手不空回 - Never come back empty-handed when you punch

[YouKnowWho]

If you miss your punch, do you intend to pull something back? Does your punch look like this?

http://imageshack.us/a/img195/20/schook.jpg

or look like this?

http://imageshack.us/a/img836/4671/7zlb.jpg

[-N-]

I don't treat that as a literal absolute, or something to chase after.

But it definately is a good principle to train and make useable.

[David Jamieson]

Not exactly sure what you are onto here.
Care to expand?

[YouKnowWho]

If you are a

- grappler, you want to pull your opponent into you (the counter force can pull you into your opponent) so you can create "clinch" ASAP.
- striker, you want to pull your opponent into your punch to cause a head on collision.

Of course if you just want to throw one punch after another, or you don't know what to do after the pulling, to "pull something back" may have little or no value to you. The issue is when you punch, do you "intend" to pull something back or not?

- What to pull?
- How to pull?
- When to pull?

all have to do with "sensitivity" when your opponent's arm tries to block/deflect your punch.

When you think about your punch like this, your punch is not just like a knife that stab into your opponent's chest but like a fish hook that after stabbing, you pull something out of his body. This is hard to do for if you have gloves on.

[YouKnowWho]

When you pull your hand back, your opponent may punch you at that moment. If you can pull your opponent's arm back, he won't be able to punch you at that moment. Since your arm will make contact on your opponent's arm, it's logical to take advantage on that situation.

http://www.wingchun-kuen.com/forum/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1547

手不空回，指動作上和力量上，動作上，回是徹，你收回的同時就是對方進攻的時機，如你手是空回，沒有防範意 識的回，對方便容易合你回之力，封鎖你雙手使你綀橋，固此詠春有許多翻手的動作，就是回手時仍然能控制對方 ，配合另一攻擊。
Never come back empty-handed, refers to action Shang and power Shang, action Shang, back is Fletcher, you recovered of while is each other attack of timing, as you hand is empty back, no prevention consciousness of back, each other will easy collection you back of force, blockade you hands make you counsellers bridge, solid this chants spring has many turned hand of action, is turn round and stretch out one ' s hand Shi still can control each other, tie other a attack.

[mickey]

Greetings,

If your hand can kiss your opponent, kiss more. Kiss fully. Kiss passionately. Kiss, kiss, kiss away your opponent's defensive inhibitions. It makes the grope so much more inviting.


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

This principle also exists in the XingYi system as well.

http://www.wulinzhi.com/chinese-traditional-martial-arts/xingyi-quan/shang-style/2797

李仲轩 当时对古拳谱“消息全凭后脚蹬＂有了領会，正在揣摩全身整体发力的技巧，打 拳频频发力，很是刚猛，尚云祥打断他，說：“动手可以这样，練拳不是这样。＂ 他說練形意拳时，要如捉虾般，出手的时候很轻快，收手的时候，手上要带着“东西＂回來，这“轻出重收＂四字 便是練拳的口诀，千金不易。

Li understood power came from the heel. When he generated power into his punch, Shang said, "You can do this in fighting but not in training". When you train XingYi Chuan, it's like trying to catch a shrimp. When you strike out, your hand has to be light and fast. When you pull your hand back, you have to bring something back. This kind of "light out heavy back" principle is very important in training.

[-N-]

手不空回 - Never come back empty-handed when you punch

If you miss your punch, do you intend to pull something back?

Hand not empty return - Don't return empty handed.

Not necessarily in relation to punching or missing a punch. And not absolute as in "never".


I don't treat that as a literal absolute, or something to chase after.

But it definately is a good principle to train and make useable.


Not exactly sure what you are onto here.
Care to expand?

More generalized, don't be focused solely on the intended initial action. You have followup opportunities that should not be wasted.

And if talking about striking, you can parry with one hand, land a back fist with the other, and turn the strike into a neck wrap while the parrying hand underhooks, for example.

[Syn7]

Kind of depends on what you're doing. I'm more of a grappler who likes to strike. I feel more comfortable in a clinch than squaring off, but if I feel I can handle it without grappling, I will. When doubt creeps in, that's when I start thinking more like a grappler. I wish I had learned all I have at the same time, but the timeline has for sure affected how I approach it.

[bawang]

If you are a

- grappler, you want to pull your opponent into you (the counter force can pull you into your opponent) so you can create "clinch" ASAP.
- striker, you want to pull your opponent into your punch to cause a head on collision.


its ridiculous to say a puncher wants to pull the opponent close to you, you begging to get taken down. you draw your punch back like touching fire.

[-N-]

its ridiculous to say a puncher wants to pull the opponent close to you, you begging to get taken down. you draw your punch back like touching fire.

If all you have is punching, then this is true.

YKW always sets up these either/or questions.

But the reality is that is not the case. He just a bored nice troll.

[bawang]

If all you have is punching, then this is true.

YKW always sets up these either/or questions.

But the reality is that is not the case. He just a bored nice troll.

no, he just honestly doesn't know that much about northern kung fu. these days nobody does, its like bodybuilding, all the magazines and articles are full of lies.

once all the smoke and mirrors go away, you find out kung fu is just kickboxing. for some, it can be a terrifying realization.

when some people throw a jab cross, they no longer "feel" like they are doing kung fu, their mind goes in another mode. when i do jab cross, i feel the same. i do kung fu.

[Bernard]

once all the smoke and mirrors go away, you find out kung fu is just kickboxing. for some, it can be a terrifying realization.


The movements in forms in the many different systems of kung fu don't seem to support the idea that kung fu is just kickboxing. There are many movements that would suggest grappling type movements.

[-N-]

no, he just honestly doesn't know that much about northern kung fu. these days nobody does, its like bodybuilding, all the magazines and articles are full of lies.

People read kung fu magazines???

[YouKnowWho]

its ridiculous to say a puncher wants to pull the opponent close to you, you begging to get taken down. you draw your punch back like touching fire.
It's clear to see that Brendan tried to pull his opponent into him (or pull himself into his opponent) at 1.34, 2.03, 2.06, 2.20, 2.26, 2.29, ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M7M7rLxcYg

The following clip is also a good drill to train.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2aah2E3EoQ

[bawang]

The following clip is also a good drill to train.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2aah2E3EoQ

pulling apart the opponents guard is different from pulling him towards you. you are begging to be taken down. in longfist this is called "tiger hug-bull crushes man" 虎抱-卧牛抢背

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hc0Gt_M16lM&t=216

[YouKnowWho]

pulling apart the opponents guard is different from pulling him towards you. you are begging to be taken down. in longfist this is called "tiger hug-bull crushes man" 虎抱-卧牛抢背

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hc0Gt_M16lM&t=216

You have to use 分手(Fen Shou) to pull your opponent's guard apart in order to enter into his front door. If you pull his one arm to jam his other arm, you can only enter into his side door.

[bawang]

You have to use 分手(Fen Shou) to pull your opponent's guard apart in order to enter into his front door. If you pull his one arm to jam his other arm, you can only enter into his side door.

u enter the door to wrestle FOO

[mickey]

Greetings,

YKW:

I think it would be nice if you would let us know when you are talking sport/drill or serious martial combatives in your initial posts. It creates a lot of confusion for some people.


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

u enter the door to wrestle FOO

Not necessary. If you think

- you are better than your opponent, you try to enter his front door.
- your opponent is better than you, you try to enter his side door.

[YouKnowWho]

I think it would be nice if you would let us know when you are talking sport/drill or serious martial combatives in your initial posts. It creates a lot of confusion for some people.

Since the sport will always have gloves. This strategy won't work well for the sport. So I assume I'm talking about "combat". When you punch and your opponent blocks your punch, you will have 2 options:

- Pull your hand back and try to punch again.
- Pull your opponent's blocking arm and take advantage on it (if you know how to).

When your opponent punches at you, you can block his punch. You then change your blocking into 采手(Cai Shou) and pull his arm back. "Not come back empty-handed after punch" is just more aggressive approach that you initial the punch instead. The concept is the same as 采手(Cai Shou).

[bawang]

When your opponent punches at you, you can block his punch. You then change your blocking into 采手(Cai Shou) and pull his arm back. "Not come back empty-handed after punch" is just more aggressive approach that you initial the punch instead. The concept is the same as 采手(Cai Shou).




an ancient technique to overcome retarded pattycake hand grabbing is the maneuver called "jab-cross". legend says it came from boddhidarma after he turned his curly indian pubes into tea leaves.

jab combine with cross, under heaven no enemy. cross combine with jab, even iron general will fall. ponder upon this deeply, my son.

[YouKnowWho]

"jab-cross".

The jab and cross will still function the same whether you pull something back or not.

Here is another example of pulling after punch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftsM9LSGx-Y

[Kellen Bassette]

Not necessary. If you think

- you are better than your opponent, you try to enter his front door.
- your opponent is better than you, you try to enter his side door.

Basic Shaolin strategy.

[mickey]

Greetings,

One thing that I have to remind myself is that you are coming from a wrestlers perspective, YKW. You need to have contact. When bawang posted that link of that guy getting slammed, it did not communicate well because it was, pretty much, you doing the slamming.

mickey

[lance]

If you miss your punch, do you intend to pull something back? Does your punch look like this?

http://imageshack.us/a/img195/20/schook.jpg

or look like this?

http://imageshack.us/a/img836/4671/7zlb.jpg If I miss my first punch , I ' ll retaliate with the other hand . Or if my first or second punch is being blocked , I would just redirect it .

[YouKnowWho]

I did Google on "手不空回 - Never come back empty-handed when you punch" and I find at least 4 TCMA systems has this. It's a quite common principle after all.

1. 吞吐拳 Tun Tu Quan

http://www.chazidian.com/r_ci_ed45c01f822fa79612c9cf391bdb522e/

2. WC

http://www.wingchun-kuen.com/forum/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1547

3. 万胜拳 Wan Shen Quan

http://baike.baidu.com/view/3069111.htm

4. XingYi

http://www.wulinzhi.com/chinese-traditional-martial-arts/xingyi-quan/shang-style/2797

[mickey]

Greetings,

I find nothing wrong with the saying. Conceptually, it can apply to striking as well; simply stated, "Don't Miss" Fullness is in making contact. Fullness is in dominating your enemy. Fullness is in taking full control of a situation.

In real fighting, why would that strategy come to mind? You are fighting for your life. You have deal with the moment and its VARIABLES.



mickey

[YouKnowWho]

In real fighting, why would that strategy come to mind? You are fighting for your life. You have deal with the moment and its VARIABLES.

One simple reason can be if your opponent's striking skill is better than yours. You are tired of getting hit by his punches.

[MightyB]

Since the sport will always have gloves. This strategy won't work well for the sport. So I assume I'm talking about "combat". When you punch and your opponent blocks your punch, you will have 2 options:

- Pull your hand back and try to punch again.
- Pull your opponent's blocking arm and take advantage on it (if you know how to).

When your opponent punches at you, you can block his punch. You then change your blocking into 采手(Cai Shou) and pull his arm back. "Not come back empty-handed after punch" is just more aggressive approach that you initial the punch instead. The concept is the same as 采手(Cai Shou).

Good description of Northern Mantis Kung Fu.

---

You have to intentionally train for this... if people have no interest in trapping hands, then you're wasting your breath trying to talk to them.

[tc101]

I did Google on "手不空回 - Never come back empty-handed when you punch" and I find at least 4 TCMA systems has this. It's a quite common principle after all.

1. 吞吐拳 Tun Tu Quan

http://www.chazidian.com/r_ci_ed45c01f822fa79612c9cf391bdb522e/

2. WC

http://www.wingchun-kuen.com/forum/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1547

3. 万胜拳 Wan Shen Quan

http://baike.baidu.com/view/3069111.htm

4. XingYi

http://www.wulinzhi.com/chinese-traditional-martial-arts/xingyi-quan/shang-style/2797

In wing chun the kuit as I learned it was when hand goes out it does not return and this refers to using the extended hand to attempt to further disrupt your opponent by pressing or pulling or jerking him and the tactic is not limited to his arms or his blocks.

[mickey]

YKW wrote:

"One simple reason can be if your opponent's striking skill is better than yours. You are tired of getting hit by his punches."

AGREED

What I meant and did not express well was that you really do not think of these principles when you are dealing. You goal is to survive, not to win.


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

In wing chun the kuit as I learned it was when hand goes out it does not return and this refers to using the extended hand to attempt to further disrupt your opponent by pressing or pulling or jerking him and the tactic is not limited to his arms or his blocks.
It depends on when and where your opponent has intersected your punch. Your choose may be limited. In the following clip, you may only be able to reach to your opponent's leading arm. If your hand can reach to your opponent's back arm, your options will be much more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftsM9LSGx-Y

[YouKnowWho]

What I meant and did not express well was that you really do not think of these principles when you are dealing. You goal is to survive, not to win.

To survive, I'll run like hell.

[tc101]

It depends on when and where your opponent has intersected your punch. Your choose may be limited. In the following clip, you may only be able to reach to your opponent's leading arm. If your hand can reach to your opponent's back arm, your options will be much more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftsM9LSGx-Y

I understand. As I learned it this is not something you always do but is a tactic and is an option best used in certain situations. Also as I said it is not just pulling and not just directed to his arms for example I can push or shove his shoulder to turn him or I can press on his face or torso to keep him off balance.