Crossing Legs

[Kellen Bassette]

Conventional MMA wisdom dictates that you never cross your legs when fighting. TCMA, however, makes use of leg crossing frequently with footwork stepping patterns, classical stances, spinning/unwinding techniques, step-behind kicks and the like.

Do you incorporate leg crossing in your sparring and overall strategy? If so, how and why do you see it as beneficial?

[mooyingmantis]

In my mantis school I only teach a cross leg (niu bu) stance for a common mantis retreating tactic to draw the opponent in. We NEVER use cross-legged movement to move side-ward.

[bawang]

Conventional MMA wisdom dictates that you never cross your legs when fighting. TCMA, however, makes use of leg crossing frequently with footwork stepping patterns, classical stances, spinning/unwinding techniques, step-behind kicks and the like.

Do you incorporate leg crossing in your sparring and overall strategy? If so, how and why do you see it as beneficial?

tcma does not make frequent use of leg crossing

[Kellen Bassette]

tcma does not make frequent use of leg crossing

It's pretty common in form work....

[bawang]

It's pretty common in form work....

give exampls

http://www.planetside-universe.com/f_usercontent/customavatars/avatar27116_1.gif

[Jimbo]

Conventional MMA wisdom dictates that you never cross your legs when fighting. TCMA, however, makes use of leg crossing frequently with footwork stepping patterns, classical stances, spinning/unwinding techniques, step-behind kicks and the like.

Do you incorporate leg crossing in your sparring and overall strategy? If so, how and why do you see it as beneficial?

Many times, stepping patterns in forms that use a cross-step represent a foot sweep. In such cases, what the hands / upper body are doing simultaneously make it very obvious. This is clearly different from assuming or moving into a cross-legged stance while facing an opponent, which wouldn't be very smart, to put it kindly.

[Kellen Bassette]

give exampls

http://www.planetside-universe.com/f_usercontent/customavatars/avatar27116_1.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqoxhz4voPo 1:43, 3:19

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQbZsgJ-pb4 0:22

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVc7UF4LOIs Throughout the whole form really, but especially 2:17-2:50 and 3:08-3:16




http://i.ytimg.com/vi/HNJczHCQoHc/0.jpg

http://wilsongs.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/HUNGKUEN.GIF

Postures 3 and 4 in the second row....

I would consider all this to be examples of crossing legs....

[bawang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqoxhz4voPo 1:43, 3:19

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQbZsgJ-pb4 0:22

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVc7UF4LOIs Throughout the whole form really, but especially 2:17-2:50 and 3:08-3:16


Postures 3 and 4 in the second row....

I would consider all this to be examples of crossing legs....

clf video is exaggerated movement for teaching
dahongquan video is exaggerated movement for performance
futsan kung fu cross legs to protect groin
1 move crossing the leg in a 100 move form is not frequent


http://www.planetside-universe.com/f_usercontent/customavatars/avatar27116_1.gifhttp://www.planetside-universe.com/f_usercontent/customavatars/avatar27116_1.gifhttp://www.planetside-universe.com/f_usercontent/customavatars/avatar27116_1.gifhttp://www.planetside-universe.com/f_usercontent/customavatars/avatar27116_1.gif

[Kellen Bassette]

clf video is exaggerated movement for teaching
dahongquan video is exaggerated movement for performance
futsan kung fu cross legs to protect groin
1 move crossing the leg in a 100 move form is not frequent


I know forms are exaggerated, I understand there are applications to the techniques...my question was, "does anyone use these techniques in sparring, if you do use them, how do you apply them?"

[bawang]

I know forms are exaggerated, I understand there are applications to the techniques...my question was, "does anyone use these techniques in sparring, if you do use them, how do you apply them?"

its only cross legged in the form.

[Jimbo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqoxhz4voPo 1:43, 3:19

I have used a similar combination to the one at 3:19, but was already in close, and used my foot to hook the ankle as a sweep. Also, instead of kwa with the sweep, I used a dot choi, following with a spinning dot choi, like in the vid. I've only used that particular combo infrequently during free-sparring, but it worked well.

[Kellen Bassette]

I have used a similar combination to the one at 3:19, but was already in close, and used my foot to hook the ankle as a sweep. Also, instead of kwa with the sweep, I used a dot choi, following with a spinning dot choi, like in the vid. I've only pulled that particular combo off infrequently during free-sparring, but it worked well.

I like to use various spinning techniques, but I set up by turning the lead foot a half step and twisting the torso around. In form work that same idea is usually expressed by sliding the rear leg forward, so that legs are crossed, then unwinding...

[bawang]

I like to use various spinning techniques, but I set up by turning the lead foot a half step and twisting the torso around. In form work that same idea is usually expressed by sliding the rear leg forward, so that legs are crossed, then unwinding...

you are too focused on flowery boxing. spinning is exceedingly rare in kung fu.

[Kellen Bassette]

you are too focused on flowery boxing. spinning is exceedingly rare in kung fu.

But these techniques are most powerful. Spin with backfist, elbow, back kick and hook kick....no-one can stand before... :p

[bawang]

But these techniques are most powerful. Spin with backfist, elbow, back kick and hook kick....no-one can stand before... :p

the tightey whitey often thinks its the most flashy techniques that are most marvelous. but in kung fu, it is the simple techniques that are the most marvelous.

http://lparchive.org/Breath-of-Fire-IV/Smilies/emot-parrot.gifhttp://lparchive.org/Breath-of-Fire-IV/Smilies/emot-parrot.gifhttp://lparchive.org/Breath-of-Fire-IV/Smilies/emot-parrot.gifhttp://lparchive.org/Breath-of-Fire-IV/Smilies/emot-parrot.gifhttp://lparchive.org/Breath-of-Fire-IV/Smilies/emot-parrot.gif

[Kellen Bassette]

the tightey whitey often thinks its the most flashy techniques that are most marvelous. but in kung fu, it is the simple techniques that are the most marvelous.

It's the timing of using those simple techniques that is most marvelous, but I am a fan of the element of surprise.

[bawang]

It's the timing of using those simple techniques that is most marvelous, but I am a fan of the element of surprise.

I dont see element of surprise in crossing your legs together and crushing your testicles with your thighs

[PalmStriker]

you are too focused on flowery boxing. spinning is exceedingly rare in kung fu. Would you care to embroider that statement? :confused:

[Kellen Bassette]

I dont see element of surprise in crossing your legs together and crushing your testicles with your thighs

Me either, I thought we were talking about spinning elbow just now....

[bawang]

Would you care to embroider that statement? :confused:

if u look at nail fist of northern shaolin, you punch at the opponents groin. he moves his balls away and his head is now forward. you headbutt in one motion. this is called miraculous boxing.

small red fist turning an overhand right into a liver punch, that is miraculous boxing.

bull gores man, uppercut his stomach, he shifts his guard down, now you uppercut the head. this is called miraculous boxing.

*rubs testicles

[Kellen Bassette]

Ok..now I'm lost....

[bawang]

Ok..now I'm lost....

crossing your legs together belongs in a stripper dance routine. its not in real fighting.

[Kellen Bassette]

crossing your legs together belongs in a stripper dance routine. its not in real fighting.

So the short answer, which I expected, was you don't use it in your sparring? :rolleyes:

[bawang]

So the short answer, which I expected, was you don't use it in your sparring? :rolleyes:

i have used every single kung fu technique i learned in sparring. it got my ass beat raw

[Kellen Bassette]

i have used every single kung fu technique i learned in sparring. it got my ass beat raw

Put your hands up, chin down and move around this time. Try again.

[bawang]

Put your hands up, chin down and move around this time. Try again.

*tells me to fight realistically
*talks about crossing legs in sparring

no bro no

[Kellen Bassette]

*tells me to fight realistically
*talks about crossing legs in sparring

no bro no

I asked if anyone does it and if so how they employ it. I don't remember suggesting it as a strategy....:rolleyes:

[bawang]

I asked if anyone does it and if so how they employ it. I don't remember suggesting it as a strategy....:rolleyes:

i already told u its for flowery performance.

[YouKnowWho]

"does anyone use these techniques in sparring, if you do use them, how do you apply them?"

One time in a challenge fight (I was in my 20. The challenger was a guy who just obtained his TKD black belt), I attacked him by jumping in the air (the most fancy attack that I have ever done in my life). When my right foot landed in front of my opponent, my right hand still couldn't reach him. I moved my left foot behind my right leg (toward my opponent), my right punch could finally land on his face and knocked him down. Of course I had that footwork planed in my head before I made that jump.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrCjWhK8GDY&feature=youtu.be

In a pole form that I had learned when I was 10, the last move require a similar jump. I could jump pretty high and pretty far when I was young.

http://imageshack.us/a/img407/4960/ehpj.jpg

[Kellen Bassette]

i already told u its for flowery performance.

I didn't ask what it was for.

I was just starting a conversation about a sparring concept, but was abruptly swarmed by head wagging parrots. :cool:

[bawang]

I didn't ask what it was for.

I was just starting a conversation about a sparring concept, but was abruptly swarmed by head wagging parrots. :cool:

misalign your opponents attack
sneak one step forward

ur welcome my son

[Kellen Bassette]

misalign your opponents attack
sneak one step forward

ur welcome my son

Was that so hard?

[bawang]

Was that so hard?

hard as my penus when i see skinny lesbian that look like Justin bieber

[Kellen Bassette]

hard as my penus when i see skinny lesbian that look like Justin bieber

Have you started stalking her yet?

[bawang]

Have you started stalking her yet?

the technique doesn't involve crossing the legs. but the form emphasizes that you are changing direction with the rear leg.

[Kellen Bassette]

the technique doesn't involve crossing the legs. but the form emphasizes that you are changing direction with the rear leg.

If you leave the front foot facing forward, instead of turning it outwards 90 degrees when you "steal a step" backwards, you achieve the exact same thing without ever crossing the legs. The only difference is the angle of the front foot.

[bawang]

If you leave the front foot facing forward, instead of turning it outwards 90 degrees when you "steal a step" backwards, you achieve the exact same thing without ever crossing the legs. The only difference is the angle of the front foot.

when you practice body mechanics in horse stance you will cross the legs. if u do it in fighting stance u will not cross the legs. if the leg motion is not exaggerated u will also not cross the legs.

[YouKnowWho]

In SC, you use "cross leg" in 2 different ways. If you cross your back leg

- behind your front leg, it's called "偷步(Tou Bu) - stealing step". It's used when your opponent moves in toward you and you meet him half way.
- in front of your front leg, it's called "盖步(Gai Bu) - cover step". It's used when your opponent refuses to move in toward you and you have to move in toward him.

[Kellen Bassette]

when you practice body mechanics in horse stance you will cross the legs. if u do it in fighting stance u will not cross the legs. if the leg motion is not exaggerated u will also not cross the legs.


That's a good point, when your in horse and you pivot to the side, you end up in bow stance, but if you stand naturally with your feet parallel and pivot to the side, you will be in a fighting stance.

The classical stance training actually makes a lot of sense when you utilize the concepts from a natural standing position. It really is just a difference in frame.

[bawang]

That's a good point, when your in horse and you pivot to the side, you end up in bow stance, but if you stand naturally with your feet parallel and pivot to the side, you will be in a fighting stance.

The classical stance training actually makes a lot of sense when you utilize the concepts from a natural standing position. It really is just a difference in frame.

in fighting you move your leg only 1 inch. but u must move with force as if to cross your legs.

[RenDaHai]

All the time.

I use crossing the legs all the time.

TouBu is very common when moving. Usually in application it is more subtle than in form, as in the legs step in line, barely cross, but it is still crossing legs body mechanic. There are many times when we use cross stepping or twisting shen fa, it doesn't need to go all the way to cross stance but it is the same mechanic.

In weapons one must make a much more extreme move, especially short vs. long i.e Dao Po Qiang.

[MarathonTmatt]

hello y'all,

there is a low kick technique to the shin/ knee cap I like to use. it is a low crossing (splitting?) kick. I have long legs so I use it quite successfully to "step in" and land a kick but also to keep my sparring partners "in check" (Checking the leg) at a closer range. not quite a cross stance, but if you were to plop the leg down it would be. also yes as mentioned by others I do remember using a cross stance to steal a step before, but that's usually in a sizing the other person up jockeying for position kind of moment.
cross stances also seem quite practical for general sneaking around also, like lurking in the bushes kind of way (unrelated to sparring).

[Kellen Bassette]

there is a low kick technique to the shin/ knee cap I like to use. it is a low crossing (splitting?) kick.

I like to use cross kick as well, but when you use this kick, there is no reason your leg needs to be crossed when you land your foot back on the ground.

[MightyB]

Stepping behind and momentarily crossing the legs is used often in setting up throws usually prior to a twisting motion, or it can be used with a lead leg side kick.

twisting to cross the legs (transitional / very quick) can be used with a lead on lead du sau "hook" to deliver a hard shot to the face or body with the rear hand (the twist bringing the rear hand forward), again it's a transitional stance you don't hold it for more than a split second.

[David Jamieson]

If you cannot sink and root, you probably should keep this stepping pattern as part of your mobility plan as far as footwork goes. Sinking and rooting takes time and several methods.

[YouKnowWho]

Stepping behind and momentarily crossing the legs is used often in setting up throws usually prior to a twisting motion,

Sometime the "cross legs" should be replaced by a hop with quick spin. The more that you have trained, the less time that you will stay in "cross legs".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IseTFH7egwA&feature=youtu.be


I like to use cross kick as well, but when you use this kick, there is no reason your leg needs to be crossed when you land your foot back on the ground.

That's why the jumping kick is better. Not only 1 is better than 1,2, if you cross your legs when your body is in the air, you will have less risk.

[YouKnowWho]

It's risky to cross one leg in front of your other leg (as we have the same discussion in "The most controversial TCMA system"). The reason is simple. When you cross your leg

- behind your other leg, the distance between you and your opponent hasn't changed yet.
- in front of your other leg, the distance between you and your opponent is redefined.

If you have to cross one leg in front of your other leg, you will need to move your leg above and over the knee of your standing leg. This way, you won't give your opponent any chance to sweep you. I did raise this concern in Bagua circle walking. Of course if you train TCMA for health, you won't care much about this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFHoX6NKfVQ&feature=youtu.be

[MarathonTmatt]

I like to use cross kick as well, but when you use this kick, there is no reason your leg needs to be crossed when you land your foot back on the ground.

true, good point.. one could land in shi bu (empty stance), reverse bow stance, etc. I don't think I've ever landed in cross stance from the cross kick, actually, unless I was moving in to go for the upper gate (splitting/scissor hands).
So Mighty B. brought up a good point about using it as transitional for takedowns-- "drilling into the ground."

[Kellen Bassette]

I did raise this concern in Bagua circle walking.

Yeah...that's what got me thinking about it.... :p

[Kellen Bassette]

Stepping behind and momentarily crossing the legs is used often in setting up throws usually prior to a twisting motion, or it can be used with a lead leg side kick.


Lots of people like to use step behind sidekick for hitting bags, it feels (and is) very powerful...if you are far enough away you can almost run into it, driving the bag, or kicking shield holder way back. The trouble is, you can see this coming a mile away, it's hard to land step behind side kick on a good fighter.

IMO step up side kick is much better. (For those who don't know the difference, with step up, you slide your back foot to just behind your lead foot, then launch the kick.)
This method doesn't cover as much distance, but it closes range much less telegraphically than step behind SK and is still very powerful.

If you train step up SK instead of step behind SK, you will be able to use it without a big space between you and your opponent. If you want to get better, at SK skill, work on just picking up the leg and kicking with no step, and even slide back and SK....

[YouKnowWho]

IMO step up side kick is much better. (For those who don't know the difference, with step up, you slide your back foot to just behind your lead foot, then launch the kick.)

When you do it fast, it will become a jump kick. To me, the "step up" footwork is the most important footwork used in combat. When you "step up", the distance between you and your opponent hasn't changed yet. There is no risk involved. If the situation is not permitted, you can always step back that leg. It's a footwork that you don't need to commit yourself until you decide to do that final "jump".

[Kellen Bassette]

When you do it fast, it will become a jump kick. To me, the "step up" footwork is the most important footwork used in combat. When you "step up", the distance between you and your opponent hasn't changed yet. There is no risk involved. If the situation is not permitted, you can always step back that leg. It's a footwork that you don't need to commit yourself until you decide to do that final "jump".

I also believe this is very important footwork, the goal really isn't so much "step up" but place rear leg where lead leg was standing....

[Jimbo]

I also believe this is very important footwork, the goal really isn't so much "step up" but place rear leg where lead leg was standing....

I refer to that as replacement step. I's very deceptive if used with a setup. It also works with hand strikes, front kicks, etc.

[Kellen Bassette]

I refer to that as replacement step. I's very deceptive if used with a setup. It also works with hand strikes, front kicks, etc.

It's an all around great entry tactic.

[YouKnowWho]

the goal really isn't so much "step up" but place rear leg where lead leg was standing....

I'll call it to mark where your door axis (back leg) is so you will know exactly how far that your door (front leg) can swing.