Wing Chun Interactions, the key to individual expression

[LoneTiger108]

http://youtu.be/fdoLRkMEbDQ

Now I can't say that I am a fan of Shaun Obasi, I don't know much about him or the MMA World he comes from, but I do hold a little respect for students of Wing Chun that actually put themselves out to meet, exchange and learn from others outside their lineage so hat's off to him for that.

In his latest compilation clip he shows highlights of some (if not all?) his public and private clips that show the 'interactive character' of quite a wide variety of teachers and peers. Albeit, he doesn't seem to have researched my own lineage I find it a great snapshot of where some lineages are at today and it is quite easy to pick out their individualty from these short clips. Personally I would prefer to meet someone who had elements of all the personalities here!!! And I thought it may lead to a neat discussion...

So, in a nutshell, do you think that our interactive platform allows for personal expression? Or are we all supposed to be only following one way? If so, which way do you find the better example from this compilation and why?

[GlennR]

So, in a nutshell, do you think that our interactive platform allows for personal expression? Or are we all supposed to be only following one way? If so, which way do you find the better example from this compilation and why?

Ofcourse it does, look at Bayer and Botzebe, different approach but both very effective.

And the girl at the end wasnt bad either

[LFJ]

It was an arm wrestling compilation until it got to Bayer, then went to a slap fest at the end. Basically, Bayer showed him how it's not a game of feely arms like the rest of them do.

[GlennR]

It was an arm wrestling compilation until it got to Bayer, then went to a slap fest at the end. Basically, Bayer showed him how it's not a game of feely arms like the rest of them do.

I think botzepe looked far from shabby

[LFJ]

I think botzepe looked far from shabby

Well, most of that was him showing and explaining things. Obasi didn't really do much but offer his arms.

[guy b.]

Agree with LFJ, most of these were very poor with Bayer being the only exception. Don't understand the point of most of what these people are doing.

[Hendrik]

Pb excellently play with momentum and open up lines in in the inner gate play. Which makes a big difference in skill . Chisau is for momentum and lines open play but it evolves into a different things these days.

[guy b.]

In Wslpbvt chi sao is a learning environment.....In other lineages it seems to be an ego driven pi$$ing contest.

You can see with Philipp, Shawn is being taught and helped.
With the others its the usual two handed arm wrestling proving ground :rolleyes:

Crazy to see some of the guys were actually concerned with "winning" chi sau vs shawn obassi

[Wayfaring]

Crazy to see some of the guys were actually concerned with "winning" chi sau vs shawn obassi

Crazy to see how many people on this forum are actually concerned with who looked like they were winning against obassi.

[Hendrik]

One doesn't have much to teach if one doesn't know the game of momentum , force changes, and inner line game, those are the core of Wck chi sau, instead of the common seen arm wrestling game. Especially Vesus a bigger or stronger physical or athletic person.



Crazy to see some of the guys were actually concerned with "winning" chi sau vs shawn obassi

[guy b.]

Crazy to see how many people on this forum are actually concerned with who looked like they were winning against obassi.

I agree, the forum would be great if nobody replied to threads with their opinions. Oh wait..

[LaRoux]

http://youtu.be/fdoLRkMEbDQ

Now I can't say that I am a fan of Shaun Obasi, I don't know much about him or the MMA World he comes from, but I do hold a little respect for students of Wing Chun that actually put themselves out to meet, exchange and learn from others outside their lineage so hat's off to him for that.

In his latest compilation clip he shows highlights of some (if not all?) his public and private clips that show the 'interactive character' of quite a wide variety of teachers and peers. Albeit, he doesn't seem to have researched my own lineage I find it a great snapshot of where some lineages are at today and it is quite easy to pick out their individualty from these short clips. Personally I would prefer to meet someone who had elements of all the personalities here!!! And I thought it may lead to a neat discussion...

So, in a nutshell, do you think that our interactive platform allows for personal expression? Or are we all supposed to be only following one way? If so, which way do you find the better example from this compilation and why?

The only example I see here is that WC people spend way too much time doing something (chi sao) that has very little to do with unarmed combat.

[Vajramusti]

Using the now common guideline-10,ooo hours on mastering a complex skill
any ideas on WSL or his best students on their traing times?

Ho Kam Ming= with IP Man-intense period-all day- 7 years all day.

[tc101]

Using the now common guideline-10,ooo hours on mastering a complex skill
any ideas on WSL or his best students on their traing times?

Ho Kam Ming= with IP Man-intense period-all day- 7 years all day.

Oh hear we go with another one. 7 years all day long and you believe that do you?

It is funny how people use everything but actual performance of the skill itself to support why someone is skillful. Some have the best idea, some spent the most time with their instructor, some think they have the right DNA, what's next?

[lance]

http://youtu.be/fdoLRkMEbDQ

Now I can't say that I am a fan of Shaun Obasi, I don't know much about him or the MMA World he comes from, but I do hold a little respect for students of Wing Chun that actually put themselves out to meet, exchange and learn from others outside their lineage so hat's off to him for that.

In his latest compilation clip he shows highlights of some (if not all?) his public and private clips that show the 'interactive character' of quite a wide variety of teachers and peers. Albeit, he doesn't seem to have researched my own lineage I find it a great snapshot of where some lineages are at today and it is quite easy to pick out their individualty from these short clips. Personally I would prefer to meet someone who had elements of all the personalities here!!! And I thought it may lead to a neat discussion...

So, in a nutshell, do you think that our interactive platform allows for personal expression? Or are we all supposed to be only following one way? If so, which way do you find the better example from this compilation and why?

LoneTiger108 , I agree with you on your topic , it 's true , if you learn from the sifus who learned from Ip Man themselves and their disciples , you have the chances of learning something different from what each sifu under Ip Man himself has to offer , so it ' s good . It ' s good to learn different ideas from different sifus under Ip Man and use it to your advantages . If you stick to just one sifu or disciple you ' ll only learn one way of doing WC , but if you learn from all of Ip Mans' sifus and disciples then you ' re open up to learning different ways or ideas of doing WC .

On the other hand if you don ' t meet anybody who trained with all of Ip Mans' sifus or disciples , then maybe you ' ll have to learn and train under all of Ip Mans' Sifu or disciples yourself . So maybe you should do it already . Well , its only through experiences and training you can really upgrade your own training in Wc right ? You just need to really invest the money .

[LFJ]

In Wslpbvt chi sao is a learning environment.....In other lineages it seems to be an ego driven pi$$ing contest.

You can see with Philipp, Shawn is being taught and helped.
With the others its the usual two handed arm wrestling proving ground :rolleyes:

Chi-sau is developmental unique to each lineage. For that reason no one should chi-sau with others outside their lineage, because neither understands the other's method. It just becomes, as you say, a proving ground.

If they want to test their skills against other lineages, their testing ground should be in free sparring. Unfortunately, free sparring seems to be very rarely done in most Wing Chun lineages. Chi-sau is king.

[BPWT]

You can see with Philipp, Shawn is being taught and helped.
With the others its the usual two handed arm wrestling proving ground

To be fair, Boztepe was talking throughout the clip shown, showing and explaining.

[GlennR]

Chi-sau is developmental unique to each lineage. For that reason no one should chi-sau with others outside their lineage, because neither understands the other's method. It just becomes, as you say, a proving ground.


What a load of nonsense, thats like saying boxers from different gyms shouldnt hold pads for eachother


If they want to test their skills against other lineages, their testing ground should be in free sparring. Unfortunately, free sparring seems to be very rarely done in most Wing Chun lineages. Chi-sau is king.


Ive had great experiences with schools comparing techniques, ideas , power generation, footwork and son on without having to spar.

Thats a limited view you have

[Paddington]

Chi-sau is developmental unique to each lineage. For that reason no one should chi-sau with others outside their lineage, because neither understands the other's method. It just becomes, as you say, a proving ground. [...]

I don't know. I have been lucky in that I have, now, been able to chi sau with people from many different lineages. Our dispositions have all been very positive and the only trouble or difficulty in chi sau we have experienced, has been the fact that we do it differently and some translation has to occur before it becomes a mutual conversation.

[LoneTiger108]

So looking at the posts am I right in thinking that most of you can identify lineage through watching students practise Chisau?

I know we all have differences but it would be interesting to hear if anyone has written a summary of each lineages characteristics, and as there are clearly variations within a lineage has anyone written a comparison?

It would be great if Shaun himself has documented his own opinions of his experiences but maybe we could work on something here with contributions by everyone.

[k gledhill]

So looking at the posts am I right in thinking that most of you can identify lineage through watching students practise Chisau?

I know we all have differences but it would be interesting to hear if anyone has written a summary of each lineages characteristics, and as there are clearly variations within a lineage has anyone written a comparison?

It would be great if Shaun himself has documented his own opinions of his experiences but maybe we could work on something here with contributions by everyone.

Should all be the same.

[LoneTiger108]

Should all be the same.

Kinda what I thought when I was training with Sifu and had never seen anyone else! But the facts are right in front of us. We are not the same so what is the best way forward?

If there are massive positives to all interactions we see, and negatives too of course, what would the ultimate 'blended' interaction actually look and feel like?

Just on a question spree of late and as a student and journeyman I would want to read a bit of decent research on this type of subject rather than participate in all the craziness and negativity I have seen more of lately :(

[LoneTiger108]

Hmmm... Maybe I should have started this thread saying that ALL the interactions of Chisau in the clip are WRONG and that I have the only true complete Wing Chun interaction that nobody has even seen yet :)

Seems that a decent discussion is impossible these days...

[LFJ]

I don't know. I have been lucky in that I have, now, been able to chi sau with people from many different lineages. Our dispositions have all been very positive and the only trouble or difficulty in chi sau we have experienced, has been the fact that we do it differently and some translation has to occur before it becomes a mutual conversation.

All I have to say is people need to quit chi-sauing and get out there and spar or actually fight. If it's all about chi-sau and when you meet another WC practitioner you say hey let's chi-sau then it just becomes your favorite game. You're goal is just to get better at chi-sau and you lose sight of the real goal of training; fight survival. WC is then no longer a fighting method.

Chi-sau is a mutual developmental tool used in training within your lineage to train the fighting skills your lineage seeks to develop. There's no point in doing the drill with someone who has completely different thinking, lest it become a competitive game or just something fun to do.

WC practitioners from other lineages should first say hey let's spar/fight like meeting anyone from any other martial art. But I kind of fear no one actually knows what that is.

[LoneTiger108]

Chi-sau is a mutual developmental tool used in training within your lineage to train the fighting skills your lineage seeks to develop. There's no point in doing the drill with someone who has completely different thinking, lest it become a competitive game or just something fun to do.

Forgetting the 'fight' for a second, I was always of the belief that Wing Chun Chisau, as it is generally practised from Ip Man and others, was designed for students to play and search for answers in a non-competitive and fun way.

Agreed sparring is a different animal, and so is fighting, which both benefit from Chisau practise when trained well enough, but I was really looking for input here from people who can actually appreciate our signature and speciality.

Why is there so much difference in all of us and does this mean we are all missing something of the bigger picture? After all, it is accepted by the majority I reckon that we can only truly learn and exchange, as Wing Chun students and teachers, from 'touching hands'. Right?

[Grumblegeezer]

....After all, it is accepted by the majority I reckon that we can only truly learn and exchange, as Wing Chun students and teachers, from 'touching hands'. Right?

It depends less on lineage than the personality and ego of the person you choose to train with. With the right person it can work fine. Attitude is everything.

[LoneTiger108]

It depends less on lineage than the personality and ego of the person you choose to train with. With the right person it can work fine. Attitude is everything.

Well said.

It's just that looking through this forum and seeing even further debates on things like Facebook you would think that everybody wants Wing Chun to be divided into little lineage boxes for everyone to identify and talk sh1t about lol!

Now I'm a lineage type guy, I appreciate my heritage in that way, loyal to only one teacher too, but it doesn't make me automatically look for the negatives in everything I see, in fact quite the opposite.

I see many good things with the original clip on the thread, minus certain attitudes. So I guess nobody has the answers for me here. Everybody is happy being so divided?

[LFJ]

So I guess nobody has the answers for me here. Everybody is happy being so divided?

I am happy to consider different lineages to be indeed different systems. While sharing the same form names and whatnot, they can be so different in execution and interpretation that they may as well be different martial art systems altogether. That's not just me wanting to be divisive. That's just the way it is.

[LoneTiger108]

I am happy to consider different lineages to be indeed different systems. While sharing the same form names and whatnot, they can be so different in execution and interpretation that they may as well be different martial art systems altogether. That's not just me wanting to be divisive. That's just the way it is.

And I understand this, which brings me back to the Title of this Thread...

So, on review it isn't just about the interactive platforms being a key to individual expression, we seem to have individual expression of all the forms too :eek: then we will have individual expression of the equipment and weaponry we use right? :eek::eek:

What a mess :eek::eek::eek: