Question the TCMA training methods

[YouKnowWho]

The "Punching into the thin air" thread make me think that there are other TCMA training methods that don't make sense. One is the “拳从腰出 - all punches should start from the waist". First the WC system doesn't follow this guideline. Second, it makes no sense when you have both arms on guard, you just don't have the luxury to pull your hand back to your waist and then punch out. If you will never punch from your waist, why do you want to train this way.

There are many other TCMA training methods that won't make sense. What do you think those may be? Your thought?

[-N-]

The "Punching into the thin air" thread make me think that there are other TCMA training methods that don't make sense. One is the “拳从腰出 - all punches should start from the waist". First the WC system doesn't follow this guideline. Second, it makes no sense when you have both arms on guard, you just don't have the luxury to pull your hand back to your waist and then punch out. If you will never punch from your waist, why do you want to train this way.

There are many other TCMA training methods that won't make sense. What do you think those may be? Your thought?

Maybe the question should be, "What TCMA training method don't you understand?"

"TCMA doesn't make sense" is like when students blame the teacher for keeping secrets from them. Or when they say this or that is no good because they can't figure out how to makeit work. If it doesn't work, it's never their fault... always someone else's.

[-N-]

If you will never punch from your waist, why do you want to train this way.


in order to straight it up, you have to bend it toward the other direction first.


This is very true, and the principle of over-correcting can apply effectively to many aspects of training.

To force people to develop the correct body alignment so they can have power when not punching from the waist.

[YouKnowWho]

To force people to develop the correct body alignment so they can have power when not punching from the waist.

If we treat "punching from the waist" as the basic level training, there should be a clear intermediate level training and advance level training after that. As far as I know, even the most advance level longfist form that still require "punching from the waist".

I can see a good reason to train how to punch from waist when you are 20 years old. I just don't see a good reason that you still have to punch from your waist when you are 80 years old.

Boxers don't punch from the waist. We just can't say that they don't have good body alignment. I think good body alignment can still be trained by punching from the on guard position.

http://imageshack.us/a/img580/1283/jvxd.jpg

It's funny for me as a longfist lover to be in favor of the boxing punching method. To me, good training method is more important than "loyalty to my style".

If you can evolve your

- roundhouse kick to be the MT roundhouse kick,
- side kick to be the TKD side kick,

I see no reason why you can't evolve your

- leading arm punch to be the boxing jab,
- back arm punch to be the boxing cross.

If you are a Sanda/Sanshou coach, you have to find the best training method for your guys. You just can't put style restriction on them and tell them that your style don't do this way.

[-N-]

If we treat "punching from the waist" as the basic level training, there should be a clear intermediate level training and advance level training after that. As far as I know, even the most advance level longfist form that still require "punching from the waist".

There is intermediate and advanced, but they don't necessarily show up in the forms. And you have to understand the "language" of the form to know what it really is trying to teach. Or else it will be like looking at a calligraphy painting and complaining that it doesn't look like a real mountain.

When you watched my teacher in SF, you saw the advanced applications that he extracted from the forms. He explained the difference between application and even advanced forms. In his final years, he was very applications focused in his teaching. When he finally got to teaching an advanced form, he would tell us, "You already know the applications from this form. I taught you years ago."


I can see a good reason to train how to punch from waist when you are 20 years old. I just don't see a good reason that you still have to punch from your waist when you are 80 years old.

Good for range of motion to keep the body flexible.



Boxers don't punch from the waist. We just can't say that they don't have good body alignment. I think good body alignment can still be trained by punching from the on guard position.

Some have better alignment than others. Some have tighter frame and cleaner movements than others.


It's funny for me as a longfist lover to be in favor of the boxing punching method. To me, good training method is more important than "loyalty to my original style".

Maybe boxing is the advanced interpretation of longfist basics :)

Your teacher's classmate, Jiang Hao Quan, taught shaolin, tai chi, bagua, hsing yi, boxing, shuai chiao, all at the same time. He saw no conflict and considered them all complementary.

My classmate and I have no problem to show the students the commonalities across different methods. To some people, they are very surprised to see the same principles in Mantis, Tai Chi, and western boxing.

Last week I pointed out an "advanced" leg and waist power detail to a student learning Gung Lik Kuen.

My classmate pointed out in addition, the timing of the foot turn to coordinate with the rest of the power. All together, the body mechanics was the same spiral energy that is in Tai Chi. And the point for the students even to learn Gung Lik Kuen was for them to have some fundamentals in place for Mantis.

[RenDaHai]

The vast majority of times it is simply a misunderstanding of principles.

The other day everyone thought the long tassle on a sword was useless, simply because they don't understand its use. When you understand suddenly you see it is a powerful weapon.

'Quan cong yao chu' is not a universal principle in TCMA. If it exists in your style it means that the power in the fist comes out from the waist turning. Long fist is 'Tong bei' meaning the back is in line with the line of the punch, this requires an extreme waist turn.

There are overriding principes, for example 'Quan da yi tiao xian' literally 'Punch in a straight line'. Contrary to popular belief this does NOT mean do straight punches. Rather it means punch directly from where your fist happens to be at the time to the target. Often this is not a straight punch since to do so requires a curved path.

Most older systems use the general idea 'Quan bu li xin' that is fist stays near the heart. When doing the classic punch the other fist pulls back to chest, not to waist. This is more powerful. The palm comes back to the side because its power is vertical (Zhang bu li lei). Punching this way with 'tong bei' there is enough power to give yourself whiplash. It is a good way to strike but doesn't have to be used this way our of necessity. It does train you to have a very flexible waist and to turn into punches. Also whenever you punch from the guard it is easily seen. Hiding your fist with your body is not ridiculous. Add to this pulling your opponent back with the withdrawing hand.... Pulling your fist do your body teaches you the limit. Here is the maximum power. Pulling it back even further does not add any power, it just slows it down.

[SavvySavage]

To force people to develop the correct body alignment so they can have power when not punching from the waist.

It would be more efficient to hit a bag given the time we have to train daily with all out modern responsibilities.

[MightyB]

TCMA requires a belief in the underlying principles and techniques which in turn means giving time to develop the necessary skills to use it.

If you don't have belief in the underlying principles and techniques - get out, leave, quit wasting your and our time.

That being said, are there silly practices within the TCMAs? Yes, but you really have to get to the core of the principles behind those practices before you can jump to the end result and say skip the beginning.

[Paul T England]

How about we say power should come from the waist!

If you imagine the link from elbow to waist then wing chun conforms.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[David Jamieson]

One type of power or ging can come from the waist.
Some borrow power from the earth.

[Lucas]

punching from the waist only becomes an issue if the majority of your punching is from doing forms. (and maybe some drills i gues...)

when you are not doing forms, you should not be punching from the waist.

the form is that way simply to maintain the form itself and establish structure. at this point, in regards to punching from the waist in form, it just depends on how much of a traditionalist you are.

are you ok to change your form to remove punching from the waist?

[TenTigers]

The "Punching into the thin air" thread make me think that there are other TCMA training methods that don't make sense. One is the “拳从腰出 - all punches should start from the waist". First the WC system doesn't follow this guideline. Second, it makes no sense when you have both arms on guard, you just don't have the luxury to pull your hand back to your waist and then punch out. If you will never punch from your waist, why do you want to train this way.

There are many other TCMA training methods that won't make sense. What do you think those may be? Your thought?
when you connect internally to the spiraling power that starts from the waist and core, then all your punches-including WC punches do indeed start from the waist.
There is no need to pull the hand back to the waist when the awareness of the internal workings are in place.

Punching the air, or standing in ma bo and throwing ping choy? What value does it have?
Of course you wouldn't fight from this stance, for obvious reasons-even if you practice Juko-Kai's Combat Ki, or can draw your testicles up into your body. So why practice this at all?
Thus sayeth the so-called,"modern thinker."
It is an isolation move, specifically designed to develop proper structure in the punching movement-to focus on alignment-elbow behind the fist, arm brushing the body to maintain that position, turn the punch over at the end.
The next stage is to practice the punch while shifting the stance from ma-bo to gung-bo, thus engaging the body to develop the mind/body connection, of power from the feet-thhough the legs, governed by the waist and expressed through the hands.
Then, to apply these principles and awareness to the 'fighting stance' with the hands in a guarding position-BUT to be able to maintain the proper alignments.

Speaking of the jab, look at the first line in tan-tuie. Then compare it to Dempsey's drop-step lead/stiff jolt, (Bruce Lee's straight blast) It is the same theory; drop the weight into the strike, alignment from fist through arm/shoulder, connect the entire body into the strike.

If you only strike the heavybag, you are not saving time, you are preventing yourself from developing speed and quickness. The resitance of the bag will develop solid striking power, and penetration. Punching air-with no resistance will develop quickness and explosive movement. You need to combine both.
Just hitting the bag will make you slow, just hitting air will make you less powerful.
Also, if your alignment is off, you can injure yourself.

Is the boxer's jab a further development? I have my doubts.
First of all, due to the fact that you wear padded gloves, the game has changed. Your guard is different. Tighter, relying on the padded gloves to absorb impact.
The chin is tucked into the lead shoulder, which is slightly raised, as well as the other shoulder, to provide greater protection of the head/jaw.
This changes the alignment of the body/shoulders/elbow, which is why boxers punch with fei jang.
It's a completely different structure.
I forsee that eventually MMAists will find that traditional methods will start to be employed. If your hands are held further out, and you need to start intercepting strikes rather than covering, combined with the smaller mma gloves, you will need to adapt your methods.

[TaichiMantis]

When you watched my teacher in SF, you saw the advanced applications that he extracted from the forms. He explained the difference between application and even advanced forms. In his final years, he was very applications focused in his teaching. When he finally got to teaching an advanced form, he would tell us, "You already know the applications from this form. I taught you years ago."

Sounds like my Sifu.

Also, my understanding of waist punch is like RDH. Trying to find and use "Chinese waist" is not always consistent for me...sadly:( At 80 years old, Sifu Ly Hoa Yen definitely practices this and will call you out with "No powa! Body move arms!" :o

[Alex Córdoba]

The "Punching into the thin air" thread make me think that there are other TCMA training methods that don't make sense. One is the “拳从腰出 - all punches should start from the waist". First the WC system doesn't follow this guideline.

Maybe WC is not a good example.

[YouKnowWho]

Maybe WC is not a good example.

- Longfist punches from the waist.
- WC punches from the center of the chest.
- Taiji punches from the heart.
- Zimen punches from next to your upper legs where you drop your hands.
- Boxing punches from on guard.
- ...

IMO, all different training methods should be included in the TCMA forms of "every" styles. Those style difference just make no sense to me.

[Jimbo]

- Longfist punches from the waist.
- WC punches from the center of the chest.
- Taiji punches from the heart.
- Zimen punches from next to your upper legs where you drop your hands.
- Boxing punches from on guard.
- ...

IMO, all different training methods should be included in the TCMA forms of "every" styles. Those style difference just make no sense to me.

In the CLF I train, there are punches/strikes from the waist, from the chest, from side of head, and from wherever the hands happen to be. Obviously you aren't expected to punch from the waist under fire. We also train punching combinations from a high guard position. Although I still train forms that have punches from the waist, I have never once put my fist to my waist to punch out of habit during sparring.

[TenTigers]

- Longfist punches from the waist.
- WC punches from the center of the chest.
.
WC punches from their guard.
In certain forms training, the punches come from the chest, again, as an isolation movement-for training alignment.
The expression in WC is that the punch comes from the heart-this is a figurative term.