full contact wing chun

[kung fu fighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS-PuD3iQiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3RhlVYYFk8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7HIXHdpj04

[Hendrik]

IMHO


The first clip has Wck in it.

The rest of clip just boxing with Wck technics

[YouKnowWho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS-PuD3iQiI

In the 1st clip,

- I like the foot sweep at 1.11.
- He tried that at 1.25 again. Even if he didn't sweep his opponent down that time, he had put his opponent in defense mode so his opponent could not punch him at that moment. That served his purpose.
- He used it again at 1.49 and it worked too.

In the 2nd and 3rd clips, it's easy to see that the moment your opponent tries to punch you, the moment that he has to put weight on his leading leg. Since both persons don't train "foot sweep", they won't be able to recognize that opportunity and take advantage on it.

This is a good example that if you have a dependable technique (such as foot sweep), it will work for you for the rest of your life. Sometime you may only pay attention on what you can do with your hands and forget about what you can also do with your legs.

Is "foot sweep" WC skill? Do you care? It's just a tool in your tool box. If you don't have "style boundary" in mind, you will see that TCMA will have a lot to offer (I don't know whether "foot sweep" exists in wrestling).

When your opponent tries to punch you, if you use a 45 degree downward 'haymaker", or a "foot sweep" at his leading leg, most of the time you will interrupt your opponent's attack and put him in defense mode. After that you can attack and do whatever that you would like to do.

IMO, if you train "chain punch", you should also train how to counter "haymaker" and "foot sweep" because that will be the most common respond from your opponent when you apply "chain punches" on him.

[wingchunIan]

1st clip - the alledged MMA fighter has never been near a cage or ring in his life as can be seen from his total lack of head movement and reaction to being hit. The Wing Chun exponent was also significantly bigger, heavier and had longer reach.

2nd and 3rd clips - again for the majority the main player has the size advantage. There is also a marked difference in aggression between him and what I take to be his juniors / students. The only time someone matches that aggression by retaliating the outcome is very different. Due to the fear / hesitancy of the majority of the "partners" there is a lot of reaching going on rather than closing of range and supporting of shots with the lower body. They would all benefit more by slowing down and focusing on their footwork (angles, distance etc) before going back to banging again.

[Graham H]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS-PuD3iQiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3RhlVYYFk8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7HIXHdpj04

Yet more clips of people just jumping forward and backward in straight lines chain punching the air. It's like a beginners boxing class. :rolleyes:

[Wayfaring]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS-PuD3iQiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3RhlVYYFk8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7HIXHdpj04

What people should be doing. The skill level on all of these is pretty low to moderate at best, yet what I see is 5 yrs down the road people that train this way will have a feel for their opponent, ranges, handling real contact, and a real feel for what will work in an escalated scenario. They will be able to refine their technique under pressure and get to the point of applying WCK shapes and concepts in a realistic environment.

Those that don't probably will still be sniping at them on internet forums. And still won't be able to fight.

;)

[Hendrik]

John,

I disagree with you on tool.

It is not foot sweep.

It is there is Wck stratergy momentum DNA applied in clip one. But the other two clips just exchange punches.


That strategy makes a different of it is or not Wck also how to cultivate Wck Kung fu in fighting.





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS-PuD3iQiI

In the 1st clip,

- I like the foot sweep at 1.11.
- He tried that at 1.25 again. Even if he didn't sweep his opponent down that time, he had put his opponent in defense mode so his opponent could not punch him at that moment. That served his purpose.
- He used it again at 1.49 and it worked too.

In the 2nd and 3rd clips, it's easy to see that the moment your opponent tries to punch you, the moment that he has to put weight on his leading leg. Since both persons don't train "foot sweep", they won't be able to recognize that opportunity and take advantage on it.

This is a good example that if you have a dependable technique (such as foot sweep), it will work for you for the rest of your life. Sometime you may only pay attention on what you can do with your hands and forget about what you can also do with your legs.

Is "foot sweep" WC skill? Do you care? It's just a tool in your tool box. If you don't have "style boundary" in mind, you will see that TCMA will have a lot to offer (I don't know whether "foot sweep" exists in wrestling).

When your opponent tries to punch you, if you use a 45 degree downward 'haymaker", or a "foot sweep" at his leading leg, most of the time you will interrupt your opponent's attack and put him in defense mode. After that you can attack and do whatever that you would like to do.

IMO, if you train "chain punch", you should also train how to counter "haymaker" and "foot sweep" because that will be the most common respond from your opponent when you apply "chain punches" on him.

[YouKnowWho]

John,

I disagree with you on tool.

It is not foot sweep.

It is there is Wck stratergy momentum DNA applied in clip one. But the other two clips just exchange punches.

That strategy makes a different of it is or not Wck also how to cultivate Wck Kung fu in fighting.

If "foot sweep" is not in the forms of a system, it may come from "cross training" (nothing wrong with that).

[LFJ]

Yet more clips of people just jumping forward and backward in straight lines chain punching the air. It's like a beginners boxing class. :rolleyes:

Meh, I don't think Jai, in the first clip, is half bad. Thing is his opponent never put on a pair of gloves before and kept cowering away. In that case what more can you expect to see... Would like to see him given a better opponent.

[Hendrik]

IMHO,

It is not about foot sweep, but the way how to do the sweep.

foot sweep is always a part of Wck. There are foot sweep the individual technics and foot sweep according to Wck momentum DNA.



If "foot sweep" is not in the forms of a system, it may come from "cross training" (nothing wrong with that).

[guy b.]

what I see is 5 yrs down the road people that train this way will have a feel for their opponent, ranges

5 years? :eek:

[YouKnowWho]

foot sweep is always a part of Wck.

Could you prove it? Could you share any clip?

[LaRoux]

Yet more clips of people just jumping forward and backward in straight lines chain punching the air. It's like a beginners boxing class. :rolleyes:

Of course that is what the people who never spar full contact are going to say.

[LaRoux]

The Wing Chun exponent was also significantly bigger, heavier and had longer reach.

2nd and 3rd clips - again for the majority the main player has the size advantage.

That's pretty much the only time pure wing chun works against a resisting opponent.

[Wayfaring]

5 years? :eek:

whatever. random number. based on those guys being pretty new and not focused on developing fighting sparring skills exclusively, but doing other WCK stuff as well. And not having top level coaching for that kind of thing. And them probably not being the same commitment level as someone trying to build a career as a fighter. It could be done in under a year with the right variables.

my point is that it may look kind of clunky right now and unskilled because they are just starting that type of training. but consistently doing that type of training will start to show a difference over time. and it will distance them from people who just do chi sau training + forms + dummy with no live unrestricted sparring consistently.

[guy b.]

Everyone does sparring surely?

[Hendrik]

Do you practice WCK wooden Dummy?


Could you prove it? Could you share any clip?

[YouKnowWho]

Do you practice WCK wooden Dummy?

I built my 1st WC dummy in Texas back in 1974. One day I found a telephone pole on the ground. I spent $500 to customer made my WC dummy. The head and chest had rubber covered. Both arms and leg had strong springs to connect to the body (telephone pole). It stood on a metal plate with a big spring when put against the wall. That $500 in 70th may worth $2000 today. Back then I only charged $30 a month for 3 hours class and 4 days a week.

http://imageshack.us/a/img407/4960/ehpj.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/407/ehpj.jpg/)

One day when I fixed roof leak on top of my school roof, some one broke in my window. He kneed down in front of my wooden dummy as if he was worshiping some kind of god (My school was just 2 blocks away from the Austin mental hospital). He said, "I have always believed that I belong here". He soon was taken away by police.

[Kellen Bassette]

You got some great stories John... :)

[Hendrik]

John,

Great dummy!

You still have it?


I built my 1st WC dummy in Texas back in 1974. One day I found a telephone pole on the ground. I spent $500 to customer made my WC dummy. The head and chest had rubber covered. Both arms and leg had strong springs to connect to the body (telephone pole). It stood on a metal plate with a big spring when put against the wall. That $500 in 70th may worth $2000 today. Back then I only charged $30 a month for 3 hours class and 4 days a week.

http://imageshack.us/a/img407/4960/ehpj.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/407/ehpj.jpg/)

One day when I fixed roof leak on top of my school roof, some one broke in my window. He kneed down in front of my wooden dummy as if he was worshiping some kind of god (My school was just 2 blocks away from the Austin mental hospital). He said, "I have always believed that I belong here". He soon was taken away by police.

[YouKnowWho]

John,

Great dummy!

You still have it?

No, my Texas house doesn't have garage. I let it to stay outdoor under the Texas sun and rain. Finally, I gave it to someone from Dallas. If I still have it, I would put up a picture. It was a nice piece of work. The chest area was covered by fur and leather outside of the rubber.

The body was telephone pole -> rubber -> leather -> fur

[Graham H]

Of course that is what the people who never spar full contact are going to say.

I spar full contact with no protection. Were you implying that I don't? :confused:

[Frost]

I spar full contact with no protection. Were you implying that I don't? :confused:

yes he was, and so am I come to think of it :)
feel free to post clips of the bare knuckle on protection fighting to prove us wrong though :)

[Frost]

Everyone does sparring surely?

you would hope so, however its amazing that all those cameras that are around when the forms are being done, and the chi sao steering wheel is being turned get majically turned off when the sparring happens

[Graham H]

yes he was, and so am I come to think of it :)
feel free to post clips of the bare knuckle on protection fighting to prove us wrong though :)

Likewise and BTW I don't have to prove anything to you or anybody for that fact! My door is always open if people want to come and check me out! Not in a gay way though as I'm sure Glenn would like :D

[LFJ]

majically turned off when the sparring happens

Not magically. Filming or uploading clips of sparring is "not allowed"...

[GlennR]

Likewise and BTW I don't have to prove anything to you or anybody for that fact! My door is always open if people want to come and check me out! Not in a gay way though as I'm sure Glenn would like :D

Im sure youve had many men come in your back door Graham!

[Frost]

Not magically. Filming or uploading clips of sparring is "not allowed"...

how convenient is that...and its amazing that all these bickering lineages can agree to that commandment isn't it when they can't agree on anything else
...christ what is this the 18th century people are happy to show forms applications chi so etc but think their spirit will be stolen if a clip of action sparring is put out there:confused::eek::rolleyes:

[Frost]

Likewise and BTW I don't have to prove anything to you or anybody for that fact! My door is always open if people want to come and check me out! Not in a gay way though as I'm sure Glenn would like :D

so that's a no on the clip then :):):)

[Graham H]

Im sure youve had many men come in your back door Graham!

Lost count years ago mate and they all leave with a smile on their face! lol :o

[Graham H]

so that's a no on the clip then :):):)

I dunno, is it?

[Graham H]

how convenient is that...and its amazing that all these bickering lineages can agree to that commandment isn't it when they can't agree on anything else
...christ what is this the 18th century people are happy to show forms applications chi so etc but think their spirit will be stolen if a clip of action sparring is put out there:confused::eek::rolleyes:

Yes and the reason is, is because nobody can make themselves look as good in sparring as in the forms or chi sau! If we all looked great and had no ego the net would be full of them. Nobody wants to look bad! It's human nature.

[LFJ]

how convenient is that...and its amazing that all these bickering lineages can agree to that commandment isn't it when they can't agree on anything else
...christ what is this the 18th century people are happy to show forms applications chi so etc but think their spirit will be stolen if a clip of action sparring is put out there:confused::eek::rolleyes:

Because one's true ability will come out far more clearly in unrestricted sparring, and I suppose they don't want to face the music.


Yes and the reason is, is because nobody can make themselves look as good in sparring as in the forms or chi sau! If we all looked great and had no ego the net would be full of them. Nobody wants to look bad! It's human nature.

So, you guys don't allow sparring clips because you're only good at forms and chi-sau? That's disappointing.

[Frost]

I dunno, is it?

you are the one saying you spar full contact without protection so you are the one im asking for a clip from so are we going to see it? Lots make this claim its usually bull so forgive me for not believing without some proof....come to think it only 1 person I know of on this forum has ever posted a full contact no protection clip...and he was an mma guy :)

[Frost]

Because one's true ability will come out far more clearly in unrestricted sparring, and I suppose they don't want to face the music.



So, you guys don't allow sparring clips because you're only good at forms and chi-sau? That's disappointing.

you use words like they and you guys....inferring you are somehow different....so have we seen clips of yourself using your art in sparring?

[Graham H]

Because one's true ability will come out far more clearly in unrestricted sparring, and I suppose they don't want to face the music.

I haven't seen any clips of you yet. You could be a 4ft dwarf with an orthopedic shoe!


So, you guys don't allow sparring clips because you're only good at forms and chi-sau? That's disappointing.

When did I say WE don't allow clips for that reason?

[LFJ]

you use words like they and you guys....inferring you are somehow different....so have we seen clips of yourself using your art in sparring?

No. It is the PBVT organization that says they don't allow filming their sparring or at least uploading the clips for some reason but that they do hard sparring all the time. I'm not a part of their organization. I have no other reason than that I simply don't have clips up. But I'm also not making any claims about what I do.

[Graham H]

you are the one saying you spar full contact without protection so you are the one im asking for a clip from so are we going to see it? Lots make this claim its usually bull so forgive me for not believing without some proof....come to think it only 1 person I know of on this forum has ever posted a full contact no protection clip...and he was an mma guy :)

Yes and for both of us it's only words. Where is your clip? What would showing a clip of each other actually achieve? You don't know how hard I can punch. You don't know how I would deal with you. You have no idea of anything and yet you think a clip would give you some idea. Who would my opponent be? A training partner? A student? Some guy in the street? :rolleyes::rolleyes::confused::confused:

Silly man Frost!

[Graham H]

No. It is the PBVT organization that says they don't allow filming their sparring or at least uploading the clips for some reason but that they do hard sparring all the time. I'm not a part of their organization. I have no other reason than that I simply don't have clips up. But I'm also not making any claims about what I do.

Well you certainly do through your posts!!!

[LFJ]

I haven't seen any clips of you yet. You could be a 4ft dwarf with an orthopedic shoe!

That's Glenn...


When did I say WE don't allow clips for that reason?

Well you said "nobody can", "if we all", and "nobody wants to". If you're not putting up clips either, then you're included in your own generalization.

[LFJ]

Well you certainly do through your posts!!!

Do I? I just discuss the system and how it's used here, but don't make claims about how hardcore my training is or how much head cracking it involves. If I were coming here to do that I'd at least post clips.

[Graham H]

Do I? I just discuss the system and how it's used here, but don't make claims about how hardcore my training is or how much head cracking it involves. If I were coming here to do that I'd at least post clips.

You are like the Wing Chun Houdini! lol

[GlennR]

That's Glenn...


Im 3ft thanks!

[Graham H]

Im 3ft thanks!

Oh come on I was expecting more back lash than that!!! :)

[guy b.]

yes he was, and so am I come to think of it :)
feel free to post clips of the bare knuckle on protection fighting to prove us wrong though :)

Why the need to post clips from you guys like you are the ultimate judges of legitimacy in wing chun? I hear a lot of complaints about the arrogant attitude PB and WSL guys from the MMA contingent here but this demand for clips that meet your approval is also incredibly arrogant and off-putting.

I haven't seen any clips from you guys of you fighting or even sparring hard. All I tend to see is clips of other people, usually MMA guys, that you approve of. Or clips of you guys gently grappling. It seems like a double standard applies

In my experience many people have clips of both padded and unprotected sparring but we don't tend to put them on youtube for a couple of reasons.

[guy b.]

you would hope so, however its amazing that all those cameras that are around when the forms are being done, and the chi sao steering wheel is being turned get majically turned off when the sparring happens

Think for a moment

[guy b.]

how convenient is that...and its amazing that all these bickering lineages can agree to that commandment isn't it when they can't agree on anything else
...christ what is this the 18th century people are happy to show forms applications chi so etc but think their spirit will be stolen if a clip of action sparring is put out there:confused::eek::rolleyes:

Clips of actual fight team training from MMA teams are also strangely absent. Likewise fighter training from boxing gyms. Demo and exhibition footage abounds. Why is this do you think?

[guy b.]

So, you guys don't allow sparring clips because you're only good at forms and chi-sau? That's disappointing.

You just said you don't allow them either, lol?

You won't even say where you train so not sure you have much to say to Graham

[sanjuro_ronin]

Clips of actual fight team training from MMA teams are also strangely absent. Likewise fighter training from boxing gyms. Demo and exhibition footage abounds. Why is this do you think?

Are you stating that we don't have any footage of MMA fighters and Boxers training ?

[LFJ]

You just said you don't allow them either, lol?

I did? Who am I disallowing?

[guy b.]

Are you stating that we don't have any footage of MMA fighters and Boxers training ?

They generally allow you to film what they want you to see. They aren't posting strategic training for upcoming fights on youtube

[guy b.]

Not magically. Filming or uploading clips of sparring is "not allowed"...

Here, you say you don't allow clips of sparring to be uploaded

[sanjuro_ronin]

They generally allow you to film what they want you to see. They aren't posting strategic training for upcoming fights on youtube

ARe you actually comparing what we have in terms of videos showing boxers, MMA, Thai fighters, etc training and fighting full contact with what we get from WC gusy that post videos?

[LFJ]

Here, you say you don't allow clips of sparring to be uploaded

Notice "not allowed" was in quotations. I was quoting the PBVT organization. They said it's not allowed. Not me.

[Frost]

ARe you actually comparing what we have in terms of videos showing boxers, MMA, Thai fighters, etc training and fighting full contact with what we get from WC gusy that post videos?

I think his point is even more misguided than that he is trying to equate mma coaches not wanting an opponent to see how they are preparing for him specifically with wing chun im general not wanting anyone to see how they fight. What does he think a mugger is going to do...look him up on YouTube first before attacking him?/????? :eek::confused:
There are plenty of mma Thai and boxing sparring clips..
Just look up mikes gym and you will see the like of Daley and meonoff sparring.

Doesn't mean now you know how they fight you can stop them hitting you though lol

[Shads]

They generally allow you to film what they want you to see. They aren't posting strategic training for upcoming fights on youtube

Fcukin hilarious!!!! maybe you failed to notice that theirs is a competitive environment where they are about to fight , or maybe you missed the bit where the actual fight is filmed and available to view, or the sh1t load of videos of sparring in Thai, MMA and boxing gyms across the world available online. :eek:

[Shads]

That's pretty much the only time pure wing chun works against a resisting opponent.
WTF is pure wing chun??? let me guess your a JKD fanboy

[guy b.]

ARe you actually comparing what we have in terms of videos showing boxers, MMA, Thai fighters, etc training and fighting full contact with what we get from WC gusy that post videos?

Training is not fighting. There are clips of boxers, MMA fighters and Thai fighters fighting because these are fighting sports and the aim is to fight according to the rules in front of spectators. Real training videos of fighters are much more rare. Mostly you see demos and exhibitions.

You don't see fighting clips of wing chun because wing chun is not a fighting sport filmed for the entertainment of paying customers. You don't see wing chun training clips (apart from the most basic) for reasons previously discussed.

[guy b.]

I think his point is even more misguided than that he is trying to equate mma coaches not wanting an opponent to see how they are preparing for him specifically with wing chun im general not wanting anyone to see how they fight. What does he think a mugger is going to do...look him up on YouTube first before attacking him?/????? :eek::confused:
There are plenty of mma Thai and boxing sparring clips..
Just look up mikes gym and you will see the like of Daley and meonoff sparring.

Doesn't mean now you know how they fight you can stop them hitting you though lol

What you see is what the people in question want you to see, i.e. what is not damaging to them. This is the same for any martial art or fighting sport. MMA is no different to wing chun in this respect.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Training is not fighting. There are clips of boxers, MMA fighters and Thai fighters fighting because these are fighting sports and the aim is to fight according to the rules in front of spectators. Real training videos of fighters are much more rare. Mostly you see demos and exhibitions.

You don't see fighting clips of wing chun because wing chun is not a fighting sport filmed for the entertainment of paying customers. You don't see wing chun training clips (apart from the most basic) for reasons previously discussed.

And yet WC people have no problem putting up clips of no contact, light contact and just plain crappy sparring, not to mention chi sao and any compliant clip you can think off.

I can't believe we are still throwing around silliness like "real fighting".
Where I come from a real fight is any altercation where the guy is trying to knock your teeth out, even more "real" is when he actually KNOWS how to fight too.

[guy b.]

Fcukin hilarious!!!! maybe you failed to notice that theirs is a competitive environment where they are about to fight , or maybe you missed the bit where the actual fight is filmed and available to view, or the sh1t load of videos of sparring in Thai, MMA and boxing gyms across the world available online. :eek:

If it is available on line then it is by definition demo or exhibition footage. You don't get live untrammeled access to all of the training, do you?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Secrets of boxing:
Angelo Dundee - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzX-lbVrSmg

Kuniaka Shibata has a bunch of clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnUdeJoAcH4

You can also search for Cus D'Amato and Emmanuel Steward and more.

[Frost]

What you see is what the people in question want you to see, i.e. what is not damaging to them. This is the same for any martial art or fighting sport. MMA is no different to wing chun in this respect.

its not damaging to them because we aren't at a level to stop them doing what they wanted even if we know their secrets :eek::eek::eek:

seriously are you really arguing MMA fighters and thai fighters hide thier REAL stuff just like the wing chun crowd do, you cant be that deluded surely????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYhUC2uQR7I

mikes gym sparring session for pro fighters at the 1 minute mark you can see paul daley and one of his favourite combinations jab cross shovel hook to low round house, i know its one of his favourites because ive been hit with it, now you know his secret too i still doubt he will lose much sleep over us knowing it though

[guy b.]

Secrets of boxing:
Angelo Dundee - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzX-lbVrSmg

Kuniaka Shibata has a bunch of clips:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnUdeJoAcH4

You can also search for Cus D'Amato and Emmanuel Steward and more.

This is an introduction to boxing, a documentary more than anything, and a bit of seminar footage. You can find the same easily enough in wing chun, lol

[guy b.]

its not damaging to them because we aren't at a level to stop them doing what they wanted even if we know their secrets :eek::eek::eek:

seriously are you really arguing MMA fighters and thai fighters hide thier REAL stuff just like the wing chun crowd do, you cant be that deluded surely????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYhUC2uQR7I

mikes gym sparring session for pro fighters at the 1 minute mark you can see paul daley and one of his favourite combinations jab cross shovel hook to low round house, i know its one of his favourites because ive been hit with it, now you know his secret too i still doubt he will lose much sleep over us knowing it though

This is a highlights clip, i.e. promotional material. There is no coaching and they are showing you the bits they want you to see- the ones that make them look good.

[Frost]

This is an introduction to boxing, a documentary more than anything, and a bit of seminar footage. You can find the same easily enough in wing chun, lol

can you find the same clips from the wing chun crowd as i just posted from mike gym?

or how about this one think Badr Hari is hiding his real stuff from us?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gji3EM4jaV0

[guy b.]

seriously are you really arguing MMA fighters and thai fighters hide thier REAL stuff just like the wing chun crowd do, you cant be that deluded surely????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYhUC2uQR7I

I've no idea what you are talking about really. People show you what they want you to see, i.e. what is not damaging to them. This is the same for boxing, mma and wing chun.

[guy b.]

And yet WC people have no problem putting up clips of no contact, light contact and just plain crappy sparring, not to mention chi sao and any compliant clip you can think off.

Obviously they feel that showing anything else would be damaging to them. With guys like you around I think they are probably correct. Why show it when there is no need to? Chi sau and demo clips are enough to attract those that are interested and to show particular flavours


I can't believe we are still throwing around silliness like "real fighting".
Where I come from a real fight is any altercation where the guy is trying to knock your teeth out, even more "real" is when he actually KNOWS how to fight too.

I didn't say anything about "real fighting". What are you talking about?

[Frost]

This is a highlights clip, i.e. promotional material. There is no coaching and they are showing you the bits they want you to see- the ones that make them look good.

lord you really are dense arent you, where did ronin or i say we wanted to see coaching, we said sparring clips never said we wanted to see a whole fight just clips of people going at it at the same intensity as these guys do

heres close to a round of hari doing light sparring
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAUA9Kdnb00

a whole round at house of pain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kedX5w6MpJY&feature=endscreen

buakaw sparring
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iijaInvi1tU

king mo sparring
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iqHHiH5Kcs

[Frost]

lord you really are dense arent you, where did ronin or i say we wanted to see coaching, we said sparring clips never said we wanted to see a whole fight just clips of people going at it at the same intensity as these guys do

heres close to a round of hari doing light sparring
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAUA9Kdnb00

a whole round at house of pain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kedX5w6MpJY&feature=endscreen

buakaw sparring
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iijaInvi1tU

king mo sparring
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iqHHiH5Kcs

where are these guys and gyms hiding anything????

[guy b.]

where are these guys and gyms hiding anything????

They are certainly showing you what they want you to see.

[guy b.]

where did ronin or i say we wanted to see coaching, we said sparring clips

There is a really easy way for you to see sparring if you actually want to.

This constant demand for satisfaction through clips makes you sound like a petulant baby demanding that daddy brings what he wants, lol

[LaRoux]

I spar full contact with no protection. Were you implying that I don't? :confused:

Yes, that's exactly what I know.

[LaRoux]

My door is always open if people want to come and check me out!

OK, where is that?

[LaRoux]

Yes and the reason is, is because nobody can make themselves look as good in sparring as in the forms or chi sau! If we all looked great and had no ego the net would be full of them. Nobody wants to look bad! It's human nature.

Apparently the people you claim were "...just jumping forward and backward in straight lines chain punching the air..." didn't seem to share your opinion.

[LaRoux]

Yes and for both of us it's only words. Where is your clip? What would showing a clip of each other actually achieve? You don't know how hard I can punch. You don't know how I would deal with you. You have no idea of anything and yet you think a clip would give you some idea. Who would my opponent be? A training partner? A student? Some guy in the street? :rolleyes::rolleyes::confused::confused:

Silly man Frost!

The silly man is the one who criticizes those with clips, yet is unable to post any of his own or even of any WC being done in a manner that he considers to be "good" WC.

[LaRoux]

Why the need to post clips from you guys like you are the ultimate judges of legitimacy in wing chun? I hear a lot of complaints about the arrogant attitude PB and WSL guys from the MMA contingent here but this demand for clips that meet your approval is also incredibly arrogant and off-putting.

I haven't seen any clips from you guys of you fighting or even sparring hard. All I tend to see is clips of other people, usually MMA guys, that you approve of. Or clips of you guys gently grappling. It seems like a double standard applies

In my experience many people have clips of both padded and unprotected sparring but we don't tend to put them on youtube for a couple of reasons.

When you criticize those WC guys with clips as not doing "real" or "good" WC, yet can point to zero evidence of any "real" or "good" WC being done full-contact, then that makes your claims bogus.

[LaRoux]

WTF is pure wing chun??? let me guess your a JKD fanboy

Haha. That's a good question. According to the WC practitioners here, only the WC they do is pure.

My definition of "pure" WC would be using the techniques that are done in training in things like Chi Sao and the Wooden Dummy in full contact settings against resisting opponents. The fact is, you will rarely see a smaller, weaker guy use any of those techs effectively against a larger, stronger opponent. Even a larger, stronger WC practitioner will not be able to use the majority of techniques that he practices when going full contact against a smaller, weaker opponent because most of those techs are not effective in full contact situations.

[Graham H]

Full of sh1t as usual La Roux :rolleyes:

[LaRoux]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS-PuD3iQiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3RhlVYYFk8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7HIXHdpj04

What those clips do show are a good representation of a few of the many inefficiencies of WC:
1- Lack of head movement.
2- Minimal body rotation when striking.
3- Reliance on straight up the middle punching.
4- No clinching ability.
5- Not being able to use the majority of techniques done in training in pressure situations.

[GlennR]

They are certainly showing you what they want you to see.

Well if you want to see real fighters, showing real world skills then yes..... they are showing me what i want to see

[LaRoux]

Full of sh1t as usual La Roux :rolleyes:

I think the guy who is full of Sh1t is the guy who criticizes those with clips, yet neither has any of his own nor can point to any that might be better representations of full contact fighting with WC.

[guy b.]

When you criticize those WC guys with clips as not doing "real" or "good" WC, yet can point to zero evidence of any "real" or "good" WC being done full-contact, then that makes your claims bogus.

When you demand clips so that you can sit in judgement without being willing to provide clips of your own then that makes you a hypocrite. Which is what you are.

On the other hand it is not "bogus" (whatever that means) to provide an opinion on a freely provided clip.

[guy b.]

Well if you want to see real fighters, showing real world skills then yes..... they are showing me what i want to see

They are showing you what they want you to see. If that happens also to be what you want to see then good for you

[LaRoux]

When you demand clips so that you can sit in judgement without being willing to provide clips of your own then that makes you a hypocrite. Which is what you are.

On the other hand it is not "bogus" (whatever that means) to provide an opinion on a freely provided clip.

The hypocrite is the one who sits in judgement of others' clips, yet neither has any of his own nor can point to any that might be better representations of full contact fighting with WC.

[LaRoux]

They are showing you what they want you to see. If that happens also to be what you want to see then good for you

Last time I checked, these fighters fight opponents in competitions for all to see. I doubt they have any control over what they let you see in those competitions.

[guy b.]

Haha. That's a good question. According to the WC practitioners here, only the WC they do is pure.

Oh really? Please provide a quote.

[LaRoux]

Oh really? Please provide a quote.

All you have to do is read the forum to see this in action over and over again.

[guy b.]

All you have to do is read the forum to see this in action over and over again.

Please back this claim up with evidence.

[guy b.]

The hypocrite is the one who sits in judgement of others' clips, yet neither has any of his own nor can point to any that might be better representations of full contact fighting with WC.

It is not hypocritical to provide an assessment of a clip that is freely provided. This is merely the expression of opinion.

It is hypocritical to demand the provision of clips from others when you are unwilling to provide clips of your own.

[LaRoux]

It is not hypocritical to provide an assessment of a clip that is freely provided. This is merely the expression of opinion.

It is hypocritical to demand the provision of clips from others when you are unwilling to provide clips of your own.

If you are going to criticize the clips of others, you should at least be able to point to some evidence somewhere of it being done the way you think it should be done. Whether that is you or someone else is beside the point. What is hypocritical is criticizing, yet being unable to point to any evidence that it can be done better. That shows a person who lives in the realm of theoretical fantasy.

[guy b.]

Last time I checked, these fighters fight opponents in competitions for all to see. I doubt they have any control over what they let you see in those competitions.

You mean that fighters in fighting sports contracted to fight in front of spectators provide footage of the fighting that they were contracted to provide? Amazing

This is them letting you see what they want you to see. I expect that what they don't want you to see, you don't see.

Maybe you should pay for the wing chun clips you would like to see?

[LaRoux]

Maybe you should pay for the wing chun clips you would like to see?

Actually, those WC instructors who supposedly have workable techniques would pay to put their clips out there for all to see if they really had these realistic, workable techniques. It would be a boom to their businesses, as they would start to bring in people who wanted to learn realistic fighting, in addition to the fantasy guys they currently get.

[guy b.]

If you are going to criticize the clips of others, you should at least be able to point to some evidence somewhere of it being done the way you think it should be done.

Why?


What is hypocritical is criticizing, yet being unable to point to any evidence that it can be done better. That shows a person who lives in the realm of theoretical fantasy.

The definition of hypocrisy is quite clear. You are a hypocrite in demanding clips from others that you are unwilling to provide yourself. Passing comment on freely provided clips is not hypocritical. Find a different word. You are the hypocrite

[LaRoux]

You mean that fighters in fighting sports contracted to fight in front of spectators provide footage of the fighting that they were contracted to provide? Amazing

This is them letting you see what they want you to see. I expect that what they don't want you to see, you don't see.

Oh, that's right. They hide what they don't want you to see and risk losing, instead of using everything they have in order to win because they are afraid of people seeing certain things.

[LaRoux]

Passing comment on freely provided clips is not hypocritical.

It is hypocritical when you can provide zero evidence of it being done in a manner that is better than the way you are criticizing.

[guy b.]

Actually, those WC instructors who supposedly have workable techniques would pay to put their clips out there for all to see

If you want to see something then draw up a contract and negotiate a price, same as anything else, you crybaby.

Why do you think there is lots of footage of sport fighting out there for you to touch yourself to? It is because people are paying for it to be there

[guy b.]

It is hypocritical when you can provide zero evidence of it being done in a manner that is better than the way you are criticizing.

Please consult a dictionary or get someone intelligent to do it for you if you continue having difficulty

[LaRoux]

Please consult a dictionary or get someone intelligent to do it for you if you continue having difficulty


From merriam-webster.com:

Example of HYPOCRITE-
the hypocrites who criticize other people for not voting but who don't always vote themselves

[guy b.]

Oh, that's right. They hide what they don't want you to see and risk losing, instead of using everything they have in order to win because they are afraid of people seeing certain things.

Lol, no.

Complete misunderstanding

[LaRoux]

If you want to see something then draw up a contract and negotiate a price, same as anything else, you crybaby.

Why do you think there is lots of footage of sport fighting out there for you to touch yourself to? It is because people are paying for it to be there

There is lots of footage of sport fighting because there is lots of sport fighting going on.

Amateur fighters get paid nothing. They even pay entrance fees out of their own pockets to compete. Plenty of their fights are out there to be seen, again because there is so much of it going on- kind of the opposite of how much WC fighting is going on.

[LaRoux]

Lol, no.

Complete misunderstanding

OK, then clarify how someone enters a competition, yet only lets you see what they want you to see.

[guy b.]

From merriam-webster.com:

Example of HYPOCRITE-
the hypocrites who criticize other people for not voting but who don't always vote themselves

There is no claim to virtue being made in passing comment on a clip that is freely provided. It is merely opinion.

By demanding clips showing sparring from other people you set a bar that you fail to clear yourself, i.e. you are a hypocrite

[LaRoux]

There is no claim to virtue being made in passing comment on a clip that is freely provided. It is merely opinion.

By demanding clips showing sparring from other people you set a bar that you fail to clear yourself, i.e. you are a hypocrite

I can show plenty of clips that represent what I am talking about and what I criticize. The three in the first post are perfect examples of this. You can show no examples of what you are talking about or criticizing when it comes to full contact fighting. This makes you the hypocrite.

[guy b.]

There is lots of footage of sport fighting because there is lots of sport fighting going on.

Amateur fighters get paid nothing. They even pay entrance fees out of their own pockets to compete. Plenty of their fights are out there to be seen, again because there is so much of it going on- kind of the opposite of how much WC fighting is going on.

Amateur fighters are members of gyms that are run as businesses training people how to fight in amateur competitions. If you want to see clips then pay for them if they aren't already freely available. Why should they be provided free of charge to you, a hypocrite?

[guy b.]

I can show plenty of clips that represent what I am talking about and what I criticize. The three in the first post are perfect examples of this. You can show no examples of what you are talking about or criticizing when it comes to full contact fighting. This makes you the hypocrite.

I am not demanding clips from anyone. You are having a real struggle understanding the meaning of the word.

Hypocrisy is not lack of evidence. That is something else. Perhaps look it up so that you can use it as a term of abuse when I remind you of your hypocrisy and cowardice?

[LaRoux]

Why should they be provided free of charge to you, a hypocrite?

Simple. Because it would be good for WC businesses if they truly had effective techniques.

They aren't provided freely these businesses know it would be bad for WC business to show actual sparring/fighting, as they would not only not bring in the people who want real fight training, but they would also lose many of their main base of fantasy students when they saw what actual sparring/fighting using WC looks like.

[Hendrik]

great!

mine is outdoor, not that great to keep outdoor even with a great northen California weather.



No, my Texas house doesn't have garage. I let it to stay outdoor under the Texas sun and rain. Finally, I gave it to someone from Dallas. If I still have it, I would put up a picture. It was a nice piece of work. The chest area was covered by fur and leather outside of the rubber.

The body was telephone pole -> rubber -> leather -> fur

[LaRoux]

I am not demanding clips from anyone. You are having a real struggle understanding the meaning of the word.

Hypocrisy is not lack of evidence. That is something else. Perhaps look it up so that you can use it as a term of abuse when I remind you of your hypocrisy and cowardice?

Hypocrisy is passing negative judgement on something while not being able to provide any evidence of it being done better, either by oneself or by others.

[guy b.]

Simple. Because it would be good for WC businesses if they truly had effective techniques.

They aren't provided freely these businesses know it would be bad for WC business to show actual sparring/fighting, as they would not only not bring in the people who want real fight training, but they would also lose many of their main base of fantasy students when they saw what actual sparring/fighting using WC looks like.

Not everyone lives life through a screen, demanding things from others that they refuse to provide themselves. Some people actually go and look in the real world. You can also do this any time you like. Nothing is stopping you apart from your cowardice and hypocrisy.

[LaRoux]

Not everyone lives life through a screen, demanding things from others that they refuse to provide themselves. Some people actually go and look in the real world. You can also do this any time you like. Nothing is stopping you apart from your cowardice and hypocrisy.

Businesses with good and effective products and services know that it is in their best interest to provide as much transparency as possible to their potential customers about those products and services, even to those who "lives life through a screen".

Hucksters who run business with far less than good or effective products and services understand that it is best to keep many things hidden from these potential customers.

[guy b.]

Hypocrisy is passing negative judgement on something while not being able to provide any evidence of it being done better, either by oneself or by others.

I'm sorry, this is not hypocrisy, it is merely opinion. At worst it is unfounded opinion.

A hypocrite is a person whose actions belie their stated beliefs, for example one who demands video clips from everyone while failing to provide their own clip(s)

[LaRoux]

I'm sorry, this is not hypocrisy, it is merely opinion. At worst it is unfounded opinion.

A hypocrite is a person whose actions belie their stated beliefs, for example one who demands video clips from everyone while failing to provide their own clip(s)

That would mean I'm not a hypocrite. I don't demand video clips of anything different that what I provide.

[guy b.]

Businesses with good and effective products and services know that it is in their best interest to provide as much transparency as possible to their potential customers about those products and services, even to those who "lives life through a screen".

Hucksters who run business with far less than good or effective products and services understand that it is best to keep many things hidden from these potential customers.

Businesses with a product best experienced via tactile physical experience tend to sell it that way. You just need to get off your chair. The publicity info is already available and you know where to go.

[guy b.]

That would mean I'm not a hypocrite. I don't demand video clips of anything different that what I provide.

You demand video clips from people here on the forum showing their specific training while providing video clips of random professional fighters (which you are not). i.e. you are a hypocrite.

If you accepted random video clips of professional fighters in return then you would not be a hypocrite.

[LaRoux]

You demand video clips from people here on the forum showing their training while providing video clips of professional fighters (which you are not). i.e. you are a hypocrite

The hypocrite would be the guy who claims he spars full contact, yet can provide no evidence for that fact.

The only video that I would demand would be from the guy who claims to fight full contact, yet has no evidence for that.

[guy b.]

The hypocrite would be the guy who claims he spars full contact, yet can provide no evidence for that fact.

No that wouldn't be a hypocrite. It would be a person that hasn't provided specific video evidence of a claim made on a wing chun forum.

[LaRoux]

In my experience many people have clips of both padded and unprotected sparring but we don't tend to put them on youtube for a couple of reasons.

Hahaha! Remind me to recruit you if I ever start a cult. Oh, never mind, you've already been taken in by the WC cult.

[Golden Arms]

Talk about beating a dead horse. I am not sure who has been saying the same old thing for no good reason for longer, LaRoux/Knifefighter/Whatever alias he posts under, or the majority of the Wing Chun Forum. You guys make Hendrik look like the new kid on the block.

[KPM]

The hypocrite would be the guy who claims he spars full contact, yet can provide no evidence for that fact.

The only video that I would demand would be from the guy who claims to fight full contact, yet has no evidence for that.

I haven't been following this thread at all. Just popped into it and saw this comment. Sorry LaRoux, but you are just wrong. A hypocrite is someone that finds fault in others that he doesn't see in himself. Its the "do what I say, not what I do" syndrome. Like criticizing someone else for drinking while holding a can of beer. :)

Someone that claims to fight full contact but hasn't provided evidence is simply someone that hasn't proven what they claim. That's not being a hypocrite. Now, if he boasted about being a full contact fighter, then criticized others that said the same without proof and never provided his own proof of being a full contact fighter...THAT would be being a hypocrite! ;)

[guy b.]

Hahaha! Remind me to recruit you if I ever start a cult. Oh, never mind, you've already been taken in by the WC cult.

Ok hypocrite. Remind me not to contact you if I need help with basic vocabulary

[guy b.]

Knifefighter

What entertainment do these people get from trolling a wing chun forum?

They have been at it so long that they must be at least 50 by now. Probably fat, alone from all the time hunched over the computer...but still MMA fan boys to the end with a bitter hatred of the martial arts they started in as kids so long ago. What a sad way to go. So much hate and wasted effort. What is the point?