曲破直(Qu Po Zhi) - curve defeat straight

[YouKnowWho]

We all know that the straight line is fast. We also know that curve can cover more area. If your opponent uses jab, cross combo at you, all you need is to

- Move your back leg to spin your body to be outside of his striking path.
- Use a 45 degree downward "haymaker" in front of you.
- If your opponent moves in slow, your haymaker may knock his jab and cross down.
- If your opponent moves in fast, your haymaker may knock on the back of his head and drop him.

Here are some short clips for "haymaker". I won't call it "hook punch" because the striking area may be your forearm instead of your fist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYw9Q3Eti5A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBktyN-aiNI

Have you ever done this before? What's your successful rate on this?

[Golden Arms]

I have used the overhand on a 45 downwards many times, both in Hung Gar training as well as San Shou (it mapped over quite nicely). It is a great movement and one that became so natural I stopped training it as much because it made my training partners too gun-shy about coming in and attacking. I agree that using it as you angle off is extremely effective. Another nice feature of this movement is that it tends to come over top of the guard if the person manages to get their hands up.

[YouKnowWho]

I'm surprise that this general discussion thread didn't go well. Let's use the following clip as an example. If you introduce right and left haymaker into this clip, what will happen?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1DNhGr5UmM&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYw9Q3Eti5A

My question is, you may not like to use haymaker, but you can't assume that your opponent won't use it on you. Why didn't you include it as part of your training? IMO, the "forward pressure" works well if haymaker is not involved. When haymaker is involved, everything change.

Your thought?

[Frost]

I'm surprise that this general discussion thread didn't go well. Let's use the following clip as an example. If you introduce right and left haymaker into this clip, what will happen?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1DNhGr5UmM&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYw9Q3Eti5A

My question is, you may not like to use haymaker, but you can't assume that your opponent won't use it on you. Why didn't you include it as part of your training? IMO, the "forward pressure" works well if haymaker is not involved. When haymaker is involved, everything change.

Your thought?

if you introduce it into that clip what typically happens is that the wing chun guy starts seeing stars, thats what happened to me the day my wing chun sifu decided it was time i learned the toehr arts he teaches and decided to add clf into the mix
if you can close the gap quick enough you can get inside the haymaker, of course it can be shortened into a forearm or even bicep strike, and its deceptively easy to create the distance needed to throw one of those strikes by widening your stance and moving it backwards or sideways

[Kellen Bassette]

In Karate I was always taught not to use haymaker, it is too open, easy to block bad technique....but haymaker is the most natural punch, you always see people who don't pressure test lose their technique and throw haymakers, or just windmill when under real pressure.

Kung Fu has many opportunities to use haymaker and many good set ups to prevent you from being open...I train it more and more these days, it is becoming a favored technique of mine.

[YouKnowWho]

In Karate I was always taught not to use haymaker, it is too open, easy to block bad technique....but haymaker is the most natural punch, you always see people who don't pressure test lose their technique and throw haymakers, or just windmill when under real pressure.

Kung Fu has many opportunities to use haymaker and many good set ups to prevent you from being open...I train it more and more these days, it is becoming a favored technique of mine.

I don't use haymaker in offense. I only use it when my opponent moves in toward me and tries to take my head off. The fast that my opponent tries to moves in toward me, the more effective that my haymaker may work (because I can reach to the back of his head).

To me, haymaker is like foot sweep, whether it may work or not, it can interrupt my opponent's attack and give me a chance to attack back.

[jimbob]

My background is Choy Li Fut - so in answer to your first question - YES.

I agree with Golden Arms - the 45 downward swing punch is often very effective. You need to set it up though - you shouldn't just go in swinging. I always had a lot of success with jab, cross (right hand jab) and then angling off to the right to throw the sow choy.

Kellen - my karate teacher friends would see me swinging my arms and laugh and say exactly what you said - too easy to block, too telegraphed etc etc.

Theory and practice are 2 different things though. On the very rare occasion one of them managed to block, I was usually following up with a spinning backfist.

[YouKnowWho]

A double horizontal haymakers to the head followed by a low kick will be an excellent combo to set up your entering strategy.

[Jimbo]

I have also noticed some karate people (for example) laugh when they first see CLF, because they think it's just wild, unskilled swinging that's easy to block or avoid. That might be true if all someone does is flail away without rhyme or reason. If you know what you're doing, though, these types of strikes are set up, making them much more difficult to see, block or avoid. CLF also uses extensive straight and off-angle strikes, as well. Many of those same karate people end up learning to respect (or complain bitterly about) those 'wide, flailing punches'.

While it's not my most-used strike, I prefer to use Sao Choy when already in-close, as opposed to initiating from a distance. It works best combined with a slight leg sweep, and since I'm not only using the fist, I have a greater area of potential striking surface. In-close, closer to the 'hub of the wheel', there is leverage to strike/takedown; if he pulls back a little, the strike hits with greater force. Sometimes, even if it's blocked, the blow can smash through the block/guard, or be switched up into something else.

Likewise, Kwa, Kup and Pao Choy strikes have versatile uses beyond their initial outward appearance. Contrary to outside observation, they are NOT limited to 'long-range' strategies.

[YouKnowWho]

The following can be an interest test for your haymaker.

- Ask your opponent to use both arms to guard his head.
- You use a body rotation haymaker and hit on his guard.
- Can your haymaker knock through his guard and still hit on his head (if his structure is weak), or can you haymaker be able to knock his body off balance (if his structure is strong)?

[Kellen Bassette]

I have also noticed some karate people (for example) laugh when they first see CLF, because they think it's just wild, unskilled swinging that's easy to block or avoid. That might be true if all someone does is flail away without rhyme or reason. If you know what you're doing, though, these types of strikes are set up, making them much more difficult to see, block or avoid. CLF also uses extensive straight and off-angle strikes, as well. Many of those same karate people end up learning to respect (or complain bitterly about) those 'wide, flailing punches'.


People have this perception of haymaker as the "Popeye twister punch" or being completely open and telegraphing from downtown. When it is used as part of an intelligent setup it becomes very effective and the power can't be ignored.

I think the various usage of circular striking is one of the most interesting aspects of CLF.

[Kellen Bassette]

The following can be an interest test for your haymaker.

- Ask your opponent to use both arms to guard his head.
- You use a body rotation haymaker and hit on his guard.
- Can your haymaker knock through his guard and still hit on his head (if his structure is weak), or can you haymaker be able to knock his body off balance (if his structure is strong)?

I like it..I must try this....

[bawang]

In Karate I was always taught not to use haymaker, it is too open, easy to block bad technique....but haymaker is the most natural punch, you always see people who don't pressure test lose their technique and throw haymakers, or just windmill when under real pressure.

Kung Fu has many opportunities to use haymaker and many good set ups to prevent you from being open...I train it more and more these days, it is becoming a favored technique of mine.

haymaker isn't useful in boxing with the big gloves. its really common in mma. a hook is also in clinch distance.

99% of early ufc kung fu guys tries to throw a hook and get double leg takedown.

[YouKnowWho]

99% of early ufc kung fu guys tries to throw a hook and get double leg takedown.
If you can get double "under hook" on your opponent's shoulders, it will be difficult for him to shoot at your legs. It's not that difficult to prevent double legs. the problem is your double under hooks will give your opponent a chance for his head lock and over hook. When he does that, it will give you a chance for your double legs and bear hug.

It's up to who can play the clinch game better.

[Kellen Bassette]

haymaker isn't useful in boxing with the big gloves. its really common in mma. a hook is also in clinch distance.

99% of early ufc kung fu guys tries to throw a hook and get double leg takedown.

Tight boxers hook is very powerful, but MT guy says why use it? At this range you can use an elbow, more dangerous...and, as you say, if you can land the hook you are in clinch range...

Wider hooks may lend themselves better to MMA environment.

[Frost]

:confused:
If you can get double "under hook" on your opponent's shoulders, it will be difficult for him to shoot at your legs. It's not that difficult to prevent double legs. the problem is your double under hooks will give your opponent a chance for his head lock and over hook. When he does that, it will give you a chance for your double legs and bear hug.

It's up to who can play the clinch game better.

if you have double underhooks how on earth do you throw a hook punch like bawang is talking about :confused:

[YouKnowWho]

:confused:

if you have double underhooks how on earth do you throw a hook punch like bawang is talking about :confused:
It's from haymaker to under hook. It's not from under hook to haymaker. It's from striking to clinching. It's not from clinching to striking.

bawang said, "When you apply haymaker, your opponent can apply double legs on you.

I said, "you can change your haymaker into under hook to prevent double legs. If you can just get one arm under your opponent's shoulder, he can't drop his body to reach to your legs."

[sanjuro_ronin]

In Karate the "haymaker" is called Mawashi-Tzuki ( Roundhouse punch) and it can be used with the fist or forearm, Uechi-ryu uses the forearm for example.

Every technique has its place and when a technique "fails" then, typically, it is because someone has used it in the "wrong place".

[David Jamieson]

http://www.ockickboxing.com/mma-images/mma-history/ancient-boxing.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5a/Egyptmotionseries.jpg

http://www.squaredcircleofwrestling.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Egypt-wrestling.jpg

http://www.santorini-culture.gr/lk21a08e.jpg

http://0.tqn.com/d/ancienthistory/1/5/z/c/2/boxers.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

Uechi-ryu uses the forearm ...

If you use forearm to hit behind your opponent's head and horse back kick both of his legs, you can flip him. If you know how to use your leg to generate power in the opposite direction of your striking force, you already understand the throwing art.

[Syn7]

It's from haymaker to under hook. It's not from under hook to haymaker. It's from striking to clinching. It's not from clinching to striking.

bawang said, "When you apply haymaker, your opponent can apply double legs on you.

I said, "you can change your haymaker into under hook to prevent double legs. If you can just get one arm under your opponent's shoulder, he can't drop his body to reach to your legs."

I can't say for sure, but I got the impression that he meant 'Person A' drops level when the haymaker is thrown by 'Person B'. You see it a lot.

[YouKnowWho]

A drops level when the haymaker is thrown by 'Person B'.
Many wrestlers like to put leading hand in front of their leading leg knee. If your 45 degree downward haymaker can reach to that point (in front of your knee), you can use your under hook to stop your opponent's shooting.