Power vs. Speed

[YouKnowWho]

I don't remember that we have discussed this subject before or not. It's a very important subject anyway.

This is the general MA trade off issue. The praying mantis is very fast but the power is not all there.

Praying Mantis Kung Fu - Brendan Lai Meihua Quan - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOvO5L6VjSc)

The Baji is very powerful but the speed is not all there.

Baji quan--Adam Hsu - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OqWUFOtIHc)

The reason is simple. If you compress to the maximum and then release, you will generate the maximum amount of power. Unfortunately in combat, you don't have that luxury to obtain a full "compression".

If you look at Chenyu's and CXW's power generation. It takes them about 1 second to generate power for each of their strikes. That 1 second is just too slow in normal combat.

Chen taiji quan fajin by Chenyu 陈�太�拳 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_vcWq2GYXs)

https://myspace.com/431083890/video/cxw-fajin-techniques/330713

Even the XingYi Liu He system, the power generation is still to slow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcqQ9KhMYFY

By comparing the most famous power generation systems in TCMA, the Baji, Chen Taiji, and XingYi Liu He, none of them can match with the speed generated in the praying mantis system.

This is why in the

- intermediate training stage, you want to use your body to push/pull your limbs. This way you can generate the maximum amount of power.
- advance training stage, you want to use your body to chase your limbs. This way you can generate the maximum amount of speed.

Here is a simple test. When a mosquito flies in front of you and you want to smash that mosquito, will you use your body to push your hand, or will you let your body to chase your hand? Which part of your body will move first? This is a good example that you want to achieve the maximum speed, but you have to sacrifice some of your power.

Since all TCMA styles will involve with power generation and speed generation issue, what's your opinion on this?

[RAF]

Thought about this for some time--how much power do you really need to be effective?

Usually a skilled mantis practitioner can strike areas that don't require much power to cause damage.

Some of the practitioners are fast and have substantial power--its not as though praying mantis practitioners have no power. One I observed training a friend of mine had both speed and effective striking power [Zhang Wei Fu, Taiji Meihua Praying Mantis}

I wonder if there is some way to train that results in the optimal combination of power and speed?

[Subitai]

I'm going to try to answer your question but i'm surprised as good as a grappler as you are...that you're asking this question?

If I want to use a standard type hip throw...do I just try to rush in and attempt to throw him? No, it won't work good that way and if you could do that, then your opponent just plain suks anyway.

The best way is to set him up....that's the way people with experience will do it. I'm sure someone with your experience agrees with me?


As for Taiji...same thing. The best way is to set up your opponent so that they are either off balance or they are overextended... and because there is a small time gap before they recover, then you have a chance to issue power.

I know how to do it and I can do it...fairly consistently. This is for sure MY preferred way to approach this problem and from what i've seen how most advanced people tackle it as well.

If it was just a trade of attempted blows then for sure that is low level thinking.


I've said this many times before..."Speed is only a perception of distance".

* If I start from far or long distance then yes I must be very fast but the closer I start from it is a different story.

Look at 2 heavy weight boxers fighting from about 10 rows back in the stands and they don't seem very fast. But stand in front of one and it makes all the difference in the world how fast he seems.

In most kung fu styles there are movements that I call primary (meaning they move along quicker beats of time) and secondary (usually slower and work better after a bridge is made for example)

Most people run into problems because they havn't figured this out and are using methods that they don't fully understand in the wrong usage.

My opinion. "O"

[YouKnowWho]

Thought about this for some time--how much power do you really need to be effective?
Agree!. 50 lbs force on the nose or 100 lbs force on the nose don't make much different.


The best way is to set him up....

I totally agree that the "set up" can be use to "full compress". Here is a simple example. If you have right leg forward and left hand forward (I'll call this "cross stance"), you are ready to deliver that powerful right punch anytime you want to. Your fighting stance is your "full compression".

I don't thing speed is that critical for the grappling art. When you use your leg to bite on your opponent's leading leg, you have to wait for him to pull that leading leg back so you can attack his back leg. If you move too fast that his weight is still on his leading leg when you attack his back leg, your speed won't mean anything.

[Kellen Bassette]

There is always a trade off between speed and power. Some teach that speed=power, but this really is not the case in a combat scenario.

Jab and cross are the classic scenario, fast sets up strong. Both should be trained for their proper context. Jab, back fist, snap kick are fast, they open the door for power....cross, hook, round kick, thrust kick....we need both.

[Jimbo]

I don't remember that we have discussed this subject before or not. It's a very important subject anyway.

This is the general MA trade off issue. The praying mantis is very fast but the power is not all there.

This is why in the

- intermediate training stage, you want to use your body to push/pull your limbs. This way you can generate the maximum amount of power.
- advance training stage, you want to use your body to chase your limbs. This way you can generate the maximum amount of speed.

Here is a simple test. When a mosquito flies in front of you and you want to smash that mosquito, will you use your body to push your hand, or will you let your body to chase your hand? Which part of your body will move first? This is a good example that you want to achieve the maximum speed, but you have to sacrifice some of your power.

Since all TCMA styles will involve with power generation and speed generation issue, what's your opinion on this?

Very interesting subject, and some good points you make.

Different things for different purposes.

I know this might upset or annoy some, because this subject is regarding TCMA, but possibly the greatest example of the combination of both speed (incredible speed) and outstanding power for all to see was the prime Mike Tyson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xIi86hUOos&sns=em

Of course, he was a freak of nature. But he understood when to turn on his full speed and/or full power, and when not to. He embodied many of the TCMA principles very clearly, even though he didn't use the terminology.

In addition, sometimes a change of speed and/or rhythm can throw off even a much quicker opponent.

[Rover]

Hitting fast better than a pao blow if you going on deadly point like neck.
Otherwise pao would be better.

[Yum Cha]

Speed to set up and injure, power to finish.
If you strike with accuracy, you need less power.

I also beiieve that SPM like Pak Mei, doesn't chamber the fist, they strike from in front of the body. Hands are closer, less telegraph, greater perception of speed.

[xinyidizi]

@YKW: I think you are not very familiar with XYLH. Speed training and quick small frame combos are an essential part of XYLH after the basics are mastered.

[YouKnowWho]

@YKW: I think you are not very familiar with XYLH. Speed training and quick small frame combos are an essential part of XYLH after the basics are mastered.

I'm not! XYLH is a style that I would love to cross train. The speed is a relative term and not an absolute term.

[YouKnowWho]

This is one of my favor power generation drills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XMhfuDJgo0

[-N-]

This is one of my favor power generation drills.


Do body striking on the heavy bag.

[YouKnowWho]

Do body striking on the heavy bag.

That's one of my heavy bag drills as well. I may not put all my power on my 1st punch (cross), but I do try to put all my power on my 2nd punch (jab - not sure jab is a proper term for it).

[mooyingmantis]

In mantis, power is relative. The two dominant striking areas are the eyes and the groin, Neither require much power, but both require great speed. Mantis is primarily a point striking art. We are not just trying to hit "something", we are aiming at specific points (8 hit, 8 no hit). So precision is important.

I emphasize gaining power by increasing speed.

If you practice in a school that emphasizes punching "to the head" or "to the body", rather than specific points on both, power comes much more into play. Lack of precision requires more power to get the same disabling effect.

[mooyingmantis]

This is one of my favor power generation drills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XMhfuDJgo0

Very "baji" of you! :) If baji can be used as an adjective, of course.

[-N-]

That's one of my heavy bag drills as well. I may not put all my power on my 1st punch (cross), but I do try to put all my power on my 2nd punch (jab - not sure jab is a proper term for it).

I meant hit the heavy bag with the body using coiling sinking explosive force.

If the core body power is there, then the other techniques will have power.

Plus you train closing in all the way which benefits both striking and throwing.

Also good for conditioning.

[bawang]

everybody look fast and snappy and crisp doing the forms until they hit a bag. then they slow down.

[mooyingmantis]

Here is a great mix of speed and power from my kung fu older brother James Rogers. James mixes Bajiquan with his Mantis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qgu8mpn2-4c

[YouKnowWho]

everybody look fast and snappy and crisp doing the forms until they hit a bag. then they slow down.

There is a big difference between striking into the thin air vs. striking on a solid object. This is why for those who work on heavy bags, they don't talk much about power and speed.

When you were

- young, if you don't search for extreme power and extreme speed, your were never young.
- older, if you still search for extreme power and extreme speed, your haven't grown up yet.

When you get older, you will truly understand that a woman who is

- pretty,
- rich,
- cook well, and
- good in bed,

just doesn't exist.

[PalmStriker]

In mantis, power is relative. The two dominant striking areas are the eyes and the groin, Neither require much power, but both require great speed. Mantis is primarily a point striking art. We are not just trying to hit "something", we are aiming at specific points (8 hit, 8 no hit). So precision is important.

I emphasize gaining power by increasing speed.

If you practice in a school that emphasizes punching "to the head" or "to the body", rather than specific points on both, power comes much more into play. Lack of precision requires more power to get the same disabling effect.
Have to agree. :)

[PalmStriker]

Speed to set up and injure, power to finish.
If you strike with accuracy, you need less power.

I also beiieve that SPM like Pak Mei, doesn't chamber the fist, they strike from in front of the body. Hands are closer, less telegraph, greater perception of speed. Agree with this. :)

[PalmStriker]

There is a big difference between striking into the thin air vs. striking on a solid object. This is why for those who work on heavy bags, they don't talk much about power and speed.

When you were

- young, if you don't search for extreme power and extreme speed, your were never young.
- older, if you still search for extreme power and extreme speed, your haven't grown up yet.

When you get older, you will truly understand that a woman who is

- pretty,
- rich,
- cook well, and
- good in bed,

just doesn't exist. Well, she might not be able to cook. :D

[Yum Cha]

When you get older, you will truly understand that a woman who is

- pretty,
- rich,
- cook well, and
- good in bed,

just doesn't exist.

Right, so you need one of each.

[Jimbo]

There is a big difference between striking into the thin air vs. striking on a solid object. This is why for those who work on heavy bags, they don't talk much about power and speed.

You need both. Though it's more important to be able to strike solid targets, hitting air is good to practice recovery from a missed strike. Different muscles are used hitting air vs hitting pads vs hitting a heavy bag.

**To add:
In addition, IMO, quickness is more important than raw speed, especially as you get older. I don't care how good you are, when you're 60 or 70, you are not going to be as fast as an athletically fast 20 year old. But quickness is the ability to perceive/act/react decisively, now...with as little wasted motion as possible. There is a subtle difference between quickness and just being fast, though quickness obviously still requires speed.

[YouKnowWho]

At 0.43, we can see that Bruce Lee expended his left shoulder forward 1st before he twisted his body and punch out his right hand. His jab (compress) may be slow, but his cross (release) can be fast and powerful. Sometime we just pay attention on his cross (release) and say that speed and power can be obtained at the same time. We have ignored that his power and speed came from his left jab (compression) which require time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyrd2L0zt3w

[LaRoux]

I don't remember that we have discussed this subject before or not. It's a very important subject anyway.

This is the general MA trade off issue. The praying mantis is very fast but the power is not all there.

Praying Mantis Kung Fu - Brendan Lai Meihua Quan - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOvO5L6VjSc)

The Baji is very powerful but the speed is not all there.

Baji quan--Adam Hsu - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OqWUFOtIHc)

The reason is simple. If you compress to the maximum and then release, you will generate the maximum amount of power. Unfortunately in combat, you don't have that luxury to obtain a full "compression".

If you look at Chenyu's and CXW's power generation. It takes them about 1 second to generate power for each of their strikes. That 1 second is just too slow in normal combat.

Chen taiji quan fajin by Chenyu 陈�太�拳 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_vcWq2GYXs)

https://myspace.com/431083890/video/cxw-fajin-techniques/330713

Even the XingYi Liu He system, the power generation is still to slow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcqQ9KhMYFY

By comparing the most famous power generation systems in TCMA, the Baji, Chen Taiji, and XingYi Liu He, none of them can match with the speed generated in the praying mantis system.

This is why in the

- intermediate training stage, you want to use your body to push/pull your limbs. This way you can generate the maximum amount of power.
- advance training stage, you want to use your body to chase your limbs. This way you can generate the maximum amount of speed.

Here is a simple test. When a mosquito flies in front of you and you want to smash that mosquito, will you use your body to push your hand, or will you let your body to chase your hand? Which part of your body will move first? This is a good example that you want to achieve the maximum speed, but you have to sacrifice some of your power.

Since all TCMA styles will involve with power generation and speed generation issue, what's your opinion on this?

None of those things have anything to do with generating power against and external object like an opponent.

[LaRoux]

At 0.43, we can see that Bruce Lee expended his left shoulder forward 1st before he twisted his body and punch out his right hand. His jab (compress) may be slow, but his cross (release) can be fast and powerful. Sometime we just pay attention on his cross (release) and say that speed and power can be obtained at the same time. We have ignored that his power and speed came from his left jab (compression) which require time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyrd2L0zt3w

Last time I checked, that was a movie. You can't use someone acting in a movie to analyze using power/speed in a realistic manner.

[WC1277]

Last time I checked, that was a movie. You can't use someone acting in a movie to analyze using power/speed in a realistic manner.

Regardless of it being a movie, he has a point. Good WC power generation works the same way. An equal rotation of forces generates significantly more power by creating essentially a solid object in motion.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

My answer is "Who Cares"

If you have to rely on speed and strength, you did something really wrong.

Back when I was doing Shuai Jiao, the saying was "position is stronger than strength, and faster than speed" ;)

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

When you get older, you will truly understand that a woman who is

- pretty,
- rich,
- cook well, and
- good in bed,

just doesn't exist.

I had one who was very beautiful, not rich, but a fantastic cook and simply unbelievable in bed! I mean like WOW!!!

she was bonkers bat S#!t Crazy with a demonic temper though... :(

[18elders]

there are a few different points. first of all not all mantis styles are the same. they are different from hong kong to the north of the mainland and taiwan.
so the original statement can not be made for all mantis styles. some put more power and jing into their movement than others along with more waist movement.
second force equals weight X speed so your force generated can be increased by the speed of your strikes.
then the physics behind your strikes, unfortunately, there are many that don't even know how to punch correctly or generate power correctly over even do a stance correctly so a lot comes into play.

a bullet won't kill you if i throw it at you, it will kill you if i shoot it at you. the speed increases generating more force.

not just in mantis but it should be in all martial arts, there is a reason for each type of strike, how and why it is used and it's speed or power. if not, then you only need to learn one strike as they would all be the same.

[YouKnowWho]

Again, when a mosquito flies in front of you and you want to smash that mosquito, will you use your body to push your hand, or will you let your body to chase your hand? Which part of your body will move first? Why?

[18elders]

the clips you mention in the beginning are just forms, they are not fighting so of course it isn't going to take them that much time to perform their technique, the important part is they know how to generate the power when they need it. movements in forms are not always the same as applying them.

i would let your mosquito land on me, then i could crush it with enjoyment and not need much power or speed, strategy.

also different muscles come into play for power and speed, each one of us are different, some will be quicker than others, some will have more power than others, depends on our body.
a cheetah is build for speed, but it lacks power, a lion is more powerful but lacks the speed of a cheetah. if a lion gets hold of the cheetah it is the end for the cheetah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXfDrPs1CIE

[bawang]

in longfist its important to mix slow and fast. this way you have no rhythm.

if u just lower ur hand ur opponent doesnt take the bait. if u punch slow they think they have easy counter.

[mooyingmantis]

there are a few different points. first of all not all mantis styles are the same. they are different from hong kong to the north of the mainland and taiwan.

Very true!

[Kellen Bassette]

in longfist its important to mix slow and fast. this way you have no rhythm.

if u just lower ur hand ur opponent doesnt take the bait. if u punch slow they think they have easy counter.

This is so true and gets overlooked a lot because it is so natural to fall into a rhythm during training and even sparring. I have to consciously force myself to not fall into a rhythm with bag and pad training. I think conscious, drastic changes in the tempo of sparring is also a good training tool.