Kung fu guys can't fight?? Could've fooled me!

[JennyLiuJKD]

Hi all it's been awhile since i posted and i've also been kind of lazy with training but that's also because i've been very busy! my jiu jitsu teacher left the gym and so now i don't have anyone teaching my grappling which stinks :( but at least now i can concentrate on making my muay thai better. But i just wanted to share with you all that i saw a kung fu fighter fight on tape for the first time recently. it was a san shou kickboxing match between a fighter from the san shou team of some kung fu school and a mixed martial arts fighter. The pace was very intense and at the start of the match the mma fighter came out strong and was dominating in the boxing and landing a lot of punches. he might've punched himself out a bit because he started slowing down and the kung fu guy defended well and didn't take serious damage. then the kung fu guy went on the sudden offensive putting together some nice combos and doing good damage with a variety of kicks which he set up with punches. the mma guy was getting pounded for awhile! i think during the second round the mma guy woke up his kickboxing skills and so they started having a pretty even exchange with the kung fu guy having a slight edge in getting his shots in and showing better technique. After a bit of pure kickboxing the kung fu guy surprised his opponent with what seemed like a perfect judo type throw when they went to the clinch. later in the match the mma guy tried shooting in for some takedowns himself but didn't get anything. But the kung fu guy pulled off at least a couple more excellent throws using judo type throws and a hard sweep off of a kick catch. the mma guy was tough but by the end he seemed pretty frustrated and although there was no knock out there was no questioning who won the fight. I was very impressed with the kung fu fighter. it was not what i expected a kung fu fight to be like. it actually seemed very similar to how we would fight in muay thai except they do a lot of throws and pull off a wider variety of kicks than your pure thai boxer would. but i think that balances out because real thai boxers use a lot of knees and elbows along with kicks. although i see similarites with thai boxing, judo and wrestling the overall strategy is very unique. i mentioned to the friend who showed me the tape that it kind of didn't fit in with what the image of kung fu fighting most people have. i didn't see anyone moving in various postures yelling "hai-ya!" or doing trapping techniques and karate chops. he simply told me that the actual chinese fighters use their own form of kickboxing combined with chinese wrestling throws. the guy i saw did do a couple cool kicks so that made me happy though :) Anyway i was impressed with what i saw and yeah i know that san shou fighting is not necessarily limited to kung fu techniques but the guy listed his style as kung fu and he was from a kung fu school so what more do you want? i think it would make things pretty interesting if you had more of these guys going to mma.

Deadliness is often masked by beauty

[jjj]

San Shou kickboxing is not Kung Fu, its kickboxing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[Water Dragon]

No it's not.

[Badger]

Parkay.

Badger

BJJ is Superior to Mullets!G

[Xebsball]

Cool :)

Check out Marvin Perry's site for some San Shou clips:

http://www.marvinperry.org

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"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

[jjj]

From Xebsball's Marvin Perry site:

"I got bored and I wanted to learn how to fight. That is when I decided that I wanted to quit Kung Fu and do San Shou."

HAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAA

Told ya!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[Water Dragon]

Well, I say it is. At least I use Kung Fu in San Shou. Works pretty **** well.

[Xebsball]

Jedi, how dare you do that!!

You are a SITH, i knew it!!

Anyway, i know what he means its like he wanted to do straight forward fighting with lots of sparring. And in kung fu most schools will taken more time to teach someone how to fight.

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"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

[Xebsball]

Sanshou is a format, if people fight with kickboxing style in there its their own fault.

Question - If i did Sanshou but used the eagle claw and locks would i be:
a) A kickboxer with some throwing and locking skills
b) A Sanshou guy
c) A kung fu guy because im using the seizing skills unique from eagle claw
d) A Jeet Kune Do guy
e) A mixed martial artist

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"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

[LEGEND]

XEBALLS...how are u gonna use eagle claw and locks in a san shou tourney when u have boxing gloves on your hands???

A

[krome]

Is the answer E?

Use what works not what looks pretty.

[Xebsball]

Sorry i think you misunderstood what i meant. I dont mean like using locks on sanshou tournament because thats illegal by the way.

I meant in a real fight. If I take a Sanshou's guy stance but use locks, what am i?

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"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

[Ford Prefect]

This is all very confusing. Is there a formula I need?

[shinwa]

It could never be REAL kung Fu. You think you can use Snake, Crane, or Dragon, with the boxing gloves on? Kung Fu low kicks are aimed at joints as they're meant for breaking, not thigh muscles. Kung Fu techniques are meant for serious injury. Of course you cant do that for a sport or competition match. San Shou is Kung Fu kickboxing heh heh. Light on the deadly real techniques. Heavy on the standard muscle power type techniques and Shuai Jiao. Real martial arts, in their true form, can't be part of any game. Come on man, dont be absurd. Once you try to turn survival into a sport, it really isn't survival anymore.

A snake stylist wouldnt punch at your face, he'd strike at your throat. True karate doesn't box, they use knife hand chops on necks and elbow sternums. etc etc. Crap like that should only and will only happen if people are fighting for real. In the street. Not for thousand dollar purses, and with cornermen,ring girls, massages during the breaks in fighting, etc etc etc.

San Shou, Kickboxing, MMA tournaments, etc etc are GAMES. Take the for what they are, nothing more. You think real fights last thirty minutes? Nope. Special rules for people like Royce? Nope.

[Water Dragon]

Shinwa is correct. God forbid someone should think that they have the ability to strike the throat OR the face. And of course, everyone knows Kung Fu is nothing but a string of techniques that go together. Thank goodness we don't have things like principles or strategy that can be applied to a non resisting opponent in a sporting atmosphere. :rolleyes:

[Brad]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Light on the deadly real techniques[/quote]
Since when does a technique have to be deadly to be "real"? Who's going to be better off in a street fight? A well conditioned, highly trained, athlete who hits people for a living; or someone who relies on "deadly" or cripling techniques which are imposible to test in modern society without a world of legal troubles?
Real or not, I wouldn't want to be the mugger who jumps the winner of any of these "games".

[shinwa]

No no no. You're misunderstanding me. I'm not dissing the sports, I love them all and have fought in versions of them all one time or another. Im saying that even if a snake stylist signs up for a San Shou event, you shouldn't view him as a represenative of the entire system or somekind of measure of how Snake Style stylist really fight. Because these being sporting events no way in hell he can use his style. Thats not a knock, its an observation. I KNOW those techniques shouldn't be used for sport, and Im glad sport techniques dont allow them.

Sometimes people see these events and comment that Kung Fu is crap because when they fight they fight like kickboxers. Im saying OF COURSE. It's the Kung Fu equivalent of kickboxing. You apply certain lessons that you learn in traditional frames but you can't apply traditional techniques for the most parts due to limitations.

I didnt say a technique had to be deadly to be real. :rolleyes: I'm saying they can't use the true methods of their style because of the limitations that have to be placed on such a thing in sporting competetions/fighting outside of survival. But yes, the techniques in most martial arts are meant to do serious damage, not leave a little muscle soreness in the morning. Thats partly why initially they were taugh to so few (guards, princes and what have you). All I'm saying is , dont expect a Wing Chun fellow, yo use Wing Chun in a San Shou tournament. Dont expect an eagle claw stylist to strictly use eagle claw in tournament. Dont expect a monkey stylist to solely use monkey in a toiurnament. The rules prevent that ya know. Wing Chun with boxing gloves? get real. The most you can do is apply certain elements of your style to a kickboxing format.

So as bluntly as I can say it, dont judge a style by a sport because even though they're hard, tough and take guts, all they are, are sports. totally different energy and psychology involved. Not saying they arent real fighters or anything man. geeze.

Why so defensive?

[shinwa]

heh heh. Water Dragon thats exactly what I was saying. The sarcasm was misplaced bro. Here is a quote from my post:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>San Shou is Kung Fu kickboxing heh heh. [/quote]

[Sharky]

"I realized that I wasn't having as much fun as I did when I started training in Kung Fu 2 years ago. I got bored and I wanted to learn how to fight." - Marvin Perry

LOL

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[gfhegel21]

shinwa=naive

[shinwa]

heh heh naive. That's new.

try to understand what I'm saying man. Go pick a fight and see if the dude spends time feeling you out with slow jabs and low round kicks to your thigh. All I'm saying is there is a difference.

[gfhegel21]

Sorry Shinwa, I posted before your lengthy post above came up.

You do make a good point, There is a difference, no doubt. But a lot of people who have done both claim that MMA is a lot tougher than the streetfights they've been in. Jimmy23 has a lot of experience along these lines ... he has stated that his MMA training made a big difference in his streetfighting (he was a bouncer).

Unless you've actually applied throat chops, eagle claw tearing, joint destructions, fish hooking etc. routinely in a number of confrontations, I wouldn't rely on them to be decisive in a confrontation. Without question, it's good to have experience in these kinds of techniques.

So I sort of agree and sort of disagree with you. I agree there are important differences, but I disagree that MMA, San Shou, etc. are merely "games."

[shinwa]

Well heck yah the MMA fights are tougher than your average fights on the street. That wasn't what I was saying. I was saying dont judge a style by a watered down sport representation of it. Hey just because I say they're games (as they are since they involve rules, politics, etc etc) doesn't mean I dont think they're valuable and take bucketloads of skill. Nor do i think they're bad fighters, i think they're just as good, maybe better than they are in the ring as far as fighting goes. I dont think I stated my point well.

[Kristoffer]

san shou is not kickboxing. thats a statement of a novice figther. sorry

~K~
"maybe not in combat.. but think of the chicks man, the chicks!" -- someone on the subject of back-flips in combat --

[shinwa]

Of course San Shou isn't kickboxing. I said it was like a Kung Fu version of kickboxing. Diffrences included.

Novice? 19 years here. And you?

[jimmy23]

another point is that even MMA schools have different approaches to fighting that may hurt them or help them on the street. For example, one of the areas we drill relentlessly at my school is ground positioning and movement-the ability to reverse a position and to move (while on the ground or transition to standup). This isnt as glamorous as a lot of submission work , but its tranlates well to street combat ( abilty to get back to your feet quickly, even if the bad guy is on top of you)and goes a long way towards setting up submissions .


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[straight blast]

I think that one of the reasons "Kung Fu Kickboxing" looks like Kickboxing is because when you are wearing gloves & fighting under slightly modified Kickboxing rules the Moves from Kickboxing work far better. I'm sure if you put a Kickboxer on top of the plum flower posts he'd adjust his style somewhat to fit the rules too. After all, have you ever tried a blitz/switch on top of the poles? Could be painful.
A lot of the stuff you see in the ring isn't real Kung Fu, not the stuff I'm accustomed to. I've always been taught that once contact is made it's not stopped until the fight is over. How often do you see that in San Shou/Kickboxing? The methodology of Kung Fu isn't designed for the ring and as such can leave the Kung Fu player somewhat "High & dry", like our friend the Thai Boxer on the Plum blossom poles :cool:

"Forfeit the game
Before somebody else takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face
You can't run the race
The pace is too fast,
You just won't last!"

[shinwa]

Exactly! :cool:

[jjj]

San Shou is simply kickboxing that allows throws.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[Xebsball]

Man, are you related to Ralek?

-------------------------
"I AM EFFECTIVNESS"

[jjj]

Go watch it sometime on ESPN...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman