnowWho,

I understand where you are coming from and the perspective is interesting. However, I think what you pointed out is a bit out of context. So I would like to play a litte devil's advocate on behalf of ground fighting.


The moment that ground fighting are introduced into Sanshou, you will never practice any:

1. Throwing skill (all you need is to grab your opponent on the waist and fall backward).

I believe BJJ would at least shown 2 or 3 ways of takedowns or throws even at the beginner level. They may not be very sophisticated from a trained Shuai Jiao stylist point of view but they would have back up plans for failing the first attempt or so of takedown. The sad truth is you can't stop people being just a brute. Adrenaline is a beeatch sometimes and crude moves might just be the most effective. So....


2. Throwing counters (why counter his throwing? you love to go down with him).

That's true however this would be more a mindset of an experienced ground fighter IMHO. Most novices would not be comfortable enough to go to the ground when their breakfalling and rolling skill aren't shape enough.


3. Throwing combo (all you need is one single move, to hug him and let him falling on top of you and then surround your legs around his waist and surround your arms around his neck, and put your face next to his - I love a girl doing that to me).

I believe this depends on who the exponent is and how the opponent reacts. In competition, one move wonder is often more effective. But it also depends on the conditions and/or attributes of both contestants. Look at Ken Shamrock and even Randy Couture, we can see that Father Time is the biggest equalizer. Conditioning can only carry a figther so far. So twilight grapplers even strikers for that matter should have more than one trick in their gloves. Besides while the guard is powerful, the mount is a better place to be. Most grappler would want to finish with a top game not a bottom game. But then if you are out weighted by your opponent, a superior guard game may save the day. In most cases, fighting to throw and land on top of the opponent is important. This is why a long of MMA people are training wrestling. I am sure if they have exposure to Shuai Jiao they might even take up Shuai Jiao. Personally, I would love to do Shuai Jiao as well but it's not availabe in my area or in most Canadian city centers. So...


4. Throwing resistance (why resist him? ground is your paradise).

Mostly for the same reasons above. BTW, yielding is not necessarily a bad thing. It seems to me that you don't quite approve of yielding. Personally, I believe you could be yielding yet aggressive at the same time.


5. Balance after throwing (balance has no meaning in ground game).

IMHO balance is crucial in all phases of fighting even on the ground. In fact, try a top game (knee ride/knee on belly) without balance and see how far that could go.


The throwing art will be disappear from the face of the earth when that happen.

Well, there is at least a decade of BJJ schools, grappling and ground fighting proliferation. We haven't seen any major collapse in any of the "traditional" arts enrollment wise. On the technical front, we have no evidence of Shuai Jiao or Judo for that matter being "diluted". The same can't be said for Karate, TKD and Kung Fu in general. What we lack is "reversed engineering". Know thy enemy and know thyself. That's the only way traditional Kung Fu will survive and hopefully excel even more.


Beside the above 5 concerns, there are:

6. Mobility (hit and run).
7. One against many (take care your opponent, his brothers, sisters, father, and mother at the same time).

which has nothing to do with Sanshou but has to do with combat in general.

no arguement there.


You may gain "1" (the ground fight ability) but you will lose "7" (as mentioned above) which will not be a good trade off for CMA in general.

That's an excellent point.


You may also help to popular the gay community but that will be an entirely different subject.

As much as I am Chinese and deep down inside converservative as much as the next Chinese, I think this comment realistically don't work in your favor. People's life style choices and sexuality is their own business. I know I am not that way and have not intention of getting involve in that life style that's good enough for me. I know you are old school Chinese but a little compassion for those "lost soul" might just help the world to be a better place. This is not an attack on your views and believes but as friendly and gentle reminder from someone who admires your passion and effort for the traditional arts. On second thought, I realize your comment could meant to be humorous in a way. So please forgive my being blunt and please pardon me if I offended you.

Thank you for your unwaiving contribution and input to the traditional Kung Fu community.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Mutant]

A large part of San Shou's future is up to us, collectively as CMA peeps,to develop and take part in. If we stand by the wayside and just watch to see what happens, it will be left up to others to run its course. Coach Ross it currently doing a lot to help promote the sportfighting arm of CMA and i think he's doing a great job, no matter what you might thing about his 'politeness' LOL. But there is room for various CMA exponents to help this part of kung fu grow, even if its the smaller role of just attending an event or competing at a local level. This is what will bring San Shou / San Da and much of CMA into the forefront and keep it relevant.

[Mutant]

As a commentary on 'what people like to watch' as far as interest in sport-fighting events go (which could in turn influence the direction that San Shou/Da evolves), I can add that when ever I've seen San Da fights together with other style matches, such as Kickboxing, Muay Thai and MMA at mixed venue event, the San Da fights have really brought down the house. I've been to smoker events where after an hour or so of MMA and mostly groundfighting with not much clean standup, the San Da guys have had the glazed-over crowd on their feet, many whom had never seen or possibly heard of San Da / San Shou before. Granted there have been some talented San Da guys in there (Acosta/Norman & Pope/Morgan fights come to mind in particular) but the mixed crowd LOVED the San Da, the combination of all standing techniques and throws/takedowns performed at a high level and furious pace without protracted groundfighting is incredibly entertaining and the crowd went mental. I don't think there is anything 'broke' in San Da that needs to be fixed; we just need more dedicated people to step up, which will in turn help the talent pool grow.

A ground game can always be added to create a bad-azz MMA fighter out of it. We currently have several experienced BJJ guys who come to our gym to train the stand up aspect that they recognize we specialize in, in a way that is different than what they would get in traditional MT or kickboxing. As MMA fighting gets more and more refined albeit h0mogenized, competiters will be looking for that extra edge, and they may find that in San Da, which can in turn expose them to some of the value of Kung Fu.

[Merryprankster]

I believe that San Da + BJJ type training is the wave of the future in MMA. San Da already integrates throwing and striking from a tactical perspective - something that MMA fighters are still working on in many cases.

I love watching it. Cool as ****.

[lkfmdc]

Mutant, if you are talking about the show we did up in Boston with Pope vs Morgan, than it was James Battle who fought Mike Norman, that was a GREAT FIGHT.... NOrman and Acosta fought Lei Tai style in FL.. too bad they never fought San Da in a ring :)

As for how polite I can be :p well, if you don't like my apples, don't shake my tree

If you are really part of the sport, you should show up on Dec 10th

visit www.uskba.com or www.kingofsandausa.com for info

[David Jamieson]

you can blame dana for trying to trash amateur mma.

dudes getting rich off of amateur fighters by taking them semi pro and pro into his ufc megabusiness.

of course he doesn't want anyone else cutting into his cash cow.

[Stranger]

The moment that ground fighting are introduced into Sanshou, you will never practice any:

1. Throwing skill (all you need is to grab your opponent on the waist and fall backward).
2. Throwing counters (why counter his throwing? you love to go down with him).
3. Throwing combo (all you need is one single move, to hug him and let him falling on top of you and then surround your legs around his waist and surround your arms around his neck, and put your face next to his - I love a girl doing that to me).
4. Throwing resistance (why resist him? ground is your paradise).
5. Balance after throwing (balance has no meaning in ground game).


****************

I'm not on this thread because I want san shou or san da to change. I'm posting because the above quote is a sweeping generalization. Not all MMA fighters drag their opponents to the ground or jump to guard.

I submit this video to illustrate my point.

http://www.robclaw.com/slam.wmv

[xaiolin]

I am both a Sifu and a coach

As a sifu, I can stack my lineage and credentials against anyone, even you and your teacher.

As a coach, I can similarly stand very tall. I run one of the most respected fighting programs in the US.

So, enlighten me, who are you? Name the fighting events you've competed in or the fighters you've trained. Or the fighting events you've promoted...

I've promoted fights since 1994, more San Da fights in the US than any other promoter without exception PERIOD. I'll be launching a new amateur MMA league in January 06 as well

So from what perspective can you say ANYTHING about training fighters, how fighters develop or how competition formats play out? Go ahead, I'm dying with aniticpation :cool:

Everyone has opinions, everyone has ideas, but hate to inform you, they are not all equal

So let's hear what credentials you have to comment on training fighters...

while I have not trained any fighters or competed in any events, I do train to fight... and to say that your lineage can be stacked against mine is unnecessary because my lineage is tied in to your's... I train in Lama Pai and Jow Ga... I do understand the concept or the point that you are trying to make about San Shou and San Da, and I do respect it.... If you change it, then it wont be what it is.

[xaiolin]

if you all are familiar with TUF (The Ultimate Fighter), then you should recognize the individual standing up in the pic. He's Forrest Griffin from TUF 1 and he's in a Kung Fu school... classic example of mma trying cross train San Shou

[Stranger]

How many throwing moves can we see from this clip? Leg/legs shooting and nothing else.

While I do see many leg takedowns in that highlight video, I also see torso wrestling a la Greco-Roman wrestling. Did you not see these throws? I have also see leg pick-ups attempted in SC (at least the only footage I have ever seen). It was posted on emptyflower and the match took place on dirt.

Either way, leg takedown or torso throw, the guys in the video I posted are throwing powerfully and successfully- what more is there to debate? At least a few of those fights on the video ended in TKO's as a result of those throws- even one of the double leg takedowns. The UFC today is loaded with talented wrestlers with strong Greco-Roman skills. Prides HW champ is a Sambo guy with awesome takedown skill.

Check out fighers like Karo Parisyan, Fedor Emilianko (sp.), Randy Couture, Matt Hughes, etc.- they have spent long hours training takedowns and takedown defenses. They do NOT simply jump to guard, butt flop, or drag their opponent down.

[Face2Fist]

the thing i like about san shou is that it doesnt give the wrestler or any fighter with little striking experience to lay and pray once the fight is taking to the ground. people think that MMA is just take them down and GnP and thats it, actually a good MMA fighter should be able to finish the fight, where he sees best to end it, ground, striking or submission.

the fighters that stranger mention with the exception of couture, that are well rounded, especially fedor, he has good striking, good take down defense, good grappling skills and good defense. before anyone says different take a look at both fights against nog and he fight against cro cop.

[lkfmdc]

while I have not trained any fighters or competed in any events,



The comma is thus unnecessary. You aren't training fighters nor have you been a fighter. Nor should I note, have you promoted the sport. Thus, your understanding of what is being discussed here is very limited

Sure, your uncle may go the the highschool wrestling matches and may watch the NCAA finals every year on ESPN. But would that mean he could debate wrestling technique with Dan Gable?






.. and to say that your lineage can be stacked against mine is unnecessary because my lineage is tied in to your's... I train in Lama Pai



with who?

[lkfmdc]

I will have to disagree with youknowwho on this one, I see a lot of upper body clinching in that clip, similar to Mongolian Shuai Jiao. I even see a ****zer ("cracking" or two)...

[Mutant]

Mutant, if you are talking about the show we did up in Boston with Pope vs Morgan, than it was James Battle who fought Mike Norman, that was a GREAT FIGHT.... NOrman and Acosta fought Lei Tai style in FL.. too bad they never fought San Da in a ring :)
That Boston show did come to mind, and yeah now that you mention it I do recall Mike fighting James that time around, which was an awesome fight! I was also at the Florida event where Norman fought Acosta, which was great too. There really have been a lot of classic San Shou/Da fights, and as an example I was relaying that amalgamated general impression.

See you next month.

[Merryprankster]

classic example of mma trying cross train San Shou


Uh, no.

There is nothing "classic" about this example. I would venture to say it's closer to "new" than "classic."

But that is the hallmark of MMA (and any smart MA ist, IMO). I don't care where it came from if it makes me better.

[Christopher M]

Wouldn't it have been quicker and easier to type "I don't know anything about wrestling"?

That wouldn't have conveyed his ignorance of CMA's though. You gotta look at the whole picture.

[Ray Pina]

Until one is free to hit an attacker that has turned his back ... until punching an arm is equal in value to kicking a leg --- which will never be as long as there is gear on the hands -- until a fighter is free to capitalize on a downed apponant or not, of his own free will, until a fight is allowed to go until the finish with no stoppage to receive air, water and instruction....... it is just a game, be it a violent one resembling a fight.

Each veneue sets rules to benefit the style hosting. Until we are free of gear and rules, no technique's value can be truly known, only assumed.

[Face2Fist]

if you look at it, people that train in MMA, do train San Shou, they just dont know it. when they wear boxing gloves, and add throws to their strikes, thats basically san shou.

what ever happen to draka? isnt that a form of san shou?

[lkfmdc]

it is just a game, be it a violent one resembling a fight.



Sadly, this is a basic issue very few ever grasp the significance of. Even UFC, even Vale Tudo in Brazil is NOT a "real fight"

I don't care how "hard core" you think you are, it isn't a fight. It isn't a fight unless you sprinkle glass on the floor, have one guy carrying a razor blade, has his buddies show up with chairs, include a clueless crowd screaming at the top of their lungs while getting in your way, etc etc etc etc

I've "fought" with elbows and even head butts, still wasn't a "real fight" in the sense that Chan Tai San fought, life and death.

so basicly I find most of these discussions pointless

[lkfmdc]

And Ray, I'd like to point out something to you. While you may think that punching an arm is such a great tactic, remember that everytime you try to hit my arm, you might end up hitting my ELBOW.... it's going to take a lot more than one shot to make my arm dead, and while you're taking those shots, it only takes one shot to my elbow to break your hand. That's the fault I find in your logic

[Ray Pina]

You're right .... that could happen. In combat lot's of things could happen. A kicking leg could be broken impacting a knee, elbow or even a highly conditioned shin. My training has made it so that my strike finds its target (forearm or soft spot under bicep) but I know the other guy just isn't sitting there.

But to give a point for a leg to land on a leg but not for a fist to land on an arm is illogical to me. I do understand that one good kick to a leg can cause some damage .... but one could also charge in at that moment, take the guy down and get ready to ..... oh, no, break. Get back up, take another kick, take the guy down, ready to pummel ..... break. Get back up.

In real life, maybe the other guy could have fed that guy multiple forearms after charging in on him. Maybe his leg would hurt for a day from that ONE kick, but it would have been worth it.

Instead, as soon as he gets advantage he's forced to stop and let the other, who maybe specializes in this game, get another crack. That's why I like to let fights take their natural course, leave the fighters alone.

Well, that's just me.

Anyway, is there an updated list for fighters at 187? Is this guy Moody one of your fighters?

Getting excited. Only 2 weeks away. Are you expecting a big turn out for the traditional stuff? Will fights run while that's going on? I might do a form.

[SevenStar]

You're right .... that could happen. In combat lot's of things could happen. A kicking leg could be broken impacting a knee, elbow or even a highly conditioned shin. My training has made it so that my strike finds its target (forearm or soft spot under bicep) but I know the other guy just isn't sitting there.
But to give a point for a leg to land on a leg but not for a fist to land on an arm is illogical to me. I do understand that one good kick to a leg can cause some damage ....

the hand is much more fragile than the shin. you are far more likely to break it. The leg can also do far more damage.


but one could also charge in at that moment, take the guy down and get ready to ..... oh, no, break. Get back up, take another kick, take the guy down, ready to pummel ..... break. Get back up.

In real life, maybe the other guy could have fed that guy multiple forearms after charging in on him. Maybe his leg would hurt for a day from that ONE kick, but it would have been worth it.

Instead, as soon as he gets advantage he's forced to stop and let the other, who maybe specializes in this game, get another crack. That's why I like to let fights take their natural course, leave the fighters alone.

that's a condition you agreed upon when you agreed to fight in that venue... consequently, what you could do there doesn't matter...However, I'd bet that a takedown is more points than a leg kick, so in your example, the guy doing the takedown every time would still win.

[ShaolinTiger00]

If anyone is interested in seeing exactly how san shou integrates into MMA, I welcome you to visit my school and train with us.


Steel Valley Martial Arts & Fitness
110 East Main Street
Scio, Ohio 43988
(740) 945-1801

steelvalleymma@hotmail.com

[lkfmdc]

Shaolin, nice plug :)

There's also www.NYSanDa.com obviously :p

[Tigerlilly]

Hey guys.. lately I've been going to juijitsu tournaments to fight. I recently won @ kata (3rd)with my kung fu kiu (hung ga)Ohana 2005 The fighting at the juijitsu is awesome no pads, no hand gear, you can do almost anything, no biting, no small digit control(you can't break the opponents fingers)no eye gouging, no striking once you're on the ground, you can throw, kick below the waist all kinds of cool stuff,but it's not as intense as the cage fighting, but plenty of these tournies have money prizes, or one of my dojo buddies won a 1000$ katana over veterans day. It's a pretty cool venue...:) just a thought

[Face2Fist]

Hey guys.. lately I've been going to juijitsu tournaments to fight. I recently won @ kata (3rd)with my kung fu kiu (hung ga)Ohana 2005 The fighting at the juijitsu is awesome no pads, no hand gear, you can do almost anything, no biting, no small digit control(you can't break the opponents fingers)no eye gouging, no striking once you're on the ground, you can throw, kick below the waist all kinds of cool stuff,but it's not as intense as the cage fighting, but plenty of these tournies have money prizes, or one of my dojo buddies won a 1000$ katana over veterans day. It's a pretty cool venue...:) just a thought


this sounds interesting, i think, i heard of these tournaments. youre not allowed to strike to the head, right? only body? what state is this?

[Ray Pina]

the hand is much more fragile than the shin. you are far more likely to break it. The leg can also do far more damage.


I certainly understand that. The thing is, if I'm striking at a forearm its because its following a fist that has been thrown at me. While possible, very few people can throw a punch with real intention, then, midway, pull the pench and aim their elbow towards my incoming fist. Just doesn't happen.

Now, if I was punching at your shielding forearms that are in a state of blocking, I could understand that.

But talking technique over the internet is pointless. And going into a fight thinking, "well, if he kicks me he'll get 1 point but if I charge in and he falls I'll get 2 points so it's a worthwhile trade" is not a place I'll ever fight from again.

I'm going to beat someone on Dec. 10. Points and rounds are not on my mind.

[Merryprankster]

so basicly I find most of these discussions pointless

Sifu Ross, me too, so long as everybody plays by the same rules - in the discussion - not the sportive fight.

Bottom line - everything we do, training in the kwoon/dojo/club has rules of some sort allowing us to do one thing: come back tomorrow and get better. What people always wind up arguing about is WHICH SET OF RULES IS BETTER!

"The ones at MY school!"
"No, the ones at MY school!"
"No, MMA rules! Only the ring!"


Sigh....

There is no such thing as smart training without rules. If people want to "train" for "reality," then they can go pick fights somewhere out in the street or something.


I don't care how "hard core" you think you are, it isn't a fight. It isn't a fight unless you sprinkle glass on the floor, have one guy carrying a razor blade, has his buddies show up with chairs, include a clueless crowd screaming at the top of their lungs while getting in your way, etc etc etc etc

Well, to be fair it might also be a fight on nice soft grass, some fat guy amped up on his own hype, nobody for blocks, and nothing to use for weapons :D

Oh yes, and wimmins. Lots of wimmins. Who strip for a living.

[Ray Pina]

Training is one thing. And I don't consider it so much rules as common sense... you don't want to get injured while training. So you break out certain fight situations and train them, first in concept and motion and then you add intensity, use gear, etc.

However, this is different than meeting another trained fighter in one-on-one combat. Take my present situation. Lot of talk about how I should be doing this or that, how doing it my way is futile, only works against bums who want to show up and fight like animals ... would never work against the good guy.

Fine, but then let the "good" guy do what he wants, express himself fully, and let me do the same.

You see, I want to fight bare knuckle, no gear, no rules. I'm prepared to face what you got and live with the consequences of whatever should present itself.

I am trying to promote my master's style, no doubt about it. But this isn't that. This is being honest with oneself as a martial artist. How can a grappling expert be content only rolling with a striking expert and ask not to be elbowe din the face, kneed in the head, ect.?

How can any martial artists feel good about having the action stop after they've been turned? Hit the ground? After anything happening. The whole point of the training is to be prepared for the chaoes of unarmed war.

Training is one thing. Going out to fight another man is another. One should fully understand what that means -- you beat me to a pulp or I beat you to a pulp. This situation doesn't have to be barbaric with glass and knives. We can meet in a park and determine this, or rent space at one of the many availble gyms.

Do you know understand why I say conditioning, while every real martial artists will have it, is a worthless gamble. How do sit ups and push ups relate to two men going for each other's throats right away? Someone's getting an advantage right away..... someone presses that advantage until the end, some 10 seconds later. The clock only ticks in the siazing up, feeling out phase. Once engaged, that's it.

[Face2Fist]

tigerlilly

do you have more info that tournament or a site i can see?

[SevenStar]

this sounds interesting, i think, i heard of these tournaments. youre not allowed to strike to the head, right? only body? what state is this?


Oso, a poster here, used to compete in these. He was on the national team, if I remember correctly.

[FatherDog]

Do you know understand why I say conditioning, while every real martial artists will have it, is a worthless gamble. How do sit ups and push ups relate to two men going for each other's throats right away? Someone's getting an advantage right away..... someone presses that advantage until the end, some 10 seconds later. The clock only ticks in the siazing up, feeling out phase. Once engaged, that's it.

In the IVC, where the fighters are bareknuckled and the only rules are no fishooking/eye gouging, and the action is not stopped, many fights have gone ten minutes or longer. Your above statements are false.

[Face2Fist]

some the fights last as long as 30 mins

The maximum length of each fight will be 30 minutes.

I.V.C. LAWS


No biting
No eye gouging
No fishing hook
No holding the ropes
No kicking if wearing shoes
No placing hands or feet inside the opponent's trunks

The referee can restart the fight



WAYS TO WIN

By knock out
By submission
By disqualification
By decision
The corner throw the towel
The referee or doctor can stop the fight

[ShaolinTiger00]

Regarding letting people go all at it and time, with a recent influx of wrestlers who saw the Spike TV show TUF and think they can fight, I've now resulted to getting to the point as quickly as possible with them and asking them to spar and telling them they can use anything at all. biting, gouging etc,. and that I'll use control.

in the last 7 times this has happened. I've just dominated position and let them wear themselves completely out before finishing them as they were gasping and struggling to move. These are very athletic guys. many of them are much bigger and stronger than me.

fight smarter not harder..
;)

[Ray Pina]

fight smarter not harder..
;)

Best words of the thread!


Face2Fist ... you can convince me to think like you all you want. In the end, I'm going to go beat someone because I know my way works for me. That's all there is to it. If you feel so adamantly about your way that you insist I am wrong, the only way to make me open to it is for you to show it to me. There is only one way I want to see this type of "self rightous technique" -- and yes, I am self rightous about my own, a fighter needs to be ... that's for you to show it to me in real free expression.

I am open to see it ffrom you anytime. If not, just admit that we have a different aproach. I feel good enough in mine to go fight. Let's see what happens and then talk.

You're talking before but won't fight me. So at least let this other fighter talk for you and then, affterwords, you can put your footnotes in.

I don't think about what others are doing, how long they fought. I worry about my own training, my own cultivation.

I'm in goood shape now. I was an All State football player. At 31, how do I condition to the level of the local high school varsity captain? ..... mission impossible! How do I condition myself to be 6'3" with that kind of reach when I'm 5'11? How do I condition myself to 400lbs when I am 187lbs?

That's impossible. You're relying on everything being equal and getting a slight advantage via conditioning. Reasonable.

I train that you are bigger, stronger, younger ... that's my pretense, my starting point. Looking towards conditioning for the solution is retarted. Even if I could condition myself 50 percent stronger, faster, etc. Am I the strongest man alive? And if so, how long can I claim that spot?

We differ in thinking. You're a sport fighter. I'm a martial artist.

[FatherDog]

I'm in goood shape now. I was an All State football player. At 31, how do I condition to the level of the local high school varsity captain? ..... mission impossible! How do I condition myself to be 6'3" with that kind of reach when I'm 5'11? How do I condition myself to 400lbs when I am 187lbs?


You don't. You condition yourself to be in the best shape you can be in, because skill plus good conditioning is superior to just skill.

If both fighters have enough conditioning to go all out for as long as the fight lasts, it comes down to who is more skilled. If one of them does not have that level of conditioning, the other one only has to be close to him in skill, and his conditioning will allow him to win.

[Face2Fist]

alot of well known MMA fighters used to fight in IVC. severn, goodridge, vanderler, and others

i seen some of those fights pretty vicious, silva was an animal in those fights, throwing elbows, headbutts, kicks, punches and etc. pretty good stuff

[Dash Iros]

It would be nice if sanshou fights were broadcasted. But no one give any value to sanshou these days...

[Ray Pina]

If both fighters have enough conditioning to go all out for as long as the fight lasts, it comes down to who is more skilled. If one of them does not have that level of conditioning, the other one only has to be close to him in skill, and his conditioning will allow him to win.


If it comes down to that, you are not good enough at what you do. Though I feel for you, because there's thousands taking your road right now and there's no way you, at your age and current level of commitment, can beat them..... they're doing what you're doing but training much harder.

But what if you encountered something different? Say BJJ when it first came out. Once they got you, it was so new, so unique, you were finished before it began. Tired? It was a walk in the park for the other guy.

What if I wasn't going to fight in the ring but my apponant was and he was training for this fight months out and we happened to run into each other at a night club and got into a fight outside ....... what, because he's conditioning my training should fail me? I have to lose that fight?

If so, what good is your training? The minute you stop lifting and running it's ruined? That's terrible. That doesn't sound like martial arts to me ....... the invaders are coming ..... are you going to sharpen your blade and do sit ups?

[Ray Pina]

alot of well known MMA fighters used to fight in IVC. severn, goodridge, vanderler, and others

i seen some of those fights pretty vicious, silva was an animal in those fights, throwing elbows, headbutts, kicks, punches and etc. pretty good stuff

Lately, you are sounding not unlike Kung Fu guys of old pointing to their master's master.

What are you doing with your method of training? I often hear from folks like you that it's become a hobby, you're too old or too professional .... can't risk an injury.

I'll be 32 soon, have a professional job too ... according to you, I train like a fool .... and yet, I keep doing all this fighting and showing up clean as a whistle. How can that be? How can a 32 year old who doesn't condition beat the younger guy who does? Magic?

I don't make these points to promote myself, I have nothing to promote. I'm trying to raise your mind as a martial artist. Yes, these MMA are very skilled fighters and have a good, sound way. But there are other ways, there really are. This isn't a matter of buying into Bull$hit, because the UFC and MMA is a good thing. It's a matter of, are you so pigheaded you can't see any other way?

No change or evolution can happen from a place like that. These are just words, but I've offered a long time to show it to you. If you really cared about seeing, you'd take me up on it-- and it doesn't have to be a fight. It could be show and tell. But instead you fight so vehemently for a cause that, well, you aint willing to fight for. Others are, but not you.

[FatherDog]

If it comes down to that, you are not good enough at what you do.

Then you'll never be good enough at what you do. No matter how good you are, there will always be someone who's close to your level of skill. And if their conditioning is better than yours, close is all they have to be.



But what if you encountered something different? Say BJJ when it first came out. Once they got you, it was so new, so unique, you were finished before it began. Tired? It was a walk in the park for the other guy.

As we've remarked upon before, many times, nothing you've described or showed about e-chuan is new or unique. But I guess you'll have a chance to try and prove it again soon.



What if I wasn't going to fight in the ring but my apponant was and he was training for this fight months out and we happened to run into each other at a night club and got into a fight outside ....... what, because he's conditioning my training should fail me? I have to lose that fight?

If he's close to as good as you are, and he's conditioned and you're not, yes, you'll lose that fight. That's the way fighting works.



If so, what good is your training? The minute you stop lifting and running it's ruined?

Of course it's not ruined. You train to increase your skill, because if your skill is way below the other guy's, you'll lose regardless of conditioning. But if your skill is anywhere close to his, and his conditioning is lousy and yours is not, you'll win. That's the way things work. Saying that that's "terrible" or doesn't sound like martial arts isn't going to make it not work like that.

[Face2Fist]

Lately, you are sounding not unlike Kung Fu guys of old pointing to their master's master.

What are you doing with your method of training? I often hear from folks like you that it's become a hobby, you're too old or too professional .... can't risk an injury.

I'll be 32 soon, have a professional job too ... according to you, I train like a fool .... and yet, I keep doing all this fighting and showing up clean as a whistle. How can that be? How can a 32 year old who doesn't condition beat the younger guy who does? Magic?

I don't make these points to promote myself, I have nothing to promote. I'm trying to raise your mind as a martial artist. Yes, these MMA are very skilled fighters and have a good, sound way. But there are other ways, there really are. This isn't a matter of buying into Bull$hit, because the UFC and MMA is a good thing. It's a matter of, are you so pigheaded you can't see any other way?

No change or evolution can happen from a place like that. These are just words, but I've offered a long time to show it to you. If you really cared about seeing, you'd take me up on it-- and it doesn't have to be a fight. It could be show and tell. But instead you fight so vehemently for a cause that, well, you aint willing to fight for. Others are, but not you.

WTF! first of all, i was making comment about IVC, since someone mentioned it.

second, i never said i was kung fu nor any other form of martial arts. as for mentioning masters why should when i dont have one and linage is not important as long as your skills are good.

thirdly, i dont care about your skills nor i care to see them. look i hear you yapping your mouth all the time, how my style is this and how i can beat these people and i do throwdowns and i m good since i fought throwdowns, you fight throwdowns good for you, that proves what nothing, just that you can beat the avg MAer nothing special. you say you are ready and willing to fight anyone, yet are whinning, yes whinning about weight and experience class in this upcoming san da fight. now that shows that youre not very confident of your skills, if you are worrying about the guy's weight and fight experience.

as far as for showing you my skills, who are you? no one important to show what i can do and what i cant do, youre just a hobbiest with dreams, of becoming this big martial artist, you remind me of that movie shaolin soccer trying to promote kung fu via soccer. you are a child, you are acting like most did as young when they started learning MA, boxing or another form of self defense. why dont you just stick to your throwdown, because thats the only way you will be a fish big, otherwise you will just be a big fish in a big pond with bigger fish.

what are the chances you are going to do better this time? i think slim to none, now have a good day

[Ray Pina]

You can say a lot of things about me -- and you have .... about your assumed weaknesses of my training, etc. But in the end, I'm beating a lot of guys right now. Maybe they're just average Joes like you say .... but these average Joes have something you don't.... the balls to stop typing and put up. They express their technique.

You just talk. You don't do anything. That's a very easy position to take; the knower of everything who never has to prove himself.

I have lost fights in the past, including that one and only ring match. So what? Who hasn't ..... someone like you who just talks.

Me? I lose, learn, train --- never said I'm not training, just not conditioning myself like a labratory rat on a wheel -- and go for it again, go test myself.

I don't consider myself a hobbyist. I am a martial artists, that is something you bring to the dinner table as well as the toilet. I'm training even when I'm not in class.


You're saying what my stly is and isn't without having seen it. I offer and offer to show you, and you beg off.

Look in the mirror man. Start there. Because you're failing as a martial artist. You bring embarrassment to yourself and dojo without even knowing it. If you're going to talk, back it up .... don't point fingers at what others have done. That's a useless roll. We don't need you for that. The invention of google has already made you absolete.

[SevenStar]

If it comes down to that, you are not good enough at what you do.

So, you are either better or worse than everyone you train with? nobody is equal? I find that odd... In any event, in competition, you definitely find your equals and people better than you. however, they may not be so much better that they can beat you easily; that doesn't mean they aren't good at what they do. It means that you are evenly matched. When this happens, you will run into the situation that FD described. Look at your last fight - you had YEARS of experience on that guy. hadn't he been training less than two years? but he had you outconditioned and you ended up losing. By what you are saying, since conditioning shouldn't be a deciding factor, then there is no way in hades that you shoulda lost that fight.



But what if you encountered something different? Say BJJ when it first came out. Once they got you, it was so new, so unique, you were finished before it began. Tired? It was a walk in the park for the other guy.

it was grappling. Grappling has now been covered in many forms. So has striking. You'd be hard pressed so find something so new and different that nobody had EVER seen it or anything like it...



What if I wasn't going to fight in the ring but my apponant was and he was training for this fight months out and we happened to run into each other at a night club and got into a fight outside ....... what, because he's conditioning my training should fail me? I have to lose that fight?

it might. just as your training may fail you on dec 10. You cannot predict the outcome of these things, which is why you should be looking to give yourself every advantage that you can.


If so, what good is your training? The minute you stop lifting and running it's ruined? That's terrible. That doesn't sound like martial arts to me ....... the invaders are coming ..... are you going to sharpen your blade and do sit ups?

In all reality, your training is nothing more than leverage. It's no guarantee that you will win, it's merely something to help ensure that you do.

[Face2Fist]

You can say a lot of things about me -- and you have .... about your assumed weaknesses of my training, etc. But in the end, I'm beating a lot of guys right now. Maybe they're just average Joes like you say .... but these average Joes have something you don't.... the balls to stop typing and put up. They express their technique.

You just talk. You don't do anything. That's a very easy position to take; the knower of everything who never has to prove himself.

I have lost fights in the past, including that one and only ring match. So what? Who hasn't ..... someone like you who just talks.

Me? I lose, learn, train --- never said I'm not training, just not conditioning myself like a labratory rat on a wheel -- and go for it again, go test myself.

I don't consider myself a hobbyist. I am a martial artists, that is something you bring to the dinner table as well as the toilet. I'm training even when I'm not in class.


You're saying what my stly is and isn't without having seen it. I offer and offer to show you, and you beg off.

Look in the mirror man. Start there. Because you're failing as a martial artist. You bring embarrassment to yourself and dojo without even knowing it. If you're going to talk, back it up .... don't point fingers at what others have done. That's a useless roll. We don't need you for that. The invention of google has already made you absolete.

ok, youre beating alot of guys, but you beating novice fighters not even amatures, the guys you are fighting throwdowns arent even C class fighters. you yourself arent the best figther i seen either, from the pics you have shown. so get off that i beat alot of guys, because those are MAers playing UFC or Pride.

call me out all you want, doesnt me squat to me, because your words dont bother me or your name calling, so go ahead say what you want. i m a failing martial artist say what you want i dont care, since i never made such claims of being a martial artist.

if you look at it, it bothers you when people here poke fun at you, it hurts your ego and crushes your confidence. your ego is not going to let you win, you think taking a few deep breaths and tightening your arms for a few seconds is going to conditioning you for a fight, HA!

say all you want, you have doubts that youre going to win, i m repeat myself again, which is something you do very often, you were whinning about the weight and experience the other fighter might have. for someone who is suppose to be very confident about their style and fighting skills this is the least of their matters.
but what do you expect from someone who spends most of his time talking about his style and fighting friends.

[Ray Pina]

if you look at it, it bothers you when people here poke fun at you, it hurts your ego and crushes your confidence. your ego is not going to let you win, you think taking a few deep breaths and tightening your arms for a few seconds is going to conditioning you for a fight, HA! .

I'm human. Of course it bothers me when people make fun of me. Doesn't it bother you?:)

The thing that really bothers me though is the people who are poking fun won't give me the opportunity to prove them wrong:p ....And you judge my total fighting ability by a still frame? That says a lot about you .... not to mention I'm bashing someone's face in that photo:rolleyes:

I want you to think about these things you have said and understand I'm going into the ring next Sat. somewhat for you, and folks like you. I want you to know that. This way if something should happen, and if you have a heart, you will feel some weight of responsibility. One man is going into the ring to "win", accumalate a lot of points, maybe score a KO or TKO. Another man is going in to prove something and also see what happens when he doesn't have to worry about beind sued, letting it all out.

If there is one thing I fear about this fight, it's that for some reason I show up to fight this guy. All I want from myself is to show up calm and ready to beat someone, and that I express myself to the best of my ability without holding back.

[Ray Pina]

Your last post was spot on ... it was. Very good. I can't argue with a word of it. I'd say the same thing to one of my students.

All I can say, and I'll say this as if we were friends sitting in a dinner having this same discussion about a fight I'm having in a few weeks.

"I can't explain it. My master showed me something in Jan. that has changed my entire outlook. I now understand what we means about not going to fight someone, just go beat them.

Before, I was toughing it out, using some shielding but still waisting a lot of energy, still fighting against the guy. Now, I'm relaxed, I wait. And when the time si right, when I see I can get control, then I spring the trap.

So far it's been working for me. I do fear the ring. I had a bad experience. I felt I could beat the guy but no matter how much I hit him he was still there. He did a good job of clinching and sweeping me too. I gassed. Completely spent.

I think I'm a new man now, with a new way of going about this business we call "fighting." I can go back and try to match this man's training and conditioning, or I can keep what's been working for me and see if it will work at this level.... that's what I want to know. Can I get away with this here. Because you do feel like you get away with something -- like a crime -- when you face someone who thinks they're going to beat you (these guys don't show up so I can punch them in the face on camera) and you beat them silly, pack up, and get the hell out of dodge in under 3 minutes.

So, I know it sounds crazy, but I'm going for it. Worse case scenario is I get knocked out .... will be a new experience. Best case scenario, a gym full of people will witness this Revolution I've been experiencing the past few months.

..... want some of these cheese fries? I'm full. Want to go puff this blunt, or are you all on the Republican tip these days?"

[ShaolinTiger00]

I'm not sure that you understood my "fight smarter not harder" comment Ray.

Training smarter, does not mean not having great condition. Just the opposite. It means learning skills and conditioning in the manner that provides the best result/effort ratio. ex . don't plod away on a treadmill when you should be doing sprints.

[Ray Pina]

Well, I've been surfing all summer. Now that the water's freazing and I'll only go out when its perfect, I've been swimming. More importantly I've been tree-trunk punching, stupid punching, working the clinch, ground fighting .... it's not like I'm sitting around eating Dorritos .... it's Honey BB chips but only when I get an Iron Mike Sub (chicken clutlet w/bacon and Russian Dressing).

The only thing I'd love to do before this fight but I won't get an opportunity to is to go catch a trout or two and bop their heads off with my stone. No car (bad accident) and the season is now closed.

I train differently because my aproach is different. I have more conditioning than I need to fight my fight. Not to fight his fight. But if he drags me into his fight, then he deserves to win. The swimming I'm doing is more to make my weight and just keep the body in motion.

[SevenStar]

"I can't explain it. My master showed me something in Jan. that has changed my entire outlook. I now understand what we means about not going to fight someone, just go beat them.

Before, I was toughing it out, using some shielding but still waisting a lot of energy, still fighting against the guy. Now, I'm relaxed, I wait. And when the time si right, when I see I can get control, then I spring the trap.

I'm curious now... what did he show you? If you don't wanna post it here, then PM me.



So, I know it sounds crazy, but I'm going for it. Worse case scenario is I get knocked out .... will be a new experience. Best case scenario, a gym full of people will witness this Revolution I've been experiencing the past few months.



Sounds like the attitude is right. Coincidentally though, I thought about you last night. A buddy of mine that used to train with us is in town giving a seminar at the school - look for him , he's on sherdog now - his name is mike pyle. He's training with randy Couture now, and if you watch Randy's last fight, he actually said something to the effect of "I'd like to thank mike pyle for helping me train". Don't be surprised if you see him in an upcoming season of the ultimate fighter.

Anyway, he went the route that FD, myself and others have been saying as a means of rising to the top. He started fighting locally, then moved on to bigger venues, then fought in denmark for like a year. At one of his fights, he got noticed by couture and has been training with him ever since. last night, I asked him what his training regimen was (because mike is 30 - only two years behind you) and he said that all he does is cardio and sparring. He wakes up and does cardio and strength training, then later in the day, they do cardio and sparring. He and randy train about three hours a day. That's it. And that is enough to allow them to keep up with these younger guys out there.

[Wong Fei Hong]

Im curious about the internal too, reason is because whenever i do intensive internal work, like someone would do in camp before a fight for example, but all internal... well i get fat , apart from the fact that i bulk up allover like ive got water retention, i get fat on my stomach, and i go up aroudn 4 inches in waist size.

[Ray Pina]

If you saw the pic from my last ring fight to today, you'll see I dropped well over 20lbs. I'm fit now.

What I learned was simple enough, it's a way of holding yourself up. It feels as if your body is stretching both up and down at the same time from your mid-section reagion.

Now, this in itself isn't it. It's realising that I've been walking around like a slouched monkey for 30 years. I've also learned, not from my master, but the Tao, how to seperate orgasm from ejaculation..... there is a difference, and their is a benefit. Not that I don't from time to time, but I know how to stoke the fire so to say.

So when I go fight now, I have my technique .... you need that. You also need power and you need conditioning. But I am living on another level than I was a year ago. I've been beating folks who remind me of what I used to be. I know whoever is stepping into the ring will be more than that. He will be an alpha version .... well trained, tough, conditioned and motivated.

I want to see what I can do against that. That is my aim. I don't want to condition that other way anymore. I've done it a long time. I like the way I train now. It is challenging taking internal deeper and some of the training, while not hard, isn't easy either. It's easy to say, well, we're just walking back and forth. Well, maybe the other guy is. But in my mind I'm driving off the hip, fueling my entire mass foreward .... so I do it back and forth for 20 minutes. Then I do some shielding. Maybe play ground with friends. Anything and everything.

I just don't lift and run.... I see that as a losing proposition. I know the other guy is bigger, faster and stronger ..... but he's just fighting: kicking, punching, locking. When I beat someone, they say I'm just fast and strong .... mostly they don't see how: structure, mechanics and position. That is what I invest in. Structure, mechanics and position. All of those lead to kicking, striking and locking. Those don't need to be trained as much. If you can tie the guy up, striking takes care of itself.

We're all ending the same way, very true. But how do you get there? How long can you keep it?

[Rockwood]

Ray-

Thanks for posting your thought process for us all to see. I really enjoy watching your growth and appreciate how you've pushed yourself, and continue to do so. I know it doesn't fit with how a lot of people would like you to do it, but I'm glad that you are taking your own path, and using Mr. Chan's teachings as your guiding light.

It's like an experiment, can you achieve your goals within this frame work? We'll see. But more important than that, win or lose, you are giving your all to a system, and as you refine it and grow it, this will bear fruit. Stick with it and you will get where you need to go, with some ups and downs along the way.

Thanks also for maintaining a mature attitude when some children try to troll and complain about you. f2f is like 16 years old and cowering behind his monitor rewinding ufcs over and over to try and act like he's an adult. What a joke. I think this is clear as day to anyone who reads his posts. It is nice of you to waste your time trying to talk sense to the boy though.

Take care, and follow the Road you are on to it's conclusion.

-Jess O

[Merryprankster]

In all reality, your training is nothing more than leverage

Precisely.

What we call "technique," or "skill" is nothing more than a way to maximize efficient use of attributes.

But on that note, a wise old wrestling coach, with more knowledge about life and death situations than most of us here will ever know thanks to 30 years spent in the Marine Corps, offered this advice.

Are you strong? A tired man is no longer strong.
Are you fast? A tired man is no longer fast.
Are you skilled? A tired man is a sloppy technician. (which incidentally then makes you more tired...)

His point, which will be nicely lost on several people here, is that conditioning matters.

I've said it once, I'll say it again: To enter a competition without being in shape to compete is nothing more than an ego preservation measure. It allows you to lose but keep your pride intact - "I was more skilled/better than him, but I just didn't have the gas in the tank."

It's much, much harder to train your ass off and enter the ring knowing you have done everything you could to prepare to win. When you do that, your ego is on the line. If you can prepare like its the most important thing in your life, then compete like you don't care what happens, you've got your own ego licked, and you'll be the best you can be because you'll take the risks you have to take to win.

And if self-mastery isn't the point of anything we do to try and improve ourselves, then what is the point?

[Ray Pina]

Condition matters.

However, have you seen Ocean's 11?

You need someone to carry the loot out of the hotel, just like you need condition.

But you certainly don't pay the bum who can carry a bag on his shoulder the same as the genious who plans the whole operation, the highly skilled guy who can crack the safe.

Fighting is not much different. Anyone can hit. Can you get in? Can you open the other's guy door? If you can do that, it is akin to tying the guy up and hitting him freely. You need to have condition more like a linemanfor that .... a strong, verocious burst ... then back to the huddle.

Condition.... condition... condition ..... Don't tell me you are better conditioned than an olympic swimmer. Are you afraid of him? How about of the olypic lifter who is your same wait? Well, you might be afraid of him, because you base so much of what you bring to a fight on on your ability to out push the other guy, out do everything. What if you changed the subject? What if you pull the pusher? What if you don't counter punch the puncher, rather absorb him?

Anyway, this conversation grows stale for me. Martial Artists? I see carbon copies. One family did well with their technique, taking men down and cranking or pounding them. It worked for them. Then others got wise to it. So then, same technology against same technology leads one to the gym for an edge.

Not unlike, "Ew, Picaso made millions so lets just keep copying him ... but we'll just use brighter colors to be MORE of a Picaso." Now there's a million Picaso's competing to see who can be the best Picaso .... lemmings.

I don't expect you to believe what I'm saying. Though Merry, it's not like I didn't offer you several chances before you disappeared to the West Coast ... conveniently never finding time to invite me down. If you remember, I said I'd come and you begged off busy .... but I never mentioned a date. Just said I'd come. You said you'd rather come to NYC. Then you're gone. So I can blame you more than someone reading this, calling BS, but never having the chance to see.

You blindly dismiss.

Anyway, I don't condition more for a fight. I've been fighting monthly, usually taking a fight 4 days out. I have an overall level of fitness that alows me to do what I need to do when I need to do it. The fight is over a week away. Every time whoever I'm going to fight goes for a long run, he's convincing himself this is going to be a long fight. Every time he lifts, he's conmvincing himself that extra power is going to get him through.

I'm saying it again.... I know he's better conditioned and probabaly stronger in terms of lifting dead weight .... after all, that's his specialty, were he's investing.

I put all my time into cracking safes, and I'm going to open his up wide or get KOed trying... someone will be out before I get tired.

Believe it or not. Actually, keep talking. The more words you add now are the more you'll need to eat Mon., Dec. 12, when I post a picture of the ref saving this guy.

As for you, I think I've seen your pic. Keep conditioning. I'll keep chilling. Wheneveryou want we can go for it (I have lots of friends in San Fran). You'll still be smaller and less powerfull than me, and you'll be less blood thirsty because while you're "working out" I'm increasing my love for beating someone. I think that will make this point more clear for you. What happens when the other guy doesn't look at it as a long-winded sporting event rather a bar room brawl over a girl? It aint going rounds. It's going exchanges.... 2 or 3 at the most.

[MasterKiller]

Every time whoever I'm going to fight goes for a long run, he's convincing himself this is going to be a long fight. I just wanted to point out that nobody runs 20 miles for conditioning any more. That's old skool and out-dated. You run sprints (like ST00 said), which is more fight-oriented. Long runs are the equivalent of a 10 minute horse stance--you do it for mental conditioning, pushing yourself through the pain, etc...

Since "street" fights are quick and fast, sprints are good conditioning for them as well.

[Ray Pina]

Ali ran, sprinted, swam, sat up, pushed up and heavy bagged himself to lose 40-something pounds to face the 8-year younger Larry Holmes .... what did it do for him?

When you train that way there comes a time when you're simply out. Can't compete no longer. Look how many guys are in their 30 and 40s and saying they're too old for it? Too old? These arts were created for the older man to protect his younger wife when trouble came knocking .... who wants to hear too old?

My master is wise enough not to put himself in a position to play a game that's against him by it's mere design .... can't hit someone in the back after you turned them? That's Ba Gua's sole purpose for existing. And why shouldn't you be allowed? The other guy felt alright about punching at you. If he's turned, he's turned. He shouldn't be so agressive. He needs to pay for his mistake.

But I degress. My master at 65 still puts a serious hurting on me. Clocked me good twice last night... and I seriously tried to stop one of them for sure. Don't even remember the other... just feeling it. This is different. This is martial arts. The two men ontop of the hill type of thing.

I am adamant about it because I'm like Peter, I'm blessed to have seen so it's not belief for me, it's real life experience. I've seen judo guys, young, prime of their life Thai Boxers come,. Gracie students.... I've seen pretty much everything come and be dealt with politely by my master. He never has to beat them bad. He shows them power, then puts his fist in their face and they stop. Only one, a teacher in DC with 3 Thai schools, had the confidence in himself to post that the old man is good. I know of one pretty well known guy who walked away with slouched arms asking, "Was that Dim Mak" only to write a wishy washy report on the intyernet later. Don't worry. It's been noted. It's next on my list. First things first.

But do you hear this? Where does condition come into play? It comes into play in the ring and in the cage but only because it is guys thinking like this who bring it their. That is an empty space, only what you bring is in there.

I have proven to myself that I can fight. That's not an issue any more. I'd love to fight these type of guys out of the ring, with no gear..... so I need to create a reason.

So I take a risk and enter an event that is set up differently than I would ultimately choose. But that is not me looking for a backdoor excuse if defeat should find me.

Maybe the other guy has a big jacket and I have on gloves? Maybe I'm injured somehow or sick. Maybe I find myself in a ring with a pillow on my hands and head ..... fine. But all of these things are things that have, will or could present themself on MY PATH.

Last time I was wondering around lost .... half on my path, half on this other being proposed. I don't have all of my master's technique. Funny, sometimes before a fight I stay away from him because I don't want to see how little I know. But I know I have enough to pull off my mission if I arrive calm and focused.

In the end, there's no pressure on me. I'm a taiji guy. But to be a San Da guy and get beat in your ring .... he better be running and lifting and eating his fruity supplements like Spike TV tells him he should.

[Face2Fist]

ray

here's a question for you

does your master, know you post here? and does he read what you post? because if he did, i dont think he would approve of your comments.

and as for calling me out, go ahead call me out all you want. i dont care for it, and i get nothing from it, so enjoy and good luck.

[Rockwood]

f-face,

Here's a question, who the are you and where do you stay?

What you talk about makes no sense because you aren't a real person. Please make yourself known so the world can take you seriously. Otherwise you are simply another child behind a monitor.

-Jess O'Brien
Oakland, CA



ray

here's a question for you

does your master, know you post here? and does he read what you post? because if he did, i dont think he would approve of your comments.

and as for calling me out, go ahead call me out all you want. i dont care for it, and i get nothing from it, so enjoy and good luck.

[lkfmdc]

Ali ran, sprinted, swam, sat up, pushed up and heavy bagged himself to lose 40-something pounds to face the 8-year younger Larry Holmes .... what did it do for him?


Oh, not much really, just survive the most dangerous heavy weight the world had at the moment, outlast him and eventually knock him out, making him the only man at the time to win the world title two times and forever making him a figure of great historical importance.

Other than that, no much :rolleyes:

[Wong Fei Hong]

Reading through this thread i think it started off on the wrong foot, so many people are bickering and adhering to apoint of view thats only justifiable by them not wanting to lower their ego and ppl who normally wouldnt are talking sh!t

Round 2 ..........

[Ray Pina]

That's easy. Go to his profile. He's a computer wiz from New Jersey and a man in body and mind if not countenance.

I've already offered to fight him. He says he trains at a serious gym. Says he holds pads for training partners that are very serious. Even rolls with them .... as long as they don't hit him.

F2F, if you post your gym and what days you train, I would LOVE to come see what you can do. Obviously you've given me plenty of reason not to like you. I'm sure you're instructor -- and training partners -- would understand why I would request such a match when I hand over excerpts from your posts.

So what says you? Let's weigh your honor and courage.

As for my master, he's been beating folks down --- some of them well known who still pay their respect to him (with bear fists or with solid wood bokkens ... and yes, bones have been broken) --- since before you and I were born. Imagine that? Doing this stype of thing since you were 5? And be 65 and still etching away and refining, not even close to satisfied.

Yea, he cares what you or me has to say:rolleyes:

[Ray Pina]

Oh, not much really, just survive the most dangerous heavy weight the world had at the moment, outlast him and eventually knock him out, making him the only man at the time to win the world title two times and forever making him a figure of great historical importance.

Other than that, no much :rolleyes:


Ali won the title 3 times.... Holmes beat him so badly Dundee threw in the towel between round 10 and round 11. Ali never beat Holmes. In fact, after that Ali fought a few exhibition matches as money-making jokes and then got beat one more time by the Canadian champion and then retired again for good.


Ali was the greatest. But condition couldn't save him in the ring against a younger striker. How does the 38 year old condition to the 30 year old? Impossible! The other guy is conditioning too.

[lkfmdc]

Dear lord, my bad, I read it quickly and for some reason thought you were talking about his bout with FOREMAN.... wow, see what happens when you don't have your usual cup of coffee? :)

Still, I don't think you're example supports your idea. Holmes beat Ali after 10 rounds. Both guys were conditioned. Both used conditioning as part of their fight. But Holmes also had the best jab of ANYONE Ali ever faced....

[Ray Pina]

It's funny because I'm reading that book I posted about, Writers' Fighters by John Schullan, and its kind of sad to see how hard it was for Ali to step out of the limelight and in the end it cost him his health. Then chapter 2 is about Sugar Ray almost losing his eye.

So on that happy note, what time do the fights start next Sat? :) It's been terrible knowing about a fight this far in advance. Just too much time to think about the things you're not supposed to be thinking about as well as the things you are. Not to mention eating right and swimming and being 3 lbs too light so then eating and now being 4 lbs too heavybut at least I kind of figured out the flux with a weak to go.

What time is weigh in on Fri. night?
See you soon.
Ray

[SevenStar]

What if you changed the subject? What if you pull the pusher? What if you don't counter punch the puncher, rather absorb him?

these are basic strategies in judo, bjj, thai boxing, etc.


As for you, I think I've seen your pic. Keep conditioning. I'll keep chilling. Wheneveryou want we can go for it (I have lots of friends in San Fran). You'll still be smaller and less powerfull than me, and you'll be less blood thirsty because while you're "working out" I'm increasing my love for beating someone.

Actually, I think merry is bigger than you. aren't you down to 187 now?

[Mortal1]

Ray

I think everyone has been trying to help you not abuse you. I could tell your no slouch. But you need to condition. Especially for a ring fight. True if it is bare knuckle one good punch and its over. But you guys are wearing gloves and headgear. That soften the blows and makes it into a fight that requires you being not only conditioned but highly conditioned. It is a fight with rounds and rules. I know you prefer a straight up street fight but this is much different. I agree with many things you say. But on conditioning I think you need to hold it an a higher regard. For the reocrd I will be there and cheering for you. Good luck!

Anthony

[SevenStar]

When you train that way there comes a time when you're simply out. Can't compete no longer. Look how many guys are in their 30 and 40s and saying they're too old for it? Too old? These arts were created for the older man to protect his younger wife when trouble came knocking .... who wants to hear too old?

that's an inevitability. It's called aging. doesn't mean you're too old to fight or train, only too old to compete. As good as your teacher may be, he wouldn't last in a ring against these young guys.


But I degress. My master at 65 still puts a serious hurting on me. Clocked me good twice last night... and I seriously tried to stop one of them for sure. Don't even remember the other... just feeling it. This is different. This is martial arts. The two men ontop of the hill type of thing.

In training, yes. One of my judo coaches is a 79 year old three time national champ... he can put a hurting on people too. At age 76, he even chased a burglar from his home. However, he can no longer compete - he's simply too old. And he himself will tell you that.



In the end, there's no pressure on me. I'm a taiji guy. But to be a San Da guy and get beat in your ring .... he better be running and lifting and eating his fruity supplements like Spike TV tells him he should.

This sounds like the excuse merry was talking about...

[FatherDog]

That's easy. Go to his profile. He's a computer wiz from New Jersey and a man in body and mind if not countenance.

Uhhh... actually, I'm the computer guy from New Jersey. I don't think Face2Fist has ever mentioned where he's from. Smoke less weed, Ray.

[Eddie]

any guy who gets in the ring to test himself instead of sitting talking about it whole day, is ok by me :)
Good luck Ray, you must keep up posted.
there is so much to pro fighting, its not as easy as everyone think. Athlete needs to be more than just that, you need to perform, both fighting wise, as well as on stage. If there is a big crowd, it can get tough (if you are not used to being infront of an audience). anyways... Please let us know how it went.

erm, any chance you can post some pics of you? I googled ray pina, and according to about 3 results you died in 1978 :eek: :rolleyes: . Cant find any pics

[Merryprankster]

ANYONE Ali ever faced

Sifu Ross, you forgot to mention that at that point Ali was:

1. Old
2. Old in ring years too
3. already starting to suffer the effects of either parkinsons or pugilists syndrome, whichever it is.

A better question might be: what did all that conditioning do for him the other 40 some odd bouts?

[Merryprankster]

Oh, and for Ray's information:

I'm pushing 30 - turn 30 in January. The young college kids I train with do nothing but ***** about how much stronger I am than they are. I'm in shape enough to roll with them 20-30 minutes a day 4-6 times per week, plus my lifting activities.

I'm pushing 215 right now and I'm stronger than I ever have been in my life. My conditioning hasn't suffered, my mobility hasn't suffered, and I'm significantly better at my chosen art than I was two years ago. This, plus being married and having a full time job.

That might be because I took ST00's advice about training smarter, not harder, to heart. I spend 30 minutes in the weight room, tops 3 times a week. I spend 30 minutes conditioning, tops 2 to 3 times per week. All because I learned about the subject. If that's "too hard," or "not worth the time," then I don't know what to tell you. I'm stronger and in better shape - even than when I wrestled. And it takes me a grand total of 2.5-3 hours a week.

As much as you desperately seem to want to "fight" me it won't answer any of your questions about your own ego or your own ability. Truthfully, it's a lose lose situation for you. If you "win," you beat a guy who's basically a sport grappler with about 6 months of amateur boxing experience, and one amateur mma fight taken on a week's notice at a local held-at-the-moose-lodge event because his instructor told him to.

As I recall, you claim to be much much better than that. Revolutionary in training approach and technique application from what you tell us. So "fighting" me does what exactly?

But here's the dirty little secret, going right back to ego and excuses. You aren't really fighting to conquer yourself. You're fighting because you've got something to prove to everybody else. And in order to make sure you've got nothing to lose, you don't even bother to train much for it. You've built an excuse in - "I probably would have won if I hadn't run out of gas."

Not much good there I'm afraid.

Now, if you were to "lose," a "fight" against me, then you've lost to a sport grappler. Either way that's not especially valuable.

Here, let me turn the tables. I'll compete against you in a sportive gi grappling match under BJJ rules. What does that tell me about my skills or about my mettle? In a gi match under BJJ rules, I have no doubt that I would take you apart by my standards.

But you know what? That doesn't tell me anything. Beating a guy lost in my world doesn't show a **** thing. In short: So what?

Your primary response/rant/spew about this has been that I'm "Not man enough to face you." Yet, I've got scores of matches under my belt, and many of them are against top competitors in my sport at the top competitions available to me. I've won some and lost some. Won more than lost happily, although I don't know what my record is.

Sounds like I put it on the line against other people, some of whom are expert at what they do, regularly. Just because you sneer at the venue doesn't mean anything. Olympic TKD guys are competing at the top levels of what they do and I have tons of respect for them. They are man enough to face the top competition in their sport. That's what really matters - how hard they train and their willingness to step up -again and again - against people who challenge them physcially, mentally and technically in their venue. Are we to think less of gymnasts because they don't take punches?

Here's a friendly recap of the three main points of your last ring fight:

1. You quit.
2. Afterwards, instead of taking the responsibility for the loss, you said "I was better than he was, but I ran out of gas."
3. You quit.

Incidentally, points 4-50 are also "You quit."

You quit because it was easier to quit than to lose. And let's be clear - you wouldn't have gotten beat, you would have lost. There is a distinct difference.

As to being better than him you were only better than him for about 2 minutes as I recall. After that, he was better than you...because you were in lousy, lousy shape, carrying what looked to be about 20 lbs you didn't need, and got real sloppy, real fast because TIRED FIGHTERS ARE UNSKILLED FIGHTERS.

Now, none of this is insurmountable. All of it can change - I've seen it happen. But you gotta do. A vision without action is just a dream.

[Ray Pina]

WOW .... Matt Hughes, UFC Champ, is going to be at the mall around the block from me tomorrow!

How auspicious.

And SevenStar, you're right, I don't think my master could compete in the ring. But I think he could beat the same person outside of the ring with no gear ..... THAT'S MY POINT! That's how I judge martial arts. This other stuff is other stuff. It's somewhat like it. It can develop the qualities, the attitude, but it is not it. Only it -- free fighting with no rules or gear -- is it. Everything else is a game.

[MasterKiller]

1. Don't go throwing down any challenges to Matt Hughes. ;)

2. Kick some @ss in your ring fight.

[Face2Fist]

1. Don't go throwing down any challenges to Matt Hughes. ;)

2. Kick some @ss in your ring fight.


it wont be a smart move but fun to watch, espn on the scene

hello ladies and gentlemen this rob smith here at the mall where ufc champ matt hughes is making an apperance.

in the background you see matt carrying ray accross the parking lot to slam him.

that will be a great site LOL

[Ray Pina]

Merry, I highly respect you for your BJJ skills and the fact that you put them on the line in competition and are succesful while doing it. I highly respect the olympic gymnast, as you say. The power to do an Iron Cross... jeez. The Wushu form player .... beautiful.

What I don't respect is when competive sportsmen who fight under rules that fit their style, such as you can snap my arm but I can't break your nose .... or, I can punch you 10 times,but if you turn me on the 9th don't start beating me in the head .... or, like TKD, don't catch my kick .... don't punch my face:confused: ..... this is not fighting! This is a game with rules. Obviously, not everyone likes to play with fire. But don;t compare holding the match, flicking the lighter or a camp fire with a raving forest fire, a 10-story inferno. They are different. They require different aproaches.

One good bareknuckle shot to the chin negates a lifetime of sit ups, sprints and steroids. If you don't allow that shot you are not fighting. You're hiding in safety behind cushion rules. Some guys are real cowards .... that's point fighting. Some guys are warriors .... that's UFC. There's a whole lot in-between and then there is stuff outside of that. My master shattered someone coller bone with a bokken. Can you imagine grown men swinging solid wood bokkens (not shinei's) without gear? That is confidence in your technique. How many sit ups would you do to prepare for that?

As for the past .... I was in lousy shape. I was also living in a purgatory of seeing my master's technique but not having much of it and still be anxious to fight. I did condition for that match. I sparred in class for over an hour with rotating partners. Being in the ring is different.

Luckily, the past is the past. What I had is not what I have now.

[Merryprankster]

Truthfully, although you may not believe it, my sentiments echo MK's

I wish you the best of luck in your ringfight, and I hope it's the beginning of a good path for you.

[Face2Fist]

i kind of see your point ray.

but those are the days of old. now sport fighting is big business or its becoming and it will become bigger since TUF is a big hit, no one wants to fight bare knuckle theres nothing to gain from it but i m tougher than you bragging rights, but whos wants that when you can go into a ring and beat someone and a few fights later you get an endorsment deal, more money to fight and open up your own school and produces in which in return brings you in more revenue.

[Ray Pina]

You have to be tough to do that kind of fighting .... and I'm not really tough. I hate to get hit. That's why when I found a style that's against trading blows, against conditioning yourself for a dig-in-and-dook-it-out kind of fight .... and can still beat someone ..... and the guys in his 60s ... than I new I found home for me.

But there are a lot of tough fighters out there. I had a guy e-mail me stoked that he took 4 or 5 good shots from me and remained on his feet..... didn't matter that his face swelled up like one of those clowns that you shoot water into on the boardwalk. To me, those guys are scary. That's crazy. They don't care.

Me? Please don't touch me.

[Ray Pina]

Spoke to my master and heard what I knew but didn't want to hear .... it's not the right thing to do... to challenge the Champ while he's doing business. He's earned it. He trully has. So I'll go there and just talk to him and see what I can learn, propose a go with some of the fighters they have going out in Vegas when I'm there in Jan.

Tough pill to swallow because I did see it there for a second.... connecting a solid head shot while he shot in, right there in the parking lot. And then I wouldn't have to be so eager to fight. The point would be proven.

Not see easy I guess.


The good news is that I was truly open for that. Or him breaking my little punk arm for being so eager and missing my fight next week. I think a lot of it is that it's been too **** cold and dark to surf and the only thing I've had the past 45 days is fighting.

I'm glad I caught myself. Or that my master held the mirror up for me to see. Nothing is worth a clear conscious. Doing the right thing. Now I kind of regret the Emin Boztepe thing though I learned something from that too but apparantly forgot it. The professionalism thing. But what can be expected from an amatuer. A nobody who thinks he's somebody. Who feels something inside.

[SevenStar]

Spoke to my master and heard what I knew but didn't want to hear .... it's not the right thing to do... to challenge the Champ while he's doing business. He's earned it. He trully has. So I'll go there and just talk to him and see what I can learn, propose a go with some of the fighters they have going out in Vegas when I'm there in Jan.

Tough pill to swallow because I did see it there for a second.... connecting a solid head shot while he shot in, right there in the parking lot. And then I wouldn't have to be so eager to fight. The point would be proven.

He wouldn't have taken your challenge anyway. That's what we keep trying to tell you.

1. He is matt hughes. you are nobody. He knows that there is like a 90% chance or greater that he would crack your spine.

2. he is matt hughes, you are nobody. Consequently, what do you have to lose? Nothing. If you lose, then it's "c'mon, it was matt hughes, what did you expect?" He on the other hand has something to lose and nothing to gain. if he beat you, then he just beat some other pro fight wannabe. He may even lose respect for pounding somone that he knew he outclassed. on the other hand, if he loses, he just got upset by a nobody - and he didn't even make any money off of it.

3. what have you done to deserve a shot at hughes? you have to work your way up to the big fish. right now, you're still just a bass in the pond, so how can you challenge sharks in the atlantic?



But what can be expected from an amatuer. A nobody who thinks he's somebody. Who feels something inside.

If you truly feel that way, then do what you need to do to earn a shot the correct way.

[Face2Fist]

thats the funniest thing i have heard in a while. ray challenging matt hughes, thats some funny sh*t.

and he wonders why people pick him? come on look at the things you say.

[Ray Pina]

I'm not doing it because I see it's not the proper time and place. Not because as a martial artist I don't have the right to request a match with another martial artists. If he wants to put himself on a peddastal as a sport fighter, he can.

But you're making this man into something other than flesh and bone. In fact, he's smaller than me and not a striker. I know he's a great wrestler. I have a friend Allen who was Marc Kerrs team mate in college. 215lbs, very skilled. I know guys who train with Gracie. Skill is skill.

A man is a man. As soon as you put someone above you like that you have no business fighting them. That's no attitude to go into a fight. I don't put anyone but my master above me. So I'll fight anyone but my master.

At the same time, I'm aproaching the man I'm fighting next week with the same caution I'd aproach Matt Hughes with. Anything can happen in a fight. One good shot and lights out .... and then you're at the other guy's mercy if he stomps you or not.

I've seen lots of people win fights who should have lost.

This messageboard is a terrible example of martial ettiquet and thinking. Think about it. What if an outsider were to come here. He'd think only the big, young conditioned could beat the older, older, less conditioned. That the guy who is 12-5 automatically wins over the guy who is 9-7.

Where is the spirit?

[Face2Fist]

I'm not doing it because I see it's not the proper time and place. Not because as a martial artist I don't have the right to request a match with another martial artists. If he wants to put himself on a peddastal as a sport fighter, he can.

But you're making this man into something other than flesh and bone. In fact, he's smaller than me and not a striker. I know he's a great wrestler. I have a friend Allen who was Marc Kerrs team mate in college. 215lbs, very skilled. I know guys who train with Gracie. Skill is skill.

A man is a man. As soon as you put someone above you like that you have no business fighting them. That's no attitude to go into a fight. I don't put anyone but my master above me. So I'll fight anyone but my master.

At the same time, I'm aproaching the man I'm fighting next week with the same caution I'd aproach Matt Hughes with. Anything can happen in a fight. One good shot and lights out .... and then you're at the other guy's mercy if he stomps you or not.

I've seen lots of people win fights who should have lost.

This messageboard is a terrible example of martial ettiquet and thinking. Think about it. What if an outsider were to come here. He'd think only the big, young conditioned could beat the older, older, less conditioned. That the guy who is 12-5 automatically wins over the guy who is 9-7.

Where is the spirit?

ray,

matt hughes is a well rounded fighter, he has good hands, smaller in height maybe, but the man walks around at 180 + so that is not that small, also he is a very strong fighter.

so martial etiquette is going to a man's home and challenging him? quickly calling people out when they disagree with you?

like sevenstar said youre not up to his level and he wouldnt give you the time of day. second just because you visualize hitting him as he is going for a shoot doesnt mean its going to happen, these guys train shoots, like thai fighters train kicks, i seen wrestlers shoot as fast as thai fighters kicks.

[MasterKiller]

I would be much, much more afraid of Matt Hughes than Emin Boeztepe. Hughes is a beast.

[Ray Pina]

You guys have lost before you even show up. Or, won't show up because you have already lost.

Aren't you training to stop the shoot? To stop striking?

What, you can't stop Matt Hughes shoot because he's Matt Hughes? How much faster is he than you? He's not bigger than 400lbs Jim from Philly who visits my master occassionally. He's a man with arms and legs. He's tough, no doubt about it. Anyone who shows up to throw fists and dodge fists with violent intent it.

The reason he's Matt Hughes is because he wasn't scared of the name that was above him when he was a nobody. Everybody starts off as a nobody. It's what you do to become somebody.

Now I can't wait to go shake this man's hand.

Believe me. I know who I am. I'm a young man with a fight next weekend and no one in my corner .... literally. Me, my camera, mouthpiece, headgear, shin guard and cup. That's my camp.

[MasterKiller]

Matt Hughes was an All American college wrestler and I believe two-time NCAA champion. He is in the upper-eschelon of wrestlers.

I'm not in the upper-eschelon of anything.

Knowing when to fight is just as important as knowing how to fight.

I'm sure your master is a tough guy. He's only flesh and bone. Why do you think he is unbeatable on the street?

[Ray Pina]

Never said he is unbeatable. I don't think anyone is unbeatable. What he is is hard to beat .... at 65 years of age ... at a very short stature, with extra short arms. How? Why?

Technique and power. That's what every style says it supplies but I don't think that is always the case. Usuable technique. Usable power. I'm not sure bench pressing is usable power for figthing. When do you get uqually balanced weight resisting ----><------- this way in a fight.

But I degress.

I have a friend who's about 215lbs. He was on the same collegiate team as Mark Kerr. Also an all America. We rolled a few times on the beach. He definitely had sensitivity and power. That's all of fighting. Can you "feel" what's happening. Do you have the power or finesse to create an opportunity.

Sometimes the other knows more or something foreign to you ... you're probabaly going to loose.

When you both know .... then you see who's better.

I think I can say I have played with pretty much every style of fighting out there. That's how I found my master. Now, having played with BJJ and having Gracie's school just as distant as my masters, so many Thai and other boxing gyms, including Gleasons, near by .... why do I go to my master? Because FOR ME, it makes the most sense. Seems the most practical. If a small man of 65 can use his stuff ..... not be the best, not be undeafeted .... fight the young guy. Then what if I can start getting his stuff now at 31? What by 35? What by 40? I'm only 3 years into his training. I through everything else away.

[MasterKiller]

I understand why you like your teacher. It's sounds like a great system.

But when Matt Hughes picks up a 180 lb guy, carries him across the mat, and then slams him on his head, that seems like usable power to me.

[Face2Fist]

You guys have lost before you even show up. Or, won't show up because you have already lost.
The reason he's Matt Hughes is because he wasn't scared of the name that was above him when he was a nobody. Everybody starts off as a nobody. It's what you do to become somebody.

Now I can't wait to go shake this man's hand.

Believe me. I know who I am. I'm a young man with a fight next weekend and no one in my corner .... literally. Me, my camera, mouthpiece, headgear, shin guard and cup. That's my camp.

the reason he is who he is, is because he trained and trains hard, i think he competed because he felt he was a nobody but because he has a competive spirit. again he became a somebody by training hard, proper conditioning and skills.

are you going to challenge him? if you do good luck, not because he is going to beat you but because security is going to drag you away.

youre going to be by yourself, your master and friends arent you going to in your corner, how come?

[Ray Pina]

My master has never been in my corner before because I've never had his approval to go out and fight. That might have changed recently, but I actually wouldn't want him here for this fight. I don't think it's going to be pretty and I don't want to involve him in anyway. Next year, when I start cage fighting, I will need him to be in my corner.

The usual suspects that I bring to my fights can't make it or haven't committed to go. We'll see what happens. But I just had some folks contact me for a Throwdown this Sunday, one fo them being that Grapplers Quest Champ from Philly who just got back from Brazil ... that has just taken precedence over everything. Like 4 or 5 guys have expressed interest.

I know the general concensus is that these guys are always bums, but besides the guy from Philly, I don't know anything about the others. So I'll train tonight with my master, teach my students tomorrow morning, then veg out and try to stay calm and focused.

[rogue]

Ray, You're going to do a throw down the week before you fight?:confused:

[ShaolinTiger00]

You cannot beat a amateur fighter with less than 2 years training, but you can beat Matt Hughes, a world class athlete, highly skilled martial artist and professional fighter...

This thread is enlightening. It speaks volumes.

[Ray Pina]

I'm going to post a pic from meeting them just now on Monday and then you tell me if he looks like a man that can over power me. They were both nice guys. I felt like I could take Matt Hughes .... just had that feeling when I laid eyes on him. Hard to say, it's that feeling of relief when you see the guy you're fighting and you're like, "OK, just don't do something stupid and ruin this."

He's not big at all. Or at least wasn't there. But wait till Monday.

As far as the amatuer. I gassed but he didn't land a blow on me. I've said that several times and believe me if he did, I'm sure there's a few guys here who would be happy to post the still of it.

There is a still from that fight though that they just happened to pic use in a flyer. I'm on the bottom, controlling the big guy up top and below while driving him out.

But the real thing is, past is past. Who I am today is what matters. I became a new man in Jan.

I'm sorry if I won't feel as small as you want me to feel.

[Face2Fist]

you are dilerious and delusional seriously.

size means nothing, you have said it yourself, when you say you beat guys that 250 + lbs.

but keep your threads coming makes me laugh when i m down
LOL

anyone can say i cant take on any fighter, thats why alot of fighters KOTF people at bars, because of that same attitude, oh he doesnt look tough, let me call him out and next thing you know, the guy is out cold. its all ego talk. ok, if you see tyson would you want to fight him, he is small like 5'5. 5'6.

heres something about matt hughes, he beat joe riggs, one of the strongest middle weights in the UFC, hardest punch and strongest guy. matt slammed him and caught him in a key lock, this guy riggs walked once at 300lbs and still has that power of a 300lber . so you tell me, if you couldve taken him, if so why not call him out?

[SevenStar]

But you're making this man into something other than flesh and bone. In fact, he's smaller than me and not a striker. I know he's a great wrestler. I have a friend Allen who was Marc Kerrs team mate in college. 215lbs, very skilled. I know guys who train with Gracie. Skill is skill.

you're missing my point, man. It's not about being afraid to fight him. It's about his status as one of the top fighters in his sport. What good reason would he have to fight an unknown? That wouldn't happen.



This messageboard is a terrible example of martial ettiquet and thinking. Think about it. What if an outsider were to come here. He'd think only the big, young conditioned could beat the older, older, less conditioned. That the guy who is 12-5 automatically wins over the guy who is 9-7.

Where is the spirit?

When it comes to the ring, he'd be correct, as far as better conditioning goes. The record doesn't mean much. perfect example was the last fight - you were older and lesser conditioned. That's why you don't see a lot of older people in the sport. The ones that are around train like he11 to stay there. That's really not an issue of spirit at all.

[SevenStar]

Technique and power. That's what every style says it supplies but I don't think that is always the case. Usuable technique. Usable power. I'm not sure bench pressing is usable power for figthing. When do you get uqually balanced weight resisting ----><------- this way in a fight.

But I degress.



think of grappling situations...

[SevenStar]

you say this...


I'm going to post a pic from meeting them just now on Monday and then you tell me if he looks like a man that can over power me. They were both nice guys. I felt like I could take Matt Hughes .... just had that feeling when I laid eyes on him. Hard to say, it's that feeling of relief when you see the guy you're fighting and you're like, "OK, just don't do something stupid and ruin this."

then you say...


As far as the amatuer. I gassed but he didn't land a blow on me. I've said that several times and believe me if he did, I'm sure there's a few guys here who would be happy to post the still of it.

You don't think you would gas against hughes? you don't think a top level wrestler could take you down? Regardless, try this - send your info in and try to get on an upcoming season of the ultimate fighter. That would be GREAT exposure for your style and give you a chance to show the world this different, revolutionary technique you speak of. At the same time, you will be earning the right to fight any big name guy that you think you can take. Seriously, think about it.

[rogue]

As far as the amatuer. I gassed but he didn't land a blow on me. I've said that several times and believe me if he did, I'm sure there's a few guys here who would be happy to post the still of it.I'm not a fighter by any stretch of the imagination but one thing I do know is that gassing is the same as losing. I gassed during a belt test and got some ribs cracked because I couldn't defend. Boxing, same thing. I see on TUF when someone gasses they are soon getting pounded. If you are so gassed that you can't fight then you are at the mercy of the other fighter. In other words you lose.

[Ray Pina]

Rogue, you're right. That fight was 2 years ago. Let's hold comments and see what happens this Sat.

Anyway, here's the Matt Hughes pic I promised.

[jungle-mania]

Just want to check with you guys, is the term now officially sanshou or sanda? For a while, I been telling sanda is the term for professional and sanshou for amateur. Now I am hearing conflicting arguments from 2 of my coaches that it sanda or sanshou is the correct term and the other has been removed. So which is the officially correct term?

[brothernumber9]

San Shou is on a lei tai, San Da is in a ring.

[xcakid]

San Shou = Free Hand
San Da = Free Fighting

Sanshou is the technique used in Sanda. However here in the US the meaning has become interchangeable.

[David Jamieson]

they are basically interchangable at this point.

but:

sanshou is the official sport name for chinese kickboxing internationally.

sanda is what free form has been called in kungfu forever.
It's using the style you have learned in an unchoreographed way and using contact with an opponent who is doing same.

sanshou has a definite rule set, sanda rules are determined in the school by the teacher.

[cerebus]

When I first competed in it, back in the early '90s, the term used was Sanda. Eventually he term came to be Sanshou. Then it evolved that the old term Sanda was used for amateur and the new term Sanshou was for professional matches (don't know how they're being used now).

Both types of matches are conducted in rings, and sometimes just on standard padded floor mats. The matches held on the platform are simply referred to as "Lei Tai".

[WinterPalm]

The main difference in competitive form that I've seen is that San Shou is open mat and no knees...San Da is knees in a ring...aside from the translation.

[SAAMAG]

I just had a small convo about this in the wing chun thread....a short read on the american wushu site says that it was Sanda, but they changed it officially to Sanshou because it didn't sound as brutal or violent or something like that.

So Sanshou officially.

[cerebus]

The main difference in competitive form that I've seen is that San Shou is open mat and no knees...San Da is knees in a ring...aside from the translation.

Not necessarily. Many (in fact, most) Sanshou matches in the U.S. take place in a ring. The only thing that determines whether matches are in a ring or on open mats is simply what the tournament promoters have available to them. Same thing with whether or not knees are allowed. Sometimes they are, sometimes not.

I've fought in "San da" matches in Europe and "Lei Tai" matches here in the U.S. as well as having watched loads of San da, Sanshou and Lei Tai matches from all over. The rules are generally similar/ almost identical for San da and Sanshou. The Lei Tai matches sponsored by the USKSF and the IKSF are quite different though (small, open-finger gloves, face-cage headgear, no foot or shin pads allowed, knee and elbows strikes are allowed).

[GeneChing]

Sanshou was originally promoted by the IWuF as Sanshou. It kept that title for about 20 years (note that Sanshou as a sport is only 30 years old). Then there was this movement to change the name to Sanda. The reasoning was that shou means hand which implied more na (as in qinna) so it should be switched to da meaning hit. Sanda would contain ti da shuai (kick, punch, throw) but not na. Of course, the world was already 20 years into calling it sanshou, so the name change didn't go over so well. I remember having this conversation with Martha Burr, our former editor, about it. She had been on this campaign to teach America the word sanshou, so when they tried to change it, she was livid. Officially speaking, the IWuF (http://www.iwuf.org/) uses Sanshou now. In casual conversation, many will use the term sanda. The two terms are really interchangeable at this point.

For more on this, check out 30 Years of Sanshou: A Conversation with Chinese National Champion Zhou Lizhong By Emilio Alpanseque in our 2010 January/February issue (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=862).

[lkfmdc]

for a while the IWUF was using SAN DA, now it's back to san SHOU? Well, it is the IWUF :rolleyes:

[WinterPalm]

Not necessarily. Many (in fact, most) Sanshou matches in the U.S. take place in a ring. The only thing that determines whether matches are in a ring or on open mats is simply what the tournament promoters have available to them. Same thing with whether or not knees are allowed. Sometimes they are, sometimes not.

I've fought in "San da" matches in Europe and "Lei Tai" matches here in the U.S. as well as having watched loads of San da, Sanshou and Lei Tai matches from all over. The rules are generally similar/ almost identical for San da and Sanshou. The Lei Tai matches sponsored by the USKSF and the IKSF are quite different though (small, open-finger gloves, face-cage headgear, no foot or shin pads allowed, knee and elbows strikes are allowed).

Thanks for the clarification. That was my understanding of it...I guess it's just whatever the heck you want to call it then...

[MasterKiller]

MMA has pretty well failed the Chinese market just as badly as san shou/da has failed the American market.


Yeah, you don't get out much, huh?

http://www.artofwarfc.cn/

http://www.mmachina.com/

[B.Tunks]

It was (and still is) called sanda colloquially in China, before becoming officially known as sanshou at the amatuer level, but has always been officially known as sanda at the pro level (eg. Sanda Wang). Recently there has been some reversion to officially calling it sanda at the amatuer level. Even when it was 'officially' called sanshou, the name was not widely used below the provincial level, even though it was always promoted internationally as that.

[WinterPalm]

As an aside, what are the places in China worth looking into for visiting to train in Sanda?

[pazman]

Winter Palm,

I recommend you look into the Sports Universities, with the Beijing Sports University and the Wuhan Institute of Physical Education being good recommendations. These are the places where Sanda started, and you are likely to find the prices affordable.

There are a host of private schools and gyms, especially around Dengfeng, that say they offer Sanda but don't bother with these. The training is extremely sub-par and not worth your time. Tagou, in Dengfeng, is regarded as a very good school for Sanda, but I cannot recommend it for foreigners, due to the prices.

BIAS ALERT: I train the Wuhan sports school. The prices are fair, the training is good, the facilities...um, just so-so, the administrative people are easy to deal with. If you are looking for full-time training for a month or two, its not bad.

[pazman]

Oh, and on the Sanda vs Sanshou thing:

Sanda is the term most used but San Shou is used interchangeably by people in the know. Many students like to use the term San Shou because it sounds "nicer" and less brutal.

[SteveLau]

San Shou = Free Hand
San Da = Free Fighting

Sanshou is the technique used in Sanda. However here in the US the meaning has become interchangeable. by xcakid


Yep, it is still true to me that Sanda refers to the form for Chinese martial art free fight.



David Jamieson they are basically interchangable at this point.

but:

sanshou is the official sport name for chinese kickboxing internationally.

sanda is what free form has been called in kungfu forever.
It's using the style you have learned in an unchoreographed way and using contact with an opponent who is doing same.

sanshou has a definite rule set, sanda rules are determined in the school by the teacher.

[SteveLau]

San Shou = Free Hand
San Da = Free Fighting

Sanshou is the technique used in Sanda. However here in the US the meaning has become interchangeable. - xcakid


Yep, it is still true to me that Sanda refers to the form for Chinese martial art free fight training and contest. And Sanshou is the technique used.



sanshou is the official sport name for chinese kickboxing internationally.
sanshou has a definite rule set, sanda rules are determined in the school by the teacher. - David Jamieson


I am not sure of that. Sometimes things will get confused after a while, when two terms are used interchangeably.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Eddie]

I also trained at Wuhan sport uni. Pazman, perhaps we know each other.
Sanda and San shou is the same thing. I did an official coaches course through the IWUF at WIPE two years go, and the official name is san shou, although everyone refer to it as san da.

I'll go check through my notes - we had a cool write up about it.

Happy new year

新年快乐， 恭喜发财

[WinterPalm]

Wuhan Sport University, eh? I'll look into it...or do you have any contacts? I'm interested in any info you can provide on this...what is the training like?
Thanks.

[Eddie]

email me at technomantizzz@gmail.com or mantizzz@hotmail.com and I can put you in touch with the schools admissions person.

Wuhan TiYuan and Beiing Sports uni were the two original San Da schools who held the first san da tournament in 1958 (I think)

[jungle-mania]

Thanks for all the reply, i appreciate it. I apologise for the lack of response on my side, been busy with dragon and lion dance for CNY. I think I will go along with whatever the crowd i am in with. So annoyingly confusing.

[pazman]

Winterpalm, sorry, didn't see your reply.

There are several different groups to train with at the sports school here in Wuhan. I train with the "professional" team, though I am certainly not a professional player. If you have previous experience with sanda, full-contact kickboxing (muay thai, etc), or wrestling, this is the program you will want to do. If not, well, this program will certainly not hold your hand as you get accustomed to the training. The training is full-time, about 5 to 6 hours in a day, with Sunday as a holiday. Saturday afternoon you also "take a break" by playing soccer for a few hours. The conditioning and weight lifting sessions are awesome. The facilities are a little dirty and worn by Western standards, but never a problem. The leitai is actually really nice.

The training itself, though hard, is really fun. Most of the people there have a good attitude. Training sessions tend to focus on one skill set at a time.....boxing, kickboxing, wrestling from the clinch, take downs, or catches. There is ample sparring. Saturday morning are dedicated to mini "matches" on the leitai and they offer you a chance to go full-out, full contact. If you are interested in competing, these are good experience.

There is also the standard school program, and also a sanda club, which might be cheaper, more casual, and better for complete beginners. Ask the administration, I'm sure they can help you.

[WinterPalm]

Winterpalm, sorry, didn't see your reply.

There are several different groups to train with at the sports school here in Wuhan. I train with the "professional" team, though I am certainly not a professional player. If you have previous experience with sanda, full-contact kickboxing (muay thai, etc), or wrestling, this is the program you will want to do. If not, well, this program will certainly not hold your hand as you get accustomed to the training. The training is full-time, about 5 to 6 hours in a day, with Sunday as a holiday. Saturday afternoon you also "take a break" by playing soccer for a few hours. The conditioning and weight lifting sessions are awesome. The facilities are a little dirty and worn by Western standards, but never a problem. The leitai is actually really nice.

The training itself, though hard, is really fun. Most of the people there have a good attitude. Training sessions tend to focus on one skill set at a time.....boxing, kickboxing, wrestling from the clinch, take downs, or catches. There is ample sparring. Saturday morning are dedicated to mini "matches" on the leitai and they offer you a chance to go full-out, full contact. If you are interested in competing, these are good experience.

There is also the standard school program, and also a sanda club, which might be cheaper, more casual, and better for complete beginners. Ask the administration, I'm sure they can help you.

The professional program sounds like something I would like to do if I go there for a bit....thanks!

[kfson]

Wikipedia says "The emphasis of Sanshou is on realistic fighting ability."

What the heck is the rest of the martial arts emphasizing?

[David Jamieson]

Wikipedia says "The emphasis of Sanshou is on realistic fighting ability."

What the heck is the rest of the martial arts emphasizing?

well conditioning is supplemental and develops attributes that enable you to endure.

qigong is work as well within many a martial system.

sanshou is strictly about the fighting and leaves all that stuff out. straight up chinese kickboxing really.

some styles emphasize more yin activities, others more yang, some have balance.

sanshou is definitely a yang thing. :)

[kfson]

well conditioning is supplemental and develops attributes that enable you to endure.

qigong is work as well within many a martial system.

sanshou is strictly about the fighting and leaves all that stuff out. straight up chinese kickboxing really.

some styles emphasize more yin activities, others more yang, some have balance.

sanshou is definitely a yang thing. :)

"straight up"?

[David Jamieson]

"straight up"?

straight forward, kick/punch/throw using exercises that develop attributes to that end and spending most of your time doing focus drills and working with others, no sets, no qigongs, no incense, no altars, no couplets, no history lesson, no tedious formalities etc etc.

Like a burger without all the toppings. :p

[bawang]

What the heck is the rest of the martial arts emphasizing?

how to make lots of monehs

[xcakid]

Wikipedia says "The emphasis of Sanshou is on realistic fighting ability."

What the heck is the rest of the martial arts emphasizing?

Well fighting is only one aspect of the Martial Arts. Qi Gong is another aspect of it. History and Tradition is another. Forms practice is another. Physical fitness is another. Mental health is another. Competition is another, be it forms or reactionary. Development and teaching is another.......it goes on and on and on You get the idea right???

That is the beauty of martial arts, so many different facets. Don't be short sighted and think its only for fighting. Unless of course you are one of them macho - full of bravado - will kick anyone's a$$ - nothing better than ground and pound - end all be all MMA guy.

[kfson]

end all be all MMA guy.

Ha, not quite. I'm just looking to see if I'm missing something really important, who knows.

[YouKnowWho]

Kung Fu Sanda Sanshou - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l71pjVU4II)

The Sanda/Sanshou training has the following advantages:

- It's a stand up MMA and has kick, punch, throw. If you add BJJ, you will have everything that you need.
- Your coach will teach you how to integrate kick, punch, and throw. You don't have to figure that out all by yourself.
- You don't have to waste time in form and weapon training. You can devote all your time in combat training.
- You can learn more complete kick, punch, throw skills than any single TCMA system that can offer you.
- You will have a globel view toward combat. You will never say, "My style doesn't do this", or "This is against my style principle".
- You don't have to worry about issues such as "Is this really Sanda/Sanshou?" or "What's the ancient Sanda/Sanshou DNA?"

I believe Sanda/Sanshou is the future for TCMA. For stand up game, what more do you want to learn?

Your thought?

[jimbob]

I agree with everything you say.

I do think that some people see kungfu or TCMA as more than sports - which would still make the traditional systems relevant for those people - but yes - if martial combat is your thing then sanda or mma will probably best serve most people's needs.

[mawali]

For the multitude, sanda/sanshou is reality training and it serves as a template for 'efficient movement and utility'.:confused:

[Neeros]

Yes because kung fu footwork is inferior for creating good timing/spacing/and power, and the sophisticated techniques irrelevant, safe coverage and entry is not important it is ok to let yourself get hit multiple times, and kickboxing with throws is the supreme way of movement and is what everything reverts to anyway so why not just train that and call it kung fu?

[mickey]

Greeting,


"If you add BJJ.." makes Sanda flawed from the start.

And since you mention "game" that means sport. Sport is the kiss of death for TCMA. I respect the conditioning/training. That is it. TCMA was never sport for me.

The only way I could stomach watching Sanda is if they had three to five 15 second rounds, with three round shutouts. That way the guys would have to keep it real and KEEP IT REAL.

The best fighting rules template were those put out by the Eastern US Kung Fu Federation for the Fu Jow Pai Full Contact Tournaments back in the '70's.


mickey

[MightyB]

Kung Fu Sanda Sanshou - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l71pjVU4II)

The Sanda/Sanshou training has the following advantages:

- It's a stand up MMA and has kick, punch, throw. If you add BJJ, you will have everything that you need.
- Your coach will teach you how to integrate kick, punch, and throw. You don't have to figure that out all by yourself.
- You don't have to waste time in form and weapon training. You can devote all your time in combat training.
- You can learn more complete kick, punch, throw skills than any single TCMA system that can offer you.
- You will have a globel view toward combat. You will never say, "My style doesn't do this", or "This is against my style principle".
- You don't have to worry about issues such as "Is this really Sanda/Sanshou?" or "What's the ancient Sanda/Sanshou DNA?"

I believe Sanda/Sanshou is the future for TCMA. For stand up game, what more do you want to learn?

Your thought?

I believe that through realistic combat practice such as Sanda/Sanshou is the only way that a person can develop their true potential as a martial artist.

Everything else is just martial masturbation. It feels good, the mechanics are sort of there, but you're never quite sure how well you'll do when it's for real.

[lkfmdc]

The best fighting rules template were those put out by the Eastern US Kung Fu Federation for the Fu Jow Pai Full Contact Tournaments back in the '70's.




were you actually there for any of them? They were basicallly WKA leg kick rules without clinch or throws....

[mickey]

Hi lkfmdc,

I had the rules for the tournament in 1976. It allowed for punching, kicking, locking, limited ground technique (digong), and, I think, throws. The rules may have changed later on to the way you described. My elder kung fu sister attended the event. She shared that the White Crane guys had no difficulty adapting and were quite formidable.

mickey

[lkfmdc]

Hi lkfmdc,

I had the rules for the tournament in 1976. It allowed for punching, kicking, locking, limited ground technique (digong), and, I think, throws. The rules may have changed later on to the way you described. My elder kung fu sister attended the event. She shared that the White Crane guys had no difficulty adapting and were quite formidable.

mickey

They wore boxing gloves, so even if the rules allowed locking, how the hell did they do it?

and NO THROWS

[mickey]

"They wore boxing gloves, so even if the rules allowed locking, how the hell did they do it?"

That is a question. I don't know. I think the locking allowance was to appease Eagle Claw practitioners -- a point was awarded for a successful locking technique.

Still the rules are a good template to build upon for free fighting competition, regardless of how it was applied in the past.

I would still prefer 15 second rounds.


mickey

[lkfmdc]

That is a question. I don't know.



it was rhetorical, you can't "lock" with boxing gloves on, and they never had any clinching or throws, which hardly makes it "real"

[mickey]

Well,

Their rules did "allow" for that.

I still think those rules can be built upon. Add clinching. Add throwing. Add knees and elbows. We need to take our own direction in determining how we preserve our fighting traditions instead of simply following what has been established for us. I think we would be better respected for it.

Shorted round would radically change the nature of the sport combatives to something that is more aligned with fighting traditions. There would be less of a game and more of a fight.

mickey

[Syn7]

safe coverage and entry is not important it is ok to let yourself get hit multiple times

Really? Have you ever walked into a right cross from a competent puncher? That **** will drop you!

I'm not saying you have to learn intricate bridging techniques to be successful, but you atleast need to know how to slip a punch, use hip and head movement with footwork and so on. Especially when kick boxing.

or were you being sarcastic? Can't tell. Got a lil lost in the run on.

[Kellen Bassette]

Yes because kung fu footwork is inferior for creating good timing/spacing/and power, and the sophisticated techniques irrelevant, safe coverage and entry is not important it is ok to let yourself get hit multiple times, and kickboxing with throws is the supreme way of movement and is what everything reverts to anyway so why not just train that and call it kung fu?

Why can't you use Kung Fu footwork in Sanda?

Getting hit is a reality in fighting. That's why old Kung Fu trained Iron Shirt.

[xinyidizi]

Modern legal sanda is certainly not the future of TCMA. The best type of rules for TCMA are those of some underground fights in China. That's where some TCMA stylists have also shined but the thing about underground fighting is that it has to remain underground so for those who think they can know everything about kungfu by watching youtube good luck finding any videos online.

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx7oPZ-Cetg

kung fu shud b like dis

[YouKnowWho]

When you train Sanda, you don't have to worry about the following:

- My style doesn't do this.
- This is against my style principle.
- Is this really Sanda?
- What's the ancient Sanda DNA?
- What "engine" do you use in Sanda?

Is this kind of view good or bad for TCMA? What's your opinion on this?

[lkfmdc]

Modern legal sanda is certainly not the future of TCMA.


no, clearly the future of CMA is pretty forms, tin foil weapons, shaolin monks and chi blasts




The best type of rules for TCMA are those of some underground fights in China. That's where some TCMA stylists have also shined but the thing about underground fighting is that it has to remain underground so for those who think they can know everything about kungfu by watching youtube good luck finding any videos online.

ah, yes, of course, the real is a hidden secret that no one can every really see

[YouKnowWho]

Can this be the future of TCMA?

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/mwcgHdu17AY

[Syn7]

TCMA is many things to many people. I'm sure we will continue to see manifestations all across the spectrum. Unfortunately, that is one of them.

[xinyidizi]

no, clearly the future of CMA is pretty forms, tin foil weapons, shaolin monks and chi blasts



ah, yes, of course, the real is a hidden secret that no one can every really see

I don't know why you want to make it mysitical. Underground fights exist in China and many other countries. In China Sanda and some TCMA fighters both participate, the rules are looser than mma and they don't use gloves. They can't put the videos online because of china's strict laws.

[MightyB]

I don't know why you want to make it mysitical. Underground fights exist in China and many other countries. In China Sanda and some TCMA fighters both participate, the rules are looser than mma and they don't use gloves. They can't put the videos online because of china's strict laws.

Question: Why the heck if you were any good would you fight in an underground match for nothing but an ego trip against a bunch of no name losers when there's real money to be made in the sanctioned legal stuff?

[lkfmdc]

the last great underground fight to get caught on film

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMsL5104RFg

[xinyidizi]

Question: Why the heck if you were any good would you fight in an underground match for nothing but an ego trip against a bunch of no name losers when there's real money to be made in the sanctioned legal stuff?

How much money do you think your average fighter can make in China? There is more money in Heiquan.

[lkfmdc]

hundreds of thousands of fights that are actually on film that can be viewed, yet there is no "real kung fu" on them... the only "the real" kung fu is in underground matches you can't watch :rolleyes:

[lkfmdc]

Tiequan Zhang fought in the UFC and made more money doing that than 95% of China has ever seen

[xinyidizi]

The question is how many Chinese people you think can make it to the UFC. The market is not there yet to focus on producing such athletes and many things are still at amateur level. Anyway in my first post I said the best rules for kungfu people and was not talking about any personal macho agendas. I respect your opinion if you think UFC has better rules for TCMA practitioners.

[Shǎguā]

15 seconds per round is absolutely stupid. If both fighters are seasoned, nothing will come of it.

The only way 15 second rounds would produce decisive winners is if one or both of the fighters were complete noobs.

[bawang]

Can this be the future of TCMA?

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/mwcgHdu17AY

LOL

jgjghjg

[mickey]

Greetings,

Shagua,

If you need three minutes to do your thing on the street, you are dead meat, conditioning or no conditioning.

I see more concerns about the sporting aspect and the money that can be made from it. I am not interested in that.


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

I would still prefer 15 second rounds.
I like 15 seconds game too. You can do a lot in 15 seconds. The following clip is the first 15 seconds of the fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAsoz25pIq0&feature=youtu.be

If you only have 15 second, it will force you to move and not "wait". It may not work for Taiji fighters. They believe in "if you don't move, I don't move ..."

[mickey]

Yes YKW,

It forces the fighters to bring forth their best immediately. I think it would result in some very aggressive fighting.


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

In the following clip, the guy took his opponent down within 6 seconds. If you understand Chinese, you can hear my teacher said, "Ai, right, look at this, how nice, how nice." My teacher didn't give compliment to people very often.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2lfieyCgMs&feature=youtu.be

[mickey]

Greetings,

The execution is a good one.

mickey

[Hebrew Hammer]

Kung Fu Sanda Sanshou - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l71pjVU4II)

The Sanda/Sanshou training has the following advantages:

- It's a stand up MMA and has kick, punch, throw. If you add BJJ, you will have everything that you need.
- Your coach will teach you how to integrate kick, punch, and throw. You don't have to figure that out all by yourself.
- You don't have to waste time in form and weapon training. You can devote all your time in combat training.
- You can learn more complete kick, punch, throw skills than any single TCMA system that can offer you.
- You will have a globel view toward combat. You will never say, "My style doesn't do this", or "This is against my style principle".
- You don't have to worry about issues such as "Is this really Sanda/Sanshou?" or "What's the ancient Sanda/Sanshou DNA?"

I believe Sanda/Sanshou is the future for TCMA. For stand up game, what more do you want to learn?

Your thought?

First of all, who's worried? Second, I don't think so, Sanda/Sanshou has been around for a decades and it's no where near as well known or popular as MMA, Muy Thai, or BJJ. I have seen some great Sanda/Sanshou fighters competing in K-1/Muy Thai and other striking tournaments and doing quite well. There's a couple of things wrong with your preposition, you're comparing sports oriented martial arts to TCMA...the opposite of your argument would be if BJJ only had sanda/sanshou and weapons it would be the complete style and the future of BJJ.

It's just more the same argument with MMA being the modern standard and all other arts being inferior...martial insecurity. TCMA has its own versions of grappling with Chinese wrestling and Chin Na and if you actually combine those with regular Sanda/Sanshou work you're going to do well. When I studied CLF our school taught both Sanshou and Chin Na on Saturdays as part of our Choy Lee Fut curriculum. For me that was breadth and marvel of TCMA...that there was soo much to learn and practice add in Chi Kung and weapons, you're gonna be training for hours every day.

Weapons training is NOT a waste of time, its actually one of the more appealing parts of Traditional Martial Arts and it IS COMBAT TRAINING. That's where it originated from. Maybe you've never been in combat or been assaulted with bottles, knives, bats, clubs, bricks, chairs...just saying. Your style may or may not include various 'modern' weapons...

Lastly form is always important whether you're doing boxing, Kung Fu, MMA...in MMA they call it being a good technical striker/fighter. You will do drills and drills and drills in any legitimate martial pursuit.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx7oPZ-Cetg

kung fu shud b like dis

I'm disappointed Bawang, I honestly expected more nudity.

[YouKnowWho]

TCMA has its own versions of grappling with Chinese wrestling and Chin Na and if you actually combine those with regular Sanda/Sanshou work you're going to do well.

What kind of Sanda/Sanshou do you think that I'm talking about here? All my Sanda/Sanshou guys know nothing about boxing, MT, wrestling. Their Sanda/Sanshou came from 100% TCMA training.

[Hebrew Hammer]

Well the Sanda/Sanshou I'm thinking of usually involves boxing gloves, satin shorts, athletic cups, mouth pieces and a ref. There are timed rounds in which fighters kick, punch, trip and throw their opponents to the ground but then let them up.

If I understand your point is that BJJ is needed to finish them or make it a complete art, no? I'm saying that TCMA, Chinese Wrestling/Chin Na and or Sanda/Sanshou is just fine you can continue to apply strikes, chokes, arm bars, knee bars, or joint locks to finish the fight or be competent on the ground with out BJJ. Just my opinion.

Ground fighting has not been apart of any Sanda/Sanshou that I've seen. My viewing has been limited. Am I off the mark?

[bawang]

I think bjj is good but kung fu people need to learn wrestling first.

[mawali]

I like 15 seconds game too. You can do a lot in 15 seconds. The following clip is the first 15 seconds of the fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAsoz25pIq0&feature=youtu.be

If you only have 15 second, it will force you to move and not "wait". It may not work for Taiji fighters. They believe in "if you don't move, I don't move ..."

That is how it should be!

[YouKnowWho]

Ground fighting has not been apart of any Sanda/Sanshou that I've seen. My viewing has been limited. Am I off the mark?
I'm talking about more than just Sanda/Sahshou. If you throw your opponent down, you will need either "follow on strike"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33mIS2ctC_w&feature=youtu.be

or "ground skill" to finish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXNgA1tQlfw&feature=youtu.be

Both are not allowed in the Sanda/Sanshou game rules.

[bawang]

That is how it should be!

that video shows everything thats wrong wit sanda.

sanda try to imitate westerners but never get the essence.

[lance]

I like 15 seconds game too. You can do a lot in 15 seconds. The following clip is the first 15 seconds of the fight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAsoz25pIq0&feature=youtu.be

If you only have 15 second, it will force you to move and not "wait". It may not work for Taiji fighters. They believe in "if you don't move, I don't move ..."

YouKnowWho , Just move in on your opponent the minute you have the chance and just finish your opponent off . No , tai chi would ' nt work , but the results you get from tai chi training , should you give you the potential and ability to overcome your opponent . But it ' s a challenge between you and your opponent , well , may the best man win .