Punching into the thin air

[YouKnowWho]

Can you truly be able to develop your powerful punch by "only" punching into the thin air?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LosS2vjmek

What's your opponent on this? Can you prove it, or dis-prove it?

[Lucas]

no, you cannot.

you can work on speed but without actual impact and learning how to support and fully utilize your bodies structure and issue force on contact, by actually hitting something, you will never learn to hit hard. not to mention moving, and resisting targets....

[TaichiMantis]

Can you truly be able to develop your powerful punch by "only" punching into the thin air?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LosS2vjmek

What's your opponent on this? Can you prove it, or dis-prove it?
And further..
Can you actually use your "powerful" punch without conditioning excercises and healing methods to prevent serious damage to yourself? Can you take a powerful punch from someone who has conditioned their "weapon"?
;)

[pazman]

It seems for taiji people, a fajin demonstration is an objective test of punching power.




In reality, it's not.

[David Jamieson]

Can you truly be able to develop your powerful punch by "only" punching into the thin air?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LosS2vjmek

What's your opponent on this? Can you prove it, or dis-prove it?

No. You cannot develop powerful punches by not hitting anything.
You require force feedback and resistance to be able to develop power.
Yes, I can prove it, but in words? No. Any physical truth has to be physically demonstrated.
People who think that air punching develops power have no power and little in the way of critical thinking skills.

[-N-]

Can you truly be able to develop your powerful punch by "only" punching into the thin air?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LosS2vjmek

What's your opponent on this? Can you prove it, or dis-prove it?

The body is a mechanical system. Fajin addresses the internal damping or friction of that system, and the delivery time.

For a given level of force, reducing internal friction and reducing the time over which the force is delivered, increases the amount of power that ultimately gets to the target.

If you only train the relaxed coordination, or you only train resistance, then you will not develop the full potential of your power.

Train both.

[SPJ]

Can you truly be able to develop your powerful punch by "only" punching into the thin air?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LosS2vjmek

What's your opponent on this? Can you prove it, or dis-prove it?

May be breathing in and out the right way.

Right body structure and right body movement.

Releasing the right power ?

May not be.

Xu Jin Ru Zhang Gong. Harness your power like drawing a bow.

Fa Jin Si Fang Jian. Express your power like releasing an arrow.

Without the bow and arrow, your hand moves alone do not mean anything.

Strength building and body conditioning are all needed as pointed out.

[YouKnowWho]

- Are we discouraging newer students from practicing here?
- Are we trying to tell the truth and prevent people from wasting their time?
- Should we let everybody to spend 50 years in "striking into the thin air" and let them finally realize that they should "strike on heavy bag" instead?
- If you can't develop your throwing skill by throwing an invisible opponent? What will make you think that you can develop your striking skill by striking an invisible opponent?

The older that I'm, the more questions that I have toward the TCMA training method.

[David Jamieson]

There's a right way and a wrong way to swing a hammer and you won't know which is true until you pound some nails.

Learning the shape is the idea of structure. Implementation is where learning occurs. The idea and principle can't manifest without practical application.

There's nothing wrong with teaching and helping to create the right structure.
There is something wrong with not teaching how to apply.

It's not discouraging to tell new students that martial arts involves hitting and more importantly being hit and that both need to be understood.

It's not like every lesson involves getting hit. But it is silly and antithetical to never get to experience that in a martial arts club.

[bawang]

Can you truly be able to develop your powerful punch by "only" punching into the thin air?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LosS2vjmek

What's your opponent on this? Can you prove it, or dis-prove it?

chen xiaowang lift weights. entire chen family lift weights.

[-N-]

- Should we let everybody to spend 50 years in "striking into the thin air" and let them finally realize that they should "strike on heavy bag" instead?

Don't be so quick to discount the striking air method.

Before I had a chance to set up a heavy bag, all my kicking was either in the air, or controlled on an opponent during sparring.

I went to get extra sparring practice with a karate group. I was the only TCMA guy there.

When we warmed up by holding shields and kicking each other, I let them have it full power.

Their blackbelt instructors asked me how I trained to have such powerful kicks.

I told them I just did lots and lots of kick combinations in the air.

They were very surprised.

They also had me lead a few of their classes afterwards.

[Jimbo]

-N- is making some good points. Why not do both? Striking the bag, air shields, pads, etc., is essential, but 'empty' practice also has its benefits. I will also add that, what if you go on a long trip where you can't get to a gym, hit a bag, spar, etc.? Of course, you can choose to practice nothing at all, in that case. But IMO, doing some basic skills and form work in the air is certainly better than doing nothing, and you don't need anything other than some space and comfortable clothing. I also find that doing air work aids in precision when actually hitting a target. Of course, YMMV.

[Syn7]

Shadow boxing is to develop speed and form. Strength and conditioning along with extensive bag and padwork give you a strong punch. You have to hit things to learn to hit things, it's just that simple. You won't develop acceptable density and such in the air. But, part of a good punch is body mechanics. So when you do both, you develop in a more rounded manner.

[Syn7]

Don't be so quick to discount the striking air method.

Before I had a chance to set up a heavy bag, all my kicking was either in the air, or controlled on an opponent during sparring.

I went to get extra sparring practice with a karate group. I was the only TCMA guy there.

When we warmed up by holding shields and kicking each other, I let them have it full power.

Their blackbelt instructors asked me how I trained to have such powerful kicks.

I told them I just did lots and lots of kick combinations in the air.

They were very surprised.

They also had me lead a few of their classes afterwards.

Right, and while you may not have been hitting things, your form was enough to outdo those who relied on brute force. Had you had a few years on the bag as well, you may have been kicking significantly harder.


We used to hit those carnival punching bag things that tell you how hard you hit. I had a friend who was pretty small and was always getting like a 3rd of what everyone else got. With like 5 minutes of explanation and demonstration on how to properly align a punch, he was outdoing guys bigger than him that were just forcing it. Not after practice, like right away. So of course practicing kicks in the air and developing good form is an asset, for sure.

[SoCo KungFu]

Buried somewhere on these boards lies a very long and very detailed post from TGY on why doing this type of training is not only not beneficial, but possibly detrimental in the long run. You might want to dig that one up.

[-N-]

Right, and while you may not have been hitting things, your form was enough to outdo those who relied on brute force. Had you had a few years on the bag as well, you may have been kicking significantly harder.

That's why I tell people to do both.

Though the blackbelts that were asking me didn't have just brute force. They were pretty skilled and had their own commercial schools and students and competed.

They thought I was BS'ing them when I told them I just kicked air.

I made sure they felt it though. I didn't want them going around saying that kung fu was flowery and weak.

They were pretty cool. They all would get excited and cheer when I sparred their blackbelts.

Later on, one of their students quit and came to train with me at the park instead. Not that I asked him to. I tried to discourage him. Kept telling him to think about and come back next week if he was serious. He kept coming back, and after three weeks I kind of had let him try the class.


We used to hit those carnival punching bag things that tell you how hard you hit. I had a friend who was pretty small and was always getting like a 3rd of what everyone else got. With like 5 minutes of explanation and demonstration on how to properly align a punch, he was outdoing guys bigger than him that were just forcing it. Not after practice, like right away. So of course practicing kicks in the air and developing good form is an asset, for sure.

Form and relaxed coordinated body mechanics. Most beginners have more power than they can use effectively. More often, I'm struggling to get them to relax so they can deliver their power.

I always have to tell them, "You're supposed to be fighting the other guy. Not your own self." and, "Well, at least you are getting a lot of exercise struggling like that..."

[YouKnowWho]

Of course most of the time, the truth is in the middle. When something is bending toward one direction (90% of the TCMA people strike into the thin air. Only 10% of the TCMA people may train on the heavy bag), in order to straight it up, you have to bend it toward the other direction first (over emphasize heavy bag training).

[Jimbo]

Of course most of the time, the truth is in the middle. When something is bending toward one direction (90% of the TCMA people strike into the thin air. Only 10% of the TCMA people may train on the heavy bag), in order to straight it up, you have to bend it toward the other direction first (over emphasize heavy bag training).

This is very true, and the principle of over-correcting can apply effectively to many aspects of training.

[Syn7]

Word!





I always have to tell them, "You're supposed to be fighting the other guy. Not your own self." and, "Well, at least you are getting a lot of exercise struggling like that..."

I always wondered at that quote that suggest a person is their own greatest opponent or whatever. That you can will yourself through anything. That's simply not always true.

Being pinned by a high level wrestler that is bigger than you, or being outclassed by a better striker isn't always about heart.


Anyways... equilibrium is your friend. ;)

[Hebrew Hammer]

The fabulous aspect of bag work and striking air, is that you remain undefeated and you will be lord of all you survey. Lifting weights is overrated.

[YouKnowWho]

a person is their own greatest opponent ...

I don't like that statement either. First, you will never have to fight against yourself. Second, even if "today's you" is better than "yesterday's you", if a 20 years old can still beat you up, the "today's you" is still very bad.

[Kevin73]

I think time should be spent on all three aspects,

1) Conditioning of the body/weapon
2) Air punching for proper form and delivery
3) Striking an object to get feedback and make proper adjustments

rinse and repeat.

One thing I have noticed about people who ONLY do striking on a heavy bag is that sometimes they "push" their techniques because they want the movement that they get from a bag and don't understand it.

One thing I have noticed about people who ONLY do air striking, sometimes they don't have good distancing or minor misalignments that don't mean much in the air but are very obvious when hitting something.

I prefer to have students learn the proper form first and really ingrain that before hitting an object because EVERY TIME, I have had someone try to hit the pads without really having a strong base from air punching, their form goes out the window as they just try to "hit hard" and end up winding up and throwing a punch like a person with no training at all.