Archery [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

GoldenBrain

08-07-2013, 10:38 PM

Is that you Goldenbrain? Hook me up brother.

Yup, that was me. I created a thread a while back about how to build a traditional Choctaw bow and arrows but I deleted it due to lack of interest and I really didn't like the way I put it together. It's just really hard to convey how to do this sort of primitive work without video and I'm not into posting videos of myself. I'm kind of shy like that I guess.:o

Below are a couple of links with basic instructions to get you started. Honestly, I'd recommend buying a commercial long bow to get you into the sport and then make one of these on the side. Once you make your own you'll never go back but it may take you several tries to get it just right so you'll wan't to have something to play with while you learn the art.

How to build a Choctaw bow:
http://www.choctawschool.com/home-side-menu/iti-fabvssa/making-a-choctaw-bow.aspx

Examples of different kinds of Choctaw bows with dimensions:
http://www.choctawnationculture.com/choctaw-culture/early-choctaw-traditional-arts/bows-and-arrows.aspx

How to make a Choctaw war arrow:
http://www.choctawschool.com/home-side-menu/iti-fabvssa/making-a-choctaw-war-arrow.aspx

MarathonTmatt

08-08-2013, 05:55 PM

Hi. I am going to take up archery, and I know someone mentioned that they either make or have a line on someone who crafts hand made native american bows. I can't remember if that was on this forum or someone I talked to in real life.

Is that you Goldenbrain? Hook me up brother.

Anyone got a connection? Not looking to purchase immediately but I will be looking at some point in the not to distant future.

Hi,
Cool idea! I just wanted to say that if you (or generally anyone) are looking for a Native American bow, and are going to pay money for this, make sure you actually support native crafts-people. I think there was a law passed not too long ago that non-native people do not have the right to sell "Native American crafts" and pass it off as authentic Amer. Indian. Another reason is that Amer. Indian people who do take up craftsmanship rely on this as an supplementary income, and there is much competition from non-native fake craftsmen.
One vendor/ craftspeople on the east coast where I live is the Wandering Bull (wanderingbull.com). They are a father/son run business and are Wampanoag out of Carver, MA. Not sure if they make bows though. If not a Google search should steer you in the right direction. And of course if you are a bit of a craftsman yourself you can always DIY it.

Kellen Bassette

08-08-2013, 06:51 PM

David Jamieson

08-09-2013, 06:09 AM

My father used to make real nice recurves, there is actually quite a bit involved in a hand made recurve bow, to get a high quality product. I'm sure there's a bit of a learning curve, probably for a good quality long bow as well...

Recurves are a long laminating process. They make fine bows in the end. My fav bow that I own still is a recurve and it has about 60 pounds of pull on it and is as good as a high - mid level compound hunting bow. Deadly at 50 yards.

GoldenBrain

08-09-2013, 09:18 PM

So Lucas, are you getting into archery for target shooting or hunting?

If you're target shooting then I'd recommend a recurve, but for hunting it's longbow all the way. I think the recurve shoots flatter with less pull and may be easier to master, while the longbow has a bit more arch at longer distances which takes a better archer. Also, the longbow is quieter so it doesn't startle game when hunting.

BTW, I hope your ankle is feeling better.

Lucas

08-12-2013, 12:58 PM

Hey thanks for the replies! I'll eventually get into hunting, but not until I've got my aim down. i've got a buddy that has experience shooting but is just getting back into it.

ive just got a cheap takedown longbow for target practice.

Thanks for those links goldenbrain! I think i'll start by practicing making my own arrows, then eventually try making my first bow.

ultimately i would like to be able to make a bow/arrow by walking into the woods with nothing. by be able meaning sure i could go in there and break some rocks, make an axe, cut down a tree yadda yadda. i don't think i'll ever go that far but if I get into it, after practicing with steel the first few times, then use stone tools.

one summer i made a bokken out of purple heart wood and some chisels, hammer, sandpaper....that shat was hard.

GeneChing

08-12-2013, 01:50 PM

Gene I'm also curious your experience between kyudo and western archery method. Kyudo was really hard. There was a lot of formality, a lot of posture and mindset. For western archery, I took a class in high school that was very minimal, just basic structure and methods, and then point and shoot. Then I dabbled with some friends who shot, so that was super informal. The Kyudo was formal, even though it was just sitting in for a few sessions. Kyudo is a 'do' not a 'jitsu', so you would anticipate such formality. Plus, those Kyudo bows are really hard to draw and steady. The western stuff I shot with was either pretty light or those crazy compound bows that are super smooth to draw.

was your kyudo more of an effeciency or meditative style? When you grasp zen, there is no distinction.

Lucas

08-12-2013, 03:14 PM

When you grasp zen, there is no distinction.

what are you asian or something?...oh wait, nvm. :D

Lucas

08-12-2013, 03:15 PM

BTW, I hope your ankle is feeling better.

oh and thanks. its getting there. im still mostly lamed, if I was a horse i'd be put down.

GeneChing

08-12-2013, 03:25 PM

what are you asian or something?...oh wait, nvm. :D

When you grasp zen, you see the Asian and the absence of Asian. There is no distinction.

Lucas

08-12-2013, 04:57 PM

Handful of Zen
By: Gene Ching

"There is no distinction."

Lucas

08-15-2013, 09:34 AM

I think this thread is missing some bow hotties...

http://www.bearpaw-blog.de/bilder/30082_4.jpg

http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Hot-Chick-Shoots-Bow-and-Arrow-With-Feet.jpg

Lucas

08-15-2013, 09:43 AM

also, for those with the exprience of it, what is it like to use your hand as the arrow rest vs a rest on the bow?

I know a lot of the modern rests give minimal contact to the fletchings, is there that much of a difference?

GoldenBrain

08-15-2013, 05:10 PM

I prefer no arrow rest for my longbow. I'm an instinctive shooter so it just feels better to me. I also tilt the bow a little to the right when shooting in order to open up the sight window and to make it easier to shoot when kneeling.

Lucas

08-16-2013, 10:37 AM

GeneChing

08-16-2013, 12:15 PM

...but you might have just launched a new KFM meme.

http://www.wallpaperhi.com/thumbnails/detail/20130108/women%20trees%20actress%20arrows%20archery%20jenni fer%20lawrence%20katniss%20everdeen%20the%20hunger %20games%20bow%20weapon_www.wallpaperhi.com_99.jpg
http://www.girlwallpaper.me/wallpaper/Keira-Knightley/Keira-Knightley-with-Bow-and-Arrow-1680x1050-18867.jpg
http://data.whicdn.com/images/22570341/wallpaper-1585713_large.jpg
http://th07.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2012/049/7/5/katniss__draw_arrow_2_by_kxhara-d4q6t3q.jpg
http://www.mykaussie.com/images/archerycwoc.jpg
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/350/030/30kansascitychiefs_display_image.jpg?1282189836
http://loveandfat.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/nicole-bow-and-arrow.jpg
http://blog.getitnext.com/.a/6a00d83455738669e20120a542708b970b-800wi

sanjuro_ronin

08-16-2013, 12:28 PM

I do recurve and am teaching my girls the recurve.

Lucas

08-16-2013, 01:35 PM

http://www.abbeyarchery.com.au/mm5/p7ssm_img_5/fullsize/Laura-Shooting-from-Tree_fs.jpg

http://www.hondashadow.net/forum/attachments/technical-discussion/2658d1312731177-another-seafoam-believer-arch5.jpg

GoldenBrain

08-16-2013, 11:06 PM

So i know modern bows (maybe some traditional bows idk) guide the bow string so that the string sets itself to the side in line with your sight so that the force behind the arrow is direct. on a traditional long bow, from what i can tell, the bow string rides down the center, causing another element of shooting, to adjust for the pull on the arrow from the offset bowstring.

am i understanding this correctly?

This may help...

I lifted the description below from this website: http://www.meta-synthesis.com/archery/archery.html

Also, here's a wiki link that has a decent description regarding the correct spine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer's_paradox

Simplified Arrow Dynamics: The "One Bend" Archer's Paradox

The term Archer's Paradox was coined in the mid 1930s by Dr. Robert P. Elmer to 'explain' why an arrow would hit a target when, from all appearances, it should strike to the left.

The archer's paradox is most clearly observed with traditional longbows that do not have a cut away in the riser for the arrow rest.

When shooting a traditional longbow, the arrow must point significantly to the left (for a right handed archer), yet a well shot arrow will shoot straight with respect to the centre shot line of the bow.

The "archer's paradox" is that the arrow shoots straight, even though it starts off pointing outwards.

7732

7733

The diagram below shows a simplified "one bend" explanation of the archer's paradox, and this is the explanation I give to beginners.

I say, "the string pushes the arrow which bends around the bow":

TOP DOWN VIEW OF ARROW, STRING & BOW

7734

The crucial point is that the arrow must be of the correct spine so that it dynamically bends around the bow, the fletchings/vanes do not touch the riser or arrow rest and the arrow flies cleanly to the target.

If an arrow of the wrong spine is shot, the fletchings, nock or arrow shaft will hit the bow. Indeed, consistently damaged fletchings/vanes are always an indication of poor arrow clearance.

Thus, the archer, bow and arrows must be matched with each other.

Syn7

08-18-2013, 01:41 PM

Gotta love physics. It feels like it's time to break out the HD and some controls.

I haven't had a chance to read the full article, but I did check the wiki really quick and read your post and I have a question.

When you say one bend, do you mean that it curves in then back out to shoot straight? Would it not actually be more complicated than that? Many bends decreasing with time/distance? So technically it doesn't really shoot straight at all? Or at least not on the first leg of travel?

I've never used a long bow, not counting the crap we made as kids, that is. I've only used newer bow styles. I would love to try this with different dynamic spines on film.

Oh, and god bless that woman in the tree!

GoldenBrain

08-18-2013, 04:08 PM

When you say one bend, do you mean that it curves in then back out to shoot straight? Would it not actually be more complicated than that? Many bends decreasing with time/distance? So technically it doesn't really shoot straight at all? Or at least not on the first leg of travel?

I believe an arrow ungulates back and forth all the way to it's target, and this stored kinetic energy is one of the reasons an arrow penetrates so deeply. I performed a quick search but couldn't find a good video on this type of action. My question now is how long would it take for an arrow to straighten out? My thoughts are that there isn't a bow with enough power to shoot an arrow far enough for it to straighten out completely, and if it did straighten out then how much energy would it loose?

Syn7

08-18-2013, 04:25 PM

I believe an arrow ungulates back and forth all the way to it's target, and this stored kinetic energy is one of the reasons an arrow penetrates so deeply. I performed a quick search but couldn't find a good video on this type of action. My question now is how long would it take for an arrow to straighten out? My thoughts are that there isn't a bow with enough power to shoot an arrow far enough for it to straighten out completely, and if it did straighten out then how much energy would it loose?

Yah, we're on the same page with that one. Maybe it would eventually fly straight on a really long shot on the downward leg of the arc. I would think, and this is pure bull**** speculation, that the power wouldn't matter as much as the actual arc in this scenario. Again, I would love to experiment with this. It would be tough over longer distances w/o a ridiculously expensive camera though. Just to buy one that would work on the range would be expensive enough, and you would need a few of em. Alas, I have not a one. It's on my list, but you know how that is. It's a long list, lol.

I did find a few slomos for short ranges, and it does indeed undulate right up to and after the impact. You can even see this in a modern bow. My guess is that deep penetration is due to undulation, like a snake, but also because it literally makes room for itself as it goes in reducing the friction on the shaft as it passes through before the tissues close back around it. Kinda like when you wiggle a stick to get it deep in the dirt. But again, pure speculation on my part. I do know that it can be tough to yank a target or field head from an animal sometimes.

You have peaked my interest. Hello youtube!

GoldenBrain

08-18-2013, 07:02 PM

I found a couple of neat slow motion videos showing the arrow in flight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO102jz8sFM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms4uTb5zkVI

Syn, I like the wiggle a stick in the dirt analogy. I think that's prolly right on.

Hebrew Hammer

08-19-2013, 11:28 PM

An interesting vid I came across, with some surprising results...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrOIQRnKcnc

I still think the English Long Bow had a higher rate of fire...but food for thought.

Check out the bow on this last chick...keep looking till you find it.

GoldenBrain

08-20-2013, 10:09 AM

Well, this thread certainly is easy on the eyes...:D

Lucas, you may be interested in this video series. This guy's method of bow building is pretty good and mixes some modern techniques with primitive construction nicely. As I've said before I don't use an arrow rest but other than that his bows turn out just like the longbows I like to use. Also, a good way to find cured Hickory and Osage Orange staves (also called hedge apple, horse apple, bois d'arc, bodark, or bodock) is to find somebody in your area that sells them as rough fence posts. Just make sure to find them with the bark still on one side. If you can find whole un-split poles that would be ideal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_bJe4CYo-A

GoldenBrain

08-20-2013, 10:20 AM

Here's another link you might be interested in. The blogger discusses various methods of aiming along with photo illustrations. I mostly just use instinctive and split vision to aim. One method this guy doesn't talk about is string walking but you can do a search on YT for that one. I have tried it and it works well for target practice, but string walking is a little to slow for hunting in my opinion.

http://charlesarcheryblog.wordpress.com/tag/split-vision-aiming/

Lucas

08-20-2013, 04:19 PM

So just to get aquanted with my bow i've been doing some short and medium range target shooting daily. i dont really know what my method is because i havnt researched different aiming approaches. i decided to just take the bow and some arrows and start shooting and what ever feels right i'll build on that. unless i sucked so bad i couldnt hit a target then i would start seeking advice.

here is what i do.

lol

i knock my arrow, and sight my target. keeping my eye on my target i draw and raise my bow. right now my bow is verticle. i keep my eye on my target and let it fly. i would say its kind of like shooting a rifle from the hip. i started by seeing how i missed my target and made adjustments. my horizontal was on right from the start but i was shooting high. so i pretty much just feel it out and adjust myself accordingly based on my shot pattern.

so far its feeling pretty good and im hitting my targets for the most part. shooting a bow just feels really natural i wish i would have started years ago because it's a lot of fun.

going out this weekend to brush up/work on my woodsmanship and go stump shooting. because my ultimate goal is to hunt i want to spend a good portion of my target shooting in the woods, rather than ranges (although i plan to log a good deal of time in ranges as well), dealing with variables, and improving my overall ability to spend long hours tracking and working with terrain.

Lucas

08-20-2013, 04:42 PM

Oh, I almost forgot.

http://img.totaloutdoornetwork.com/UserFiles/0/2/228/Laura3.jpg

http://www.archeryhistory.com/calendar/1-3-06/AHGirl2-1280.jpg

Lucas

08-21-2013, 09:14 AM

GoldenBrain

08-21-2013, 01:00 PM

so i read over that last link about aiming methods. it seems like im using instinctive shooting. i think i'll just keep doing what i'm doing it feels good. at first i tried aiming down the arrow and i just sucked, couldnt hit my target very well. then my buddy told me to just stare at the target, get it in my mind, then draw, hold for a moment to steady, then release. my aim improved dramatically after trying that.

You're right on the money. Instinctive is good for any level of shooter but especially when they are first learning. Try split vision next then work into gap aiming and you'll be holding 4" or less groups in no time. I may have missed this if you mentioned it but what kind of bow did you get?

Lucas

08-21-2013, 01:46 PM

Syn7

08-21-2013, 04:15 PM

is split vision when you look at the arrow and the target with both eyes open?

GoldenBrain

08-21-2013, 09:04 PM

Thanks for all the advice and info so far!

right now i just have a 40lb takedown longbow to learn with. not sure where i'll go from there. i would like to get a traditional native american longbow at some point, i'll contact a local tribe when im ready to buy..for this i'd like to meet the people making the bow for me. I'm interested in an english longbow and also really looking at eventually getting a korean hornbow.

Awesome! Have fun with it.

When you're ready and only if you want I could get you in contact with a really good bow maker from the Choctaw tribe. Might as well match it to your bloodline and this guy makes a hell of a good longbow. I believe he sells them for around $450.00.

GoldenBrain

08-21-2013, 09:15 PM

is split vision when you look at the arrow and the target with both eyes open?

Personally I think with any projectile aiming, from bows to guns you should keep both eyes open and use your dominant eye to aim with. I'm sure you get how to do this since you are a hunter but I could go into more detail on that if you like.

Split vision is not far off from instinctive where you only focus on the target and don't see the bow or arrow. With split vision you are focusing on the target and are also aware of the arrow shaft but are not using reference points like in gap aiming or other aiming techniques. When you combine the three, instinctive, split and gap for different circumstances you get a very fast set of aiming tools. Of course, there are more aiming methods and each person has to find their own way but the three mentioned are what I like best.

Lucas

08-22-2013, 08:59 AM

Awesome! Have fun with it.

When you're ready and only if you want I could get you in contact with a really good bow maker from the Choctaw tribe. Might as well match it to your bloodline and this guy makes a hell of a good longbow. I believe he sells them for around $450.00.

sweet. i believe i will likely take you up on that offer in the future when i am ready.

GoldenBrain

08-22-2013, 01:45 PM

sweet. i believe i will likely take you up on that offer in the future when i am ready.

Sounds good.

mawali

08-23-2013, 08:04 AM

Saw this great movie last week "War of the Arrows" (Korean) and it is about a Qing raiding party who massacre of family of traitors (probably a sub group or clan of the Qing, who are now traditionally Korean) and when they kill the leader of the clan, his children escape. The father, a archer (before he dies) tells son to go to his kinsmen to be protected. He learn archery. Years later, the same Qing raiding party comes upon the house of the kinsmen and the rest is the story.

Very interesting since archery, use of bow, types of bows (albeit in a Hollywood fashion) strength of the bow, etc. The martial arts sequences are muted as they should, since armies did rely on spears, swords and archery as their major weapons. Of course, later came the cannon, in many shapes and ranges!

**** of 5 stars for concept, originality and historical reference.

Lucas

08-23-2013, 09:20 AM

That movie is pretty good. I think I should re-watch this one pretty soon.

we have an older thread about that one here.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62677&highlight=war+arrows

Lucas

08-26-2013, 01:05 PM

shot about 360ish arrows this weekend between stump shooting and target shooting. worked on several ranges, inclined, decline, walking, crouching, turning, rising. improved my aim a lot and found out, at least at this point, instinctive shooting is my game. I did work on the split vision a bit, but my success at hitting the target is lower...so far.

my best rounds of accuracy came when i didnt take too much time to aim, but rather after my last arrow release, nock, draw and release with relatively quick pace.

I learned two things. I need a good forearm guard, per the big ass bruise on my left arm (i did use an on the spot impromtu guard but it wasnt thick enough) and a good archery glove. I used a leather glove through out the weekend but i didnt like the way it fit the ends of my fingers, and i don't know if it was thick enough leather. I guess not really a need and more of a personal prefernce as im sure my fingers will callous just fine.

definitely addicted.

I have a question though:

Breathing.

It completely spaced my thought to look into this. So i did a bit of personal experimentation regarding breathing and shooting.

My best accuracy came when i began to breath in, halfway through my breath in, i drew my bow and finished my breath as my draw came to full, held both for a moment, then released the arrow then released my air.

I assume this is proper, in case I need to hold my shot longer i'll have more oxygen to work with, and my frame will be at full expansion.

Does that sound about right?

bawang

08-26-2013, 01:14 PM

shot about 360ish arrows this weekend

u need stronger bow. u must be shooting wit baby poosy bow.

Lucas

08-26-2013, 01:22 PM

lol

i know ur being funny but i'll respond anyway, cuz im bad the fukc ass

40lb is fine, especially for a beginner. anywho 40 lb still has killing power.

from what i can gather a 45 lb bow is about equivelant to a 30-06 rifle.

sooo :p

u jus jealous cuz u can only pull the 20 lb kiddy bows cuz ur arms are soft like flacid noodle

Lucas

08-27-2013, 08:50 AM

so in regards to my breathe question, i did find this:

http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/Technique/BreathingCycle/BreathingCycle.html

The correct method of breathing is an essential part of the archer's system of control. Most archers know less about the proper method of breath control than any of the other fundamentals. Therefore, the archer who understands their breathing and its impact on performance and who can be aware of their own state of arousal is the archer who, everything being equal, is going to be the most successful.

Bear in mind that an anxious mind cannot exist in a relaxed body or a quiet mind can not exist in a tense body.

Also remember that thoughts associated with worry and anxiety, affect heart rate, muscle tension and breathing rate. This change in muscle tension and breathing rate will have a negative affect on an archer's fine motor coordination, focus, center of gravity and timing; all critical components in archery.

Therefore, breathing properly is not only relaxing; it also facilitates performance by increasing the amount of oxygen in the blood, reducing blood pressure, heart rate, resulting in a drop of anxiety. Breathing properly also carries more energy to the muscles and facilitates the removal of waste products.

Consequently, proper breathing is an essential and fundamental factor of concentration. Ordinarily, when calm, we breathe 12 to 15 times a minute, but when anxious this can double. The majority of people only breathe superficially, using only the top part of their lungs or one-sixth of the capacity of their lungs. However, one can learn to breathe more deeply and slowly, about five to six deep calm breaths a minute. To this purpose the archer must learn diaphragmatic breathing, also known as Zen Breathing. This should be practiced every day, as a focus/relaxation exercise till it becomes second nature. This type of breathing has been described in detail in Total Archery and there are also many detailed references to it on the internet.

Breathing and breath control during the shot cycle.
There are various theories regarding this, but Coach Lee, from his twenty-five years of coaching, will discuss the two ways that he has found has given him the best results with his archers; refer diagram below.

http://www.kslinternationalarchery.com/Technique/BreathingCycle/KSLIII-IV.jpg
These two ways are, Option 1 (white dotted line) mostly used with developing archers, but can work equally well with experienced archers, and Option 2 (blue dotted line) for the more experienced tournament archer, who has acquired good technique.

Option 1
A deep diaphragmatic settling breath should be taken prior to raising the bow.
With the focus on the target a normal breath, using diaphragmatic breathing, is taken between Raising the Bow and Set-Up. This not only has a settling effect, but will also lower the center of gravity. Further, it will help the archer to increase their focus and aids in not rushing the draw.
Whilst drawing from Set-Up inhale as part of the drawing rhythm, which will create a natural feeling of gaining strength.
From the beginning of the Loading/Transfer to the Holding phase, when aiming should commence, approximately 30-50%the breath should be let out slowly and naturally, allowing the sight to naturally settle in the aiming area.
From this point the breath must be held till after the release and let out naturally during the follow-through.

When an archer becomes more advanced and has acquired a good technique the breathing cycle can be modified as follows.

Option2
A deep diaphragmatic settling breath should be taken and exhaled prior to raising the bow.
Whilst raising the bow inhale deeply and naturally, employing the diaphragmatic breathing technique, which will create a natural feeling of gaining strength.
When coming to full draw, but before anchoring, approximately 30-50% of the breath must be let out slowly and naturally and then held from this point onwards till after the release and let out naturally during the follow-through.
After 30-50% of the air has been expelled from the lungs, the breath is then held (Valsalva manoeuvre*). This will create a much more stable trunk and therefore stronger body. Also refer to Ratio of Movement under KSL Shot Cycle Step 9 and Archery Technique, elsewhere on this website

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note:
Many of the world top archers, including some Koreans, use Option 2 or some varying form of it. However, Coach Lee feels that the Option 1 breathing cycle has many advantages even for international competitive archers. By employing this first initial breath whilst raising the bow, it will settle the archer more in a rhythm and increase focus. However, whatever method is used the valsalva manoeuvre (inflated/tightened abdomen) must be employed. Nonetheless, in the end each archer must work out what works best for them.

Valsalva Manoeuvre
The Valsalva Manouevre can also be described as creating an inflated feeling in the abdomen.
We all use the body's natural ability of increasing strength by sub-consciously performing the Valsalva manoeuvre. To explain the Valsalva manoeuvre I will use the analogy of using a spanner to undo a rather stubborn nut on a bolt. When you first try it, , and you can't get it undone by using reasonable force you will increase the intensity and pull harder with maximum effort.

Try it and you will notice that to generate more force you will, without thinking, hold your breath and tighten the abdomen for 3-4 seconds. This is the feeling you need to create when coming to anchor and continue to just after release.

Note:
The body increases blood pressure by additional 100 points very quickly with this natural action. Clearly, this is dangerous to older adults with potential for strokes and it can be dangerous to some young athletes.

Syn7

08-27-2013, 10:06 AM

That's pretty cool. I never thought about my breath control, but I can see it in the graphic.

Lucas, you should document your experience. Map the progress and all that.

GoldenBrain

08-27-2013, 10:42 AM

It looks like you're doing well Lucas. I think the breathing control is very similar to martial arts or other shooting sports for that matter. At some point you will just quit thinking about it and it'll come naturally.

Here's a hint with instinctive shooting. You don't want to hold for very long at all. It's more of a pull and release method and when you release you kind of push into the shot with your bow hand.

I could be wrong but I believe it was sanjuro who posted a speed shooting archery video in another thread which was awesome. I ran across another person on youtube who is really good at speed shooting, but instead of holding all the arrows in her hand she pulls them from a quiver. Below are two videos of her and one of a lecture on how to do this. It's all in Russian but you really don't need to understand the language to get the gist of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o9RGnujlkI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL1W3HkjJ2Y

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6B6vAXQtx0

sanjuro_ronin

08-27-2013, 11:51 AM

Instinctive shooting is all about the form and speed shooting even more so.
You kind of just find that rhythm and even without looking the arrow find their target.

Breathing is very individualistic, the thing is to find the method that steadies your hand the best for YOU.

Then it is all repetition and good form.

And FOLLOW THROUGH !
:mad:

Lucas

08-27-2013, 01:09 PM

that must be why my accuracy went up when i gave myself less aim time.

Lucas

08-27-2013, 02:16 PM

That's pretty cool. I never thought about my breath control, but I can see it in the graphic.

Lucas, you should document your experience. Map the progress and all that.

thats a good idea. i suppose after a fashion, i am here. lol i should keep a journal. Similar to a 19th century british naval captains log, or a small 12 year old school girls diary.

Syn7

08-28-2013, 10:31 AM

thats a good idea. i suppose after a fashion, i am here. lol i should keep a journal. Similar to a 19th century british naval captains log, or a small 12 year old school girls diary.

Well... I was thinkin Vlog, but yeah, a strawberry shortcake diary would work too. Maybe you can take polaroids! :p

GeneChing

08-30-2013, 05:50 PM

I was searching for a repost to this (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1246765#post1246765).
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7255/7647395028_ddb2fce7db_b.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7122/7647384106_bc7079fb6a_z.jpg
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8012/7647375750_e4a19f9a5a_c.jpg

Lucas

09-03-2013, 10:38 AM

i'll take two please....

Kellen Bassette

09-03-2013, 05:56 PM

How does she shoot that without a string? :confused:

GoldenBrain

09-03-2013, 07:23 PM

How does she shoot that without a string? :confused:

The obvious answer here is who cares...:p Even if that bow had a string I'm pretty sure that silly arrow would bite the dust after a dramatic death spiral of say maybe 10 yards or so.

What I find really humorous about this is that I consider myself a very observant person however, I completely missed this minor detail until you mentioned it.:o

Lucas

09-04-2013, 09:03 AM

there was a bow in those pictures?

mawali

09-04-2013, 04:41 PM

It's a qi string! Can't you see it? I see it:D

GeneChing

09-05-2013, 10:33 AM

I don't think cosplayers (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65633) care about function. They are only into form.

Syn7

09-05-2013, 11:01 AM

Bawangs yellow dragon techniques uses a qi string.

GeneChing

01-29-2015, 10:34 AM

Here we have drive-by shootings. In China, it's drive-by archery?

Man shot by arrow while hanging clothes at home in Changsha (http://shanghaiist.com/2015/01/20/man_shot_by_arrow_while_hanging_clo.php)

http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/katienelson/arrow-knee1.jpg

Well this is terrifying. A 51-year-old man was hanging clothes on the balcony of his home in Changsha, Hunan province when he was suddenly hit in the knee by an arrow.

The man, surnamed Wang, was rushed to the Changsha Central Hospital on January 17 with the metal arrow pierced nearly 12 centimeters deep into his bent knee, according to Xiaoxiang Morning News. It had reportedly belonged to Wang's neighbor, an archery enthusiast surnamed Liang, who was practicing shooting around 50 meters away at the garden of their community compound when the arrow went loose.

http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/katienelson/arrow-knee2.jpg

Wang underwent emergency surgery and as of yesterday, was still in the hospital under observation. It's likely he will have difficulty using his leg and an aversion to the smell of fresh laundry for a long while, both of which outcomes are just terrible.

David Jamieson

02-02-2015, 02:21 PM

"I used to watch Chinese drive buys, but then I took an arrow to the knee." - Dragonborn

(This is a Skyrim joke. If you don't get it, it's because you haven't payed Skyrim or are unfamiliar with the meme)

boxerbilly

02-08-2016, 08:31 PM

Not that insane but really cool for any archers among us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr7iD3pjmSU

boxerbilly

02-08-2016, 08:34 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

Jimbo

02-09-2016, 07:26 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk

That is awesome.

I've always wondered why archers are taught to shoot the arrow from the left side of the bow. It always seemed like it would be unnatural to me, especially in a combat situation, and this guy's shooting with the arrow from the right side shows that my suspicions were correct. Caveat: I am NOT an archer. Those were simply my thoughts/observations.

Cataphract

02-10-2016, 01:21 AM

I've always wondered why archers are taught to shoot the arrow from the left side of the bow.
In Kyudo you actually hold the arrow on the outside. But on the inside there is something called the archer's paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer%27s_paradox) making the arrow fly straight. I guess both methods have some merit.

bawang

02-10-2016, 08:31 AM

That is awesome.

I've always wondered why archers are taught to shoot the arrow from the left side of the bow. It always seemed like it would be unnatural to me, especially in a combat situation, and this guy's shooting with the arrow from the right side shows that my suspicions were correct. Caveat: I am NOT an archer. Those were simply my thoughts/observations.

its a skill needed to shoot real war bows. ability to switch arms doubles the endurance of foot archers and allows horse archers to shoot 360 degrees, or lets you use one arm for archery while the other is fresh for melee combat.

the lifetime of training for real bows were to be able to shoot 120+ lb bows 100 times while maintaining accuracy, not prancing around trick shooting with 10 lb wood toy bows. just look at that danish guys hunched back and skinny arms, hes a fuk up.

sanjuro_ronin

02-10-2016, 10:49 AM

I have trained in both left and right side when I was doing archery and the simple truth is:
What works best for you is what you train, period.

Cataphract

02-10-2016, 11:26 AM

its a skill needed to shoot real war bows. ability to switch arms doubles the endurance of foot archers and allows horse archers to shoot 360 degrees,

That's a different problem. The video talks about sticking the arrow to the inside or the outside of the bow from the archer's perspective when drawing the bow. The outside method is faster because the arrow does not have to be threaded through the frame. Real ambidexterity with bow and arrow is hard to achieve because you have one dominant eye. Not that it matters that much when shooting volleys.

bawang

02-10-2016, 05:12 PM

That's a different problem. The video talks about sticking the arrow to the inside or the outside of the bow from the archer's perspective when drawing the bow. The outside method is faster because the arrow does not have to be threaded through the frame. Real ambidexterity with bow and arrow is hard to achieve because you have one dominant eye. Not that it matters that much when shooting volleys.

he is literally making sh1t up. he literally admits on video he self taught by reading a story book about archery. not even technique just stories. i have broken those wood toy bows after shooting 5 times

traditional archery use both side draws for either fast shooting or sniping, theres nothing mysterious about it, hes just having one of those convoluted talks blowing hot air, you see it in tai chi or wing chun all the time.

boxerbilly

02-10-2016, 07:21 PM

its a skill needed to shoot real war bows. ability to switch arms doubles the endurance of foot archers and allows horse archers to shoot 360 degrees, or lets you use one arm for archery while the other is fresh for melee combat.

the lifetime of training for real bows were to be able to shoot 120+ lb bows 100 times while maintaining accuracy, not prancing around trick shooting with 10 lb wood toy bows. just look at that danish guys hunched back and skinny arms, hes a fuk up.

Well, I guess Apache killed with their toy bows then.

120 lbs on those old bows would be a long bow. Unless is was primitive backed/laminated.

Lars uses a 35lb draw and he does not always draw fully as one might see on his rapid fire shots. I wonder if your iron body will stop his toy bows arrow from penetrating you? Id pay to see and Ill even bet on you . Heck, you could probably catch the arrow and spit it back at him Bawang.

Please post yours or anyone else doing what he does. Got your hands on some Mongol bowman footage?

boxerbilly

02-10-2016, 07:23 PM

he is literally making sh1t up. he literally admits on video he self taught by reading a story book about archery. not even technique just stories. i have broken those wood toy bows after shooting 5 times

traditional archery use both side draws for either fast shooting or sniping, theres nothing mysterious about it, hes just having one of those convoluted talks blowing hot air, you see it in tai chi or wing chun all the time.

Even more impressive. He read a freaking book and can do what almost no one else alive can. But please, share the others videos. He cant be the only one. I bet you could find someone someplace doing what he does with your HolyGrail 120lb LongBow at 52 years of age.

bawang

02-10-2016, 08:01 PM

Well, I guess Apache killed with their toy bows then.

120 lbs on those old bows would be a long bow. Unless is was primitive backed/laminated.

Lars uses a 35lb draw and he does not always draw fully as one might see on his rapid fire shots. I wonder if your iron body will stop his toy bows arrow from penetrating you? Id pay to see and Ill even bet on you . Heck, you could probably catch the arrow and spit it back at him Bawang.

Please post yours or anyone else doing what he does. Got your hands on some Mongol bowman footage?

35 lb is literally picking up a sack of potatoes. any crippled retard can do what he does. theres nothing hard about trick shooting toy bows. thats why its a hunch backed danish eunuch and not real turkic archery masters on that video, because they dont mess around with stupid bullsh1t like that and real living archery traditions dont fuk around with that gay prancing and dancing sh1t. you would know if you actually tried real archery.

i understand you being amazed by it since you cant even do 20 fukin pushups and dont even train any real martial arts.

Even more impressive. He read a freaking book and can do what almost no one else alive can. But please, share the others videos. He cant be the only one. I bet you could find someone someplace doing what he does with your HolyGrail 120lb LongBow at 52 years of age.

anyone can do what that pasty scandanavian virgin does with 4 hrs of practice in one day. he is literally plucking the bow like a guitar, like 10 lb draw strength, shooting a little plate 5 feet in front of him. even aids patient can do this.

120 lb draw strength is what traditional kung fu considers famous master level archery. below that you are nobody. minimum human waste failure cannon fodder requirement in chinese army was 70 lb draw. english long bowmen from average peasant was 80lb to 90lb draw. if you actually train kung fu and is not a hilly billy krotty online verbal ego stroker you would know this.

boxerbilly

02-10-2016, 09:23 PM

35 lb is literally picking up a sack of potatoes. any crippled retard can do what he does. theres nothing hard about trick shooting toy bows. thats why its a hunch backed danish eunuch and not real turkic archery masters on that video, because they dont mess around with stupid bullsh1t like that and real living archery traditions dont fuk around with that gay prancing and dancing sh1t. you would know if you actually tried real archery.

i understand you being amazed by it since you cant even do 20 fukin pushups and dont even train any real martial arts.

anyone can do what that pasty scandanavian virgin does with 4 hrs of practice in one day. he is literally plucking the bow like a guitar, like 10 lb draw strength, shooting a little plate 5 feet in front of him. even aids patient can do this.

120 lb draw strength is what traditional kung fu considers famous master level archery. below that you are nobody. minimum human waste failure cannon fodder requirement in chinese army was 70 lb draw. english long bowmen from average peasant was 80lb to 90lb draw. if you actually train kung fu and is not a hilly billy krotty online verbal ego stroker you would know this.

Well I know you can't. In fact, I know you never could. That's a fact. Don't worry Bawang, your in good company. 99.9% of the world could not do that. Not with 4 hours a day. Not with 5. Not with anything. But im just a Hillbilly and your just a dumb**** that write dumb**** **** constantly like a couple of other.

And the reason is- YOU'RE THE BEST BAWANG !!!! You are the best! You are so ****ing hard dude, nothing could break your back except taking a breath !

70 something was my best push up number.

There was a time I did 300 a day. Total of course, not all at once. But then again,if you did the push ups as you directed me to and were honest. Where do you fall ? You are a chump dude !

boxerbilly

02-10-2016, 09:29 PM

Bawang, you have a good night trying to trash me and who ever else you like to. Im hitting the sack.

Cataphract

02-11-2016, 02:11 AM

he is literally making sh1t up. he literally admits on video he self taught by reading a story book about archery. not even technique just stories. i have broken those wood toy bows after shooting 5 times

Breaking bows happen and you don't want to be near that. Mr. Andersen has already been thoroughly thrashed for his claims, but what he does certainly looks fun and takes some skill.

traditional archery use both side draws for either fast shooting or sniping, theres nothing mysterious about it, hes just having one of those convoluted talks blowing hot air, you see it in tai chi or wing chun all the time.
What traditional archery are you talking about? Kyudo draws on the outside. Real Turkish archery draws on the outside. Japanese yumi usually have a draw strength up 30kg.
Ever seen one of the Khoe-San people's bows? The most traditional there is. You could probably break it with one hand. But then you'd go hungry in the Okawango delta.

boxerbilly

02-11-2016, 10:31 AM

Most bows of the Iroquois nation would have a draw weight very similar to Lars bow. 30-45 pounds, depending on the archer. Short light fast bows. Meant for close kills and rapid fire. Look up Hiawatha.

Its all tactics and battleground. What works where. You can get more umph from a lighter bow by using heavier arrows. I read a 88lbs draw penetrated a English tank. Plate steel. Those 100+ bows and those 200lb monster. There was maybe one guy that could even pull the **** thing in any army. Maybe a dozen in the world at anyone time. Probably meant for a try and hit the enemy commander from far out and if we do, we might just win with one shot. Up close, in wooded areas. Screw the longbow ! Better for open fields and shooting down from the Great Wall.

Lars proved he could go through riveted chain mail with his 35 pound draw. And could shot 10 arrows accurately in like 2 seconds. Besting even the fastest speed shooters. Pretty sure a 50lb draw could penetrate breast plate armour. You would have to land flush and be at the proper distances.

Those super long shots are meaningless. Even if they get to a target they lose all force and they are not going through armour at great distance. Not going to happen! One may get lucky and nail a leg or face but it is mostly luck if you put someone down from real far out. Once on the battle field with friend and foe alike clustered. ByeBye Long bow unless you don't mind killing your guys. Get to close and a guys with a smaller, lighter bows will drop you. Long bows severed a very specific purpose. LONG RANGE.

This idea that Old archers were so much stronger than people today is utter nonsense. Todays archers are probably stronger as a whole than days past. The rare bow god always exists.

People are not going to ride horse back and use 150lb draws. That is just made up crap. Again, a handful of people could maybe do it. Not every **** bowmen. For the most part, then as now. Most suck ! Some are okay. Some very good and a very few are amazing. Capable of things Lars can do or guys that can pull a 100+ bow. Not many can then or now !

Those bows for on that ship. The bowmen were probably the best long range archers England had and they all died. Why so many bows at that weight? Well, they each probably had different bows for different ranges. And back ups. The average English bowmen probably used a 50lb draw and under most of the time. Maybe carried a 80ish for medium range.

I don't care what China sold people that all their archers had to pull this weight with both arms all freaking day long. It is BULL! Because if they had that many that could do it then with small undernourished soldiers, well we should have an equal amount ( ratio wise ) capable of the same today and we do not ! That is telling !

bawang

02-19-2016, 08:42 AM

This idea that Old archers were so much stronger than people today is utter nonsense. Todays archers are probably stronger as a whole than days past. The rare bow god always exists.

People are not going to ride horse back and use 150lb draws. That is just made up crap. Again, a handful of people could maybe do it. Not every **** bowmen. For the most part, then as now. Most suck ! Some are okay. Some very good and a very few are amazing. Capable of things Lars can do or guys that can pull a 100+ bow. Not many can then or now !

you literally cannot imagine someone stronger than a office cubicle worker, then it is impossible. which is pathetic since most white people can deadlift 400-500 lb after 2 to 3 years of training. 100lb draw bow is like pullup with 200 lb bodyweight. 150lb draw is perfectly reasonable for any football guys that can row 300 lb. but that takes hard training. this norweigian nerd is the wing chun of archery. he doesnt deserve to be on tv. you are mad because me criticizing him made you look bad since you were fawning over him. you think hendrik is a skilled master. and you are old. you have no future in martial arts, its finished for you, you wasted your youth when you could have been good in your hobby.

What traditional archery are you talking about? Kyudo draws on the outside. Real Turkish archery draws on the outside. Japanese yumi usually have a draw strength up 30kg.
Ever seen one of the Khoe-San people's bows? The most traditional there is. You could probably break it with one hand. But then you'd go hungry in the Okawango delta.

chinese archery text. you are really trying to lecture me on traditional martial arts when you ask for 4 months what is tongbei?

sanjuro_ronin

02-19-2016, 09:12 AM

RE Draw weights:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

Draw weights[edit]
Estimates for the draw of these bows varies considerably. Before the recovery of the Mary Rose, Count M. Mildmay Stayner, Recorder of the British Long Bow Society, estimated the bows of the Medieval period drew 90–110 pounds-force (400–490 newtons), maximum, and Mr. W.F. Paterson, Chairman of the Society of Archer-Antiquaries, believed the weapon had a supreme draw weight of only 80–90 lbf (360–400 N).[2] Other sources suggest significantly higher draw weights. The original draw forces of examples from the Mary Rose are estimated by Robert Hardy at 150–160 lbf (670–710 N) at a 30-inch (76.2 cm) draw length; the full range of draw weights was between 100–185 lbf (440–820 N).[9] The 30-inch (76.2 cm) draw length was used because that is the length allowed by the arrows commonly found on the Mary Rose.

A modern longbow's draw is typically 60 lbf (270 N) or less, and by modern convention measured at 28 inches (71.1 cm). Historically, hunting bows usually had draw weights of 50–60 lbf (220–270 N), which is enough for all but the very largest game and which most reasonably fit adults can manage with practice. Today, there are few modern longbowmen capable of using 180–185 lbf (800–820 N) bows accurately.[10][11]

A record of how boys and men trained to use the bows with high draw weights survives from the reign of Henry VII.

"[My yeoman father] taught me how to draw, how to lay my body in my bow ... not to draw with strength of arms as divers other nations do ... I had my bows bought me according to my age and strength, as I increased in them, so my bows were made bigger and bigger. For men shall never shoot well unless they be brought up to it."

— Hugh Latimer.[12]
What Latimer meant when he describes laying his body into the bow was described thus:

the Englishman did not keep his left hand steady, and draw his bow with his right; but keeping his right at rest upon the nerve, he pressed the whole weight of his body into the horns of his bow. Hence probably arose the phrase "bending the bow," and the French of "drawing" one.

— W. Gilpin.[13]

Mongol bow:

http://www.coldsiberia.org/monbow.htm

The Mongol bow is not as large and long as the English one, but it is vastly more powerful. The draw weight of an English longbow averages around 70-80 pounds, whereas the Old Mongol bow had a pull that, according to George Vernadsky, averaged at around 166 pounds. Chambers states that the pull varied from 100 to 160 pounds. This seeming discrepancy certainly reflects the fact that draw weight varied with the strength of the user, and with what use the bow had been made for. As could be expected, there was a considerable difference in shooting range. Whereas the English longbow could shoot at distances up to 250 yards or around 228 meters, the Mongol counterpart can hit its target at 350 yards or 320 meters and, if the archer is well trained for the task, even beyond that.

Cataphract

02-19-2016, 01:40 PM

chinese archery text. you are really trying to lecture me on traditional martial arts when you ask for 4 months what is tongbei?
I'm stating some simple facts without taking four months of preparation. I am trying to learn something and not to have pointless arguments.

But on topic, I found some nice quotations by the great sage:

The Superior Man has nothing to compete for. But if he must compete, he does it in an archery match, wherein he ascends to his position, bowing in deference.

In archery we have something like the way of the superior man. When the archer misses the center of the target, he turns round and seeks for the cause of his failure in himself.

boxerbilly

02-19-2016, 03:12 PM

you literally cannot imagine someone stronger than a office cubicle worker, then it is impossible. which is pathetic since most white people can deadlift 400-500 lb after 2 to 3 years of training. 100lb draw bow is like pullup with 200 lb bodyweight. 150lb draw is perfectly reasonable for any football guys that can row 300 lb. but that takes hard training. this norweigian nerd is the wing chun of archery. he doesnt deserve to be on tv. you are mad because me criticizing him made you look bad since you were fawning over him. you think hendrik is a skilled master. and you are old. you have no future in martial arts, its finished for you, you wasted your youth when you could have been good in your hobby.

chinese archery text. you are really trying to lecture me on traditional martial arts when you ask for 4 months what is tongbei?

Oh for **** sakes. I know nothing about Hendrick. I could care less what anyone's opinion of the guy is. He wrote a book. Did you ? He put himself out there. Did you? I wish the guy loads of success. So what? Seems a nice guy and means well. If someone does not like his stuff, don't buy it. Simple as that !

Buddy, just because some dudes can pull a 200lb bow does not mean they can use the freaking bow. Nor can they do it all **** day long. Yes, Ive seen vids of guys pulling heavy bows. BIG DEAL ! It means nothing to me. There is even a guy pulling a 6 foot whatever longbow on Youtube and he actually sinks the arrow from 10 feet away, LOL. That's my point ! Show me the hundreds or thousands capable of that LEGEND. You wont. They don't exist and they never did ! As you pointed out and I do not agree it is white exclusive, we are stronger now than ever before.

As for me being done. I agree. My days of stepping into a ring are over. How did you do when you fought a guy in gloves trying to actually take your head off and beat the crap out of you? How did you do on the street? Lose teeth? Need stitches? Break anything? I suspect you still fight full contact right? Is that real kung fu ? Is that push up routine ( thank you) real kung fu? Is there real kung fu ? And with your stability issues buddy. Why are you still here. I bet your done too !

boxerbilly

02-19-2016, 03:22 PM

boxerbilly

02-19-2016, 03:25 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJpF2qJjFnA

Yep, I would love to see some idiot chase me into the woods with that contraption, LOL.

WARBOW held by a TARGET !

boxerbilly

02-19-2016, 03:47 PM

RE Draw weights:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow

Mongol bow:

http://www.coldsiberia.org/monbow.htm

I disagree regardless what bows they find. English, Mongol, whatever. They vast majority were not pulling 100 pound bows. As stated the bow was made for the user. So, England needs another bowmen. ****, the old ones got shot by weaker bows at a closer range or drowned in that ship. So, they have to draft youngmen around 15. Yeah, hand him the 100 pound bow. Nope, he will get a weaker bow he can use. But it is not a warbow because he is not pulling 100+? CRAP ! Most people then and now do not have the bone structure for this. Just like then and now do not have the bone structure to be fighters. We have not changed physically.

Same for Mongols. The ELITE used those heavy pulls. I bet the average guy used around 50 like everyone else does. Half your army bowmen would be out on injury incapable of pulling a bow if they used such heavy draws all day long as Bawang believes they did. I guess some people believe their shoulders muscle were way stronger than today. I don't !

As for technique. Thank you sir. It is similar to the bent press. Basically the English were holding the string and pushing the bow. Bent press, hold the weight and lower the body away.Still, few then as now capable of doing that with a massive pull.

boxerbilly

02-19-2016, 03:59 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLlBNnQg6Bs

BIG GUY !

boxerbilly

02-19-2016, 04:02 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrzPFIjAZdU

Strong guy.

If you are not built like these guys, GOOD LUCK !

I wonder how many Mongol and English bowmen had these types of body capable of sustained heavy pulls ? But, no way either guy does this all day or 100 arrows either hand back to back. LEGENDS or MYTHS.

boxerbilly

02-19-2016, 04:06 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCgu33DawxE

Im not watching it to count but again, better be looking like these guys or your just a joke that uses toy bow and arrows, LOL.

Of course 50lbs will drop just about anything alive but that is regardless I guess.

boxerbilly

02-19-2016, 04:21 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itmi4aLvd3o

I'll let you guys decide if a 50lb ancient bow could go through armour plate or chain at the right "close" distance. Which is normally where most archers were employed. Pretty **** close by anyone's standards Id say. Not some super far off shooters trying to snipe dudes from way out for that time.

boxerbilly

02-19-2016, 04:50 PM

RANGE- how many guys then or now are capable of even this shot? Long bows can maybe double this range but who can freaking see that far ? So, it was LUCK. And armys lined up and you are just lobbing arrows in that direction. IT WORKED because of the formations. But guess what. At 100yeard even an out of shape dude could cover it in less than 30 seconds at a run. So lets say a in shape guy is weighed down. Hell lets say it takes him a full minute to get to you but now, there is thousands also making that run at you. This delusional if you understand the battleground. No what happens is both sides cluster **** in the center so now, you long bow man are next to useless. But a guy with a weaker faster bow that can shoot straight and not up in the air can actually drop you real close even in armour.

Now a 50 lb bow can reach as far as the video but it probably will not be effective. Have a bunch of back up 80lb and your still good at that range. Yeah, archers only carried one bow to war or did not have different ones for different ranges or custom arrows for certain targets, etc. Then as now, same same. So it was a numbers game and England showed up with more archers. Lobbing arrows and dropping guys before they got to the center but eventually it all goes to center. Your heavy long bow is now useless for combat. You cant use it fast enough. Again, save the rare individual. You can forgot those massive 150+ bows found on that ship. No one is going to pull fast enough before he is put down by another. Better to use a lighter bow and stay more mobile. And I belive there would be guys like Lars on the fields. Just like those super long pull guys youll have super gifted up close guys. Most fall in the middle. Nothing special.

I can shoot 200 meters. Of course I cant see what I am shooting at but man, the arrow will end up there. That's shooting ? That's a question I am not capable of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ew74X5z3Rgo

boxerbilly

02-19-2016, 05:02 PM

But sadly he is not using even a 50lb bow. Mere 49. ***** ! Little toy bow man. I can't wait for Bawang to ***** slap you. Real men use 500lb man bow weak hand or you get head chop off. Better guy home now you done forever weak old man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAHsAiATnak

boxerbilly

02-19-2016, 09:02 PM

Oh what the heck.

My theory on those really heavy bows. They were to make guys stronger for using the lighter bows. Not meant for actual combat. Exercise bows. That's what I think anyway. I have no proof. That's the problem. We build "proof" based on what was written which often suffers in translation. Through myth and legends and combine it with what we know now. Often creating the most improbable beliefs when we really have no one or very limited ones capable of even a tenth of legend. Then if we look at it logically we often miss the simplest reason "why" may be.

The English Longbow was great for its intended use, shooting relatively close at an enemy "in force" and having those arrows drop down on them from above but would suffer greatly if not in the proper battle field or if the enemy changed tactics. If they changed tactics lighter bows ruled the day. Shortbowmen flanked and used hit and run tactics. Longbowmen died when that happened . This was done either on horseback or foot. A horse is much easier to hit than a man. So many shortbowmen would end up on foot. Rapid, accurate fire. Everybody talks and worries of power. But the simple fact is most guys were not armoured up like we think. You had to buy your own gear, LOL. People skimp of that ****. Want ***** and ale this week or a chest plate or a new mail shirt? Legs are always a target and shortbowmen close up probably had great control and accuracy. The longbow tactic was not the greatest thing ever. In the end it was defeated. They got outflanked and guys developed better armour. Not always of steel, hint.

I still stand by my assertion most men of any time period can not use a 100+ bow effectively very long. Most cant use it period. And though there will always be someone that can prove they can do it, that does not mean they all can do it. And again, I believe the very heavy bows were exercise bows not meant for battle. So why would they be carrying exercise bows to battle areas? Well, if they won, they may be there awhile. Their new home. After all they are now occupying this land. But there is always a bruiser that will grab a big bow and fire arrows. His probably arc-ed to far, LOL. Go find a 60-80 pound long bow and see how easy that is to pull. Or push. Whatever your technique.

mawali

02-19-2016, 11:14 PM

When you have an army running en masse towards the adversary, the use of the bow is great, i.e. a phalanx of trained bowmen aiming at the oncoming horde so there is an actual mass of targets. As you get close then you switch to spear (the next phalanx) then face to face as the distance is narrowed, wiht the sword. So proximity will determine the type of weapon at x quarters.
The better bowmen may have individual "targets" but I am guessing that this is an exception per skill versus the general bowman who uses his tools on the oncoming army as a way to close the gap.
Modern day warfare uses a similar tactic, where one would substitute the barrage of cannons (modern) to the earlier tactic of raining arrows as a way for the enemy to humker doen, then the wave of horsemen follows then the lancers, etc

Kellen Bassette

02-21-2016, 12:10 PM

A 50 pound bow is plenty strong enough to kill a deer, (or a man.) While I'm no expert, I would expect Mawali is right. Aside from strength training, I imagine the purpose of 100 pound plus bows was for long distance shooting at an advancing an army. "Raining arrows" on them.

boxerbilly

02-21-2016, 04:15 PM

Exactly. They are called WarBows for a reason. They were not used any where else ! There would not be a Englishman alive then tamping through the woods with sucha monster. 6feet plus. He may use a shorter long bow of 4 feet but it will not be anywhere near 100 lbs . He certainly would never hunt with it. It has limited use. And once people understood where it was strong they defeated the tactic.

In that time long range was not that far apart. That distance is potentially closed rapidly. Those bows lose effectiveness when people get to close. They are simply to large in length. In the beginning the English could hold off the entire enemy but that rather quickly started to be less and less effective.

The Mongol bows are much more multipurpose because of their size. Laminates probably would not hold up well in the weather conditions of Britan. The English could make laminates as well.

Some people mistake weight with effectiveness. It was greatly effective if used properly. Their were lots of archers to rotate out for breaks. So, yes you can have a good amount of men using 100lb bows but not for long and no way all day. It is simply not replicable today which means, it is a myth ! Most guys wont be pulling that weight more than 12-20 times before they are done! For proof, just watch youtube vids of guys capable of pulling a hundred pound bow. How long do they last? How fast are they pulling? Are they living up to legend?

boxerbilly

02-21-2016, 04:32 PM

And before anyone suggests the 100year war. IT WAS NOT the longbow that made the war go 100 years. For if it was, I would flat out tell you, the longbow SUCKED ! Which for all intent purpose, I believe it does. Now the shorter longbow is a good bow. Not a short bow. A short- longbow.

Kellen Bassette

02-21-2016, 04:46 PM

Exactly. They are called WarBows for a reason. They were not used any where else ! There would not be a Englishman alive then tamping through the woods with sucha monster. 6feet plus. He may use a shorter long bow of 4 feet but it will not be anywhere near 100 lbs . He certainly would never hunt with it. It has limited use. And once people understood where it was strong they defeated the tactic.

In that time long range was not that far apart. That distance is potentially closed rapidly. Those bows lose effectiveness when people get to close. They are simply to large in length. In the beginning the English could hold off the entire enemy but that rather quickly started to be less and less effective.

The Mongol bows are much more multipurpose because of their size. Laminates probably would not hold up well in the weather conditions of Britan. The English could make laminates as well.

Only thing I here I doubt is the laminates not holding up in the weather. I think laminated recurves are far superior to traditional long bows, although I'm not familiar with the quality of laminates "back in the day." Anyway, the crossbow is the king of bows; and I just got me one last night. :cool:

boxerbilly

02-21-2016, 05:23 PM

At that time, crossbows were not the superior bow. The French had cross bows on the battlefield. As for todays laminates, YES I agree. Then? There must have been a problem. They can be built faster. The average longbow took years to make. The wood had to season. They had the ability to make them and did so but they tended to not be massed produced. Why? Lack of enough people with the skill ? I think it would have been mandated that skill is to be learned and fast by the Crown. So, for some reason they were disregarded.

This is another problem I have. You read, The English Longbowmen had to have special training that took years and years to become skilled with the weapon. That was not the purpose of using the longbow on the field. No one then decide, okay, this war is planned for the next hundred years or so. "We now have time to train our longbowmen 10 years each before we can deploy them. Make sure the French agree with that will you. " No, Those guys needed to be effective and fast. This is war and we are at it. Which is why training gets condensed. Only the biggest and strongest would be guys using 100lb bows. And as time went on that pool got smaller and smaller.

There is this belief they were the greatest bowmen in England. Again, that is a fallacy. For awhile , because of the tactic, they received great honor and notoriety. Which got twisted and lives on to this day. Their actual effectiveness over that war was not that great in my opinion. Basically there job was to funnel the enemy . Well like in the movie 300. Close the battlefield down to reduce the effectiveness of a larger army. Great way to take out a crowed coming out a door too. Only so many can come through at once.

But again, once France got some better tacticians and developed improved amour, which they probably had the best even at the beginning. Basically, padding reduced the longbows effectiveness. Aside from the very beginning, in my opinion the longbow was used torment more than killing.

Shorter lighter bows are better bows except for special circumstances such as England experienced.

Oh, I have entertained the idea that those really heavy bows were potentially used as foot bows on the battlefield but Ive never found anyone mentioning it in books and I never actively went looking for that as proof. For the most part, I simply don't care anymore.

Cataphract

02-22-2016, 01:22 AM

At that time, crossbows were not the superior bow. The French had cross bows on the battlefield. As for todays laminates, YES I agree. Then? There must have been a problem.
Bows have a higher cadence. English bowmen and Italian crossbowmen had a shootout at Crecy. Guess who won.

This is another problem I have. You read, The English Longbowmen had to have special training that took years and years to become skilled with the weapon.
All English boys and men were required by law to practice archery on Sundays.

Their actual effectiveness over that war was not that great in my opinion. [...] Aside from the very beginning, in my opinion the longbow was used torment more than killing.
You can't say they weren't effective. At the battle of Agincourt they practically ended the age of the armored knight on horse. However your assessment is probably still correct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt#Main_French_assault

Oh, I have entertained the idea that those really heavy bows were potentially used as foot bows on the battlefield but Ive never found anyone mentioning it in books and I never actively went looking for that as proof. For the most part, I simply don't care anymore.
English bowmen were incredibly strong. You can see it in what is left of their bones. Also they had a different method of drawing the bow. They use their whole back as in Kyudo instead of just using the Deltoid muscle.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-17309665

boxerbilly

02-22-2016, 06:06 AM

Cataphract,

I will try an reply later. Busy day ahead.

sanjuro_ronin

02-22-2016, 06:36 AM

boxerbilly

02-22-2016, 08:12 AM

Bows have a higher cadence. English bowmen and Italian crossbowmen had a shootout at Crecy. Guess who won.

All English boys and men were required by law to practice archery on Sundays.

"TRUE but is that going to create men capable of such heavy pulls?"

You can't say they weren't effective. At the battle of Agincourt they practically ended the age of the armored knight on horse. However your assessment is probably still correct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Agincourt#Main_French_assault

"I agree they were effective early on."

English bowmen were incredibly strong. You can see it in what is left of their bones. Also they had a different method of drawing the bow. They use their whole back as in Kyudo instead of just using the Deltoid muscle.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-17309665

"I disagree. Some were incredibly strong. Most were probably no stronger than the average man today. Most bowmen were not professional soldiers. Perhaps those found on the Rose were such soldiers? Now here is the thing. I said Longbows to along time to make. Well that is only half true. They could be finished very quickly. It was the season process that took years. They final stage of actual bow construction could be 15 minutes. Which leads me to believe bows could be modified to lower pulls very quickly. Again, actual weights are disputed and I do not side with those that believe these weights were standard for every archer. Just not going to happen. Yes, there are a few men alive today that can pull amazing weights. ( I use pull but a 6 foot + bow required different technique) but then as now few ! I think we are deluding ourselves based on one ship found with rather large bowmen and heavy pull bows.

And again, I have major issues with everyone saying, some of these bows took a lifetime before one could use them. Hello, WAR. We don't have a lifetime to create monster pullers. Few men then as now are capable of such weights. That is my belief and the Bows and Bones found on the Rose will not sway me .I simply disagree

Edit: some of my replies ended up in the box.

boxerbilly

02-22-2016, 08:21 AM

You seem to not be realizing that the draw weight of TODAY'S bows are lower because they do NOT have to be any higher to get the same if not better results.
The arrows are better and need less to make them penetrate and the materials used on bows is so much better.

I have used older bows from the japanese line the the western lines, bows made the old ways and they are far harder to use BUT with training one can most certainly use them as well as modern ones.

Archery, on the battlefield, was used more like "artillery" than sniping.
Slavos of arrows were rained upon the infantry and cavalry.

They used bows of different draw weights to accomplish different tasks and in regards to the heavier draw weights which they used with heavier arrows, it was for these slavos.
When hunting they used bows with less draw weight and that were smaller, not by much mind you.

Again, the difference was due to materials used and the fabrication process.

Agree. People believe for some reason that the longbow was just this 6 foot plus monster. Not all longbows were 6 feet. Different bows for different reason and smaller bows are more multipurpose.

I agree with modern is more efficient. But pull weights are essentially the same. Then one needs to potentially hold. May have not been as important for a heavypuller to hold very long.

People also fail to understand COST of war. Like the archers or the Empire can afford unlimited arrows. Todays standard issue ammo probably costs .50-1.00 a pop. How much would a bodkin arrow cost? So even if we could somehow magically produce 1000s of super bowmen, they could not afford to give them enough arrows to keep up with the so called rates of fire.

Just utter half thought rubbish.

boxerbilly

02-22-2016, 08:39 AM

boxerbilly

02-22-2016, 09:55 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-2KLuAH4GY

boxerbilly

02-22-2016, 09:56 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33LNnyqiQcs

mawali

02-22-2016, 10:38 AM

The Battle of Agincourt was more than just the uses of archery. You have command and control, manuever, ability to sense the dynamics of the battlespace and change according to that 'strategy"etc as opposed to just the use of one weapon as the contributing factor in an outcome.

sanjuro_ronin

02-22-2016, 10:43 AM

Also, if you look at the old prints. Most of the bowmen were not holding 6foot bows. Now I know that is potentially historically inaccurate. They are also very close combat. Again, I can only suggest you grab 2 guys. One capable of these monster pulls. One with a 50-60 pound bow. Lets see who can sink more arrows into armour up close in one minutes. There are certain distances for each bow where penetration is effective. Kill shots. Both tend to be closer than people understand. A 6 foot bow to close is just the wrong weapon and a lighter bow with heavy arrows will penetrate with more than enough top do the job at a higher rate of fire.

The issue is that on the battlefield, archers were NOT typically deployed as "machine guns" but, as I point out above, "artillery".
Up close for archery on the battlefield meant time to drop the bow and grab the sword.
Higher rate of fire was not THAT important on the battlefield where you had multiple archers.
Mongols did the same thing, a group would ride in, shot a salvo of arrows and ride out while the next group did the same thing after them.
Rate of fire was important for the whole unit not for the individual but even more important was coordinated fire.

boxerbilly

02-22-2016, 11:52 AM

Yes, I understand this. That heavy bow had a very specific purpose. It was not the deciding weapon for almost all the battles over 115 years or whatever that conflict happened. Early success but once the French got schooled they fixed that problem. I personally believe the Pikeman who also kept those longbow man ALIVE were the most effective overall soldier/tactic.

It certainly was not a pick your target and hit it bow. Hence, why I say that bow and tactic was not all that great. It expended huge amounts of cash . Think how many arrows missed before one worked. It got to the point the longbowman almost did nothing on the battlefields. Yet basically 2 **** battles and this myth sprung up about the superweapon/soldier. Not including Scotland prior. It was a great tactic for a short period of time. After which it was more ancillary in use if used. Yet they must be feed and all that. It had become a logistical/financial nightmare.

It was not a superior weapon/tactic for very long. Yet, the legend supermen and great bows live on. When Id put my money on a short bowmen or short long bow man being the greater archers. These guys could shoot fast and accurately. They hit what they pointed at **** near always. Far more efficient and cost effective.

Longbow vs shortbow -short bow wins out in my opinion.

Now I am all for being wrong. I would rather have the truth. Would it be possible to have hundreds if not thousands of men capable of using such a heavy , draw?

Professional soldiers, Id say okay you will get some like on the MaryRose. Most bowmen were common folk.

But those 2 vids do offer the possibility then that provided one has the technique he could be brought up to those weights in well under a lifetime. As it is doubtful either men spent from 6 on using heavy bows gradually increasing over a 20 year period or whatever. Which a profession soldier may be able to do. Would a few months of condensed training bring a average guy who could handle say 50/60lbs into the 100+. Could we do it today? Lets assume England was not full of genetic freaks but maybe they were?

Cataphract

02-22-2016, 01:38 PM

The arrows weight does not really matter. If you shoot for distance lighter arrows will travel faster and thus ****her before they hit the ground. Momentum is what matters for fighting. That one is determined by the energy that you put into the bow alone. A small composite bow can store the same amount of energy as a big wooden bow, btw.

The only thing modern materials can do to improve the efficiency of a bow is to reduce friction by reducing moving parts, but ancient composite bows were already highly optimized. I guess the main difference is price and durability.

boxerbilly

02-22-2016, 02:11 PM

The light arrows will slow to much and have no real force behind them at distance. I am weary they would have enough weight to penetrate up close either. Against plate.

Anyway, the debate goes round and round. Some believe some do not.

I still do not believe we could train thousand men to all pull the same weight. Those MaryRose Pros were BIG MEN. Over 6 feet tall. The average height back then was 5'6- 5-8. Could there have been thousands of 6 feet tall people back then? But then again, I always believed that lifetime to be able to use was crap too. Who thought that up? First time doing battle and your disregard all previous ideas to train men as fast as possible? Which leads me to have to believe, there had to be great variance in actual longbow weights.

Look how hard it must have been to get people to even use their bows. They had to make a law to practice every Sunday. Why? Because for regular people, their life did not revolve around using a bow. They worked fields. Or built whatever. That was life. Not living like Robin Hood and his merry band of crooks depending on ones point of view. I have problems believing one day a week of half hearted play is going to create super strong archers. Especially when we compare it to todays hunters. Guys that probably practice as much as possible. Yet almost none use super bows to hunt with. Im sure they would love to have 100lb killers out there but they cant use them overall.

Heck, you could not even hunt for a time. What's the point in using the **** thing then? Burn it, Im cold ! Edit- Sorry I had to add: Son, get the warbow out, we need to getsome quail, LOL. Grab the heavy arrows, I want to gut this thing mid air so we have more time practice.

Legend just does not add up when you consider all the other facts of life and believed statistics.

Lucas

02-24-2016, 08:42 AM

Exhumed bodies of former English Longbow men showed distinct irregularities in each individuals skeletal structure due to the conditioning the training created. Only men who grew up through developmental stages while training the traditional Longview could effectively use them to their full potential. This is why the English pulled from every village when the French were smashing them repeatedly, then with this new fource the English were able to cut down heavy cavalry and knights (the French power houses on the field) by punching though full plate armor . The English tried to crate ranks of longbow men from enlisted but realized only those men trained since adolescence could effectively shoot the boss with accuracy full power and for hours at a time.

Heavy bows are a specialized skill you don't generally pick up as an adult, but rather grow into.

Lucas

02-24-2016, 08:49 AM

Sorry all my typos I'm on a phone and I suck at texting

bawang

02-24-2016, 09:26 AM

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 09:39 AM

in ancient battlefields the longest range archers win. they will always be out of range of enemy archer. archers are light skirmishers and archers first engage other archers. they will also use focus fire, where multiple units of archers shoot at one unit.

small cavalry groups can also enter the gaps between formations with a thin column called centipede or dragon formation and snipe the general. this is how japanese lost many of their samurai officers when ming army brought their elite cavalry units from liaodong

major problems faced by enemies of mongols were their arrows could not bring them down. mongol cavalry were reported to fight normally while being covered in 50+ arrows. the same problem was problem was faced by jin archer conscripts who could not penetrate the 4 inch thick tower shields of general yue feis army, and likewise chinese archers who could not penetrate double lamenar armor of jin iron tower cataphract and hammer cavalry

Bawang, please tell us more about Mongol battlefield tactics.

bawang

02-24-2016, 09:50 AM

Exactly. They are called WarBows for a reason. They were not used any where else ! There would not be a Englishman alive then tamping through the woods with sucha monster. 6feet plus.

thats why only someone using a warbow skillfully deserves to be on tv. this is the whole point of why that norwegian guy is a pathetic failure. he is like one of those nerds on youtube always talking about european sword fighting pretending to be expert, because european martial arts is dead and there is no one to put them in their place.

Bawang, please tell us more about Mongol battlefield tactics.

i only know about chinese tactics

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 11:02 AM

I disagree concerning Lars. He started late and is sort of old. I have no doubts we had fast, lighter bowmen on the battlefield. Horse Archers. When the horse goes down, now they are foot archers already closed.

European Martial arts are not dead, they evolved like probably every country more or less. US Marines were still using swords in the late 1800s. European offshoots. Other countries the same. I guess you have issue with people trying to replicate how they believe a weapon was used. Fairly similar from country to country Id wager. So, how hard could it be to figure out usage if there is some country with a group of guys still training in some archaic weapon technique ? Clever people draw from all sources available to find answers.

I think to discount Lar's ideas is wrong. In my opinion, The English heavypull longbow was not the ultimate battlefield weapon. It was an intrical part and the decisive weapon a couple of battles. I would rather have faster mobile bowman and let the pikeman worry about the Knights. Which I am sure later was a tactic used.

bawang

02-24-2016, 11:12 AM

I guess
if
I think
I would
can u go to a krate or samurai fetish forum for that kind of sh1t, for circlejerks where you refute historical fact with opinions

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 11:49 AM

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 12:03 PM

It was also HISTORICAL FACT that is was NOT the BEST weapon on the battlefield. I guess you failed to read where I mentioned it was only really great in a couple of battles. It was rather quickly defeated as a battlefield tactic. At which point it was ancillary in use. Oh the English still spent a TON to have large hordes of useless bowmen showup. They chose to stick with a weapon of early success even though that success continued to dwindle. In the end, WRONG CHOICE !

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 12:12 PM

Sorry all my typos I'm on a phone and I suck at texting

Hi Lucas.

Archers in general have that skeleton issue. Even Olympic archers that use less than 50lb bows. It could be consider similar to baseball players also having skeleton changes from throwing a ball. It does not show up in Soccer ( football for the offended) players. The ball is light. Weight is not the real issue of the malady. Doing a motion over and over and I assume one sided is the cause.

Cataphract

02-24-2016, 12:17 PM

major problems faced by enemies of mongols were their arrows could not bring them down. mongol cavalry were reported to fight normally while being covered in 50+ arrows. the same problem was problem was faced by jin archer conscripts who could not penetrate the 4 inch thick tower shields of general yue feis army, and likewise chinese archers who could not penetrate double lamenar armor of jin iron tower cataphract and hammer cavalry. this was what pushed for the development of firearms

Cloth and especially silk is surprisingly good at deflecting or at least stopping arrows. Samurai messengers dragged "parachutes" made of silk. Mongols wore silk shirts. Arrows would often penetrate their flesh but could be pulled out by the surrounding cloth without doing much damage. Crusading knights wore long overcloaks. They are reported to have looked like needle cushions after battles.

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 12:42 PM

Fact is, until the MaryRose I do not believe their was a single surviving LongBow from that time period. And prior to that I am unsure anyone believed top weight of longbow went about 110lbs. Most agreed within the 70-90lb range. They possibly base these weights off of bows that survived from latter periods.

So, now , sure why not, we found a Ship with some rather large men, ( again well above average standards for men of that time frame) who happened to be holding a bit more than 100 bows. At larger weights. 100+ and up. All of a sudden we toss common sense out the window and credit people whos life did not revolve around a bow , with abilities of massive pulls and the deadliest archers ever. Over glorification in my opinion. Yet, these same people seem to have not read they considered those men on that ship the very TOP of the heap for HeavyBowmen. That gets chucked and now everysingle English farmer that touched a longbow can pull 165 100s of times during battle. Also failing to understand war cost and that FACT not enough arrows were ever issuedan archer to achieve that volume PERIOD ! Nope, numbnuts run with same base numbers and recreate things that never happened.

Now, long forgot is the guy on the battlefields with his tiny little bow of 50 or a smaller 70 because ALL LONGBOWS NOW had to be over 100+ pounds.

And don't use logic to try and debate often inaccurate and incorrect HISTORICAL FACT.

How about this, Who started WW2 and Who was the most evil people during that time period? I know the poster boy. WE ALL DO ! Now, remove your emotions, pride and things sold you prior. THINK !!!

sanjuro_ronin

02-24-2016, 12:56 PM

So yesterday when I took my eldest to archery class ( Sofia loves archery since she saw Hunger games), I asked the guy there if they have any serious bows, with heavy draw weights and he gave me a 75 and 100lb bow.
So I did what any red-blooded Portuguese- Canadian MA with an attitude would do, spend half n hour shooting like an englishman !!
LOL !

Observations:
Not as hard as I thought and it got easier as time went by as I a got some pointers about drawing big bows ( push and pull, not just pull for example).
Accuracy was not as good simply because, as I was told, this is not the type of bow you draw and HOLD while aiming. The analogy of a shotgun VS a rifle is good:
You AIM a rifle but you POINT a shotgun.
Now, I am a strong boy as most of you know but truth be told, technique was more important.

In short, drawing a 100lbs bow is NOT a big deal and you can draw and shoot for 30 min with no problem, though not at the rate as you would with a lighter draw weight of course.

Lucas

02-24-2016, 01:16 PM

Hi Lucas.

Archers in general have that skeleton issue. Even Olympic archers that use less than 50lb bows. It could be consider similar to baseball players also having skeleton changes from throwing a ball. It does not show up in Soccer ( football for the offended) players. The ball is light. Weight is not the real issue of the malady. Doing a motion over and over and I assume one sided is the cause.

True, but not to the same degree by any means. It would be akin to comparing Mike tysons fist to pan qing fu's iron fist deformity. An English longbow of this calibre man was a one sided archer. It's surmised, based off skeletal remains, that the average longbow man trained and grown in the traditional manner would likely have been able to lift a 200lb weight with their draw arm easily above their head, one handed. The deformity is extreme in these cases. There are records of those arrows punching through oak trees. Their bows were crafted on an individual basis by the village bowyer

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 01:19 PM

Empirical.

This is FACT. I appreciate you doing you experiment. So, we have one. By his own admission, he is rather strong. Bawang, I don't believe you are a very large man. Got a 100 pound bow and a half hour?

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 01:21 PM

True, but not to the same degree by any means. It would be akin to comparing Mike tysons fist to pan qing fu's iron fist deformity. An English longbow of this calibre man was a one sided archer. It's surmised, based off skeletal remains, that the average longbow man trained and grown in the traditional manner would likely have been able to lift a 200lb weight with their draw arm easily above their head, one handed. The deformity is extreme in these cases. There are records of those arrows punching through oak trees. Their bows were crafted on an individual basis by the village bowyer

I do not believe men were using those larger pulls overall. I believe in the 70-90 pound range. That becomes much more likely a guy not to much shorter than myself can lob arrows. But Im not hunting with those weights.

Lucas

02-24-2016, 01:29 PM

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 01:32 PM

True, but not to the same degree by any means. It would be akin to comparing Mike tysons fist to pan qing fu's iron fist deformity. An English longbow of this calibre man was a one sided archer. It's surmised, based off skeletal remains, that the average longbow man trained and grown in the traditional manner would likely have been able to lift a 200lb weight with their draw arm easily above their head, one handed. The deformity is extreme in these cases. There are records of those arrows punching through oak trees. Their bows were crafted on an individual basis by the village bowyer

Based off which Skeletal remains from where ?

And again, There was a law in acted to even get these men to use their bows. WHY ? They would rather do other things? It was not France who started that War.

Lucas

02-24-2016, 01:35 PM

See previous post, then follow all.the sources and do your own research cornwell is a n author but is also an English historian. Research his sources

Lucas

02-24-2016, 01:37 PM

I don't care about the war or any of this really I'm talking strictly the village arches and their bows. I've read his sources. Go do it yourself.

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 01:52 PM

I tried to add this article off but can't but you can Google it. Also look into Bernard cornwells research sources. I tend to be in alignment with his data records that he shares for his historical fiction novel about the English longbow

THE ARCHER’S TALE: AN EXAMINATION OF ENGLISH ARCHERS
DURING THE HUNDRED YEARS WAR AND THEIR

IMPACT ON WARFARE AND SOCIETY

A thesis presented to the Faculty of the U.S. Army
Command and General Staff College in partial
fulfillment of the requirements for the
degree
MASTER OF MILITARY ART AND SCIENCE
Military History
by
STEPHEN S. TALIAFERRO, MAJOR, U.S. ARMY
B.A., University of Arkansas, Fayetteville, Arkansas, 2003

Thanks , I did not see this post. Found the Mil Doc-

In the nineteenth and twentieth century many historians posited the theory of the
“short bow” to explain the seemingly sudden reliance the English placed on archers in the fourteenth century.4 According to the theory, the longbow was a relatively new
technological development originating in Wales. The longbow was incorporated into
English formations during the reign of Edward I (1272 to 1307) in the late thirteenth
century after his extensive campaigns in Wales. The bows used in western medieval
warfare before this time were short bows drawn only to the chest as opposed to the
4 For more on the original theory of the rise of the longbow see Charles Oman, The Art of War in the Middle Ages (Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1986), 116122; John Edward Morris, The Welsh Wars of Edward I (Oxford: Clarenden Press, 1901), 100-103.
8
longbow which is drawn to the ear. These short bows were thought to be largely ineffective against even lightly armored men.5

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 02:06 PM

Inside that doc one will also find Horse Archers were the larger Bowman unit. Now, were they pulling 100 pound bows? Horse Archers can quickly become foot archers. Horses are primary targets then. What do Horsemen do ? How can they apply a smaller lighter bow effectively? Would they be using 100+ bows up close?

But it comes back to the heavy longbow. The KING on the field and it was not. And I still do not believe the whole of those guys were using 100+ bows just because some got found on the Rose.

Also, Lars proved his little toy 35 can penetrate chain. Most guys wore, chain.

As to Cormwells book, Ill see if I can find it online otherwise it is doubtful I will bother going to a library to obtain it. So were the previous historians correct or the later rethink ?

But now one see's. This historian believes this. Another that. It was likely unable to penetrate even the lightest of armour yet. Lars proved I can do it rather easily. Not all Longbows are MANBOWS, LOL. I side with the shortbows were on the battlefield. I believe much easier to train guys to be effective with lighterbows than Heavy.

I will of course have to read this DOC fully when I have more time.

Thank you for the information.

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 02:13 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOM4IQjQtM4

Cataphract

02-24-2016, 02:18 PM

Accuracy was not as good simply because, as I was told, this is not the type of bow you draw and HOLD while aiming. The analogy of a shotgun VS a rifle is good:
You AIM a rifle but you POINT a shotgun.
In Kyudo you learn how to aim with your toes. Imagine a line through the tips of your toes and the target. Then draw the bow. Accuracy comes from repeating these movements.

Stone age bows such as Ötzi's and the Holmegaard bow were long bows over 1.80m btw.

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 04:37 PM

I read further. So, odds are the very best archers were outlaws. For all intent purpose illegal hunters like Robin Hood. Now, what weights do most hunters hunt with? What range do most hunters drop their prey at ? About 50lbs and 20 yards. I suspect the same then.

So, would you take men that can actually use their weapon effectively and not use them in positions that would benefit their attributes and tactics of elusiveness? As I stated long ago. Shooting up in the air at a distance is shooting? Or is aimed archery shooting? Which requires the greater skill? Standing back and being strong lobbing arrows or getting in close to take your shots and doing your best to escape after you dropped your targets and coming back around next opportunity? Which over all would be more effective? At Agincourt do to the conditions of the field. Hanging back worked great.

Funny I read others that said the shortbowman was the lowest soldier on the field. I doubted then and now we read those standback foot archers were basically that, yet, most believe in the legend because they read longbow oh, Those things are 50thousand pounds of pull and those guys were serious. When more than likely these guys used more 20-40 pounds over what they could be capable of using for hunting but aside from amount of cash they had they probably were not very good archers. But we can get them to shoot slightly heavier bows and land arrows along that line. The better archers got much closer. These were hunter/killers. SKILLED Outlaws. With differing levels of skill amound the professional soldiers who were archers and farmers who likely became the heavy longbow men with bows not as heavy as the pros on the Rose. Those guys probably show up and taught these Farmers tactics and technique.

Anyway, unlike Bawang I believe the best archers used much lighter weights at closer range. Things got twisted and weights got thrown around and everyone wants to believe the strongest.

Longbow does not always mean- 150lbs. It is a type of bow with heights and weights that VARIED! But people see 6ft+ and 110+ inside their minds eye. All of England bowmen common and pro somehow were the strongest archers ever. Simply a fallacy. And Id take a weaker skilled I can hit my target archer over a strong I can get it close to the target archer. Almost always he is the more needed archer.

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 05:19 PM

Nice long shot. I believe he uses a 80lb bow. Now compound so he gets mechanical assistance , holding is easier and sights. Still and amazing shot most guys should never attempt. Most guys better stay inside that 20 yards when hunting. But, a guy with great eyes and bow skill can make a much lighter bow absolutely lethal and become a terror. Again, look at Indian history. They eventually were defeated too.
But I have no question even a 50lb bow can go through almost anything then at the right distance and arrow weight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ri6U74eIvE

bawang

02-24-2016, 05:21 PM

Oh we are going to use Historical Facts , because they are always correct and truthful to debate this. Okay. Then, the longbow was simply an impossible weapon to bring into combat for the simple matter that it took a lifetime to be able to use. That's your HISTORICAL FACT !

Go ahead and circle jerk that around your crew, dude !

thats why the norweigian nerd doesnt deserve to be on tv. he hasnt had lifetime of practice to become master archer. its liek u going on tv documentary about karate.

Anyway, unlike Bawang I believe the best archers used much lighter weights at closer range.

first you base entire opinion because lars shot chain mail (which is not designed to protect against stabbing) at point blank with a modern carbon arrow. second you seem to have no idea how to draw bows so u think trying to draw like jennifer lawrence form hunger games on a 90 lb war bow is impossible, which it is

you enjoy mentally jerking to a romantic image of a robin hood archer and you have severe reaction to differeing view especially when it refute your own view. this is because you think archery is a dead art so it is free for all for any sort of fantasizing navel gazing.

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 05:44 PM

thats why the norweigian nerd doesnt deserve to be on tv. he hasnt had lifetime of practice to become master archer. he literally trick shoot frisbee 3 inch from his face with 30 lb baby toy children bow. he shot thru chainmain because chainmail protect only against slashing attacks not stabbing and he prolly using modern high tech carbon arrows.

your problem trying to talk about archery is you have no idea how to draw a bow. you know literally nothing about archery. you think english longbow is impossible because you think of jennifer lawrence from hunger game.

once again you just jerking to ur own opinion. go to fantasy rpg forums for that sh1t

Your just jealous.

bawang

02-24-2016, 05:51 PM

Your just jealous.

nah i dont enjoy going to andropause and being balding fat hillybilly, posting on a kung fu forum even though not training kung fu

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 05:52 PM

And your right. The odds that a archer would ever confront anyone then, wearing chain, is just a ridiculace notion. And even if he did, that would be unfair advantage because everyone knows chain can only stop cuts. Dude, I'm sorry.

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 05:55 PM

nah i dont enjoy going to andropause and being balding fat hillybilly, posting on a kung fu forum even though not training kung fu

LOL.

Bawang is hurt.

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 05:58 PM

Poor Bawang, I am ruining his special posts. You not kung fu,hmm, You not Chinese, Hmm. You fat old man, hmm. I no like you. You part white or was it 1/10 th Indian blood. So you say. Maybe you not White. I just want to make funof people because I cant hold myself stead and you ruin that. You go made my friend leave, bad man you bad man,

LMFAO.

CHUMP!

bawang

02-24-2016, 06:15 PM

i ruined ur archery fantasy circle jerk with historical facts

TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 06:22 PM

I apologize. I had to slam some food. Us McFattyFats like to eat.

Actually you ruined nothing. But you can keep trying little buddy.

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 06:24 PM

**** it. I lost another hair.

B.Tunks

02-24-2016, 09:05 PM

boxerbilly

02-24-2016, 09:53 PM

Its not a malady. Its structural adaptation to mechanical usage. Its one way we can determine that these people did spend most of their lives doing exactly what you say they couldn't/wouldn't have.

Hi. Okay, a structural adaption then ! Yes, I said that adaption happens even in guys that use lighter bows. Okay, aside from the Mary Rose can you list the other bones of archers found please ?

B.Tunks

02-25-2016, 02:25 AM

There's plenty but I haven't got time to dig up for you. Here's an article I found in about 2 mins of searching though (including link to original journal publication):

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2015/09/30/brawny-bones-reveal-10th-century-hungarian-warriors-were-accomplished-archers/#1334871e38c0

which not only addresses this exact kind of physiological adaptation, but also states -

"This pattern of skeletal changes is even found in children from the cemetery, leading the authors to conclude that “some kind of [archery] training began during childhood.”

This type of lifelong training is well documented throughout human history and still occurs in some societies today.

boxerbilly

02-25-2016, 05:33 AM

Thanks.

I was hoping for English bowmen but I do appreciate that link. That will be found in todays archers too, even those that use lighter bows.

boxerbilly

02-25-2016, 05:46 AM

Again, my belief and I am not alone.

http://www.societyofarcher-antiquaries.org/

Most that belong to this used to believe those bows draws averaged 80-90 lbs. I have read others estimate 70-90. I have read as high as 110.

boxerbilly

02-25-2016, 06:12 AM

Im sorry I keep being called away.

My main point is I do not believe most archers were using bows over 100lbs. I am not swayed by the bows they found on the Rose. Now as I did years ago I looked because I wanted to believe.

So, now if one is incline you can look in this-
THE ARCHER’S TALE: AN EXAMINATION OF ENGLISH ARCHERS
DURING THE HUNDRED YEARS WAR AND THEIR.

You will find most bowmen where horse archers. Meaning they will get closer. If they are on Horseback it is highly doubtful they are using 6 feet bows like those on the Mary Rose. But most will dismount and be a lot closer. Again, in my opinion a poor choice for getting closer. Bow is to large. Little 5'8 guys getting into range of Knights and pikemen with 6' + 100+lb bows.

boxerbilly

02-25-2016, 07:45 AM

Okay, I just found this.

Pretty much how I believe. Not discussion of draw weights but I only skimmed. More of the effectiveness of the bow. I did say prior I sort of lump those heavier draw long bows in the sort of suck category. Overblown nonsense to those that do not have even cursory understanding of those the battles during that time frame. Or choose to disregard common sense look and see advice. Find it in use in rations similar to what is being claimed. The general reply is for some unknown reason that fails any actual standards of proof. All men way back then were just ungodly strong and we modern are incapable of even a tenth of legend. Which if so, will be a crushing blow to Bawang because using that logic we can no longer use those bows. No one can. We have become simply to weak. Anyone that believes that is being careless.

I posted a video of a guy making a long shot. He hit his target first go. OUTSTANDING. Then I believe every other arrow fired missed. A common occurence using that kind of shooting at target that may be to far to see using arrows not designed for straight flight. But okay, those that like can keep believe. Ive said a couple of times at least this gets argued back and forth and probably has for centuries.

Now this is one mans opinion. As is generally the case. People who use rational and understand and do there best to not go myopic. They understand the longer range bows were not the only weapon of the field. They understand the bow was not the deciding weapon in most of the battles. They keep a wider focus and look into as many aspect of that time frame and those battles as possible before making. They don't believe every recent study that somehow disproves all other studied before hand. They don't dismiss new information but they are discerning.
But that's my opinion and others will not and do not have to agree with me.

I try keep focus on the main objective. The end goal. The synergy of it all. The longbow sorry, that **** long range bow that now gets all the freaking credit, was not the major player aside form a few battles. Bow length and weights would be according to the user. Most men in England at that time were not the size of the archers discovered on the Mary Rose. Those men and people of similar size would be the only ones in general , guys of similar build capable of using those heavy pull bows on a regular basis. Other will simply have to use lighter bows. Not all men are created equal in strength regardless the training. It simply does not happen. Yet all the men of England needed to practice bow as was law. Every Sunday or whatever. And for some unknown reason we throw out everything we know prior or things we can prove today and believe LEGEND?

militaryrevolution.s3.amazonaws.com/Primary%20sources/Longbow.pdf

boxerbilly

02-25-2016, 07:46 AM

By the way, I believe most bow kills came from lighter bows used close.

Cataphract

02-25-2016, 11:36 AM

It's fascinating to see how fast a thread about archery can degenerate into names calling.

But since there was an appeal to common sense: The total war or levée en masse is a modern invention. There was not "everyone" on the battlefield in the middle ages . If some nobleman drafted all his peasants, who would farm his crops and pay his expenses? Every village would be obliged to send one or two able-bodied men. Secondly, the English archers are remembered for a reason. Saracen and Turkish archers battered knights in shining armor, the English ended them. They were the evolutionary answer to the war technology of their time. After them Swiss pike men ruled the battlefield. But English archers were the solution to a specific problem at one point in time. All actual clues we have confirm that Ea were simply very good at their job.

boxerbilly

02-25-2016, 01:49 PM

Sorry about my part.

I agree with the English archery part. I do not agree with he Heavy Longbow part. That Honour belongs to shorter weaker long bows and shortbows. Those were your real archers. By the way, modern target archery is not combat archery. Nope, Lars is closer to the truth than many imagine.

boxerbilly

02-25-2016, 02:20 PM

By the way, do you know why Lars would not repeatedly draw his bow to full length? It is not because he is simply to weak or just trick shooting. It is because those short bows break unless backed. Plains indian backed their shortbows so they could get fuller draw. Did the English? Something I never looked into myself. Like I said, I don't really care to much about ancient history anymore. But it is funny to read all the in general current beliefs.

Now all that Lars is really doing is showing possibility and expanding on the precieved limitation of something so toy like. Because if you ain't knocking down a castle wall with your bow , well, you have a toy. Just don't tell Custards offspring that ! Same bows they had in England really. It is not unique to America. In fact, even China had it. Those things sure do fit a horsemen real good though. But I bet a 4 foot short-long would work there to and up the pull poundage some so even half pulls will have enough punch to go into most everyone. Let the Pikemen take care of the Knights !

boxerbilly

02-25-2016, 06:26 PM

I hope people clicked that pdf link. It was not the pdf I wanted you to see so much it was either name. I suspect some did and some did not. No worries.

Anyway I wanted you to find this, you know, do your own work , as was suggested me. Again I spent far to much time on this crap years ago and far to much of late. I both agree and disagree with both men. In the end it does not really matter, LOL. We waste an incredible amount of time of trivial nonsense. I love history. I also love finding flaws in History. I would rather know the truth. Often the best we have is a educated guess based on who sways you. Most people do not ever think and question. I suggest do not debate. You will lose. But for me it is not so much debate again, what was the truth. That my goal. Most people just want to win. Im sure some here where in a debate club and the objective is to win. Remove that and make the objective the truth.

Anyway, enjoy Im done. Pointless. Here is an interesting FACT . No of us were there ! LMFAO. Another. This in no way shape or form has any bearing on anything we will ever do in life. Our wives think we are freaking insane nuts for a reason. And you all thought I only side with us guys, LOL.

It was fun, it was semi educational. Mostly to much of a waste of time but I do hope those still interested look at everything ! Don't just believe someone. here everyone and make up your own **** mind. People are freaking parrots.

These are short clips so watch here and there. All this stuff is so old news to me. Been there done that and really have no further interest. By the way, NO ONE HER HAS EVER BEEN A WAR ARCHER regardless what your envision yourself to be. No one here is a tactical genius that I and probably we know of but maybe one day you will be ? I know there are a few here that believe they are tactical superior trying to one up another . Make them feel superior. Best at something. I thought that stuff died all over. Because mostly the guys that play that still sucked ass back then. Waited for the major player to bail out.

VIDS -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E--DR8ZllVo

boxerbilly

02-26-2016, 12:44 PM

This is only for those that have real interest in finding out truth. I mentioned cost of war. As stated previously everything ( or as much as possible needs to be considered. )

And look see- 2 types of archers. 2 different pays. If we go by numbers alone , we pay according to effectiveness. Not always true but generally so.

Horse Archers do not use 6 feet bows. Nor draws of 100lbs.

http://www.usna.edu/Users/history/abels/hh381/Costs%20of%20war%201200_1400.htm

There are also 3-4 good books of this stuff. Most will never bother to read them and I don't blame you. But 1 or 2 may hold real interest.

mickey

03-05-2016, 08:49 AM

Greetings,

The first of two parts, the first is about Tong Zhongyi and the second part is about his daughter, Ku Ku:

http://www.manchuarchery.org/last-manchu-archer-part-1

mickey

bawang

03-18-2016, 10:20 PM

It's fascinating to see how fast a thread about archery can degenerate into names calling.

if you repeatedly refute facts and reply with repetitive opinion prepare to get sh1t on.

if you openly admit in a kung fu forum that you dont train kung fu and talk like an expert on kung fu prepare to get sh1t on.

if you have no real life experience with a subject and insist on amazon.com books and youtube videos prepapre for chocolate rain

lars is a joke in the archery community, hes a trick shooter making bizzare autism claims, everything has been debunked and refuted by archery experts, end of story

Cataphract

03-21-2016, 12:26 PM

I don't intend any of the above, but thanks for sorting out the bawang rules of internet communication.

I don't think Mr. Andersen is so easy to dismiss. He's a trick shooter, and he caused more excitement than all "archery experts" combined. People love archery, but are dissatisfied with the mainstream. He struck a nerve. Horseback archers are also trick shooters. And very traditional.

bawang

03-23-2016, 08:17 PM

He struck a nerve. Horseback archers are also trick shooters. And very traditional.
yes because mongol archers take video cameras to the battlefield and do over 14 takes for trick shooting montage while using wrong bow grip while using a 35 lb baby bow

lol @ struck a nerve. i dont care about nerd rejects like lars or lindy beige desecrating western martial arts, im not white, it doesnt affect me its not my culture. i just enjoy insulting midwest krotty hilly billy

Lucas

03-27-2016, 09:32 AM

…' [I]n the war against the Welsh, one of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron*cuirasses, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal. -Gerald of Wales, 1191'
Human Bones in Archaeology by Ann Stirland

boxerbilly

11-22-2016, 02:37 PM

It takes money. Lots of money.

boxerbilly

11-22-2016, 11:10 PM

The cost of this war. Like all war. Things are done to make "sides" hate one another. One could potentially win playing clean but you will likely lose your audience. Entertainment. Some audiences want hate. Some humour. Others love. Others direction. What's the main EMOTION for this audience.

Cost-

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2016/09/21/donald-trump-finally-ramped-up-his-campaign-spending-so-where-did-the-money-go/

not including the other runners.

boxerbilly

11-22-2016, 11:34 PM

Allies have bankrupted allies through loans to wage war. Now you are owned. And with no further revenue to continue to wage war you are effectively defeated.

As warned via TV low tech ( LOW COST ) can still be effective. These are small battles. They can never win a war. They are martyr. But innocent life is lost. This is why we must screen as completely as possible. Why there must be clear lines not to cross. Why Americans should be aware of physical body language of sacred, upset, nervous PROFILES ! And report them. Yes, if dudes are buy machetes and rope and chemicals it is none of your business ? Don't be that person.

Like spiderman found out. Stepping aside got uncle Ben DEAD.

GeneChing

06-13-2017, 08:04 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ICIdA-zpEA

GeneChing

07-03-2017, 03:43 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsgK8tuJquc

I was on the Mongolian episode last Thursday and will be on the Aztec episode this Thursday.

Man at Arms: Art of War (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?70140-Man-at-Arms-Art-of-War-New-Original-Series-from-EL-REY-Network) meets Archery. (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?66419-Archery)

GeneChing

08-08-2017, 08:47 AM

Impressive. I'm not clear if this was a paralympic division of the USA Archery Outdoor National Championships or in regular competition. Either way, it's inspirational badassery.

Man born without arms takes home gold at archery championship in Westfield (http://cbs4indy.com/2017/08/07/man-born-without-arms-takes-home-gold-at-archery-championship-in-westfield/)
POSTED 9:48 PM, AUGUST 7, 2017, BY CBS4 WEB

https://tribwttv.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/capture5.jpeg?quality=85&strip=all&w=400&h=225&crop=1

WESTFIELD, Ind. – A man born with no arms defied the odds and took home first place at a national archery competition in Westfield over the weekend.

Using his feet, Matt Stutzman earned gold in the target championship and got silver in the open compound final at the USA Archery Outdoor National Championships.

Stutzman says this weekend’s results will put him in a great position to earn a spot on the US Archery World Cup Team.

The Paralympian won the silver medal in the 2012 games in London, but this is the first year he is competing in the able-bodied division.

Stutzman says his new tagline has become “What’s your excuse?”

“If a guy without arms can get a bow and sit down and compete with the best in the world at a sport with them using their arms, what’s your excuse?” asked Stutzman. “Why aren’t you doing what you want to do? Get off the couch and get it done.”

GeneChing

03-14-2019, 08:01 AM

phone wins?

Australian man blocks arrow with mobile phone (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-47563634)
14 March 2019

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/BAE1/production/_106014874_53685627_963373163872113_77906562922043 14624_n.jpg
NSW POLICE
An Australian man's phone was pierced by an arrow

Mobile phones truly can be life savers - especially, it seems, when an arrow is hurtling towards you.

That was the case for a 43-year-old man in Australia who came under attack by another man, according to police.

The incident began when the attacker, carrying a bow and arrow, confronted the man outside his house, police said.

The arrow was allegedly fired after the resident raised his phone to photograph the confrontation - only for the device to become an unlikely shield.

Police said the arrow pierced the victim's phone, knocking it back into his face. He suffered a small cut but was otherwise unhurt.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/45B1/production/_106014871_54236852_963373167205446_62310521382948 0448_n.jpg
NSW POLICE
The alleged attacker has been charged by police

The armed man, 39, was later arrested at the scene.

Police said the incident happened in the New South Wales town of Nimbin, about 180km (110 miles) south of Brisbane, on Wednesday.

The pair were known to each other, police said. They did not give further details.

The 39-year-old man was charged with assault and property damage offences, and will face a court next month.

GeneChing

08-17-2020, 08:00 PM

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/08/17/sports/12drivers-archery1-print/merlin_175589244_11b94a53-9c69-40c4-a141-d94045875b66-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp
Credit...Raúl Vilchis for The New York Times
These Uber Drivers Are Stressed. Archery Soothes Them (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/16/sports/bhutan-archery-uber-drivers.html).
Many Bhutanese immigrants who drive for ride-sharing services opted to live off their savings during coronavirus-related lockdowns in New York City. As they begin to return to work, their country’s national pastime has been a comfort.
Photographs and Text by Raúl Vilchis
Published Aug. 16, 2020
Updated Aug. 17, 2020, 11:24 a.m. ET

Tshelthrim Dorji, a 36-year-old from Bhutan, had been used to waking up every day at 5 a.m. to start his 12-hour-shift as an Uber driver in New York City. He stopped going out during the prolonged pandemic-related lockdown, and as he slowly returned to work as the city reopened this summer he found his already taxing job increasingly stressful.

So to unwind on Saturdays he still wakes at dawn, but drives instead to another destination: a serene expanse of woods at the end of a dirt road in Shamong, N.J., around two hours from his home in Queens. There, he and a group of around two dozen Bhutanese immigrants — most of whom are also Uber and Lyft drivers — gather for a long day of archery, their small country’s national pastime.

Before the coronavirus swept through their New York neighborhoods, the group would gather here only monthly for a traditional match, because the field was so far away and their workdays were so long. But in July, as state officials began to allow more outdoor activities, the group decided to resume its ceremonial games every weekend.

Archery provided a way to exercise, socialize at a distance and offer prayers for the city’s speedy comeback. Most of the players had preferred to live off savings in recent months rather than continue driving — and risk infecting other members of the region’s small Bhutanese community. There were around 24,000 Bhutanese living in the United States in 2015, according to the Pew Research Center, with most in Ohio and a significant population in Rochester, N.Y.

The archers said they knew of about a dozen people in the smaller New York City Bhutanese community who had contracted Covid-19, the disease caused by the virus. All eventually recovered, they said, with the help of a committee of volunteers that coordinates donations of food and money for the sick. The Bhutanese have even rented a communal apartment to offer to people in need a space to quarantine, one of the archers said.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/08/17/sports/12drivers-archer3-print/merlin_175589184_b5fb3c1a-b30c-417f-8e1f-f98a85cff2c6-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp.
The group splits into teams of 12 then says mantras to Buddha before the game begins.Credit...Raúl Vilchis for The New York Times

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/08/12/sports/12drivers-archery04/merlin_175589193_1fec705f-3b4a-4011-afac-74cde3c3122d-superJumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp.
Pema Rinzin examining his arrows.Credit...Raúl Vilchis for The New York Times

“Especially in these pandemic times, everybody was alone at home,” Dorji said. “That’s why we created these tournaments to see each other again, to recover.”

When the group arrives on the land rented from a local Buddhist temple — the same site where they have been practicing for the past two years — they brew tea and eat rice for breakfast while getting dressed in gho, traditional robes that are burgundy tweed or gray. They organize themselves in two teams of 12, sometimes representing the East and West of Bhutan. Their archery group, which was founded in 2006, is called Shaa Wang Pasum, for the people who live in three districts in Bhutan that helped unify the country.

Before each match, those taking part say mantras to Buddha and pour an offering on the ground: a bottle of beer. At one end of the long field, they set up one wooden target with a bull’s-eye painted in a rainbow of colors and framed by red, yellow, white, green and blue ribbons. Another is placed 145 meters, or about 475 feet, away, on the other side of the field. Six players from each team hide behind a blind next to the targets. Then each archer raises a professional-grade, compound target bow and shoots two arrows. They walk to the other target to collect their arrows and then shoot again in the other direction to complete one round. At the end of their 12-hour day of play, they will have walked about 11 miles.

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“You must concentrate entirely on your breathing, as if you had nothing else to do,” Tshelthrim Dorji said. “Then you brace yourself for failure.”Credit...Raúl Vilchis for The New York Times

The distance between the targets makes it difficult to see exactly where the arrows fall, so they listen for the telltale sound of creaking wood that signals a hit. Each shot takes composure and balance to draw back the string, the equivalent of pulling 60 pounds of weight, while keeping a motionless center.

“You must concentrate entirely on your breathing, as if you had nothing else to do,” Dorji said. “Then you brace yourself for failure.”

Landing the arrow within an arrow’s length of the target merits one point. Hitting the target is worth two points. A bull’s-eye is three. There is no referee. The game is played on the honor system, with every player keeping track of their own points and adding a colored ribbon to their belt when they are successful.

continued next post

GeneChing

08-17-2020, 08:00 PM

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The game is played on the honor system. Hitting the target is worth two points, and a bull’s-eye is worth three.Credit...Raúl Vilchis for The New York Times

Every time an arrow hits its mark, the shooter’s teammates perform a song and dance to honor the accomplishment.

“We are all Buddhist, so it is not competitive,” said Thukten Jamtsho, 43, one of the competitors who works as an Uber driver. “We come to see each other, meet new friends, and bring the community together.”

Bhutan’s relationship with archery is long, according to the players. Legend holds that the father of the country’s first king, Ugyen Wangchuck, used his skills as an archer to defeat an invading British army in 1864, and from that point on the king promoted archery as the country’s national sport. Many of the archers in the club wear pins with photographs of the current king on their robes. As children in Bhutan, they sometimes began practicing with handmade bows and arrows cobbled from bamboo.

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“We are all Buddhist, so it is not competitive,” Thukten Jamtsho said of the games.Credit...Raúl Vilchis for The New York Times

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Each weekend in July, one volunteer made breakfast and lunch for the group. A typical midday meal was rice with the national dish Ema Datshi, a stew of green chilies and cheese sauce, or a fish curry.Credit...Raúl Vilchis for The New York Times

The activity is a popular way to socialize in rural areas in the country of about 750,000 people, and Bhutanese immigrants in New York wanted to bring the game to their adopted home, said Chador Wangdhi, 56, the oldest member of the group.

Wangdhi, who is on the committee that manages the club of about 90 shooters, works on the administrative staff for the permanent mission of Bhutan to the United Nations. He is one of only a small fraction of club members who don’t drive for ride-share companies.

Even before the pandemic, making a living as a driver in New York was getting more and more difficult, most of the archers said. It was good business until last year, when more cars on the road meant more competition for customers. Then the coronavirus came, with New York as one of the United States’ first hot spots, and the business dried up almost overnight.

“Little by little we are going to return, but it will be difficult,” said Sonam Ugyen, 28, an Uber driver and one of the archery group’s youngest shooters. “We are thinking of changing our profession or looking for new opportunities.”

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At the end of the game, the players will have walked 11 miles.Credit...Raúl Vilchis for The New York Times

Each weekend in July, one volunteer made breakfast and lunch for the group in an outdoor kitchen on the field. A typical midday meal was rice with the national dish Ema Datshi, a stew of green chilies and cheese sauce, or a fish curry.

Now that many of the drivers have started working again, though, they plan to return to their once-a-month schedule.

They said the serenity gained from more frequent practice in recent weeks would serve as preparation for their return to the heavy traffic and the anxiety of masked passengers in the city’s changed landscape.

“We come here to scare away evil spirits,” Dorji said as he took a sip of his suja, a butter tea. “The games are an offering so we can stay safe during the week, with no accidents.”

For Ugyen, archery and dealing with New York City traffic can be similar challenges. “Both are games where you need to maintain focus,” he said. “But the difference is that here, in this field, it is only the body that suffers. In the city, driving all day, it is the mind.”

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Rinzin taking a rest. Each day of play lasts about 12 hours.Credit...Raúl Vilchis for The New York Times

Fascinating. We only ran a few articles on archery under my watch. I wish we ran more.