Stand your ground

[Yum Cha]

This seems to be rather topical these days. I know we have American, Canadian, English and Australian folks here, we all live under the principles of English Common Law, and how its evolved in each country.

In Australia, the principle of self defence is that you can appropriate force to stop the attack, but you can't continue on, pursue or otherwise beat the sh1t out of someone.
As soon as they cease their attack, you must too. You must be attacked first.
Its dumb. And often results in people who were the victims being charged. You have no special rights if the incident happens in your bedroom, or on the street.

Not sure, but the UK had a similar interpretation, until recently where they introduced some 'stand your ground' type language, where you were allowed to respond 'if you felt threatened' without having to wait to be attacked. That was in the news last year?

What is the situation in the states with this Florida 'stand your ground' law everybody is talking about? And I'm sure it applies to hand to hand as well as guns, in principle?

[mawali]

"Stand Your Ground" is Strategy, the Art of Corporate Takeover (seems odd, isn't it) where corporations fight for ownership of USA and allow the citizens to fight for the scraps!

"Stand you ground" usually implies you do not have to run from anything or anyone as long as you have a gun but that works 2 ways but in USA this is just a legalized method of Civil Way bushwacking where citizens (at least those with priviledge) were allowed, or got away with shooting someone while they were unarmed, or in the back just because....they could. So legalized bushwacking is coming back with a vengeance.
When Ronald Reagan put down stood up to the Air Traffic controllers back then, the corporations decided that they could change policy and usurp any organization that used Unions as bargaining tools for the betterment of the AMerican worker. "Stand You Ground" ain't about guns but a nefarious policy of corporate takeover. Find a wedge issue to rile up the people, use it to an advantage and hit the ground running to sow division. It is working and has been for some time:D

[SavvySavage]

"Stand Your Ground" is Strategy, the Art of Corporate Takeover (seems odd, isn't it) where corporations fight for ownership of USA and allow the citizens to fight for the scraps!

"Stand you ground" usually implies you do not have to run from anything or anyone as long as you have a gun but that works 2 ways but in USA this is just a legalized method of Civil Way bushwacking where citizens (at least those with priviledge) were allowed, or got away with shooting someone while they were unarmed, or in the back just because....they could. So legalized bushwacking is coming back with a vengeance.
When Ronald Reagan put down stood up to the Air Traffic controllers back then, the corporations decided that they could change policy and usurp any organization that used Unions as bargaining tools for the betterment of the AMerican worker. "Stand You Ground" ain't about guns but a nefarious policy of corporate takeover. Find a wedge issue to rile up the people, use it to an advantage and hit the ground running to sow division. It is working and has been for some time:D


Relax with your conspiracies. Stand your ground is to protect nice neighborhoods against ghetto people that don't belong there. If you don't pay rent and live in a nice apartment complex you don't have the right to walk through there or loiter there. The law is in place in Florida because there are A LOT of break ins and robberies.


Trayvon Martin was a football player and was huge. He had been suspended from school for drug possession and had weed in his system at the time of the shooting. The media tried to keep all of this a secret and also kept circulating pictures of him when he was 10 years old making him look small and innocent. In reality he beat the crap out of Zimmerman. The prosecutor lost the case against Zimmerman because HE DIDNT HAVE A CASE. It was self defense.



This has nothing to do with race. The same exact situation happened in Florida where a black(stand your ground person) was armed and approached a white man that didnt belong. The white man proceeded to beat the crap out of the black guy and the black guy shot him and killed him. Nobody heads about this because it didnt play into the "white people are holding black people down" narrative that was being portrayed in the media.

Nobody is hearing about all the rioting that is going on in Manhattan either in reaction to the Trayvon verdict. Black people are rioting like mad in NYC and the media won't report it. What a joke.

[Yum Cha]

Guys, if you wanna go all zimmerman and martin on each other feel free, but how does this apply to the rest of us, armed or hand-to-hand and the threats we could face?

And maybe even why or what are the implications? The burdens as a 'trained' fighter? Is it like being armed? In Aus, that's the deal: 'responding with reasonable force' applies to trained fighters, and security, like door men and bodyguards. It makes the assumption you have an advantage.

Wikipedia:

"A stand-your-ground law is a type of self-defense law that gives individuals the right to use reasonable force to defend themselves without any requirement to evade or retreat from a dangerous situation. It is law in certain jurisdictions within the United States. The basis may lie in either statutory law and or common law precedents. One key distinction is whether the concept only applies to defending a home or vehicle, or whether it applies to all lawfully occupied locations."

To me, it reads you don't have to run if you can.
And the second point is, not just in your home or car, but anywhere.

So, somewhere there must be a burden of proof of aggression?
Somewhere in there is the issue of "feeling" threatened vs 'being' threatened?

I mean, say, you put up your dukes in defence of an aggressive lout, so he feels threatened and pulls a gun "standing his ground?". Now the serve is back to you on standing your ground?....Nobody's touched nobody yet. You know the deal, if you're close and someone pulls a weapon, you go lethal yourself... Isn't even brandishing a holstered weapon a threat? Who was doing what? What is a defensive posture, vs what is an offensive threatening posture?
Take away defending your home (and property if you must) and it gets pretty ambiguous...

[SavvySavage]

Guys, if you wanna go all zimmerman and martin on each other feel free, but how does this apply to the rest of us, armed or hand-to-hand and the threats we could face?

And maybe even why or what are the implications? The burdens as a 'trained' fighter? Is it like being armed? In Aus, that's the deal: 'responding with reasonable force' applies to trained fighters, and security, like door men and bodyguards. It makes the assumption you have an advantage.

Wikipedia:

"A stand-your-ground law is a type of self-defense law that gives individuals the right to use reasonable force to defend themselves without any requirement to evade or retreat from a dangerous situation. It is law in certain jurisdictions within the United States. The basis may lie in either statutory law and or common law precedents. One key distinction is whether the concept only applies to defending a home or vehicle, or whether it applies to all lawfully occupied locations."

To me, it reads you don't have to run if you can.
And the second point is, not just in your home or car, but anywhere.

So, somewhere there must be a burden of proof of aggression?
Somewhere in there is the issue of "feeling" threatened vs 'being' threatened?

I mean, say, you put up your dukes in defence of an aggressive lout, so he feels threatened and pulls a gun "standing his ground?". Now the serve is back to you on standing your ground?....Nobody's touched nobody yet. You know the deal, if you're close and someone pulls a weapon, you go lethal yourself... Isn't even brandishing a holstered weapon a threat? Who was doing what? What is a defensive posture, vs what is an offensive threatening posture?
Take away defending your home (and property if you must) and it gets pretty ambiguous...

It's a good idea for the stand your ground guys to have to call the cops anytime they make an approach.

The person who is walking through the neighborhood needs to prove he lives there. Obviously the streets are free to walk but not apartment complexes. So the burden is on the person being approached by the guards.

Karate blackbelts used to have to register their hands as deadly which was so lame. I don't think you should have to tell anyone what you do. Just because you study marital arts or mma doesn't mean anything. Any old joe can commit a robbery or hurt someone in a fight. Martial arts training is irrelevant IMO.

[SavvySavage]

This thread isn't going to last long. Too many people get offended or are in denial of the truth. Good bye thread.

[bawang]

Guys, if you wanna go all zimmerman and martin on each other feel free, but how does this apply to the rest of us, armed or hand-to-hand and the threats we could face?


it doesn't apply to me, im not black.

[SavvySavage]

it doesn't apply to me, im not black.

I'm black from the waist down so it applies to me.

[bawang]

I'm black from the waist down so it applies to me.

then you only get beat from the waist down, you are very lucky.

[Yum Cha]

So, Savvy, are you saying "Stand your ground guys" are guys out standing their ground before there is a threat, in a pre-emptive manner?

Those are guards mate, what rules to guards operate under?

[SteveLau]

In our local law, even the guy in front of us has made a threat to attack me, it is sufficient ground for me to carry out self-defense. Because a threat to attack is still regarded as an physical attack. The same reasoning applies to the guy pointing a loaded gun at me. He has committed a felony already.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[SavvySavage]

So, Savvy, are you saying "Stand your ground guys" are guys out standing their ground before there is a threat, in a pre-emptive manner?

Those are guards mate, what rules to guards operate under?

The law and its stipulations are what the "guards" go by. I'm not saying I agree 100% but that's why here in the States there is federal law and state law. Federal law is the law of the land but states make their own laws based on their needs and within the federal laws. The citizens of Florida felt they needed this law because that is the culture over there. Just like New York voted to legalize gay marriage...but California didnt want gay marriage to be legal whichc was surprising. If there was something wrong worth the law the federal goverent would have struck it down. Maybe they will try to after the outcome of this case.

This just goes to show that you can't fuk around when you leave the nest. If I came to Australia I wouldn't start damaging parked cars for fun. Yokgifus might flog me like they do to people in Singapore.

[mickey]

Greetings,


"Relax with your conspiracies. Stand your ground is to protect nice neighborhoods against ghetto people that don't belong there. If you don't pay rent and live in a nice apartment complex you don't have the right to walk through there or loiter there."

The above statement, though a facet of a fundamental ill, is really what is wrong with this country. There are just too many fukked up people wearing this hat.

There is a healthy component to stand your ground. It empowers the American people to uphold the sacred freedoms of this country against the actions that are being implemented to keep us in check.


mickey

[mickey]

Greetings,

I forgot to add that there have been NO riots in the streets of NYC after the Zimmerman verdict. There have been peaceful demonstrations. I guess, to the xenophobic, this might be observed to be quite riotous.

And the demonstrations were constituted of a healthy cultural diversity of people. Maybe that is why it was kept local because it also showed people, who live in nice apartments, in nice areas, who were upset with the verdict.

mickey

[Kymus]

In regards to the Zimmerman case, the "Stand Your Ground" law had nothing to do with it (http://reason.com/blog/2013/07/14/sorry-the-zimmerman-case-still-has-nothi). I think it's important to get that out there.

In regards to your question, Yum Cha, US law says, if I understand it correctly, that if you feel that your life is in danger, you may use deadly force if needed. Now of course, that can be a difficult decision and you may end up in court over it later, anyway (and when I mention this, I'm not talking about the Zimmerman case).

Florida's Stand Your Ground law says that you can use deadly force even if retreat is an option. Previously, this was only allowed if retreat was not an option.

[lkfmdc]

I have a friend who I have known forever and who I consider (ed?) very close until yesterday when I heard his views on the Zimmerman case.... it is relevant because his position was what I would call "legaleeze".... based upon narrow definitions and/or interpretations of the law, and the outcome of the trial he argued that Zimmerman was "innocent"

The "stand your ground" law had NOTHIGN to do with the case or the outcome. Nor, I can safely say, did "common sense"... it was a purely legal manipulation type of thing... a sad statement on the court system if you ask me

[SavvySavage]

The truth is only two people know what really happened and only one of them is talking. The rest of us can only speculate.

[SavvySavage]

Greetings,

I forgot to add that there have been NO riots in the streets of NYC after the Zimmerman verdict. There have been peaceful demonstrations. I guess, to the xenophobic, this might be observed to be quite riotous.

And the demonstrations were constituted of a healthy cultural diversity of people. Maybe that is why it was kept local because it also showed people, who live in nice apartments, in nice areas, who were upset with the verdict.

mickey

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R1sVZAviU3c

[mickey]

"The truth is only two people know what really happened and only one of them is talking. The rest of us can only speculate."

SavvySavage,

You have absolutely NO high ground to stand on after you initial post on this thread.


mickey

[RickMatz]

The responses time in Detroit by the police is nearly an hour.

You are on your own.

[mickey]

SavvySavage,

I saw your link. That was in Texas.


mickey

[SavvySavage]

SavvySavage,

I saw your link. That was in Texas.


mickey

You're going to cite geographic location to discredit the video? When I have more time ill try I find one in New York. Until then we know that not all the demonstrations have been peaceful.

[SavvySavage]

"The truth is only two people know what really happened and only one of them is talking. The rest of us can only speculate."

SavvySavage,

You have absolutely NO high ground to stand on after you initial post on this thread.


mickey

Get off your high horse. My opinion is shared by many people in America. Just because you don't agree that doesn't make your opinion anymore valid than mine. I call the truth as I see it without feeling any white guilt like you guys.

My mother grew up in Washington DC and was robbed all the time. She got robbed at knife point for candy when she was a kid. When she moved to the suburbs of NY....it all stopped happening magically. There is more gang activity these days but it is still nice in many neighborhoods where I live. I don't live in a politically correct bubble like you. Certain groups commit more crimes than others which is a fact that most people know and think but won't say because people like you will call them racist.

I feel so bad for white people. They have to put up with so much nonesense and always get the shaft.

[mickey]

SavvySavage,

You mentioned NYC.

I LIVE in NYC.

I don't need you to find anything for me. I KNOW things did not JUMP off the way you stated.


mickey

[bawang]

Get off your high horse. My opinion is shared by many people in America. Just because you don't agree that doesn't make your opinion anymore valid than mine. I call the truth as I see it without feeling any white guilt like you guys.

My mother grew up in Washington DC and was robbed all the time. She got robbed at knife point for candy when she was a kid. When she moved to the suburbs of NY....it all stopped happening magically. There is more gang activity these days but it is still nice in many neighborhoods where I live. I don't live in a politically correct bubble like you. Certain groups commit more crimes than others which is a fact that most people know and think but won't say because people like you will call them racist.

I feel so bad for white people. They have to put up with so much nonesense and always get the shaft.

you don't deserve to train kung fu, demon.

[mickey]

SavvySavage,

You and quite a few others in this country are missing out one something with regard to this case. It was hyped up by media and government to help deepen an already incredibly deep social divide in this country, regardless of how the verdict turned out. Done to keep us from looking at the actions of government and their plans to basically fukk us all over. We can only win if we start believing in each other and have a willingness to step forward as a people concerned for a better tomorrow for ALL. As long as there is the "us and them" mentality, we are finished. If I did not have my high horse, I could not see the game being played.

You and a great many others have been PLAYED.


mickey

[pazman]

I feel so bad for white people. They have to put up with so much nonesense and always get the shaft.

http://www.thehighdefinite.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/whitepeopleproblem.png

[TAO YIN]

Stand your ground laws work in favor of pistols, how about blades?

[SavvySavage]

"The truth is only two people know what really happened and only one of them is talking. The rest of us can only speculate."

SavvySavage,

You have absolutely NO high ground to stand on after you initial post on this thread.


mickey


SavvySavage,

You and quite a few others in this country are missing out one something with regard to this case. It was hyped up by media and government to help deepen an already incredibly deep social divide in this country, regardless of how the verdict turned out. Done to keep us from looking at the actions of government and their plans to basically fukk us all over. We can only win if we start believing in each other and have a willingness to step forward as a people concerned for a better tomorrow for ALL. As long as there is the "us and them" mentality, we are finished. If I did not have my high horse, I could not see the game being played.

You and a great many others have been PLAYED.


mickey

You believe in government conspiracy and I believe in consequences for he actions of individuals.

I'll tell you what I see. I see racial tensions that are there because they are there and not because our government is trying to fuk us. There have always been tensions between whites and blacks and there always will be. It's not an us vs them mentality. It's us vs those that seek to hurt us and others. There are plenty of people that don't turn into animals. We are black, white ,asian, whatever. We work hard and don't want to get shafted.

This case was blown up by the Al shartptons and the Jesse Jacksons to incite more rage from the black community so that Al and Hesse can keep getting richer.

Nobody made a big deal out of Trever Dooley, a black man, who shot and killed a white man in Florida claiming defense under the stand your ground law. I had trouble finding this story. Racism?

http://m.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/22/1076889/-Black-Shooter-of-White-Victim-in-Florida-Claimed-Stand-Your-Ground-still-went-to-Court

[mickey]

SavvySavage,

Your initial post perpetuates the us versus them mentality. You just can't see it.

mickey

[mickey]

SavvySavage,

Have you heard about ALEC? The Martin/Zimmerman trial has put them in the spotlight:

http://www.prwatch.org/news/2012/04/11434/police-officer-speaks-alec-and-stand-your-ground

http://www.thenation.com/blog/165077/koch-brothers-alec-and-savage-assault-democracy#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Hmhdv_OSvA

mickey

[SavvySavage]

Mickey

I respectfully disagree. I contend that you are looking too far into this incident. It is only one of many many incidents except this one happened to involve a half white half Hispanic man that the liberal media pegged as white. This is a passionate subject so let's all try to remain respectful of each other's opinions and not attack each other. The case is over and the verdict is in.


Revenge for the OJ verdict! Just kidding.

[mickey]

SavvySavage,

I have been incredibly respectful.

Read about ALEC, please.


mickey

[PalmStriker]

The Police dispatcher in this case did not say " Instigate, proceed with firepower, and stand your ground". :( "Stand Down" just doesn't mean the same thing.

[TAO YIN]

Seriously,

In regards to stand your ground stuff, what are the differences when it comes to knives and pistols? I realize they will differ state to state and country to country, but what goes on with that? Interested.

Tao

[bawang]

one positive thing from this fiasco is it showed groundfighting doesn't work on teh streets

LOL

[David Jamieson]

http://www.thehighdefinite.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/whitepeopleproblem.png

Literally did a spit take on this.
dang you pazman. lol :p

[Yum Cha]

one positive thing from this fiasco is it showed groundfighting doesn't work on teh streets

LOL

:D:D:D Pay the man...

[xcakid]

Bottomline, I don't give a flying f*** what the law says. If someone means me harm or comes into my dwelling uninvited, he or she will have to fight for what they want to take from me. One of us is going to the hospital or the morgue. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

If you guys want to talk about the Martin/Zimmerman case, I have one question? Regardless of the circumtances, you as a person being profiled, do you in your right mind, without having been physically attacked, go ahead and attack another person and bash his head on the concrete??

[lkfmdc]

If someone means me harm or comes into my dwelling uninvited, he or she will have to fight for what they want to take from me. One of us is going to the hospital or the morgue. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.



Yeah, but let us say you are sitting in your locked house, and see someone "suspicious" walking down the street. Do you leave your locked house, get in your car, follow them, and then get out of your locked car to approach them?




If you guys want to talk about the Martin/Zimmerman case, I have one question? Regardless of the circumtances, you as a person being profiled, do you in your right mind, without having been physically attacked, go ahead and attack another person and bash his head on the concrete??

I have a student who teaches my 7 am classes. He arrived one day at 6:30 am, put down his bag and went through it to look for his keys to the front door. He was approached by someone (turned out to be a new neighbor) who confronted him and said "what are you doing here"

My student rightfully said to a person whom he had never seen before, none of your business

The neighbor then reached for his bag , which is his private property. In NYS you have the legal right to use force to defend your property

The landlord walked by, said "hey!" and shooed away the new neighbor, but it had the potential for a beating..... and it would have been the neighbor's fault

[xcakid]

Yeah, but let us say you are sitting in your locked house, and see someone "suspicious" walking down the street. Do you leave your locked house, get in your car, follow them, and then get out of your locked car to approach them?

If I were part of a neighborhood watch, yes. If not, I will probably just make a not of it.




I have a student who teaches my 7 am classes. He arrived one day at 6:30 am, put down his bag and went through it to look for his keys to the front door. He was approached by someone (turned out to be a new neighbor) who confronted him and said "what are you doing here"

My student rightfully said to a person whom he had never seen before, none of your business

The neighbor then reached for his bag , which is his private property. In NYS you have the legal right to use force to defend your property

The landlord walked by, said "hey!" and shooed away the new neighbor, but it had the potential for a beating..... and it would have been the neighbor's fault

If your student identified himself, none of your business is not the proper response. "I work here, can I help you with something" would have been. Being confrontational from the get go only leads to no good. The neighbor was just looking out.

In everything I have read, Zimmerman never once initiated physical contact.

[YouKnowWho]

A: Draw your gun.
B: I don't carry gun.

Is there a US law that you can't shoot someone who is not armed? From all the western movies that I have watched, nobody was shot if he doesn't carry gun.

[lkfmdc]

If your student identified himself, none of your business is not the proper response. "I work here, can I help you with something" would have been. Being confrontational from the get go only leads to no good. The neighbor was just looking out.



We live in a democracy. I don't have to identify and explain myself to random strangers. A police officer, yes, but not a random stranger.



In everything I have read, Zimmerman never once initiated physical contact.

We'll never know exactly what went down, but we do know he followed him in a car and then got out of the car and approached him....

[lkfmdc]

"Community watch" should call the police, not pretend to be one. There is a reason we have TRAINED and uniformed LEO in society....

And I can also guarantee you that in the history of 911 there has never been this call



"Hi, I see this man. He's white, about 55, wearing a suit. He's got a briefcase and he's just standing there on the corner. Yeah, he looks funny to me, that WHITE guy....."

[bawang]

if you don't support trayvon, you don't have wude. we got doods here training kung fu 20+ years and still supporting oppression. you are the bad guy in the kung fu movies.

[mickey]

Greetings,

"we got doods here training kung fu 20+ years and still supporting oppression.

you have failed totally as a human being and martial artist. you are the bad guy,..."

This very much parallels and explains the very slow transmission of the good (advanced) stuff of TCMA in this country. Even in this century, many would still rather die than to see it in the wrong hands.


mickey

[David Jamieson]

if you don't support trayvon, you don't have wude. we got doods here training kung fu 20+ years and still supporting oppression.

that's just racist.

besides, my kung fu usually oppresses the crap out of whoever I use it on.

[mooyingmantis]

Seriously,

In regards to stand your ground stuff, what are the differences when it comes to knives and pistols? I realize they will differ state to state and country to country, but what goes on with that? Interested.

Tao

Concealed carry permits only cover firearms. If you defend yourself with anything but a firearm, you better be in your house. Most states do not allow the carrying of any weapon other than a firearm.

[mooyingmantis]

Zimmerman was not standing his ground. To stand your ground means you have the option of leaving the area before shooting. A football player straddling your chest smacking your head on the ground does not give the option of fleeing rather than shooting.

[bawang]

we must protect our children from these deadly football players

[YouKnowWho]

Stalking someone is not "stand your ground". If we apply that logic then I can stalk anybody, make him mad, throw a punch at me, so I can shot him with a big smile on my face. This way, I can kill anybody that I want too.

A: How many people have you killed today?
B: I only killed 16 today. 2 guys that I stalked, they just ran too fast that I couldn't force them to throw a punch at me.

[lkfmdc]

Stalking someone is not "stand your ground". If we apply that logic then I can stalk anybody, make him mad, throw a punch at me, so I can shot him with a big smile on my face. This way, I can kill anybody that I want too.



and yet that IS what happened in Florida

[Syn7]

Concealed carry permits only cover firearms. If you defend yourself with anything but a firearm, you better be in your house. Most states do not allow the carrying of any weapon other than a firearm.

That's just stupid. Idiot law from idiots. Self defense and guns are not mutually exclusive. If you people want peace, stop pretending to be cops and soldiers.

I still don't understand the whole "gangster angle". The kid looked like he was straight out of a GAP commercial. I see white kids at the yacht club dressed in the same clothes.

[IronWeasel]

Bottomline, I don't give a flying f*** what the law says. If someone means me harm or comes into my dwelling uninvited, he or she will have to fight for what they want to take from me. One of us is going to the hospital or the morgue. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

If you guys want to talk about the Martin/Zimmerman case, I have one question? Regardless of the circumtances, you as a person being profiled, do you in your right mind, without having been physically attacked, go ahead and attack another person and bash his head on the concrete??





....and....Thread. :cool:

[GoldenBrain]

I happened on this video the other day and as tired as I am about this whole Zimmerman topic I still watched it. I'm a glutton for punishment I guess. What surprised me is just how many facts were left out of the mainstream media. I think the local law enforcement made the correct call in releasing Zimmerman at first, and if it weren't for the pressure from the Obama administration this case would never have made it to court. With that said I think Zimmerman could have handled it better by not stalking Trayvon in the first place however with all the stolen gear found in Trayvons school locker and other facts it appears to me that Zimmerman made the correct call to at least be suspicious of him. I don't think race was a motivating factor in this and if you watch the video you'll see that Zimmerman, though a bit of a kook, liked to stand up for people being racially discriminated against.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebu6Yvzs4Ls

[Yum Cha]

Concealed carry permits only cover firearms. If you defend yourself with anything but a firearm, you better be in your house. Most states do not allow the carrying of any weapon other than a firearm.

Are you kidding me? The boogie man threatens you, and you can't punch or stab him 'standing your ground' BUT, you can shoot them?

<facepalm>

So, two guys standing their ground shoot each other, and both end up dead - who wins?


(the rest of us! :D )

[Yum Cha]

Obligatory Boogy Man pic...
Uncle Chop Chop, the man who cut off his own ears.

[mawali]

Bottomline, I don't give a flying f*** what the law says. If someone means me harm or comes into my dwelling uninvited, he or she will have to fight for what they want to take from me. One of us is going to the hospital or the morgue. Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

If you guys want to talk about the Martin/Zimmerman case, I have one question? Regardless of the circumtances, you as a person being profiled, do you in your right mind, without having been physically attacked, go ahead and attack another person and bash his head on the concrete??

Your characterization is amusing:D
Stand your ground is not about being physically attacked. As long as you are in fear of your life by someone following you, then the law appears to be saying you have a right to shoot. )bviously, it works for some people and not for others regarding defense! Self defense requires you to move away from the scene but if there is persistence then one is legally authorized to put down the be-atch!

I doubt TM attacked GZ (obviously I was not there) but TM obviously responded, where he had the gonads to put down an unarmed miscreant but lost due to GZ having a gun. There was no bashing of anything but it could be seen that TM did get the better of GZ due to the cuts on GZ's face.

[lkfmdc]

I happened on this video the other day and as tired as I am about this whole Zimmerman topic I still watched it. I'm a glutton for punishment I guess. What surprised me is just how many facts were left out of the mainstream media. I think the local law enforcement made the correct call in releasing Zimmerman at first, and if it weren't for the pressure from the Obama administration this case would never have made it to court. With that said I think Zimmerman could have handled it better by not stalking Trayvon in the first place however with all the stolen gear found in Trayvons school locker and other facts it appears to me that Zimmerman made the correct call to at least be suspicious of him. I don't think race was a motivating factor in this and if you watch the video you'll see that Zimmerman, though a bit of a kook, liked to stand up for people being racially discriminated against.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebu6Yvzs4Ls

that video is so full of **** the commenter has brown eyes

1. Martin was a big bad MMA fighter, except he wasn't and Zimmerman was the one actually taking MMA classes

2. according to some urban legend, Martin bought an ice tea and skittles because it can be made into some sort of drug, even though there is no evidence for this at all and Zimmerman had no idea what he bought at the 7-11

3. Martin MIGHT have had stolen items in his school locker, except that the school didn't actually say there were stolen items, they never reported it to the police and finally again, Zimmerman knew none of this

but it's typical right wing crack pot illogic, sad you don't see that

[wenshu]

I happened on this video the other day and as tired as I am about this whole Zimmerman topic I still watched it. I'm a glutton for punishment I guess. What surprised me is just how many facts were left out of the mainstream media. I think the local law enforcement made the correct call in releasing Zimmerman at first, and if it weren't for the pressure from the Obama administration this case would never have made it to court. With that said I think Zimmerman could have handled it better by not stalking Trayvon in the first place however with all the stolen gear found in Trayvons school locker and other facts it appears to me that Zimmerman made the correct call to at least be suspicious of him. I don't think race was a motivating factor in this and if you watch the video you'll see that Zimmerman, though a bit of a kook, liked to stand up for people being racially discriminated against.

"Only in America can a dead black boy go on trial for his own murder."
- Syreeta McFadden

[lkfmdc]

"Only in America can a dead black boy go on trial for his own murder."
- Syreeta McFadden

I wish this forum let you like and/or vote up people

[GoldenBrain]

that video is so full of **** the commenter has brown eyes

1. Martin was a big bad MMA fighter, except he wasn't and Zimmerman was the one actually taking MMA classes

2. according to some urban legend, Martin bought an ice tea and skittles because it can be made into some sort of drug, even though there is no evidence for this at all and Zimmerman had no idea what he bought at the 7-11

3. Martin MIGHT have had stolen items in his school locker, except that the school didn't actually say there were stolen items, they never reported it to the police and finally again, Zimmerman knew none of this

but it's typical right wing crack pot illogic, sad you don't see that

Awe puddin, that's cute, but don't be sad for me. It is unfortunate that this kind of info can only be found on so called right wing blogs and such and that the left wing won't even touch it because it may offend somebody. I'm more of an independent libertarian so it kind of sucks that Fox news and other conservative rags are the only places to get decent news anymore.

1. TM was definitely into MMA. Search for a street fight titled anthony vs curtis where you will see TM refereeing. This fight has been pulled from youtube but you can still see it on the so called conservative sites. If you can prove that I'm wrong then I'll admit fault and apologize.

2. You left out cough syrup which is the third ingredient for making this alleged drug.

3. According to police investigators TM was found with 12 pieces of ladies jewelry in his backpack. His backpack was searched because he was observed on CCTV at school in an unauthorized area marking WTF on a door. The investigator was looking for the marker when he found the jewelry and a large flat head screwdriver. When asked if the jewelry was his TM responded "no, a friend gave it to me." You can search for the rest of the report if you like.

GZ was in the wrong in my opinion for stalking and engaging TM in the first place. He should have waited for the police to do their jobs however, one very important point to make is that a jury found him not guilty as per FL law so no matter what we say he was justified in his actions by a jury of his peers.

[GoldenBrain]

"Only in America can a dead black boy go on trial for his own murder."
- Syreeta McFadden

Only in America can a group of thugs beat up and rob innocent hispanics in the name of a black boy. Only in America can the black panther party put out a hit on GZ and not get put in jail for terrorism. Why isn't Syreeta McFadden or yourself upset about that?

This whole thing was messed up. From GZ stalking TM, to the media attempts to try this thing in public, to the retaliations on hispanics and hits put out on GZ...etc.

The best thing to do if anybody suspects a robber in their neighborhood is to call the police. Also, if you are being stalked and have a phone which TM did then calling the police would apply as well.

[lkfmdc]

It is unfortunate that this kind of info can only be found on so called right wing blogs and such and that the left wing won't even touch it because



Aw, I know reading is hard and thinking makes your brain hurt but the reason it only can be found on crack pot right wing blogs is (1) because it can't be substantiated and (2) it is irrelevant...




GZ was in the wrong in my opinion for stalking and engaging TM in the first place. He should have waited for the police to do their jobs




See, sometimes thinking isn't so hard!




however, one very important point to make is that a jury found him not guilty as per FL
law



"Floriday law" (up there with "jumbo shrimp")
Yes, the same law where Zimmerman can stalk and approach a man and then shoot him dead, that's ok

BUT, just firing a gun in the air, not a single injury occuring, can get you hard prison time (happened TWICE NOW in the past few weeks)

[wenshu]

Only in America can a group of thugs beat up and rob innocent hispanics in the name of a black boy. Only in America can the black panther party put out a hit on GZ and not get put in jail for terrorism. Why isn't Syreeta McFadden or yourself upset about that?

Black people are very upsetting, aren't they? You should move to Florida where it is legal to hunt them.

Why is the right wing so ****ing gleeful about this ****?

"See?!? see?!? unarmed black teenagers are dangerous animals, see?!? see?!?"

[lkfmdc]

Black people are very upsetting, aren't they? You should move to Florida where it is legal to hunt them.

Why is the right wing so ****ing gleeful about this ****?

"See?!? see?!? unarmed black teenagers are dangerous animals, see?!? see?!?"

Well, I thank the lord every day that there has never been an instance of groups of white people killing innocent black people....oh, wait.......

More to the point, the anti-intellectualism that has grown in momentum not only depirves people of the tools to reason out something, it actively encourages them to NOT think it out and to denigrade any multi faceted approach....

"dont' confuse me with the facts" has become the mantra

[bawang]

I don't understand. if you hate colored people, why train kung fu? you shouldn't have anything to do with kung fu.

[GoldenBrain]

I don't see how this is a black/white issue. GZ wasn't white, he was Hispanic. I'm Choctaw so don't try to educate me on discrimination. I don't have a problem with anybody's skin color. I do have a problem with a wanna be thug casing a neighborhood for items to add to his growing collection of ladies jewelry.

[GoldenBrain]

Well, I thank the lord every day that there has never been an instance of groups of white people killing innocent black people....oh, wait.......




...Or Native American Indians.

[GoldenBrain]

Black people are very upsetting, aren't they? You should move to Florida where it is legal to hunt them.

Why is the right wing so ****ing gleeful about this ****?

"See?!? see?!? unarmed black teenagers are dangerous animals, see?!? see?!?"

Black people don't upset me wenshu.

I don't know why anybody would be gleeful about this case or loss of life in any situation, especially over material possessions. Call the cops and let them do their jobs would have been a better resolution to this tragedy

We all have the potential to be dangerous animals. Skin color has nothing to do with it.

[wenshu]

I don't see how this is a black/white issue. GZ wasn't white, he was Hispanic. I'm Choctaw so don't try to educate me on discrimination. I don't have a problem with anybody's skin color.

And only white people are capable of racist discrimination.



I do have a problem with a wanna be thug casing a neighborhood for items to add to his growing collection of ladies jewelry.



I don't know why anybody would be gleeful about this case or loss of life in any situation, especially over material possessions. Call the cops and let them do their jobs would have been a better resolution to this tragedy

You are participating in the celebration of the unsubstantiated idea that Martin was a "wannabe thug casing a neighboorhood for items to add to his growing collection of ladies jewelry."

Drudge, WorldNewsDaily, NRO, Freerepublic, FOXNation, Hannity, O'Reilly, Sustren etc are all seething with barely contained jubilation at the implicit notion that the murder of an unarmed black teenager is justification of their racist contempt for "lawless urban culture".

[GoldenBrain]

"Floriday law" (up there with "jumbo shrimp")
Yes, the same law where Zimmerman can stalk and approach a man and then shoot him dead, that's ok

BUT, just firing a gun in the air, not a single injury occuring, can get you hard prison time (happened TWICE NOW in the past few weeks)

I see the point you are making and it's a good one. I can't argue other than to say we need to seriously rethink many of the laws in the US.

[lkfmdc]

I don't see how this is a black/white issue. GZ wasn't white, he was Hispanic. I'm Choctaw so don't try to educate me on discrimination. I don't have a problem with anybody's skin color. I do have a problem with a wanna be thug casing a neighborhood for items to add to his growing collection of ladies jewelry.

1) Hispanic people can be prejudiced against African Americans, in fact, I think anyone who has connection with Hispanic culture knows there are racial issues present as there are in all cultures.

2) Zimmerman didn't know ANYTHING about Martin liking MMA, what he had bought in the 7-11, anything about jewelry, etc... he saw a black kid in a hoodie. People can try and twist it or paint it, but that is what it was. He had no other information about Martin than that....

3) Not only is Martin innocent until proven guilty, but Zimmerman had ZERO access to any of these claims

[GoldenBrain]

And only white people are capable of racist discrimination.

We all are capable. I don't think I'd feel differently if Martin was any other color. At least I hope not but I'll ponder this. I'm not above change and self improvement.


You are participating in the celebration of the unsubstantiated idea that Martin was a "wannabe thug casing a neighboorhood for items to add to his growing collection of ladies jewelry."

Drudge, WorldNewsDaily, NRO, Freerepublic, FOXNation, Hannity, O'Reilly, Sustren etc are all seething with barely contained jubilation at the implicit notion that the murder of an unarmed black teenager is justification of their racist contempt for "lawless urban culture".

I'm not celebrating anything. I think it's a tragedy. Can you explain why Martin had a bag of ladies jewelry? He acted like a thug so it's my view that he was a thug. I could be wrong but for now that's how I view it from afar.

As far as those news agencies. I don't think they care for anything other than stirring the racial pot for ratings which equals money.

[bawang]

I don't see how this is a black/white issue. GZ wasn't white, he was Hispanic. I'm Choctaw so don't try to educate me on discrimination. I don't have a problem with anybody's skin color. I do have a problem with a wanna be thug casing a neighborhood for items to add to his growing collection of ladies jewelry.

trayvon martin lived there. FOO.


I don't see how this is a black/white issue. GZ wasn't white, he was Hispanic.

if u brown stick around. if u yellow u mellow. if u black stay back.


I'm Choctaw so don't try to educate me on discrimination.
didn't u say u got blond hair?

[GoldenBrain]

trayvon martin lived there. FOO.



if u brown stick around. if u yellow u mellow. if u black stay back.


Hahaha, who you calling FOO, FOO!:D

I could be wrong but it's my understanding that he lived in Miami. He was on a two week suspension from Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High after marijuana residue was found in a baggie in his backpack. The same backpack with the ladies jewelry. He was visiting his father in Central Fl who was visiting his girlfriend in that gated community which Zimmerman lived in.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I hope this thread gets deleted.

Ever since SavvySavage jacked off his seed in this thread, others have seen it opportune to rub his juice into their poosies, hoping it will take root.

See, I was very respectful to SavvySavage.

Yum Cha!! Destroy this thread. It is getting ugly.

mickey

[GoldenBrain]

didn't u say u got blond hair?

I don't have blond hair but I do have whitish/reddish skin with light brown hair and blue eyes. Along with Choctaw I also have Chickasaw blood. My Chickasaw family line is known to have instances of blond hair, blue eyes and light skin. Here's a bit of history that you won't find in the books. It is known in our family that the Chickasaw's traded white people long before Columbus arrived. They occasionally bred with Viking people many centuries ago which explains the white features which were present in our family line before Columbus. The traditional Chickasaw longboat that was used to patrol the Mississippi river had a dragon on the front and back and looked very similar to the Viking longboat. What isn't clear is wether they learned this from the Vikings or did the Vikings learn it from the Chickasaws? Below is a photo of a small recreation of the longboat. The original boats held a bunch of warriors and was big enough to fight from.
7665

[bawang]

Hahaha, who you calling FOO, FOO!:D

I could be wrong but it's my understanding that he lived in Miami. He was on a two week suspension from Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High after marijuana residue was found in a baggie in his backpack. The same backpack with the ladies jewelry. He was visiting his father in Central Fl who was visiting his girlfriend in that gated community which Zimmerman lived in.


so when tightey whitey smoke weed, they are peaceful laidback dooooods. when black kids smoke weed, they are thugs.

I don't have blond hair but I do have whitish/reddish skin with light brown hair and blue eyes. Along with Choctaw I also have Chickasaw blood. My Chickasaw family line is known to have instances of blond hair, blue eyes and light skin.

lol counting that 1/2394th precious native blood

[GoldenBrain]

Greetings,

I hope this thread gets deleted.

Ever since SavvySavage jacked off his seed in this thread, others have seen it opportune to rub his juice into their poosies, hoping it will take root.

See, I was very respectful to SavvySavage.

Yum Cha!! Destroy this thread. It is getting ugly.

mickey

I agree and offer my sincerest apology for adding to the hijack. In hindsight I should have just kept my opinion to myself. Peace and good will to all.

[David Jamieson]

Greetings,

I hope this thread gets deleted.

Ever since SavvySavage jacked off his seed in this thread, others have seen it opportune to rub his juice into their poosies, hoping it will take root.

See, I was very respectful to SavvySavage.

Yum Cha!! Destroy this thread. It is getting ugly.

mickey

Mickey, it's an ugly subject and it's hard for many people to deal with. I don't see anyone getting out of hand in the discussion of it and apart from on or two wisecracks from the usual peanut that is a gallery unto himself, this is a fairly heated but civil discussion.

I won't tell Yum Cha to delete his thread and I'm not going to delete it.
This is a serious issue in your country and this case is of high importance in getting sorted in my opinion.

Just the other day in my town an 18 year old kid got shot by the Police.
He pulled a knife on a street car and threatened everyone, they all got off the car except for the driver and when the driver got his chance, he got off too leaving this kid on the street car alone. He was told to drop the knife several times, stayed on the street car and taunted the cops. Within minutes he was shot dead. 9 shots were fired.

In essence, while the kid was an idiot for doing that and he wouldn't drop the knife, he was alone, in a street car surrounded by cops, with tazers, access to gas etc and still, it went to lethal force. All 9 shots were done by one cop.

It is a huge issue here in Toronto right now. the kid was a Syrian immigrant. He was probably messed up on drugs at some level. I personally do not think that under that set of circumstances he deserved to die. He really didn't. they could have locked him in there and gassed him or tazed him, The cop who shot him went to the last resort way too fast.

One thing is for sure, our newcomer population is not developing a good relationship with the cops and the cops aren't doing themselves any favours with this kind of stuff happening.

I'd say that a similar issue is at play with the TM/GZ case and it's outcome.
And I think to rejoice in the death of a hapless youth is vile and disgusting.
No question.

[GoldenBrain]

so when tightey whitey smoke weed, they are peaceful laidback dooooods. when black kids smoke weed, they are thugs.


lol counting that 1/2394th precious native blood


I never said that people of any color who smoke weed are thugs. That's just why he was on suspension.

I'm proud of my native ancestry. I am a card carrying native american that is on the Dawes rolls. There's not to many of us left and there's definitely not many full bloods left, so it's kind of important to me.

[mickey]

David,

I agree it is a problem in this country and throughout the world. If you take notice, only one side is listening. And there is a Trayvon thread elsewhere around here. This thread was about the stand your ground laws and people have been using this thread to voice some very unhealthy rants. Their focus is obfuscated by their social conditioning.

I would not mind another thread about standing your ground that promoted healthy discussion. It is completely gone here.

mickey

[bawang]

I'm proud of my native ancestry. I am a card carrying native american that is on the Dawes rolls. There's not to many of us left and there's definitely not many full bloods left, so it's kind of important to me.
you are proud of being native because you dont look native. you dont carry the burden, just the tax benefits.

the shame and pain of ones appearance is a rite of passage for people of color. u dont qualify.

[Syn7]

I don't see how this is a black/white issue. GZ wasn't white, he was Hispanic. I'm Choctaw so don't try to educate me on discrimination. I don't have a problem with anybody's skin color. I do have a problem with a wanna be thug casing a neighborhood for items to add to his growing collection of ladies jewelry.

You sunk yourself right there. You assume he was casing the hood rather than simply going home and being freaked the **** out by some weird guy following him. Whether he was white, hispanic, or a mix of both is irrelevant. He's not the one who was profiled and shot for walking home.

Being Choctaw doesn't give you a free pass and that comment was straight up offensive.

The simple fact here is that GZ was a failed cop wannabe who was way too soft to be engaging anyone in any physical manner, let alone patrolling the streets with a gun. The guy was a *****. We shouldn't arm pussies and send them out on patrol. And the real sad part here is that he wasn't sent out, he did this all on his own because he was a straight up LARPer *****. GZ made choices that led to the death of a kid. Period. That's manslaughter in any sane state. I would have given him 8 to 12 in a heartbeat.

[Syn7]

I would also like to say this again:

The kid looked like he came straight out of a GAP commercial. There was nothing gangster about his appearance other than the black. Cuffed khakis? Really?

An anything but loose and baggy hood? I see paris hilton wear that ****.

[bawang]

there hasn't been major riots is because most black people are middle class now, moving up and getting education.

[Brule]

there hasn't been major riots is because most black people are middle class now, moving up and getting education.

why didn't you riot then? Mr. stand up for the oppressed

[Syn7]

Rioting in this situation simply isn't the right way to go. You want to be civil when calling for civility. Of course there are douchbag opportunists that will take advantage and get out of hand, but they have shown to be the exception to the rule in this case.

[GoldenBrain]

you are proud of being native because you dont look native. you dont carry the burden, just the tax benefits.

the shame and pain of ones appearance is a rite of passage for people of color. u dont qualify.

For the record there aren't that many Native Americans who look native anymore. Everybody is getting mixed and one day, due to globalization all people will look similar and have light brown skin. This is a theory from the anthropological community but it seems reasonable to me. As far as my features are concerned only my light skin and blue eyes are not native in appearance. If anybody would like to know quickly if they have Native American or Asian ancestry then the first check would be the teeth. Shovel shaped incisors are a good indication.

BTW, I don't receive any tax benefits due to my ancestry and neither does any other Indian. You're considered a minority so do you receive a tax benefit?

I'm not sure why anybody would be ashamed of their appearance due to skin color. Most whit people I know either suffer from white guilt or don't give a hoot either way. The real hardcore racists seem to be dying out due to age. Hopefully thats the case. I may be blind to it so I'll ask you a question. Do you experience racism and if so then in what form? If that's to personal then no worries about not answering. I'm just curious so as to better understand the problem.

[GoldenBrain]

You sunk yourself right there. You assume he was casing the hood rather than simply going home and being freaked the **** out by some weird guy following him. Whether he was white, hispanic, or a mix of both is irrelevant. He's not the one who was profiled and shot for walking home.

Being Choctaw doesn't give you a free pass and that comment was straight up offensive.


Fair points.

I'd prolly freak out too if somebody was stalking me. He did have a phone so calling the police might have saved his life. I think if it were me then I'd have chosen to call the police rather than engage a suspected crazy stalker.


Sorry again to the creator of this thread. I am just continuing because there is dialog directed at me that should be answered. Maybe the mods could merge the TM/GZ comments with the TM tread already in existence.

[bawang]

I may be blind to it so I'll ask you a question. Do you experience racism and if so then in what form?
I used to live in part of Canada nicknamed mississipi of the north. I did not experience much racism, because of my strong communist Chinese childhood. once I sensed it I immediately separated myself. but many of my colored friends were born there, they wanted to fit in and belong, and I observed a lot of pain they went through.

-the game of drowning Asians called nipper tipping
-mixed kids with "tragic mulatto" syndrome. many friends of mine who could pass off betrayed me and abandoned me. every year they email me to apologize, but I never reply.
-an Iranian girl blowing two white boys hoping to join the in crowed but laughed and shamed
- segregated high schools, one black one white, facing another
- black and white kid violence, the black kids protected the immigrant kids, but we never talked to each other.
- 3 or 4 girls who liked me pressured to stay away. I learned at a young age that white woman is off limits, but many of my friends could not accept that and went on their quest for magical white poosy.

[GoldenBrain]

I used to live in part of Canada nicknamed mississipi of the north. I did not experience much racism, because once I sensed it I immediately separated myself. but many of my colored friends were born there, they wanted to fit in and belong, and I observed a lot of pain they went through.

-the game of drowning Asians called nipper tipping
-mixed kids with "tragic mulatto" syndrome
-an Iranian girl blowing two white boys hoping to join the in crowed but laughed and shamed
- segregated high schools, one black one white, facing another
- black and white kid violence, the black kids protected the immigrant kids, but we never talked to each other.
- 3 or 4 girls who liked me pressured to stay away. I learned at a young age that white woman is off limits, but many of my friends could not accept that and went on their quest for magical white poosy.


I'm sure most people have some sort of bias towards their own race but stuff like that is just criminal. I really hope the human race can move past all this.

[bawang]

I'm sure most people have some sort of bias towards their own race but stuff like that is just criminal. I really hope the human race can move past all this.

from my experience i understood something, and i want you to understand this.

most black people grow up thinking they are white when they are children, then they experience some sort of traumatic event that reveal they are black. it is very very terrible, and can make you half insane.

many blacks also live in hyper-reality, ready to confront or fight any time anywhere, because traumatic racism happens when they let down their guard. when you are relaxed and happy, racists can sense it, and they will attack you. hyper reality is a state of feeling permanent danger.

[YouKnowWho]

when you are relaxed and happy, racists can sense it, and they will attack you.
I wonder when Bruce Lee married to his wife Linda, Bruce ever felt racist.

[GoldenBrain]

from my experience i understood something, and i want you to understand this.

most black people grow up thinking they are white when they are children, then they experience some sort of traumatic event that reveal they are black. it is very very terrible, and can make you half insane.

many blacks also live in hyper-reality, ready to confront or fight any time anywhere, because traumatic racism happens when they let down their guard. when you are relaxed and happy, racists can sense it, and they will attack you.

Now that's something I never considered. I admit that I haven't fully considered racism in quite a while. There was a time when I lived in Tampa, Fl in some nasty projects so I experienced some racism in my direction, but thankfully I became successful and moved out of that terrible place. I feel bad for those who are still living in that situation. It was a painful time in my life so I tend to block the memory of it all, but I will really never forget it. The discussion in this thread has given me many things to ponder and I hope others lurking will do the same.

[mickey]

bawang wrote:

"most black people grow up thinking they are white when they are children, then they experience some sort of traumatic event that reveal they are black. it is very very terrible, and can make you half insane."

This is NEWS to me. Racism is the trauma. Not how we look. It seems that the people you associated with can not afford mirrors. :)


That hyper reality thing is a little strange.


mickey

[lkfmdc]

And now for something completely related

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57596401-504083/george-zimmerman-armed-when-stopped-for-speeding-in-texas-report-says/

[wenshu]

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18vlfsakgh8zdgif/ku-medium.gif

[Jimbo]

I wonder when Bruce Lee married to his wife Linda, Bruce ever felt racist.

I read that BL's in-laws did NOT like Linda marrying a Chinese man. And I'm certain BL and wife had to have experienced racism, or at the very least got rude looks and negative comments. And not just from white people, either. Consider the time period, too.

Even today, Westerners generally accept the typical white man/Asian woman pairings much more readily than Asian man/white woman, although the latter is growing much more common. My older brother's been with his Caucasian wife for nearly 40 years now, and they're doing great.

[Yum Cha]

For the record there aren't that many Native Americans who look native anymore.

You haven't spent much time in New Mexico or Arizona I suspect.

Racism is about the unknown. Racial polarisation in America is incredible. People who associate in multi-racial environments learn empathy real quick. Well meaning people make stupid ignorant mistakes, and there are plenty of a-holes to go around, you don't need a racial tag to recognise one.

And now, there are laws that practically mandate you escalate to lethal force in any confrontation where you are armed. Kill or die, no middle ground.

So, a bunch of white kids, cruising in their car in the (black, asian, hispanic, MUSLIM, quaker, whatever) neighbourhood. Well, a bunch of criminals down here to buy 'whatever' and need to be confronted....

I just can't see how the law can work. 'I was scared' is a valid defence for murder, and all us know we're dosed with fear constantly by the media.

And David, I think Bawang redeemed himself with an insightful post on the subtle insidious racism that majorities just laugh off, even if they manage to notice. He keeps the title of Clown Prince well tended.

Ignorance is the big dumb muscle that covers racism's back. You fight ignorance and the racism stands alone for what it is. And then like most cowards, it slinks away.

[Syn7]

And now for something completely related

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57596401-504083/george-zimmerman-armed-when-stopped-for-speeding-in-texas-report-says/

If you get off for killing an unarmed black teen, Texas seems like the logical place to go hang out. Either that or Arizona. I mean, if he went to a place like Mississippi, he may get profiled and shot for looking like a dirty job stealing illegal alien Mexican. :rolleyes:

[Syn7]

You haven't spent much time in New Mexico or Arizona I suspect.

Racism is about the unknown. Racial polarisation in America is incredible. People who associate in multi-racial environments learn empathy real quick. Well meaning people make stupid ignorant mistakes, and there are plenty of a-holes to go around, you don't need a racial tag to recognise one.

And now, there are laws that practically mandate you escalate to lethal force in any confrontation where you are armed. Kill or die, no middle ground.

So, a bunch of white kids, cruising in their car in the (black, asian, hispanic, MUSLIM, quaker, whatever) neighbourhood. Well, a bunch of criminals down here to buy 'whatever' and need to be confronted....

I just can't see how the law can work. 'I was scared' is a valid defence for murder, and all us know we're dosed with fear constantly by the media.

And David, I think Bawang redeemed himself with an insightful post on the subtle insidious racism that majorities just laugh off, even if they manage to notice. He keeps the title of Clown Prince well tended.

Ignorance is the big dumb muscle that covers racism's back. You fight ignorance and the racism stands alone for what it is. And then like most cowards, it slinks away.


"I was scared" is only valid if you do not put yourself in that situation to begin with.

If you walk up to a guy, mouth him off, take a swing and he gets the better of you and you shoot him... that is manslaughter, potentially murder.

If you are walking home with groceries and somebody attacks you and you shoot them, that is self defense.

It's not as complicated as people make it seem. When dealing with basic right and wrong, the truth is clear. None of the societal ills are relevant. Whether it's a dangerous hood or not. What race they were. What kind of past they have. None of that is relevant. You are allowed to be a *****, you just can't be a ***** causing harm to another.

It's amazing how people get dragged into details that aren't even a little relevant. Sad how easily people are distracted with clear utter bull****.

[Yum Cha]

"I was scared" is only valid if you do not put yourself in that situation to begin with.

If you walk up to a guy, mouth him off, take a swing and he gets the better of you and you shoot him... that is manslaughter, potentially murder.

If you are walking home with groceries and somebody attacks you and you shoot them, that is self defense.

It's not as complicated as people make it seem. When dealing with basic right and wrong, the truth is clear. None of the societal ills are relevant. Whether it's a dangerous hood or not. What race they were. What kind of past they have. None of that is relevant. You are allowed to be a *****, you just can't be a ***** causing harm to another.

It's amazing how people get dragged into details that aren't even a little relevant. Sad how easily people are distracted with clear utter bull****.

Are you pretending that Lawyers don't exist, and justice isn't based on financial power?
The intent of the law is admirable, but its a band-aid with no gauze or stick-um, i.e. its useless and doesn't do what its supposed to do is how it appears to me. Other than raise the fear level, justify more gun ownership and generally raise the stakes all around.

[Syn7]

Are you pretending that Lawyers don't exist, and justice isn't based on financial power?
The intent of the law is admirable, but its a band-aid with no gauze or stick-um, i.e. its useless and doesn't do what its supposed to do is how it appears to me. Other than raise the fear level, justify more gun ownership and generally raise the stakes all around.

Nah, I'm saying that Fla law is irrelevant when it comes to right and wrong. And I agree, the laws are ridiculous. My point is that regardless of Fla law, GZ committed manslaughter at the very least, which is wrong. No matter how you slice this, he was wrong. It doesn't matter what a jury says. He's still wrong.

Laws are about control, not right and wrong. For every law we have that coincides with a decent moral, there are thousands that justify poor behaviour.

Wasn't disagreeing with ya. :)

[SavvySavage]

Greetings,

I hope this thread gets deleted.

Ever since SavvySavage jacked off his seed in this thread, others have seen it opportune to rub his juice into their poosies, hoping it will take root.

See, I was very respectful to SavvySavage.

Yum Cha!! Destroy this thread. It is getting ugly.

mickey

Many women have craved my seed sp this thread should be blessed.

Don't blame this on me. It's not my fault you can't accept that there is more than one opinion on this and many other topics on this forum. It's called freedom of speech. Not freedom of left wing liberal speech and then close the thread when the opposite view comes on. This is a good lively debate so debate and quit crying.

What about the black guy that shot the white guy in the other Florida stand your ground case?

Why is everyone ignoring all the stuff found on TM? Jewelry. Skittles, Gatorade, AND cough syrup.

Maybe tm was a jewelry salesman who liked to get high o. Weed because his business was so good. Maybe he had a cough he coolant get rid of, needed sugar, and had a doc that told him to keep himself hydrated.

Or maybe he was a thug.

[bawang]

thugs have guns, FOO.

[Syn7]

Ok that is watertight! I know for a fact that anyone who uses cough syrup at any time of the year is for sure a thug. I mean, come on. Any retard knows this!


Cough syrup + skittles + jewelry + black + yacht club uniform = Thug!

[bawang]

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/04/23/the-black-brute-stereotype/

[Syn7]

And how come the GZ supporters gloss over his criminal history which include domestic violence and assaulting an officer? Yeah, context matters, doesn't it? On the surface it looks like he's a violent wife beater. A man who degenerates women on myspace with VERY misogynistic language. A model citizen, no doubt.

If TM's past is relevant, then so is GZ's.

[bawang]

just look at his expression and eyes. the dudes a reptile.

[Syn7]

just look at his expression and eyes. the dudes a reptile.

Nah, just a poosey! Too much mommy titties and not enough friends on the playground. Straight up *****made poosey. His whole defense was based on how soft he was. "I'm a *****, signed a cheque my ass couldn't cash so I had to kill the kid" :rolleyes:

Had he actually been arrested and held, he would have been a housewife before he left county.

[MightyB]

I used to live in part of Canada nicknamed mississipi of the north. I did not experience much racism, because of my strong communist Chinese childhood. once I sensed it I immediately separated myself. but many of my colored friends were born there, they wanted to fit in and belong, and I observed a lot of pain they went through.

I learned at a young age that white woman is off limits, but many of my friends could not accept that and went on their quest for magical white poosy.

What's your experience now that you've moved to MSU / East Lansing?

[bawang]

What's your experience now that you've moved to MSU / East Lansing?

passive agresive liberals and working class that are very scared of black people. looks like rich liberals had white flight from lansing to east lansing, very safe and tame.

[MightyB]

passive agresive liberals and working class that are very scared of black people. looks like rich liberals had white flight from lansing to east lansing, very safe and tame.

So now you'll get the chance to try some of that magical white poosey. :)

[bawang]

So now you'll get the chance to try some of that magical white poosey. :)

its cold and lifeless, like a sausage casing.



seriously speaking I had seen a freakish looking one I liked, with dyed white hair, Justin bieber haircut, and pale skin like vampire, but I never saw her again.

[Yum Cha]

its cold and lifeless, like a sausage casing......

You met my ex??

[xcakid]

And how come the GZ supporters gloss over his criminal history which include domestic violence and assaulting an officer?



Would love to see ACTUAL POLICE record with these on there. Cause I know for a fact, getting a concealed weapons license is near impossible with these charges on your record. Me thinks you are getting this info from biased sources.

[xcakid]

We live in a democracy. I don't have to identify and explain myself to random strangers. A police officer, yes, but not a random stranger.





While true and I agree to certain extent. There is such a thing a manners and common courtesy. Which I believe is still a part of martial arts training. No? Is that not a part of your curriculum?

[David Jamieson]

While true and I agree to certain extent. There is such a thing a manners and common courtesy. Which I believe is still a part of martial arts training. No? Is that not a part of your curriculum?

while I agree with this, it is equally ill mannered to be intrusive and nosy.

[madhusudan]

while I agree with this, it is equally ill mannered to be intrusive and nosy.

True, but one can encounter ill manners without descending to the same level.

It's a matter of desire, maturity, commitment and practice. And even then we make more mistakes than we dare to count. So, the way I see it is, without impugning the young man's character, there is room for improvement in his response, at least in the way the story was related.

Since we all have room for improvement, he is a member of an illustrious club.

[Syn7]

Would love to see ACTUAL POLICE record with these on there. Cause I know for a fact, getting a concealed weapons license is near impossible with these charges on your record. Me thinks you are getting this info from biased sources.

Nope. I was making a point about context. The felonies were dropped to misdemeanors.
But this is my point. Context matters. How many times had TM gone to court? Aside from being tried at his own murder trial, that is?

[Syn7]

True, but one can encounter ill manners without descending to the same level.

It's a matter of desire, maturity, commitment and practice. And even then we make more mistakes than we dare to count. So, the way I see it is, without impugning the young man's character, there is room for improvement in his response, at least in the way the story was related.

Since we all have room for improvement, he is a member of an illustrious club.

We will never know what happened. If you take GZ's assertions out of the picture, one could just as easily assume that GZ tried to "secure" TM and got whooped for his efforts. What would you do if you were out at night and some creepy dude was trying to put hands on you? Regardless of the words coming from his mouth, my posture would be far more than just defensive.

[madhusudan]

We will never know what happened. If you take GZ's assertions out of the picture, one could just as easily assume that GZ tried to "secure" TM and got whooped for his efforts. What would you do if you were out at night and some creepy dude was trying to put hands on you? Regardless of the words coming from his mouth, my posture would be far more than just defensive.

That post was in relation to the 'opening the gym' situation posted much earlier in the thread. My bad if that wasn't clear.

As far as the GZ/TM case, my take is GZ was wrong for 'stalking' and TM was wrong to attack first. It is a tragedy, and the more so because of how it has been exploited.

With the understanding that Wikipedia is what it is, here's its page on manslaughter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter

According to that page, I could possibly see it as 'constructive manslaughter' with the criminal act on GZ's part being stalking (but, then, I don't really know the legal definition of stalking either.) I don't see how the case falls into the other definitions of manslaughter, much less murder.

I also see the case from GZ's perspective of getting his head bashed on the concrete, however. This, of course, assumes that what he has related is the truth.

[Yum Cha]

while I agree with this, it is equally ill mannered to be intrusive and nosy.

Funny the take on this. Man, I love it when my neighbour looks after my place, and I have done the same in return. Has community collapsed to the point where its 'nosy' to look after your neighbour? I mean NY is legendary for its a-holes, a matter of pride indeed, but hey, if David's dude had introduced himself, thanked the neighbour for his concern and made an acquaintance, would he loose his NY creds? Be deemed weak, and immediately eaten by wolves?

Of course, in NY, maybe the neighbour is just jealous because he was casing the joint...

:D:D

[Syn7]

I don't see anything wrong with protecting person or property of those who are unable or absent. But come on... there is a balance here. There is a line between good citizen and douchbag interloper.

[Syn7]

That post was in relation to the 'opening the gym' situation posted much earlier in the thread. My bad if that wasn't clear.

As far as the GZ/TM case, my take is GZ was wrong for 'stalking' and TM was wrong to attack first. It is a tragedy, and the more so because of how it has been exploited.

With the understanding that Wikipedia is what it is, here's its page on manslaughter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manslaughter

According to that page, I could possibly see it as 'constructive manslaughter' with the criminal act on GZ's part being stalking (but, then, I don't really know the legal definition of stalking either.) I don't see how the case falls into the other definitions of manslaughter, much less murder.

I also see the case from GZ's perspective of getting his head bashed on the concrete, however. This, of course, assumes that what he has related is the truth.

Sorry, my bad.

About manslaughter. By any REASONABLE definition, this was a clear case of manslaughter, not murder. Either way, guilty. I would have thrown 8 to 12 at him in a flash. And this is assuming GZ was honest about the timeline. If he did try to secure TM, then we get into a grey area between manslaughter and murder. If you put hands on me, I defend myself and you shoot me, that is murder.

The civil trial should be fun. All they have to do is prove he was responsible for the death, at least as far as I know. That's a no brainer. I hope they soak his ass.

[Yum Cha]

I don't see anything wrong with protecting person or property of those who are unable or absent. But come on... there is a balance here. There is a line between good citizen and douchbag interloper.

One thing we learned from the Zimmerman trial, pays to be polite to strangers, even if you are right.

[Syn7]

One thing we learned from the Zimmerman trial, pays to be polite to strangers, even if you are right.

Yeah, sure. But when some dude with NO authority puts his hands on you, you have every right to do what you have to do to prevent yourself from being victimized. I'm sure many times when a man tries to rape somebody, he fronts like he has some sort of authority. Let's pretend TM was female, do we still feel the same way? Creepy dude puts his hands on her when she knows that she has done nothing wrong and has no reason to believe he has good intentions? Whether he had good intentions or not is besides the point.

So in this particular case, yes TM would have been better off had he simply submitted to being profiled and having his rights abused, but usually that isn't the case. I wouldn't blame anyone for being alarmed under these circumstances. If anyone had the right to feel threatened here, it was TM.

[Yum Cha]

Yeah, sure. But when some dude with NO authority puts his hands on you, you have every right to do what you have to do to prevent yourself from being victimized. I'm sure many times when a man tries to rape somebody, he fronts like he has some sort of authority. Let's pretend TM was female, do we still feel the same way? Creepy dude puts his hands on her when she knows that she has done nothing wrong and has no reason to believe he has good intentions? Whether he had good intentions or not is besides the point.

So in this particular case, yes TM would have been better off had he simply submitted to being profiled and having his rights abused, but usually that isn't the case. I wouldn't blame anyone for being alarmed under these circumstances. If anyone had the right to feel threatened here, it was TM.

I was talking about David's case. of the guy fumbling for keys outside the gym door...

[Syn7]

I was talking about David's case. of the guy fumbling for keys outside the gym door...

Ha. This time I did know that. :D
It was in response to this:


One thing we learned from the Zimmerman trial, pays to be polite to strangers, even if you are right.

I chose to bring it full circle.

[lance]

This seems to be rather topical these days. I know we have American, Canadian, English and Australian folks here, we all live under the principles of English Common Law, and how its evolved in each country.

In Australia, the principle of self defence is that you can appropriate force to stop the attack, but you can't continue on, pursue or otherwise beat the sh1t out of someone.
As soon as they cease their attack, you must too. You must be attacked first.
Its dumb. And often results in people who were the victims being charged. You have no special rights if the incident happens in your bedroom, or on the street.

Not sure, but the UK had a similar interpretation, until recently where they introduced some 'stand your ground' type language, where you were allowed to respond 'if you felt threatened' without having to wait to be attacked. That was in the news last year?

What is the situation in the states with this Florida 'stand your ground' law everybody is talking about? And I'm sure it applies to hand to hand as well as guns, in principle?Every country has their own laws on self defense so people need to obey it .

[Ben Gash]

This seems to be rather topical these days. I know we have American, Canadian, English and Australian folks here, we all live under the principles of English Common Law, and how its evolved in each country.

In Australia, the principle of self defence is that you can appropriate force to stop the attack, but you can't continue on, pursue or otherwise beat the sh1t out of someone.
As soon as they cease their attack, you must too. You must be attacked first.
Its dumb. And often results in people who were the victims being charged. You have no special rights if the incident happens in your bedroom, or on the street.

Not sure, but the UK had a similar interpretation, until recently where they introduced some 'stand your ground' type language, where you were allowed to respond 'if you felt threatened' without having to wait to be attacked. That was in the news last year?

What is the situation in the states with this Florida 'stand your ground' law everybody is talking about? And I'm sure it applies to hand to hand as well as guns, in principle?
In UK law since the 60s you are able to use reasonable force in self defence.
Indeed the exact wording is
3. — (1) A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large.
Under this act you've always been able to use force against a perceived threat if it is reasonable to do so.

[bawang]

One thing we learned from the Zimmerman trial, pays to be polite to strangers, even if you are right.

you really think Zimmerman would have let trayvon live on that night?

[Syn7]

you really think Zimmerman would have let trayvon live on that night?

Had Trayvon simply allowed himself to be subjected to GZ's bull****? Absolutely I think he would have lived through it. I don't think GZ was out to kill anyone. I think he was just a wannabe who got in over his head and shot a kid. Manslaughter, straight up. Poster child for LARPer.

That being said, I can't blame anyone for engaging some random dude on the street who approaches in an aggressive manner. Had Trayvon grabbed the gun and shot GZ, he would be doing time. This we all know.

[bawang]

Had Trayvon simply allowed himself to be subjected to GZ's bull****? Absolutely I think he would have lived through it. I don't think GZ was out to kill anyone. I think he was just a wannabe who got in over his head and shot a kid. Manslaughter, straight up. Poster child for LARPer.

That being said, I can't blame anyone for engaging some random dude on the street who approaches in an aggressive manner. Had Trayvon grabbed the gun and shot GZ, he would be doing time. This we all know.

the eyes. look at the eyes.

[Syn7]

the eyes. look at the eyes.

lol... You're attracted to them reptilian eyes, huh!


Next time you're called for jury duty, just say "I can tell if a man is guilty by looking in his eyes!" You'll probably get to go home.

[Yum Cha]

Trying to stay off the Zimmerman case in particular, it appears there are two takes on self defence:

Defend your home with ultimate force, no questions asked, but you have a responsibility to disengage if possible elsewhere. You cannot pursue a threat that has no longer become a threat, and you have to meet that threat with a 'reasonable' response.

Or

Stand your ground, ultimate force at any perceived threat, preemptive or responsive.

Just doesn't seem to me it will work.
We eliminate the proximity to home, i.e. being cornered.
We eliminate the need for action to be in Response to an attack.
We eliminate the requirement for 'reasonable' response.
But most importantly, we eliminate the ability to truly tell who was in the wrong, and who was defending themselves. And, it emboldens people not equipped for conflict with anything but lethal force.
Is the ultimate aim really that you should be so totally polite in public because who knows who has a gun? Or that as a gun carrying member of society, you are somehow deputised to keep order?

[Kymus]

Trying to stay off the Zimmerman case in particular, it appears there are two takes on self defence:

Defend your home with ultimate force, no questions asked, but you have a responsibility to disengage if possible elsewhere. You cannot pursue a threat that has no longer become a threat, and you have to meet that threat with a 'reasonable' response.

Or

Stand your ground, ultimate force at any perceived threat, preemptive or responsive.

Just doesn't seem to me it will work.
We eliminate the proximity to home, i.e. being cornered.
We eliminate the need for action to be in Response to an attack.
We eliminate the requirement for 'reasonable' response.
But most importantly, we eliminate the ability to truly tell who was in the wrong, and who was defending themselves. And, it emboldens people not equipped for conflict with anything but lethal force.
Is the ultimate aim really that you should be so totally polite in public because who knows who has a gun? Or that as a gun carrying member of society, you are somehow deputised to keep order?

I think the ultimate aim is personal safety and not getting killed. The idea behind laws like Stand Your Ground is being able to use lethal force if you feel your life is in danger.

This of course is rarely cut and dry. I've seen two cases recently where someone was stealing another person's car and they got shot and killed. In both cases, the thief either kept walking towards the individual or they made a motion like they were reaching for something.

It's a tough call. When a random tough guy tries starting with me, I just show him I'm not interested and not scared and so then he just runs his mouth and walks away. He's not armed (or at least I don't think he is) and so therefore, I really don't care about him.

In instances where someone feels like their life may be in danger, most people prefer to take a chance, I guess? I assume they felt threatened enough that they saw the need to respond with deadly force (or basically to just shoot at the person and - I assume - in a handful of these cases that ends up being deadly force).

[David Jamieson]

Considering how irrational and stupid human beings can be when they "feel" something, I think having a law that opens the door to you killing someone because you "feel" your life is in danger is a little lacking in understanding of the human condition.

The idea needs work. Clearly.

[No_Know]

I heard stand your ground with the Zimmerman-Martin thing and followed that line. Come to find from the first page of this thread Stand-your-Ground was a ploy and not a claim[Z. would need to be unaware of SYG or he might get flack].

There might be situations where SYGreally helps. As for the psychopaths frustrated with holding back and feigning good-neighbor, perhaps a Bait circumstance clause could be included--Zimmerman-Martin, SYG would apply to Martin. While the juror people talked about-juror stated Martin didn't live there, he did. Z. stated M. was acting funny-Unless Z knew All residents and guests It was not for him to presume a person doesn't live there especially as some tout that it was a multi cultural community, not just a gated community.

I'd like to look at cases SYG were considered excuses to kill but being at the spot you're standing Your Ground versus baiting someone...

And just Why would Z.yell help if the assailant...to seem like a victim same as cutting his head twoce to worsen the look of it

No_Know