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WC1277
08-02-2013, 02:29 AM
Chum kiu teaches the yin/yang of movement. A balanced rotation of movement that nurtures the "sinking" of the elbow. There is a horizontal rotation, a vertical rotation, a central axis line and footwork that corresponds. This post is not meant to be a 'bible' but a general description of chum kiu movement principles.

In relation to arm movement a very simple but important principle applies. For the horizontal axis the centerline is the zero point. For every horizontal motion you go left or right of that zero point, the next motion must come back to that zero point. The vertical axis is similar but follows more of an ellipse type shape and the zero point is the intersect with the horizontal. So for every vertical motion that goes up or down, the next movement must come back to zero.

Now, the difficult part to explain. I'm only going to explain the 'active' side of the following rotation but do know that there's a passive function too.

For every "active" motion you do your central axis rotation must rotate with the active arm side so that the shoulder is forward on that side. Your footwork, to support this, must turn and slightly brace forward to the opposite side of the "active" arm. So, for instance, if your right arm is "active" your right shoulder side will come forward and your feet will turn to the left and the left foot will move slightly forward simultaneously.

Ok good, everyone got that? ;)

I challenge you to this test of Chum Kiu movement and tell me it doesn't open your eyes:

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Do poon sau(regular chi sao motion) with a partner

You know how you can do that lop sau where you lop your partners fok underneath your bong? Try this instead.

Just like you were going to lop, instead(just for simplicity) shoot your tan into that space instead. Do it with the principles I outlined above. So that means: treat your tan as "active". Rotate the central axis line and adjust your footwork. Notice how you're kind of in a 'balanced' forward facing stance now?

Now the principle for a horizontal movement is you must return to the zero point, right? From this position you're currently in: Now switch to a lop(although just contact with the forearm is fine such as an elbow down lan sau) from your tan and rotate back into the center while flipping your footwork to support the "new" active arm, your punch.

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Ask your partner how powerful it felt. How powerful did it feel to you? Effortless force, right? Try it with a different 'balance', not as strong, right? I guarantee there's not a person on this forum, PB boys included, that won't have a light bulb go off. This rotation does not need hand shapes to work either. While there's other "details" that can help, if you are truly "sinking" your elbow, you are following these principles of movement and can apply them any way, gloves included(Graham;))

That is Chum Kiu movement in a nutshell and I beg of you to try it. You won't be let down.;)

Here is a list of the 20 hand motions. Try them all out but remember the horizontal and vertical principles in relation. This is applies to both your "block" and "attack".

The 20 hand motions:

Tan
Pak
Lop
Bong
Lan
Biu
Jum
Wu
Huen
Inside Jut
Outside Jut
Gum
Fak
Pow
Gaan
Ding
Haan
Low Bong
Jong
Kau

Graham H
08-02-2013, 02:35 AM
I'm glad you put my name in there because now I can respond........

Basically that has got to be the worse explanation of Chum Kiu I have ever read in my whole time in Ving Tsun.

I'm sure you will have your fanboys though. Joy perhaps.

WC1277
08-02-2013, 02:41 AM
I'm glad you put my name in there because now I can respond........

Basically that has got to be the worse explanation of Chum Kiu I have ever read in my whole time in Ving Tsun.

I'm sure you will have your fanboys though. Joy perhaps.

Why don't you try it?

btw it's not an "explanation" of chum kiu. It's a description of "some" principles of chum kiu movement and a challenge to try it. You guys keep insisting a balanced structure is irrelevant but that couldn't be further from the truth. Why don't you just try it. You'll understand then and you'll see that you've done it here and there all along without knowing.

Graham H
08-02-2013, 02:58 AM
Why don't you try it?

btw it's not an "explanation" of chum kiu. It's a description of "some" principles of chum kiu movement and a challenge to try it. You guys keep insisting a balanced structure is irrelevant but that couldn't be further from the truth. Why don't you just try it. You'll understand then and you'll see that you've done it here and there all along without knowing.

Ok I retract my statement your honor and I would like to offer this one to the court....

That has got to be the worst post on Chum Kiu principles I have ever read :D

Graham H
08-02-2013, 03:12 AM
... You still don't have the Cow Sao moooooooove. (cant believe no one congratulated me on that one in the other thread)

Congratulations! :D

WC1277
08-02-2013, 03:20 AM
..er....no sorry. No light bulb here. :)

WC1277, I know it is difficult to explain motions and technique using written words and I appreciate you have made the effort to explain your ideas.
The purpose and meaning of CK in my lineage (along with the rest of the system), is very simple and clear, and your ideas seem absurdly complex and intricate in comparison.
Perhaps a youtube clip might make it clearer? Can I ask where you got all this from?
I haven't come across this in other previous lineages.




Wow! 20 hand motions!.....Should I have motion count envy?
Again some new to me.
Gam, haan, jong?...... Pow!....sounds like a belter! :)


... You still don't have the Cow Sao moooooooove. (cant believe no one congratulated me on that one in the other thread)

Gam should of been Gum. I'll correct it....

Honestly man, if you're not going to even try it, why start? I don't think I could of made the "challenge" any more simple. I've seen PB use this motion. From the sounds of his students though, it must be unintentional on his part. What's complex about it anyway? It's natural movement regardless of Chum Kiu. And the few principles I stated was to help anyone who actually does the challenge. Were they really that complicated!

wingchunIan
08-02-2013, 05:20 AM
I know its not the point of the original article but can you describe Pow, Haan and Jong. Not names I'm familiar with so wondering if they are completely different movements or just different names. Also can you explain the distinction you make between inside jut, outside jut and lap sao.

tc101
08-02-2013, 06:36 AM
The purpose and meaning of CK in my lineage (along with the rest of the system), is very simple and clear, and your ideas seem absurdly complex and intricate in comparison.


I completely agree. His posts are a good example of the over intellectualizing of a relatively simple fighting strategy and skill set.

Vajramusti
08-02-2013, 08:33 AM
Well to me, I found it baffling! :D
I have been re reading and looking at for example, my pivoting bong/wu from CK, and trying to fathom what the heck are my axis, zero point, active and passive etc. and what I should be doing.
I'm not being funny here, I am genuinely intregued as to how you see things. :confused: :)

Trevor.
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WC 1277 is far more generous than I am putting all that up. I dont know him but I know what he is saying.There are atleast 15 people in Tucson who have gone through the development and can use/apply the skills. I expected the responses.

Vajramusti
08-02-2013, 08:40 AM
I know its not the point of the original article but can you describe Pow, Haan and Jong. Not names I'm familiar with so wondering if they are completely different movements or just different names. Also can you explain the distinction you make between inside jut, outside jut and lap sao.
--------------------------------------------
Ian

a pow is an accelerated sweep up wards and forward-in the slt-

Han is a power hit downward-in the slt its there in the two hand section

jong is the first movement on the jong.

hope that helps

Wayfaring
08-02-2013, 08:44 AM
I completely agree. His posts are a good example of the over intellectualizing of a relatively simple fighting strategy and skill set.

Well, either that or the drill he is explaining is really hard to understand without hands on.

I mean SNT is more static and CK is the first place you start to experience angles and turning rotational concepts mostly.

WC1277
08-02-2013, 11:15 AM
Well to me, I found it baffling! :D
I have been re reading and looking at for example, my pivoting bong/wu from CK, and trying to fathom what the heck are my axis, zero point, active and passive etc. and what I should be doing.
I'm not being funny here, I am genuinely intregued as to how you see things. :confused: :)

Trevor.

To understand the force vector just start at the second part of the drill then.

For Instance:

- Have your partner just have an extended(bent elbow) left arm.

- Place yourself so that your left arm tan is intersecting on his outside, pointing no further out than his shoulder line.

- Adjust your stance so that your feet are turned to the right and your right foot is slightly forward.

- Make sure your tan side shoulder is rotated slightly forward

- You are now in essentially a forward facing "balanced" stance slightly faced off center of your partner, right?

- I hope you know "inside facing" footwork but if you don't:

- Now 'reface' your partner and turn your tan into anything really, just flip it essentially so that the out side forearm bone is now in contact.

- 'Reface' by switching your stance to the opposite, same position as above, while driving your "right" arm into their center.(inside facing)

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I'm sure you've experienced this force vector before while trying to reface, most likely you were lucky with the "balance" of your structure. What Chum Kiu movement teaches is that if you treat all your movement in a balanced way following the principles I laid out in the first post, anytime you reface you're structure will create an optimal force vector.

Hope that helps

WC1277
08-02-2013, 01:48 PM
btw if you do this balanced rotation correctly, you will most likely realize you've done it before and that it's quite literally "sinking" the bridge, as in sinking a ship, due to the force vector. Up/down, left/right, doesn't matter, a balanced structure will always allow you to "sink" whatever is in its path by consequence of your balanced rotation.

guy b.
08-02-2013, 03:18 PM
I can't really understand the description here, sorry