It's not in the forms

[YouKnowWho]

A: The WC system doesn't have "hip throw".
B: There are over 20 + kind of "hip throw" in WC. They are just not in the WC forms.

A: The Taiji system doesn't have "flying side kick".
B: There are over 20 + kind of "flying side kick" in Taiji. They are just not in the Taiji forms.

A: The longfist system doesn't have "flying knee".
B: There are over 20 + kind of "flying knee" in longfist. They are just not in the longfist forms.

Who is right? A or B?

How will you be able to know that a certain technique is not from "cross training" if it's not in the forms? Your thought?

[-N-]

How will you be able to know that a certain technique is not from "cross training" if it's not in the forms? Your thought?

Have a legit teacher and pay attention?

[Syn7]

How do you know a teacher is legit? Is lineage enough? Does that guarantee there was no cross training? How do you know your sigung didn't add stuff? Define legit.

[Kellen Bassette]

Define legit.


http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/252/75497146.png

[PalmStriker]

Hammer Fist? :confused:

[Kellen Bassette]

Too legit to quit....

[YouKnowWho]

My teacher integrated XingYi Pi Chuan into his Taiji "cross leg". If I didn't know that my teacher had "cross training" in the XingYi system, I may think that Pi Chuan exists in the Taiji system.

[Kellen Bassette]

My teacher integrated XingYi Pi Chuan into his Taiji "cross leg". If I didn't know that my teacher had "cross training" in the XingYi system, I may think that Pi Chuan exists in the Taiji system.

Maybe it does now, if his students are teaching it that way.

[Jimbo]

A: The WC system doesn't have "hip throw".
B: There are over 20 + kind of "hip throw" in WC. They are just not in the WC forms.

A: The Taiji system doesn't have "flying side kick".
B: There are over 20 + kind of "flying side kick" in Taiji. They are just not in the Taiji forms.

A: The longfist system doesn't have "flying knee".
B: There are over 20 + kind of "flying knee" in longfist. They are just not in the longfist forms.

Who is right? A or B?

How will you be able to know that a certain technique is not from "cross training" if it's not in the forms? Your thought?

Why couldn't er qi jiao (jumping front kick) in Long Fist be a flying knee? If you simply modify it by not kicking out your lower leg and extending the knee forward instead?

Then someone might say, 'Well then, why not just do a flying knee?'

Forms are stylized representations of fighting movements or ideas interlinked in preset patterns. As we all know, in many instances, actual applications often look different from the way the move is done in the form. A form is dead, no matter how much 'life' you may try to interject into it. Any technique becomes alive only when its concepts are absorbed by some level of understanding and ability to apply it outside of preset conditions. It's highly unlikely anyone could do that with every technique in any given form. So forms are not a necessity for fighting, but if kept in perspective, can have their place for a practitioner. They're a good method of training the body to move from unique positions you wouldn't make in ordinary life.

All MA styles are a result of cross-training. Why do Japanese and many Okinawan karate practitioners place such emphasis on roundhouse kicks when those aren't in their forms? I would be surprised if a teacher's way of practicing wasn't colored in some way by his own personal experience, and that means familiarity with other methods.

[bawang]

Who is right? A or B?

How will you be able to know that a certain technique is not from "cross training" if it's not in the forms? Your thought?

somebody say everything is in the form, you are not happy. I say not everything is in a form, you are still not happy. a form is a seed and an example. its not an encyclopedia.



How will you be able to know that a certain technique is not from "cross training" if it's not in the forms? Your thought?
there is no shame from "cross training"

[Kellen Bassette]

A: The longfist system doesn't have "flying knee".
B: There are over 20 + kind of "flying knee" in longfist. They are just not in the longfist forms.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT6SSyAyjv4

I think you could interpret the move at 0:04 as a flying knee. This may be a modern form, but does that matter? I guess the next question is were you using the term "Long Fist" specifically or generically? Does that include Shaolin or Ying Jow Pai, both which teach this form in some schools....

[Kellen Bassette]

All MA styles are a result of cross-training. Why do Japanese and many Okinawan karate practitioners place such emphasis on roundhouse kicks when those aren't in their forms?

I know...right??? :cool:

[Syn7]

Personally, I always thought of purity as a lack of sophistication. But that's just me.

[yutyeesam]

It seems that when you become a student of principles, styles matter less and less.

[David Jamieson]

It seems that when you become a student of principles, styles matter less and less.

There you go. :p

[Shadow Skill]

This reminds me of this scene
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0dPKs3qwz0

[bawang]

This reminds me of this scene
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0dPKs3qwz0
this is more realistic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HLO3vmbmXM

[Shadow Skill]

is that Billy from Double Dragon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJwphXaZ-VA

[-N-]

How will you be able to know that a certain technique is not from "cross training" if it's not in the forms? Your thought?


Have a legit teacher and pay attention?


My teacher integrated XingYi Pi Chuan into his Taiji "cross leg". If I didn't know that my teacher had "cross training" in the XingYi system, I may think that Pi Chuan exists in the Taiji system.

Your teacher was legit, and you paid attention when he told you about his other training. So what's the difficulty?

[lance]

Have a legit teacher and pay attention?So if you say it ' s not the forms then ? Then what you really mean is work closely with the sifu himself and ask him questions then right ? Or esle how do you really expect to learn something from the sifu right ?

[YouKnowWho]

If you are a style founder, and you have created 10 forms for the system that you have created. Is there any reason that you don't want to include some of the most important piece of information in your forms?

[xinyidizi]

If you are a style founder, and you have created 10 forms for the system that you have created. Is there any reason that you don't want to include some of the most important piece of information in your forms?

To hide the "real" stuff. :cool:

First give me 20k baishifei then I might tell you a bit more.

[Kellen Bassette]

Personally, I always thought of purity as a lack of sophistication. But that's just me.

Kind of akin to inbreeding...

[Kellen Bassette]

If you are a style founder, and you have created 10 forms for the system that you have created. Is there any reason that you don't want to include some of the most important piece of information in your forms?

Some stuff doesn't translate well in forms....like most grappling, for instance...

[bawang]

If you are a style founder, and you have created 10 forms for the system that you have created. Is there any reason that you don't want to include some of the most important piece of information in your forms?

mongols were the fiercest warriors but they didn't train boxing, only shuai Jiao. are the mongols "incomplete" in their training?

[Kellen Bassette]

mongols were the fiercest warriors but they didn't train boxing, only shuai Jiao. are the mongols "incomplete" in their training?

I'm pretty sure the Mongol success derived mostly from their military tactics, secondly from their archery and horsemanship. Their Bokh probably served to strengthen the spirit.

[-N-]

So if you say it ' s not the forms then ? Then what you really mean is work closely with the sifu himself and ask him questions then right ? Or esle how do you really expect to learn something from the sifu right ?

There you go :)

Though some teachers prefer to tell you when they think you are ready, rather than have you ask lots of questions.

That's not to say you shouldn't be thinking. But if you actually demonstrate an understanding, then the teacher may want to build on that by giving you more stuff.

Kung fu is about doing, more than about talking.

[-N-]

Sometimes its hard to tell who's patience is being tested more, the student's or the teacher's.

[sanjuro_ronin]

No form or series of forms can "catalog" all the techniques of any system, especially one that is evolving, like any decent system is.
What they can do is serve specific or multiple purposes.
They can be development forms such as the sanchin/sanjian/sam boo gin ones.
They can catalog the basics of certain levels.
They can store the "favorite" moves of a particular master.
They can store moves that are the "heart and soul" of a system.
etc, etc.

Do MA systems need forms for all that? No, of course not.
Are they useful when used properly? yes, of course they are.
Do they contain ALL? Nope, of course not.
Should they contain what makes the system, THE system? Yes, of course.

[bawang]

I'm pretty sure the Mongol success derived mostly from their military tactics, secondly from their archery and horsemanship. Their Bokh probably served to strengthen the spirit.

kung fu people obsess over empty hand effectiveness because they got humiliated by MMA. they invested into kung fu hobby to increase their self confidence. its all one ego stroking fantasy quest.

[YouKnowWho]

No form or series of forms can "catalog" all the techniques of any system, ...

It can be done but somebody has to do it. First you collect all the tools that you will need in combat.

- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, jump kick, crescent kick, ...
- jab, cross, hook, uppercut, hammer fist, back fist, ...
- finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, bear hug, ...
- single leg, double legs, hip throw, leg spring, leg lift, leg twist, ...
- ...

You then link them into a logical order and in different forms. Those "universal toolbox" can be trained by all MA systems. You can then add "snake engine", "monkey engine", ... whatever that body method that you prefer to use those tools.

[bawang]

It can be done but somebody has to do it. First you collect all the tools that you will need in combat.

- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, jump kick, crescent kick, ...
- jab, cross, hook, uppercut, hammer fist, back fist, ...
- finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, bear hug, ...
- single leg, double legs, hip throw, leg spring, leg lift, leg twist, ...
- ...

You then link them into a logical order and in different forms. Those "universal toolbox" can be trained by all MA systems. You can then add "snake engine", "monkey engine", ... whatever that body method that you prefer to use those tools.

"The earliest conception of boxing-that it consisted of a system of tricks-is not dead yet in some quarters. I find that nearly every pupil who comes to me for first lessons is so impressed. The notion dies hard. A few months since the boxing master of one of the leading athletic clubs received a letter from the secretary of a country club asking him if he knew of a teacher who knew a hundred points whom he could recommend; "for," said the writer, "we have one who teaches sixty points, but should prefer one with more extended knowledge."
Outing magazine, February, 1891, No. 17, p. 447-452.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It can be done but somebody has to do it. First you collect all the tools that you will need in combat.

- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, jump kick, crescent kick, ...
- jab, cross, hook, uppercut, hammer fist, back fist, ...
- finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, head lock, bear hug, ...
- single leg, double legs, hip throw, leg spring, leg lift, leg twist, ...
- ...

You then link them into a logical order and in different forms. Those "universal toolbox" can be trained by all MA systems. You can then add "snake engine", "monkey engine", ... whatever that body method that you prefer to use those tools.

Can and should don't always go together...

The old adage of "fear the man that has practiced 1 move 1000 times over the man that has practiced 1000 moves once" is quite correct.

Personally , I think that what forms were suppose to be was this:
A master would tend to favour certain moves and combos, based on his own personal fight experience and, hopefully, that of his students.
He would then pass those on in the form of a "form", so the students that KNEW them already ( and the principles behind them) can train them solo.

These forms were NOT etched in stone and moves that were NOT found to be effective for student A or B, would be dropped and/or modified by THEM so as to be effective ( hence variations in forms over the generations and lineages).

[Wayfaring]

You then link them into a logical order and in different forms. Those "universal toolbox" can be trained by all MA systems. You can then add "snake engine", "monkey engine", ... whatever that body method that you prefer to use those tools.

Sounds like I need to use my "pimp engine" and inflate my "pimp back hand" to use on the OP.

[YouKnowWho]

Our body parts can perform the following different number of functions.

1. hand - 50,
2. elbow - 10,
3. shoulder - 4,
4. elbow - 6,
5. chest - 6,
6. leg - 20,
7.foot - 20,
8. waist - 10,
9. head - 10,
10. hip - 5.

We should start from those functions to understand TCMA development. For example, when your opponent get hold on your leg, if you use hip function "sit", it will be harder for your opponent to lift up your leg.

[wenshu]

"The earliest conception of boxing-that it consisted of a system of tricks-is not dead yet in some quarters. I find that nearly every pupil who comes to me for first lessons is so impressed. The notion dies hard. A few months since the boxing master of one of the leading athletic clubs received a letter from the secretary of a country club asking him if he knew of a teacher who knew a hundred points whom he could recommend; "for," said the writer, "we have one who teaches sixty points, but should prefer one with more extended knowledge."
Outing magazine, February, 1891, No. 17, p. 447-452.

http://abload.de/img/0511_33us3.gif

[-N-]

"The earliest conception of boxing-that it consisted of a system of tricks-is not dead yet in some quarters. I find that nearly every pupil who comes to me for first lessons is so impressed. The notion dies hard. A few months since the boxing master of one of the leading athletic clubs received a letter from the secretary of a country club asking him if he knew of a teacher who knew a hundred points whom he could recommend; "for," said the writer, "we have one who teaches sixty points, but should prefer one with more extended knowledge."
Outing magazine, February, 1891, No. 17, p. 447-452.

Sorry, going over people's heads is not allowed in this forum.

So you're really 24?

[Kellen Bassette]

kung fu people obsess over empty hand effectiveness because they got humiliated by MMA. they invested into kung fu hobby to increase their self confidence. its all one ego stroking fantasy quest.

There is nothing in this statement I can argue against.

[lance]

Sometimes its hard to tell who's patience is being tested more, the student's or the teacher's.

-N- , You right , I agree with you .

[YouKnowWho]

When you were young, the word "style" may mean a lot to you. Do you still care about it when you get older?

[Syn7]

When you were young, the word "style" may mean a lot to you. Do you still care about it when you get older?

Nope.

And I find that in most areas of my life.

[YouKnowWho]

In another forum there is a thread, "new interview with Tim Cartmell". Some people questions Tim's opinion about "internal" which is different today than what he had 20 years ago.

When you are 80 years old, if you still think the same way as when your were 20, you have never grown up.

[pazman]

When you were young, the word "style" may mean a lot to you. Do you still care about it when you get older?

It depends. For my own training, style is not important. But when I approach others I have judge their teaching given the context of their style. I wouldn't expect a boxing teacher to address ground wrestling, I wouldn't expect a kendo teacher to give me advice on kicks.

If you expect your TCMA style to give you all the answers, you'll either be disappointed or misled. However, TCMA is "cool" once you understand its context and limitations.

[Jimbo]

When you were young, the word "style" may mean a lot to you. Do you still care about it when you get older?

When I began MA I didn't care about style. All I knew about were judo, wrestling and karate. I wanted to learn how to fight.

Later, when I became aware of 'styles', style became important.

And later still, I realized that style doesn't matter. What matters is what you like and what works for *you*.