Training Contact WC with Bare Knuckles -- Nothing to do with WC vs. Systema!

[Grumblegeezer]

This video has nothing to do with the title "Wing Tchun vs. ...". It's about training with contact using bare knuckles vs. wraps and gloves. In the past, people have told me that this guy is nuts. He probably is! But I enjoy watching him. Any thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx-DT2ZNA7Y

[Shads]

lots of wristy slapping punches with no penetration or elbow power. total sh1t . Then again maybe its just too "abstract" for me

[GlennR]

lots of wristy slapping punches with no penetration or elbow power. total sh1t . Then again maybe its just too "abstract" for me

You're probably right

[Wayfaring]

This video has nothing to do with the title "Wing Tchun vs. ...". It's about training with contact using bare knuckles vs. wraps and gloves. In the past, people have told me that this guy is nuts. He probably is! But I enjoy watching him. Any thoughts?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx-DT2ZNA7Y

Only in WCK can you read a description of video from someone where you read the words "training with contact using bare knuckles vs. wraps and gloves", and then when you watch the video, nobody is actually "training with contact using bare knuckles".

Instead you see a guy running his mouth and compliantly punching various of his students in the chest.

And then that you find that it goes on for 15 minutes.

And you realize that you can't get that 15 minutes of your life back. Or however shorter amount of time it took to fast forward through the video to look for "training".

[Grumblegeezer]

Only in WCK can you read a description of video from someone where you read the words "training with contact using bare knuckles vs. wraps and gloves", and then when you watch the video, nobody is actually "training with contact using bare knuckles".

Instead you see a guy running his mouth and compliantly punching various of his students in the chest.

And then that you find that it goes on for 15 minutes.

And you realize that you can't get that 15 minutes of your life back. Or however shorter amount of time it took to fast forward through the video to look for "training".

Sorry, ...my bad. I should have been clearer in my description so that you wouldn't waste a piece of your life on this forum. Now why does that sound silly? Say, ever watch one of Hendrik's videos... Whoops, I'm going off topic again.

Where was I? ...Oh yeah, I should have said "Doing drills with fairly hard, but controlled bare-hand contact to selected, safe targets." This is definitely not about full contact. But the same guy has posted stuff with gloves and more contact. Take a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I4eaxvw5m4

[LFJ]

But the same guy has posted stuff with gloves and more contact. Take a look:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I4eaxvw5m4

Looks like a couple angry kids. That was an awesome takedown @:48 though. :D

[GlennR]

Looks like a couple angry kids. That was an awesome takedown @:48 though. :D

I'm sure the super secret sparring clips from the wslpbvt guys would be so much better ;)

[LFJ]

I'm sure the super secret sparring clips from the wslpbvt guys would be so much better ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDqSRN_ZDWk

[BPWT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDqSRN_ZDWk

Nice clip, in my opinion. Some problems with range (punching when not quite in range), but I'm just as guilty of that when the gloves and headgear are on (the desire to hit sometimes overrules the fact we're not quite in range to do so).

[GlennR]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDqSRN_ZDWk

In all honesty, i prefer the 1st one

[guy b.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDqSRN_ZDWk

Looks ok but don't like the tendency to tense up and hold the head back and chin up which is a) dangerous and b) messing up the ability to punch. Also looks a bit suspect in that the same guy "wins" every time and the losers just give up and curl into foetal position every time he gets through their arms.

[LFJ]

Pretty sure these guys are 2 or 3 generations from PB, but at least someone put something out there. The guy in the black at the beginning appears to be the instructor, hence he's the one "winning" all the time.

[LFJ]

In all honesty, i prefer the 1st one

In all honesty? Alright... Why?

[KPM]

Pretty sure these guys are 2 or 3 generations from PB, but at least someone put something out there. The guy in the black at the beginning appears to be the instructor, hence he's the one "winning" all the time.

Yes. Kudos for them for putting it out there! I'll note that the big guy in white seemed to do much better when he was boxing rather than doing Wing Chun. He got in several good jabs.

Not to be critical, because this is a good clip... but I did want to make one comment given some past discussions here. It seemed to me that when the instructor was having problems with "big white" in boxing mode, it was because he was not taking care of the "obstruction" that the boxer's guard represented. Too often he was not really neutralizing the opponent's arms when they got in close, leaving them free to continue to hit. In other words, he did not "bridge" well.

As far as the clip that Grumblegeezer posted....looked like lots of "flailing" and not a lot of technique. I thought the idea with WCK was to hit without getting hit (at least as much as possible), not to exchange blows like boxing.

The problem I see with the whole idea of "gearing up" for sparring....once you are in the gear, people tend to revert to a boxing mentality and a lot of the carefully trained WCK techniques go out the window. I'm guilty as well. I think it is better to include the gear early in drills and such so that the student doesn't see it as "special". Hard contact in gear should be a part of the entire curriculum, not just in sparring. Then the student doesn't get the subconscious impression that they are in "boxing mode" because they have on gear. The "Applied Wing Chun" guys do this....Duncan Leung, Gordon Lo, Allan Lee..... Allan Orr's guys do this. They are less likely to end up looking like "sloppy kickboxing" when they spar.

[LFJ]

That's not wslpbvt sparring... Not even close.

http://www.vingtsun-langenberg.de/vingtsun.html

It says here the instructor is under a direct student of PB, so second generation PBVT, with 15 years' training experience...

[LFJ]

As far as the clip that Grumblegeezer posted....looked like lots of "flailing" and not a lot of technique.

Clearly in the video I posted they have some things to work on, but in that one all they did was flail around, tangle up and fall over together... which apparently is what Glenn prefers. :)

[LaRoux]

In all honesty? Alright... Why?

Because the guys in the first one are going 100% with no head gear and they aren't stopping. The first one is 10x more realistic.

[LaRoux]

Clearly in the video I posted they have some things to work on, but in that one all they did was flail around, tangle up and fall over together... which apparently is what Glenn prefers. :)

In the one you posted, they weren't going 100% and kept stopping once someone got in trouble. Much less realistic in terms of what really happens.

[LaRoux]

The problem I see with the whole idea of "gearing up" for sparring....once you are in the gear, people tend to revert to a boxing mentality and a lot of the carefully trained WCK techniques go out the window.

That has very little to do with gearing up and everything to do with upping the intensity.

[GlennR]

In all honesty? Alright... Why?

Well for all the reasons the other posters have mentioned.

Ultimately, the guy in the 1st post looks like he can fight using his WC (there was stuff id didnt like in his clip as well) ,and the second lot really looked liked they would struggle if the intensity was raised one notch.

And as one of the guys said, when one started throwing some jabs (poor ones at that) there was little ability to deal with them.

Having said that, sparring is about learning, and maybe they were just trying different things at a different pace

[LFJ]

Ultimately, the guy in the 1st post looks like he can fight using his WC

Really? All he did was stand in front of the guy and wildly chain punch until they tangled up and the guy fell over, then chained punch some more. Had they really been hitting each other he would have eaten quite a few in exchange.

At :48 after he tried to muscle the guy for a takedown he ended up on his back and would have been screwed if the guy knew ground fighting and took side control. What was his response from the ground? Chain punch!

There was intensity, which is good, but I didn't see much skill.

That being said, the two clips can't really be compared on that level. They were obviously at a different stage of development in training with different goals in mind. And while there was plenty for them to work on in the second clip, they at least did more than chain punching.

[Paddington]

Looks ok but don't like the tendency to tense up and hold the head back and chin up [...]

This seems to be so common in Wing Chun. Why do you think people do this guy_b? A desire to be or travel on top of the opponents arms? Something engendered through mis-practicing 'standing straight' in SLT?

[GlennR]

Really? All he did was stand in front of the guy and wildly chain punch until they tangled up and the guy fell over, then chained punch some more. Had they really been hitting each other he would have eaten quite a few in exchange.


Sure, it was a bit busy. But i know which of the guys id least like to spar..... thats Mr Chain punch


At :48 after he tried to muscle the guy for a takedown he ended up on his back and would have been screwed if the guy knew ground fighting and took side control. What was his response from the ground? Chain punch!


Yep, that part was crap


There was intensity, which is good, but I didn't see much skill.

Its WC... what were you hoping to see?.
If can occupy the centre and blast through then why do more than that... he did that


That being said, the two clips can't really be compared on that level. They were obviously at a different stage of development in training with different goals in mind.

True


And while there was plenty for them to work on in the second clip, they at least did more than chain punching.


Yeh, they jabbed ;)

[BPWT]

That's not wslpbvt sparring... Not even close.

It did say VT sparring at the start of the clip, and the guy is from a PBVT teacher, no?

[LFJ]

Its WC... what were you hoping to see?.
If can occupy the centre and blast through then why do more than that... he did that

He won each mini-round because he eventually overwhelmed the guy with his chain punching. Had they actually been hitting each other, either one of them could have been caught with the big one.

I would like to have seen more affecting the opponent's facing to reduce his countering ability, rather than just exchanging blows and whoever is faster or lands a lucky shot first wins. I like to have better odds. I think WC should accomplish that.

[guy b.]

This seems to be so common in Wing Chun. Why do you think people do this guy_b? A desire to be or travel on top of the opponents arms? Something engendered through mis-practicing 'standing straight' in SLT?

Lack of understanding or lack of belief or lack of practice in the wing chun method for avoiding being hit in the face by the opponent I would say. Even "good" people do it though. Maybe it is an inherent problem with wing chun. It is very common

[guy b.]

That's not wslpbvt sparring... Not even close.

Did these guys not learn from PB?

[Dragonzbane76]

"real" bare knuckle fighting.
Irish bare knuckle

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aGn8b3mwgw

[KungFubar]

And then that you find that it goes on for 15 minutes.

And you realize that you can't get that 15 minutes of your life back.

haha nice.