Examining a classic stance

[MightyB]

Something Great Came from the Wing Chun Forum's infighting! This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4 was posted in a thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66469)started by GlennR

It's an examination of the classic boxing fighting stance in comparison to the modern square fighter's stance. IMO, it's really not significantly different than the classic northern TCMA stance - is there something we can learn or apply based on this video?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Something Great Came from the Wing Chun Forum's infighting! This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4 was posted in a thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66469)started by GlennR

It's an examination of the classic boxing fighting stance in comparison to the modern square fighter's stance. IMO, it's really not significantly different than the classic northern TCMA stance - is there something we can learn or apply based on this video?

Yes, THAT is how one makes a good video.

[bawang]

It's an examination of the classic boxing fighting stance in comparison to the modern square fighter's stance. IMO, it's really not significantly different than the classic northern TCMA stance - is there something we can learn or apply based on this video?

the classic northern TCMA stance is the modern square fighters stance. u mad?



U MAD?

[MightyB]

the classic northern TCMA stance is the modern square fighters stance. u mad?

U MAD?

You really need to get out and actually study kung fu.

Anyone familiar with the orthodox northern TCMA fighting stance will see some similarity to the classic boxing stance - the exception being that Northern kung fu prefers the dominant hand in front.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3a00000/3a04000/3a04800/3a04816r.jpg
http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/1sullivanvsmitchell.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

Comparative pics would be nice...

[MightyB]

Comparative pics would be nice...

Too many contemporary artists are into kung fu. Did a couple of searches for northern kung fu terms with the term "illustration" hoping to find something historic and couldn't. So - if you don't know or haven't been exposed to a legit Northern system, you're SOL. Basically, look at the first pic I posted, stand like that but with your dominant hand forward in a fist and open your back guard hand, lower your center of gravity slightly - and valla - you're pretty much standing in the classic northern TCMA fighting stance.

[bawang]

Too many contemporary artists are into kung fu. Did a couple of searches for northern kung fu terms with the term "illustration" hoping to find something historic and couldn't. So - if you don't know or haven't been exposed to a legit Northern system, you're SOL. Basically, look at the first pic I posted, stand like that but with your dominant hand forward in a fist and open your back guard hand, lower your center of gravity slightly - and valla - you're pretty much standing in the classic northern TCMA fighting stance.

theres no such thing as "modern" fighting stance. classical western boxing doesn't tuck the chin to show elegance and grace. it was called the gentleman stance, or with style. modern boxing tucks the chin for safety, it was called commoner stance or without style.

[wenshu]

http://i.imgur.com/KNfJaWp.png

[RenDaHai]

theres no such thing as "modern" fighting stance. classical western boxing doesn't tuck the chin to show elegance and grace. it was called the gentleman stance, or with style. modern boxing tucks the chin for safety, it was called commoner stance or without style.

The main difference in stance between classical styles and modern styles is that in old styles people tended to keep their feet in line. Now people favour a wider base with legs apart. This affects the way you hold your upper body, head and hands. I think there is this difference.

[sanjuro_ronin]

theres no such thing as "modern" fighting stance. classical western boxing doesn't tuck the chin to show elegance and grace. it was called the gentleman stance, or with style. modern boxing tucks the chin for safety, it was called commoner stance or without style.

Classical boxing dealt with far less head shots than modern boxing and many of those were "uppercutting" and as such, the more "upright" head would allow for a better chance to evade those "uppward" strikes.
Since Hooks as we now throw them were NOT used ( they were more round house punches than hooks), the high chin wasn't as much of an issue.
The "chin tucked" in is a must on modern fighting.

[bawang]

Classical boxing dealt with far less head shots than modern boxing and many of those were "uppercutting" and as such, the more "upright" head would allow for a better chance to evade those "uppward" strikes.
Since Hooks as we now throw them were NOT used ( they were more round house punches than hooks), the high chin wasn't as much of an issue.
The "chin tucked" in is a must on modern fighting.

during 1890s transition from classical boxing to modern boxing, the main objection from classical supporters is modern boxing looks ugly and brutal.

[wenshu]

Classical boxing dealt with far less head shots than modern boxing and many of those were "uppercutting" and as such, the more "upright" head would allow for a better chance to evade those "uppward" strikes.

say what now

[bawang]

say what now

I think he saw some guy on youtube claiming this.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think he saw some guy on youtube claiming this.

It was a Van damme movie, get your sources right.

[wenshu]

http://www.animoller.com/images/jean_claude_got_moves.gif

[sanjuro_ronin]

http://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/31430/81927368.gif

[bawang]

once again, this thread is about wanting fighting to look beautiful.

[sanjuro_ronin]

once again, this thread is about wanting fighting to look beautiful.

So about the typical impractical fighting of northern kung fu systems.
Got it.
:D

[bawang]

So about the typical impractical fighting of northern kung fu systems.
Got it.
:D

that's right, northern kung fu is not practical. I can recognize the faults in my kung fu. for many people their own style is their blind spot.

its important go back to tabula rasa, the blank slate. if u forget everything u ever learned about kung fu, u will find the real kung fu.

[MightyB]

that's right, northern kung fu is not practical. I can recognize the faults in my kung fu. for many people their own style is their blind spot.

Bawang, you poor disillusioned soul. Real kung fu is so close to you now, yet you are so far away. :(

[bawang]

Bawang, you poor disillusioned soul. Real kung fu is so close to you now, yet you are so far away. :(

you have not deprogrammed yourself. also, kung fu ultimately is an exotic oriental hobby game to you. the goal is to feel good, and look cool.

if you do sh1t kung fu and get beat up, its a shame to you personally. if I do sh1t kung fu and get beat up, it is a shame to my race and my ancestors.

if you do sh1t kung fu and get beat up, you are a weak person, you fulfill the kung fu nerd stereotype. if I do sh1t kung fu and get beat up. its assumed chinese are physically weaker than westerners, I will fulfill the weak chinaman stereotype. so for me I cannot afford to get my head in the clouds with wong fei hong theme song playing in my head.

[MightyB]

there is nothing beautiful about it. It's about taking the non square fighting stance - and it's still used in boxing, I've always hated when people get lazy and drop their lead arm - and that very stance is the same as the traditional fighting stance - except tcma prefers a southpaw lead.

Now the video highlights some interesting points about the classical stance that I never thought about and it's all about positioning and available targets that you give to your opponent. I personally started to adopt a more square - modern orthodox lead because of a tendency to be a thrower (judo) and a desire to bring in more of my rear hand to play, but after seeing the video, I may revisit the traditional stance.

That's the point of this type of thread.

We get it, MMA guys are demigods and everything we as traditional martial artists do is pointless. :rolleyes:

[Golden Arms]

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1167/boxeoantiguo.jpg

http://www.appliedcombat.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/CLC1-223x300.jpg

I can't speak for your style but ours works just fine.

[MightyB]

you have not deprogrammed yourself. also, kung fu ultimately is an exotic oriental hobby game to you. the goal is to feel good, and look cool.

if you do sh1t kung fu and get beat up, its a shame to you personally. if I do sh1t kung fu and get beat up, it is a shame to my race and my ancestors.

if you do sh1t kung fu and get beat up, you are a weak person, you fulfill the kung fu nerd stereotype. if I do sh1t kung fu and get beat up. its assumed chinese are physically weaker than westerners, I will fulfill the weak chinaman stereotype. so for me I cannot afford to get my head in the clouds with wong fei hong theme song playing in my head.

I've fought san shou, and I've fought in Judo Shiai / grappling competitions yet I still like and believe in traditional martial arts. I have my critiques of some things but I still see and know the real deal and TCMA is full of the real deal.

Seriously Bawang... Midland's a stone throw away. You need to see real kung fu. It'd do your soul some good. Make you feel proud of your ancestry.

[MightyB]

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1167/boxeoantiguo.jpg

http://www.appliedcombat.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/CLC1-223x300.jpg

I can't speak for your style but mine works just fine.

Awesome! This is a great comparison pic. kind've why I brought this thread up. (and to liven up a dead board with some new discussion. Although it's turning quickly into another Same Ol' Sh** thread).

There are many good practical things in TCMA.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Awesome! This is a great comparison pic. kind've why I brought this thread up. (and to liven up a dead board with some new discussion. Although it's turning quickly into another Same Ol' Sh** thread).

There are many good practical things in TCMA.

Of course and, all kidding and teasing kung fu aside, we all know that.

Some of the classical stance were forward , some balanced and some backward.
It depended on the style of the fighter.
A defensive or counter-puncher would have favoured a different one from a attacker, same as today.

The fact is that with the use of gloves, fighter punched ( and connected) far more often than the "classical" fighters did and fighters today, even more so.
As such the stances and guards changed/evolved accordingly.

[Jimbo]

You really need to get out and actually study kung fu.

Anyone familiar with the orthodox northern TCMA fighting stance will see some similarity to the classic boxing stance - the exception being that Northern kung fu prefers the dominant hand in front.

Yes, when I did northern style, the preferred stance was right lead/southpaw position. But in the main lineage of my CLF, we start from the left lead/orthodox stance, and through stepping and combinations work into the right lead most of the time. That left lead stance has some resemblance to the classic boxing stance, but with slightly more weight towards the front. I personally prefer a variation of this stance, though, and emphasize mobility. Other CLF methods generally seem to prefer the right lead throughout.

[Jimbo]

Of course and, all kidding and teasing kung fu aside, we all know that.

Some of the classical stance were forward , some balanced and some backward.
It depended on the style of the fighter.
A defensive or counter-puncher would have favoured a different one from a attacker, same as today.

The fact is that with the use of gloves, fighter punched ( and connected) far more often than the "classical" fighters did and fighters today, even more so.
As such the stances and guards changed/evolved accordingly.

Not to mention more KOs today, due to use of gloves, which greatly lessened the risk of broken hands.

[sanjuro_ronin]

the classic northern TCMA stance is the modern square fighters stance. u mad?



U MAD?

Here is where you guys are talking pass each other.
Mighty B did NOT say that the MODERN boxing stances is like the classical northern TCMA stance.
He said that the CLASSICAL boxing one was.

[-N-]

if you do sh1t kung fu and get beat up, its a shame to you personally. if I do sh1t kung fu and get beat up, it is a shame to my race and my ancestors.

if you do sh1t kung fu and get beat up, you are a weak person, you fulfill the kung fu nerd stereotype. if I do sh1t kung fu and get beat up. its assumed chinese are physically weaker than westerners, I will fulfill the weak chinaman stereotype. so for me I cannot afford to get my head in the clouds with wong fei hong theme song playing in my head.

Just last week, a couple of us gave a very similar explanation to our students when they asked why we put so much effort in teaching them for free.

The gist of which was, "so you don't give kungfu, your culture, and all of us Chinese a bad name..."

[Kellen Bassette]

The idea that a "modern" or "classical" stance should be mutually exclusive is wrong, IMO. They are both good and appropriate in context. This is the trouble with all fighting systems, including "mma" when it is thought of as a system, their method must always be best.

I heard a pro MMA fighter say Muay Thai stance is no good, too high, weight to the back, easier to take down. This is true, but every good kick boxer knows when the weight is heavier on the front leg is the time to leg kick, (like a wrestler stands, or modern square stance.) With weight heavy to the front, it is very difficult to check a leg kick, shoulders square instead of 45 is more open, better to shoot, but worse to defend against strikes.

Squared shoulders is an aggressive posture, shoulder turned is defensive. Why wouldn't we want to train both?

I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong, if I think my opponent will shoot, I will use square stance, if I think he will kick my leg I will use Thai stance, both serve their purpose and I think modern and classical approach should be trained. (Although I think "modern square stance" is not at all new or modern.)

Gung Bu is an exaggerated square stance.

http://moneynewsworld.net/wp-content/themes/mystream/cache/mma-fighting-stance-i2.jpg

Traditional Muay Thai stance, is not unlike a high empty/cat stance.

http://www.the-mixed-martial-arts-of-mma.com/images/Muay-Thai-Stance.jpg

It's not better or worse, but what fits your strategy and what your opponent is doing.

http://allgofitnessblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/shogun1.png

[Lucas]

No can Defend.

http://www.nypost.com/r/nypost/blogs/popwrap/200905/Images/200905_Crane-kick.jpg

[sanjuro_ronin]

The best stance is the one that works best for you when you need it to.

[wenshu]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7TskutJO0Eg/TGoAJDiTqJI/AAAAAAAAACQ/Qj4djBtm9eY/s1600/squat1.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

Squared shoulders is an aggressive posture, shoulder turned is defensive.
The left arm lead with right leg lead is more aggressive than the squared shoulder stance. Your "fully compressed" right arm is ready to punch out whenever you want to.


that Northern kung fu prefers the dominant hand in front.

TCMA is more than just a striking art.

[bawang]

Here is where you guys are talking pass each other.
Mighty B did NOT say that the MODERN boxing stances is like the classical northern TCMA stance.
He said that the CLASSICAL boxing one was.

I know. and I said the modern boxing stance is like the classical northern TCMA stance, to slap him spiritually, u know. the truth is we are both right, cuz northern kung fu has like 6 or 7 fighting stances.


Just last week, a couple of us gave a very similar explanation to our students when they asked why we put so much effort in teaching them for free.

The gist of which was, "so you don't give kungfu, your culture, and all of us Chinese a bad name..."

ur chilese? I thot ur the tightey whitey.

[-N-]

ur chilese? I thot ur the tightey whitey.

Chilese boxers - not tightey whiteys

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/n_zps41343a70.jpg

[bawang]

Chilese boxers - not tightey whiteys

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/n_zps41343a70.jpg

wow mang. we r like brothers from different mothers who do the sex to same father. maximum respek.

[-N-]

wow mang. we r like brothers from different mothers who do the sex to same father. maximum respek.

If you visit Bay Area, we give you free Praying Mantis too.

[bawang]

If you visit Bay Area, we give you free Praying Mantis too.

will u be the father I never had

[Kellen Bassette]

will u be the father I never had

I thought John Wang was your BaBa...apparently alliances don't run to deep around here. :eek:

[-N-]

will u be the father I never had

Now you talking like the tightey whitey.

[Lucas]

ya whats up with that bawang? usa turning u into tighty whitey?

[bawang]

ya whats up with that bawang? usa turning u into tighty whitey?

*luke skywalker voice

ill never join u

[Lucas]

You dont know the power of the dark side.

[bawang]

You dont know the power of the dark side.

your only saving grace is premier Obama. I saw him in a vision riding on a white horse. I pray to him every day to give me wife and tv with remote control.

[Lucas]

dont forget tiger woods

hes chocolate asia and bangbang all the white girls

[bawang]

dont forget tiger woods

hes chocolate asia and bangbang all the white girls

tiger wood is dirty jungle Asian. he no honer.

[Lucas]

he got rich defeating the tighty whitey at their last remaining sport tho. redeem

[bawang]

he got rich defeating the tighty whitey at their last remaining sport tho. redeem

that is truf

*strokes fu Manchu beard

[Lucas]

sides this is what obama looks like when he takes off his make up. no can trust

http://patdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/obama-white-550x350.jpg

[bawang]

I hear one drop tear of Obama can cure any disease in the world

[Kellen Bassette]

he got rich defeating the tighty whitey at their last remaining sport tho. redeem

They'll never get croquet! :mad:

[bawang]

looks like nelly Furtado gained some weight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL_mEYP8N-A&feature=player_embedded

[Kellen Bassette]

looks like nelly Furtado gained some weight
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL_mEYP8N-A&feature=player_embedded

I'm confused...is this kung fu or dancing?:confused:

[bawang]

I'm confused...is this kung fu or dancing?:confused:

this is pre song military hui long fist, with boot knife lesbian scissor uproot takedown

[Kellen Bassette]

this is pre song military hui long fist, with boot knife lesbian scissor uproot takedown

I will study this form and teach it immediately.

[bawang]

I think the lesson learned today is, if you fight with your hands protecting your face, you are doing modern knucklehead kickboxing. if you lower your hands and don't protect your face, you are classic northern TCMA warrior poet hero English gentleman.

MY FACE IS MY SHIELD™

[Kellen Bassette]

I also learned from your pre-Song Long Fist video that the cane was an authentic military weapon and my suspicions that Damo was a woman are now confirmed.

[bawang]

I also learned from your pre-Song Long Fist video that the cane was an authentic military weapon and my suspicions that Damo was a woman are now confirmed.

yes, the elusive proto mongoloid damo cane, the only photographic boxing belonging to the non-photographic boxing families. the mystery of guandong quan is now solved.

[Kellen Bassette]

It shall be discussed at great length and with unbridled fervor in the Shaolin Forum.

[PalmStriker]

I use classic boxing stance that is the foundation for my blocking (full body) stance. That disruption is something I like to throw up at the last split second if under attack.

[GlennR]

Something Great Came from the Wing Chun Forum's infighting! This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81non05aKX4 was posted in a thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66469)started by GlennR

It's an examination of the classic boxing fighting stance in comparison to the modern square fighter's stance. IMO, it's really not significantly different than the classic northern TCMA stance - is there something we can learn or apply based on this video?

God, ive mad the big time and escaped the clutches of the WC forum.

You guys have a Hendrik equivalent here?

[Kellen Bassette]

You guys have a Hendrik equivalent here?

I have not seen his equal in all my travels. :D

[GlennR]

I have not seen his equal in all my travels. :D

True, his videos of "monotonous death" are unrivalled

[B.Tunks]

Yes, when I did northern style, the preferred stance was right lead/southpaw position. But in the main lineage of my CLF, we start from the left lead/orthodox stance, and through stepping and combinations work into the right lead most of the time.

That is the same with Tanglang. Orthodox, stepping forward into southpaw but returning to orthodox. Also, not all 'Northern' styles use right side lead. Many have a shifting guard and try to emphasise both sides. If anything, right side lead/southpaw is more prevalent in the Southern styles.

[YouKnowWho]

That is the same with Tanglang. Orthodox, stepping forward into southpaw but returning to orthodox. Also, not all 'Northern' styles use right side lead. Many have a shifting guard and try to emphasise both sides. If anything, right side lead/southpaw is more prevalent in the Southern styles.

In the throwing art, you definitely want to put your strong side forward.

Here is a simple example, If you want to use your right leg to block your opponent's legs, you have to keep your right leg forward. If you put it back, you will need an extra step to cover the same distance. That will be just too slow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA2pS7tt9SU

If you train both the striking art and the throwing art, will you use southpaw or orthodox?

[B.Tunks]

If you train both the striking art and the throwing art, will you use southpaw or orthodox?

Use both. As with Tanglang.

[Jimbo]

That is the same with Tanglang. Orthodox, stepping forward into southpaw but returning to orthodox. Also, not all 'Northern' styles use right side lead. Many have a shifting guard and try to emphasise both sides. If anything, right side lead/southpaw is more prevalent in the Southern styles.

Thank you for sharing.

Although my CLF's main lineage generally emphasizes the orthodox into southpaw, for myself, I'm comfortable from whichever position I happen to be in. Which IMO is good for standup, because oftentimes you have to act/react from the position you happen to be in relative to your opponent. And this can develop naturally, without necessarily having to obsessively mirror every movement or combo for each side during practice.

[YouKnowWho]

Have you guys tried the "cross stance" that you have right leg forward with left hand forward?

[bawang]

Have you guys tried the "cross stance" that you have right leg forward with left hand forward?

it sounds very advanced. Im scare to try.

[-N-]

Have you guys tried the "cross stance" that you have right leg forward with left hand forward?

Typically, by the time we are in that position we are already moving in and attacking. This is transitional.

One exception is when it is a trap or invitation.

Brendan Lai's teacher, Wong Hon Fan, liked to use empty stance with an open high/low guard in "cross" configuration to let the other person try to attack down the center.

[YouKnowWho]

Typically, by the time we are in that position we are already moving in and attacking. This is transitional.

One exception is when it is a trap or invitation.

Brendan Lai's teacher, Wong Hon Fan, liked to use empty stance with an open high/low guard in "cross" configuration to let the other person try to attack down the center.

The cross stance is quite commonly used in the SC environment. You extend your minor (non-major) hand out to confuse your opponent (such as pretend that you want to grab his left lapel). When he moves his left shoulder back, he will give you exactly what your are looking for, his right sleeve.

If your opponent doesn't move his left shoulder back and allow you to use your left hand to grab on his left lapel, you can take your opponent down just by a hop in with your left back leg and spring on his left leg with your leading right leg.

Since your right leg is already forward, you can use your right leg to attack whenever you want to.

[-N-]

I personally started to adopt a more square - modern orthodox lead because of a tendency to be a thrower (judo) and a desire to bring in more of my rear hand to play, but after seeing the video, I may revisit the traditional stance.

Mantis sets up the throw/takedown with striking.

By the time we bring the rear hand/side into play, we transition immediately through square all the way to the other side lead for takedown.

[-N-]

Have you guys tried the "cross stance" that you have right leg forward with left hand forward?


Typically, by the time we are in that position we are already moving in and attacking. This is transitional.


I personally started to adopt a more square - modern orthodox lead because of a tendency to be a thrower (judo) and a desire to bring in more of my rear hand to play, but after seeing the video, I may revisit the traditional stance.


Mantis sets up the throw/takedown with striking.

By the time we bring the rear hand/side into play, we transition immediately through square all the way to the other side lead for takedown.

One example is documented at the end of the first line of Bung Bo.

Step forward with right foot and punch with the right lead.

Grab with the right hand, jump in with a right flying knee attack, and pull him into your left cross.

In the transition of this attack, you have right leg/knee in front, left hand/punch in front, right hand in back.

This turns into a "stacking elbow" takedown as you land down from the flying knee.

You transition quickly through facing square with 2 handed cross grab as you bring the rear hand forward and step the right leg in deep behind the other guy for the takedown.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

http://i.imgur.com/KNfJaWp.png

I know that set!!!!!


Nanjing's 32 Killing Fist!!!

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Have you guys tried the "cross stance" that you have right leg forward with left hand forward?

It's in a number of my TZ forms. The moves that follow it in the forms, however, tells me it's an entry to a takedown. Sort of like a "mop", but from a 45 degree entry the other way.

[judyfholmes]

Muay thai is the most recognized form of martial arts. You need extreme level of martial arts lesson (https://plus.google.com/102233249903693041605/) to learn it as it uses various stand-up striking and clinching techniques.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Muay thai is the most recognized form of martial arts. You need extreme level of martial arts lesson (https://plus.google.com/102233249903693041605/) to learn it as it uses various stand-up striking and clinching techniques.

Sorry, WRONG! Tae Kwon Do is the most recognized form of martial arts. Then it's Karate as a close second, then 1970's style Kung Fu....then everything else which is all lumped together as "That other stuff"...or "What is that? Some sort of Chinese food?"

[bawang]

I know that set!!!!!


Nanjing's 32 Killing Fist!!!

ROFL


dfgdfg