Evolution of Tai Chi/Chi Kung as Martial Arts

[Hebrew Hammer]

I was wondering how Tai Chi or Chi Kung became a standard complimentary art of hard/external TCMA. Almost all styles CLF, Mantis, Wing Chun, Shaolin, or whatever offer this soft style/ internal martial art as part of their school curriculum? How did this evolve? Is it simply a yin/yang thing?

It occurred to me that at least locally, due to the popularity of MMA, more and more TCMA schools are now adding BJJ as the third arm of Modern TCMA. I understand this evolution, it makes them relevant and popular.

I know Chi Kung is said to predate Tai Chi, yet Tai Chi became very relevant at some point...any thoughts?

[bawang]

this is the short but complete answer for the total evolution of tai chi

-doing forms slow and smooth was common in longfist systems for beginner training

-supernatural powers was common part of snake oil kung fu

-yang luchan failed the imperial exams but made enough friends to join the retinue of prince duan through backdoor.

-Manchu riflemen were deemed too physically weak to train wrestling, they changed to training tai chi.

-his grandson yang chengfu had the idea of mimicking the elegant slow imperial court dance, then built a new mythology to explain why his martial art had suddenly slowed to snail crawl.

[ShaolinDan]

Not a historian, but I gather qigong has been a part of most styles for a very very long time. Adding taiji I believe is relatively recent and is mostly about marketing. Taiji is even more popular than Bjj.

[bawang]

relatives of tai chi:

hongdong county tongbei, with direct lineage connection to chen tai chi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guUn8BH7pNM

julu village longfist, with indirect connection

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY8uKue-orI


you can see the similarity in the salute

[mawali]

It appears that when the modern era came into being (1900-I know not the exact date) the designation 'taijiquan' was born.
1. We all know the origin was Chen family village MA
2. We all know Chen family incorporated style of their village
3. We all know Yang family initially got the designation but as more Chen people came to Beijing, they realized that Chen village art was the origin
4. With modernization, they were all lumped together as part of that new taijiquan movement national treasure

Bawang's links show that reformulation of an art is possible with the proper input and skill!

[xinyidizi]

Taiji's refined body mechanics was like an upgraded version of some northern styles. After it got popular some smart people also installed the update in their systems.

[bawang]

Taiji's refined body mechanics was like an upgraded version of some northern styles. After it got popular some smart people also installed the update in their systems.

lol noe

sdfsdfsgf

[Jimbo]

I was wondering how Tai Chi or Chi Kung became a standard complimentary art of hard/external TCMA. Almost all styles CLF, Mantis, Wing Chun, Shaolin, or whatever offer this soft style/ internal martial art as part of their school curriculum? How did this evolve? Is it simply a yin/yang thing?

It occurred to me that at least locally, due to the popularity of MMA, more and more TCMA schools are now adding BJJ as the third arm of Modern TCMA. I understand this evolution, it makes them relevant and popular.

I know Chi Kung is said to predate Tai Chi, yet Tai Chi became very relevant at some point...any thoughts?

Not only CMAists, but many karate people also do Taiji to complement their main art. One particularly famous example is (was?) Shotokan pioneer Kanazawa. He had mentioned in an interview that it taught him to use a relaxed energy to complement the hard energy of Shotokan.

However, is Taiji more healthy than other MA? Not necessarily. I've seen many middle-aged and elderly people, some who were teachers, who trained only Taiji, who did not seem healthy at all. In fact, I knew an old man in Taipei who had been a bodybuilder when he was young, had trained some 'Shaolin', and whose main mode of exercise when I knew him was brisk walking. He literally walked circles around the other old men who taught Taiji, and was physically in superior shape, and mentally much sharper and 'alive' than they were. He was also surprisingly strong for his age (at the time, probably his late 70s or early 80s). He claimed he never studied Taiji.

[YouKnowWho]

-doing forms slow and smooth was common in longfist systems for beginner training.

This is not true for my branch of the longfist system. When I was young, one day I was tired from doing something else. I did my longfist form in slow motion. My longfist teacher told me that if I didn't feel like to train in "combat" speed then don't train it at all. After that day, I have never trained my longfist in slow speed. The slow speed training to me is a "bad habit" by itself.

Even today, the slow speed training just remind me that an old man is dying. Not much youth and live energy at all.

[crazedjustice88]

I can tell why MY sifu incorporates the tai chi he has learned from Kuo Yuen Ling. My sifu stresses the tai chi because of the suppleness and togetherness it teaches the students. It forces the body to move everything at once and this causes a tremendous amount of power to come out in connected strikes. Also it just teaches people to relax. I know when I spar I tend to get anxious and tense, but since i have been doing a lot of tai chi lately, that hasn't been the case and its easier for me to relax while hitting and getting hit.

[Kellen Bassette]

Even today, the slow speed training just remind me that an old man is dying. Not much youth and live energy at all.

I know most people have accepted that Taiji has completely lost all martial application. There are still a handful that teach it as a "combat art." I have seen many people teach Taiji applications, but have never met anyone who trained it as a true combat art.

Anyone can see that simply training slow and soft is counter intuitive to fighting. So how does one train taiji for combat? Is there anyone doing live, hard contact sparring? (Not just controlled push hands.) Is there anyone conditioning their strikes, or training strength?

I ask this in seriousness, not to make any kind of point.....

[bawang]

Anyone can see that simply training slow and soft is counter intuitive to fighting. So how does one train taiji for combat?

lift weights in secret

[xinyidizi]

I know most people have accepted that Taiji has completely lost all martial application. There are still a handful that teach it as a "combat art." I have seen many people teach Taiji applications, but have never met anyone who trained it as a true combat art.

Anyone can see that simply training slow and soft is counter intuitive to fighting. So how does one train taiji for combat? Is there anyone doing live, hard contact sparring? (Not just controlled push hands.) Is there anyone conditioning their strikes, or training strength?

I ask this in seriousness, not to make any kind of point.....

People train slowly as part of their training so that they can develop better body coordination, understand Jin and fix their stiffness so that they can move faster and more powerful. Dai xinyi people spend a lot of time on internal development and slow training. Tell me if this dai xinyi guy is not fast enough:
http://www.56.com/u94/v_Nzk3MDY2MTE.html

[YouKnowWho]

People train slowly as part of their training so that they can develop better body coordination, understand Jin and fix their stiffness so that they can move faster and more powerful.

How long do people need to train slow in order to "develop better body coordination, understand Jin and fix their stiffness"? 3 years? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?

What if peole just did slow training all their life and have never tried the fast training method at all?

If slow is to achieve fast then "the older that you are, the faster that you should move". This just don't seem to be the case for some Taiji people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsDPy7zMrA4

[crazedjustice88]

It's not really a question of how long it takes. Our bodies always get better and stronger, that's why Sifu introduces it from day 1. It's just one of those things you never stop training. So yeah, it all depends on if you get content with your abilities. But that itself goes against gong fu. Human excellence is never achieved, we just strive for it.

[xinyidizi]

I'm only familiar with xinyi and Chen taiji and I don't include people who just do it for health. In the styles that I practice training slow is for unlocking higher speeds and there is a lot of things that can be learned from both aspects at all levels.

[MarathonTmatt]

In my experience so far training Tai Ji technique fluidly:
-Improves body posture, body alignments (internal like the bones and external form), helps to control the breath w/ the movements, a sense of power w/ the movements (leading the intention of the technique), get a great sense of rooting, and shifting and turning (esp. in push hands), empty and full stance work (yin-yang principle/ action philosophy), and yielding, circling (ex: setting up for a joint lock).
I actually started my training w/ Tai Ji (Yang and Chen/ push hands/ qi gong) and it was the thing that got me going into training other styles like Long Fist. So for that I am very glad- I know all the principles I mentioned above about Tai Ji are present in Long Fist but the Tai Ji seems to make some of those points quite clear/ accessable.
Also I think there are some points Tai Ji can teach people that are found in all TCMA, but that might be lost (esp. westerners) on some people without the proper training- like a sense of Peng, the way push hands shifts and turns, etc. I know because of my Tai Ji training my Long fist techniques which is faster-paced has come out better in all areas of the training- techniques are crisper, transitions smoother, I never leaned forward or backward (a bad beginner habit) when I was learning say, a heel kick- but that is just my own experience.
YouknowWho brought up a good point- how long is the Tai Ji training necessary to get those concepts down that can be applied in any style.
I recently saw a sparring match/ competition between a CLF person and a Tai Ji person- the Tai Ji person never had a chance- she had a few okay hook/ jab/ etc. combos but she seemed to think "I'll stick my hand out w/ my magical Peng energy and go for a take-down" but she never got a chance.
The way I see it at this current point in time is if people are looking for health then yes, Tai Ji is great for health (blood flow, joints, oxygen, balance). If they are looking for a martial art, then it can be an important cross-training tool- take a look at Tiffany Chen (daughter of William C. C. Chen) she started w/ Tai Chi but then fanned out into other styles and is a champion kick boxer.
Those Tongbei/ etc. videos were good to watch, thanks for the history.

[YouKnowWho]

It's not really a question of how long it takes. Our bodies always get better and stronger, that's why Sifu introduces it from day 1. It's just one of those things you never stop training. So yeah, it all depends on if you get content with your abilities. But that itself goes against gong fu. Human excellence is never achieved, we just strive for it.

In the

- beginner stage, you want to develop structure, Fajin, body unification, ... (static).
- intermediate or advantage stage, you want to develop momentum (dynamic).

Since

momentum = mass * velocity,

Speed training is a must. Slow training will not develop you the feeling of momentum. To stay in the beginner training stage is like to stay in grade school and refuse to graduate.

[bawang]

Speed training is a must. Slow training will not develop you the feeling of momentum. To stay in the beginner training stage is like to stay in grade school and refuse to graduate.

in traditional longfist form is not used to train fighting ability. its used to teach you ideas. sparring is used to train fighting ability.



Also I think there are some points Tai Ji can teach people that are found in all TCMA, but that might be lost (esp. westerners) on some people without the proper training- like a sense of Peng.

if you try to use principles of push hands for fighting, you will never win.

[MarathonTmatt]

if you try to use principles of push hands for fighting, you will never win.

I think for the most part you are correct. Most fights will have a very hard kick-boxing/ scrappy-like energy to them. I think some push hands principles can be applied (shifting/stepping behind someone for a takedown, shoulder/hip Cao comes to mind) it depends what opportunity is there.
The one time I did accidentally get into a fight recently it was very striking/ scrappy, no opportunity to use push hands principles, I was just lucky I got a few good shots in and wore the other person out because I was more conditioned (I held back after getting those shots in because I thought the whole situation was stupid in the first place.)
I have been able to use push hands principles in sparring with some success here and there but that is another story (not fighting I realize.)

[MarathonTmatt]

I was wondering how Tai Chi or Chi Kung became a standard complimentary art of hard/external TCMA. Almost all styles CLF, Mantis, Wing Chun, Shaolin, or whatever offer this soft style/ internal martial art as part of their school curriculum? How did this evolve? Is it simply a yin/yang thing?

It occurred to me that at least locally, due to the popularity of MMA, more and more TCMA schools are now adding BJJ as the third arm of Modern TCMA. I understand this evolution, it makes them relevant and popular.

I know Chi Kung is said to predate Tai Chi, yet Tai Chi became very relevant at some point...any thoughts?

I also would say w/ TCMA, some traditional stylists don't like the labels external/ internal, at least when it comes to their art, I know this is true w/ a lot of older northern styles so yes it is a yin-yang thing.
here is a clip I found about the northern eagle claw style and Wu style tai chi training and why both are offered at the Shifu's school:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=271Tcg8aUlk&feature=player_detailpage

here is footage from the 30's from changsha- some stretching/ calisthenics, kung fu and tai chi are performed by both military and the women's high school group:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocMJfZkADI4&feature=player_detailpage


I also believe when the Ching Woo Ass. opened (one of the first public schools) around 1916? that many styles were taught by the teachers (of different systems) there, some of which was tai chi and other styles like long fist. so it is the cultural martial arts heritage of china.

seemed to be relevant to ur original question.

[xinyidizi]

Is there anyone doing live, hard contact sparring? (Not just controlled push hands.) Is there anyone conditioning their strikes, or training strength?

I ask this in seriousness, not to make any kind of point.....

In the 90's Chen style competitions were about taiji's grappling techniques like this:
http://www.56.com/u11/v_NDAyMjc1ODE.html
http://www.56.com/u45/v_NDUzNTQzNTQ.html

In recent years it is mostly becoming Sanshou with limited striking. So now we have push hands competitions(both fixed and moving), grappling competitions and Sanshou for Taiji.

[sanjuro_ronin]

RE: "slo-mo training":
Evert MA and even every sport, advocated slow and controlled movements at the beginning stage of learning them.
Its just common sense.
It teaches awareness, proper form, balance and so forth.
BUT the moment an acceptable level of "doing" is reached then "practical" speed is used, virtually always, why?
Because you can NOT move the right way if you do NOT move the right way, in short:
You will never be able to do a move with speed, power and explosiveness unless you DO it that way, regularly.
You will not be able to develop the balance, skill, and your body will not be able to handle the "forces" it will go through when doing it that way.

[bawang]

In the 90's Chen style competitions were about taiji's grappling techniques like this:
http://www.56.com/u11/v_NDAyMjc1ODE.html
http://www.56.com/u45/v_NDUzNTQzNTQ.html

In recent years it is mostly becoming Sanshou with limited striking. So now we have push hands competitions(both fixed and moving), grappling competitions and Sanshou for Taiji.

tai chi people can train combat push hands, but they will never train combat.

combat chi sao, combat form, combat shuai Jiao, combat gay sex, as long as its not real combat.

[YouKnowWho]

tai chi people can train combat push hands, but they will never train combat.

If

- "combat" is your main goal, you may not pick up Taiji as your prime art.
- you pick up Taiji as your prime art, "combat" may not be your main goal.

To me, combat and Taiji are like chicken and duck. They both speak different languages.

[bawang]

If

- "combat" is your main goal, you may not pick up Taiji as your prime art.
- you pick up Taiji as your prime art, "combat" may not be your main goal.

To me, combat and Taiji are like chicken and duck. They both speak different languages.

combat tai chi is like a chicken trying to fly.

[Kellen Bassette]

In recent years it is mostly becoming Sanshou with limited striking. So now we have push hands competitions(both fixed and moving), grappling competitions and Sanshou for Taiji.

So if there are people truly interested in training Tai Chi for combat, then why not practice the techniques at fighting speed? Do they only perform at real speed during a tournament or are you guys drilling with resisting partner in real time every class?

[YouKnowWho]

So if there are people truly interested in training Tai Chi for combat, then why not practice the techniques at fighting speed? Do they only perform at real speed during a tournament or are you guys drilling with resisting partner in real time every class?

Their argument is to drill in slow speed, they can develop 100% perfect techniques. Unfortunately some people felt that their techniques were not perfect enough. All their life they had trained "slow speed" until the day they died.

[bawang]

Their argument is to drill in slow speed, they can develop 100% perfect techniques. Unfortunately some people felt that their techniques were not perfect enough. All their life they had trained "slow speed" until the day they died.

in tai chi people don't even know how to throw a punch. drilling slow is the least of their problems.

[Kellen Bassette]

in tai chi people don't even know how to throw a punch. drilling slow is the least of their problems.

You say you train Tai Chi....why and how?

[bawang]

You say you train Tai Chi....why and how?

wat u mean

[Kellen Bassette]

I kind of meant how does it figure into a fundamental combat based approach...

do you train it differently then it typically trained

[bawang]

I kind of meant how does it figure into a fundamental combat based approach...

I typed the name of the moves on Chinese google.



do you train it differently then it typically trained

I train by intuition. if something feels weird or stupid, I don't do it.

[xinyidizi]

So if there are people truly interested in training Tai Chi for combat, then why not practice the techniques at fighting speed? Do they only perform at real speed during a tournament or are you guys drilling with resisting partner in real time every class?

A full-time professional Chen Taiji student's training has different parts. Doing the first set slow, the second set fast for fajin and push hands is one part of the training. They also do running, weight training, sparring, partner drills (like this: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjk3MTI4NDIw.html ) regularly as part of their everyday training.

(The competition video of the taiji student doing the drills: http://www.56.com/u44/v_MzY0Mjc2ODU.html)

[Hebrew Hammer]

I probably didn't word my original query very well, I was trying to find out why Tai Chi, Chi Kung, or even more recently Yoga is taught as meditative and chi development tool? Tai Chi and QiGong were, according to what I've been told, originally their own martial arts. And were taught as such, but for the most part they now are emphasized as health, chi, energy, or meditative arts. What brought this about?


this is the short but complete answer for the total evolution of tai chi

-doing forms slow and smooth was common in longfist systems for beginner training

-supernatural powers was common part of snake oil kung fu

-yang luchan failed the imperial exams but made enough friends to join the retinue of prince duan through backdoor.

-Manchu riflemen were deemed too physically weak to train wrestling, they changed to training tai chi.

-his grandson yang chengfu had the idea of mimicking the elegant slow imperial court dance, then built a new mythology to explain why his martial art had suddenly slowed to snail crawl.

Well Tai Chi and Chi Kung predate Manchu rifleman...I'm stupid round eye so you'll have to connect the dots better for me. I'm not seeing the complete picture.


relatives of tai chi:

hongdong county tongbei, with direct lineage connection to chen tai chi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guUn8BH7pNM

julu village longfist, with indirect connection

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY8uKue-orI


you can see the similarity in the salute

Again, I'm not drawing a line to points or exactly what you're trying to show me here.


It appears that when the modern era came into being (1900-I know not the exact date) the designation 'taijiquan' was born.
1. We all know the origin was Chen family village MA
2. We all know Chen family incorporated style of their village
3. We all know Yang family initially got the designation but as more Chen people came to Beijing, they realized that Chen village art was the origin
4. With modernization, they were all lumped together as part of that new taijiquan movement national treasure

Bawang's links show that reformulation of an art is possible with the proper input and skill!

Thanks Mawali, now this is getting more to meat of my question...why Tai Chi is used in conjunction with other arts...you think it was the National Treasure Movement? Were they using Chi Kung or another soft/internal/energy development tool prior to this? As part of their martial offerings?


Not only CMAists, but many karate people also do Taiji to complement their main art. One particularly famous example is (was?) Shotokan pioneer Kanazawa. He had mentioned in an interview that it taught him to use a relaxed energy to complement the hard energy of Shotokan.

However, is Taiji more healthy than other MA? Not necessarily. I've seen many middle-aged and elderly people, some who were teachers, who trained only Taiji, who did not seem healthy at all. In fact, I knew an old man in Taipei who had been a bodybuilder when he was young, had trained some 'Shaolin', and whose main mode of exercise when I knew him was brisk walking. He literally walked circles around the other old men who taught Taiji, and was physically in superior shape, and mentally much sharper and 'alive' than they were. He was also surprisingly strong for his age (at the time, probably his late 70s or early 80s). He claimed he never studied Taiji.

Interesting Jimbo, and something else I've drawn parallels to locally. Even Yoga is extremely popular as a supplemental fitness, breathing, relaxation, health, chi or energy tool at Socal martial arts schools. It maybe a business tool to draw more clients but it certainly fits a similar function as Tai Chi/Chi Kung. I have noticed that many lifetime martial artists are drawn to Tai Chi for one reason or the other and will add it to their styles. I've seen Ninjitsu schools also offer it...I'm just wondering if its only a biz tool but I doubt that.

[crazedjustice88]

In the

- beginner stage, you want to develop structure, Fajin, body unification, ... (static).
- intermediate or advantage stage, you want to develop momentum (dynamic).

Since

momentum = mass * velocity,

Speed training is a must. Slow training will not develop you the feeling of momentum. To stay in the beginner training stage is like to stay in grade school and refuse to graduate.

Well of course. But only a fool forgets the basics once he/she learns the advanced stuff. Besides, we use the hop gar for fighting, only every now and then is the tai chi actually used in combat since most applications are waiting for someone to strike.

[bawang]

Again, I'm not drawing a line to points or exactly what you're trying to show me here.


they share the same salute.




Well Tai Chi and Chi Kung predate Manchu rifleman...I'm stupid round eye so you'll have to connect the dots better for me. I'm not seeing the complete picture.



tai chi exaggerated the slow aspect of longfist and fabricated a mythology around it. then it became popular exercise for physically weak manchus.

[rett]

I probably didn't word my original query very well, I was trying to find out why Tai Chi, Chi Kung, or even more recently Yoga is taught as meditative and chi development tool? Tai Chi and QiGong were, according to what I've been told, originally their own martial arts. And were taught as such, but for the most part they now are emphasized as health, chi, energy, or meditative arts. What brought this about?

As I've learned it, Taiji was actively promoted and popularized in Mainland China from the 1950s onward as a way to improve the health of the population. China had a shortage of doctors and needed to focus on preventive medicine and lifestyle improvements to avert or minimize a health crisis.

This campaign created the modern health/meditation Taiji we see today (or perhaps built on elements that were already there, but spread them on a large scale). The goal wasn't to teach the masses to fight.

Again, this is just the explanation I've heard.

[mawali]

As I've learned it, Taiji was actively promoted and popularized in Mainland China from the 1950s onward as a way to improve the health of the population. China had a shortage of doctors and needed to focus on preventive medicine and lifestyle improvements to avert or minimize a health crisis.

This campaign created the modern health/meditation Taiji we see today (or perhaps built on elements that were already there, but spread them on a large scale). The goal wasn't to teach the masses to fight.


Prior to the 1950s, very few people knew what taijiquan was so as a resul,t Beijing put together the reformation council to abridge and re-engineer taijiquan. Incidently, there were a few people who actually shortened the forms of taijiquan but since they were seen as anti-government, or served in a pre-communist era, or with title and education, they were ignored and put away and 'intellectual property' was stolen since 'who would really care"

[No_Know]

relatives of tai chi:

hongdong county tongbei, with direct lineage connection to chen tai chi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guUn8BH7pNM

julu village longfist, with indirect connection

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY8uKue-orI


you can see the similarity in the salute


The first video guy uses a break-a-grab, a trip and a throw, to longfist.

The second video guy uses a breathing move (that converts to a break-a-grab), to a sword translation (that could disguise a throw) to longfist.

The first guy opens with one hand/arm in one motion. The other guy uses two in two motions.

The originator of the second guy's stuff died, the T'ai Chi originator (Chen Wangting) was eight years old. So that we're seeing supposedly hard stuff done slow but with Chen influence, we can only talk about the performances we see today Not the way it was first done.

No_Know

Similarity, not really. Though they both use a throw, one does a health move throw from a sword move the other does deflections, a trip and throw. That's not similar enough for me to call them similar for what you might be trying to say perhaps, bawang.

No_Know

[No_Know]

they share the same salute.


tai chi exaggerated the slow aspect of longfist and fabricated a mythology around it. then it became popular exercise for physically weak manchus.

T'ai Chi Ch'uan core moves seem so many different than core long fist they are distinct. Long fist was first...I just looked at longfist 32 video clip and then a Chen taich 18 video clip... I can see the Long fist in T'ai Chi Ch'uan. Called the Long Fist style of the Emperor I don't think it had particularly slow aspects at all.

In the 500~ years from long fist start to Chen Wangting--T'ai Chi Ch'uan originator's birth. There's stuff going on. I can see long fist as a base and container or basic delivery system for non long fist principles, O.K.

No_Know

[No_Know]

I was wondering how Tai Chi or Chi Kung became a standard complimentary art of hard/external TCMA. Almost all styles CLF, Mantis, Wing Chun, Shaolin, or whatever offer this soft style/ internal martial art as part of their school curriculum? How did this evolve? Is it simply a yin/yang thing?
A system with T'ai Chi Ch'uan added within forty years or so, it might be marketing. Why China would push it is it's like a discovery and they get credited. It's fool proof with high margins for volumous usage. you don't pull muscles doing it and every aged person can do it now or youth can look forward to being expert when they are too long-lived for rugby.


It occurred to me that at least locally, due to the popularity of MMA, more and more TCMA schools are now adding BJJ as the third arm of Modern TCMA. I understand this evolution, it makes them relevant and popular.

If I'm a baker of bread but business dwindles I might realize I can market to weddings, birthday parties and events through cakes then cupcakes--dirves. Schools might add T'ai Chi Ch'uan to the cirriculum to get more paying customers in the angle of Stress relief. Versatile enough to include meditation or spirituality...stack the demographics, load 'er-up.


I know Chi Kung is said to predate Tai Chi, yet Tai Chi became very relevant at some point...any thoughts?]

Qigong is formful. t'ai Chi can be a vehicle through which one can enact the qigongbenefits in a particular direction--use versus development of the tools (the within and out). Purpose to the Power.

No_Know

[Throwaway Child]

How long do people need to train slow in order to "develop better body coordination, understand Jin and fix their stiffness"? 3 years? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?

What if peole just did slow training all their life and have never tried the fast training method at all?

If slow is to achieve fast then "the older that you are, the faster that you should move". This just don't seem to be the case for some Taiji people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsDPy7zMrA4



bkuz I am old & fragile

my knees are crippled - so to try & go any faster would only be making life more painful for myself - especially if I am lucky enough to grow older - even better really old like 200

I just found this Video & I'm trying to watch his footwork -->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zc7eO4eA158

I have never done wu style - But I have some books about it now
I do yang & chen - as far as my taiji goes


someone said that in Wushu - your lifetime opponent is yourself - I don't want to get into a fight with my knees


is that Jerry Alan Johnson in your video ?

[YouKnowWho]

your lifetime opponent is yourself - I don't want to get into a fight with my knees. is that Jerry Alan Johnson in your video ?

Don't know who that person is.

The discussion of combat and health sometime just contradict to each other.

- Combat is to train for others.
- Health is to train for yourself.

When your fist meet your opponent's face, it's neither healthy for your opponent's face nor healthy for your own fist.

[Throwaway Child]

--------------------sifu said ---- "no fighting."- "remember that "

[Cheng oi]

----------- Chinese Dubbed Khmer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuBw6Aysz6I)

[FullPotentialMA]

I was wondering how Tai Chi or Chi Kung became a standard complimentary art of hard/external TCMA. Almost all styles CLF, Mantis, Wing Chun, Shaolin, or whatever offer this soft style/ internal martial art as part of their school curriculum? How did this evolve? Is it simply a yin/yang thing?

It occurred to me that at least locally, due to the popularity of MMA, more and more TCMA schools are now adding BJJ as the third arm of Modern TCMA. I understand this evolution, it makes them relevant and popular.

I know Chi Kung is said to predate Tai Chi, yet Tai Chi became very relevant at some point...any thoughts?

We have a short history of Tai Chi here, courtesy of our martial arts school in San Diego. (http://http://fullpotentialma.com/resources/about-tai-chi/)
The short answer is that Tai Chi, in its current form, is actually quite young -- from the 19th century. With respect to "internal" and "external" -- that designation is actually quite recent (~50 years). Martial arts of yesteryears understood both internal and external power generation and did not classify themselves as one or the other.

[omarthefish]

I probably didn't word my original query very well, I was trying to find out why Tai Chi, Chi Kung, or even more recently Yoga is taught as meditative and chi development tool?
Mostly because:


A system with T'ai Chi Ch'uan added within forty years or so, it might be marketing. Why China would push it is it's like a discovery and they get credited. It's fool proof with high margins for volumous usage. you don't pull muscles doing it and every aged person can do it now or youth can look forward to being expert when they are too long-lived for rugby.

If I'm a baker of bread but business dwindles I might realize I can market to weddings, birthday parties and events through cakes then cupcakes--dirves. Schools might add T'ai Chi Ch'uan to the cirriculum to get more paying customers in the angle of Stress relief. Versatile enough to include meditation or spirituality...stack the demographics, load 'er-up.

Also, your original question "begs the question":Is Taiji a standard complimentary art of hard/external TCMA?

I'd say that no, it isn't. There's nothing standard about that at all. In fact, it's almost non-existent. It's generally just added in so that people can have more stuff to teach or so that there's a class that less athletic people can get into.

And also:

Tai Chi and QiGong were, according to what I've been told, originally their own martial arts. And were taught as such...
Still are and still are...provided that the teacher actually has that skill set which is pretty rare. So what do you do if you do not have actual Taijiquan combat skill...


... but for the most part they now are emphasized as health, chi, energy, or meditative arts.


Now even if the teacher does have high level skill with Taijiquan, there's still the market issue. Taijiquan provides lots of different things to lots of different people. So even with a really good teacher with combat skill, there are still going to be a lot of students who just aren't attracted to it for those reasons. The short answer is that Taiji is typically taught as a "meditative and chi development tool" because that's what most people want to get out of it.

[Cheng oi]

I need to learn the martial side of it - it seems I always have to get into a whole bunch of fights - no matter how much I try to avoid them - if you are trying to avoid confrontation - bad drill Sargents & doc guards will always start fights with you -
not to mention Mr. Satan Right there --> X --- & all those other fools --
What has the world come to ????

I was just trying to be healthy & exercise

[YouKnowWho]

Taiji is typically taught as a "meditative and chi development tool" because that's what most people want to get out of it.
I tried to start a new Sanda class in Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. The program director said they already have enough MA classes, and they don't need another one. But they would like to have a Taiji class if I'm willing to teach.

For some people, Taiji is not even considered as MA at all.

If Chen Taij guys could fight MT guys, I should be able to teach a "Taji Sanda" class. The problem is, if I teach a

- Sanda class, I'll get students who are interested in combat.
- Taiji class, I'll get students who are interested in health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance.

Are there such students who are interested in combat and also interest in health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance? How many such students exist on this planet?

[pazman]

Are there such students who are interested in combat and also interest in health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance? How many such students exist on this planet?

I'm such a student and attempt to instill those values in my students. After a good, hard sparring session I feel at peace, I've looked deep inside myself and become a more honest person. A proper, athletic sanda session is healthier than any taiji class.

For most taiji people, these things are just out of their grasp, and their teachers dangle a carrot in front of them. A new qigong set, further work on developing "structure", or learning a taolu that is twice as long as the one they learned before are all seen as another step to achieving health and inner peace.

[Scott R. Brown]

I tried to start a new Sanda class in Cal Poly San Luis Obispo. The program director said they already have enough MA classes, and they don't need another one. But they would like to have a Taiji class if I'm willing to teach.

This is what happens when people who don't know anything about martial arts decide what should be taught or not. He doesn't realize what you have to offer is more valuable than anything else being taught at the school.:(

[mickey]

Greetings,

Re: Tai Chi exercise vs Martial Art

Did any of you consider mind control as a reason for the push foe the health aspects of Tai Chi and, later, Wushu?

A weak, docile, nation is very easy to control; a strong, warrior, nation is very difficult to honor.


mickey

[Jimbo]

When I was going through massage therapy school, Taiji was one of the requirements needed to pass to go beyond the school's introductory course. It was a shortened Yang form; there was no martial emphasis. We had to learn it to develop 'whole-body movement' and proper posture/stance while massaging, as opposed to just using the hands/arms. I didn't need it, as I could already do that with my previous MA training, but it was still required. Once I passed that examination, I stopped doing the Taiji.

I've started and soon stopped Taiji about 3 times in my life. I suppose it's not my cup of tea.

[Alex Córdoba]

Are there such students who are interested in combat and also interest in health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance? How many such students exist on this planet?

In my opinion that's a contradiction.. like loosing weight with liposuction.

[Miqi]

Greetings,

Re: Tai Chi exercise vs Martial Art

Did any of you consider mind control as a reason for the push foe the health aspects of Tai Chi and, later, Wushu?

A weak, docile, nation is very easy to control; a strong, warrior, nation is very difficult to honor.


mickey

You've obviously never met a professional level wushu athlete from China. They are all superbly fit and atheletic, in most cases much stronger and fitter than an average wester martial arts "expert", and usually with far more authentic knowledge of traditional wushu, which is as rare as hen's teeth in the west.

And b, if that was true they wouldn't have introduced san da, and built a massive army.

And c, you must know zero about China. There are literally tens of thousands of riots in China every year - I mean, tens of thousands. It's always astonishing how people have these bizarre notions about wushu, when wushu players are so much better, and generally have so much more authentic knowledge and skill than the people who criticise them.

[Miqi]

A big part of the problem is that people think they have a right to a living from wushu. If you don't teach for money, then you don't have to worry about things being taught in ways that you don't agree with. Chinese martial arts would improve massively overnight if 99% of the commercial schools in the West simply closed.

[Miqi]

they share the same salute.


tai chi exaggerated the slow aspect of longfist and fabricated a mythology around it. then it became popular exercise for physically weak manchus.

That's just ignorance, but one which the physically weak who pretend to know taijiquan have made easy to believe. But ignorance nevertheless.

[Jimbo]

You've obviously never met a professional level wushu athlete from China. They are all superbly fit and atheletic, in most cases much stronger and fitter than an average wester martial arts "expert", and usually with far more authentic knowledge of traditional wushu, which is as rare as hen's teeth in the west.

And b, if that was true they wouldn't have introduced san da, and built a massive army.

And c, you must know zero about China. There are literally tens of thousands of riots in China every year - I mean, tens of thousands. It's always astonishing how people have these bizarre notions about wushu, when wushu players are so much better, and generally have so much more authentic knowledge and skill than the people who criticise them.

FWIW, Jet Li himself, as well as several of his Beijing Wushu Team contemporaries, openly admitted that, while they certainly understood the performance aspect of wushu, they did not know how to fight for real. Among wushu athletes, they were the best of the best, at least during their time, and for many years after. Perhaps of all time. I don't see any reason why they would have said that if it weren't true.

Of course, someone might say they said that to 'hide' their real knowledge from the general public or the West, or they were being humble. I don't buy it.

Obviously, more recent wushu athletes whose training includes sanda would be different.