How does punching a sheet of paper work?

[IronFist]

I've heard hanging a sheet of paper by something heavy like (relatively) light chain and punching it is supposed to build snap in your punches, right?

Tell me all you know on this subject, and how to practice it.

Thanks,

Iron

[yenhoi]

There are several threads in the training section about building punching speed.

The goal is to just barely touch the paper, while still transfering the energy of your punch. You dont punch through the paper, you whip it.

strike!

[yenhoi]

remember that, or your training nothing.

strike!

[IronFist]

Ok guys, but the search engine isn't working...

Does anyone want to be really nice and post a link to the previously mentioned thread(s)????

:)

Iron

[MonkeySlap Too]

It works pretty good.The paper never got a chance to hit me back!

"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

[LEGEND]

This is something Bruce Lee was experimenting with...I would suggest ignoring this device and buying a double end ball.

A

[straight blast]

Something we used to do all the time (and I'm not sure that it's the same thing) is one person would hold a piece of newspaper up & stretch it to the point of breaking. The other person would then have to "snap" their punch as hard as they could into the paper, stopping it with just a touch of the paper. If you broke the paper, you got pushups. The paper breaks really easy, but it is a really good exercise for gaining control at high speed. It always scares people that when we're sparring I can stop a full speed full power punch about half a centimetre from their nose. I think it's a good learning tool. :cool:

"Pain is merely weakness leaving the body"

[IronFist]

bump

[Crimson Phoenix]

No, no, do not ignore it!! Actually, this french book I often tell you about (check an old thread about reptilian brain) advocates it as one of the best methods of developping strikes that can be used for vital points striking (and moreover, for strikes so sudden the mind has troubles computing it).
Do not hang it with a chain, hang it with a light wire, just some wool or cotton wire will be good...it's better when it's light, because it actually makes the paper more mobile, hence the exercise more difficult...the whole point about this exercise is to develop a strike that is so fast and focused that it actually pierces the sheet of paper...to do this, there 2 paramount things: 1)speed, which implies relaxation and also very important no parasite movements, you have to develop a strike with no warnings, no set up a strike that pops out of you like you weren't thinking about it...all your attention must be inside the target to the point that you have no attention left for the strike, and the blow seems to come out unconsciously.
2)precision, which has to do also with your mental focus on the target and the purity of your movement, with no parasite moves and no intellectual control (pure reptilian brain move, like you were burnt by a cigarette).
Dang, I will eventually manage to pierce the **** paper...it's funny, but you really realize the importance of "no intellect" in the stuff when you fail all the time while trying your best, and the one time your pierce the paper is out of frustration when you throw a move you don't think about and don't believe in...just like when you nonchalantly throw a basketball over your shoulder and score a perfect 3 points without paying attention and then when, surprised, you try to do it again consciously you miss all the time. Actually, the hard part is to reproduce all the time the piercing, that means to reproduce all the time the physical and mental state necessary for your strike to be fast and precise enough: as long as you think about it, as long as you WANT to pierce the **** paper you'll fail...
It'ss a great martial lesson, the best moves are those that pop out like you didn't want to do them, while if you really want to place a particular move, you'll get nailed.
The best techniques to use on the sheet of paper are the phoenix eye fist an the crane beak (spelling?? heheheh)...that will work your snapping power in the wrist and elbow, and also shoulder power...
for the phoenix eye fist, it is easier to start with a sideways one, with the sheet of paper hanging on your side (I find the front one much more difficult), and for the crane beak, just arme it next to your ear or start from a natural position with your arm hanging loose...
Just some thoughts, and keep practicing because it is not easy at ALL.
Actually if there wasn't that wonderful feeling of surprise and amazement here and then when you manage to pierce it, this exercise would feel very dumb and useless...
Take care and good training!

[IronFist]

That's the kind of response I was looking for. Thanks a lot.

btw, you spelled "beak" right :)

Iron

[KC Elbows]

I know a printer who's mastered the three hole punch.

He can do a whole phonebook at one time. ;)

City, your toast will never go unbuttered again! -The Tic

[blaktiger]

Haa haa haa, KC.

But seriously, the objective, Crimson et al, is to NOT pierce the paper with your strike?

I personally use a lot of whip hands, backfists, and snake strikes in my system. How will I be able to improve punching speed with this paper exercise?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I'll be too busy lookin' good!"

[Crimson Phoenix]

Not to pierce it? What's the point? When you punch someone, is your objective not to hurt him?? Breaking the paper (I repeat: attached to a very light wire, so unless the strike is extremely focussed and violent the paper and string will just anihilate the energy) is the sign that your strike was good...I could do punches all day on a sheet without piercing it.
The objective IS to pierce, if I want not to pierce it I just do a dumb longfist punch on it (I myself am a longfist exponent before everyone starts getting heated), it will never pierce the paper...
Tiger, this exercise will benefit your speed because it is the paramount factor in the drill...I also heard many times that it is the crucial exercize to develop pressure point striking...here are some conclusions: a backfist will NEVER pierce it (unless you hit with just one knuckle and you are a gong fu wonder), nobody ever did pressure point striking with backfists (it's more a hammer than a needle).
Snake strikes? I don't know much about them but surely some strikes in snake will definitely be good to pierce the sheet.
Whip hand? I don't know, I'm not sure of what a "whip hand" is (aren't there several versions?).
Maybe it wasn't clear in my post but this exercise cannot be done with every strike, only certain ones will pierce the paper: the more muscular strikes, the ones drilling instead of whipping, and the strikes with a striking surface too large will NOT pierce tha paper
It is a very fun exercise, but can get very frustrating...

[This message was edited by Crimson Phoenix on 11-17-01 at 11:57 AM.]

[Sharky]

IF the idea was to just hit the paper lightly, you could do it with just a (punch)bag, and just tap it, non? the idea is to use whipping power/speed to rip the paper.

=================================
Sharky, I should expect this level of immaturity from you after seeing your post titled "Hm." regarding the woman that lives next door to you. I think everyone who unfortuneatly read that post is a bit more ignorant now for doing so. - Spectre

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[IronFist]

I think what Straight Blast meant was that the NOT breaking the paper drill was to teach control so you don't bust up your sparring opponent's face.

Iron

[Sharky]

yeah he was, and i was just saying it'd be a whole lot easier to practice it on a bag or even just a plain wall!

=================================
Sharky, I should expect this level of immaturity from you after seeing your post titled "Hm." regarding the woman that lives next door to you. I think everyone who unfortuneatly read that post is a bit more ignorant now for doing so. - Spectre

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[IronFist]

Nice sig. Sounds like Spectre really likes you, eh Sharky?

Iron

[Shinakira]

it doesn't help at all.. you have been watching master of the 36th chamber.

don't let movie mithology confuse the real thing.

there are smarter and less time consuming ways to increase speed, accuracy, form, and technique then punching paper..

if this was a good idea, more martial artists would have stacks and stacks of paper at there house.. and believe me there is no paper shortage buddy..

"oh your tough... But can you kick my ass!"
god bless all*

[SevenStar]

you don't want to pierce the paper at all. A similar exercise was told me me by someone as a way to build speed, only he suggested using a styrofoam cup. hang it from a piece of string and throw strikes at it, without touching it. If your speed is right, then when your fist returns, the cup should swing toward the direction your fist came from. Hopefully that wasn't too hard to follow. It was just a quick explanation. the old poison hand practitioners relied on speed, and from what I heard, practiced this exercise with rice paper.

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

[Sharky]

me and spectre have " conflicting views "

seem to be ****ing a lot of people off on here lately.

Good stuff.

=================================
Sharky, I should expect this level of immaturity from you after seeing your post titled "Hm." regarding the woman that lives next door to you. I think everyone who unfortuneatly read that post is a bit more ignorant now for doing so. - Spectre

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Wongsifu]

all this reptilian brain stuff is cool , you know what crimson talks about when he says that thinking about hitting it wont beable to pierce it but when you use reptilian brain and do it as a reaction......
I found out a while back the reason this happens is because when you think about what you are doing it blocks the energy flow, when you just let it be, the energy flows and pierces the paper...
oh well ..

ps sharky thats what one of my teachers said, you wanna learn how to time correctly and stop your strikes and leanr about distancing in general go and punch the wall full speed and stop a couple of mm from the wall. if you dont do it right you get automatic punishment you dont need me ther efor that

:D

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[Crimson Phoenix]

It's not mythology, this exercise was demonstrated to me by a 75 year old karate practicionner (who also happens to practice taiji but is veery secretive about it) with several sheets of paper hung all around him at different levels...in a few seconds he managed to hit every sheet of paper with a big clapping sound, leaving each one of them pierced...the guy knows what he's talking about he brought karate to Europe, worked with famous ninja Fujita Saiko on secret japanese pressure point charts (that were tested on prisonners of war by a special section) and earned his 5th dan back in the days by fighting Yoshinao Nanbu (back in the days when dans meant fighting). He know his the only non japanese 10th dan (even if he officially says he's 9th dan), and met many chinese masters who he learnt from (but as I said he's rather secretive about his chinese training).
After seeing his stuff, I cannot doubt the usefulness of the drill.
And yes, Wongsifu, you got exactly what I wanted to say.
Finally, you might disagree with me but from what I have been taught (including the stuff this karate man told me), punching a sheet of paper not to hit it and acquire control while sparring is eventually a bad thing: you may develop the habit of stopping your blows when you should not...of course, your training partners are your buddies and their physical integrity is a primary concern, but it's all a mind's game and wether you spar lightly or strong, you should ALWAYS have the intention of killing your opponent and driving the blow as deep as you can, it's the only way to condition your mind for full fighting with no holding back.
Once again it is just my opinion, feel free to disagree.
And Shinakira, no, I have never seen 36th chambers but if must be pretty cool if they do it in the movie...are you the new authority on what is mythology and what is "the real thing"? Can you pierce the paper? Since you have the certitude that there are smarter techniques and less "time consuming" (it doesn't take me too long to hang a paper, really), it must mean that you really master the subject, right?
Talk is cheap...and since I wouldn't advise anything I wouldn't do, I will now stop talking and try to pierce the **** paper :cool:

[dedalus]

Gretings again Crimson Phoenix :)

I'm becomming more and more interested in this book of yours... can you post the reference so that I might track down a copy? My French isn't the best, but I might plod through slowly over the summer break (which is just about to begin down here).

Your posts always strike me as insightful. Hope to keep hearing from you.

[Crimson Phoenix]

Dedalus, pleasure to talk with you again...how are your researches and Jiang bagua going on??
Here are the refs of the book:
"l'Art Sublime et Ultime des Points Vitaux" by Henry Plée and Fujita Saiko.
Usually you could get it from www.amazon.fr (http://www.amazon.fr) but they seem to be out of stock, or maybe the book is undergoing a new edition...there is a big MA store in Paris called Budostore (www.budostore.fr (http://www.budostore.fr)) that might ship it to you but their site is under reconstruction...however I know them well and can ask if they can ship stuffs to Australia and at what rate...in this case I could also ask them how you can pay them.
In case you want to see how the book looks like, go to http://www.budo.fr/livres/pv.jpg (www.budo.fr (http://www.budo.fr) is the site of the editor...maybe you can order directly from them??).
I also heard YMAA was supposed to publish it, but I haven't heard about that in a long time...
If you can track down a copy, you won't regret it, honestly...it's an incredible book filled with little stories (H. Plee is great and always has enlightening lil' stories!). Just the part with the pressure point charts of old japanese and some chinese schools is a treasure, but the rest of the book is even better to me!!
Take care, I'll contact you here or somewhere else when I get the infos from budostore...and search for it, this book is well worth it!!

Phoenix

[dedalus]

Merci bien!