Do you agree with the following statement?

[YouKnowWho]

"A five minute round in the ring or on the mats will often teach you more about yourself than a lifetime of solo forms or cooperative, non full-contact training.”

The way that I look at this is you have to

- "develop" your skill from partner drill.
- "test" your skill from sparring/wrestling.

If you have never trained "hip throw", you can wrestle for the rest of your life, you still won't be able to apply "hip throw" in wrestling.

Your thought?

[Pete]

yes absolutely!! i also believe you can't train one without the other :D

edit: what i mean is can't only train your form, also need to spar too!

[David Jamieson]

Yes and No. Direct experience is always the best teacher.
I wouldn't diminish the value of training in strength, dexterity, agility etc. These all aid in that direct experience and prepare you for it.

So, the statement is made not in the spirit of learning, but rather as a cheap shot at traditional martial arts. Therefore, it's just a cheap shot statement that could have been a learning motivator with the simple: "A five minute round in the ring or on the mats will often teach you a lot about yourself"

Because it will also teach you more than a lifetime of weightlifting, or swimming, or bag work or running etc. So, it's a crap statement overall, but with a good statement on the front end. :)

[Pete]

i don't think it was a cheap shot at TMA... maybe a cheap shot at "masters" who only practice form?!

where did you get the statement from youknowwho ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

"A five minute round in the ring or on the mats will often teach you more about yourself than a lifetime of solo forms or cooperative, non full-contact training.”

The way that I look at this is you have to

- "develop" your skill from partner drill.
- "test" your skill from sparring/wrestling.

If you have never trained "hip throw", you can wrestle for the rest of your life, you still won't be able to apply "hip throw" in wrestling.

Your thought?

Agree, 100%

[Yum Cha]

A point is there to be made, but 5 minutes vs a lifetime? Lets be real here.

Ever seen Kill Amrnad?

[mickey]

Greetings,

I would rather the person find out in ring than on the street. If he finds out on the street, it might be too late.

mickey

[sanjuro_ronin]

A point is there to be made, but 5 minutes vs a lifetime? Lets be real here.

Ever seen Kill Amrnad?


5 minutes in the ring with a trained fighter trying to take your head off IS a lifetime the first time you do it.

[-N-]

5 minutes in the ring with a trained fighter trying to take your head off IS a lifetime the first time you do it.

Before Brendan Lai came to the US, his teacher had him go to one last class.

It was just Wong Hon Fan and Brendan Lai for the entire evening.

Brendan Lai referred to that time as, "When one night with Sifu was harder than 8 years of training."

[sanjuro_ronin]

Before Brendan Lai came to the US, his teacher had him go to one last class.

It was just Wong Hon Fan and Brendan Lai for the entire evening.

Brendan Lai referred to that time as, "When one night with Sifu was more than 8 years of training."

I hear ya.
Before my SPM and HK sifu's left for Macao, they gave Us ( me and their 3 other students) one last weekend.
It was years of training in 2 days.
The bruises lasted for weeks but those lessons will last a lifetime.

[YouKnowWho]

where did you get the statement from youknowwho ?

May be we should just discuss the concept without referencing the person.

I believe in sparring/wrestling 15 rounds daily. Form my experience, in sparring/wrestling you just keep using whatever the moves that works for you. You can make those moves work better and better. If your opponent is weak, once in a while you will try some new moves. If it works you will try it some more. If it doesn't, you will stop trying. If your opponent is strong, you may not want to take the risk and try something new. This is the wrong attitude but we all like to keep a good winning record. I had a spar/wrestling partner who liked to use his left leg to hook the outside of my right leg. After 10 years, he still liked to use the same move on me. IMO, by using sparring/wrestling, it's very difficult to grow out of your original boundary.

Maybe this approach will work for art such as BJJ. Will partner drills be able to help developing arm bar or choke? Can someone comment on this?

[David Jamieson]

May be we should just discuss the concept without referencing the person.

I believe in sparring/wrestling 15 rounds daily. Form my experience, in sparring/wrestling you just keep using whatever the moves that works for you. You can make those moves work better and better. If your opponent is weak, once in a while you will try some new moves. If it works you will try it some more. If it doesn't, you will stop trying. If your opponent is strong, you may not want to take the risk and try something new. This is the wrong attitude but we all like to keep a good winning record. I had a spar/wrestling partner who liked to use his left leg to hook the outside of my right leg. After 10 years, he still liked to use the same move on me. IMO, by using sparring/wrestling, it's very difficult to grow.

Maybe this approach will work for art such as BJJ. Can someone comment on this?

Do you compete regularly?

I see value in the donation of the day to the art if you are actually using the art with regularity outside of simply teaching.

I don't agree getting your ass handed to you will teach you much other than you need to practice and even then, it could be just the guy who handed you your ass and you need to learn how to counter him.

I don't agree with it being "better" than solo training etc and see that as a cheap shot trying to chest puff. It's arrogant BS basically and presumes more than it should.

It is diminishing specific work study of TCMA. So, the statement invalidates itself with it's crappy attitude about other practices. I'd stick with the idea that stepping up and stepping into a conflict and testing your art in a safe environment will indeed teach you about how you are doing with your learning and it will teach you about yourself too. Will 5 minutes in a ring improve your skill? No. Anything could happen in there and it could run the gamut from no value to low value to high value.

[SavvySavage]

i don't think it was a cheap shot at TMA... maybe a cheap shot at "masters" who only practice form?!

where did you get the statement from youknowwho ?

The person who made the statement was Tim Cartmell, bjj blackbelt and internal martial art expert. Here is the interview.

http://blog.awma.com/tim-cartmell-true-to-the-original-directive/

[David Jamieson]

I still disagree and still regard the last half of it as arrogant and chest puffing.

[YouKnowWho]

In 1 of my longfist forms, there was a foot sweep that's done by the left leg. Since I had repeated that from so many times when I was young, even today, my left leg foot sweep is still better than my right leg foot sweep.

[SavvySavage]

I still disagree and still regard the last half of it as arrogant and chest puffing.

For those of us that have to be on the Internet secretly because we're at work can you copy and past the part you're referring to? Thanks.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Drills and "compliant training" serve their purpose, that of developing and perfecting your technique BUT they do NOT serve the purpose of testing them OR yourself.
It is not, however, a case of either/or.
We use both, always.

[Frost]

I still disagree and still regard the last half of it as arrogant and chest puffing.

lol pot meet kettle :) how's it going removing that foot from your mouth now you know it was made by someone whose tcma expereince dwarfs yours :) the statement is spot on and unfortunately people still can't see the wood for the trees

[MightyB]

5 minutes in the ring with a trained fighter trying to take your head off IS a lifetime the first time you do it.

I agree 100%
But...

You're wasting your breath on people who'll never gain this experience out of fear and feigned humility and can't have a proper frame of reference.

So there's no discussion here. Those of us who have, know. That's about all there is to say.

[MightyB]

how's that for arrogant chest puffing! :) :p

[David Jamieson]

lol pot meet kettle :) how's it going removing that foot from your mouth now you know it was made by someone whose tcma expereince dwarfs yours :) the statement is spot on and unfortunately people still can't see the wood for the trees

No difference, I think Cartmell is full of beans with this statement. The first part I'm fine with. The last part is an empty cheap shot that has no real meaning.
I don't believe his or your experience dwarfs mine. But that's just your ego talking Seeing as you have issues of some sort and need to think yourself better when you aren't.

The rest is off. Make an argument for it. It's a shallow statement.

[David Jamieson]

Drills and "compliant training" serve their purpose, that of developing and perfecting your technique BUT they do NOT serve the purpose of testing them OR yourself.
It is not, however, a case of either/or.
We use both, always.

It's a dumb remark. You train kung fu, do you train like a sissy? Do you never gear up and go? It's ego whack off talk. Cartmell can tell me to shove it if he likes.

[David Jamieson]

Yes and No. Direct experience is always the best teacher.
I wouldn't diminish the value of training in strength, dexterity, agility etc. These all aid in that direct experience and prepare you for it.

So, the statement is made not in the spirit of learning, but rather as a cheap shot at traditional martial arts. Therefore, it's just a cheap shot statement that could have been a learning motivator with the simple: "A five minute round in the ring or on the mats will often teach you a lot about yourself"

Because it will also teach you more than a lifetime of weightlifting, or swimming, or bag work or running etc. So, it's a crap statement overall, but with a good statement on the front end. :)


lol pot meet kettle :) how's it going removing that foot from your mouth now you know it was made by someone whose tcma expereince dwarfs yours :) the statement is spot on and unfortunately people still can't see the wood for the trees

There, does that help you understand my position on it?

[Frost]

No difference, I think Cartmell is full of beans with this statement. The first part I'm fine with. The last part is an empty cheap shot that has no real meaning.
I don't believe his or your experience dwarfs mine. But that's just your ego talking Seeing as you have issues of some sort and need to think yourself better when you aren't.

The rest is off. Make an argument for it. It's a shallow statement.

its your ego that won't accept he knows more than you and me :) he studied with some of the greatest masters in Taiwan and china and competed in major comps...what have you done that that doesn't dwarf...:)

[David Jamieson]

its your ego that won't accept hr knows more than you and me :) he studied with some of the greatest masters in Taiwan and china and competed in major comps...what have you done that that doesn't dwarf...:)

Stop trying to troll me Frost, it's boring.

[tc101]

"A five minute round in the ring or on the mats will often teach you more about yourself than a lifetime of solo forms or cooperative, non full-contact training.”

The way that I look at this is you have to

- "develop" your skill from partner drill.
- "test" your skill from sparring/wrestling.

If you have never trained "hip throw", you can wrestle for the rest of your life, you still won't be able to apply "hip throw" in wrestling.

Your thought?

I have learned that there are two main parts to training a martial art.

The first part is learning and or sharpening the tools of whatever art you practice. This is what the forms and the drills are for. Even after we learn the tools we continue to sharpen them to both keep the rust off and to make our performance of the actions better.

The second part is learning and developing our ability to use or apply those tools in a fighting or adversarial situation. That is what sparring is for. Forms and drills cannot develop that ability. That is what I think our quote is referring to.

Both parts are needed to develop skill. You learn and practice the hip throw in drills. You learn and practice your hip throw while wrestling to develop your skill in applying the hip throw in wrestling. You keep doing drills to better your performance of the action or movement and you keep sparring or wrestling to get better at using it in wrestling.

Testing is performance nothing more.

[Frost]

Stop trying to troll me Frost, it's boring.

nice comeback :)

[Yum Cha]

5 minutes in the ring with a trained fighter trying to take your head off IS a lifetime the first time you do it.

I had a few 30 second rounds before I got up to 3 minutes...btw...:p

You train 5 years and go into the ring. You train no years and go into the ring. Who has the advantage?

You train 5 years and go into the ring against a guy that has just had two fights. Who has the advantage? Yes, it decreases, but...

All we are saying is that an experienced fighter will beat an inexperienced fighter, regardless of the training the inexperienced fighter has.

I'll play devils advocate because I know a soft non-fighter guy that got attacked on the street and used his training to sort it out. I have to assume the thugs on the street had plenty of fight time. He's a badass NOW though....

[Dragonzbane76]

5 minutes in the ring with a trained fighter trying to take your head off IS a lifetime the first time you do it.

yes, yes it is. :)

[YouKnowWho]

Many years ago, one day a guy walked into my school. He told me that he didn't want to learn forms, techniques, stances, stretching. He just wanted to learn fighting. Since he could pay me real good, I met him 4 times a week, 2 hours a session.

In that 8 months we put on gloves and tried to kill each other for more than 300 hours of hard sparring. Sometime I had to hit him on the same spot more than once in order to stop his forward attack. In that 8 months, there was not a single day that I didn't have pain on my body. After 8 months of such training, one day he came back and told me that his training worked for him. He got into a pool room fight (he was an excellent pool player and play for money too). His opponent tried to hit him but could not even touch his body. Finally his opponent sat down on a chair, got mad at himself, and didn't know what had just happened.

He had developed a very strong defense along with good footwork. Did he develop a strong offense skill? Not really. Since he had 50 lbs weight advantage over me and his punches were quite strong, I had to play offense and put him in defense all the time. His offense skill was not fully developed in those 8 months.

So from my personal experience, trying to use sparring/wrestling to "develop" techniques may have some limitation. If your opponent is too

- strong, you won't be able to fully develop your offense skill.
- weak, you won't be able to fully develop your defense skill.

[mawali]

"A five minute round in the ring or on the mats will often teach you more about yourself than a lifetime of solo forms or cooperative, non full-contact training.”

The way that I look at this is you have to

- "develop" your skill from partner drill.
- "test" your skill from sparring/wrestling.

If you have never trained "hip throw", you can wrestle for the rest of your life, you still won't be able to apply "hip throw" in wrestling.

Your thought?

Verdad que si! That is the truth.
When you are doing this slow stuff without an 'enemy' you imagine yourself invincible but when you get hit, you start to crap your draws because you worshipped BS and were unwilling to adapt or understand how to train.

[tc101]

So from my personal experience, trying to use sparring/wrestling to "develop" techniques may have some limitation. If your opponent is too

- strong, you won't be able to fully develop your offense skill.
- weak, you won't be able to fully develop your defense skill.

To be honest I think you just poorly trained the guy. I help train as an assistant coach boxers including pros and I have visited trained at and seen some top coaches and it doesn't work like that. Good trainers have a sparring progression that helps you put things together for yourself. We talk about defense and offense but they are not really two separate things but merge together to make it all work. Your defense sets up your offense which acts as a defense and so on. Without a defense you have no offense and without an offense no defense.

[xcakid]

"A five minute round in the ring or on the mats will often teach you more about yourself than a lifetime of solo forms or cooperative, non full-contact training.”



Your thought?


Yes, I agree 100%

[EternalSpring]

Agree for the most part.

I feel that some people disagree because they think that the lessons of a 3/5/etc min round will end after the last bell rings. Based on my experience, if you go against a competent opponent, you're going to at least experience some difficulty somewhere at some point, and you'll be thinking about those moments long after the round ends, if not for the rest of your life. There's a bittersweet feeling to laying in bed to go to sleep at night while thinking about why you feel the aches you're feeling after some harder contact sparring.

Its the great endless cycle
1. Train a technique(s)
2. Test yourself more realistically
3. Analyze your "test results"
4. Train more based on "test results"
5. Test new training results
6. (and so on)
7. Profit

[sanjuro_ronin]

Agree for the most part.

I feel that some people disagree because they think that the lessons of a 3/5/etc min round will end after the last bell rings. Based on my experience, if you go against a competent opponent, you're going to at least experience some difficulty somewhere at some point, and you'll be thinking about those moments long after the round ends, if not for the rest of your life. There's a bittersweet feeling to laying in bed to go to sleep at night while thinking about why you feel the aches you're feeling after some harder contact sparring.

Its the great endless cycle
1. Train a technique(s)
2. Test yourself more realistically
3. Analyze your "test results"
4. Train more based on "test results"
5. Test new training results
6. (and so on)
7. Profit

Nice cycle.
I would only add that, since we ARE MA and not "just" sport fighters, this means we may have to deal with a skill set OUTSIDE the one we train daily, so I think we should also "cross test" our skills VS other skill sets whenever possible.

[YouKnowWho]

To be honest I think you just poorly trained the guy.

In that 8 months, there were no "training" at all. All we did was sparring. We didn't even train jab, cross, roundhouse kick, side kick, hip throw, single leg, ... all those basic tools. That was what he wanted. That was what he was willing to pay for.

That was my point, without "training" and with only "sparring", there will be some limitation. Both extremes won't work well. We have to find the middle point. That pretty much apply to everything in our life.

[YouKnowWho]

Its the great endless cycle

1. Train a technique(s)
2. Test yourself more realistically
3. Analyze your "test results"
4. Train more based on "test results"
5. Test new training results
6. (and so on)
7. Profit
I'll add:

- train the counters of that techniques.
- train the counters of those counters of that techniques.
- ...

If you can put yourself on the other side, you can see your technique much more clearly.

For example, most of the throws will require body spinning. But if your opponent can spin with you, he can drag you all the way down to the ground effortless. So how will you prevent this from happening? You have to modify your technique and make sure when you spin, you are safe. What modification will you need? The TCMA will get more and more interest from here on.

[SavvySavage]

A five minute round will show you what level your conditioning is at which will clue you into how you should modify your training.

Will you close up like a turtle going into its shell because you're so tired and afraid of being hit?

Will you grab the other person's gi, not attempt any throws, and just hang on for dear life when exhausted?

Will you start looking away or down or even close your eyes when tired?

Will you b!tch like a little princess and claim your partner broke the rules because you are so frustrated from losing?

Will you start coaching your opponent mid-match to try to make yourself look good when on reality you're losing?

Will you have a panic attack/sh!t fit like a friend of mine who didnt want to spar on one particular day? She didnt want to spar but the teacher made her go light because that's what they did at the end of class. Her partner/friend hit her a few times which caused her to start crying, gasping for air, and have intense rage. She thought she was having an asthma attack but it didnt end when she used her inhaler. Later on she figured out it wasn't asthma because of the intense anger she felt in the moment. She literally lost her sh!t and caused everyone to panic and worry about her.

You focus on the yin/yang aspect and train te opposite then watch to see if what you were doing improved next time out.

[EternalSpring]

Nice cycle.
I would only add that, since we ARE MA and not "just" sport fighters, this means we may have to deal with a skill set OUTSIDE the one we train daily, so I think we should also "cross test" our skills VS other skill sets whenever possible.

truth. that's actually a very important point you bring up. With so many ways to fight, nothing would be more discouraging than being skilled in one method and then getting obliterated by sheer surprise because of the lack of knowledge of what's out there.

[EternalSpring]

I'll add:

- train the counters of that techniques.
- train the counters of those counters of that techniques.
- ...

If you can put yourself on the other side, you can see your technique much more clearly.

For example, most of the throws will require body spinning. But if your opponent can spin with you, he can drag you all the way down to the ground effortless. So how will you prevent this from happening? You have to modify your technique and make sure when you spin, you are safe. What modification will you need? The TCMA will get more and more interest from here on.

indeed, another very good point since thinking about what happened in a round is never enough and has to be followed up with the necessary training. Also interesting because you brought it a step forward with "training the counters of the counters" and so on. Now you mention that, I realize I dont spend enough time thinking of and training counters to counters. For me, the actual exchange of attacks is a short process that keeps resetting and repeating till the fight is done. It's not necessarily bad way of thinking, but it reminds me of a bad habit i had being a no0b boxer, which was, I went in with 1-2 combos only, even when I landed my shots and could've gone on and kinda "stopped." Meanwhile my opponents would knock my head back and hook to my body and go on till he was owning me in a corner or i was down :o

lol, starting now I'm going to be extra aware/alert in my sparring of whether or not I'm not attacking or countering when i should be.

[YouKnowWho]

If you only train "hook punch" and "dodge under a hook punch", the following 2 situations will never happen.

- You throw a hook punch.
- Your opponent dodges under it.
- When his head comes out the other side, your use your elbow to strike on the side of his head.

- You throw a hook punch.
- Your opponent dodges under it. He uses his hand to press on your elbow to prevent your elbow strike.
- When his head comes out the other side, your use your other hand to remove his elbow blocking hand, and still use your elbow to strike on the side of his head.