Boxing vs. TCMA

[YouKnowWho]

When you

- throw a punch,
- your opponent dodges, or block it.

In boxing:

- you pull your punch back,
- and strike with another hand.

In TCMA:

- you use the same hand or other hand to block your opponent's blocking arm,
- and strike with either the same hand or another hand.

What's the difference between this 2 approaches? Your though?

[bawang]

In TCMA:

- you use the same hand or other hand to block your opponent's blocking arm,
- and strike with either the same hand or another hand.


lie

asfsdf

[Brule]

lie

asfsdf

not lie, troof.

YKH - Not always with Boxing, same hand can throw another punch. ie: double hook (body/head), double jab, uppercut/hook.

[YouKnowWho]

lieasfsdf

The TCMA guy's 1st punch could be a "fake".

[bawang]

The TCMA guy's 1st punch could be a "fake".

I dont understand why you say kung fu doesn't do normal people punching, and say instead kung fu do this ridiculous weird trapping eveyrtime you throw a punch.

[YouKnowWho]

the jab is a lure to open the opponents door. john wang makes it sound like western boxing is retarded down syndrome boxing. I punch you, you punch me.

All jab can be fake whether it's thrown by a boxer or a TCMA guy. The difference is not the 1st punch but "how to deal with your opponent's blocking hand/arm".


YKH - Not always with Boxing, same hand can throw another punch. ie: double hook (body/head), double jab, uppercut/hook.

That's true too.

[bawang]

All jab can be fake whether it's thrown by a boxer or a TCMA guy. The difference is not the 1st punch but "how to deal with your opponent's blocking hand/arm".

theres many ways. how you can say "kung fu do this, boxing do this"?

[YouKnowWho]

theres many ways. how you can say "kung fu do this, boxing do this"?

Have you seen a boxer pulls his opponent into his punch? The boxing gloves won't allow him to do that. Does "switching hands" use in boxing (such as the praying mantis Gou Lou Cai Shou?

[Brule]

Have you seen a boxer pulls his opponent into his punch? The boxing gloves won't allow him to do that. Does "switching hands" use in boxing? I haven't seen that yet.

dirty boxing

[bawang]

Have you seen a boxer pulls his opponent into his punch? The boxing gloves won't allow him to do that. Does "switching hands" use in boxing? I haven't seen that yet.

you said "In boxing: - you pull your punch back, - and strike with another hand."
kung fu do this a lot. this is bread and butter basics jibengong. what is the problem?

[Hebrew Hammer]

In boxing, you will generate more power by throwing with your non blocking hand and, generally speaking. More torque, more energy, you're also typically on the balls of your feet, not always rooted as many styles of TCMA promote. Boxing is all about footwork and the stances are much narrower. The punches tend to be more compact...I'm just comparing to CLF. Obviously you can use boxing style punching in TCMA. When sparring in CLF I added hooks, I love that strike, its not traditional Kung Fu but very effective.

In TCMA you generate power from your hips, dan tien, and rooted feet. In boxing you pivot generating your power shoulders and arms. You can see it in fighters physiques.

Also with TCMA, attacking with two hands or sticky hands is important for applying locks, throws and the like and boxers are never concerned with that. Maintaining contact with your opponent is something I think some TCMA emphasizes over boxing. Boxing and TCMA do have similarities with strategies...attacking at different levels, breaking down structure, deception, distance, counter attacks etc.

[YouKnowWho]

you said "In boxing: - you pull your punch back, - and strike with another hand."
kung fu do this a lot. this is bread and butter basics jibengong. what is the problem?

In TCMA, when you pull you punching hand back, you try to bring something in.

[bawang]

In boxing, you will generate more power by throwing with your non blocking hand and, generally speaking. More torque, more energy, you're also typically on the balls of your feet, not always rooted as many styles of TCMA promote. Boxing is all about footwork and the stances are much narrower. The punches tend to be more compact...I'm just comparing to CLF. Obviously you can use boxing style punching in TCMA. When sparring in CLF I added hooks, I love that strike, its not traditional Kung Fu but very effective.

In TCMA you generate power from your hips, dan tien, and rooted feet. In boxing you pivot generating your power shoulders and arms. You can see it in fighters physiques.

kung fu emphasize pull the hand back just like boxing. that's why you chamber the fist FOO.

When sparring in CLF I added hooks, I love that strike, its not traditional Kung Fu but very effective.

LOL hooks not a traditional kung fu strike


In TCMA, when you pull you punching hand back, you try to bring something in.

in TCMA, when you pull your punching hand back, you just pull it back. longfist is about what is natural. your pre born ability. all that bridging grabbling is unnatural. you see it a lot today in demos but they are fake techniques.

[Hebrew Hammer]

kung fu emphasize pull the hand back just like boxing. that's why you chamber the fist FOO.

LOL hooks not a traditional kung fu strike

Only if you're not using a double strike or two handed block/punch...but you can chamber the fist...but it's usually done at a lower level than boxing, you never bring hands down to your waist to chamber.

As far as hooks, I've not seen them used nor applied in TCMA in the same way boxers do.

[bawang]

As far as hooks, I've not seen them used nor applied in TCMA in the same way boxers do.

hook is a basic technique in kung fu.

[Frost]

In boxing, you will generate more power by throwing with your non blocking hand and, generally speaking. More torque, more energy, you're also typically on the balls of your feet, not always rooted as many styles of TCMA promote. Boxing is all about footwork and the stances are much narrower. The punches tend to be more compact...I'm just comparing to CLF. Obviously you can use boxing style punching in TCMA. When sparring in CLF I added hooks, I love that strike, its not traditional Kung Fu but very effective.

In TCMA you generate power from your hips, dan tien, and rooted feet. In boxing you pivot generating your power shoulders and arms. You can see it in fighters physiques.

Also with TCMA, attacking with two hands or sticky hands is important for applying locks, throws and the like and boxers are never concerned with that. Maintaining contact with your opponent is something I think some TCMA emphasizes over boxing. Boxing and TCMA do have similarities with strategies...attacking at different levels, breaking down structure, deception, distance, counter attacks etc.

what version fo CLF did you do where there is no hook punch? Its in nearly all the CLF sets i know
And as for boxing, well the power is generated through the feet into the hips and out into the arm, just as in CLF where you have to express the power with a moving horse, never just stationary??

[Frost]

hook is a basic technique in kung fu.

yep im a bit surprised that the CLF he did had no hook punch, its in the CLF, hung gar, village silum and even the lung ying i do

[Hebrew Hammer]

He's asking for differences...just from my experiences, I spent much longer training in boxing/kickboxing (3 yrs) than in CLF (1 Year). But I do remember the variation in physical emphasis for training.

All the horse stances CLF and form work really developed my base, my leg strength, flexibility, balance were all much better...the forms do emphasize chambering differently than applied in sparring.

With boxing training, my whole upper body changed, shoulders, chest and arms, more defined, bigger and much improved cardio vs my CLF training. Getting up to 12 3 minute rounds of bag work was an incredible work out. You throw in greater volume. You just have much more repetition, it's a simpler art, and more focused on a particular area. It's all upper body.

[Frost]

He's asking for differences...just from my experiences, I spent much longer training in boxing/kickboxing (3 yrs) than in CLF (1 Year). But I do remember the variation in physical emphasis for training.

All the horse stances CLF and form work really developed my base, my leg strength, flexibility, balance were all much better...the forms do emphasize chambering differently than applied in sparring.

With boxing training, my whole upper body changed, shoulders, chest and arms, more defined, bigger and much improved cardio vs my CLF training. Getting up to 12 3 minute rounds of bag work was an incredible work out. You throw in greater volume. You just have much more repetition, it's a simpler art, and more focused on a particular area. It's all upper body.

your upper body changed because you were hitting things more often so doing resistance training, thers nothing magical there if you worked your CLF for 12x3 min rounds it would have changed too
And this doesnt change the fact that power in boxing comes from the ground up just as it does in TCMA, you simply develop your base differently and its more mobile

[Hebrew Hammer]

what version fo CLF did you do where there is no hook punch? Its in nearly all the CLF sets i know
And as for boxing, well the power is generated through the feet into the hips and out into the arm, just as in CLF where you have to express the power with a moving horse, never just stationary??

My Sifu said it was part of Hung Sing CLF as well, when I broached it with him, but wasn't not emphasized in my training. Again I haven't seen it applied even by other senior students. He did demonstrate a longer hook for me. I believe you guys. Would love to see some vids if you got em.

Yes there is a moving horse and power is generated through the feet but differently, there wasn't an emphasis on keeping the rear foot flat, rooted in Boxing. You push of with the balls of your feet more. If you were to take a boxer and move him into CLF it would seem much more alien to him than if you were to go the other route. Its coached, trained, and applied in another way. The goals may be the same.

So you think the strikes and foot work in CLF and Boxing are the same?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking CLF, I loved it...

[bawang]

Yes there is a moving horse and power is generated through the feet but differently, there wasn't an emphasis on keeping the rear foot flat, rooted in Boxing. You push of with the balls of your feet more. If you were to take a boxer and move him into CLF it would seem much more alien to him than if you were to go the other route. Its coached, trained, and applied in another way. The goals may be the same.

the power generation in clf is exactly the same as in boxing. what you mean is the rhythm is different.

[Hebrew Hammer]

the power generation in clf is exactly the same as in boxing. it feels different because your teacher told you its different. its in your mind.

LOL there in lies most of my failings as a human being.

[David Jamieson]

I box.
I practise TCMA.

Both have the concept of the jab and the feint.

Boxing focuses only on high percentage strikes (jab/cross/hook/uppercut)

TCMA goes down a whole lot of roads as far as variety goes.

Both have the jab/cross/hook and uppercut though.

[Frost]

My Sifu said it was part of Hung Sing CLF as well, when I broached it with him, but wasn't not emphasized in my training. Again I haven't seen it applied even by other senior students. He did demonstrate a longer hook for me. I believe you guys. Would love to see some vids if you got em.

Yes there is a moving horse and power is generated through the feet but differently, there wasn't an emphasis on keeping the rear foot flat, rooted in Boxing. You push of with the balls of your feet more. If you were to take a boxer and move him into CLF it would seem much more alien to him than if you were to go the other route. Its coached, trained, and applied in another way. The goals may be the same.

So you think the strikes and foot work in CLF and Boxing are the same?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking CLF, I loved it...

nope i said the power comes from the floor through the hips and out the arm in the same way, boxing is not just upper body its whole body power directed through the waist and out the arms

CLF has more strikes than boxing but it includes all the standard punches found in boxing: hooks, overhands uppercuts power jabs are all in the forms, how you throw them and the intnent behind them might be different, you aim through the guy with each shot not much feeling out process etc but they are all there, footwork can be different or similar its how you play the game, for instance you can play CLF with a wide stance shifting from side to side generating power from the waist turn and weight movement and an gling round the guy, or you can play it with a more running stance going straight through the guy or in a stance similar to boxing, all of these are found in the sets

[bawang]

shaolin 24 cannons 36 harmonies

wind sweep snow: with left lead, i twitch my right hand, left punch to the face, immediately pull back right hand next to ear.
black tiger claw heart: i left protect down, right hand hits face, left hand hits heart.

dragon send claws: i block your right punch, right hand punch your face, my block your left punch, left hand punch your face.

heartburn: i cover my face with left fist, right hand punch stomach, left hand punch face.

[YouKnowWho]

Boxing focuses only on high percentage strikes (jab/cross/hook/uppercut)

TCMA goes down a whole lot of roads as far as variety goes.

TCMA is more than just a striking art. You can use your punch to set up many thing. Those are not a boxer's concern.

[lkfmdc]

Boxing has more than just basic four (jab, cross, hook, uppercut)

I can jab the body, I can hook the body, I have overhand, rear hook, shovel hook to body..... "pivot punch" was removed a long time ago, but existed at one point back in bareknuckle days, and in bareknuckle wrestling was legal

Many Hsing Yi people say boxing and Hsing Yi are the same. My sifu's comment on essense of Hsing Yi "they hit hard, they only practice a few punches and do it so many times"

Old school CMA had boxing variations above, Lama certainly does. And Old school (and Lama) didn't obseess with so many "kewl things"... too much fluff and flower from ages when no one was really fighting

[mickey]

Greetings,

What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoaE6mPWFIU


mickey

[Hebrew Hammer]

I think it illustrates lots of my points. I watched it once just focusing on his hands and a couple of times just his footwork. He should probably go with decaf in the morning! His footwork aside from kicking, is completely diff than a boxers...I just don't see the similarities that Frost and Bawang emphasizing.

[Frost]

I think it illustrates lots of my points. I watched it once just focusing on his hands and a couple of times just his footwork. He should probably go with decaf in the morning! His footwork aside from kicking, is completely diff than a boxers...I just don't see the similarities that Frost and Bawang emphasizing.

thats hung gar and a very good version, here is an equally good version of CLF forward to 2.55min and what how they drill in sparring and glove on glove work, the footwork is more mobile, is it the same as boxing , no i never said it was but it has the same hand strikes and very high mobile stance work, and generates the power from the ground up just like boxing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syxf4EEAIGE

[bawang]

I just don't see the similarities that Frost and Bawang emphasizing.

because its a form. do u also think u fight in a horse stance lolz

[mickey]

Greetings,

The guy wearing the gray shirt in the CLF clip was using Western boxing. He wasn't that great with it but he was getting over. I find nothing wrong with that. But why attend a TCMA if you are not going to integrate what you have or immerse yourself in the teachings, especially with the fighting. I think that TCMA in this country will re examine western boxing and find that the benefit of real time training will actually improve their traditional techniques.

mickey

[Yum Cha]

I think John is talking about the difference between boxing and 'bridge fighting' or chinese boxing, or short armed southern TCMA, Dirty Boxing, 52 or whatever....

Bawang, you don't have a clue about bridge fighting it appears. You never chamber your fist and you keep your arms in front of you. Once your engage, you stay connected :D
The striking hand becomes the grabbing hand, the rotation of the pull drives the corresponding strike, and on and on. You attack the balance and defence posture as well as the targets you expose.

Remember the Gracie rule, "If someone wants to strike you, or someone wants to grab you, the grabber will win." Nothing about going to ground, just engaging.

If you are doing that, it doesn't mean you don't have to skip the big boxing 4, but they just become less important. IMHO.

[bawang]

I think John is talking about the difference between boxing and 'bridge fighting' or chinese boxing, or short armed southern TCMA, Dirty Boxing, 52 or whatever....


northern kung fu doesn't bridge. there is no word for bridge. there is no drill depicting a bridge.

[YouKnowWho]

northern kung fu doesn't bridge. there is no word for bridge. there is no drill depicting a bridge.
The longfist "采手(Cai Shou) - change blocking into grabbing" and the praying mantis 钩搂采手(Gou Lou Cai Shou) are both bridging.

I just used "bridging" not too long ago.

- I punched.
- my opponent blocked.
- My punching hand became 钩手(Gou Shou) and grabbed on his wrist. My non-punching hand became 搂手(Lou Shou) and grabbed on his elbow.

Because my opponent's blocking, I can sense where is arm was. I "slided my arm along his arm" and reached to his wrist. That's "bridging" by my definition.

[bawang]

Because my opponent's blocking, I can sense where is arm was. I "slided my arm along his arm" and reached to his wrist. That's "bridging" by my definition.

dat call rassling

you said kung fu is not just pull your arm back like jab cross. you said why kung fu doesn't have jab cross combo, it should make into a form. I posted shaolin 24 cannon. 24 jab cross combos. I never argue unless i have proof. it is over. lolz

[Yum Cha]

dat call rassling

Now, si dai, you're getting the good oil, and ignoring it. You're trying to take something you don't know and put it into something you do know...

Mor que? Soi que? Larm Da? Doesn't one of those have something to do with 'bridge' in canto (excuse the poor transliteration).

Trapping is not quite grappling, but stickier than boxing. A lot like checking. People make the mistake of trapping and fighting arms instead of trapping and attacking the target, and that makes it look benign sometimes . Its also made more difficult by gloves.

Its not universal in all TCMA, and of those that use it, some do more than others. Wing chun is the easiest to see, but not the be all and end all by any stretch of the imagination. I'm more familiar with the Pak Mei and SPM styles. CLF has a bit too, but to my mind, more smashing bridges than building them.

I think its got to do with the Hakka arts. Not the chubby drunks from up north.

[Yum Cha]

Bawang,
The reason I quoted Gracie is because if you can find common ground amongst diverse points of view and strategic perspectives, it generally indicates a good idea.

Like watching Ali settle into triangle footwork and root when he delivers big body shots to Foreman. Keeping his heels firmly planted.

All roads lead to the same mountain top.....:p

Bridge fighting is a paradigm shift in combat.
It comes down to this. given the luxury of being able to face off, as opposed to having to recover from a surprise attack, its like a blade fight. It only takes one good cut, you engineer access and you cut. There is no defence, only another opportunity for access. If it doesn't work, you do it again. Bridge, to distraction/light damage and balance attack, to big hit on a soft spot. 3 strikes - and you know the significance of '4'.

[Frost]

Greetings,

The guy wearing the gray shirt in the CLF clip was using Western boxing. He wasn't that great with it but he was getting over. I find nothing wrong with that. But why attend a TCMA if you are not going to integrate what you have or immerse yourself in the teachings, especially with the fighting. I think that TCMA in this country will re examine western boxing and find that the benefit of real time training will actually improve their traditional techniques.

mickey

hang on a minute
I posted CLF has the same punches as boxing and can look similar then post a training clip from a well-known CLF school and you are arguing one of the guys in the clip is doing a bad imitation of boxing…cant you see the irony there?
What about the guy he is sparring, simply because his footwork isn’t as fast its NOT boxing then?? what about phillip Ngs clip at 2.55 mark where he is showing footwork is that boxing or CLF??………or the other 6 or so guys also sparring what art are they doing…..

[Frost]

Now, si dai, you're getting the good oil, and ignoring it. You're trying to take something you don't know and put it into something you do know...

Mor que? Soi que? Larm Da? Doesn't one of those have something to do with 'bridge' in canto (excuse the poor transliteration).

Trapping is not quite grappling, but stickier than boxing. A lot like checking. People make the mistake of trapping and fighting arms instead of trapping and attacking the target, and that makes it look benign sometimes . Its also made more difficult by gloves.

Its not universal in all TCMA, and of those that use it, some do more than others. Wing chun is the easiest to see, but not the be all and end all by any stretch of the imagination. I'm more familiar with the Pak Mei and SPM styles. CLF has a bit too, but to my mind, more smashing bridges than building them.

I think its got to do with the Hakka arts. Not the chubby drunks from up north.

And you are also taking something out of context, when Bawang responds to john and says its wrestling that’s because it is from their perspective, bridging as you describe it is a uniquely southern/hakka thing so whilst Bawang is turning something he doenst know into something he does (in your words), so are you, john is a northern longfist and mantis person and a grappler I think the only southern art he has done is a little wing chun so it would be gripping from a grappling thowing perspective rather than a bridging to hit art for him wouldn’t it??

[mickey]

Greetings,

Frost,

I only mentioned that person. No one else was doing that. Instead of looking at him, I focussed on the others. Yes, the punches can look similar. I believe as one looks to develop speed and power in their techniques, one will find considerable overlap simply because of the biomechanics of movement.

mickey

[David Jamieson]

TCMA is more than just a striking art. You can use your punch to set up many thing. Those are not a boxer's concern.

For sure. TCMA isn't a tight regulated sport like boxing. It takes on many different colors and coats and what's inside a tcma style changes from style to style.

Boxing, you'll get pretty much the same curriculum wherever you go because it works towards the venue it is used in.

That's just how it is.

@Dave. I agree there is more than just 4 basics. But everything is built off of those distance, height, repetition, plains (body/head) and so on.
Also, guys have different ways of throwing those and different ways of generating power. Some guys twist and generate the power with the waist (Ali did this a lot), other guys plant and generate the power of the back leg through the ground and through the body (Larry Holmes did this kind of PG) and everything in between those.

It's all good if the guy doing it understands. You can get as much out of each as you want to work for.

[MightyB]

just practice more and spar using the techniques you know like the clf guys in the clip. and if you see a drill and a technique that you like, steal it for yourself.

this thread's getting stupid.

[Frost]

just practice more and spar using the techniques you know like the clf guys in the clip. and if you see a drill and a technique that you like, steal it for yourself.

this thread's getting stupid.

getting,..... it started off on a very stange slant and just carried on

[MightyB]

getting,..... it started off on a very stange slant and just carried on

I think it would be a more productive thread if we reframed it into "is there anything we can learn or incorporate from western boxing to make TCMA better?"

[Frost]

I think it would be a more productive thread if we reframed it into "is there anything we can learn or incorporate from western boxing to make TCMA better?"

The committee that created sanda called and what there thread back, they said they nicked the best bits from boxing over half a century ago :)

[MightyB]

The committee that created sanda called and what there thread back, they said they nicked the best bits from boxing over half a century ago :)

LOL -


I'm all in for trapping in a boxing like environment regardless of what Bawang says by stealing these drills (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4ne4nT2EAY).


Love the youtube.

[Frost]

LOL -


I'm all in for trapping in a boxing like environment regardless of what Bawang says by stealing these drills (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4ne4nT2EAY).


Love the youtube.

that's not a boxing like environment that's a jkd cluster fck missmash of boxing and stuff that will not work under pressure because no one stands there and blocks like that

[MightyB]

that's not a boxing like environment that's a jkd cluster fck missmash of boxing and stuff that will not work under pressure because no one stands there and blocks like that

talking about using focus mitts with traps, first slowly and then gradually adding speed - for whatever reason, I never thought of doing it before.

you're right, it's not boxing like, but I'm always up for new ideas for drills.

[bawang]

Trapping is not quite grappling, but stickier than boxing.

after 20 years of humiliation to mma, you want to bring this sh1t again, yes?

that's not a boxing like environment that's a jkd cluster fck missmash of boxing and stuff that will not work under pressure because no one stands there and blocks like that

these people have memory span of goldfish. every time mma beat up kung fu they nod their head and praise mma, then turn around and talk about deadly kung fu..

[Frost]

talking about using focus mitts with traps, first slowly and then gradually adding speed - for whatever reason, I never thought of doing it before.

you're right, it's not boxing like, but I'm always up for new ideas for drills.

the problem is you can't pull traps off like that unless the guy you are fighting is a wing chun/ jkd guy so if it doesn't work the same way you drill it are the drills worthwhile? Tapping to me means clearing a path so I can control his centre of gravity and hit him not play paticake like that

[Frost]

after 20 years of humiliation to mma, you want to bring this sh1t again, yes?


these people have memory span of goldfish. every time mma beat up kung fu they nod their head and praise mma, then turn around and talk about deadly kung fu.

trapping is clinch fighting where for some strange reason both sides agree to control and hit and not throw or actually clinch.....what happens when one party doesn't agree to those rules...?? See the last 20 years off MMA :)

[bawang]

the problem is you can't pull traps off like that unless the guy you are fighting is a wing chun/ jkd guy so if it doesn't work the same way you drill it are the drills worthwhile? Tapping to me means clearing a path so I can control his centre of gravity and hit him not play paticake like that

when u try to bridge and trap u get clinched. then u either get knocked on ur ass by elbow and knee or get slammed.

trapping is clinch fighting where for some strange reason both sides agree to control and hit and not throw or actually clinch.....what happens when one party doesn't agree to those rules...?? See the last 20 years off MMA :)

its hard for these people to think with a clear head. kung fu cult conditioning fill them with smokes and mirrors.

it all depends on if ur sifu is the type of "believe me" or if he is "find out for yourself"

[MightyB]

whatever guys - do what you like.

trapping and set ups, at least as how I define it being a mantis guy works. And I see value in using focus mitts.

---

Talk about boxing, one of the best things I've ever heard from a boxer is simply this "not every punch is a knockout punch".

[bawang]

whatever guys - do what you like.



no, you are not going to do what you like. you are going to do what you should.

[Frost]

when u try to bridge and trap u get clinched. then u either get knocked on ur ass by elbow and knee or get slammed.

southern kung fu practice bridging because southern kung fu trains grappling.

my current sifus first art was wing chun (taught by combat vets who escaped vietnam to north America) after several months training it he introduced clf into the mix. Getting clobbered by hooks and uppercuts as I attempted to bridge and control the centre was an eye opener now bridging means something different to me , it means clinching, it means stomping on his feet ramming through his centre to off balance and hitting him hard before clinching and kneeing or throwing him

[MightyB]

the problem is you can't pull traps off like that unless the guy you are fighting is a wing chun/ jkd guy so if it doesn't work the same way you drill it are the drills worthwhile? Tapping to me means clearing a path so I can control his centre of gravity and hit him not play paticake like that

paticake on mitts is simply that - it's paticake meant more for rhythm and flow, especially if it's based on a close range back fist.

Not every punch is a knockout, sometimes you throw a punch to create an opening for a knockout.

[Frost]

paticake on mitts is simply that - it's paticake meant more for rhythm and flow, especially if it's based on a close range back fist.

Not every punch is a knockout, sometimes you throw a punch to create an opening for a knockout.

I had an MMA coach who spent months teaching patticake pad work. Drills then end result was everyone got the rhythm of the drill and in sparring got hit because they looked for a rhythm that wasn't there and the patticake drills had developed very bad habitts

[MightyB]

I had an MMA coach who spent months teaching patticake pad work. Drills then end result was everyone got the rhythm of the drill and in sparring got hit because they looked for a rhythm that wasn't there and the patticake drills had developed very bad habitts

the sparring cleaned it up. Now they have rhythm, and the knowledge in how to use it.

[Frost]

the sparring cleaned it up. Now they have rhythm, and the knowledge in how to use it.

nope the sparring showedthem the mistakes build from patticake stuff, hands dropping as they tried to remember the order of hits, static footwork due to too many shots in a combination, unrealistic sense of space and distance as the feeder would crowd and come and meet the punches (as always happens in patticake drills) luckily sparring was introduced back after a few months of this stuff and showed how worse not better they had got,

[MightyB]

nope the sparring showedthem the mistakes build from patticake stuff, hands dropping as they tried to remember the order of hits, static footwork due to too many shots in a combination, unrealistic sense of space and distance as the feeder would crowd and come and meet the punches (as always happens in patticake drills) luckily sparring was introduced back after a few months of this stuff and showed how worse not better they had got,

Well that sucks and it was a bad experience for you guys. Not everyone has the same approach with the "paticake" drills. Maybe it's a WC thing.

---

this is my boxer friend who I play paticake with
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/970049_372176712884581_1468513286_n.jpg

Of course no one relies on just one option
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/971748_372178982884354_1747517561_n.jpg

the paticake drills work in our neck of the woods. But we realize we're weekend warrior amateurs and no one has any delusions about being in the UFC. That's the problem with most TCMA people. Unrealistic expectations and comparisons.

If it works for you and you like it, do it. If you see value in something and can get it to work, do it. If not - don't. I like trapping and set ups.

---

PS, I don't f*ck with that guy too much - he's faster than h*ll and waaaayyyyy tougher than me. But I do enjoy working out and sparring with him when I get the chance. I just have to remind him that I'm an old poosey and he has to take it easy on me.

[lkfmdc]

I had an MMA coach who spent months teaching patticake pad work. Drills then end result was everyone got the rhythm of the drill and in sparring got hit because they looked for a rhythm that wasn't there and the patticake drills had developed very bad habitts

Mayweather Sr put his pittipatt craptacular pad work on a video for Ringside and these days every so called coach tries to immitate it,,,, it is crap in boxing and even worse for other combat sports...

but ignorant people are easily impressed (and manipulated)

[lkfmdc]

the problem is you can't pull traps off like that unless the guy you are fighting is a wing chun/ jkd guy so if it doesn't work the same way you drill it are the drills worthwhile? Tapping to me means clearing a path so I can control his centre of gravity and hit him not play paticake like that

any trapping and/or bridging is dependent upon the other guy fighting in that structure... since most people do not fight that way it has lost relevance for the most part

[MightyB]

Just to be clear...
the guy in my photos doesn't do trapping as he has no experience in it, but he's the guy who says not every punch is a knockout punch - meaning sometimes a strike is a set up for a better strike.

His drills aren't weak or slappy (he is the striking coach at the club where I used to hang out before I moved) and he's trained many successful amateur MMA fighters.

but I'll reiterate, not every punch is a knockout punch.

[lkfmdc]

3 seconds to find a perfect example of the nonsense I was talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv9Vgpfx2Ks

[MightyB]

3 seconds to find a perfect example of the nonsense I was talking about

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv9Vgpfx2Ks

That's the first I've ever seen anything like that - So if that's paticake, then I haven't seen or done paticake.

The padwork I'm familiar with is "simpler". 2, 3 maybe up to 4 punch combinations with the guy calling out which combo using numbers. Plus it's done with a lot more power.

[bawang]

theres no reason for obseesive love of bridging and trapping, other than showing how loyal and attached you are to your sifu. martial art is not a religion. my loyalty is not to my sifu, my loyaly is to Chinese martial arts.

[lkfmdc]

LIke I said, tons of people trying to copy Maywether Sr....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLOurs1aDhI

that's the original, ok for amateur boxing, highly questionable for pro, worthless for Muay Thai, MMA, etc

now everyone and their dog want to do this crap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPT1wsZACdY

[lkfmdc]

theres no reason for obseesive love of bridging and trapping, other than showing how loyal and attached you are to your sifu. martial art is not a religion. my loyalty is not to my sifu, my loyaly is to Chinese martial arts.

silly boy, martial arts IS religion..... that is precisely the problem

[lkfmdc]

ha hah hah

this was linked the maywether video, no idea why, well, except it applie to this thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HVAUN1pMTs

[MightyB]

theres no reason for obseesive love of bridging and trapping, other than showing how loyal and attached you are to your sifu. martial art is not a religion. my loyalty is not to my sifu, my loyaly is to Chinese martial arts.

The first time you spontaneously diu sau in sparring, you're hooked.

[lkfmdc]

diu nei diu sau :p

[MightyB]

diu nei diu sau :p

LOL - censor didn't catch that one :D

[bawang]

The first time you spontaneously diu sau in sparring, you're hooked.

I dont know what that is. I dont speak viet.

[lkfmdc]

LOL - censor didn't catch that one :D

I think Gene only speaks Mandarin ;)

[lkfmdc]

I dont know what that is. I dont speak viet.

you don't speak it all or know it all my friend

[bawang]

you don't speak it all or know it all my friend

if it sounds like chicken clucking, its all viet to me.

[YouKnowWho]

I do believe that

bridge = clinch

It's easier to see from the grappling side. It may not be that easy to see from a striking side. It's very nature to get into clinch from WC sticky hand or Taiji push hand. The interest thing is, a striker may not like to get into clinch, but if he can't stop his opponent from doing that, he will get into clinch no matter he likes it or not.

[Frost]

Mayweather Sr put his pittipatt craptacular pad work on a video for Ringside and these days every so called coach tries to immitate it,,,, it is crap in boxing and even worse for other combat sports...

but ignorant people are easily impressed (and manipulated)

if i could i would vote and like for this,

[Frost]

That's the first I've ever seen anything like that - So if that's paticake, then I haven't seen or done paticake.

The padwork I'm familiar with is "simpler". 2, 3 maybe up to 4 punch combinations with the guy calling out which combo using numbers. Plus it's done with a lot more power.

then you are doing pad work, there is a difference as you can see

personally for MMA, its thai pads for power, and working glove against glove, hook and jab pads have their place but it takes a long time to become a good feeder of the pads, easier to stick on 14oz boxing gloves shell up and let the other guy work his combinations on you

[Frost]

I do believe that

bridge = clinch

It's easier to see from the grappling side. It may not be that easy to see from a striking side. It's very nature to get into clinch from WC sticky hand or Taiji push hand. The interest thing is, a striker may not like to get into clinch, but if he can't stop his opponent from doing that, he will get into clinch no matter he likes it or not.

which is a different view from what pakmei and other hakka arts do

[YouKnowWho]

In striking environment, it's easy to get into clinch no matter you like it or not. When your opponent throws a right and left, you are already in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbRQ0-x9hdk

[Frost]

It's easy to get into clinch in a full contact environment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbRQ0-x9hdk

of course it is, hence my comment bridging as seen in most southern arts only really works when both parties agree to allow it, other wise what happened in your clip is the usual result :)

[goju]

Mayweather Sr put his pittipatt craptacular pad work on a video for Ringside and these days every so called coach tries to immitate it,,,, it is crap in boxing and even worse for other combat sports...

but ignorant people are easily impressed (and manipulated)

Maybe im not reading this right are you saying the mayweathers family padwork is craptacular? I mean i could see how its silly for someone to watch the vid then think they can replicate it with out having their style or attributes or remotely understand what the drills are for, But outside of that the padwork makes perfect sense for their delivery system

[mawali]

In the marketplace of general boxing, Western boxing is far more adaptable with the greater martial sport. Next comes grappling and any wrestling adaption is a great addition:D

[wenshu]

Mayweather Sr put his pittipatt craptacular pad work on a video for Ringside and these days every so called coach tries to immitate it,,,, it is crap in boxing and even worse for other combat sports...

but ignorant people are easily impressed (and manipulated)

That patticake **** is flash for the cameras during media hype day. Mayweather sure as **** doesn't really train like that.

[Raipizo]

I can see it being used for duck, weaving and footwork but that's about it. They're hardly even tapping the pads when they do hit, where's their power at?

[Yum Cha]

And you are also taking something out of context, when Bawang responds to john and says its wrestling that’s because it is from their perspective, bridging as you describe it is a uniquely southern/hakka thing so whilst Bawang is turning something he doenst know into something he does (in your words), so are you, john is a northern longfist and mantis person and a grappler I think the only southern art he has done is a little wing chun so it would be gripping from a grappling thowing perspective rather than a bridging to hit art for him wouldn’t it??

Well, to me, the common ground between John's stuff and mind is the bridge. He grapples and throws, I strike more than throw, its just the concept of bridge and cross, as opposed to pummel to submission, which is what I thought john was on about. <shrugs>

[Yum Cha]

.....Getting clobbered by hooks and uppercuts as I attempted to bridge and control the centre was an eye opener now bridging means something different to me , it means clinching, it means stomping on his feet ramming through his centre to off balance and hitting him hard before clinching and kneeing or throwing him

Getting in a good head butt is a nice touch too...

Frost gets it....

[Syn7]

I love the clinch. Let's me use more tools!

[YouKnowWho]

This issue has bothered me lately. In longfist, I spend a lot of training time to repeat the drill as showing in the folllowing picture. It's just a simple "cross" but done in a low bow-arrow stance.

http://imageshack.us/a/img571/3836/punchz.jpg

All my life, I have never be able to punch my opponent like this (low bow-arrow stance). If I still train this drill today, I have to ask myself an honest question. If I have never used this move in combat, and also I may never use this in combat for the rest of my life, why am I wasting my training time to train this move for?

I can see that the low bow-arrow stance is good to build up the foundation such as "leg strength". But trying to build up "foundation" when I have reached to my medicare age just make no sense IMO. Why the "cross" used in higher stance doesn't exist in both longfist and praying mantis system? In other words, why the "boxing combat posture" doesn't exist in the forms of some TCMA systems? Did the ancient form creators ever fight? The more that I think about this, the less that I have respect to the ancient form creators.

Many people when they have reached to their medicare age, they may only care about "health" and not "combat". The older that I'm, the more that I can't afford to waste my training time on useless stuff.

[-N-]

All my life, I have never be able to punch my opponent like this (low bow-arrow stance). If I still train this drill today, I have to ask myself an honest question. If I have never used this move in combat, and also I may never use this in combat for the rest of my life, why am I wasting my training time to train this move for?

I can see that the low bow-arrow stance is good to build up the foundation such as "leg strength". But trying to build up "foundation" when I have reached to my medicare age just make no sense IMO. Why the "cross" used in higher stance doesn't exist in both longfist and praying mantis system? In other words, why the "boxing combat posture" doesn't exist in the forms of some TCMA systems?

Are you trying to ask a rhetorical question?

Why would someone waste their time on doing deadlifts or squats if they are never going to hit their opponent with one?

Form is not fighting. But it does document the body mechanics and range of motion for generating power.

Training involves working to an extreme to develop ability. In actual usage, it will be easy when you don't need to go as far. If you can do long deep bow stance cross quickly and with agility, you can have the range of motion and coordination to run down your opponent with momentum. Most people don't put it together that way though.

In the other discussion about using momentum... the cross followup from the jump roundhouse is basically your deep bow stance cross done in fighting context, instead of mechanically like a beginner does a form.

Praying Mantis has cross in high stance. You just might not see it in form. Actually you will see single goose exits formation done in high stance in form.

[-N-]

This issue has bothered me lately. In longfist, I spend a lot of training time to repeat the drill as showing in the folllowing picture. It's just a simple "cross" but done in a low bow-arrow stance.

http://imageshack.us/a/img571/3836/punchz.jpg

All my life, I have never be able to punch my opponent like this (low bow-arrow stance).

How do you train this technique specifically?

Statically and by yourself? Doing as a line drill and stepping with each punch?

That is the beginner way just for learning the basic idea.

I pair up students and make them punch each other.

Start them far enough apart so that the attacker has to take a big lunge step to reach and torque the punch in.

This makes the student develop nontelegraphic explosive footwork with good range of motion. This is what it take to overrun the opponent.

Step, lunge, cross, and continue to followup the footwork momentum. This is how to start teaching the students to build combinations using momentum.

Even this is just a training stage. They need to move on to sparring after they get the basic idea of closing the distance and continuing the attack.

[yutyeesam]

This issue has bothered me lately. In longfist, I spend a lot of training time to repeat the drill as showing in the folllowing picture. It's just a simple "cross" but done in a low bow-arrow stance.

http://imageshack.us/a/img571/3836/punchz.jpg

All my life, I have never be able to punch my opponent like this (low bow-arrow stance). If I still train this drill today, I have to ask myself an honest question. If I have never used this move in combat, and also I may never use this in combat for the rest of my life, why am I wasting my training time to train this move for?

I can see that the low bow-arrow stance is good to build up the foundation such as "leg strength". But trying to build up "foundation" when I have reached to my medicare age just make no sense IMO. Why the "cross" used in higher stance doesn't exist in both longfist and praying mantis system? In other words, why the "boxing combat posture" doesn't exist in the forms of some TCMA systems? Did the ancient form creators ever fight? The more that I think about this, the less that I have respect to the ancient form creators.

Many people when they have reached to their medicare age, they may only care about "health" and not "combat". The older that I'm, the more that I can't afford to waste my training time on useless stuff.

We call it "Chuen Sum Choy", or piercing heart punch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsuNEws8w7Q&feature=c4-overview-vl&list=PLB5C8D51CA0804A4E

[B.Tunks]

TLQ definitely has cross in high 'stance'. All strikes can be delivered from either low, middle or high frame. In actual use, cross in dengshan/gong bu hits the same way boxing cross hits, i.e prior to full extension. Legs (and rest of body) do not end up in bow stance position as this is the exagerrated/fully extended post strike position - equivalent to 'punching through' the target. Pretty much every strike in TLQ should be delivered from the xiao dengshan, zhong or yuhuan shi (lesser mountain climbing, middle and jade ring). In fighting, footwork is transitional with almost no apparent 'stances' beyond the above mentioned, which funnily enough, fall somewhere between boxing and wrestling stance.

[YouKnowWho]

Form is not fighting. ...

The low bow-arrow stance

http://imageshack.us/a/img571/3836/punchz.jpg

is important in the throwing art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33mIS2ctC_w

Whether it's important in the striking art or not, that can be an interest discussion.

You can create a form that's the same as fighting.

If you remove partner from partner drills, you will get solo drills. If you link solo drills into a form, you will get a form that's the same as fighting. Since you will not use low bow-arrow stance in partner drills, your solo drills won't contain low bow-arrow stance. Your final form will not contain low bow-arrow stance either.

拳有練法、打法、演法（表演）三种变化 (form can be trained in 3 different ways).

- foundation training,
- combat training,
- performance.

The low bow-arrow stance is for foundation training and performance. It's not for combat training.

[-N-]

Since you will not use low bow-arrow stance in partner drills, your solo drills won't contain low bow-arrow stance. Your final form will not contain low bow-arrow stance either.

You can use low bow-arrow stance in partner drill as foundation training though.

[Kellen Bassette]

Talk about boxing, one of the best things I've ever heard from a boxer is simply this "not every punch is a knockout punch".

Best thing I ever heard from a boxer was, "It's a boxing match. Your going to get hit."

[crazedjustice88]

YouKnowWho:

I have only ever used that technique once, and it was just the simple reverse punch. My friend was cradled up in his muy thai defence and it just came out and it broke his defense. Other that that? I have never used it. Just because you have never used the technique doesn't mean that its not good. Maybe your body just prefers another technique. I see that with my sihing. He uses techniques that my body doesn't like and vice versa. But then again this is just my opinion and I could be TOTALLY wrong hahaha.

[Syn7]

What do you mean by "body doesn't like"?


As a youth I was heavily involved in dance. I would get into these zones and patterns and when I would go to learn something new, often it felt counter intuitive because it had a different rhythm, diff transitions etc... I found that simply putting in the time would fix that up real quick. You go from "wtf, this just isn't working out" and then it just clicks, you get it, and you end up wondering why it felt so wrong before when now it feels so right. And I don't even mean with just the complicated stuff, sometimes it was just a minor variation of a 6 step or something really basic like that.

Personally, I like it when I'm taken out of my comfort zone and forced to change my step. To me, that is real progress. Not that there is anything wrong with sticking with what works for you, I'm just sayin... you can break that pattern if you put in the time and effort.

[crazedjustice88]

What do you mean by "body doesn't like"?


As a youth I was heavily involved in dance. I would get into these zones and patterns and when I would go to learn something new, often it felt counter intuitive because it had a different rhythm, diff transitions etc... I found that simply putting in the time would fix that up real quick. You go from "wtf, this just isn't working out" and then it just clicks, you get it, and you end up wondering why it felt so wrong before when now it feels so right. And I don't even mean with just the complicated stuff, sometimes it was just a minor variation of a 6 step or something really basic like that.

Personally, I like it when I'm taken out of my comfort zone and forced to change my step. To me, that is real progress. Not that there is anything wrong with sticking with what works for you, I'm just sayin... you can break that pattern if you put in the time and effort.
Well of course. It all depends on what and how you train. But there are some techniques your body will pull out under stress and others it won't. My sihing can't use the shovel hand due to his wrist not being as flexible and even though he trains it, it doesn't come out. It does for me. Because of how much shorter my sihing is, he can get quicker combos due to his arm length. My arms are longer, so when I try to do those techniques they just aren't as quick as his.

That's what I mean. Sometimes genetic variation leads to favoring something's over others. That's just common sense.

I hope I was able to get my point across without speaking in circles.

[YouKnowWho]

What do you mean by "body doesn't like"?

I like to use toes push kick. I don't like to use heel kick. The "heel kick" is just a bit too short for me. I did spend a lot of training time for my heel kick. It's a big waste that I train it but I don't like to use it. It makes no sense at all.

[crazedjustice88]

I like to use toes push kick. I don't like to use heel kick. The "heel kick" is just a bit too short for me. I did spend a lot of training time for my heel kick. It's a big waste that I train it but I don't like to use it. It makes no sense at all.

My man...hahaha that's what I was meaning. Thanks for clarifying by the by.

[Kellen Bassette]

I like to use toes push kick. I don't like to use heel kick. The "heel kick" is just a bit too short for me. I did spend a lot of training time for my heel kick. It's a big waste that I train it but I don't like to use it. It makes no sense at all.

I prefer to use the toe, (ball of the foot,) as well. Heel is stronger, but toe has greater range. I am usually shorter than my opponents so I need that extra reach to control distance. But I like to use heel to the legs, less risk of injury if I hit the knee or shin. Sometimes I like a technique only for one specific application.

[Syn7]

Well of course. It all depends on what and how you train. But there are some techniques your body will pull out under stress and others it won't. My sihing can't use the shovel hand due to his wrist not being as flexible and even though he trains it, it doesn't come out. It does for me. Because of how much shorter my sihing is, he can get quicker combos due to his arm length. My arms are longer, so when I try to do those techniques they just aren't as quick as his.

That's what I mean. Sometimes genetic variation leads to favoring something's over others. That's just common sense.

I hope I was able to get my point across without speaking in circles.

Oh I hear you there. I have friends that can do crazy stuff that I simply am not strong enough or flexible enough to pull off. A friend of mine was in a car accident and broke her back and healed in such a way that she is limited in her movement. It's not that it hurts, she just doesn't bend that way and it doesn't matter how much effort she puts in, it just isn't going to happen. Her only option would be like a surgical rebreak/set situation that would involve like a year of healing and it just isn't worth it for her.

[Syn7]

I like to use toes push kick. I don't like to use heel kick. The "heel kick" is just a bit too short for me. I did spend a lot of training time for my heel kick. It's a big waste that I train it but I don't like to use it. It makes no sense at all.


I prefer to use the toe, (ball of the foot,) as well. Heel is stronger, but toe has greater range. I am usually shorter than my opponents so I need that extra reach to control distance. But I like to use heel to the legs, less risk of injury if I hit the knee or shin. Sometimes I like a technique only for one specific application.

Yah, I'm the same. I can use my heal, I just don't. Preference, I guess.

[crazedjustice88]

Oh I hear you there. I have friends that can do crazy stuff that I simply am not strong enough or flexible enough to pull off. A friend of mine was in a car accident and broke her back and healed in such a way that she is limited in her movement. It's not that it hurts, she just doesn't bend that way and it doesn't matter how much effort she puts in, it just isn't going to happen. Her only option would be like a surgical rebreak/set situation that would involve like a year of healing and it just isn't worth it for her.

Yeah, sorry I couldn't word it correctly before. But that's pretty much my point haha