The most controversial TCMA system [Archive]

YouKnowWho

09-01-2013, 12:03 PM

jdhowland

09-01-2013, 12:12 PM

Only if that front foot has just swept his legs.

SavvySavage

09-01-2013, 01:43 PM

I found this picture in another forum.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1235937_160441620813030_2046859185_n.jpg

The Bagua system may be the most controversial TCMA system that exist on this planet. This is a good example that when you mix "combat" and "health", it may not always make sense. It's not hard to see from the following pictures.

Will you stand in front of your opponent like this in combat? If you don't, why do you want to spend time to train it? Besides wasting your training time, the moment that you have developed "bad habit" like this, it's very difficult to remove it later on.

Your thought?

You aren't meant to stand in front of your opponent in this posture as an en guarde move. The movement starts at your center line and then moves horizontally out with you looking at the circle. The end position isn't important. Rather its the motion which is teaching you to exert force horizontally. You're meant to apply this horizontal, vertical, and oblique(combination of horizontal and vertical) energy to your opponent while engaging in technique.

mawali

09-01-2013, 02:09 PM

CMA fellows mistake form and function regarding baquazhang and utility. Health is good for those who lack the attributes of a fighter but the best example I have seen is He Jinghan along with a small few and they are rare, indeed!

pazman

09-01-2013, 02:39 PM

I once heard Baguazhang was a combination of circle walking from daoist traditions and luohanquan. I've trained in both, separately. I was quite shocked to see bagua people running circles around each other without an ounce of proper fighting skills.

I think I'll pass on baguazhang.:o

YouKnowWho

09-01-2013, 02:56 PM

The movement starts at your center line and then moves horizontally out with you looking at the circle.
In the following clip at 0.30 and 0.40, you can see that you will sweep your opponent's leading leg when he tries to move his leading leg closer to his back leg. This is the simple principle that if your opponent wants to reduce his base area (defined by his feet), you will help him to reduce it even more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUnkPZSgHCY

My concern is when your back foot, front foot, and your opponent are on a straight line, if you want to move into his side door, will you move your front foot first or will you move your back foot first?

I believe Bagua guys will move their front foot first. This will cause 'legs crossing" which will give your opponent an opportunity to sweep you.

Here is the difference.

- If you move your back foot first, the distance between you and your opponent has not been changed. If your opponent's can't reach you before, he still can't reach you now. So when you move your back foot first, you have not committed yourself on anything. You don't have to take any risk.

- This is not the case when your move your front foot first. The moment that you move your front foot, the distance between you and your opponent has been changes. Your opponent may not be able to reach you before, he may be able to reach you now. So when you move your front foot, you have committed yourself right at that moment. You have to take the risk to be swept.

Do you want to give your opponent a chance to attack you while you can't attack him (when you move your front foot first)? Or do you want to give yourself a chance to attack your opponent, at the same time that you don't create any chance for him to attack you (when you move your back foot first)?

I like to align my back foot, my opponent's front foot, and his back foot in a straight line when I attack. This way, no matter how my opponent may move his leading foot, his leading leg will always be under my attacking range. In order to do so, I always have to move my back foot first (to do the alignment). If I cross train the Bagua system, the basic Bagua footwork will contradict against my bread and butter footwork. I don't see any reason for me to do that.

SavvySavage

09-01-2013, 03:34 PM

In the following clip at 0.30 and 0.40, you can see that you will sweep your opponent's leading leg when he tries to move his leading leg closer to his back leg. This is the simple principle that if your opponent wants to reduce his base area (defined by his feet), you will help him to reduce it even more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUnkPZSgHCY

My concern is when your back foot, front foot, and your opponent are on a straight line, if you want to move into his side door, will you move your front foot first or will you move your back foot first?

I believe Bagua guys will move their front foot first. This will cause 'legs crossing" which will give your opponent an opportunity to sweep you.

Here is the difference.

- If you move your back foot first, the distance between you and your opponent has not been changed. If your opponent's can't reach you before, he still can't reach you now. So when you move your back foot first, you have not committed yourself on anything. You don't have to take any risk.

- This is not the case when your move your front foot first. The moment that you move your front foot, the distance between you and your opponent has been changes. Your opponent may not be able to reach you before, he may be able to reach you now. So when you move your front foot, you have committed yourself right at that moment. You have to take the risk to be swept.

Do you want to give your opponent a chance to attack you while you can't attack him (when you move your front foot first)? Or do you want to give yourself a chance to attack your opponent, at the same time that you don't create any chance for him to attack you (when you move your back foot first)?

I like to align my back foot, my opponent's front foot, and his back foot in a straight line when I attack. This way, no matter how my opponent may move his leading foot, his leading leg will always be under my attacking range. In order to do so, I always have to move my back foot first (to do the alignment). If I cross train the Bagua system, the basic Bagua footwork will contradict against my bread and butter footwork. I don't see any reason for me to do that.

I don't think you were meant to use the form as is. Otherwise there is little room for different techniques. If you look the form as ways off moving it will make more sense. Dong taught his disciples, who were already masters,the single palm change and double palm change and told them to apply these horizontal, vertical, and oblique energies into their current martial arts.

mickey

09-01-2013, 03:38 PM

Greetings,

Here is Lyte Burley working the single palm change he took down Maoshan with.

@00:45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nBkexsZrvE

We also have to keep in mind that the mud wading step was innovated from Xingyi.

mickey

YouKnowWho

09-01-2013, 03:44 PM

to apply these horizontal, vertical, and oblique energies into their current martial arts.

This statement is a bit too "abstract". Could you map it into more plain English? An example will be helpful.

YouKnowWho

09-01-2013, 03:50 PM

We also have to keep in mind that the mud wading step was innovated from Xingyi.

The Bagua Kou Bu and Bai Bu came from SC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmIhjlPTRCI&feature=youtu.be

ngokfei

09-02-2013, 08:15 AM

The Bagua Kou Bu and Bai Bu came from SC

:rolleyes:

and the proof is???????

SavvySavage

09-02-2013, 08:27 AM

The Bagua Kou Bu and Bai Bu came from SC

:rolleyes:

and the proof is???????

I don't believe this to be true at all. This move came from that style blah blah. They all have the same stuff.

Kou bu(turning the foot in) and bai bu(turning the foot out) are in all styles. It can't have come from sj because ba gua doesn't use it the same way. I'd argue that ba gua doesn't use it at all where as in sj they hook with it and turn out to complete throws. In ba gua they do it a lot in the forms....which is about it. To say that kou bu and bai bu come from sj is insulting to sj. No offense.

In ba gua kou bu and bai bu are done in the forms to teach students to load power into the hip like a spring and then unload it. It is also a health exercise used to "open" up the hip. In other words doing the move loosens the gluteus muscles and helps adjust a hip that is stuck or too tight. I have never seen it used in actual application though.

SavvySavage

09-02-2013, 08:29 AM

This statement is a bit too "abstract". Could you map it into more plain English? An example will be helpful.

Hip throw is an example of vertical energy. The vertical energy trained in ba gua is meant to be drawn out and used for any vertical move not just the move you see in the form.

Does ba gua train it this way? Maybe, maybe not.

YouKnowWho

09-02-2013, 10:45 AM

The Bagua Kou Bu and Bai Bu came from SC

:rolleyes:

and the proof is???????

I don't have any proof. A Bagua instructor told me that. I only know the 8 palms but I no longer train it. I take Bagua teacher's words for it.

18elders

09-02-2013, 11:00 AM

it's easy to make an assumption on an art you have no clue about.
seems you like to troll all the boards and say how everyone else sucks.

crazedjustice88

09-02-2013, 11:16 AM

it's easy to make an assumption on an art you have no clue about.
seems you like to troll all the boards and say how everyone else sucks.

He said a bagua teacher told him. I don't think that counts as trolling if thats true. He was just taking an instructors word for it. Blame the bagua guy for being misinformed if anything.

Again...if its true HAHAHAHA

YouKnowWho

09-02-2013, 11:33 AM

I do see similarity between the following 2 postures.

http://imageshack.us/a/img194/7194/npr0.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img827/5639/68ux.jpg

If the founder of Cheng style Bagua system had "cross trained" the SC system, There was a high possibility that my Bagua instructor friend told me could be true.

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%A8%8B%E5%BB%B7%E8%8F%AF

程廷華（1848年－1900年，字應芳，河北省深縣程家村人，董海川之徒，為程派八卦掌的創始者。

程廷華自幼愛好武術，精通摔跤，因生計入京為學徒，後在北京崇文門外花市四條開設眼鏡舖，綽號「眼鏡程」。

Cheng Tinghua (1848-1900), Ying Fang, Shen County, Hebei province chengjiacun people of Dong Haichuan, He was the Cheng style Bagua founder.

Cheng Tinghua hobby martial arts since childhood, mastered in Chinese wrestling, living in
Beijing as an apprentice, he opened a glasses shop outside of the Beijing chongwenmen, nicknamed "Eye Glasses Cheng".

SavvySavage

09-02-2013, 12:53 PM

ngokfei

09-02-2013, 02:29 PM

I don't have any proof. A Bagua instructor told me that.

oh........:rolleyes:

but quoting a text that states he trained in SC does give pause to think he might of been influenced in his interpretations of Bagua.

now on that note the postures have some similarity but in the end falls to the intent and interpretation which there are many, many, many mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

bawang

09-02-2013, 07:50 PM

bagua was created by a eunuch. train like a eunuch, and you will obtain the characterstics of a eunuch.

David Jamieson

09-03-2013, 05:45 AM

Being a eunuch doesn't make someone unqualified to Kick ass Bawang. Zheng Hi was a eunuch and commanded the greatest fleet the Ming empire ever put forth.

Most all men who were in the inner court and serving the Emperor were eunuchs.

If the characteristics of a Eunuch are this level of accomplishment, perhaps you've forgotten something in your training? lol :p

18elders

09-03-2013, 07:26 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAIR1Fp2iM&feature=c4-overview&list=UUs-TB4nWC4pPDq1KRgS9BoQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k45GeOOz2eY&feature=c4-overview&list=UUs-TB4nWC4pPDq1KRgS9BoQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6tvS5jQ-FE&list=UUs-TB4nWC4pPDq1KRgS9BoQ

ma pai bagua

Alex Córdoba

09-10-2013, 12:47 PM

bawang

09-10-2013, 12:51 PM

Do you stand like this in front of an attacker?

I train abs standing up

PROBLEM SOLVED

GeneChing

09-10-2013, 02:20 PM

You got two pages on "The most controversial TCMA system" here and I doubt it'll get that much longer (unless we hijack it with cosplay hottie pics ;)).

IS-Dfr (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32782) has 1252 pages at this count.

WC has a whole god****ed subforum (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=9).

Bagua ain't even in the ballpark when it comes to 'most controversial', YouKnowWho.

Man, I should start a thread about how to properly title threads. ;)

bawang

09-10-2013, 03:23 PM

I think wombat combat is the most controversial tcma system.

GeneChing

09-10-2013, 03:42 PM

Please take that up on the wombat combat thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60254), which at this point is only six posts deep.

That's right. Controversy is measured by how many members bother to post around here.

YouKnowWho

09-10-2013, 04:59 PM

You got two pages on "The most controversial TCMA system" here and I doubt it'll get that much longer (unless we hijack it with cosplay hottie pics ;)).

This thread is for those who is interested only. :D

Unless you train "foot sweep", otherwise you may not care about this subject. When you train your foot sweep, you will notice that when and where you and your opponent may land that foot is very important.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDkyMTIzMDE2.html

You just don't want to give your opponent a chance to do so. The problem is after you have developed your "cross legs" bad habit, it's difficult to remove it.

Kellen Bassette

09-10-2013, 05:14 PM

This thread is for those who is interested only. :D

Sweet Hendrick reference...he's got jokes.... :P

Alex Córdoba

09-11-2013, 06:21 AM

(unless we hijack it with cosplay hottie pics ;)).

I just googled Kung fu hottie and every image with a hottie holding a sword is from this forum :)

David Jamieson

09-11-2013, 07:02 AM

I just googled Kung fu hottie and every image with a hottie holding a sword is from this forum :)

Ta Dah!

..........

GeneChing

09-11-2013, 09:23 AM

I just googled Kung fu hottie and every image with a hottie holding a sword is from this forum :)
Actually, almost all of those pix are poached off other sites, but we're glad to receive the traffic.

David Jamieson

09-12-2013, 11:48 AM

I'm gonna go ahead and say it because it's true.

The most controversial TCMA system for all time will always be Shaolin.
Why? Because it's legit and there is a lot of not legit Shaolin out there.
It has more ponderings, writings, heroes, advocates, nay sayers, haters, lovers etc and is more widely known by the general populace without even practicing or knowing what it is.

My moms friends know what shaolin is without knowing what it is. lol

Say bagua to an uninitiated one and you'll get a "what?, Bag what?"
Say Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Tong Long etc and you will get the same wtf look.

But say Shaolin and pretty much anyone knows about it and has a view no matter how small, how wrong, how right or how large. lol

GeneChing

09-12-2013, 12:03 PM

I honestly love the controversy surrounding Shaolin. It's fascinating on so many levels. The controversy keeps me engaged.

But back on topic...

The Bagua system may be the most controversial TCMA system that exist on this planet.
This post began with YKW's questioning of the twisted Bagua stance shown here:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1235937_160441620813030_2046859185_n.jpg
A common misconception about form practice arises the inability to visualize the position and attitude of the opponent. Grabbing some pose from a form out of the context of the form can elicit such views. A few have already commented with observations that this stance is adopted just after a sweep and that is indeed, one of the ciphers here. There are others, but that's the easiest one. What makes this confounding is that most of the most dramatic poses of Kung Fu are from unusual martial moves where you really need to see the opponent for them to make any sense. Tai Chi's Snake Creeps Down is a classic example. It's a cool pose, but if you don't see the ankle pick in it, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Bagua's twisting is the key. To be a decent Bagua player, you need the flexibility to twist your hips one way and your shoulder girdle the other way. When you can do that, it opens up a lot of range, particularly for flanking moves. Bagua strikes from the flanks. That's why all the circling. In this way, it's a little like drunken style. It's sort of a sucker punch strategy. If your a trained fighter, you can see through what they are doing and dial in on them to diffuse the 'trick', which is why neither will ever excel in the cage. But only a few of us live in cages. ;)

YouKnowWho

09-12-2013, 01:00 PM

But only a few of us live in cages. ;)
When you train Taiji "Snake Creeps Down", you can straight your knee and point sideway.

http://imageshack.us/a/img13/2466/1rx6.jpg

You can also bend your knee and point upward.

http://imageshack.us/a/img33/5343/x7hf.jpg

Which one is more risky?

If you train for

- "health", it won't make any difference because the word "opponent" has no meaning to you.
- "combat", you should always assume that your "opponent" is standing right in front of you.

You may not live in cage, but to train for "combat" and to train for "health" are different. "Combat" application is the only valid guideline for TCMA training. Without it, the TCMA can be evolved into pure dancing.

-N-

09-12-2013, 01:12 PM

When you train Taiji "Snake Creeps Down", you can straight your knee and point sideway.

http://imageshack.us/a/img13/2466/1rx6.jpg

You can also bend your knee and point upward.

http://imageshack.us/a/img33/5343/x7hf.jpg

Which one is more risky?

Just use Chi Blast when the guy tries to drop on the side of your knee :)

David Jamieson

09-12-2013, 01:15 PM

Just use Chi Blast when the guy tries to drop on the side of your knee :)

By the time you are at SCD, the opponent in question has been taken down anyway.

Alex Córdoba

09-12-2013, 01:28 PM

David Jamieson

09-12-2013, 01:41 PM

Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Tong Long etc... didn't have David Carradine.

This is true.
The popular mythos will always be what it is.
Real learning is more esoteric even with popular arts. (100 students and really only 5 of them are any good and of those 1 is superior to the rest)
Elite athletes and practitioners are extremely rare.

To be fair, all these styles are from Shaolin.
So, there's that. :)

Jimbo

09-12-2013, 01:56 PM

Say bagua to an uninitiated one and you'll get a "what?, Bag what?"
Say Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Tong Long etc and you will get the same wtf look.

I'll bet the looks you get from saying those aren't as bad as when you say 'Choy Lee Fut'. "What-what-what? Bok Choy Fooooot?" Easy to say correctly but they still mangle the name/pronunciation. Which is why I very rarely mention my style's name, unless someone is knowledgeable about CMA, on the rare occasions I even discuss MA at all anymore. I rarely do so outside of this forum, and I never initiate a conversation about it.

YouKnowWho

09-12-2013, 02:44 PM

I'll bet the looks you get from saying those aren't as bad as when you say 'Choy Lee Fut'. "What-what-what? Bok Choy Fooooot?" Easy to say correctly but they still mangle the name/pronunciation. Which is why I very rarely mention my style's name, unless someone is knowledgeable about CMA, on the rare occasions I even discuss MA at all anymore. I rarely do so outside of this forum, and I never initiate a conversation about it.

In a Karate forum someone starts a thread, "Your favorite style." I stated that I like the praying mantis style. Many people added their opinions to it. Last time I checked that thread, all posts that mentioned "praying mantis" were deleted. Worst than that, the moderator even posted the following:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This thread has been re-opened following removal of all the off topic praying mantis posts, which have been shifted into their own (currently closed) thread.

Please keep on topic in this thread. Any efforts to bring the discussion back to praying mantis will be deleted and may result in a ban.

Kellen Bassette

09-12-2013, 04:23 PM

Your just stirring up controversy all over the internet, aren't you?

bawang

09-12-2013, 05:08 PM

can steroids improve iron plam trainging?

SavvySavage

09-12-2013, 09:38 PM

I honestly love the controversy surrounding Shaolin. It's fascinating on so many levels. The controversy keeps me engaged.

But back on topic...

This post began with YKW's questioning of the twisted Bagua stance shown here:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1235937_160441620813030_2046859185_n.jpg
A common misconception about form practice arises the inability to visualize the position and attitude of the opponent. Grabbing some pose from a form out of the context of the form can elicit such views. A few have already commented with observations that this stance is adopted just after a sweep and that is indeed, one of the ciphers here. There are others, but that's the easiest one. What makes this confounding is that most of the most dramatic poses of Kung Fu are from unusual martial moves where you really need to see the opponent for them to make any sense. Tai Chi's Snake Creeps Down is a classic example. It's a cool pose, but if you don't see the ankle pick in it, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Bagua's twisting is the key. To be a decent Bagua player, you need the flexibility to twist your hips one way and your shoulder girdle the other way. When you can do that, it opens up a lot of range, particularly for flanking moves. Bagua strikes from the flanks. That's why all the circling. In this way, it's a little like drunken style. It's sort of a sucker punch strategy. If your a trained fighter, you can see through what they are doing and dial in on them to diffuse the 'trick', which is why neither will ever excel in the cage. But only a few of us live in cages. ;)

I don't believe the side guard position was meant to be taken literally as a technique. If it was then ba gua is doomed because its easy to see where you will end up.

When you walk the circle your are practicing avoiding the opponents force similar to side stepping in wing chun or counter punching with left hand left foot forward. In the second example you punch with your left as the other right punches with his right: as you punch you step in with you left leg and then step behind the left leg with your right. This will move you out of the way of his incoming punch. Ba gua seeks to avoid force and then attack in his weak 45 degree angle. This attack involves "wrapping" the opponent or in lamens terms grappling of some kind mixed with close striking.

First you must orbit the center and then you must become the center. Wing chun tries to do this but with smaller movements. The issue is that ba gua people overtrain the solo circle walking at the expense of other training.

jimbob

09-13-2013, 12:32 AM

I'm jumping in only because I like what I see from bagua and would like to train it one day for my own interest.

I know nothing about it.

I see that circle walking seems to be very important to the art, but then I read about straight line applications for fighting, and other people say you're crazy if you think circle walking is about fighting tactics.

If I think about circle walking in combat, all I can see is that the person is very open to a takedown (but again - just an inexperienced observation).

The straight line stuff from the Gao school makes a lot more combative sense to me.

If the twisting postures are meant to develop specific body mechanics - are there not more efficient ways to do this? It seems like you have to train the body to move in a VERY unnatural way (twisted, sliding step) in order to develop certain qualities. Wouldn't training that is more inline with 'normal' body movement be faster?

I don't know though. I think it would be a nice and interesting aerobic exercise for me when I get bored with running or hitting things.

RenDaHai

09-13-2013, 07:15 AM

Wushu tuojie le.....

In the picture, look at Mr. Wang, bottom left.

This is the step immediately before the crossed step the others are displaying. The crossed step has just reacted to a movement of the opponent, it is dynamic and not held.

Mr. Wang is in the standard seven star guard, the only change being he is across the line of attack, so his body is completely side on. Body across the line of attack, CeShenFa, Is common to most styles.

It is difficult to understand because it relies on defence. The opponent wants something from you, you need nothing from him. It is not so understandable from the point of view of the Leitai.

YouKnowWho

09-13-2013, 11:46 AM

you're crazy if you think circle walking is about fighting tactics.

Circle walking is an excellent combat strategy. A boxer will keep moving toward your side door so your powerful cross will be jammed by your own leading arm.

It's even used more in grappling. If you can use circle walking to drag your opponent with you, you can take advantage on his weight shifting (either fight against you or yield into you). When you do that, you will need to shift your body weight on your back leg.

You don't need to keep moving in circle. All you need is just that "1 step". If you can move your back foot to be on the same line of your opponent's feet (this will require you to move you back foot first), When you move in your front foot to "shoot" at your opponent's leading leg, no matter how your opponent may move, his leading leg will always be under your attacking range. If your opponent is moving with you, you may need more than that "1 step".

In the following clip, you can see that your feet and your opponent's feet all line up in a straight line during shooting. Of course if you can move behind your opponent, that will be even better. But in reality, it's very difficult to achieve that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bGE_SSilJQ&feature=youtu.be

To be able to line up your

- back foot,
- front foot (during shooting),
- opponent's leading foot,
- opponent's back foot,

is important. But the Bagua circle walking just violate this basic "combat" principle.

YouKnowWho

09-13-2013, 12:19 PM

Wushu tuojie le.....

In the picture,...

Which picture?

RenDaHai

09-13-2013, 06:59 PM

Which picture?

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/1235937_160441620813030_2046859185_n.jpg

Mr. Wang, bottom left.

YouKnowWho

09-13-2013, 07:57 PM

Mr. Wang, bottom left.

That was the only picture that no "cross legs" happened. The moment that you have your leg crossed, it's just like to allow your opponent to run behind you. If he shoots at your leading leg at that moment, your leading leg will have no place to "escape".

http://imageshack.us/a/img802/6077/d1bq.png

EternalSpring

09-13-2013, 11:28 PM

You just don't want to give your opponent a chance to do so. The problem is after you have developed your "cross legs" bad habit, it's difficult to remove it.

Cheng Bagua is not at all my primary art, but I do cross train it, and while I'm still a beginner, my friend I train with has been pretty clear that his sifu taught him that the legs/feet should never cross. But I'm sure there are plenty of varying opinions on that.

jimbob

09-14-2013, 12:26 AM

John

Please don't misquote me. You took what I said out of context.

I admitted at the beginning of my post that I have no experience in bagua and know little about it. I wrote that I had read other people had said walking the circle in combat is crazy.

in your own post you start by saying it's good combat strategy, then finish by saying it violates a basic combat principle. I understand what you're saying, but you see how easily it could be taken out of context.

The '1 step' to the side gate is something I've noticed in the Gao straight line forms that I've seen - and if you re-read my post, I quite explicitly say these make a lot more sense to my untrained eye.

I don't know if you selectively edited my post to add some fire to the conversation or not, but I'm not here to start arguments with anyone.

RenDaHai

09-14-2013, 02:34 AM

That was the only picture that no "cross legs" happened. The moment that you have your leg crossed, it's just like to allow your opponent to run behind you. If he shoots at your leading leg at that moment, your leading leg will have no place to "escape".

http://imageshack.us/a/img802/6077/d1bq.png

Right,

But the crossed stance is freeze frame of a movement. The stance Mr. Wang is in can pause for a time.

Stepping behind a coiled posture is risky, all the spinning movements from this position are fast and powerful and can strike at any level.

This step would usually happen at the edge of his range, not during TieShenKao (leaning against body). If he shoots from a range while you are in the middle of the step, then yeah, it is weak to this, but then you have mis-stepped. It would step as a reaction to his movement, not step across him while he is coiled and waiting to pounce.

It is a way to maintain a completely side on posture while moving laterally. This is a valuable idea and while I do not train BaGua, other northern styles have some similar ideas to this.

SavvySavage

09-14-2013, 04:42 AM

Cheng Bagua is not at all my primary art, but I do cross train it, and while I'm still a beginner, my friend I train with has been pretty clear that his sifu taught him that the legs/feet should never cross. But I'm sure there are plenty of varying opinions on that.

By walking the circle you inevitably cross your legs. You can't walk unless you cross your legs.

pazman

09-14-2013, 10:58 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0BdwbA6h9I

Is the bagua circle walking really used in fights like this?

bawang

09-14-2013, 11:16 AM

By walking the circle you inevitably cross your legs. You can't walk unless you cross your legs.

nope

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2YYBccq3ZVg#t=979

kfman5F

09-14-2013, 11:17 AM

Crispy with mashed potatoes?

bawang

09-14-2013, 11:39 AM

Crispy with mashed potatoes?

before ark wong, I am.

YouKnowWho

09-14-2013, 11:41 AM

John

Please don't misquote me. ... in your own post you start by saying it's good combat strategy, then finish by saying it violates a basic combat principle. I understand what you're saying, but you see how easily it could be taken out of context.
Sorry, I should quote your statement as:

"other people say you're crazy if you think circle walking is about fighting tactics."

It was my mistake by not including "other people say".

The difference is you can "cross your legs " when you are behind of your opponent and not while you are still in front of him. In order to avoid that, you have to move your back foot first.

bawang

09-14-2013, 11:45 AM

Sorry, I should quote your statement as:

"other people say you're crazy if you think circle walking is about fighting tactics."

It was my mistake.

The difference is you can "cross your legs " when you are behind of your opponent and not while you are still in front of him. In order to avoid that, you have to move your back foot first.

circling the opponent is common training in northern kung fu. circle walking is for looking good only and is useless for fighting. it comes from Taoist walking meditation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomX4gESIlM&feature=player_detailpage#t=178

MasterKiller

09-14-2013, 11:52 AM

circling the opponent is common training in northern kung fu. circle walking is for looking good only and is useless for fighting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomX4gESIlM&feature=player_detailpage#t=178

Northern Shaolin footwork is linear. You blast in and retreat straight back.

YouKnowWho

09-14-2013, 11:58 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0BdwbA6h9I

Is the bagua circle walking really used in fights like this?

This is exactly my concern. The moment that you start to feel comfortable with your circle walking, the moment that you may do it sub-consciously without knowing that you are doing it.

The correct way to do your circle walking is

- Your back foot move 1 feet,
- Your front foot moves 3 inches,
- If you have right foot forward, you move your left foot first.

This way, your back foot, your front foot, and your opponent are always in a straight line.

bawang

09-14-2013, 12:00 PM

Northern Shaolin footwork is linear. You blast in and retreat straight back.

just because the form is done in a straight line doesn't mean fighting is done in a straight line.

Kellen Bassette

09-14-2013, 12:07 PM

circling the opponent is common training in northern kung fu. circle walking is for looking good only and is useless for fighting. it comes from Taoist walking meditation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomX4gESIlM&feature=player_detailpage#t=178

That was an excellent video, I like those footwork and conditioning drills...

MasterKiller

09-14-2013, 12:13 PM

just because the form is done in a straight line doesn't mean fighting is done in a straight line.

Nevertheless, circling is not Northen Shaolin strategy. It's not designed for counter punching. Even side stepping is more about setting up striking angles than dodging attacks.

YouKnowWho

09-14-2013, 12:30 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomX4gESIlM&feature=player_detailpage#t=178

At 3.12 when both guys have right foot forward, they move counter-clockwise. To me, they should move clockwise instead. You want to move away from your opponent's powerful cross and not move into it.

kfman5F

09-14-2013, 02:51 PM

before ark wong, I am.

Gene,
I responded in a friendly, funny and non-insulting way to Bawang's post of asking for KFC wings at the alter and this was his insulting response. He likes to insult people and his rude comments are a waste of space on this forum. Most of my posts lately have been to to respond to his a##holiness's remarks to which I regret wasting my time.

After this last insult I will not comment anymore. Nobody here cares what I have to say anyway. He ruins most threads. He is NOT entertaining at all. You have not done anything I have seen to curb this pain in the butt child. I am sure he will make another crude and insulting remark to me but I won't respond and in the end only he will look like the brat he is. I can only hope you will be more responsible in the future for this kind of behavior on your forum.
Jay

MasterKiller

09-14-2013, 03:29 PM

Dude, just block him.

Kellen Bassette

09-14-2013, 05:11 PM

After this last insult I will not comment anymore. Nobody here cares what I have to say anyway. He ruins most threads.
Jay

He posted two good videos that pertained to the discussion.

bawang

09-14-2013, 08:51 PM

Nevertheless, circling is not Northen Shaolin strategy. It's not designed for counter punching. Even side stepping is more about setting up striking angles than dodging attacks.

plum flower post

Robinhood

09-15-2013, 11:55 AM

This is exactly my concern. The moment that you start to feel comfortable with your circle walking, the moment that you may do it sub-consciously without knowing that you are doing it.

The correct way to do your circle walking is

- Your back foot move 1 feet,
- Your front foot moves 3 inches,
- If you have right foot forward, you move your left foot first.

This way, your back foot, your front foot, and your opponent are always in a straight line.

As usual, you are probably looking at literal techniques, and missing the real purpose of what is really trying to be developed . Most training like this is probably supposed to develop the internal core if done properly, but is ussally not done properly, so then, what happens is that it just gets turned into another routine of external development , that develops external techniques.

All external techniques, are just predicated by timing and position, if--then in two dimensions.
What is the third dimension ?

Cheers

bawang

09-15-2013, 03:04 PM

As usual, you are probably looking at literal techniques, and missing the real purpose of what is really trying to be developed . Most training like this is probably supposed to develop the internal core if done properly, but is ussally not done properly, so then, what happens is that it just gets turned into another routine of external development , that develops external techniques.

All external techniques, are just predicated by timing and position, if--then in two dimensions.
What is the third dimension ?

Cheers

kickboxing is in the 11th dimension, beyond the comprehension of your puny, puny mind.

GeneChing

09-16-2013, 08:49 AM

Most of my posts lately have been to to respond to his a##holiness's remarks to which I regret wasting my time. To be honest, that's mostly on you. Most of us have our bawang filters up pretty high. He's like a crazy troll master here, however. Despite his crassness (which indeed may get him banned someday) he will sneak in some useful comments now and again, which is why most of the veterans here tolerate him. He's singled you out a bit and pushed your buttons - troll is as troll does - but think of him as a troll sparring partner. Take your licks, figure out why they penetrated and shore up your defenses. Or, like most people here, just go on offense. In the 36 chambers of the KFM forum, bawang is only the 2nd chamber.

This is in no way an endorsement of bawang.

Nobody here cares what I have to say anyway. That attitude is the real issue here. If you care about if the forum cares about what you post, you'll always be troll meat.

Dude, just block him.
:)

-N-

09-16-2013, 09:02 AM

In the 36 chambers of the KFM forum, bawang is only the 2nd chamber.

I don't literally LOL very often, but that one did it :)

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 10:24 AM

plum flower post

How would you find the plum flower posts capable of teaching this if all you train on them is the lohan stance work? I know the lohan is what all shaolin people use and its difficult to "encircle" someone with footwork from that. Hung Gar people are the main example of this. I guess it can be done but its much slower than say the white crane footwork if your wanting to circle the opponent.

bawang

09-16-2013, 10:40 AM

How would you find the plum flower posts capable of teaching this if all you train on them is the lohan stance work? I know the lohan is what all shaolin people use and its difficult to "encircle" someone with footwork from that. Hung Gar people are the main example of this. I guess it can be done but its much slower than say the white crane footwork if your wanting to circle the opponent.

northern kung fu engage at 7 to 18 feet. southern kung fu engage at 1 feet.

circle walking is a very simple concept that if you walk around your opponent and force him to turn to face you, he can get dizzy and his footwork can get loose.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 10:50 AM

northern kung fu engage at 7 to 18 feet. southern kung fu engage at 1 feet.

What? Sorry, I dont train northern. Can you explain?

circle walking is a very simple concept that if you walk around your opponent and force him to turn to face you, he can get dizzy and his footwork can get loose.

That sounds...interesting...I have never heard of that approach to circle walking. How long do you plan on doing that till he gets confused and his footwork gets lazy? I would assume that would take a while all the while he isn't attacking you.

bawang

09-16-2013, 11:00 AM

What? Sorry, I dont train northern. Can you explain?.
northern kung fu really really far away, southern kung fu stand real close.

That sounds...interesting...I have never heard of that approach to circle walking. How long do you plan on doing that till he gets confused and his footwork gets lazy? I would assume that would take a while all the while he isn't attacking you.

go try yourself.

YouKnowWho

09-16-2013, 11:04 AM

if you walk around your opponent and force him to turn to face you, he can get dizzy and his footwork can get loose.

Agree with you on this. If you are not used to spin with your opponent, you will get that dizzy feeling soon. It's a good strategy.

GeneChing

09-16-2013, 11:07 AM

I don't literally LOL very often, but that one did it :)
Nice! Nominate me for quote of the week (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66450) then. :cool:

northern kung fu engage at 7 to 18 feet. southern kung fu engage at 1 feet. That's just because we northerners engage with spears. Honestly, where did you come up with that one? I'd add that KFM forum members engage at 10,000 miles. :p

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 11:08 AM

northern kung fu really really far away, southern kung fu stand real close.

Okay, but theres only so long that the human body can "stretch". UNLESS YOUR IN THE FANTASTIC FOUR!!!

go try yourself.

I'm sorry, if you can get it to work then that's awesome, but I would rather just use the kay men bo and destroy my opponent. I don't want to sit there and wait till my opponent "looks" like he is starting to get dizzy. At this point its just becoming bagua.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 11:09 AM

Agree with you on this. If you are not used to spin with your opponent, you will get that dizzy feeling soon. It's a good strategy.

How so? Again, how long do you plan on spinning before actually engaging? At the same time, wouldn't the opponent just come in and hit you or just walk away since he doesn't feel like watching someone walk in straight up circles? I would just get bored and walk away.

bawang

09-16-2013, 11:11 AM

That's just because we northerners engage with spears. Honestly, where did you come up with that one? I'd add that KFM forum members engage at 10,000 miles. :p

1900 article on boxing, answering the difference between northern and southern kung fu
How so? Again, how long do you plan on spinning before actually engaging? At the same time, wouldn't the opponent just come in and hit you or just walk away since he doesn't feel like watching someone walk in straight up circles? I would just get bored and walk away.

did you even watch my dam video, you don't walk around your opponent, you shuffle in a fighting stance

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 11:16 AM

did you even watch my dam video, you don't walk around your opponent, you shuffle in a fighting stance

How does shuffling translate from the skills acquired from the mui fah? You don't shuffle on the mui fah bawang. Also, again, if your just shuffling around the opponent then again, how long does it take for them to actually get dizzy? Thats what I'm saying. I would assume it takes a while. I was talking about the skills acquired from the mui fah as you posted so thats what I was asking. Again, shuffling is not learned on the mui fah. The mui fah is teach different stepping patterns and train different body mechanics. Not shuffling...

GeneChing

09-16-2013, 11:20 AM

1900 article on boxing, answering the difference between northern and southern kung fu Can you be more specific?

bawang

09-16-2013, 11:23 AM

How does shuffling translate from the skills acquired from the mui fah? You don't shuffle on the mui fah bawang. Also, again, if your just shuffling around the opponent then again, how long does it take for them to actually get dizzy? Thats what I'm saying. I would assume it takes a while. I was talking about the skills acquired from the mui fah as you posted so thats what I was asking. Again, shuffling is not learned on the mui fah. The mui fah is teach different stepping patterns and train different body mechanics. Not shuffling...

plum flower pole is a stability pole. it makes your footwork more stable.

Can you be more specific?

it said ten plus a few

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 11:28 AM

plum flower pole is a stability pole. it makes your footwork more stable.

I know, but in response to a poster that was saying that northern didn't have circling footwork, you responded with the mui fah posts. This is what I am asking. In regards to your statement on the mui fah, what does northern shaolin train on the mui fah that would teach the encircling footwork?

I know shuffling can be used for that, but that strays away to your answer to him of the mui fah. Thats what I'm trying to figure out. Again, I don't do northern so thats why I'm asking.

bawang

09-16-2013, 11:31 AM

In regards to your statement on the mui fah, what does northern shaolin train on the mui fah that would teach the encircling footwork?

walk in circles

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 11:36 AM

walk in circles

Now our conversation is going in circles. You just said that you wouldn't do that and bash bagua for doing it. So how are you now saying that it trains proper footwork? I'm confused.

bawang

09-16-2013, 11:37 AM

Now our conversation is going in circles. You just said that you wouldn't do that and bash bagua for doing it. So how are you now saying that it trains proper footwork? I'm confused.

I didn't bash bagua. I said to separate form and drills from fighting. plum flower pole cant shuffle for safety. bagua walks for beauty.

bagua circle walking is plum flower post training without the post. it has none of the benefits of stability pole training but all the faults from crossing the legs, and focusing on beautfy

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 11:41 AM

I didn't bash bagua. I said to separate form and drills from fighting. plum flower pole cant shuffle for safety. bagua walks for beauty.

bagua circle walking is plum flower post training without the post

Okay, then I apologize for misreading. Still though, how would you use the circle walking in combat? I honestly have no idea since I don't train it, thats why I'm asking.

bawang

09-16-2013, 11:44 AM

Okay, then I apologize for misreading. Still though, how would you use the circle walking in combat? I honestly have no idea since I don't train it, thats why I'm asking.
circling in form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2YYBccq3ZVg#t=979

circling in combat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomX4gESIlM&feature=player_detailpage#t=178

YouKnowWho

09-16-2013, 11:50 AM

wouldn't the opponent just come in and hit you...
Of course your opponent can attack you. I believe that's exactly what you want him to do. The purpose of your circling walking may just want to trigger your opponent to commit on something, so you can take advantage on it. Just like a groin kick, it's a strategy.

you don't walk around your opponent, you shuffle in a fighting stance
You have just hit the nail on the head.

I like to use this strategy. My circle walking is different from the Bagua circle walking. I will move the following way:

http://imageshack.us/a/img864/8041/circlerunningr.jpg

1. Move my back foot (about 1 foot distance) to be on line with my opponent's both feet.
2. If my opponent doesn't spin with me, I'll attack him right at that moment.
3. If my opponent spins with me, I will move my leading foot (about 3 inch distance) so my back foot, my leading foot, and my opponent's leading foot will be in a straight line. I then move my back foot again (go back to step 1).

In the whole process, my legs will never be crossed in front of my opponent. I'll constantly look for that opportunity that my back foot and my opponent's feet are on a straight line.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 11:52 AM

circling in form
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=2YYBccq3ZVg#t=979

circling in combat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IomX4gESIlM&feature=player_detailpage#t=178

Okay, then let me ask this. Do you guys even do the circle walking that you do on the mui fah in combat or no? I know people shuffle, its a very common tactic to reset your position or try to find a new one, but I'm talking about what you do on the mui fah. At least in my mind and at my school, everything we do in the forms we do in the fights as well, so I was just wondering what and how you use circle walking in fights.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 11:53 AM

Of course your opponent can attack you. I believe that's exactly what you want him to do. The purpose of your circling walking may just want to trigger your opponent to commit on something so you can take advantage on it. Just like a groin kick, it's a strategy.

Uhuh...I know this, I was commenting on the whole dizzying up the opponent thing. But you are right in that sometimes people like to sit back and wait for the opponent.

bawang

09-16-2013, 12:03 PM

Okay, then let me ask this. Do you guys even do the circle walking that you do on the mui fah in combat or no? I know people shuffle, its a very common tactic to reset your position or try to find a new one, but I'm talking about what you do on the mui fah. At least in my mind and at my school, everything we do in the forms we do in the fights as well, so I was just wondering what and how you use circle walking in fights.

I do the drill as shown in video.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 12:07 PM

I do the drill as shown in video.

Okay, then why do northern shaolin people train it on the posts? What does that teach and do they use it in fighting?

bawang

09-16-2013, 12:08 PM

Okay, then why do northern shaolin people train it on the posts? What does that teach and do they use it in fighting?

to train stability.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 12:13 PM

to train stability. footwork on the pole carries over to footwork on the ground.

Okay, but do they use that exact stepping pattern in combat?

bawang

09-16-2013, 12:13 PM

Okay, but do they use that exact stepping pattern in combat?

no and neither does yours.

GeneChing

09-16-2013, 12:19 PM

1900 article on boxing, answering the difference between northern and southern kung fu What is the source of the 19th century article?

it said ten plus a few And from that you drew this?

northern kung fu engage at 7 to 18 feet.
That's like answering the question of how many are in a baker's dozen by saying 'about 7 or 18'. :rolleyes:

bawang

09-16-2013, 12:21 PM

What is the source of the 19th century article?

And from that you drew this?

That's like answering the question of how many are in a baker's dozen by saying 'about 7 or 18'. :rolleyes:
guide to boxing by unknown author.

in hongquan the boxing distance is the same as spear distance. since spear ranges from 7 feet to 18 feet, I said so. since traditional lei tai is 20 to 30 feet wide, its ten and a few feet.
since that article said longfist is like jousting with the fists I assume the guy meant the same thing.

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes:

YouKnowWho

09-16-2013, 12:23 PM

northern kung fu engage at 7 to 18 feet.

There are a move in

- Gong Li Quan that you can use it to jump in 12 - 15 feet.
- 1st road Mai Fu Quan that you can use it to jump back 12 - 15 feet.

I used to take these 2 moves out of the forms and used it as "entering" and "retreating".

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 12:24 PM

no and neither does yours.

Hahaha, yeah we do. Every pattern we use on the mui fah, we use in combat dude. Or else why would we train it? Thats why we use the kay men bo and the mui fah is the "secret" to it. Thats why I was asking.

Every step, every direction, every angle. All of that is what our fighting looks like and thats why its such a HUGE part of our training.

bawang

09-16-2013, 12:28 PM

Hahaha, yeah we do. Every pattern we use on the mui fah, we use in combat dude. Or else why would we train it? Thats why we use the kay men bo and the mui fah is the "secret" to it. Thats why I was asking.

Every step, every direction, every angle. All of that is what our fighting looks like and thats why its such a HUGE part of our training.

you cannot train combat footwork on a pole.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 12:30 PM

you cannot train combat footwork on a pole.

Oh yee of little faith...hahaha

-N-

09-16-2013, 12:31 PM

northern kung fu engage at 7 to 18 feet.

Praying Mantis agrees here.

GeneChing

09-16-2013, 12:32 PM

guide to boxing by unknown author.
What are the Chinese characters for this? Where might I find it?

since traditional lei tai is 20 to 30 feet wide, its ten and a few feet.
Wait now, that logic fails me. By that logic, a boxing ring is usually 16 to 25 feet wide, so boxing range is 8 to a dozen feet, plus change. And the UFC octagon is 30 feet across so the MMA range is 15 feet.

since that article said longfist is like jousting with the fists I assume the guy meant the same thing. Did China even have jousting? Surely that's a translation error.

bawang

09-16-2013, 12:34 PM

What are the Chinese characters for this? Where might I find it?

its on my other computer. I find it later. its on a book called essential collections of Chinese martial art manuals

Did China even have jousting? Surely that's a translation error.

a spear charge is where two guys take a running charge toward each other and smash into one another. on the lei tai two fighters begin by charging into one another. you can see this in sumo today.

Oh yee of little faith...hahaha

show me video of you doing footwork and I will show you video of me doing footwork.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 01:15 PM

show me video of you doing footwork and I will show you video of me doing footwork.

Level 1 training (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N1_GiNA98g)

Single Wing Flip form (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIKstOPa9Sw)

Form with footwork (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iStiduwjAeo)

See? We use the footwork off of the poles in what we do. If we didn't...why would we do it? Thats what makes hop gar so special is the different footwork, or kay men bo as it translates. This is how we are able to punish so even with gigantic swinging motions and not "be seen from miles away".

David Jamieson

09-16-2013, 01:23 PM

Lucas

09-16-2013, 01:29 PM

i place bet says bawang pm him a vid and keep honer

Sima Rong

09-16-2013, 01:53 PM

So if wingchun trains long poles, it is also a long range style? ;)

David Jamieson

09-16-2013, 01:57 PM

i place bet says bawang pm him a vid and keep honer

I hope that isn't a typo! :eek:

Lucas

09-16-2013, 01:59 PM

my typeing ans spellign skills are prefect. i do not mistake.

bawang

09-16-2013, 05:23 PM

Level 1 training (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N1_GiNA98g)

Single Wing Flip form (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIKstOPa9Sw)

Form with footwork (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iStiduwjAeo)

See? We use the footwork off of the poles in what we do. If we didn't...why would we do it? Thats what makes hop gar so special is the different footwork, or kay men bo as it translates. This is how we are able to punish so even with gigantic swinging motions and not "be seen from miles away".

this is you?

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 05:35 PM

this is you?

My sihings. Obviously you would like some advanced practitioners doing it right?

If you don't want to post a video of you, thats cool, but at least someone from your school? Whether or not its me is irrelevant though, this is what we train and that is why.

bawang

09-16-2013, 05:39 PM

My sihings. Obviously you would like some advanced practitioners doing it right?

If you don't want to post a video of you, thats cool, but at least someone from your school? Whether or not its me is irrelevant though, this is what we train and that is why.

I am taught by jesus. I am the only one of my lineage.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 05:40 PM

I am taught by jesus. I am the only one of my lineage.

I'm sure you are...well, you gonna show anything?

bawang

09-16-2013, 05:44 PM

I'm sure you are...well, you gonna show anything?

r u gonna show anything

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 05:51 PM

r u gonna show anything

Really? Wow...sorry dude, you have already seen my schools teachings, its the exact same on me. The only difference is that my sifu wanted the sihings to be the ones shown. What you see them do is what I do.

So just show us your schools teachings. You come on here and troll so many people and yet your cornered and won't fess up anything. You do have some decent knowledge, but coming online and talking about different things with no actual proof of anything can only go so far. I'm sure you actually have skills so please just show us rather than responding with condescending jokes and laughing at posters.

If you play that card, then I play this one...

BLUE EYES WHITE DRAGON!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

*yugioh reference for anyone who doesn't get it*

bawang

09-16-2013, 05:59 PM

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 06:01 PM

I learned tai chi from an illegal immigrant at ymca. I am in my underwear watching the porno right now, if u make webcam film yourself I will webcam myself in my underwear right now do some hung kuen.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Sorry everybody, thats the end of it. To think, we could have seen the troll prove to us all that hes a beast but sadly...:( that won't be the case.

RIP to the chance of seeing bawang actually do something cool.

We shall miss you...

bawang

09-16-2013, 06:04 PM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Sorry everybody, thats the end of it. To think, we could have seen the troll prove to us all that hes a beast but sadly...:( that won't be the case.

RIP to the chance of seeing bawang actually do something cool.

We shall miss you...

dood ur asking me to make a video right here right now, and u don't wanna do sh1t. if u don't wanna do sh1t I don't do sh1t, there will be no sh1tting.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 06:09 PM

dood ur asking me to make a video right here right now, and u don't wanna do sh1t. if u don't wanna do sh1t I don't do sh1t, there will be no sh1tting.

I already showed you what we do bawang and how we translate the training into combat, don't get into semantics, now you just look pathetic hahahahahaha the only difference is that it will be a less pretty face. I'll tell you what, go to the link in my subscription and imagine the face you see there on the bodies that you saw in the videos. Hahahahahaha sorry bro, there is no coming back from this for you.

bawang

09-16-2013, 06:13 PM

I already showed you what we do bawang and how we translate the training into combat, don't get into semantics, now you just look pathetic hahahahahaha the only difference is that it will be a less pretty face. I'll tell you what, go to the link in my subscription and imagine the face you see there on the bodies that you saw in the videos. Hahahahahaha sorry bro, there is no coming back from this for you.

I showed video of me to plenty people on this forum. u scare to show u self, u scare for me.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 06:15 PM

I showed video of me to plenty people on this forum. ur big hairy poosy, u scare to show u self, u scare for me.

Hahahaha, your a funny dude. Naw, everybody can see me. Just look at my signature link. Sorry dude, my skin seems to be a little thicker than yours. Jacking off 10 times a day seems to have paid off hahaha

bawang

09-16-2013, 06:17 PM

Hahahaha, your a funny dude. Naw, everybody can see me. Just look at my signature link. Sorry dude, my skin seems to be a little thicker than yours. Jacking off 10 times a day seems to have paid off hahaha

i offered to do video of each other, you declined. you lose internet fight.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 06:20 PM

i offered to do video of each other, you declined. you lose internet fight.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'm sure thats right bawang, because thats important...HAHAHAHAHAHA

You know what bawang? You win, hahaha you are the most prominent troll and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You aim for anything else? Don't bother, you have found your true calling my friend hahaha

bawang

09-16-2013, 06:21 PM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'm sure thats right bawang, because thats important...HAHAHAHAHAHA

You know what bawang? You win, hahaha you are the most prominent troll and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. You aim for anything else? Don't bother, you have found your true calling my friend hahaha

if i do hung gar, u will drop to ur knees and cry because how beautiful it is. wong fei hong music will play from invisible clock radio. u will quit kung fu from shame for u inferior dirty hung gar.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 06:25 PM

if i do hung gar, u will drop to ur knees and cry because how beautiful it is. wong fei hong music will play from invisible clock radio. u will quit kung fu from shame for u inferior dirty hung gar.

Your right bro, I do inferior hung gar...because I do hop gar hahahahaha

Heres a helpful hint. Before you go on insulting people, feel free to at least do some research. hahahaha

-N-

09-16-2013, 06:29 PM

For your entertainment.

http://youtu.be/f4vhVfMXUFk

Even WFH theme must evolve.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 06:32 PM

For your entertainment.

http://youtu.be/f4vhVfMXUFk

Even WFH theme must evolve.

Hahaha, that's definitely interesting.

Bawang, if you have this playing behind you, while I'm bowing I might also have groove a little bit. ONLY IF ITS OKAY WITH YOU THOUGH!!!

bawang

09-16-2013, 06:34 PM

Your right bro, I do inferior hung gar...because I do hop gar hahahahaha

Heres a helpful hint. Before you go on insulting people, feel free to at least do some research. hahahaha

wat u scare of? i will show video of me any time anywhere. i not scare. if u post video of urself doing dirty hippity hoopity gar, i will post video of me doing hung gar single shoe form. i will do it shirtless , poosy.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 06:36 PM

wat u scare of? i will show video of me any time anywhere. i not scare. if u post video of urself doing dirty hippity hoopity gar, i will post video of me doing hung gar single shoe form.

Sorry bro, all the trash talking is just sad, I have no reason to. What I showed you was exactly what you wanted to see. I'm sorry man, its done.

bawang

09-16-2013, 07:25 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8cdF7Mg8oc

i own you now. i make love to you, like a woman.

Kellen Bassette

09-16-2013, 07:36 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8cdF7Mg8oc

i own you now. i make love to you, like a woman.

well that was odd....

Raipizo

09-16-2013, 07:44 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8cdF7Mg8oc

i own you now. i make love to you, like a woman.

I like your iron shoe style, very deadly.

SavvySavage

09-16-2013, 08:10 PM

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Sorry everybody, thats the end of it. To think, we could have seen the troll prove to us all that hes a beast but sadly...:( that won't be the case.

RIP to the chance of seeing bawang actually do something cool.

We shall miss you...

You're missing the point. Bawang said if you post a video of yourself doing footwork he would post a video of himself. Instead you posted a video of some other guy. Carry on.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 09:37 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8cdF7Mg8oc

i own you now. i make love to you, like a woman.

Thank you bawang. Nice lohan footwork. The shoe though, thats interesting haha

For good faith from one man to another:

Here you go (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIjoONvWeLA)

Its just me playing around for a sec or two so yeah. I'll probably take it down soon but yeah, this is the spinning and the angling that the other videos were showing, just much slower

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 09:39 PM

You're missing the point. Bawang said if you post a video of yourself doing footwork he would post a video of himself. Instead you posted a video of some other guy. Carry on.

Sorry dude, all he had to do was just imagine my face which you can very easily see in my signature. Thats my school and its the exact same stuff. He hadn't posted much about his school or anything in general about his self, he has though now. So yeah, carry on

LaRoux

09-16-2013, 10:11 PM

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 10:12 PM

That has about as much to do with fighting as hip-hop dancing has to do with fighting.

You are more than welcome to come and try it out. Our school loves new comers haha

In fact, check out Chris Heintzman, hes a real nice guy.

LaRoux

09-16-2013, 10:14 PM

You are more than welcome to come and try it out. Our school loves new comers haha

In fact, check out Chris Heintzman, hes a real nice guy.

For hip-hop, I'd prefer a hip-hop dance school that does real hip-hop.

For combat, I'd prefer a school that does actual fighting.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 10:16 PM

For hip-hop, I'd prefer a hip-hop dance school that does real hip-hop.

For combat, I'd prefer a school that does actual fighting.

Exactly, then why don't come on down and dance with us? hahahahaha

Here, I'll be a real gent and show you one of the dance instructors

Feel free to look him up (http://whitelionkungfu.wordpress.com/)

He's always into spreading ballroom especially

LaRoux

09-16-2013, 10:24 PM

Exactly, then why don't come on down and dance with us? hahahahaha

Here, I'll be a real gent and show you one of the dance instructors

Feel free to look him up (http://whitelionkungfu.wordpress.com/)

He's always into spreading ballroom especially

Thank you. That's exactly what I was looking for.

So, here's some actual footage of what your fight style looks like under actual application:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXWL7YwJY6o

Not a lot of resemblance to the forms you posted. Pretty much proves what bawang said. You don't fight the way you do your forms.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 10:26 PM

Thank you. That's exactly what I was looking for.

So, here's some actual footage of what your fight style looks like under actual application:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXWL7YwJY6o

Not a lot of resemblance to the forms you posted. Pretty much proves what bawang said. You don't fight the way you do your forms.

Your right, thats because he was a beginner. He only trained for about six months, maybe eight. I didn't realize you could get a whole system in just that long.

YOUSE A BEAST MAYNE!!!

I still have trouble fighting like that, and I have done it for three years, but hey, we all have to start somewhere

LaRoux

09-16-2013, 10:28 PM

Your right, thats because he was a beginner. He only trained for about six months, maybe eight. I didn't realize you could get a whole system in just that long.

YOUSE A BEAST MAYNE!!!

No, that's because, that's what combat looks like. Of course, feel free to post any footage anywhere of anybody fighting the way shown in those form.

LaRoux

09-16-2013, 10:30 PM

I still have trouble fighting like that, and I have done it for three years, but hey, we all have to start somewhere

Three years and you still can't fight in a way that resembles what is shown in those forms. That pretty much proves bawang's point again.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 10:32 PM

No, that's because, that's what combat looks like. Of course, feel free to post any footage anywhere of anybody fighting the way shown in those form.

Check out his videos (http://www.youtube.com/user/RyuDekay)

Specifically look at the ones labeled San Da and look at the big white guy. Granted hes going easy since he is just letting the other schools students get some practice but look at the footwork. He shoots in just the same. He might not cut the angles, but hes bigger so he doesn't need to. In every style there are different thoughts. My sihing explained it to me like this. Chris (the guy in the video), is the ape. Super strong and can barrel through people no problem. Me and him? Not so much, we are smaller so we have to cut angles to help us out.

So yeah, hes doing the form techniques, just different footwork patterns from them that he likes.

LaRoux

09-16-2013, 10:36 PM

Check out his videos (http://www.youtube.com/user/RyuDekay)

Specifically look at the ones labeled San Da and look at the big white guy. Granted hes going easy since he is just letting the other schools students get some practice but look at the footwork. He shoots in just the same. He might not cut the angles, but hes bigger so he doesn't need to. In every style there are different thoughts. My sihing explained it to me like this. Chris (the guy in the video), is the ape. Super strong and can barrel through people no problem. Me and him? Not so much, we are smaller so we have to cut angles to help us out.

So yeah, hes doing the form techniques, just different footwork patterns from them that he likes.

The little guy pretty much dominates him using his boxing background.

As for the footwork, nope.

LaRoux

09-16-2013, 10:38 PM

You can see the big guy sometimes trying to use his technique and the smaller guy usually capitalizes on that.

As for the footwork, nope.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 10:40 PM

You can see the big guy sometimes trying to use his technique and the smaller guy usually capitalizes on that.

As for the footwork, nope.

Dude...the big guy is being a punching bag for the little guy. All he was doing was allowing himself to be hit and then throwing stuff he would have to respond to hahahahaha

And no technique? Do you not see the long arms that are awfully present in them? Footwork he is using is the lohan stepping. Again, he likes that one because it fits him my friend. Already went over this.

You can only lead a dog to water my friend. Again I say, he will more than happily show you how to dance.

Besides, the whole fighting like the form? Naturally it will never look perfect, due to pressure, but thats why you train it so that when it does happen it gets close to it. So we do our footwork when we need it and when we don't, we don't. Chris didn't need it, so naturally he won't use it.

LaRoux

09-16-2013, 10:42 PM

Dude...the big guy is being a punching bag for the little guy. All he was doing was allowing himself to be hit and then throwing stuff he would have to respond to hahahahaha

And no technique? Do you not see the long arms that are awfully present in them?

You can only lead a dog to water my friend. Again I say, he will more than happily show you how to dance.

Kind of funny you throwing out internet challenges for someone else. Since I'm having the conversation with you, and you are throwing out challenges, maybe you'll do the dancing, huh Will?

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 10:46 PM

Kind of funny you throwing out internet challenges for someone else. Since I'm having the conversation with you, and you are throwing out challenges, maybe you'll do the dancing, huh Will?

Oh don't get me wrong. I'm not challenging anyone. All I am doing for you is pointing you to the representative of the style. You call it dancing and I'm pretty sure he would disagree with you. I am not good nor have I said I ever was. Learn to read my friend. Think of it this way, would you call it dancing to the head man himself? If not, then why say it at all. All I am is a man that is trying to learn this kung fu since I love it.

If you would like me to, I can do as much dancing as need be, but it might not be that pretty, but come if you would like.

And you are?

LaRoux

09-16-2013, 10:47 PM

Oh don't get me wrong. I'm not challenging anyone. All I am doing for you is pointing you to the representative of the style. You call it dancing and I'm pretty sure he would disagree with you. I am not good nor have I said I ever was. Learn to read my friend. Think of it this way, would you call it dancing to the head man himself? If not, then why say it at all. All I am is a man that is trying to learn this kung fu since I love it.

If you would like me to, I can do as much dancing as need be, but it might not be that pretty, but come if you would like.

And you are?

Of course I would call it dancing to him. That's exactly what those forms are.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 10:49 PM

Of course I would call it dancing to him. That's exactly what those forms are.

Hahahahaha now i see it. So are you saying the style is dancing then or are you just talking about form work in general seeing as to how now this has shifted.

LaRoux

09-16-2013, 10:51 PM

Hahahahaha now i see it. So are you saying the style is dancing then or are you just talking about form work in general seeing as to how now this has shifted.

The form work is dancing. If anyone there is fighting, they sure aren't doing anything resembling those forms. The forms you showed and the fighting are two completely separate things.

As bawang said originally, you can't fight using what you showed in those forms.

crazedjustice88

09-16-2013, 10:58 PM

The form work is dancing. If anyone there is fighting, they sure aren't doing anything resembling those forms. The forms you showed and the fighting are two completely separate things.

As bawang said originally, you can't fight using what you showed in those forms.

Dude, again. Each form has different techniques that you choose on your own. I will assume you know this. What footwork you do with it is up to you. The form, as our sifu teaches us, varies on footwork. You can change it up how you like, so to say that one person doing the form looks different from another one fighting is not a valid argument. Now if you saw the same person do all that jazz then not be able to pull it out, naturally that would be the individual.

Again, I'm not saying its going to look perfect. When I'm bouncing at clubs and things get a little "crazy", my "cutting angles" and "footwork" aren't perfect, but they do come out and I end up doing what I need to do. Again, it will never look JUST like it, but we strive to get as closed to it as possible. My sihing pulls it out on me everytime we spar, granted he has been there for a long time. If you would like to come to simply come and ask questions, I'm sure my sifu would be more than happy to accommodate you. (by the by, thats not a challenge, I'm being serious, people come by all the time)

So do not mistake what I say for probably what you think I'm saying, but we do what we do in the forms, not a too pretty version of it, but the footwork on the mui fah has saved my butt quite a few times at the club.

Brule

09-17-2013, 05:39 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8cdF7Mg8oc

i own you now. i make love to you, like a woman.

Did you train at Jing Mo at T.O. Chinatown?

David Jamieson

09-17-2013, 05:49 AM

lol at the f*%king shoe thing. Bawang, that was grade A. lol "footwork" lol

Jimbo

09-17-2013, 08:19 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8cdF7Mg8oc

i own you now. i make love to you, like a woman.

Excellent! The combat form of the art of Wu Shoe.

Here's it is in actual application...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ova8cxfwj0&sns=em

bawang

09-17-2013, 09:59 AM

Did you train at Jing Mo at T.O. Chinatown?

no mang, i learned 1 form from a guy who used 2 b der. it was awkward.

YouKnowWho

09-17-2013, 10:09 AM

What footwork you do with it is up to you. The form, as our sifu teaches us, varies on footwork. You can change it up how you like, so to say that one person doing the form looks different from another one fighting is not a valid argument.

This morning when I walked into my living room, my wife attacked me with low roundhouse kicks one after another (she has TKD black belt) . I dodged every single one that she delivered. I didn't want to jam her kicks with my leg because she always accused me to use my hard bone to hurt her. What footwork did I used? Not any footwork from any forms that I have learned. I just responded according to whatever that I needed to respond.

IMO, you may be able to use "predefined footwork" to attack (if you start it). But to respond to your opponent's attack, there is no predefined footwork for that. How to move out of the way depends on how your opponent may attack.

This is the concern that I have with the "TCMA forms training method". Since "your opponent" doesn't exist, the timing, angle, opportunity all make no sense. You may think that you are training footwork but the truth is you are not.

crazedjustice88

09-17-2013, 10:28 AM

This morning when I walked into my living room, my wife attacked me with low roundhouse kicks one after another (she has TKD black belt) . I dodged every single one that she delivered. I didn't want to jam her kicks with my leg because she always accused me to use my hard bone to hurt her. What footwork did I used? Not any footwork from any forms that I have learned. I just responded according to whatever that I needed to respond.

IMO, you may be able to use "predefined footwork" to attack (if you start it). But to respond to your opponent's attack, there is no predefined footwork for that. How to move out of the way depends on how your opponent may attack.

This is the concern that I have with the "TCMA forms training method". Since "your opponent" doesn't exist, the timing, angle, opportunity all make no sense. You may think that you are training footwork but the truth is you are not.
Exactly, thats why my sifu lets you change it up in the form. At our school, if you can use the footwork, then obviously you have been training it, if you do something else, as long as you pull out on top, thats cool too.

We strive to be able to use the footwork, but not in any prearranged pattern or set. Like I said before, when I have been bouncing and fights break out, I might use two steps out of the *however many there are*, but they save my life when I do pull them out.

bawang

09-17-2013, 10:31 AM

when I have been bouncing and fights break out, I might use two steps out of the *however many there are*, but they save my life when I do pull them out.

is u for realz

crazedjustice88

09-17-2013, 10:41 AM

is u for realz

Yessir, I have bounced at a couple clubs and house partys to get a little bit of extra cash. My sifu doesn't really like it, but I have stopped since I found a better job.

YouKnowWho

09-17-2013, 10:50 AM

Here is an example to use a pre-defined footwork in attacking.

- Back foot move 1 feet,
- front foot move 3 inches,
- try to align back foot with opponent's feet (make sure your opponent has less chance to escape that leading leg attack).
- ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4kgryljlaU

crazedjustice88

09-17-2013, 10:53 AM

Here is an example to use a pre-defined footwork in attacking.

- Back foot move 1 feet,
- front foot move 3 inches,
- try to align back foot with opponent's feet.
- ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4kgryljlaU

They all have there place. My sifu likes us to vary up footwork. Sometimes use white crane, other times use lohan. It all depends on the variables of the situation.

No_Know

09-17-2013, 07:04 PM

By walking the circle you inevitably cross your legs. You can't walk unless you cross your legs.

Right side of my crotch has my right thigh and right leg. the left side of my crotch has my left thigh and left leg. When I could walk, I could walk and the left stayed on the left and the right stayed on the right.

Walking a circle the thighs are close but no crossing really required.

There's a transition move to walking the circle (Pa Kua Ch'uan) which is what the seven except Sifu Wang are doing in the picture of eight Bagua-ists near the beginning of this thread.

No crossing of legs! Revers bow and arrow to T footed Unicorn Wing Chun Stance to reverse bow and arrow.

No_Know

SavvySavage

09-17-2013, 08:42 PM

Ba gua sparring

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-gev8goEI&feature=related

Syn7

09-17-2013, 08:50 PM

YouKnowWho

09-17-2013, 09:09 PM

Ba gua sparring

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-gev8goEI&feature=related
Not be able to make the "foot sweep" work is one thing. Don't even know that the "foot sweep" exist is something else.

When I watched this clip, my body kept telling me, "sweep that leg, sweep that leg, ..." I could pull my muscle if I ever watch it again. :)

My teacher told me that some audience pulled his muscle by watching a Chinese wrestling match. Now I understand it can truly happen in the real world.

YouKnowWho

09-17-2013, 09:45 PM

Sometimes it's good to cross step though, or walk in. There are lots of variables to consider. If you spar a lot, it's probably instinct for you by now.

There is a safe spot for your "cross legs". That's when you are behind your opponent and your opponent hasn't turn around yet. If you are still in front of your opponent, it's not a good idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieYawsW-OEs

No_Know

09-18-2013, 10:13 AM

There is a safe spot for your "cross legs". That's when you are behind your opponent and your opponent hasn't turn around yet. If you are still in front of your opponent, it's not a good idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieYawsW-OEs

What's in that video is special circumstances as more fights/spars than not are not doh-see-doh square-dancing which is what they essentially are doing. People don't lock elbows like that.

No_Know

No_Know

09-18-2013, 10:30 AM

Not be able to make the "foot sweep" work is one thing. Don't even know that the "foot sweep" exist is something else.

When I watched this clip, my body kept telling me, "sweep that leg, sweep that leg, ..." I could pull my muscle if I ever watch it again. :)

My teacher told me that some audience pulled his muscle by watching a Chinese wrestling match. Now I understand it can truly happen in the real world.

These people are moving around and not using Circle Walking. Except around forty five seconds white top started to-by having controlled steps for momentary rooting for support.
The steps are not rooted enough to work for what the practice might should be for.

One might wonder if these people put-in the quality effort with the quality understanding to count to be examples of the application of Circle Walking.

Slow becomes very fast. You don't just take technique and go faster.

In Squirrel is the lesson of a Sheet of Paper and a Ream--One can tear a sheet of paper in half-ish whereas one is harder-pressed to tear a ream of paper in half-ish. Strength is added to; thin layer by thin layer...

No_Know

Syn7

09-18-2013, 03:53 PM

What's in that video is special circumstances as more fights/spars than not are not doh-see-doh square-dancing which is what they essentially are doing. People don't lock elbows like that.

No_Know

What about if you are circling around the lead arm? That happens all the time. Moving in and out in a linear fashion is usually not that great of an idea in a real empty hand combat situation. In my experience anyways. Even when I shoot in for a double, quite often it's got a slight arc to it as I anticipate turning the corner for a hard takedown.

YouKnowWho

09-20-2013, 01:16 AM

These people are moving around and not using Circle Walking.
At 0.18, 0.21, 0.23, 0.27, 0.36, 0.41, ... his opponent should move toward his circle walking opponent instead of just stood there. He might miss that opportunity in the 1st time. But to miss it 3 times or even more would be his own fault. He didn't even "intend" to sweep his opponent's leg even once. In order to do so, he would need to step in, plant his foot at the right time, and at the right place.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h-gev8goEI&feature=related&app=desktop

Brule

09-20-2013, 05:30 AM

no mang, i learned 1 form from a guy who used 2 b der. it was awkward.

The guy was awkward or the kung fu? Because the kung fu from what I have experienced was good stuff.

18elders

09-20-2013, 08:22 AM

when you going to put up a bunch of clips of you fighting? love how you go to different boards and cut down everyone's stuff.

how experienced is the bagua guy? there were many concepts he didn't use.

love for you to fight my mantis teacher and my bagua teacher.

bawang

09-20-2013, 08:39 AM

The guy was awkward or the kung fu? Because the kung fu from what I have experienced was good stuff.

I was the only Chinese guy der. i felt i was intruding on their little club. they didn't know the name of the moves so the form i learned was basically useless.

18elders

09-20-2013, 08:53 AM

youknowwho

note he doesn't say circle walk for fighting??????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAIR1Fp2iM&feature=c4-overview&list=UUs-TB4nWC4pPDq1KRgS9BoQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkPs6sINU_U&list=UUs-TB4nWC4pPDq1KRgS9BoQ

YouKnowWho

09-20-2013, 11:31 AM

love for you to fight my mantis teacher and my bagua teacher.

Why do I want to fight your mantis and Bagua teachers for? I don't even know them.

We can discuss "cross legs" in any detail with words, pictures, clips, ... We can even have a 1000 pages discussion on this. There is no need for "indirect internet challenge" and get personal here.

lkfmdc

09-20-2013, 11:34 AM

"you should fight my teacher"

well, first, maybe your teacher really secretly studied Thai boxing and boxing and Judo and that is what he really fights with...

second, can YOU fight? OK, your teacher is great, he has the chi ball deadly but WHAT ABOUT YOU????

"some guy in my lineage 150 years ago was the best fighter in (small region of isolated China)"

well, again, what about YOU? what skill do YOU have?

pazman

09-20-2013, 10:22 PM

I love it when people make challenges on behalf of their teachers.

"Indirect internet challenges" are the type of passive-aggressiveness they learn from the their teachers. They will never step on the lei tai.

LaRoux

09-21-2013, 07:51 AM

Here's generally what happens when kung fu teachers end up doing internet challenges:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdasNOFDNrM

Syn7

09-21-2013, 09:07 AM

That vid was ok, but this one in the links.... golden!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwI_y34cgyo

No point here, just made me laugh. :)

Cocaine... it's a hell of a drug!

I'm actually pretty impressed that they didn't shoot him. Or bean bag him at the very least. To be honest, I would have bean bagged his ass.

18elders

09-21-2013, 09:55 AM

pazman, can you read? i said love for you to fight them, i did not say my teacher wanted a challenge. pay attention next time.

secondly, i said that because you know who was on the mantis forum saying mantis has speed but no power. now he is here cutting down bagua.
my teacher would not fight the way the bagua guy fought just walking the circle.
his general statements are ****.

lkmfdc- of course i can fight but i am not as skilled as my teachers and if he is cutting down mantis and bagua, then he would benefit the best by telling my teachers why their styles suck.

LaRoux

09-21-2013, 10:59 AM

YouKnowWho

09-21-2013, 11:11 AM

secondly, i said that because you know who was on the mantis forum saying mantis has speed but no power. now he is here cutting down bagua.
my teacher would not fight the way the bagua guy fought just walking the circle.
his general statements are ****.
From your user name, I can tell that your praying mantis teacher may come from Hong Kong. In Cantonese, the Chinese word 手(Shou) is pronounced as 叟(Sou).

if he is cutting down mantis ...

I would be the last person on this planet who tries to cut down mantis. I can't remember how many times that I have said in this forum that if I can only pick up one striking art from the TCMA system, I'll pick up the praying mantis system.

10 things that I like about the praying mantis system are:

PM has:

1. all the punching tools used in boxing such as jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
2. all the kicking tools that inherited from the longfist system.
3. clear beginner level, intermediate level, advance level training process.
4. speed training.
5. combo set up training.
6. open mind (don't mind cross training).
7. no hidden or abstract moves in their forms.
8. sticky hand training that your opponent punches from some distance (not from arm contact).
9. easy integration path with the throwing art.
10. Taiji PM, Liuhe PM, and Baji PM that have power generation training.

It's not easy to find all these advantages in any single TCMA style. Hope I'm an OK salesperson for the PM system. :D

As Meng Zi famous saying said, "I don't like to argue but sometime I don't have other choice". If you only want to pay attention on the "1/2 cup empty" and not pay attention on the "1/2 cup full" from what I have said, that's your problem.

If your teacher would not fight the way the Bagua guy fought just walking the circle, then he and I will agree with each other when we meet someday.

bawang

09-21-2013, 11:19 AM

From your user name, I can tell that your praying mantis teacher may come from Hong Kong. In Cantonese, the Chinese word 手(Shou) is pronounced as 叟(Sou).

wing chun + speedwalking= hong kong mantis

18elders

09-23-2013, 06:59 AM

SPJ

09-23-2013, 07:38 AM

There are many hidden power, hidden hands and hidden legs in northern praying mantis.

We do not see it coming in Praying Mantis.

Yes, all we see are fast hands and quick steps in NPM.

My point is that there more aspects to power generation than just being evident and strong.

:)

omarthefish

09-23-2013, 07:56 AM

i never saw your post on the things you like about mantis, only the post saying mantis has speed but no power so sorry for giving you crap but you also contradict yourself saying it has no power and that
Taiji PM, Liuhe PM, and Baji PM that have power generation training.

He never said it has "no" power. He only has made the comparison in relative terms. Mantis just doesn't have the kind of specific power training that is so prominent in Baji. OTOH, he also has often said that Baji lacks the speed training you find in Mantis. Point being, you have to make trade offs in your training. Mantis is particularly famous for fast combos. Focus exclusively on speed and you end up sacrificing power. Baji is famous for power. Focus exclusively on power and you end up sacrificing speed.

He only critiques these styles in relative terms.

I'm pretty sure his handle is "youknowwho" because if you have been posting online for any length of time "you know who" he is. I know for myself, I know who he his, who his teacher was and what styles he trains and what his focus is. It gives me a lot of context for his posts.

David Jamieson

09-23-2013, 08:45 AM

Just shuffle, it's better that way anyways. Same way you would lunge in with a bow stance. Push step bring up the rear. Good way to keep a solid base.

Sometimes it's good to cross step though, or walk in. There are lots of variables to consider. If you spar a lot, it's probably instinct for you by now.

the Larry Holmes method of footwork. :)

worked for him because he could take and give easy and he was huge and a heavy dude.

But here is a heavyweight dude that had arguably the best footwork in the heavyweight boxing game. Ever.

http://i.imgur.com/WGDJzHr.gif

Kellen Bassette

09-23-2013, 02:10 PM

Mantis is particularly famous for fast combos. Focus exclusively on speed and you end up sacrificing power. Baji is famous for power. Focus exclusively on power and you end up sacrificing speed.

There is no way to circumvent this conundrum...there will always be some trade off...

YouKnowWho

09-23-2013, 02:29 PM

There is no way to circumvent this conundrum...there will always be some trade off...

The WC chain punches is another good example. If you use "forward pressure" (that mean's your body is not rotated) and try to throw 4 straight punches in 1 second (or even faster), when and how will you be able to generate your power for each punches? You may generate 1 powerful punch for every 3 non-powerful punches. To me, that's to use 3 fake punches to set up a real punch, it's no longer chain punches by definition.